Episode 985: Turnaround job

Zain 0:01

This is a strategist episode 985. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, happy Sunday.

Zain 0:09

What is going on, Corey? Carter, don't speak. What's going on, Corey? How are you? I'll tell you what's not going

Corey 0:15

The AFL, my picks, I went seven for eight this week and

Corey 0:21

I was pretty impressed with myself. I thought that was pretty good. I almost went eight for eight, but unfortunately, one of the teams didn't do as well as I had hoped. was

Carter 0:30

it the crows winning because this is a remarkable story my i had the exact same thing happened no that can't be true one the crows won the adelaide crows against all odds won by one point one point unbelievable

Carter 0:44

unbelievable that's not real so

Carter 0:46

so you're making things up now it doesn't

Zain 0:47

doesn't sound believable especially when cory just talks to you about what he's doing he's just kind of stealing his content this is

Carter 0:55

it's anzac day there's two more games today one is starting like literally right now so let's get this done so we can watch some uh afl cory

Corey 1:03

cory do you want to

Corey 1:04

there's no such thing as anzac day i do i do that

Zain 1:07

that when i trust you all this stuff i told you that a trusted source that we got you carter this is why i trust cory about this stuff uh carter i need to ask i need to ask you before we move on carter um yeah ben simmons is he soft should he have played tonight yeah

Carter 1:20

yeah he should have played um you know what it's it's the playoffs it's time to suck it up and get in the game for fuck's sake there's no second chances pretty

Zain 1:28

pretty good take cory what do you think all right he'll be ready for game eight it's fine don't worry i'm sorry about carter's take what do you think about carter's take i don't

Zain 1:34

don't care what you think i

Zain 1:36

about why do you think i care no

Corey 1:39

that was a mistake of mine yeah yeah

Corey 1:41

yeah i walked into that rookie

Corey 1:43

good anything else you want

Zain 1:44

want to discuss up front or

Corey 1:44

or should we jump right into it well we um we're still selling tickets to the edmonton show no

Carter 1:52

the edmonton show who cares about the edmonton show go barry season three drops tonight so again let's get this thing done let's go is that how we're celebrating anzac

Corey 2:00

with barry season three yeah

Carter 2:02

yeah it's uh they that's why they did it this way okay

Corey 2:06

thank you for you yeah

Carter 2:10

keep going keep going let's do no what i don't want to do it i don't want to do it let's do strategy

Zain 2:14

strategy let's do strategy let's leave that bullshit there and move it on to our first segment our first segment share reset Reset. That's right. We are resetting the Jean Charest campaign. At least externally,

Zain 2:28

we are resetting it. Guys, the Jean Charest campaign is in trouble. We may not actually know if it's in trouble on the inside, on memberships, on what they're selling, but it clearly, Stephen Carter, has an optics problem. It has a message problem. It may have an expectation game problem. I want to create some new rules for the Jean Charest campaign. And so what we're doing tonight on Sunday night is the two of you are going to be constructing a memo for the entire Jean Charest operation across the country. The two of you have been hired for this next 30 or 40 minutes to construct this memo on six key topics for Jean Charest. Six? Six topics. You're going to give me a line or two on each round, what the new rules are for the Jean Charest campaign. So this gets funneled out to all of the organizers, fanned out to everyone across the country. What

Zain 3:18

What are the new rules on rallies?

Zain 3:20

What are the new rules on media relations?

Zain 3:23

What are the new rules on handlers,

Zain 3:24

handlers, aides, and support for Jean Charest?

Zain 3:27

What are the new rules on message, social

Zain 3:32

not necessarily a new rule, but perhaps a new rule or

Zain 3:36

or new replacements in campaign leadership?

Zain 3:39

This is what I want to hit on. So rallies, media relations, handlers slash aides, message, social media, and campaign leadership. But then I'll give you guys a chance to say, is there additional items that you want to create new rules about? But at least for those six things, I want to see if the two of you can can come up with some new rules so that the Jean Charest campaign, regardless of how it's doing under the hood, doesn't

Zain 4:01

doesn't look like a

Zain 4:02

a car that, let's say, I own versus the car that the two of you own, but is on massive backorder, which

Zain 4:10

which I guess makes my car better. So, Corey, I'm going to start with you. I want to talk about rallies. Jean Charest is getting the shit beat out of him in the public for his anemic rallies. In fact, he's gone, I don't even know why, to the same location as Pierre Polyev the day after and has produced one one-hundredth of the crowd. And I think that's a slight exaggeration, but not exactly. So, Corey, start with us. If you're putting the first sort of thoughts on the board, on the whiteboard tonight, under the section of rallies, what are the new rules for the campaign as it relates to campaign rallies that you want to start? And then, Carter, I'll let you mold some of that wet clay Corey puts out there. Well, my first one flows

Corey 4:50

flows out of your intro here, where you said we don't know what's happening underneath the hood we just know it's

Corey 4:56

it's giving off a stink this campaign is giving off a stink there is turd vibes yeah big

Corey 5:03

turd vibes right and um the problem with that is no matter how good of a sleeper car it is if it looks that rough from the outside over time people will turn against it and they won't buy this is a this is a labored metaphor already but the point is that perception of failure will become real if they don't manage to get a handle on those things so talking rallies specifically here and again you teed it up by saying he's making these easy and unflattering comparisons possible by going to the same venue and having fewer people they've got to just they've got to stop playing games that they can't win so if you're going to do rallies the rallies have to be in very small rooms they've got to be pitched not about big crowds but about intimacy it's got to to become an apples to oranges comparison not a not an apples to apples comparison which is what he's stuck in right now that's that's rule number one um 1a of rallies always is you want a room slightly too small for the event and so there's you know you should never be going somewhere where you're going to underwhelm in it period even if pohiev wasn't in the campaign you would not want to do that carter

Zain 6:11

carter i want to come to you on this and i will say for the for the purposes of this segment you guys can disagree with each other i do want to try to get to a form of consensus at the end of each of these six rules so that you guys are forming this together so cory's saying listen you stop playing games you can't win you go with smaller rooms make it about intimacy apples to oranges slightly smaller events there's an argument out there that says jean trey's just fucking scrap rallies all together he's a game he's not going to win regardless but i want to get your take carter are you agree when cory are you going in a different direction cory

Carter 6:44

cory is wrong you were right scrap

Carter 6:46

scrap all the rallies never do a rally he

Carter 6:50

can do coffee parties he can do virtual gatherings he can do um you know picnics in the park he is not allowed to do a rally ever again this last one with the empty you know you called you you charitably said one in a hundred that implied there were people there um it was a it

Carter 7:10

was a disaster um don't do don't play on your opponent's field you know pierre paliev has won rallies you've lost rallies move on you are no longer if you're making this about rules you are no longer allowed to do rallies period um do like seriously there's all kinds of other techniques and tactics that he can use uh almost all of them by the way, are better than rallies at actually selling memberships, bringing people on, making them feel like they're valued, right? Rallies are usually something you do once in a while to literally rally the troops, right? When you're doing them every night, you're not actually doing the work of selling the memberships. So Pierre Paul Dieves, his campaign may be doing great by all external appearances it is, but it

Carter 7:56

it may also just be that, you

Carter 7:58

you know, a group of people going to rallies. Like it may not be members. It may not be people who are voting. It may not be enough. And so I would just simply say, we're

Carter 8:07

we're now going to write new tactics that will give us the victory and rallies is not going to be one of those tactics. Corey,

Zain 8:13

Corey, respond to this from your perspective.

Corey 8:16

Well, look, that's the same thing I'm thinking. I wouldn't call them rallies either here. And what I'm wondering is what was the thought process that led them to do this in the first place? because it's impossible to me that it wasn't an attempt to draw in a parallel so why would you do that why would you do that to yourself i don't even know why you would go into the rally space let alone pick a venue that's going to draw those easy comparisons and this does maybe bleed into your campaign leadership conversation down the road maybe i'll just put this out here as a bit of a teaser but that

Corey 8:45

that is a very flawed process if you're sitting in a room and you're saying oh man he's killing us on rallies ergo

Corey 8:52

ergo we must do rallies it's

Zain 8:54

it's not the same fucking room yeah it's not very

Corey 8:56

very different from when we talk about ballot questions and and you are losing when you're playing the other guy's game the other guy picks that game because they're good at it don't play their game play your own game and um this this was just this was bad judgment beyond

Zain 9:12

beyond anything else can

Zain 9:13

can we say that you guys have landed in no longer doing rallies that maybe experiment with with other tactics, but don't, to Corey's point, make it to apples to oranges. To Carter's point, you're no longer allowed to do rallies in the conventional form.

Carter 9:29

You can do the second biggest rally ever in Canadian political history, but if Polyev has done one that's bigger, it no longer counts, right? So you have to drop the tactic. The

Carter 9:40

The tactic is not yours to win. Change the rules of the game, right? If you play the rule, if you you keep playing politics by the opposition's rules, you lose politics. You got to change the rules of the game. And that's what successful campaigns have been doing forever. And Sharae's campaign, and we'll get down to 0.6 at some point, but Sharae's campaign does not appear to be successful.

Zain 10:06

Corey, you want to react to that before we move on to the next one?

Corey 10:08

one? Let's move on. I agree with all of that. I think that a lot of what I want to say actually more naturally falls into some of the other categories you got coming here perfect

Zain 10:16

perfect let's let's go into campaign leaders let's go actually go into media relations i want to jump to campaign leadership too we won't carter media relations i'm going to start with you on this what is the campaign's new rule that you are crafting or starting to craft tonight on media relations and let me let me talk to you about at least one i think i flipped this over to you guys i may not have but it was a cdc article about jean charre's campaign and the headline image the preview image if you share it on social media, or if you kind of just go to the website, was literally Jean Charest sitting on a couch that was meant for like four to five people by himself.

