Transcript
Zain
0:02
This is a strategist episode one. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, and no other one person. Hey, guy. How you doing?
Zain
0:12
Yeah, I said, Hey, guy. Hey,
Zain
0:15
Stephen Carter has decided to take his per diem and go to the shops by the creek.
Zain
0:21
He's not joining us, Corey,
Zain
0:24
because there's a bunch of guys that look like I'm all in one story. He's got to go. He's got to go in.
Corey
0:30
this is literally the first time i think that he's missed an episode he has he has done this show high on pain medication he has done this show like the day of being fired and he is not doing the show tonight should
Corey
0:48
we be worried about that dan
Zain
0:51
dan flashes man it just it just this is the gravitational pull of dan flashes he's crazy you know carter this is true if we audit carter's history on the show it's actually quite a uh perfect attendance record up until this point that's
Zain
1:04
right he's done the show when he shouldn't have which is i don't know that entire stretch
Corey
1:09
when he was chief of staff to
Zain
1:10
do you remember that i do yeah
Zain
1:14
he uh he tried to get that written into his contract uh
Zain
1:18
uh don't think he got it written into his contract but
Zain
1:21
uh he's done it of course high on pain medications um when
Zain
1:27
when he's when he's injured himself uh he's delayed episodes in the past but he's never done this which is
Zain
1:33
which is just saying you know what you guys go at it and you know what what cory um i'm
Zain
1:37
i'm still not ready to join the ranks i'll be so i'll still be the host so this show is called the strategist it's you it's episode one all the pressure's on you i get to just chill here and watch thursday night football uh while casually tuning in to the uh look and listen uh lecture series of cory hogan the the one man ted talk that is going to be this episode well
Corey
1:58
well i always felt that steven carter was our net um
Corey
2:01
um because no matter how much we fell there was always something below us offering a lesser quality and in that sense i mean he was in that i mean it in a different sense than most people do
Zain
2:13
yeah no no it's good it's like like in the flare airline sense right like if you're if you're like they're like oh my god there's there's something below us that's grounded while we take Even two hours late, but they're going to be five hours late, 10 hours late. They're not going to get clearance to leave. They barely have planes. And so that's who Stephen Carter was to us, Corey.
Zain
2:32
so here's what we're going to do. We're just going to run through a bunch of topics. We're going to talk about a bunch of shit. We'll see where it goes, because it's not like nothing has happened. I want to start here.
Zain
2:41
Fuck, man. I can't get over how
Zain
2:44
how obsessed the media is with Pierre Pauliev v. Justin Trudeau in question period. CBC had a PNP special that they brought like panelists in being like, oh, this fucking showdown. Here's what's
Zain
2:56
on. Here's what's going to happen. I've been on some media last week. It's been all that the Ottawa-centric media want to talk about.
Zain
3:04
This almost feels like an overrated, underrated question, but i think i know the answer it's fucking overrated but
Zain
3:09
but how overrated cory are you just going to rebuff the entire idea that
Corey
3:12
that it's overrated it's so deeply overrated i i could never rebuff it i want here's the thing there's a couple of different things i want to say on this particular matter the first is the media lives on conflict that's that's not a cynical comment that's not a shock that's that's one of the four c's when you're talking about what's It's newsworthy, right? You know, conflict, controversy, and
Corey
3:37
I'm sorry, what are the other two? Well, you know what? I kind of forget. Yeah, yeah.
Corey
3:42
You kind of forget?
Zain
3:43
Okay, you could have easily
Corey
3:45
if Carter was here, what
Zain
3:46
what would he have said? Carter would have been like, they got
Corey
3:49
got to pay more for that. They
Zain
3:50
They got to pay more
Zain
3:51
more for that. Yeah,
Zain
3:52
You know, Zane, the other two Cs come
Zain
3:55
come after the first two. You've got to master the first two before I can give you the other two. As
Corey
3:59
As I'm always saying, you
Corey
4:01
you got to pay for the second two
Corey
4:02
two Cs, which is the third and fourth C. I know that's confusing, actually, as I say that out there.
Corey
4:09
drive right past that.
Corey
4:10
Yeah, the other thing is we've seen how ineffectual drama and question period is in changing the overall debate tone and tenor. Probably the best leader of the official opposition we've ever had from
Zain
4:24
Volcaire. Exactly. You know what's funny? I talked to Volcaire about this on air. like we were on a show together and we're talking about question period i'm like why are you asking me tom is sitting right beside me and he's not prime minister of this country like
Corey
4:38
know each other well yeah right
Zain
4:39
right and tom was like i pretty much agree he's like i think we soften the ground with harper supporters but fuck man like i'm not prime minister of canada yeah
Zain
4:48
yeah i'm doing this radio show right
Corey
4:51
well and look i think that there is no doubt about it that what happens in the house can affect swagger on the hill and maybe that bleeds over into other areas and i think that's actually part
Corey
5:02
of the story of 2015 although i don't think it's the biggest part okay but
Corey
5:06
but um certainly nobody's
Corey
5:10
nobody's watching it right besides the media and even when the media is reporting on how great they're doing in question period i think the public largely says oh who cares and when you think about question period as a as a delivery mechanism very poor marks nobody's watching it when you think about it as an opportunity to refine questions and see what works very
Corey
5:30
very poor because the audience in the house is so wonkish and tuned in and totally different from the audience outside of the house
Zain
5:37
house have you found ever ever ever ever you know we talk about clippable right we talk about packageable have
Zain
5:43
have you ever found a clip from
Zain
5:45
from question period having the resonance that a a produced
Zain
5:49
produced video would or even a selfie video deal with. I'm really curious. We talk about it all the time being like, no, no, we're focusing so much energy on it because we can nail it with a clip. Have you ever seen a QP clip go viral and actually penetrate or have the ability to penetrate in your mind?
Corey
6:06
I don't know if I could remember one that was just a perfect encapsulation. I'm such a good fighter, I got it. I can think of times where the government just... Usually
Corey
6:15
Usually when there's a clip, when I think of that, it's more More like somebody really fucked up, they swore or they did something in question period. Which we've seen before. Yeah. And maybe we'll even talk about a version of that today. And
Corey
6:27
And then the other version is news was broken. What I think really talented oppositions can do is when the house comes back, if they're sitting on some powder, that's the time that they start loading it and firing it.
Corey
6:41
And that can really all of a sudden draw eyeballs in a big way. Like all of a sudden I'm, you know, Mr. Speaker, I just heard about issue X and issue X is now out there. And when is the minister going to come clean about the fact that his department was trying to cover this up or something?
Corey
6:58
Whatever the matter might be, because then the
Corey
7:01
the QP books that are prepared for the government, they don't work, right? It's something totally new. So they look at each other like, what the fuck is happening here? here. And so it's a bad moment for government. And it's a good moment for the person who delivered it because that becomes the thing on the evening news when the news was broken.
Zain
7:17
Can I ask you a question that might seem, it's adjacent, but I find it interesting. At some point when your books are useless, when your guide that the staff present are useless, your tree, they're like, if they say this, you say this, then we were about, yeah.
Corey
7:31
Have you ever, From
Zain
7:35
do MPs get training for this sort of thing? Have you ever seen MPs take, this is my wild question, media training, improv training? And what does that look like? Have you delivered any of it?
Corey
7:47
How do you get these people to... Because it's
Zain
7:51
to be able to answer these questions, to do the bridging and flagging as we talk about in our consultant lives. But tell me about that. Yeah.
Corey
7:59
Yeah. So I guess I've probably done it for MLAs back in my political days when I was the executive director of a party.
