Episode 952: Blue (Carter's Version)

Zain 0:02

This is The Strategist, episode 952. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, happy Sunday. What's going on?

Carter 0:11

I'm just pleased to be here again, you know, to be hanging out with you two. It just makes me so happy.

Corey 0:16

I've been sitting here since Thursday. I

Carter 0:17

I know. It's Thursday night. Corey and I got on the squad cast, looked

Carter 0:22

looked at each other, and we're just sad.

Zain 0:25

Let's stop you from just hitting the record button. Turns out

Carter 0:27

out neither one of us has the patience to ask the questions.

Carter 0:31

both kept trying to answer the questions. Yeah, it ended

Corey 0:33

ended up being kind of just monologues.

Corey 0:36

No matter how we ran it.

Carter 0:38

No, I'm smarter. No, I'm smarter. It just kind of went like that. What's

Zain 0:41

What's different than that and

Carter 0:46

Flair airline shoutouts were really crappy, so we couldn't publish.

Zain 0:52

That's good. I mean, the sponsor requires good shoutouts. You had a good weekend, Corey?

Zain 0:56

Yeah, I had a good weekend.

Zain 0:58

Carter, you had a good weekend?

Carter 1:00

I did not get outside, not once.

Zain 1:03

I was outside. It was overrated. I don't know why you do it. I don't understand any elements of it. Let's move it on to our first segment. Let's waste no time. Coalition of the Unwilling. Guys, I want to talk about federal politics. We've got a lot of provincial politics to do, but we'll jump into the federal side very, very quickly. Carter, we're 90 seconds in. We're already in our first segment. This

Carter 1:25

This is amazing. I've never seen such efficiency. You

Zain 1:28

You know what happens when we do that, right? Is that the bickering just happens throughout. Later. It'll

Carter 1:32

It'll just come later.

Carter 1:34

I'll just drop in an NBA fact and you guys will be astounded.

Zain 1:37

Carter, what do you think of Odell Beckham Jr. getting traded?

Carter 1:40

It was about time.

Carter 1:43

And what do you

Zain 1:43

you think of his new home?

Carter 1:44

Well, I mean, I think any place that will take Odell Beckham is really at the end of a long line. You know, like they're really at the end of the beginning. Let's put it that way.

Corey 1:53

Carter, follow-up question. What sport does Odell Beckham Jr. play? He's the NFL.

Corey 1:58

Oh, shit. Shit. Okay. One fact.

Zain 2:03

her 10-minute song, All Too Well, Taylor Swift was talking about which male movie star? Jake Gyllenhaal.

Zain 2:12

Allegedly. Allegedly. I mean, she'll never

Carter 2:14

never admit it, but we all know. We all know. I've seen the tics in the talks.

Zain 2:18

Yeah, you've seen the tics in the talks. I'm glad. I'm glad you have. That's good. I'm glad that we're now two minutes and 20 seconds in and we're still

Carter 2:24

big break. This is a much better start than that 90-second start that you had us going on. Corey,

Zain 2:28

Corey, Aaron O'Toole is now facing persistent questions about vaccinations, of course. We talked about O'Toole Island last week. We talked about our real estate on O'Toole Island. What needs to happen for him to get out of the rut that he's in, both, I guess, literally and metaphorically, considering O'Toole Island as a reference point. But, Corey, he's now taken vaccination and turned it into coalition. That seems to be the word that he's using a lot this week. He used it 19 times during his six and a half minute media statement on Monday, then another seven times on Tuesday when he announced his shadow cabinet, all to refer disparagingly to purported talks that he's trying to add fire to between the liberals and the NDP to form a, quote unquote, coalition. Chuck Meade saying the NDP is saying this bullshit is not happening. It's not a real thing. But the coalition government is kind of hearkening back to the Harper era years as a very specific sort of milestone in people's minds. I want to talk about the strategy behind this. And Carter, maybe I'll start with you on this. Aaron O'Toole, gone for a bit, reappears. What do you think of the strategy of him now showing up trying

Zain 3:40

trying to defend vaccinations with talks of a coalition?

Carter 3:44

I think that that's an interesting strategy to try and remind people what they're fighting against, right? It's all too easy in the Conservative Party movements to have Conservatives fighting Conservatives, because when we say the word Conservative, it is not a single thing. It is not a – it's funny because when you're using the coalition word, I very easily could have seen O'Toole talking about his coalition, his coalition of conservatism, right?