Zain 10:50

And to me, that seems like clearly a broader optics problem, which is what we're trying to remedy tonight. But there also seems to be a media relations issue or problem or snag. Carter, start crafting for us tonight the new rule for the Charest campaign on media relations. What is it in your mind?

Carter 11:09

think photos first right so think of the photograph and the outcome from the photograph first um one of the the primary pieces of of media relations you know like the average quote in media relations right now is about six six to eight seconds long right so the average quote you know it's like our podcast isn't quotable uh because we do long sentences we do long long discussions. Um, this is some

Carter 11:33

some of us do. Yeah,

Carter 11:34

but that's right. Yeah.

Corey 11:37

I'm sorry. I'm sure you were going to get to a point at some point down the road there, Stephen, keep going.

Carter 11:42

Photo, take the photo first, right? What is the photograph going to actually look like? Because that's the thing that actually will matter. And he's got the answers. He can talk about history. He can talk about the conservative movement. He can talk about what the conservative party needs to be. He's got all of that, but he's getting killed on on photographs, whether it's the hostage video that he used to launch himself or the I can't believe I'm all alone on this bench picture that you're talking about right now. All of his photographs. I think if you if you Google search his

Carter 12:13

his images, you can't find a single good image that is run in a newspaper. And it's not like, you know, sometimes newspapers and will and television stations will pick bad photographs to run with their stories. You know, it kind of mood fits right they find the photograph that mood fits these aren't mood fit photographs these are photographs that are being taken in real time to match with the actual you know interviews and it's all people are seeing people are seeing charrette literally look like a loser literally

Carter 12:46

literally look like a loser and that's the media that he's getting photos first okay

Zain 12:50

okay so visuals photos first that's the media relations rule that carter wants to put on the table core either mold that or add Oh, I would add to it. I think

Corey 12:58

think it's fine. I don't agree with everything he said. I do think what you described as these mood fit photos, that's a lot of his problem right now. We talk about the stink of his campaign. So the photos that correspond with these stories, they're going to have some stink. That's just how it's going to be because that's how you put a nice little bundle together if you're putting a story together in the media. You want to show Sheree alone on a couch, not with the conservative membership yet. He's not getting the crowds that Polyev is getting. That makes sense. That's photography that seems sensible. But, you know, we're talking about media relations. You have social media as a separate thing. But in some ways, I think this is part of their problem. They are still thinking

Corey 13:35

about things in terms of how we used to manage media relations in 1997. And this is

Zain 13:41

is where I want to go in some ways.

Corey 13:43

it's 2022. So there's a couple of things I would say about that. one is there are the opportunities for the more in-depth conversations um not our podcast because we've never had guests in our life but there are people who allow you to sit and have long form and have those those kind of drawn out conversations uh there is the opportunity to um blur the line between what's media relations and social media i'm not really seeing any of that i'm seeing a very pat approach to it a very standard

Zain 14:10

standard what do you mean blur the lines what does what does that that mean cory give me a sense of that well you

Corey 14:13

you invite the media to something that is also an event that's designed to have those optics that you're then in turn going to be using on social media right so maybe it is broadcast

Carter 14:21

broadcast the full interview right

Carter 14:23

right live facebook live the full interview instead of just the pick right the ctv is going to broadcast where they're going to broadcast why don't you live broadcast the whole fucking interview well

Corey 14:32

well maybe you get away with that maybe you don't i can see that antagonizing some people if they think they'd have scoops but invite

Corey 14:37

invite them to a jean charie bar night that kind of confounds their expectations has a bunch of of young people who are excited about it take

Corey 14:44

take them out door knocking what we've all we've talked about the perils of the door knocking approach but but

Corey 14:49

do it in an area that is like just intrude like go to papineau and door knock a neighborhood and just show that at the door you can win anywhere if you have jean charre on your side whatever your campaign message is you can play with those things but those are also things you can then rebundle and put into social media and say we hit 500 doors and papineau tonight and you know the response was wild that the doors Whereas Canadians are ready to

Corey 15:13

to put behind themselves the cronyism and the corruption of the Trudeau years and have sensible conservative government, whatever it is. But the point I would say is it's not just a series of line

Corey 15:24

line up interview A, do interview A, line up interview B, do interview B.

Carter 15:30

I think that one of the things that's missing on this, and it's kind of to all of your points, is the tactics need to support the story, right? Right now, the tactics don't support the story. and and they had their original story of victory right built to win want to win yeah built to win if you want to win you got to elect charrette and

Carter 15:48

all of their tactics everything every single tactic that they've chosen to this point appears to be showing a loser literally showing a loser so the tactics aren't matching with the story so you have to change the the the tactics because

Carter 16:02

because you can't change your story you can't change well you know you know

Zain 16:06

know what built to come from

Carter 16:06

from just joking yeah

Carter 16:09

built to maybe lose you know like that's really not the story you want to tell so i think that this the the the tactics need to support the message more the the story can i

Zain 16:19

i can i cory i want to close the bracket i won't let you do that but can i ask you to reflect on something carter's mentioned here as a zoom out before we kind of go back to the particulars here yeah

Zain 16:29

yeah can you change your campaign story

Corey 16:31

story in between yeah

Zain 16:34

so like let's talk about that as like a a pullout before we kind of end and this this media relations conversation with our crystallized rules why of course i mean look

Corey 16:43

look it's hard because in theory if you're running a good campaign you didn't just come up with the story on the spot but that story was driven by data you have aligned pieces you've built your campaign team to do the tactics that reinforce the story in

Corey 16:57

in theory in practice that doesn't always happen and sometimes you need to have a pivot sometimes there are hard meetings where they say okay this

Corey 17:05

this isn't working you

Corey 17:06

you know we've we've got to change the plan here and we've got to go in a different direction and those are never comfortable meetings and rarely do those meetings then result in election right but sometimes they do and uh and

Corey 17:18

and it takes real courage to say okay what we're doing right now is not working and sticking to the plan is a suicide plan it's not a plan for victory so

Corey 17:27

so sure you can absolutely do it but in a funny way this is a good pull out because most of your list well in some ways i think your list is almost backwards because campaign leadership is near the end of it yeah

Zain 17:37

yeah i i you you could argue it should be the first thing to talk about and might procure more of the problems well on the list downstream but

Corey 17:44

but ultimately what you do with rallies what you do with media what you do with social media what you do with campaign leadership all of these things flow from strategy and so you've got to make sure that they're aligned to it. Let's put it this way. If Jean Charest's strategy was,

Corey 18:00

I am going to show that I can bring the most enthusiastic people into the room, you can't give up rallies, right? That would be so fatal to your strategy. That would require you to change your strategy or find a way to fill those fucking rooms. And

Corey 18:16

And so, I mean, that's the conversation and that's the flow that needs to happen in a functioning campaign. Okay,

Zain 18:21

Okay, let's talk about this, Carter, then like you know we will we'll put a pin in media relations for a second to cory's point if

Zain 18:27

if you're put taking rallies off the table right

Zain 18:29

right and you're built to win yeah

Zain 18:32

yeah wreck reconcile wreck yeah okay so exactly no like help me chiro practically reconcile built to win and we are no longer going to show massive groups of enthusiastic people they weren't there to begin with to in a defense, supporting us. How are you reconciling those two things, Carter?

Carter 18:53

It's never been about winning where these massive groups are being pulled together.

Carter 18:57

Winning is about being in Quebec, being in Atlantic Canada. Winning is about being in Southern Ontario.

Carter 19:02

Winning is about being in the places that we haven't been able to get traction, getting traction.

Carter 19:07

And the way that we do that, we don't do that by doing a massive rally. We do that by reaching out to people who used to be there with us, that used to support us, and we get together with them in small groups in living rooms. We get together with them in in small groups and coffee shops. We get together with them. We make phone calls. We do it the old fashioned way because it turns out nothing is new in politics. There's all these new political rules and tactics and all of those types of things. But at the end of the day, it all boils down to the relationship you have with the voters and you cannot write off half the country and expect to win the election.

Carter 19:41

That's how you say, I can drop all of these tactics because these These tactics aren't working for me, but I can show that there are other tactics. And then you can point to all kinds of other campaigns. No one who's campaigned in the last two years has done large rallies. How did John Horgan win? By

Carter 19:59

By relationships, right? How did Jody Gondek win? Relationships. How did Amarjeet Sohi win? Relationships that were developed at a time we couldn't even do rallies, right?

Carter 20:09

right? How did Justin Trudeau kick our ass? By being popular in places we weren't popular. popular places we used to be popular when i was leader that's

Carter 20:17

that's how we win cory

Corey 20:19

cory react to that i

Corey 20:20

i think that's fine but in some ways that's a pivot off of what he originally seemed to mean by that winning strategy that built to win strategy right because his his well maybe maybe he was just

Carter 20:30

just trying to pivot time maybe well sure and this is almost pivot time if

Carter 20:33

you want to open the

Zain 20:34

the doors in the and the and the blue tories didn't run in like i think that's what ended up happening yeah

Corey 20:39

yeah so if if you want to win, it's time to be normal again,

Corey 20:41

right? It's great that he's filling those rooms with those people.

Corey 20:46

If you want Canada to go down the road of the United States, but if you want Canada to be that severely normal, middle of the road Commonwealth country, Jean Charest is your guy.

Zain 20:56

Okay, let's hold on because that's message and that story and that's next.