Corey
8:07
I've certainly done it for cabinet members. I've done lots of media training for cabinet members over time. That's different, right? They're government and I worked for the government. And so it was more about
Corey
8:18
about that. that. But the
Corey
8:19
the training is exactly what you would think it would be. It's
Corey
8:23
It's somebody who has experience in this and generally experienced training, not just experience in dealing with the media. Although you get both who
Corey
8:31
who are a party faithful. When we're talking about the MPs or the MLAs, they come into the room and
Corey
8:38
and they give a safe space where these skills can be practiced, but it's the same skills that I would practice with corporate clients. The ability to bridge away from a topic you don't want to talk about. The ability to flag the important information that's in what you're saying. And what is, I think, interesting about question period and actually why I was always a bit cynical about the binders is you actually don't need a binder at all to get through question period. You really don't, right? You just need to talk in generalities and around it. As was famously said, it's called question period, not answer period. The answers are up to the government. and they can choose whatever it is but
Corey
9:19
yeah everybody trains on it right because there is a sense that if you can do these things well you'll be rewarded and pushed up higher in the limelight training is super common yeah yeah
Zain
9:31
tell me about um in this particular moment we find ourselves pierre versus trudeau what warning would you have for team polyev because they have been itching for this sort of like pugilistic he's back at it the firebrand you're just going to be like Like, this guy's a fucking killer in
Zain
9:47
in parliament. Just wait. Like, is there any warning you would have for their team? And what would it be?
Corey
9:55
We remember the moments in QP when people fuck up. We don't remember the moments in QP when somebody wins. And so if you're trying really hard to make your strategy about QP or to deliver those blows, just know that the things we've already talked about, people don't watch it.
Corey
10:12
It's a different audience and different media as a result. and um and
Corey
10:16
and it just doesn't matter as much as you think it does and you know i've said this before on this show and carter has backed me up i can make carter say whatever i want because he's not
Corey
10:27
we've both talked about how when you're underneath the dome in a legislature or in the house of commons it just feels so important no
Corey
10:36
no matter what you're doing no matter how few people are paying attention and
Corey
10:39
and that can be quite seductive and so when you're winning in an avenue that feels that important it's hard not to feel like you're just winning but
Corey
10:45
but it is ultimately something
Corey
10:47
something that only a small group of people is really going to care about the sports fans in politics the ones who are watching the back and forth yeah
Corey
10:54
but those ones usually have their sides drawn the middle that you need to reach and or
Corey
10:58
or whatever you want to say that the movable voters that you need to reach if you don't want to talk about it in terms of middle
Corey
11:05
they're not watching qp they don't give a shit if you can give a lawyerly cross-examination in qp yeah
Zain
11:12
me about trudeau do you feel like okay
Zain
11:16
you could probably everything we've just talked about all sounds like good news for trudeau right it
Zain
11:20
doesn't really matter you know if the guy wants to be pugilistic let him shadow box he might fuck up but
Zain
11:26
but there's probably a warning sign for trudeau here like this guy's ready for a fight there's his team seems to be aligned behind him what risk or what message would you kind of want to ensure that team trudeau knows uh
Zain
11:37
regarding question period caveated
Zain
11:39
caveated with everything we've just said about it's important all that sort of stuff well
Corey
11:44
well in some ways it's it's some of the same messaging i'd give poly f which is remember it doesn't matter that much so don't feel like you need to win in qp either and i actually kind of saw the liberals saying hey did you see christia freeland taking pierre poly have to task on bitcoin yeah
Corey
12:00
okay and i wouldn't expect you not to take him to task if you're lobbed softballs, but it's not where you need to be putting your efforts either. And by all means, pin him down in the house, get him thinking that that's where his efforts have to be. But the liberals can't fall in the trap of thinking, well, he's getting the best of us in QP, so we got to try harder in QP. And in fact, probably the warning for Justin Trudeau is you've got to make sure you're reinforcing that with all of your MPs, both
Corey
12:27
both for your own self-protection, but also so they don't lose the plot, which is
Corey
12:32
We take QP seriously. We're a government that believes in accountability. We will answer the questions, but we're not interested in the bullshit theater beyond our duty as parliamentarians. And we are certainly not going to invest more time and effort into it than it deserves.
Corey
12:49
He wants to win in the house, that's fine. We're going to win in the streets. And winning in the streets is what we've got all focus on now as MPs of this caucus. And that's the kind of message that I would be talking about.
Corey
13:00
It's one of those all warfare is based on asymmetry things.
Corey
13:04
Go where you're strong, not where you're weak. Don't be trying to be the best lawyerly defender in the house. That's just not you, Justin Trudeau.
Corey
13:13
Go out there and find somewhere else to fight.
Zain
13:16
Can I talk about a lawyerly defender in the sense that, you know, he probably sees himself, well, as a lawyer prior to politics, a defender of the working man. Can I talk to you about Jagmeet Singh for a bit? Sure, I want. So, OK,
Zain
13:29
OK, there's many things to talk about the dental care stuff that that has been passed and taking credit on it. But I think the main one from a political perspective is this real interesting tension that has been put out there to say, did
Zain
13:40
did you see how Pierre Polyev has been courting younger voters? This is a nightmare scenario for Jagmeet Singh. Have you heard this? Yeah. Are you buying that? Like, are you because we know that. OK, so let me kind of make the case very loosely for both to
Zain
13:53
to buy it and maybe not to buy it, to buy it. The orange-blue shift is real, right? The orange-blue shift is real. We've seen it in the past. Does it exist with these youth voters? We don't know. We also know that younger people are more attracted to movements, perhaps, than electoral politics. There's evidence for that. Pew and other places. Pierre, is he creating a movement maybe against it? Young people don't vote. It doesn't matter. It's just a talking point to keep the story alive, to perhaps make Jagmeet Singh put resources where he doesn't require. What do you think of this, this concept that young people surprisingly supported Pierre more than people would have thought in this leadership? And now that's a big,
Zain
14:34
big, you know, danger sign or an issue for Jagmeet Singh and the NDP.
Corey
14:41
You know, I think when
Corey
14:43
when you get to my age, which is my 40s, it's
Corey
14:48
it's very easy to be like, there's something wrong with the next generation, right? The kids aren't all right. There's a problem here. And so I'm
Corey
14:56
I'm very nervously stepping into what I'm about to say next. But there is something a little worth
Corey
15:03
worth noting, maybe even a little problematic. and and maybe depending i think it's that's not even a conservative liberal lens that's saying
Corey
15:13
what's what's going on here one of them is youth
Corey
15:15
youth unemployment and youth unemployment very high we saw
Corey
15:20
saw scott galloway earlier this week we were talking about some demographic data that was tweeted about um you
Corey
15:27
you know the number of single men far exceeds the number of single women and And then the number of very old single women exceeds the number of old single men.
Corey
15:37
And we've kind of got this angry young man brigade thing going on. Yes.
Corey
15:43
systemically, one might argue.
Corey
15:43
Can't find a job, can't get laid, right? And perhaps being constantly radicalized
Zain
15:48
radicalized through their algorithms on their phone and kind of being
Zain
15:53
into maybe a hole in a sense. Absolutely.
Corey
15:54
Absolutely. So they're looking for solutions. And I'm not talking about everybody. And I'm not even talking about most. I'm talking about a growing small segment at this particular moment. I wouldn't want to be deeply misunderstood on this point.
Corey
16:07
we do know from history, that's kind of a recipe for extreme solutions and easy solutions and trying to find something that's going to shake up the order because the order sure as fuck is not working for you. and
Corey
16:19
it's not that surprising to me that uh the left would be losing its stranglehold on
Corey
16:26
youth because the youth are not getting the outcomes they want uh
Corey
16:31
uh not everybody not by and large you know what like this this is so multifaceted
Corey
16:35
multifaceted i'm making broad statements here but there there is some some very concerning things that you have to raise your eyebrows and say what that what um what's the solution here um
Corey
16:45
um because you can't afford to buy home yeah
Corey
16:50
uh you are facing down perhaps the literal well again
Corey
16:54
again i'm using too extreme language but the climate crisis is enormous and concerning can't
Corey
17:00
can't find a job all
Corey
17:02
all of this is just leading into bad places and i just think we need to think a little bit more about that and be a little bit bit less protective of the baby boomers generationally immense
Corey
17:13
much more concerned with how are we leveling up everybody uh in in younger demographics and disadvantaged demographics if
Zain
17:20
if you're running the ndp right now cory are
Zain
17:22
are you are you saying fuck it we need a new leader or is this redeemable in your mind like they're they're a party that that has given a lot of rope to jagmeet singh like a lot of rope one might argue yeah uh right Right. And and even the deal that he made with Trudeau, it wasn't like it was universally celebrated within the NDP. Some ultimately
Zain
17:40
ultimately said that this is the end of us. Right. It's the slow death of us, but it's the death of us in some ways to kind of add to the to the extreme language.