Carter 4:10

right? This coalition of conservatism is actually the powerhouse, right, that will ultimately be able to retake the government. But we can't do it without a coalition. I could very easily see him talking that way. But pegging the other guys as having the coalition, the unholy alliance between the NDP and the liberals that the conservatives rail against and see as the worst possible form of government because the liberals just lurch to the left. And then it takes, you know, a decade of conservative rule just to bring them back to the middle, to the middle. That's a story that conservatives will believe. And I think that that story is pretty wise of O'Toole to be trying to tell it because it gives them a dedicated enemy. And watching Singh run away from it seems to be proving the point that it actually has some teeth.

Zain 5:00

Corey, good strategy here. Coalition means a very specific thing, but O'Toole seems to really be hitting on something.

Corey 5:06

I think what Carter said is interesting, and I hadn't actually thought about it in that sense. But there's a reason why the NDP runs away from it, too, which is that it's very unpopular with the NDP base as well. And this is not actually unique to the liberal NDP conservative dynamic we have right now. Now, the reality is every time that

Corey 5:22

that you have a government, you have an anti-government sentiment out there and parties try to latch on to that or not. And we've seen parties, especially, well,

Corey 5:30

well, you know, notoriously in the United Kingdom when the Lib Dems supported the Tories and just went down in flames as a result of that. You know, their support just plummeted over time because they were tied to the government, but they were also not the government. And that was a real coalition, right? That was a different situation altogether. together so

Corey 5:47

so uh yeah i mean it's always good to keep your eyes on an external enemy to rally the team around an external threat that is that's kind of just very cynically

Corey 5:55

cynically it's it's kind of like leadership 101 right it's there's this us and there's this them and we're gonna fight we're gonna win and whether that is we're gonna sell more soft drinks than the other guys or you name it that's a very common approach that people have when they're rallying the base what i think is a a little bit curious

Corey 6:12

curious for me here and maybe it's not a concern for like the public messaging point of view but let's just sort of call it out is there's a big difference between that old classic stephen harper brought up of the coalition of the losers in that he was the the fellow who got the plurality of the seats at the time justin

Corey 6:29

justin trudeau got the plurality of the seats of the sun this is a coalition of the winners that aaron o'toole is accusing uh of occurring here so it's not Not remotely the same situation. I do think that the fact that it makes Singh squirm and even the liberals are not too wild about it and don't want to look too enthused with it because they worry that they will be perceived as too far left says it's not a loser for Aaron O'Toole. But I mean, it's kind of dumb if we're just going to get right down to it. You

Zain 6:57

You know, Carter, this is exactly what I wanted to hit on with what Corey just brought up, which is I like how you phrased it, Corey. What did you say? The coalition of the winners. Right. And in many ways,

Zain 7:06

Carter, Canadians and two thirds of them voted for progressive parties. Does this really surprise anyone that the liberals and the NDs, even prior to this election where we were generating the same sort of seat counts roughly, are going to continue to work together? Like, what I think the mileage on this is perhaps short, if not, you know, may not maybe a smart strategy, but do you feel like it's one that flames out very quickly based on what Corey just mentioned here? Well,

Carter 7:32

Well, I think that Corey's made a very good point about the popularity of this type of idea within the NDP. I mean, keep in mind, we've often talked about the hatred from the Orange Party to the Red Party, actually

Carter 7:45

actually sometimes being stronger than the dislike of the Orange Party to the Blue Party. party. So that type of upset that is, you know, that can be manifested through their working together, they're undoing, you know, they're creating an unholy alliance. It's not the same as it was when the party of, you know, the coalition of the losers, but the coalition itself, the idea that people create a actual framework to govern, that is almost always unpopular within the bases of the party. And what's really confusing to me is Justin Trudeau didn't need a coalition to govern effectively the first two years of his minority mandate? Why does he need a coalition to govern effectively in the second two, you know, the next two years? I just don't think that it's a, I

Carter 8:30

I think it's almost made up, because it actually doesn't serve anybody the way that it needs to, except maybe a narrative that Aaron O'Toole is constructing. Everybody else, I just think it's a little bit weak. Why would you even bother?