Zain 21:00

Let's wrap up the rules on media relations, right? So just to summarize, we've got our no longer allowed to do rallies slash apples to oranges comparison on rallies we've got that sort of rule crystallized what

Zain 21:12

what is the rule that we want to have for media relations i got carter's think visuals first i got cory's rules about opportunities for in-depth conversations focus on those blur the lines of media relations social media intermediate media etc uh design those for optics uh show that that you can win in other ways is there anything else we want to add to the to the where this is going out tonight you know at midnight tonight we hit send on this email to all the organizers to all six of them i

Corey 21:41

i mean i i worked with steven i feel like i'm the guy who's gonna have to write this at the end of the day you're gonna have it

Carter 21:45

it done before tomorrow morning um needs to go with that being said cory put that put that hat back on i'll get zane to

Zain 21:51

to do it yeah

Zain 21:52

yeah you'll get an 80 percent of the way there uh wrap the bow on this is there anything else you want to add to to crystallize this or underline Corian media relations we've removed to messaging and handlers and such before that.

Corey 22:04

Yeah, again, and I'm not trying to be curt or snarky, but I would get somebody who has a much more modern view of media relations involved more deeply than it appears they have at this point. It does feel a little bit old school. And it's time to at least play with new school and see what you could potentially do with media relations that that goes further further afield than ctv global cbc and the like new

Zain 22:28

new school on media relations carter what else you're adding or what else do you want to clarify or underline i

Carter 22:34

just think that i i just want to add to one of the things that cory said i mean i do think that he should do literally every podcast right every political podcast across the country except ours uh because i think that you

Carter 22:46

you know we don't need another guy frankly we're good yeah

Zain 22:48

yeah i mean three white dudes we don't need another uh

Zain 22:52

our next one, Corey.

Zain 22:53

Handlers and Aids. Now, there's a reason I put this one on there. It kind of goes to the visuals of the last one. He kind of seems alone all the time.

Zain 23:02

It was from him at the Halifax Airport in Nova Scotia, looking for his baggage, one of the first days of the campaign as it launched. This clip, it just seems like no one is around him. And it seems awkward from a visual perspective. So I want to see if you've got a new rule for Jean Charest could be as simple as you better fucking have people around you, but around handlers, aides, new rule on that for you, Corey, what do you want to start with?

Corey 23:31

Well, maybe the nuts and bolts are that broken and that's a big challenge for him. Maybe his handlers aren't doing a very good job, but I think that is one of the hardest things to assess from a distance, right? I

Corey 23:42

I don't know what kind of relationships he's got, whether they are pulling people towards him, whether they know the names of the people that he's talking to. that's entirely beyond my reach it's definitely the case that he's allowed himself to get into uh it feels like a disproportionate number of those photographs but let's be clear if

Corey 24:00

if you are looking for that photograph that as carter put it that mood fit and

Corey 24:05

and you're following a guy for an hour you're

Corey 24:07

you're gonna get that photograph you're

Zain 24:09

you're gonna get that

Corey 24:09

that photograph if you want to so it's

Corey 24:11

it's it's not entirely clear to me that's the challenge now if he's out there 99 minutes out out of a hundred looking like he's lost and sad. Yeah. You've got a problem with handlers, but I just, I can't assess that

Corey 24:22

from where I am.

Zain 24:23

am. I guess, I guess it kind of, you're right, Corey, it plays into a story because Carter said he looks like a loser. I'd add, he also looks kind of like a loner if you want to add those two into the mix. And I guess maybe rather than what needs to be rectified, maybe I should ask you guys, what are your conventional rules around handlers and eights for the principal or for the candidate Carter? Well, you know, how do you, and how have you historically ensured your candidate going

Zain 24:48

going into a crowd, going into an event doesn't look like a loser or a loner in a sense. So talk to me about that from a baseline perspective. And then we could see if there's any adjustments needed to be made for the Charest campaign.

Carter 25:00

I think that there's an actual formula that it's worked for Jean Charest.

Carter 25:03

Jean Charest is not an unknown politician. He's not someone who's just magically appearing out of nowhere. he has always been accompanied by his wife and when his wife is with him uh they are a star couple she

Carter 25:15

she is just as talented as him uh they are uh they look great together in photographs she's yeah you know they they look strong they look like they're well connected and when she's not there he looks weaker um

Carter 25:28

um and that's you

Carter 25:30

know that's one way that he's done it in the past and i would suggest that that is the way that they should be uh pulling this back out i mean I mean, this isn't a new thing. I mean, Joe Clark used to be seen with Maureen McTeer, you know, at every opportunity, every photograph, you know, the best photographs of Joe Clark featured Maureen. You know, some politicians go a different way. You know, other politicians don't include their spouses. But in this particular case, they have been a political partnership and that political partnership pays dividends. And talk about an easy way to get out from this story, but just by putting her in the photographs, if she's with him, it makes sense. If you're trying to do this with handlers, it doesn't make sense,

Carter 26:12

right? Like a 23 year old, uh, woman who's, you know, with him carrying his bag looks shitty. Um, a 23 year old boy, you know, male, you're doing that as well. Doesn't look like you've got the star team. Um, maybe, you know, maybe put Mike Coates with him more frequently. This is actually my question. Tasha Carradine with him more frequently. This

Zain 26:31

This was actually going to be my question, because I had age, diversity, question mark. Is the optics of handlers, does he want to contrast with, hey, I've got young people on my team, this is vibrant, there's a vitality to this thing, there's maybe even an explicit diversity to it, or does he want to go into more of the gray hair, old school way of doing this, Carter, from your perspective?

Carter 26:57

Well, I mean, I think that his I think that your

Carter 27:00

your past new now, right? Like if he came in and he was always surrounded by, you know, like the Patrick Brown strategy, right? Patrick Brown strategy is I'm going to go into all the visible minority groups. I'm going to show the strength and power that I have within those visible minority groups. If he had done that, that

Carter 27:16

that could have worked really well. He chose not to. now anything you do that isn't dropping his wife in is going to look like a play dropping his wife in does look like a play too but at least it's a standard play that people expect so you may as well go back to the standard play that people people expect cory

Zain 27:33

cory i want your thoughts on this

Corey 27:35

here's what i can say about a handler most of the time the job of a handler is more pulling the

Corey 27:41

the principal away from people than it is finding them especially if you you're like a former premier or something like that right yeah there should be no problem with people wanting to come up and fill the space around him and ask him questions and talk to him here and you can't tell me that people aren't coming up to him and you can't

Corey 27:57

uncomfortable enough that he would just sit back and not go and have those conversations he's not a faceless backbencher nervous of his own shadow who's just been elected for the first time he's so seasoned he's been involved in quebec politics forever i mean the guy was at one point like what the the youngest cabinet minister ever and his late 20s yeah

Corey 28:16

yeah and now and now he is uh you know he's got all of those years of experience in between from being leader of the pcs premier of quebec and everything in between so i

Corey 28:26

don't know i like i just sort of almost fundamentally reject that the problem is he can't find people to be around right uh and if he's not i don't think he needs to roll with an entourage he's a he's a well-known politician in terms of what that dynamic should look like Like in terms of the handlers who are with them and what have you, I

Corey 28:44

I sure wouldn't go overboard with it. Do you want to have three people rolling with them at all of the time? No, there's going to be one

Corey 28:50

one aide who's there who's assisting at any given time.

Corey 28:55

But again, this goes back to, I just can't really assess it from the outside. I'm trying to imagine a scenario where it is the handler's fault, right? Like saying, excuse me, Mr. Charest, I've just got to go to Alamo and get our rental car. I forgot to get one before we go. Right. You just stay here. You stay here and try to try to look inconspicuous. Right. Try to look awkward if you can. Like, how

Zain 29:16

how is it their fucking

Corey 29:17

fucking fault? It's not their fault. Like, you know, this is like one of these fifth order of facts. If the campaign is having problems on this front. different

Corey 29:25

carter you you put your hand you want

Zain 29:26

want to respond to this yeah

Carter 29:28

yeah i mean i just think that you know anything

Carter 29:30

anything too dramatic is going to be seen like the

Carter 29:34

the last thing you want to do is put him in you know everywhere he arrives there's going to be six people you know like he arrives at the airport and there's six people oh yay you know cheering and those types of things that sounds fucking tragic

Carter 29:47

yeah the simplest the simplest thing is to is to go back to basics right um and i would suggest the two simple the two things that would look the best is either put him with tasha you know who's campaign co-chair and emphasize and she's been emphasized through the media but she's not been with him or put him with his wife both of those are better photographs than the ones that you're getting and both of them having them kind of in the same frame both make sense i

Zain 30:15

i think we've got our rule cory will fix this up for us right he'll He'll just type it one out later. He'll fix it up in entity. He'll do a nice little deck. It'll be nice little graphics for us in the morning. It'll be amazing. The

Carter 30:24

The deck will have nothing to do with the discussion. I'll just have to fucking wing it. Because

Carter 30:28

Because the graphic will show up. The Cray supercomputer. And I'll just be like, that makes sense. Carter will present the deck tomorrow morning.

Zain 30:34

morning. Carter will actually do a presentation.

Carter 30:37

Hawks are beating the Sydney Swans. And I'm not sure what to do with

Zain 30:40

with it right now. Neither do I. I mean, listen, it's confusing me just as much. Every Anzac Day, am I right? Every Anzac

Zain 30:45

Anzac Day. Did you know Barry Season 3 is coming out? Just so you guys know. Torrey, message. You guys have hit on this, and I actually want to start with story. You said it's possible to change the story. You even hinted at what that new Jean Charest story should be. Yeah, built to win is the slogan, etc. But there's a story around sanity versus insanity that you started to go on. I don't want to lead you down there, but if you're going there, what's the rule for the Charest campaign you're putting in the memo tonight around our story? And if I can say story slash ballot box question. What is something you're now getting me as an organizer receiving this memo today to say, this is what I need you to snap into focus about what we're trying to do here?