Zain
17:49
Like, are you are you feeling like, you know, with the youth vote, with labor, because, you know, peer is going to come after labor, labor, kind of like Doug Ford did in Ontario, trying to get, you know, some of the private unions to show up for him in an unprecedented. I put that in air quotes way. What
Zain
18:05
What are you thinking right now? What is your assessment of how things are shaking out as it relates to your leadership if you're heading up the NDP right now?
Corey
18:14
Well, arguably, he's also delivered a lot more for the NDP than most recent leaders. It's an interesting tension,
Zain
18:21
tension, isn't it? Because
Corey
18:22
Because it's like what
Zain
18:22
what he's delivered using perhaps not getting the credit for it, but also perhaps losing some political ground for what he's had to deliver in a sense. Oh,
Corey
18:32
Oh, for sure. And I
Corey
18:34
I don't think anybody knows how this is going to play out. I haven't seen like
Corey
18:38
like a precipitous drop for the NDP in the polls. They continue to languish around 19% in most of the polling that I've seen. In fact,
Zain
18:45
fact, he's in the 20s in some of the recent, just like 20 to 24. And it's kind of stayed stable in certain cases.
Corey
18:52
And that's not necessarily something that tells me that the liberals are getting all of the credit it for the deal. And maybe in many ways, the deal reflects what Canadians were always kind of hoping would happen. We certainly know there's a lot more people willing to shift between Liberal and NDP than basically any other two parties that you could pick along
Corey
19:11
along the way. That's obviously also what concerns the NDP stalwarts who are not so enthusiastic about the deal. No question about that there.
Corey
19:20
I guess I'm saying that because I don't know, do we actually think the NDP's big big problem right now is their leader i'm maybe
Corey
19:28
maybe maybe they're not he's you know i will say this singh is not in the debate like he's not no
Corey
19:34
no he isn't no he isn't especially
Zain
19:36
especially on cost of living and other issues where you'd expect him to be on yeah
Corey
19:40
yeah um and so maybe there's something for that but there's also the reality that the
Corey
19:45
the conservatives just finished a leadership race of course everybody was talking about them for the last six months yeah
Corey
19:51
bruto's the prime minister of course everybody's talking about him. Might be a little too early to call that game, but I do think that Singh can't sit on his laurels and just wait. It was super interesting to see the NDP come after the conservatives. It does tell you that there's a bit of concern that maybe they are at
Corey
20:08
at risk of losing voting demographics, but way
Corey
20:11
way too early to call that game.
Zain
20:14
Okay. I want to move on to something else also. Okay. This is associate federal politics. You talked about it earlier. earlier, you alluded to it earlier, question period. Can
Zain
20:22
Can we talk about this thing with Garnet Genuis and Dale Smith, the journalist? Have you heard about
Zain
20:29
be like a two-hour episode. Honestly, this incident is on its own interesting, but even beyond that, I think brings up some really interesting topics and fascinating topics around the political discourse. Here's what ends up happening. Garnet Genuis, I believe it was yesterday stands up uh in the house um and starts using uh queen while while asking justin trudeau about inflation i say queen the band right he uses lyrics for bohemian rhapsody he tries to make like a quasi connection to inflation bohemian rhapsody the best thing to say is go find it online uh it's interesting for two reasons number one to see the amount of conviction Garnet Genuis has, and I know Garnet, Alberta MP. He's been like this since he was a teenager. This is exactly who he is. He has always been. This is the same guy, by the way, who's released a book that you can find on Amazon, which is his features of first year as an MP. It's an exhilarating read.
Zain
21:32
But Garnet kind of delivers this impassioned, let's just say, over
Zain
21:35
over the top, right? Like question that he asks, which is ultimately like a performance. It's interesting for watching just for the content uh also interesting uh and going out on social media is michelle rample's reaction who's sitting right behind him many speculating that she is quiet quitting in that clip but i will i'll get into that later so that's what guarded genius does this big song and dance asking just intruder about inflation dale smith who's an independent journalist part of the parliamentary press gallery tweets the following i'm going to read it out genius tries to include lyrics from bohemian rhapsody in this question and i cannot adequately adequately tell you how lame it is okay
Zain
22:14
okay if the treat stopped there i think it would be fine but he continues with one final sentence when horses are this lame you shoot them yeah
Corey
22:22
cory do you want
Zain
22:23
want to react to this and then we can react to what garnet has kind of said um mp genuis has said in terms of um
Zain
22:31
how he feels unsafe and and and would like this individual removed and now there's a growing call for that but talk to me about the tweet overall uh
Zain
22:38
uh you know so i mean
Corey
22:41
mean on content who could who could disagree it was it was a pretty cringe clip i mean he even had yeah one
Corey
22:49
one of his own mps behind him not looking very enthused about it and
Corey
22:53
and then uh then there's style and he should have known better and he should have stopped one before and said you know the
Corey
23:00
the horse is this lame you shoot them. He could have even gone, a horse this lame usually ends up at the glue factory. And that would have continued the metaphor, I think, in a way that would be less objectionable. But at this particular moment in time, it's
Corey
23:14
it's really tough to use language about shooting in particular. You got to keep in mind, Parliament even had a shooter in the not too distant past, right? Yeah,
Corey
23:24
And get like a total pass on that. And I do think it's absolutely a fair comment to say, If this had been reversed, and if it was Ezra Levant saying, if Christopher Freeland was so lame, like normally a horse that lame, you'd shoot, a
Corey
23:39
a lot of people would be lighting their hair on fire. I think in general, metaphors that say, you
Corey
23:44
you shoot something that's this bad, and this bad as a human being, and a public figure is not smart. It's not a good idea. And I
Corey
23:53
I think he shouldn't have done it. I think that's the bottom line. That's sort of like the most foundational thing I'll say.
Corey
24:00
I can understand how it happened because let's face it, metaphors about shooting and war are pretty commonplace,
Corey
24:09
commonplace, one might say. Yeah. I mean, we talk about war rooms. We talk about air war, even the word campaign that comes from a military exercise. And we use these metaphors so loosely and we don't think so much about them. basically war on sports is where all of our political metaphors come from and
Corey
24:27
and uh and sometimes you just sort of slip into these grand statements of language but i
Corey
24:32
i so i can understand that i
Corey
24:35
i don't condone it and i i don't think that's a pass and i think what would have been smart was to immediately pull it down and say you know what that was that was offside i i was using rhetorical flourish i absolutely understand why people would be opposed to that i'm out um
Corey
24:50
um and very quickly doing so the idea though that garnett doesn't feel safe and that garnett wants this individual taken out of uh the parliamentary gallery is fucking
Corey
25:05
fucking wild right i mean i think i
Corey
25:09
i think he's a he's over swinging a bit on that one and uh and while i sort of condemn the comments as they were delivered because of where we are in political discourse why
Corey
25:19
why is why is it wild though cory
Zain
25:20
cory like tell me why why is it wild like i i saw carter tweet about this so i think he's with you he's like for fuck's sake this is an overreach by god why is it wild like walk
Corey
25:29
walk me through this well
Corey
25:29
well because it implies that he's somehow um
Corey
25:34
worried for his own safety right or or that like we need to send a strong signal maybe that this is just not appropriate discourse agree with the strong signal do we actually think that pulling a reporter out of out of parliament is the right strong signal there i i i'm not i'm
Corey
25:51
i'm not convinced it is and i keep trying to pull myself back to the metaphor like if ezra levant did this yeah
Corey
25:56
about christia freeland how would i feel and
Corey
25:58
and i think even you know in that case even if we're
Zain
26:03
we're like i need ezra removed yeah
Corey
26:05
yeah i would say that's too much i would say that's too much leave it to the press gallery censure him for sure but the the The idea that you would remove a reporter that has to go through metal detectors. I don't actually know if the reporters have to go through metal detectors. I suspect they don't. But general population going in has to go through metal detectors. I don't believe that Garnett feels he's actually at risk here. And I think that the signal he's trying to send.