Zain 8:43

Carter, is that a rhetorical question you're asking yourself around Trudeau? Or do you have like some particular ideas as to why he might you know even lean on this this more strengthened informal partnership which i think the main sort of ticket that folks are looking at is is the longevity of of keeping it up for a couple years uh you know do you feel like there's a actual reason for trudeau to get more guarantees from the ndp than than in the past there's

Carter 9:09

there's no reason at all in

Carter 9:10

in fact not having their guarantee not having them support them on stuff so not say the ndp was was deciding not to support them on this child care stuff, right? See, the NDP said, you know what, it's not going far enough. Are you going to have final, you know, Trudeau has something to rail against. Trudeau has an enemy in the NDP. They're not letting me achieve the agenda for Canadians. And the problem with the first two years is there was never anybody to rail against because everything that they put forward was basically supported by the other parties in some fashion, right? There was never a moment where we were going, oh, I wonder if this is going to pass. I wonder if this budget is going to get through. I wonder if this confidence motion is going to go. There was never any of those moments because everybody knew that they could never afford to have the government fall, never was going to be a situation where the NDP wanted another election. By putting this in place and giving a two-year deal, for example, that really just gives the NDP two years to establish what their brand would be. I don't know why the Liberals would do it because if there was to be a confidence motion in two years or in two weeks, two months, the speech from the throne is rejected by all the other opposition parties. The group most likely to come out on top is the Liberal Party. They may have only got a plurality of seats this time, but they're much closer to majority seats, especially if they can peg the other parties as being unreasonable. Imagine what would happen. Imagine what would happen if they voted against the speech from the throne.

Carter 10:39

People would be so furious with those parties. Why would you ingrain that then? Why not just take advantage of it and push it through? Make them be your partner instead of asking them to be your partner. I just think, you know, this is about power.

Carter 10:53

Power is good in politics. Trudeau has more. He shouldn't be giving any to Jagmeet Singh.

Zain 10:59

Corey, let's talk about the cousin of power, leverage. Can I set the table for a second on the NDs and can we talk about them? So you got Jagmeet Singh, roughly same seat count as last election, holding the balance of power, sticking on as leaders. The early talks of saying this guy needs to go, those are fizzled out. Like, I don't think there's a real sort of question here about his leadership, at least not in the short term. You then had political commentators in the pundit class after that election result a couple of months ago saying, you know, this gives Jagmeet Singh more leverage, more leverage, more leverage. With this proposition or this line of attack that O'Toole's put on the table, with everything that you see from your sort of perspective, game it out for me. Where is the NDP leverage right now? Is it greater than, less than it used to be? Is it roughly about the same? Or at least give me your sense of the terrain for them in terms of passing their agenda, which is continuing the march to the left for the liberals.

Corey 11:55

Yeah, well, I don't think that's the NDP's agenda. But to

Corey 11:59

to your point, do they have more ability to pull the liberals to the left than they did before the election? Well, I think not really, simply because elections are expensive, and nobody believes that they want to go right back into the polls. And of course, the liberals do have a couple more seats, and that gives them a little bit more breathing room. although it fundamentally hasn't changed the math or the connection between all of the parties here. One of the things, though, that I think we just sort of need to call out here is everybody's talking about a coalition as though the NDP have to vote yes on a confidence measure. That's not true. Because of the seat counts where they are, if I'm not mistaken, now I better make sure I'm right about this. I'm fairly certain I'm right. If the NDP all just abstained en masse for every confidence vote, that would still give the Liberals 51% of the votes left over. And so there you go, right? You don't even necessarily need them to vote yes. So I do wonder, you know, there's just so many variations of Liberals getting the majority vote in these situations. That makes me think that the NDP probably has slightly less power than they did before. But maybe more flexibility, and maybe that sounds a bit counterintuitive. But if you're talking about about ability to do agenda, maybe

Corey 13:10

maybe less. Ability to be a political party carving your own future, maybe more.

Zain 13:16

Carter, that's an interesting point, Corey. Let's talk about this from the liberals perspective. O'Toole is now telegraphing, trying to almost will into existence that this imaginary liberal NDP alliance is a formality. It's going to ruin Canada. It's this, you know, socialist socialist horde that's going to, you know, end the days of a responsible, fiscally sound Canada.