Corey 31:22

Yeah, I think there are ways you can nudge it, still playing with it. But the idea of built to win, yes, we want a party built to win. We want a country built to win. We can't go down the path the United States has gone on here. We need pragmatic government, not government by

Corey 31:38

by shitpost, not government by angry meme, not government by how can i get on the front page of uh what is that uh you know the rebel i suppose it's not the one i was reaching for but it'll do so

Zain 31:54

-millennial that's exactly what i was going for thank you so

Corey 31:56

so yeah that that's the that's the nudge that's the slight pivot i wouldn't use built to win anymore i would talk a lot more about uh uh you know being a uh you know, I

Corey 32:07

I wouldn't use the word moderate, but I would say pragmatic government for the people or something to that effect.

Zain 32:14

Carter, what's the story in the ballot box question you're trying to frame now in that memo tonight to all organizers, all leadership in the campaign?

Carter 32:23

I think it's victory. So the built to win was originally described as kind of how he could win the leadership, or I'm sorry, how he would win the next election, right? And that next election was kind of this, this far away thing that, that maybe didn't capture people's attention. Now it's about how will I actually win? And I think I can incorporate the message that, that Corey is talking about as well, which is, you know, this is about sanity. This is about, you know, do we want to be Le Pen who,

Carter 32:53

who, you know, great, grew the vote, but lost. The conservatives that have moved to the right, moved to the right, moved to the right to win those leaderships have lost every single time. right? We haven't won since Stephen Harper and Stephen Harper didn't move. Stephen Harper was Stephen Harper. We need someone who's not doing that. We need someone who understands how to win in Quebec. We need someone who understands victory, period.

Carter 33:19

And that's what we need to put together. So it's not a story now built to win. It's a story of victory. I can win this leadership. If I win this leadership, I can win the election. Because they assumed this first one before now i'm not letting them assume it anymore look

Zain 33:37

look crystallize it a bit more for me in the document is the phrase is a confidential document multiple passwords in the is the phrase our ballot box question is dot dot dot complete that sentence for me carter

Carter 33:56

ballot box question is

Carter 34:01

conservative party want to win elections, period, question

Carter 34:07

right? If you want to win elections and you have to pick John Charest or someone like him, but you can't pick Pierre Palliev. And the reason for that, the answer is, and the answer can be, do

Carter 34:18

do you want to win or do you want to be insane?

Carter 34:21

I mean, you could, it in fact build it that way and

Carter 34:23

and to incorporate some of you know like so my joe clark question in 2001 or whatever it was 2000 was do you want the right honorable joe clark or what's his name you can build a what an either or question into your ballot box question it can work so it could be do you want um what's his name by the way eric lowther i do know his name is literally

Corey 34:46

literally or what's his name um

Carter 34:49

this could be do you want to do you want to position the the Conservative Party for victory? Or do you want to continue with four more years of insanity?

Zain 34:55

react to that. And then that same question to you in this confidential memo,

Zain 34:59

our ballot box question is dot, dot, dot.

Zain 35:02

Partisans, do you want to win? Or do you want to be insane? Or do you want a form of insanity to continue?

Zain 35:07

What's yours? What are you building off of what you

Corey 35:10

Are we fighting to win the extremes or to win government or some version of that? And I think in there is a lot of the sentiments sentiments that Stephen's

Corey 35:20

And it builds off of some of the things Sheree said in terms of it should be disqualifying to hang out with people who say they want to overturn an elected government. It should be disqualifying to suggest that you're going to break down all of the barriers that exist between politicians and the central bank, for example. But

Corey 35:39

But here we are, we are in extreme times where there are people who are more enthusiastic

Corey 35:45

enthusiastic about winning the praise and the applause of extremists in the united states and europe than they are about winning the government of canada that's

Zain 35:58

like that carter yep

Carter 36:01

carter i need it's a little longish but

Corey 36:06

tighten it up yeah

Zain 36:07

carter will be doing a a powerpoint uh webinar for all patreon subscribers uh tomorrow morning so if they uh they increase i'm just committing you to this carter you're not doing

Carter 36:16

doing it no but

Zain 36:17

but you won't show up just

Carter 36:18

just the just the advisors to quarter carter and cory uh we should

Zain 36:23

we should actually create a new category called advisors to charrette might be a quicker way for him to get some advice okay

Zain 36:30

i need to i need to have your thoughts on another part of the message which is charrette's been playing a bit of pundit himself at least i've noticed it this way carter i'll start with you on this he's been his his message on uh paul Polyev's rally size has been, well,

Zain 36:45

well, Maxime Bernier had big rallies, and we've seen that being the frontrunner isn't necessarily favorable, if you look back on history. How did that turn out for Maxime Bernier? It's kind of a, I guess it makes sense, but it's a line that perhaps the one of the three of us would say, if we were stumping for Charest as a pundit or as a surrogate, what do you kind of think his line on his shield, and

Zain 37:06

and perhaps turning it into a sword on message should be around uh all the advantages that polyev has and

Zain 37:13

and what his campaign should be saying so if you're crystallizing constructing something for the team tonight say guys this is your sword and your shield when asked about rally size and why is our why ours are so anemic or asked about social media and why are social media capacities so shit what are you kind of inserting on that side of things for the troops carter uh to communicate to them as a rule tonight the

Carter 37:37

the The problem with populism is it goes to where the people already are. I mean, you can draw a big, big rally. I mean, there was a lot of people who went to the truckers rally. There's a lot of people who went to the anti-vaccination rallies. There's a lot of people who've been protesting every weekend. Pierre Pauliev drawing those people who are already going to those things out to a rally. This is not a surprise. They've been going to rallies for a year and a half, but those people are isolated. Those

Carter 38:03

Those people aren't the majority. If you want to reach the majority, you don't try and do a rally to bring them out.

Carter 38:11

out. You reach them in the small groups. You reach them where they are. Campaigning where people live and work and play, that's the politics of power. What Pierre's doing is the politics of populism. That type of populist politics doesn't generate actual good government. Politics

Zain 38:28

Politics of power versus the politics of populism. I like that.

Zain 38:33

Corey, if you are adding a note to what Carter said or molding a bit of what Carter said in that memo tonight for the troops regarding our rally size and our social media presence, what are you telling them? What's our line? What's our angle on this?

Corey 38:47

If your pitch is to have a reasonable, sensible government, then reasonable, sensible people will do what makes sense, which is engage in a less histrionic way. I mean, this is a big country. And if you take an extreme position, extremists are going to show up in droves, because there's only so many avenues for them to do so. And Pierre Polyev is playing with fire right now. We're not playing with fire. We're fighting for government. We're fighting for the soul of this country.

Zain 39:14

Nicely done. I'm going to move it on to our next one. And Corey, I want to start with you. Social media. The rule for Sharae tonight to send out to his troops on social media might be a rule about here's what we do going forward. It might be a rule to justify our anemic social media presence. To me, it kind of ties back to rallies. Pierre-Paul LeRoy is killing it on rallies. So to Carter's point, do you just can social media? Do you not do it? Do you downplay it? Do you de-emphasize it? what's your rule or message to the troops tonight uh when you're constructing this for social media cory so

Corey 39:46

social media is really interesting and um when

Corey 39:52

when you have a big communications team one of the challenges you always have is where do you put social media because there's

Corey 39:57

there's this classic division of communications channels between earned paid and owned you may be familiar with so earned is if you go out and that's the pr and it's getting the the media to come uh you you know, write about the things that you're doing. Paid is obviously advertising and owned would be the content you write. That's, you know, often called content marketing as well, where

Corey 40:17

your website is full of things, that's communications. People might want to come to that. That would be owned content. The farmer's almanac was owned content.

Corey 40:26

you know, the Michelin guide owned content. They put out these guides, people come, they get exposed to your brand.

Zain 40:33

when you think about social media, where does it go?

Corey 40:35

Could be earned, right? Could, Could for sure be earned. It has an awful lot in common with the media, which is you're trying to get an audience to engage with it and propagate your story further. Could be paid because a lot of social media these days is boosted, even partially. So you put something out and you put at least a few dollars behind it. And for sure could be owned because it's literally just the content that then becomes the body for something else, right?

Corey 40:58

So when we talk about his social media strategy, I would almost want to divide it a little bit further and not talk about it so plainly as social. Yeah, let's

Zain 41:05

do it. would be

Corey 41:06

be i would be talking about paid a lot in the context of social and i would be boosting towards people who are not engaged on political hashtags no ab ledge no cdn poly but

Corey 41:15

but things that are more uh more middle of the road and more more severely normal i think than the political hashtags um uh

Corey 41:23

uh when we talk about owned i would think of content that reinforced that message which of course becomes the base for all of those paid efforts and i would care a lot less about out virality and earned, and I would almost try to make it a virtue. I would take on perhaps social media more generally and say, one of the problems is social media gets this really nasty feedback, which has led the conservatives down a bad road. I'm not playing that game.

Corey 41:45

I think there's a place for social media. There's obviously a place for community. I'm willing to engage in that context, but I'm not just going to dial

Corey 41:52

dial the outrage machine up to 11

Zain 41:54

11 to feed the algorithm

Corey 41:55

get a bunch of likes, which mean nothing. They're superficial. They're a bunch of extremists who at the end of the day, already know exactly how they're voting.

Corey 42:04

And that is how I would talk about social media if I was the charade camp.

Zain 42:07

Carter, Corey's given us almost a bit of a 101 on perhaps how to battle Pierre's populism online, go after the severely normal folks on paid, on owned, not going viral virtue in some ways, and then talk perhaps about the perils of social media in a sense.