Corey
26:33
understand sending signals, but I think freedom of the press means a little bit too.
Corey
26:37
too. And you've got to sort of balance those things out. And at the end of the day, you
Corey
26:41
you sometimes have to put up with some odious behavior for your greater principles. And this, to me, would fall under that category.
Zain
26:50
You know, I want to get into just a slight, Brad, I want to do this when Carter's here too at some point. But there
Zain
26:55
there is something to be said about the level of discourse on
Zain
26:58
on all sides, right? Like this was a tweet by a journalist. We also have rage farming by political parties and candidates. We'll talk about what rage farming is, but ultimately going back to their email base and being like, this fucking crazy thing happened. Donate, give us your time, give us your money,
Corey
27:15
money, give us something.
Zain
27:17
And then you're, of course, adding and layering on the toxicity online on Twitter and other places. You know, we've got Sambot and other studies that have kind of talked about the noxious level of discourse online. And then let's layer on top of that the emails and the messages and the DMs that journalists specifically, and I'd say more particularly, female and BIPOC journalists have received in their DMs and email. Now, what's
Zain
27:44
what's going on here, Corey? Because it seems like there's no one actor to blame, that everyone is either leaning into it. Hope that isn't a bit of an overreach, not to say to the same degree, but
Zain
27:56
but everyone's kind of part of the pie here in a sense.
Corey
28:01
Yeah, well, but you know, it's interesting you say that. So let's just take Dale Smith's comment here.
Corey
28:07
And can I just add one thing on Dale Smith,
Zain
28:08
Smith, just before you jump into it?
Zain
28:10
He doubled down, like he used a political tactic on this. This is what I think is really interesting, because
Corey
28:14
because in a blog post,
Zain
28:15
post, he said, it's an unoriginal joke. I didn't insult him. Here's a quote. I did no such thing, and I owe him no apology. If anything, he owes everyone an apology for subjecting us to his attempt to be clever with the lyrics of Bohemian Rhapsody, unquote.
Corey
28:30
very on brand for Dale Smith, by the way. If you know him by, yeah,
Zain
28:34
yeah, if you follow
Corey
28:36
My personal view is, can take some pretty insane positions and then refuse to back away from them. And, you know, not a man without his merits and he can say some interesting things. And obviously, we know him largely for his fact checking of Donald Trump, right?
Corey
28:50
But sometimes you just got to know you fucked up, my dude. And this was one of those situations. This is not matched to the times we're in. And what I was about to say is if
Corey
29:01
if he had made the same comment in 1993, I
Corey
29:04
I don't think anyone would have cared
Corey
29:05
cared because it's just like there wasn't the same sort of threat level. And to your point, we hadn't, we
Corey
29:11
we hadn't sort of grappled with the fact discourse had gotten so wildly out of hand. And, you know, the idea is somebody might take your tweet and tweet and be more literal with it. That just wasn't in, A, wasn't in the discourse in the same way. And B, I firmly believe there
Corey
29:25
there was less risk with comments like that. It was seen more as rhetorical flourish. so um but we're not we're in 2022 where to your point people
Corey
29:35
people act badly um and you can pretty easily blame the algorithm you know the the dopamine rush you get when your side retweets you and and gives you validation and says yeah this is really good way to stick it to those assholes right um or even as a journalist when you say the thing that is outrageous and all of a sudden everyone's talking about you and that's your job to be talked about and all of a sudden sudden you're a public intellectual in the discourse.
Corey
30:00
And sure, I mean, I think on a base level, we are all chasing that fame
Corey
30:05
fame to an unhealthy degree the minute we log into something like Twitter.
Corey
30:09
I mean, why do any of us tweet anything on Twitter is a question I think we should ask. No, it's a real
Zain
30:15
real serious question. Do you want to actually talk about that for a second? Because the upside seems so limited, at least publicly. It kind of reminds me of our discussion on question period it's known for the fuck ups right
Zain
30:30
right and if our friend steven was here like great great
Zain
30:33
tweets over the years like great like fucking home run tweets carter but
Zain
30:37
but it's known for the fuck ups sure
Zain
30:41
reasons i don't tweet to be honest
Corey
30:43
let me just turn the lens on myself for a minute my last tweet was seven hours ago i was quote tweeting dr vivek murthy the the surgeon general in the united states yeah yeah
Corey
30:54
who he himself tweeted this This might be an unpopular opinion, but I love ice cream cones without the ice cream. Hashtag happy National Ice Cream Cone Day. And it's him with just a cone, eating just a cone.
Corey
31:06
The fucking sociopath just tweets it out. What a lunatic. And
Corey
31:09
And so my tweet is- By the way, in
Zain
31:11
in full uniform, which I love. In full uniform.
Corey
31:14
Yeah. And I say, if you don't put ice cream in it, it's not an ice cream cone. It's just a rolled up waffle. I will die on this hill.
Corey
31:23
You know, like, I mean,
Corey
31:24
why? I'll tell you why.
Corey
31:25
You're 53 away from
Zain
31:33
those final 53 followers. I just need
Corey
31:35
need 53 more followers.
Corey
31:36
followers. Yeah. No, I mean, but even that, like why? The world did not need this. I did not need the praise of 47 likes, which is what I've got on this particular tweet. This is ridiculous. Why do any of us do this? We're chasing like these small little dopamine main hits that come from the pings and we're like aha that's that's fun you know it's not about community or culture or any of those things it's you know because if it did i would care more about if my friends liked it than if it went viral right yeah and sure we just we're all chasing this thing and it's the
Zain
32:10
points as they call them right the points to kind of um look good to the network that you don't even really know right
Zain
32:17
right or to perform for the network you barely barely have any connection with talk
Zain
32:21
talk to you about okay so so this is where we're at right now any other comments on like why
Zain
32:25
why we found ourselves here like okay we talked about the algo we talked about like the the the points anything else you want to kind of add on this before i before i move on because i do want to talk about some provincial politics stuff which i think is quite fascinating in its own right well
Corey
32:37
well you got the social media algorithm but then you've got the actual dollars coming in too and we've talked about this pretty recently but outrage
Corey
32:44
chasing the dollar as steven called it, right? You chase the dollar and the dollar lives with the person, or at least the dollar that somebody is willing to part and give to you, lives with the person with
Corey
32:55
with those extreme opinions or the people that you can get the most scared or the people you can get the most angry.
Corey
33:02
that's a perverse incentive too. So politicians have the perverse incentive of money and that's how they get their volunteers and that's how they get into the limelight.