Zain 13:42

If you're the Liberals, from any messenger, are you proposing to send out any message? Or are you just sitting on your hands, remaining quiet, knowing that this is a guy trying to struggle with his own issues and try to find any line of attack that works? Are you saying anything? Are you telegraphing anything? What are you doing if you're the Liberals in this situation?

Carter 14:04

I'd ignore O'Toole all day long, all month long, right

Carter 14:07

right past the throne speech, right in, you know, answer his questions, be as polite as possible. But the reality is, that is a man under attack. And the man under attack is exactly what you prefer. You

Carter 14:19

You prefer that every single day of the week, because if he's under attack from his own internal party forces, you don't need to do anything. thing he's going to try and lob grenades at you but they're not going to land they're not going to stick so why not just let them go let them have at it and uh leave them alone there's no there's no upside for you for having o'toole um fall by the wayside and potentially be replaced by you know a real political combatant someone who really knows the uh

Carter 14:48

uh the terrain someone who could really cause pain for them you know someone like jason kenney okay

Carter 14:53

okay that was a joke is funny yeah

Carter 14:55

yeah OK, just me. OK.

Zain 14:59

That's good. We'll let you have that moment, Carter, to yourself. That's good. Marinating that.

Carter 15:03

Yeah, yeah. I like it. You know what? The audience loved that. The several people listening to this podcast today loved it. Sit in your soil sheets

Zain 15:10

sheets for a second, Carter. Corey, is

Zain 15:15

Carter right? Do the liberals just ignore him or do they need to nudge him back to the vaccination question? Or does that naturally happen when the House of Commons resumes on the 22nd? Like, is there anything that the liberals need to do to try to get O'Toole back into the dysfunction and the chaos that is his civil liberties caucus, his questions on vaccination, the sort of ongoing rhetoric of he needs to show leadership, quote unquote, whatever the fuck that means? Yeah,

Corey 15:38

Yeah, so that depends, Zane. Is there a coalition in any way, shape or form? Because if there is, then no, you can't ignore him. You need to start preconditioning people for this is not actually that bad. It's not what he's saying. It's a very different type of thing, blah, blah, blah. Sowing the seeds so that it's not being entirely defined by Aaron O'Toole. If it's just bullshit, then yeah, you ignore him. You say, it's bullshit. Guy's got problems in his caucus. Do you want to talk about those? Because I can talk about those all day.

Zain 16:02

Corey, does any part of you think this is real? Yeah,

Corey 16:07

yeah. Like, I don't think there's going to be, like, a Magna Carta-style, like, written document with a bunch of, like, fancy signatures at the bottom necessarily. Now, that's certainly a possibility. But do I believe there's been conversations about, like, hey, don't bring this government down. Let's try to find a way that we can work together. Let's make this a more – let's afford each other both those things that we want. We want a freer hand to govern. And you want to free your hand to be in opposition and not worry about bringing this whole place down every two months? Because as much as Stephen said, there were never those moments in the last parliament. He's wrong. Last fall, we talked about the throne speech being potentially something where the government might have to drop. And then we talked about Jagmeet Singh having to fold on it effectively, allowing the government to continue. And he did.

Corey 16:49

And he did. But that wasn't a great moment for

Carter 16:51

for Jagmeet Singh. It wasn't a good moment

Corey 16:52

moment for Singh, but that's fine for

Corey 16:54

for the liberals. So a different paradigm, where the liberals get to govern more and the NDP gets to oppose more, that's not necessarily a bad thing. So have those conversations happened in some way, shape or form? I'm sure. I'm sure. Even if it's just sort of a more casual, informal, maybe it didn't go anywhere.

Corey 17:11

Do I think maybe something might be coming out of it? Yeah, I

Corey 17:14

I definitely think that's a possibility. But I think that they've learned from that Stephen Harper era where they sat down with the leader of the Bloc Quebecois as well at this big press conference, you know, flashbulbs going off and

Corey 17:27

and signing some sort of weird agreement. I don't think they're going to make that mistake again. I think an agreement to allow them to govern is going to take a different form if there is one. Carter,

Zain 17:36

Carter, I'm going to ask you the same question. Do you feel like there's something in the works or do you feel like this is just all hot air being peddled by Aaron O'Toole? I

Carter 17:44

think there was something in the works, but I think that it ended when Singh stood up and said, there's nothing in the works.