Zain 42:26

Am I getting the sense you're going to double down on Corey's perspective? Are you you going to try to push

Zain 42:31

push your own set of rules for

Zain 42:32

for for the troop tonight on social media i'm

Carter 42:35

i'm going to try and be effective um so i'll be different yeah

Zain 42:40

keep going what do you what do

Carter 42:41

do you see where this

Zain 42:42

this goes cory said i'm curious to hear what you say i'll i'll

Carter 42:44

i'll be judged i mean

Zain 42:45

mean i'll be judging jury this

Carter 42:46

this is a man this is a man with no passion this is a man with no i mean if you look at this right

Zain 42:51

right here sorry either way

Carter 42:53

way either way they're interchangeable um

Carter 42:56

think that the problem that he's got right now is he's putting out

Carter 43:00

you know i mean his tweets make you want to hurt yourself i mean they are so boring they're just boring boring boring i mean the only thing about them is that they're in both official languages um what i'd like to see him do is they're boring in both official languages

Zain 43:13

languages carter okay i

Carter 43:14

i don't know i can't read i can't read english um but if you if you if you double Double down and instead say, okay, let's

Carter 43:22

let's go back to this insanity model, right? Why don't we take on some of the insane pieces? Why don't we get passionate about those things that are crazy that Pierre Polyev is talking about? Why don't we make fun of it a little bit? Why don't we go after him and say, you know what, the Bitcoin bros aren't going to be the ones to carry the conservative party to victory, right?

Carter 43:44

right? Sure, the Bitcoin bros will come out to your rally. Uh, they're thrilled to be there, but they're not the ones who actually are going to carry the party to victory. Like go after some of these things, show some passion, string a few tweets together that actually tell a story that support your idea that insanity isn't the way to go. And you don't have to do it in a fashion that, that chases engagement. You can simply chase, uh, logic and rationale, right? Because rational thought is what you're actually aiming for. So why not tear apart some of the illogical elements that are coming out of Pierre? Why not show some passion? Why not at least pull the stick out of your bag and show that you can hit someone about the head of it? Because you ain't got nothing to lose. He's not going to be sticking around in the party if Pierre Polyev wins. So why not take a fucking round out of him and see if it actually works? And social media is the place to get it, to do it, because it will, to Corey's point, it will generate tons of earned media. yeah cory

Zain 44:43

cory what do you think of carter's idea of uh i don't even know what it is brilliant i mean

Carter 44:49

in some ways you guys are telling no

Corey 44:52

we're not saying yeah

Corey 44:53

i think there's an opportunity listen if you want to do that you can do that it would be really interesting to see if polyev takes the bait or not uh if i were sitting then on his side i would say don't

Corey 45:03

don't right like there's no point in swinging at him but uh but

Corey 45:06

but yeah i i mean there's i i it's amusing to me there's obviously a fundamental hypocrisy here because you're saying i will not engage in outrage and then of course you're going to effectively

Corey 45:16

effectively fucking troll this guy say

Carter 45:17

say we didn't say that he would engage in outrage i was okay right

Corey 45:21

right but it will probably work it will probably work so the question then just becomes do you have the discipline to follow up and can you signal enough to your team that you don't want them going down some shitholes with these people but rather just Just put your thing out, have a million people jump onto them, including perhaps some of some of the more extreme crypto bros that Carter was talking about. But just let it hang out there. Let it hang out there and have normal people who look in, see Polyev says something, Sharae replies directly underneath it, and a million lunatics pile on from Polyev's side. That's that's cool. But make sure your lunatics don't don't follow suit.

Zain 46:00

Carter, I'm going to go to campaign leadership and I'm going to start with you. What's the note tonight on campaign leadership? The note can simply be, here's what we're doing with campaign leadership, i.e. we've got a shakeup happening. Here's how we're newly structuring our campaign. It could be one of many things. I've left it vague and I've left it open for you, Carter. What would you, if you were recommending a move on campaign leadership tonight in a memo, what would you be suggesting?

Carter 46:26

I'm an external consultant or am I the existing guy? You're

Zain 46:30

You're an external consultant. you've been hired for for an hour you've got 10 minutes left on your contract yeah

Carter 46:35

yeah the guy who the guy who led kevin o'leary's campaign to dropping out isn't the guy who's going to lead you to victory it's time for new campaign leadership it is absolutely time to signal and do it publicly make sure that you know like you don't fire anybody on a campaign except the top guy top guy's going to take you know take a walk because this is a campaign that is going going nowhere and you need to resurrect it. And you only have a few more weeks to sell some memberships that are actually going to be the, you

Carter 47:04

you know, the thing that matters, right? And getting those memberships sold in the right places. Uh, Kevin O'Leary's team, you know, isn't

Carter 47:10

isn't the team that's going to take you there. Uh, they've taken you to this place and this place is worse than when you started. When you started, you had a chance. Now you're in a place where you don't even have a fucking chance. So, you know, my

Carter 47:22

my rates, by the way, doubled since the last time we talk but

Carter 47:26

if you're going to give me a call um i'll give you my you know send me a note on send me a dm but right now i honestly do think that you got to make someone walk the plank and it's not going to be dash and it's not going to be coats it's got to be the actual campaign leadership so

Carter 47:40

so get those campaign leader you know get someone new in who's going to resurrect and give hope to the crew right i think that that's you know i remember doing a speech once to the the bc liberal party uh before christy clark's last election where she won um

Carter 47:54

um you know barely uh but she won and you

Carter 47:58

you know the the topic of the conversation was you know don't worry about the polls you can still win and this was right after my election in 2012 where we you know which was by the way the 10-year anniversary this week oh congratulations yeah

Carter 48:11

yeah that's the day i got fired anyways um the

Carter 48:14

the the point of the exercise is that you need to give the troops hope right

Carter 48:20

right and this is why you have to ask someone to walk the plank cory

Zain 48:23

cory are you asking someone to walk the plank is that the rule tonight is that the note under campaign leadership tonight at the bottom of that memo is that ps by the way we're getting a new campaign manager is that what you're endorsing tonight um

Corey 48:37

you've got to be very careful with that because of course it can also look like the team is shrinking or the team is falling apart and it can add chaos and that's not always good. We've talked about this, not recently, but years ago, we used to talk about how people don't often get fired from these jobs. What happens is all of a sudden there's just somebody else with an additional job, right? So it's- Your

Zain 48:59

gets restructured in that way, exactly.

Corey 49:00

exactly. We're bringing in another co-chair or now we've got a chief engagement officer who also reports to the co-chairs parallel to the campaign manager or the campaign manager is now the the vice chair of the campaign is going to focus on those large donors and building those connections with community blank, wherever they came from. And day to day, we're going to have operations move to this new person who's coming in here. And, uh, you know, they've really done a great job on this small digital thing. And we're looking to expand that out to the entire campaign. So rather than it looking like a campaign shrinks with the termination, the campaign morphs,

Corey 49:32

morphs, the campaign grows, maybe even. And, uh, if you can point to somebody who's had success on the campaign that people acknowledge within the campaign has gone well,

Corey 49:41

And then either promote

Corey 49:43

promote them because they've shown a competency that you would like to see more of or expand that function in its size and delivery. So imagine, for example, if it was online ads and you were only putting about 5% of your spend on online ads, well,

Corey 49:56

well, now they're a more senior role and it's going to be 40%, whatever

Corey 50:00

whatever the case may be. but there are ways that you sell the

Corey 50:03

the new person coming in uh not as a firing uh steven's thing

Corey 50:09

when you do that you are saying i want to signal that there is a shake-up a big shake-up and there is a lot of risk in taking that approach there's

Carter 50:18

risk but i think that i think that this is the time to do it for sure he is

Carter 50:21

is literally nowhere and they need to send a signal to the media and to the people if we go back to our you need to show that you can win you

Carter 50:28

you need to send that signal. I totally agree that that signal is not normally sent.

Carter 50:34

We've talked about it a couple of times, in a couple of different contexts, but this time I think you actually have to send a signal.

Zain 50:41

You're no longer allowed to do rallies, or if you do, make them an apples-to-oranges comparison with those events that are not called rallies. On media relations, you need someone who's got a modern media relations view, involves something new school, think of the visuals first. On handlers and aides, we're going back to basics here we're either putting the co-chair or his wife alongside with them on message are we fighting to win the extremes or are we fighting to become and win government uh also on the ballot box sort of question that is what we had as a note to the prowess of the social media uh and and the the um the the viral nature of the polyev campaign we're talking about we're here to engage reasonable people we're not fighting to win extremes or fighting to win government this is the politics of power that we're playing not the politics of populism on social media uh we've got you know a couple of points here cory said on paid boost those posts to those to the individuals that are severely normal outside of that political fray on the own side ensure that virality is almost kind of taken as your lack of virality is a badge of honor in some ways you talk about social media as a mechanism you don't want to play to the algorithms that's It's not what you're in it for. You also have Carter adding, you know, add jokes, go after Polyev, tell a story about his insanity. And then on campaign leadership, Corey's saying, be cautious. But Carter is saying it might be time for someone to walk the plank. Corey,

Zain 52:09

Corey, you wanted to add anything there?

Corey 52:12

want to actually change my mind about

Zain 52:13

about something that I said here.