Corey
33:09
Media have the perverse incentive of eyeballs because that's how they get their money and that's how they get into the the limelight and
Corey
33:15
and the rest of us are just sort of sitting there i don't know i guess looking for our 15 minutes of fame i'm not even sure what but we we're
Corey
33:22
we're we're humans and we're hardwired to want the acceptance of our peers and our social betters and so we put these things out in the world and we wait for our peers and social betters to approve of them but they will approve of them more if we reinforce their views and mirror their views back at them well
Zain
33:38
is the incentives are broken One might argue that the incentives end to end are broken. They're misplaced. They're wrong. And it is creating this culture, I shouldn't say especially in politics, but illustrated perhaps as politics is one of the biggest and most notable examples of how these incentives have created perverse behaviors, which are reinforced by your peer group. You kind of add what we talked about in the first part, Corey, the dome syndrome, that just, you know, the dome syndrome has been there since forever, right? Pre-social media. That puts you into an even smaller sort of cocoon where you're getting, you know, high fives virtually and perhaps in person for your actions. It just narrows and narrows and narrows where the majority of people are left feeling less and less engaged by what's happening and more and more pushed away. way
Corey
34:33
well and you talk about the dome disease
Corey
34:36
disease as we call it here in alberta has been a problem forever the idea that you you act in a certain way and you you lose perspective underneath the dome of the legislature but
Corey
34:46
but the notion of 15 minutes of fame is not new i mean that goes the
Corey
34:50
60s people were talking about that people attributed to andy warhol it wasn't actually andy warhol as a bit of an aside but the
Corey
34:57
the the notion that uh you're just sort of chasing that limelight for a bit is is not new that what's new is that now we all have the ability to do it all of the time you need you used to at least need to do something to show up in your local newspaper now you don't even need to do that you just need to i
Corey
35:12
i don't know just hit that glass just right where that chime
Corey
35:15
chime goes and then the whole
Corey
35:16
whole internet says yeah i'm with that guy or gal i think that's perfect and
Corey
35:21
you know we all have to sort of grapple with what these things mean but ultimately
Corey
35:24
ultimately we're social animals not that far removed from the jungle and we've created all these crazy tools that hit these little centers.
Zain
35:31
And we've almost created this world where we want to validate what you've done, that there's no buyer's remorse to what you supported, what you bought, what you kind of believe in, right? That you're always cushioned with, you know, you made the right choice. And that kind of leads me into
Zain
35:47
Pierre Polyev in his first week. I talked about him in question period. I find this really interesting. So Corey, the liberals are reported to kind of drop their Arrive Can app, app, dropped the restrictions that they've had in place at the end of the month. It's been reported that the pandemic border measures are going away. We can get into the details, but I want to get into the politics of it. Because Pierre Poliev, in a passenger seat of a car today, films a selfie video saying, we're winning. We're
Zain
36:14
One week in, they're scrambling. They're taking inflation seriously. One week in, I'm getting you results on the border.
Zain
36:21
What do you you think of that like what do you think like and it kind of leads into this concept of like ensuring everyone that that voted for you feels like you know where we're doing it constant like you called it filling the pantry right take
Zain
36:33
many shots i bet they're gonna do it on the dale smith thing right they're like they're probably gonna try to fundraise off of it right ironically you know keep the ecosystem alive of this toxicity this guy said shit to me well i'm not gonna rage farm to get more money from you which will kind of create its own vicious cycle alone mine but
Zain
36:50
what do you kind of think of pierce tactic this week around you know already declaring levels of victory one week in because how long can he do this that's my thing i get the guy's mo i get the guy's cadence we've talked about this but like how long can he do this is he gonna go every week this is how he won like for like what like fucking 100 weeks 150 fucking weeks we're gonna be like this is how you won this week well
Corey
37:14
well let me ask you a question yeah
Corey
37:16
is it possible he's just right he's correct that
Corey
37:19
that he is already winning sure
Zain
37:24
but i guess the question cory is is is about longevity sustainability of these tactics um but like later on like what do you think do you feel like this is the right move for him to like kind
Zain
37:34
kind of take credit for what the liberals are are reported to be doing yeah
Corey
37:39
course i absolutely do and i think um it's
Corey
37:43
it's never bad when it looks like your opponent is on the back foot and if canadians can start to believe that pierre pauliev could scare them so quickly into changing their views on some things then
Corey
37:56
then that's not bad for him but
Corey
37:58
he might also actually be able to legitimately take some credit for these things look the government's never going to say that they're always going to say these things were underway this is what we're going to do but i can tell you as somebody who sat at some of those tables a
Corey
38:10
lot of the time the conversation is we
Corey
38:12
we don't need this fucking distraction this guy's killing us on this thing so
Corey
38:16
so let's just get rid of it off the table let's
Corey
38:17
rid of it let's
Corey
38:18
let's just rip that band-aid off and move on and
Zain
38:22
don't give him that continued sword especially in question period so to speak as that you
Corey
38:25
you know as that
Corey
38:26
from there yeah so
Corey
38:28
so you can argue that he he did have an effect on that particular matter and it's funny because
Zain
38:33
because the government will sit sit there and pout and cross their arms and say, that's bullshit. That's
Corey
38:40
We just didn't want to deal with it anymore. Well, guess what, my friends? He found something where the
Corey
38:45
the conservatives were on the right side of public opinion and you were on the wrong side. You were doing the wrong side thing and he made you do the right side thing. And that is kind of winning. That is kind of winning. Now, to your question, Zane, can he do this every week? Look, if every week he's putting out i'm winning here's another reason i'm winning yeah
Zain
39:03
yeah i will be exhausted with
Corey
39:05
with that by next week and like not even
Zain
39:08
weeks okay yeah good yeah
Corey
39:10
but on a week where he can legitimately make the claim to wins yeah
Zain
39:16
you want to be taking
Corey
39:16
taking your your w's as much as giving them their l's for
Zain
39:20
for sure okay how do you extend the w then what what is extension of this w look like right through we talked about like through digital through how do you how do you own this
Zain
39:28
this victory and like really hang it up right
Zain
39:32
right like really hang it up on the on the wall and be like let us never forget this
Zain
39:37
this w i got you in the first week what is the political equivalent of that cory well
Zain
39:41
well strategically tactically yeah
Corey
39:43
yeah you kind of hit on it in your question because it's not for
Corey
39:48
for the general public after this week you
Corey
39:50
you you pointed out to them this week and they're going to move on and they're not going to care and frankly by the next election they'll probably
Corey
39:56
have no sense of the timelines and the sequencing because really that you really have to be pretty deep in things to be tracking things that closely like oh
Corey
40:03
yeah arrive can i
Corey
40:05
remember that it was that thing i hated and then pierre polliev was elected leader and the very next week it was gone you know it's just that's not a realistic thought train three years from now like let's just be real about that but
Corey
40:17
but it's also yeah
Zain
40:20
in its own right yeah
Corey
40:21
yeah nothing wins like winning though and when you're talking about that uh base of conservative supporters and partisans you go out you're like you know what getting
Corey
40:29
getting it done let's
Corey
40:30
let's get more done let's go and you know there's that giddiness that comes from having you know having the advantage and having the initiative and i'm sure it's good for fundraising and i'm i'm equally sure it's good for building this sense that he's he's
Corey
40:45
he's got it and let's not forget our last episode we were talking about reyes and the the, was
Corey
40:51
was that last episode? I guess it was. Maybe it was the one before, about how a conservative MP had left and
Corey
40:59
he was being attacked for very aggressive tactics with a text message. With text messages.
Zain
41:05
Yeah, yeah. Last Patreon. Yeah.
Corey
41:08
wants to kind of just also
Corey
41:10
also turn the page. There is a version out there without these things where somebody says, oh boy, he sure lost a lot in the first week. So he wants to define his first week is victory you are right too
Corey
41:22
too about this sense that you
Corey
41:24
you mentioned like this idea that once we invest in something we just keep investing in it you know this is actually kind of almost cult style analysis where if somebody has made a public proclamation they're a member of a group and has given money to that group the
Corey
41:39
the odds of them breaking with that group become super low yes
Corey
41:43
but you wouldn't want people who had done neither right who were for example in the the conservative party and they had supported charrette in
Corey
41:51
in that relatively small percent you
Corey
41:53
you wouldn't want them to give have an excuse to be like this guy i can't
Corey
41:57
can't do it you know like i'm not with him he's already blown this up and if you can tell them hey this first week i know you had your concerns but we're already winning why
Zain
42:07
it's it's really interesting around like the psychology of this right like when we talk about money and politics and curry you and i've talked about this i don't think on the podcast directly but often we call it stickiness right if you can And if you can sign a petition or sign up on an email list, that's one thing. But if you donate even a nominal amount, it's
Zain
42:24
it's skin in the game. It's like it's
Zain
42:26
it's you being a stakeholder in the process in a real way. Like $1.