Carter 17:51

I think that he probably heard back from his membership, his donors, that said, you know what, we voted for you to be different, not the same. And

Carter 18:00

And if you're going to ultimately fold, then really, we are the same party.

Corey 18:05

Well, very possible. Very possible that when he started testing the waters on that, especially you can imagine with the BC caucus thinking of the green example more recently and all of this, that was not necessarily going to be popular. And there were some recent examples of it not working out well. Well, when

Carter 18:21

when you think of the provincial parties across the country, you know, some of them like the Ontario New Democrats wouldn't be looking at this as a positive. The BC New Democrats wouldn't be looking at it as a positive. The Alberta New Democrats might, but probably

Carter 18:35

probably not. Not the core ones, not the ones that have been there since Papa Notley.

Zain 18:42

Absolutely. Carter, let's end it on this, which is Corey's analysis here, right? Which is to say, if there's something in the works, then you sow the seeds to try to make it palatable, right, to the broader public. If there isn't anything in the works, as the liberals, you just be like, this is fucking bullshit. You don't either address it or you discard it as bullshit. Unless this is an official coalition in the conventional way that we know how, aren't the liberals inoculated to just dismiss this as bullshit writ large? Yeah,

Carter 19:09

Yeah, I mean, really, unless you do a deal. I mean, unless you're doing a formal deal,

Zain 19:13

deal, you mean like press conference, like the Magna Carta document that Nicolas Cage will steal that Corey was talking about, unless all those things are part of it. it listen

Carter 19:22

listen anything that he up to and including the handwritten note that peter mckay gave to david orchard in the 2004 leadership saying that he would not merge with stephen harper's canadian alliance um up to and including that point um you know if

Carter 19:37

if it's not written down it doesn't exist and realistically you're going to get them anytime anyways right they're going to either do what cory said which is abstain or they're going to jump in and vote with with the government um seven seven times out of eight anyways. So what's, you know, what's the problem?

Zain 19:54

Corey, you're giving me a look. Do you want to, do you want to end with the final comment here?

Corey 19:57

Well, just that you talked about the Magna Carta document that they signed before we get tweeted at, I do know there were no signatures on the Magna Carta.

Corey 20:05

That's good. What I meant was a glorious document.

Corey 20:08

Well, Zane then made it messy because that's what he does. This is what the

Carter 20:12

guys are just going to go right past my handwritten note about between Peter McKay and David Orchard.

Carter 20:20

basically you know bringing something back from before zane was born like

Zain 20:27

carter you are the odell beckham jr of this podcast you ruin the chemistry when we have a flow you're very talented but you ruin the chemistry when we have a flow i prefer

Carter 20:35

prefer when the podcast is all about me that's those are the ones i tend to do the best in well

Zain 20:40

well i'm going to count on your lived experience for our next segment our next segment this meeting could could have been an email, guys, the UCP AGM is going to be among us, or amongst us. Should the whole thing have been an email? That's

Corey 20:56

That's a good headline. That's good. That's really

Zain 21:01

So here in Alberta, you're welcome. I still bring it once every five episodes, and I mail it in for the other four. Guys, UCP AGM is happening this weekend, the 19th to the 21st here in Calgary. It is notably one of the two AGMs that we are going to see in the next six months. We have one here in November, then, of course, with the leadership review for Jason Kenney, at least scheduled right now in April of 2022. They'll have their 2022 AGM. It's going to be held in Calgary. There's a lot of conversation going on about what this means for Jason Kenney's fortunes. I want to get to all of that. But before that, for our listeners who may not be familiar with the dynamics of an AGM, and I recognize that they're different for every party. Carter, do you want to give us a 101 of what an AGM actually functions to do in a healthy party, what an AGM is supposed to do, what its objectives are said and unsaid on a particular weekend? I know all of us have been to a few of them, but give me a sense of it, and Corey, then I'll get you to add on to what Carter said in terms of the foundational points here. Well,

Carter 22:07

Well, I'm going to pick on kind of the one that's unspoken because I always think it's the most important, And that is the bringing together of the team and reminding them all why they're on the team. So you have a number of functional pieces. Maybe there's a leadership review or policies, conferences or policy initiatives, or just even the election of the key

Carter 22:31

key personnel of the party, whether it's the officers or directors or others. others um that is the function of it but the the big over overlying thing is to bring together all the true believers right the 1500 people who care the most about the party and they're all going to be in one place and they're all off for old friends and they drink together and they play together and they they talk about the good old times together they sleep together um you

Carter 22:59

you know big sti outcomes in the old pc is big the liberals were the worst when cory was there my god everybody Everybody had an STI.