Zain 52:16

Which we're going back to. Well,

Corey 52:17

Well, as you were going through it, we were talking about this idea of promote your paid to the severely normal people. I think that's wrong because

Zain 52:23

because this is a leadership contest and severely normal people don't join leadership

Corey 52:26

leadership contests. So I think the paid needs to focus to perhaps people who are politically engaged, but have not historically been politically engaged with the conservatives. And I think you can sell that broader message between extremism and government

Corey 52:39

government to some of them, but you may even need it between extremism and a Canada that is not extreme, like tailor that message a little bit for people who are perhaps soft liberals, soft new Democrats and just want to see better government. But I guess if I want to make a bigger point on that point, it's that you cannot lose focus with what you're trying to do here, which is to have more people mark a ballot for you at the end of the day through

Corey 53:01

through all of that preferential ballot than market for the other people. So that requires you to think about how things are going to stack together. This is not just a heads up fight between Polyev and Charest.

Corey 53:15

Charest. We talked about this on our Patreon special, you

Corey 53:21

But you've got to consider Patrick Brown's votes. Are you going to pick them up? Or is Leslie Lewis going to go to Polyev? Like, how do those dynamics play out? But

Corey 53:29

you also need to make sure that you're aware.

Corey 53:32

If you go with the strategy that Carter and I have teased out here, you've

Corey 53:37

you've got to get people to buy memberships to support it, right? Because that's

Corey 53:41

how you get government. And so you've still got to focus everything towards that sales funnel. you

Zain 53:46

you know and this was a strategy this was a a memo for the front of house stuff we don't know how things are going under the hood this is really about how this campaign the odor cory to your point the turd vibes that it was given off trying to try to rectify some of that carter uh jean is paying you for a few more minutes here so i want to actually ask about one more rule can i can i ask you guys about one more item on the list which

Zain 54:07

which is yes my lord which is which is debates

Zain 54:12

So the historical rap on Jean Charest, great

Zain 54:17

great debater, great orator. He's just waiting for this. On the other side, you've got Pierre Pallier, arguably one of the best communicators we've seen in politics, regardless if you like him or not.

Zain 54:27

What is the note to the campaign team, the leadership, the troops tonight on debates? It could be about how much stock you're putting in them, how you're looking forward to them as a timeline or milestone marker. But if you're writing a note to campaign leadership tonight, Carter, what are you saying about upcoming debates, which I guess they'll be here in about 10 days or so, if I'm not mistaken.

Carter 54:46

Pierre Polyev needs someone to stand up to him. He cannot continue to just simply be able to spout the bullshit that he's been spouting.

Carter 54:54

We need someone who can stand up to him, correct him when he's wrong and point the better path.

Carter 54:59

And that person is Jean Charest.

Carter 55:01

Because right now, he

Carter 55:02

he goes on a post. He goes out and he tells the people what they want to hear. He goes out and he tells people that, you know, the Bitcoin and cyber money

Carter 55:11

money is going to fix the world. Right. Or he goes out and says that inflation is destroying everything. And it's all Justin Trudeau's fault. And he goes out and just says what people want to hear.

Carter 55:21

Well, it's time that we start thinking about what people need to hear. And that's what the Conservative Party message has always been. The liberals tell people what they want to hear. That's why they always win.

Carter 55:30

Right. We need to tell people the hard truth sometimes, and that's the Conservative Party, and it's time for Daddy to come home.

Carter 55:40

Kind of lost it at the end there, but it's a pretty good comment. Do

Zain 55:43

Do we want to replace Bill to win with do some spanking? Do some spanking, Daddy's home. We're dropping the G on spanking, right, just so we're clear? Oh yeah, we're totally dropping the G. Corey, what's the note you're putting on for debates in the memo tonight? What are you saying to the

Zain 55:59

the troops about debates?

Corey 55:59

Well, the first line is going to say wait 10 minutes to get over that reeling feeling you have of reading carter's note about spanking like i need your full attention on this note spanking

Corey 56:10

spanking i'm sorry yeah

Corey 56:13

here's the thing he's a polly is a debater and he can ring like a fucking bell clear and loud the thing that most impresses me about his campaign is

Corey 56:23

uh is the same thing that impressed me the most about the trump campaign and it gives me kind of a kind of a nervous feeling

Corey 56:30

We all knew what Donald Trump's campaign was about. I

Corey 56:33

I remember when the slogan came out, make America great again, being like, fuck me, that is so stupid, but it's so catchy. And I feel the same way about Polyev and make Canada the freest country on earth. He has a more clearly defined brand before he has the job of leader than Aaron O'Toole got in a year and a half. I that is something and that is really I think a cautionary tale here and and what I would point out is that he knows in the context of that debate his job is for that message to ring through and to fight on his terms and you just scrapping with him in some ways may reinforce some of the some of the messages that he would otherwise have the other thing I need you to know if you're debating Pierre Polyev is he don't fall into a caricature of this guy not only is he good but he can code shift like nobody I've seen in Canadian politics politics

Zain 57:21

politics what do you mean by that explain that to us code shifting is the idea that you can talk to one

Corey 57:25

one group and then you can go and you can talk to a different group and you can pick up their vernacular and their terminology and their tone and their tenor and their temperature on these matters almost

Corey 57:35

absolutely and of course this has often been like a criticism that hillary clinton would almost drop into a southern drawl at certain points right that's kind of an extreme manifestation but code shifting can be as subtle as when you're talking to a banker using banker And when you're

Zain 57:51

you're talking to somebody

Corey 57:51

somebody on the street using,

Corey 57:52

using, you know, mechanic slang or whatever the case may be, depending on who the audience is. And Pierre Poliev is amazing at that.

Corey 58:00

And so you've got to keep that in mind. He's not going to come this fire breathing support of the truckers guy because he knows that's not who the audience is for. You need to remember what you're doing. and

Corey 58:11

and if you're coming there thinking that he's going to sit there and say we should replace the canadian dollar with ethereum you're wrong that is not what that conversation is going to look like it's all going to sound super reasonable so part of your job has to be

Corey 58:24

dragging him into those dark alleys and forcing him either to disavow his supporters from his extremists which will dampen their enthusiasm or

Corey 58:33

or go into it and muddy his message with more mainstream conservatives and if you can get him down that dark alley that's when you need to remind people how insanely unpopular those positions will be with canadians in some ways the the debate with him isn't i think you're wrong it's that

Corey 58:49

that is supported by 10 of canadians that is supported by 15 of canadians that is supported by 30 of canadians but all of them live in alberta and

Corey 58:57

to be making your pitch to that audience that uh you know the choice between going the extremist route or

Corey 59:03

or going the the moderate route that allowed the conservatives to to get overwhelming majority governments in certain situations in the past, like 84.

Corey 59:13

That's the choice in front of them. You've got to keep it on your ballot message, which means you're not fighting about the ideas. You're fighting about the popularity of those ideas.

Zain 59:21

Carter, any final rules you want to add to the board? Are we moving on?

Carter 59:25

No, I think that was good. Corey? I actually like what Corey said. Any other rules? Which is annoying, as

Zain 59:28

as always. Of course it is. Any

Zain 59:30

Any other rules about anything else? We're moving on. we'll do a full debate prep for each of the candidates coming up an entire episode talking about how they all need to prepare carter you're gonna you're gonna lead it you're gonna lead i'm not even gonna be here yeah i'm

Zain 59:41

i'm not even gonna be here i hear nothing from cory we're moving on to our next segment our next segment insane clown posse cory we're talking about alberta politics because an internal feud battering

Zain 59:51

battering alberta's governing party took a new twist after one of premier jason kenney's political staffers went on twitter compared united conservative backbench critics to clowns as according to the cbc that first line right there Corey, this infighting with

Zain 1:00:04

with the same group of MLAs, the Leela Hears, the Angela Pitts, the folks that we've heard bickering against Jason Genney. Let's just do a check-in.

Zain 1:00:16

Is there any movement, I guess? Is there any strategist lens when you got to put the strategist glasses on, which, by the way, aren't on the store yet, but we will get them. Strategist.ca will get glasses made so you can actually wear them, strategist-colored glasses. classes cory

Zain 1:00:30

cory do you see any movement in this gene versus kenny rebels versus kenny um sort of conversation here as we kind of go on and move on and kind of triangulate towards the 18th i kind of use this clown analogy of a political staffer going after the rebels but do you see any movement on this what's what's your take right now all

Corey 1:00:52

all right well let's start with the fundamentals here uh the staffer posted a picture of some clowns rolling around on the ground that picture was was from an episode of the simpsons it was season

Corey 1:01:02

season 6 episode 15 a classic called homie the clown where

Corey 1:01:05

where homer decides that he wants to go to clown college and this is from early in the episode where he just can't get the idea of going to clown college out of his head and

Corey 1:01:14

and so those people rolling around on the ground in the show the joke was those people were actually on fire because homer wasn't doing his job and they needed his help and uh and he was having mass delusions that instead they were clowns so strange metaphor right off the bat because ultimately that

Corey 1:01:30

deep dive cory really appreciate it ultimately what

Corey 1:01:34

what what what they were actually saying was that uh you know these people needed his help and he needed to open up his fucking eyes right so weird we'll start there maybe

Corey 1:01:43

maybe a little beside the point maybe

Corey 1:01:45

maybe a little maybe thank you

Carter 1:01:47

you cory that is the point that's the point i was gonna make yeah

Corey 1:01:51

let's get to the point there there

Corey 1:01:52

there is i thought we did though i thought that was the point thank you for your contribution cory there's a couple of ways you can read this all right one of them is that they are so confident that the premier is going to win that

Corey 1:02:04

that um that they're willing to to have these fights with these mlas because they know these mlas have no future in this party once uh once jason kenney becomes the leader yeah

Corey 1:02:15

other way to read it is they are falling that to pieces uh and i actually tend to think that they think they've got this just because

Zain 1:02:22

because of the way

Corey 1:02:22

way uh jason kenney is sort of he's

Corey 1:02:24

he's really embraced a bit of a give no fucks attitude in the last bit uh it was interesting because there's been a couple of other counterpoints out there like vito marciano uh had a bit of a tweet thread where effectively he said 62 of the membership is outside of calgary and edmonton that's not good for jason kenney eric is

Corey 1:02:42

going to lose that's a fair point like if that's accurate and i have no way of of validating whether that's accurate then

Corey 1:02:49

then it seems really hard to me to imagine that jason kenney's going to win this thing but i

Corey 1:02:54

guess maybe the easiest way to read this is everybody has lost their mind a bit because they're all in that that boiler uh situation that we talked about this if it wasn't the live show it was just before it i

Corey 1:03:07

i would hate to work in that building right small

Corey 1:03:09

small building tense atmosphere and um these are people that you don't even get to sort of avoid void by going into the other gallery, the other

Corey 1:03:18

other lounge. This is your party. These are people you have to sit next to. You have to be at caucus with.