Zain
42:31
Yeah, yeah. And often that's why you see if you're getting asked to donate, some of the reasons why the dollar amounts are so low, number one, it's to make it accessible. But number two, it's the psychology of saying that even a couple of bucks keeps you around around longer, keeps you more loyal, keeps you around for the roller coaster because it's an emotional attachment to the campaign or the leader or the advocacy mission, less so a strict logical one, even though you may have started where you may have thought it was a rational connection with a campaign about food security. But now it's one that you have to see succeed. And
Zain
43:09
And so we call this the ladder of engagement. But in politics, it's the stickiness. How sticky are these voters? What What can the other side do to get them from you? And we know that dollars, especially donated dollars, even in the smallest amount, kind of turn something that might seem rational into something that is now significantly more emotional in terms of the type of connection.
Corey
43:35
Yeah. That's just, okay,
Zain
43:36
I want to talk Alberta. And
Corey
43:37
And there's a couple of things. Hold on. We're not going to talk about the fact that an ice cream cone without ice cream is just a rolled up waffle? I
Zain
43:44
can't let you taking shits on Vivek, man. He's a brown guy. He's made a comeback. Do not have this role, then got banned from
Zain
43:55
from this role and have it rolling. I think that's fucking great. I
Corey
43:57
I love every- His
Corey
43:58
His Twitter bio talks about him being the 19th and 21st US Surgeon General. Oh, I didn't see that. That's actually very funny.
Corey
44:04
Non-consecutive terms. That's amazing. Yeah, that's great.
Zain
44:06
great. That's great. I love of everything about this guy uh uh he is a sociopath uh for his lack of ice cream uh choices but uh yeah we can't we can't we can't publicly we can't publicly slam him further than that hogan alberta what do you want to talk about first kenny or smith what is more interesting to you i want kenny i'll give you the preview kenny it's his end days and how he's spending his final days i.e in toronto with the alberta's calling campaign and a whole bunch of other things that will kind kind of wrap
Zain
44:37
wrap up his final couple of weeks. Smith, there's a couple of things. She's gotten two new endorsements, at least that I know of, it may be more. Angela Pitt and Mike Ellis now on board endorsing her.
Zain
44:52
And also her private polling,
Zain
44:58
persuades, Hamish Marshall, former sheer campaign manager, finding itself in a Rick Bell column column and then having that column as justification for supporting the
Zain
45:11
polling. It's just – so, what do we want to talk about? Maybe one of them is a save it when Carter's here topic. So, we can –
Corey
45:18
Well, I think we'll actually talk about it when Carter's here. The polling one, I mean, you can't introduce this at the 45-minute mark. That could literally be a two
Zain
45:27
I actually want to do that because I actually wanted to get you guys – my plan was kind of today to get you guys to make a guide on what the media and columnists perhaps need need to know about polling and what just happened there because this wasn't the first example but there's something about what happened with rick bell covering internal polling um that i think would be really interesting let's park that let's talk about let's
Zain
45:47
let's talk about daniel smith getting two new endorsements and i might just simply phrase it this way big
Zain
45:51
big deal or not so much
Corey
45:56
think as an individual event not so much actually one of the things i have to confess i've been a little surprised by is that there hasn't been more flipping that okay
Corey
46:04
what what i thought too that's
Corey
46:05
thought as well yeah which
Corey
46:07
which to me look i mean there's we talked about this in the context of one of the flippers who i i can no longer recall way back when the first one went from taves to smith oh it
Corey
46:17
was glubish glubish right yeah yeah
Corey
46:21
some ways like the hurdle for you to switch is is much higher than the original endorsement you have to to be sure this person's going to win. You do not want to be the person who leaves the candidate. It's strict opportunism
Corey
46:36
isn't it? It's strict
Zain
46:36
strict like, hey, I'm getting behind what's a surefire... I'm doing this as purely opportunistic.
Corey
46:43
Well, if you're endorsing Taves right now, and tomorrow you endorse Smith, and then Taves wins, well, you're well and truly fucked, aren't you? I mean, that's the end of your political career. That's much worse than if If you had never endorsed Taves in the first place. So on one level, I sort of get that it's hard to break that group. But what I find interesting is everything
Corey
47:04
everything that we've sort of had spilled out to us from the UCP, whether it's polls, and let's not dwell too much on Danielle Smith's personal poll there, or the fact that the candidates themselves seem to think that Danielle Smith's the person in the poll position.
Corey
47:20
seems to suggest that she's likely to win but people aren't necessarily jumping over there in a big way even though we've seen a general softening of rhetoric overall about her and
Corey
47:30
and so it does make me wonder
Corey
47:34
wonder it does make me wonder and so but more to your question i guess the fact that two went over doesn't mean too very much or like too endorsed i guess we're not even saying yeah
Zain
47:45
i don't think i don't think either either of them flip although
Corey
47:48
yeah i don't think so either although i could be wrong about that but
Corey
47:53
just too doesn't surprise
Corey
47:56
um and it certainly doesn't seem like there's a trend line you could point to like you're not starting to see a wave of people towards daniel smith now if tomorrow four more go and then six more go and seven more go i guess we have everything we need to know it's over at that point but let's put it this way if you're sitting there at the 11th hour you've not endorsed anybody daniel smith looks likely to win yeah
Corey
48:19
she is looking for some validation that she can work with the caucus your incentive is actually pretty strong to endorse daniel smith going
Corey
48:26
going to taves and being like uh you know supporter number 54 and 55 or whatever the fuck it is doesn't mean very much but if you are just part of this small caucus of supporters of daniel smith you might be really doing yourself a favor so
Zain
48:39
so there's some game theory in there yeah i was gonna say i was there's a bit of game theory here so you let me let me clarify that game theory so if you're sitting right now as someone who is not a flipper but has not endorsed you
Zain
48:51
talked to me about the game theory of like if this is looking like daniel
Zain
48:54
daniel is going to win your incentive is to do it isn't it yeah
Corey
48:59
yeah it's a jump on board of course it is absolutely it's just been brought up in chat too that dreeshan also endorsed dreeshan and
Zain
49:05
and by the way angela pitt endorsing
Zain
49:08
endorsing daniel today she was the former chair of rajan sani's campaign yeah
Corey
49:11
yeah but that one i almost don't like i think I think it was like Rajan trying to make like an
Corey
49:15
an optics – We all sort of knew that
Zain
49:16
that was going to happen because – No,
Zain
49:18
like this is someone who was not my type of conservative and look at the fact that she's standing beside me. She resigned. She endorsed Daniel.
Corey
49:26
Daniel. Yeah. She needed
Corey
49:27
needed to get right with her constituents or something like that.
Zain
49:29
Absolutely. And if you'll recall during the pandemic where she stood on a few of those issues. Oh, boy. Angela Pippen.