Carter 23:09

that last part may not have been true. Outrageous.

Carter 23:12

That part might have been made up. But the point is that you bring everybody together and you remind them of why they're working so hard. Because these volunteer positions are a lot of work. They're not a lot of glory. And in fact, underneath the election law, there's a lot of possible negative outcomes for the people who are actually doing this work. So you bring them all together. they pay for the opportunity to get together and hang out together and

Carter 23:38

be told uh how great they are by the the party leaderships this is the opportunity to hang out with the mlas that you don't get every day you're

Carter 23:46

you're reminded how important you are the mlas come around and they all know your name and they slap you on the back um they say how great it is to see you again and and you feel great and that's the real reason i think that you hold a party agm the functional outcomes the The leadership review, the policy piece, the election of the officers, all part of it as well. But the we love you, we couldn't do it without you is probably the most important part.

Zain 24:11

Corey, do some yes ending for me. Add to what Carter said here. What other objectives, goals, outcomes are you looking for as part of an AGM in a political party?

Corey 24:21

Well, political parties are corporations too. And so there is some just nuts and bolts business that has to occur there. there. And depending on how the political party is structured, it can take all sorts of different forms. And I think maybe I'll just start off by saying all sorts of parties do this in all sorts of different ways. And they stack their agendas depending on what's going on. But generally speaking, you're going to see the election of officers, you're going to see the accepting of various reports, finance report, auditors report, different committee reports, usually happens very quickly. You're going to pass policies, we'll get back to that, because that's grown in importance In my time in politics, that used to be just sort of a yeah, whatever, but has now become a bit of a flashpoint at different moments. And those policies may be the party asks the government or the party asks if we should become government that we do X, or it could even be a policy that the party has, such as its constitutional, you know, structure. I'm putting it all in that bucket, I guess. there's election readiness training which becomes more important in the years before an election and there is that rallying the base that carter was talking about firing them up the big speech everybody talks about the keynote speeches right so you'll usually have one big keynote from somebody who's not the leader at least one and you'll have one from the leader and that's when the leader will make any major pronouncements that were within several months otherwise going to be planned you know if they're base focused and of course carter's 100 right networking is a huge part of it.

Corey 25:46

When I went to conventions back in the day, it's been a long time since I've been a delegate, mostly because delegated conventions are also changing. I've been an observer to them more recently.

Corey 25:58

I don't know how much time I actually spend in the halls dealing with the policy, the reports, the election of officers, all of that. A lot of it happens outside in the corridors, in the lounges, in the bars near the place, because that's where you connect with the the people and that's where you actually make these lifelong friendships and of course a signature moment in canadian politics i think all politics is the hospitality suite so it's the after hours at the convention when that final speech is wrapped up anybody who's running for one of those party offices anybody who wants to be the leader down the road uh and you know the host groups like if if it's happening in a certain city we'll put on these hospitality suites where you'll just fill Fill in these smaller hotel ballrooms or, as the name comes from, suites within the hotel. Bathtubs full of beer. You're just drinking. You're talking. And that's really, you know, the real convention goes until about 2 in the morning. It starts again quite early. Let's put it that way. Carter,

Carter 26:53

Oh, yeah. I mean, those hospitality suites are legendary. I'm also thinking that the strategists should host a hospitality suite at the UCP AGM. Well,

Zain 27:02

Well, I think right now is a great time to mention that our sponsor, Flair Airlines, is indeed helping us host a hospitality suite at the UCP AGM. We are going to have all the perks that one would get on a Flair Airline now in the comfort of a suite. So expect to go nowhere when you are at our hospitality suite with our sponsor, Flair Airlines. Not

Zain 27:30

Okay, thank you, Corey. uh

Carter 27:31

uh cory you railed on the last episode are you forgetting are you forgetting i

Zain 27:36

had i had hospitality suite on the checklist i also had a few other things like some interesting you know the conversations in the networking i think it's worthwhile to mention to folks that may not have been to these there's also like a layer of government relations folks and lobbyists and others