Corey 1:03:24

God, it must be crazy tense, but it

Corey 1:03:28

it seems like a bit of a breakdown either way. And somebody really needs to have a conversation at some point, probably us, what

Corey 1:03:35

what the hell are political staff doing in Alberta? When did they become players on the field this way? And it's not just this.

Zain 1:03:43

That's where I want to lead to. It's exactly where i'm going here carter let's but tee it up though a response to what cory said and and kind of give me your general we haven't covered all the beats of kenny coming out saying if i lose i'll i'll leave like all the little things that have dripped over the little little bit i pulled this clown one because i thought it'd be a interesting thing for us to talk about but maybe zooming out for a second where's

Zain 1:04:05

where's the movement right now what do you see the state of play uh with kenny v rebels uh right now one

Carter 1:04:11

one of the great tricks in politics is to make something that is old and tired look new and exciting and that happened this week with the exact same people who hated jason kenney two

Carter 1:04:21

two months ago saying that they still hate jason kenney um

Carter 1:04:24

um the only thing that is weird about that is that they still sit in his caucus yeah

Carter 1:04:28

um if they had if they had any real principles while he simultaneously

Zain 1:04:31

simultaneously tells the media that i actually gave these folks too much rope like

Zain 1:04:36

like while he tells them that yeah like at like in the same breath in the same week in the same day arguably you

Carter 1:04:42

can still retain your membership in the united conservative party and step outside of the caucus within the united conservative party uh that is entirely possible um this is a uh if they had principles that they would do so but instead what they're doing is they're they they all said the same things again i mean

Carter 1:05:01

mean in a rick bell column i became music

Carter 1:05:04

yeah, a Rick Bell column? But this is ridiculous. I mean, is it an insane clown posse? Yeah, from both sides. I mean, it's utterly nuts. And to Corey's point, when did the political staff become players on the field? About 1992. Paid staff are on the field, man. they've been on the field since like really since carvel and uh stefanopoulos and probably before that um but the paid staff lee atwater these are people who are on the field when have they started attacking their own team that's new that's different we haven't seen that um

Carter 1:05:47

um so i mean these guys attacking their uh this this may be the most attack i've ever seen and to attack so So there's two attacks that are abnormal. First of all, attacking members

Carter 1:06:01

members of your own team. Totally strange. And secondly, attacking Gen Pop. Generally speaking, staff and government do not attack Gen Pop. But these guys know no limits. They hop on the Twitter and they go after people.

Carter 1:06:19

I don't think it's particularly effective. But, you

Carter 1:06:23

I sometimes hop on Twitter and go after people. So, you know, I'll

Carter 1:06:26

I'll sit in my glass house and await the first stones.

Zain 1:06:29

Great. When did political staffers kind of play on the field in this manner? Do you agree with Carter?

Corey 1:06:35

Yeah. Fucking unreal that Stephen Carter says since 92. But here's two very significant ways that are new and different. I mean, what are you talking about? This is new and different. Them attacking people internally and them attacking the public and having these public personas where they're fighting with other public figures. This is new. This is the first time they've been on the field. You know, let's let's sit back to this metaphor here. Yeah, if you're sitting on one bench and you're shouting at the players on the other bench, that's not the same as being on the field. And that's what they used to do since 92, since Atwater, since Carville, to use your examples. But the idea that they are now actually going out there and trying to get the TD themselves is mental. Now, I

Corey 1:07:15

I guess the other thing I would say, and that's why I put my hand up here, is this

Corey 1:07:21

this poison that we're seeing really reinforces my belief that we are going to see an early election here, because I just don't think, regardless of what happens on the 18th, that

Corey 1:07:32

that that's going to be a comfortable enough dynamic that whoever ends up on top is not going to want to say, I

Corey 1:07:39

I got to change this up. Yeah, because they just

Corey 1:07:43

just need some of those people not to be there. They need some new people there. This caucus, I'm beginning to feel, is too broken to function to the next general election.

Zain 1:07:54

Champ it at the bit. Carter,

Carter 1:07:56

the the leader actually has controls in an election period that they don't have prior to the election period they get to sign everybody's nomination papers these 15 people these nine people however many people there are that are rebels they're instantly replaced by the signature of the leader on someone else's papers uh the you know and when you call a snap you don't have to go through nomination processes you don't have to follow anything these processes the parties use views these are all make-believe these are all made up to make sure that people feel like they're a part of something that can all be undone with the stroke of a pen in the uh in the actual election you want to be a candidate be

Carter 1:08:33

be a candidate somewhere else go fuck yourself brian jane that

Carter 1:08:35

that that that takes two seconds carter

Zain 1:08:38

carter is there i'll come to you in a second carter is there anything kenny can do right now with these rebels in his caucus is it he can't kick them out now I mean, he can, technically. Strategically, can he? And should he, Carter?

Carter 1:08:50

No, he should have kicked them out when they signed the anti-COVID measures letter. There was all kinds of time when he should have kicked them out. Anything he can do now, though,

Zain 1:08:59

though, while he fights for his

Carter 1:09:01

for his life. This thing, you kick them out now and you look weak. I mean, he's got a mine vote. Yeah, it's

Corey 1:09:09

it's like 18 days until the ballots have to be in. You're not kicking anyone out at this point.

Zain 1:09:15

I'll tell you something.

Corey 1:09:16

win loser draw gonna be lots to talk about may 19th in edmonton at the my wish was gonna be

Zain 1:09:25

can't sell this this is this is what core this is what carter and i hear that's what we sell the show right okay let me tell you banquet hall you guys are gonna be sitting on a beautiful chaise okay i mean this is a top-notch wedding chaise okay that you guys are gonna be said cramped together yeah to be clear you and me yeah

Zain 1:09:41

yeah yeah that's right yeah Yeah, yeah, Carter's probably not going to show up. I

Carter 1:09:45

I have my own.

Carter 1:09:46

If someone sponsors for $1,500, they can have that chaise. Jesus

Carter 1:09:50

It's always a fucking

Zain 1:09:52

Yeah, yeah, they're going to have

Zain 1:09:53

to deal with it on the banquet hall. We're just going to broker the transaction, take a couple points on it. Give

Carter 1:09:58

Give them the chaise lounge.

Zain 1:10:01

If you were chief of staff to the premier right now, how would you be weaponizing? Weaponizing sounds horrible. Sure, I'll go with it. How would you be utilizing or weaponizing your paid political staff as your principal fights for his political life? Because we talk about, okay, them going after each

Zain 1:10:17

each other, going after the public, being net new. We don't have time today to talk about what the remedy to that is in a more global perspective. perspective.

Zain 1:10:25

But if you were utilizing, you were the master that said, guys, this is what we're doing as paid political staff of this premier's office or as chiefs of staff to ministers, what would they be doing right now in service of Jason Kenney if you were in charge, Carter?

Carter 1:10:39

I think they'd be showing what loyalty looks like,

Carter 1:10:41

right? And loyalty doesn't look like just attacking everybody else. Loyalty says, let's build up the big man. Let's build up the big man and let's remind people of what actually happened. And then let's make sure that every Every night between six and nine o'clock, you're making as many telephone calls as you can.

Carter 1:10:57

That's what this is about now. But

Carter 1:10:59

But it's about loyalty. It's about building up that which Jason Kenney has actually achieved. I mean, I'd be talking about how this government's going to balance its budget every day. I'd be talking about how, you know, the work of government has continued despite the distractions. And I'd have them characterized as distractions instead of clown shows. shows let the big guy decide what the language is going to be of attack you're going to you're going to use the language of of uh of loyalty you

Carter 1:11:27

you would like the knife fighter

Zain 1:11:28

fighter so to speak carter that that would not be

Carter 1:11:30

message to them because they become the fucking story every time they become a knife fighter they become the story for two days and there's no more days there's 18 days until this thing is over and if you have five

Carter 1:11:40

five more of these you know bozo eruptions from your own team then all of a sudden that becomes a story for the next 10 for 10 out of of the next 18 days. Jason Kenney needs to be the story for the next 18 of 18 days. He needs to be able to control the stage or get off the stage, which is also his right, which we've advised him before. Disappear for 18 days. Get the fuck out of the media. Have your people be the most loyal people, period. Blow up four or five key pieces. The deficit's been eliminated. We're putting more money into healthcare. care we are rebuilding um a school system that makes sense for albertans um you know whatever whatever the talking point says that they want to do that's what you're talking about for 18 days this is a great government that has been hit hard by covid and and people who don't follow a leader period

Zain 1:12:35

cory same question to you as we ran out on this uh

Zain 1:12:38

uh if you were chief of staff to the premier you were directing these paid political staffers what

Zain 1:12:43

what would your uh

Zain 1:12:44

uh task collectively to the to them be uh what what should they be doing right now i

Corey 1:12:50

i would make it very clear that their public participation was not welcome at this moment they better go and get some phone bank shifts they better go and

Corey 1:12:59

make sure that every member that is out there that is attainable to jason kenny is is voting and is voting for Jason Kenney and to shut the fuck up. Now, one of the things that I think is craziest about this clown reaction, in addition to the fact that it occurred, right, that somebody thought this was a good thing to put out there, is that,

Corey 1:13:19

so the way it worked for those who are not familiar is Rick Bell teased out the night before, oh, I've got an article coming about, you know, people from within the caucus who are mad at Jason Kenney. And of course, then Twitter started thinking, who, who, is it somebody new? And it wasn't anybody new. It was just a bundling of the grievances in one particular article.