Zain
49:35
Yeah. So, you've got that
Zain
49:37
that sort of game theory happening. On its own, not a big deal. We'll park the polling. Can we start with – And the main comment that I wanted to make about Danielle, before I jump to Kenny, is
Zain
49:47
is that last episode we talked about either
Zain
49:50
either the phone calls or the emails or the text to the internet. I feel like if we were right about that, this could be some of the fruit that comes from that, right? Is those sort of like, hey, just wanted to touch base, hear great
Zain
50:03
things about you. Like this is the Carter phone call, which by the way, got like rave reviews from everyone I heard. That impromptu phone call that Stephen Carter made up. if you haven't listened to that last episode we put carter on the spot and said if you're daniel smith calling your caucus what would you say he does like this two-minute monologue um
Zain
50:20
which i think was great which i think we both gave him high marks for he's not here so we can pump his tires a bit yeah that's true i was feeling
Corey
50:26
feeling a little nervous about how nice we're being but uh pump his tires a
Zain
50:30
a bit um if you if you want um not nice uh six thousand word piece piece in the sprawl about steven um
Corey
50:37
i think the it's important for
Corey
50:40
for people to know that uh we have to work with steven if we let his ego get out of control beyond what's already a rather healthy degree i mean we all we all pay for it we all suffer he's
Zain
50:50
he's self-perpetuating he doesn't need anyone to pump him up or bring him down he's just like equally on on volume 11 all the time um
Zain
51:00
this could be dividends right cory like that could be being paid if daniel's doing that That going quiet, linking to the media, that people are starting to normalize, that people are starting to come around. The work could have paid off with these two endorsements, right? That just could have been part of that energy. So I'm going to say yes and no. Okay,
Corey
51:18
Okay, tell me why no. I'll tell you why no, because if you are an uncommitted MLA at this point, there's not that many of them left, you
Corey
51:27
you better fucking have been on their Rolodex for months, like getting the charm offensive perpetually. from
Zain
51:33
all from all of them if not the top three so yeah
Corey
51:35
yeah i saw the call around more as people who had taken positions against smith and her saying it's cool i'm not too worried about the fact you took a position against me um
Corey
51:45
and and that was more what i sort of saw as the charm offensive that daniel smith was beginning or and really highlighting with that don braid piece but
Corey
51:54
but if you're uh if you're kind of like somebody at the dance without a partner smith should have been laying it on thick for a very long time now it is possible that as part of these call arounds what she found was by creating more comfort in those opposed to her those who were uncommitted in the middle said all
Corey
52:14
all right i'm not going to be a pariah with my colleagues if i support danielle smith because danielle smith is making those bridges uh with the rest of the caucus so you know it's all connected it's i wouldn't say otherwise but i do think almost they are two different tasks
Zain
52:29
talk to me about jason kenney in his final days here the guy seems like he's always seemed like ever since he said i'm stepping aside like he's going hard what
Zain
52:38
what he's going hard with with the last week or so is this alberta's calling campaign before we get
Zain
52:42
him what do you think of this campaign the the basic premise if it's if if this is a fair explanation it's cheaper to live in alberta you need to come here shit's pretty legit here come here vancouver Toronto uh afford a life here you can actually get a single family house um outdoors coffee shops you know the things that you're used to all of that shit is here come to Alberta that's pretty much in a nutshell the campaign um and I believe it's albertascalling.ca it might it might be something something else but I'll pull that up while while uh I get you to respond to what do do you think uh of
Zain
53:20
of this campaign what do you think and it is alberta's calling.ca what do you think of its positioning uh as as someone who's you know overseen
Zain
53:28
overseen these campaigns for the government what do you kind of think they're trying to do their objectives and then we'll talk about the politics of kenny because he also called phase two of the campaign him going to toronto making a press conference like doing high visibility sort of stuff like he's up front and center in this campaign which i find really interesting from from a government perspective
Corey
53:48
Yeah. So let's start with the data that they're obviously working with to create this campaign. As far as I know, and I haven't worked for the government of Alberta since 2020, it's
Corey
54:00
it's a solid foundation. We certainly were well aware through government polling, through all sorts of data sources we had available that people looked
Corey
54:08
looked at Alberta's affordable house prices and high salaries with a certain amount of envy. be. And of
Corey
54:14
of course, you can, through the various economic development agencies, do all sorts of focus groups with all sorts of people. And you'll understand that the people who make the decision to move to Alberta will often highlight the
Corey
54:25
the same things, right? Low cost of living and close to nature is
Zain
54:29
is when we get, especially for
Corey
54:32
Like near the mountains,
Corey
54:36
opportunity, opportunity more uh more income and opportunity i think is seen more in like the job opportunity at kind of a tier of like i'm i'm 30 i'm 40 these days
Corey
54:48
20s there's a lot that's been written about the fact that younger albertans see less opportunity um
Corey
54:53
but we don't need to sort of dwell on that that
Corey
54:57
that that's all solid and so i think to build a campaign around that if you're trying to create an economic development campaign makes sense i i think i would still ask to
Corey
55:08
to what end like what are you trying to get out of it is it literally to get people to move here are you trying to get companies to move here this is often a problem with economic development plans it's you know you're trying to lift generally but you're not lifting specifically trying
Corey
55:20
trying to create the air support for people to go in here
Corey
55:23
here i am with my war metaphors just me and dale smith right but create create the air support for the ground troops to come in and then have those one-on-one conversations. But if
Corey
55:32
if this is actually targeted towards people in the general population
Corey
55:38
maybe I'll move to Alberta, maybe I won't move to Alberta. I do think it's missing something really important here.
Corey
55:43
And that's a bit of a network effect and it's relying too heavily on Alberta's brand, right?
Corey
55:48
right? One of the things I
Corey
55:50
always find about Alberta myself, and I love Alberta. Like you, I grew up in Alberta. I moved here when I was nine years old. I've been here ever since um
Corey
56:00
it is it is like it's a neat place it's an idiosyncratic place it's not the place it looks like from the outside it's huge sense of community you know we're we're a big city that feels like a small town a lot of the time you do have a lot of different jobs you are right next to the mountains uh it's it's cool it's a great place and if you haven't been to Alberta don't let your
Corey
56:21
your views of it from the outside or your politics poison it come here and check it out it's a it's an amazing place but
Corey
56:28
the alberta brand we also know from polling in government carries some negatives right
Corey
56:33
right and and then it carries a few things that are maybe negative or positive depending on your politics and who you are so
Corey
56:41
so the negatives it's seen as polluting and uncaring about the environment uh depending on who you are you may or may not think that alberta being viewed as conservative is a good or a bad thing
Corey
56:51
so this alberta has a charge to it too and to have a tagline that's so heavy like alberta is calling
Corey
56:58
i don't know i mean i'm sure it focus grouped okay so i won't be too hard on it because it is built on a strong foundation but
Corey
57:04
but for me i
Corey
57:05
i would have taken more of like a network of effect like everybody knows somebody in alberta who's doing well and i
Corey
57:11
i would have done more your calgary friends own a house and make twice as much as you come join them you know it's something more along those lines that wasn't like take this plunge into this place where you have mixed feelings about and
Corey
57:25
come join your friends who have taken that leap and are calling back to you and are actually not moving back to toronto and you can't quite understand why you know i think there's something
Corey
57:32
something there about network that's missing from this
Zain
57:34
there's a subtexture that's like you know you for the longest time you thought alberta was settling so
Zain
57:39
so if you moved to alberta you thought you would have settled right because you weren't in the hustle or bustle of a vancouver or a Toronto, but now that cost of living is getting so high, you've got to make a move. You have to make a move and we're calling. And it's rather than to your point of saying, you can live that same high quality life, the ambition that you may have in those cities, with the effects of what they give you,
Zain
58:02
you're not abandoning anything there. You're actually duplicating it here.
Zain
58:07
You're doing more with your dollar, your friends. I think there's an element to that of saying like, there's a sense of loss, but it's almost like, you know, you got to make a choice. It's almost like a forced sort of mentality, if that makes sense at all.
Corey
58:20
Yeah, it does. And look, I mean, here's what I'd encourage our listeners outside of the province to do right now, right?
Corey
58:26
Google Calgary downtown, look at our skyline. It's not as big as Toronto's, but I think you'll agree it's not that small either.
Corey
58:32
And then I want you to consider that I live on 14th Avenue. You live on what, 24th, something around there? Yeah,
Corey
58:42
And you can buy a house on either of those avenues for less than a million dollars, right? Way less than a million
Corey
58:48
Yeah. I mean, I walk downtown. I walk downtown and I own a house, a detached house with a backyard and a garage.
Corey
58:58
And I bought that for what wouldn't buy you a parking spot in the same geography in Toronto. So in some ways, the Albertan in me, Zane, almost got my backup when you talked about about it being settling. And I know people have said things like that all the time. Yeah, yeah,
Zain
59:11
yeah, yeah. I don't
Zain
59:12
if your polling suggested that while you were in government, but I'm just talking like emotionally.
Corey
59:16
emotionally. Like I think there is that
Zain
59:18
that mindset, especially from a
Corey
59:19
a specific cohort, I can say. Yeah, like I don't know that people saw it so much as settling as the, quite often it was seen as I'll go to Alberta for a bit
Zain
59:28
and maybe I'll come back, right?