Corey 1:13:38

And then the response came of, that's it. It's just the same clowns. But obviously,

Zain 1:13:42

obviously, they were worried there were more MLAs who

Corey 1:13:44

who were willing to go public at this point, which to me says they know there are more MLAs who are unhappy.

Corey 1:13:51

I mean, spoiler, of course there are, right? But it to me spoke of, it was weakness. It reeked of weakness. it was it was like that bravado that you get with relief when something that you thought really bad that was going to happen to you didn't happen to you but

Corey 1:14:06

but it betrayed everything about their mindset right now so they

Corey 1:14:10

should have just they should have just stayed off the keyboard i don't know what the hell they were thinking i'm

Zain 1:14:16

i'm going to leave that segment there moving on to our final segment our over under and our lightning round stephen carter this show is for you we do it for you i mean and that's

Corey 1:14:24

that's why i'm going to start with cory cory overrated underrated for

Zain 1:14:30

macron beats le pen today overrated

Zain 1:14:32

overrated underrated for our country the the implications of populism far right you know um the policies etc overrated underrated for what it could mean domestic i i mean overrated

Corey 1:14:43

overrated there's it's not a comparable situation for a number of different reasons The Le Pens have been part of the fabric of France for a long time and have somehow rehabilitated themselves to the point where they don't seem as scary to the French. Part of that is just familiarity and that they're there. And Marine Le Pen is not as scary as her father, which is not saying a fucking lot at all. But they have really moderated their language and they've moderated their policies. And I'm not really sure that we can see it and learn too much about the right, because both it's an example of somebody becoming less extreme over time when we have the opposite problem, but

Corey 1:15:21

but also it's a personality that's been involved in politics for a long time, decades, right? And there's that familiarity that we don't have with any of the other players.

Corey 1:15:29

players. On the flip side, Macron, who won an impressive re-election because French presidents tend to get a bit of a rough ride, although Chirac got re-elected, Mitterrand got re-elected,

Corey 1:15:42

he got 58% of the vote as a centrist. And so maybe you look at that and say, well, look, maybe Trudeau's got a good opportunity there, or maybe the pendulum is swinging back towards moderation. And

Corey 1:15:53

And maybe it is, right? Right. You know, I kind of think that at least moderation and language and the idea that we don't all have to be pieces of shit all the time might

Corey 1:16:02

might be due for a comeback.

Corey 1:16:04

But again, I don't know that I learn anything because, you

Corey 1:16:08

know, Amash was so different. It was a party that didn't really exist before the 2017 election. And it just it doesn't have any of the history or DNA of our own particular situations here. Just a different country, different context.

Zain 1:16:23

much to learn good

Corey 1:16:25

good i'm glad marine

Zain 1:16:27

dependent wind but holy

Corey 1:16:28

holy fuck i mean you

Corey 1:16:30

you know that's the that's the lowest of bars carter

Zain 1:16:33

carter overrated underrated the implication of the macro wind to to canada underrated

Carter 1:16:38

underrated i mean this is a woman who was you know the woman who lost is talking about pulling uh french troops out from nato command uh undermining nato uh reaching a rapprochement with uh with putin uh i mean this is this is not a uh you know the had she won um the face of europe would have changed and the face of europe changing uh to the right and to uh

Carter 1:17:02

uh people who may have modified their language but certainly don't appear to have modified their stances um scares the crap out of me so i think it's an underrated victory for the for europe i think it's an underrated victory for canada and and anybody who's a member of of nato and uh we're thankful that we dodged this particular bullet but this this is also uh continues to be something that we should be worried about we certainly can't wipe our brow and say whoa that was close we have to double down on on these right-wing populists and make sure that they're they're done i don't

Corey 1:17:33

don't know why we do it it wasn't close he won by 16 points it's

Corey 1:17:37

it's a landslide by any definition

Carter 1:17:40

well if it's a a landslide.

Zain 1:17:42

Carter, I'm going to stick with you. Overrated, underrated.

Zain 1:17:46

The Twitter board is now taking a serious look at the Elon Musk bid. I find this story just constantly fascinating from the democratic freedom speech angle that we've been hitting on it. But overrated or underrated after saying publicly that their poison pill was in place to slow Elon Musk down, that they're now taking a serious look at this in your mind, overrated or underrated?

Carter 1:18:07

Underrated. I mean, I mean, I don't think I can make a simple statement that says if Elon Musk takes over Twitter, we will see civil war in the United States. We've done the discussion about whether or not we think civil war is likely or probable in the United States. The answer is we think it is. You know, it is far too likely when you see two groups of people, you know, further

Carter 1:18:28

further and further apart and more and more militarized, especially by rhetoric. And the rhetoric on Twitter is what is positively scary. And Elon Musk thinks it's a fucking joke. And it's not a joke. The truth

Carter 1:18:44

truth of the matter is, I complain a lot about people on Twitter that are attacking other people and attacking me. And 99% of the time, Twitter's like, hey, that's fine. And I just don't think that it's fine. I think that we are watching the world spin towards something that is going to be more and more problematic. And the fact that the United States doesn't seem to think that they have a violence problem scares

Carter 1:19:11

the shit out of me. Violence and this type of speech go hand in hand together. And Elon Musk thinks it's a fucking joke. Corey,

Zain 1:19:17

Corey, Twitter board looking seriously at the Elon Musk offer, as they say in a release earlier from this evening, as we record on Sunday night, overrated or underrated in your mind? So

Corey 1:19:28

So I think that the now it seems like probability people are talking about is somewhat overrated, which is not to say

Corey 1:19:35

won't happen. But I think that the pivot has been a little too aggressive. I do think that the potential consequences are underrated and remain underrated. But in some ways, it's just the consequences of Twitter more generally that

Zain 1:19:48

that we need to be aware of here. But when

Corey 1:19:50

when I say it's overrated, well, look, they're

Corey 1:19:52

they're taking a serious look at it. They have to. I mean, they have a fiduciary duty, especially

Corey 1:19:56

especially once it became clear that that deal wasn't just a random Musk tweet, but that he'd actually arranged financing to make it happen. If it was going to happen, they have to have that conversation. They may also be kind of tempted to take that money, which is still above their stock price. Get all of, you know, go private, get bought out and move on with their lives and avoid all of this chaos here.

Corey 1:20:20

certainly now seems possible that Musk ends up having

Corey 1:20:24

having taken Twitter private. I don't know that I'm saying, well, it's certainly not a guarantee, and I'm not even sure I would say

Zain 1:20:30

say it's probable yet.

Corey 1:20:32

Yet. It really depends on how serious Musk was when he said it was his final and best offer. Because if it is, I suspect it's

Corey 1:20:40

it's not enough. But if it isn't his final and best offer, if there's a room to go up $5 a share,

Corey 1:20:46

$7 a share, then I think that, yeah, he'll probably end up owning Twitter now that the board's talking to him. And

Zain 1:20:51

now that he seems to have at least his financing, quote unquote, lined up. Corey,

Zain 1:20:55

Corey, I'm going to stick with you for our next one. Is this a problem, yes or no, for Jean Charest? If it starts becoming a race between Patrick Brown and Pierre Pagliaver, Jean Charest kind of falls back into third, at least in terms of how we start talking about it, that the Brown momentum keeps growing. Charest kind of keeps floundering, looks like this loser loner style campaign. Is

Zain 1:21:18

Is that a problem for Jean Charest? We talk about the prioritization of the votes and where they might go on multiple ballots. And if so, how big of a problem? That's my lightning round question that is clearly meant for a different segment now that I think about it.

Carter 1:21:36

Yeah, I totally agree with Corey. I

Zain 1:21:38

I don't know if you do, Carter.

Zain 1:21:42

don't know if you do. I feel like we need a deeper examination on this.

Carter 1:21:46

Carter, I think we're just going to think, you know what? You're right. it would be a problem if he was losing

Zain 1:21:52

I'm talking about the vote transfer, is there a way for him to just build while Patrick Brown does his thing, he drifts behind I don't know, what the fuck, maybe I'm overcomplicating

Corey 1:22:01

I mean, if you're losing elections, you don't win them, that's weird yeah,

Zain 1:22:08

final question in the next 14 days

Zain 1:22:12

in the next 14 days

Zain 1:22:14

there a leadership change in the Jean Charest campaign, yes or no?

Carter 1:22:18

Uh, there should be, which means there will not be.

Zain 1:22:21

Corey, in the next 14 days, is there a leadership change on the Jean Chirac epic? Yeah,

Corey 1:22:25

Yeah, but it won't be

Corey 1:22:25

the dramatic. It'll be the subtle.

Zain 1:22:29

We're going to leave it there. That is a wrap on episode 985 of The Strategist. My name is Zayn Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you next time.

Corey 1:22:47

85 for the strategists if you're looking for more content why not head over to the strategist patreon.com and sign up for as little six dollars a month to get our thursday episodes plus any special episodes we do ten dollars a month gets you access to live streams and twenty dollars a month i don't think it really gets you much but uh you get the glory of saying you've spent twenty dollars a month on a podcast that is nominally free all right well thanks hope to see you over at strategistpatreon.com

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