Corey
59:29
right? Like I'll make my, like it's some sort of Wild West town. I'll make my fortune and I'll move back. But there's a lot more to Alberta than that.
Corey
59:36
A lot more. Yeah,
Zain
59:37
Yeah, that is interesting. Tell me about Jason Kenney. I want to end the conversation here.
Zain
59:42
He's now a centerpiece of this campaign. He's been tweeting it out. People have been roasting him online, as they always do. I'm really curious about his political moves here, right? He's the main spokesperson for this campaign. And you've probably seen previous public affairs campaigns where the premier is not so heavily invested or leaning into. Talk to me about him as a spokesperson, and let's end off the conversation about him in the final days. Because I'm curious what you think we might expect from the premier heading up to, you know, the last day of his officially being premier and leader of the UCP.
Corey
1:00:14
I think it's interesting. I
Corey
1:00:16
I do, because on one hand, I think this is exactly the kind of work a caretaker premier should do. Who's
Corey
1:00:22
Who's opposed? Like, you
Corey
1:00:24
you can argue about whether you think the campaign is well constructed or not, but the economic development
Corey
1:00:29
development for Alberta, like that's hands across the aisles kinds of stuff. It's the same sort of thing that the NDP would be doing if the NDP were in government.
Corey
1:00:38
And certainly, it's not going to rock the boat in the UCP leadership race, right? So why not do that? And isn't this exactly what he should do?
Corey
1:00:48
what I have trouble reconciling is, it's not as though Jason Kenney has limited himself to those activities during this period. He's had budgets. He's made statements. He's gotten into the fray on like half dozen different fronts. And so on that front, I think if you're going to treat it as business as usual, this is kind of a weird way to end the campaign. And what are you trying
Corey
1:01:07
trying to get out of
Zain
1:01:07
of it? Which asks me, what do you think he's trying to get out of it? Because there's two lanes. It's future positioning outside of politics or, and this might sound crazy, Corey, but do you see a Jason Kenney comeback of some kind as being a possibility? If the Daniel Smith UCP thing
Zain
1:01:23
thing doesn't work out, do you feel like there is a bit of a a political bone in him that still wants to keep his profile
Zain
1:01:28
profile active, take credit where credit is due, kind of start writing the political legacy as much as it is seeking perhaps business or corporate opportunities?
Corey
1:01:39
I don't know. It's hard for anybody to leave politics.
Corey
1:01:43
politics. And I imagine even harder if you've been in politics your entire adult life as Jason Kenney has. And so I definitely I definitely don't know that I could say with any certainty, yeah, I know he's done in politics. It's tough when you were premier to say, I'm
Corey
1:01:58
I'm going to, I mean, some have done it as Jean Desange did it famously in BC. Maybe he runs again as an MP if a seat comes open. He's certainly young enough. He could do that.
Corey
1:02:09
My sense is he probably wants to go and make some money.
Corey
1:02:12
For me, in some ways, I wonder if this isn't more about legacy
Corey
1:02:16
legacy and something that he's cared about. Look, I mean, I worked for the guy for a year. I'll tell you, he was really quite passionate about the idea of Alberta as a destination. He
Corey
1:02:25
He saw it as rooted
Corey
1:02:26
rooted fundamentally in low tax, low regulation, a place where you can be free
Corey
1:02:30
prosper as a business, but
Corey
1:02:33
he saw it as a destination. I don't doubt for a minute that he's passionate about the idea that he would encourage people to come to Alberta, and certainly he
Corey
1:02:42
he has done those things. You can love them or you can hate them, but he has reduced corporate income taxes. He has reduced regulations from banking to labor
Corey
1:02:53
labor regulations, and now he wants everyone
Corey
1:02:59
everyone to know about it, I guess. I don't know. I mean, I guess that's the way I would put it.
Zain
1:03:04
So end us off here. What advice would you give for him? It's September 22nd when we record. Is it exactly two weeks, Corey? I think it is. Two weeks
Zain
1:03:13
Two weeks from today, he's done as UCP, as
Zain
1:03:17
as Premier, sorry, with someone else taking over. Final two weeks, endgame for Jason Kenney. If
Zain
1:03:24
If you could whisper in his ear, what
Zain
1:03:26
what would you want to tell him?
Corey
1:03:28
Same thing I'd say to somebody on the last page of an essay. This is the time to summarize, to state your accomplishments in the frame that you want.
Corey
1:03:37
And if you can tie it onto the events of the day, good.
Corey
1:03:43
start start doing the outline of that book and the other thing i can say is anytime you leave a big
Corey
1:03:47
big job you regret not taking
Corey
1:03:49
taking better stock of things on your way out the door and i'm not i'm not saying pull a trump
Corey
1:03:53
trump and take a bunch of files on your way
Zain
1:03:55
way out what do you mean better stock of things yeah because explain
Corey
1:03:57
explain that to me
Corey
1:03:58
you're sitting there jason kenney and
Corey
1:04:01
and you've got your outlook calendar that tells you how you've operated the last four years yeah sit scan you know week at at a time won't take you that much time really really sit down and write out what you did as premier um because you're gonna wish you had that when you're not premier anymore and um
Corey
1:04:17
um and that's where you can start to put together that narrative of your legacy and you can really strengthen it by the steps that you take right now both internal like the literal go through your calendar think about what you've done you're
Corey
1:04:29
you're a big public figure you'll be in all the newspapers but
Corey
1:04:32
but also uh the the comments you make. These valedictory moments will be available to you where you are going to be asked by the media, well,
Corey
1:04:39
well, reflect on your past couple of years. And you can say, well, look, it was really rocky at certain
Corey
1:04:43
certain moments. And I, you know, obviously I had to make some difficult decisions, but at the end of the day, I
Corey
1:04:49
I had a big ambitious platform, tons
Corey
1:04:51
tons of well-articulated policy ideas, and
Corey
1:04:54
and I did them. And
Corey
1:04:55
And I did them for these reasons. And I didn't always, I
Corey
1:05:00
didn't always even feel that great about how i had to act and during some of the moments we had to react to uh you know a changing world but i can i did what i said i was going to do and this is where alberta is after my premiership
Corey
1:05:12
one you know what yeah
Corey
1:05:14
go ahead i'll say the other thing is
Corey
1:05:17
he has been a big benefactor of the calendar flipping over and events oil
Zain
1:05:29
is all of this?
Corey
1:05:29
Well, I have my own thoughts.
Zain
1:05:31
Right. The middle line of the pandemic has shifted. End us on this.
Zain
1:05:36
Go out fighting, kind of like Boris Johnson, or go out graciously, Corey?
Zain
1:05:42
Final days, final speech, final messaging. What's the close here? Do you give it a bit of a sharp elbow that you're still a fighter, or do you go graciously in
Zain
1:05:54
in this sense? What would you advise them?
Corey
1:05:57
I would say that the sharpest
Corey
1:06:00
sharpest elbow farewell speech and the most gracious farewell speech that I can think of are both the same. Oh,
Corey
1:06:07
Oh, interesting. They're George Washington's farewell address, right? Where he said, be aware of all of these dangerous things that basically the Democrats
Corey
1:06:15
Democrats were doing at the time. Yeah,
Corey
1:06:18
He might actually do
Zain
1:06:19
do that about his successor successor in his
Corey
1:06:21
his own party i would not be remotely surprised to see something that's somewhat modeled under the like george washington be aware you know as you go forward alberta's in this great place right now but alberta's at a moment and you need to be aware of x y and z and
Corey
1:06:34
and uh i wish you all the best and i will be here uh being one of the biggest champions of alberta forevermore blah blah blah whatever it is but i i kind of expect that he'll do a little of both interesting
Zain
1:06:45
interesting no No over, under, and lightning round. Why, Corey? Because we do it for Carter and he's not here.
Zain
1:06:51
This is good. We'll get Carter back on Sunday, back from Dan Flashes, but we're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode one of The Strategist. My name is Zane Valjoux. With me, as always, Corey Hogan. No one else. And we'll see you next time.