Zain 27:51

with other interests so to speak observers you you kind of drove by like with that concept of observers. Those are there being like, I want to fucking just eat my popcorn and see this thing implode, or I just want to see what's up, or try to get some insight or knowledge. Talk to me a bit more about that class of folk that kind of show up alongside what Carter's mentioned, which are like the diehards who, you know, sweat it out every single day with the identity piece that is this political party. Well,

Corey 28:15

Well, look, I mean, it's a spectacle and spectacles are fun. Although I don't think there's a lot of people who go as tourists to political conventions. Usually they're going for a reason. The media, of course, has stories to file. Certain media who write maybe Maybe more long form, more on like a magazine style schedule might go and start making the connections that they're going to use for their stories down the road. But primarily, they're probably taking notes of the speeches and getting ready to write their pieces. Other political parties send observers. So you can imagine at this UCPA GM, there will be one NDP MLA who spent

Corey 28:45

their thousand dollars to get observer status because they charge more for observers than very faithful, who

Corey 28:50

who will be going there to be ready both for the media to give instant reaction of the other political parties, but also just to sort of go

Corey 28:58

go around and sense the room and be that person who, you know, you're not going to have people coming up and be like, I secretly support you. Like that shit doesn't happen to convention. The diehards go to conventions. But it gives you a sense of the texture. And, you know, there are loose lips at conventions. People walk around a little lubricated from all of those hospitality suites saying things they shouldn't be saying as opposition MLAs are credentialed and walking around, MPs, as the case may be. I can tell you, at the liberal conventions, Olivia Chow wasn't always there, but quite often was there as an observer, right? Because she was a bit of a celebrity. People just wanted to sort of be around Olivia Chow, and then they would probably say dumb things, and that would provide intelligence to them, right? Similarly,

Corey 29:43

I've gone as an observer to conventions. Now, often I do it because of this stupid podcast and our desire to spend money and make no money, but be able to provide you the finest of analysis. And so sometimes if your interest is more on that periphery, just to sort of lead into kind of, I'm not a GR type, but the next order out would be those GR types who just want to go and hear the buzz and the chatter and make those connections that might be useful to them down the road. Carter,

Zain 30:10

Carter, okay, Corey, you guys have set the table what a convention is and a healthy party. I'm sure that the UCP heading into this weekend has all of those goals on the list, right? Camaraderie, coming togetherness, passing policy, electing those that are going to lead the volunteer positions at an executive level, having the one-on-ones with the MLAs, there's still government. But there seems to be a cloud hanging over it. Carter, that cloud is Jason Kenney's leadership. Give me a breakdown of, not even a breakdown, a thumbnail of what you expect, maybe a tone and tenor of a more contentious AGM. Because we've, if I can say, like, I've seen what that looks like, too, where the hallway chatter isn't just, hey, it's amazing, we're government, we're high in the polls. There's a very different vibe. There's a very different, hey, these people are lying this way. Give me a sense of what you might expect tone and tenor wise in the lobbies of the Gray Eagle, I believe it's where it being held here in Calgary, the casino for the UCP AGM coming up this weekend.

Carter 31:11

I'm really interested in that because I'm not sure how many allies Kenny has left.

Carter 31:15

Right. Does he have a crew of allies that he can send out to do the, you know, the padding on the back saying, you know what, we just got to stick this out. Right. Give him till March. March, he is the most talented political operative we've ever had, in part because he's the only political operative we've ever had. But let's give him the chance to earn his way out of this. And if he's not out in March or April, then he's already said that he'll step aside. Let him do that. But for now, let's not prejudge it. If he had a series of loyalists, that's what they should be doing, going around the hall, hall buying people drinks making sure that there's lots and lots and lots of hospitality suites that are essentially

Carter 31:57

essentially um you know they're

Carter 32:02

they're for the leader right this is the the leader the leader's hosting this one too i mean and these are the 20 cas that are most loyal to jason kent they've each got their own hospitality suite and they're the best right they're the ones where you go and you got there's fried chicken oh my god fried chicken was amazing did you get the fried chicken cory you got to go get the fried chicken, right? Or whatever the thing is, right? Because everybody's got beer. So they got the best beer. Oh, my

Carter 32:27

it's amazing. They've got kegs, you know, like whatever, whatever it is, you want them to be able to go and have those things.

Zain 32:34

Corey, let's talk about the specifics here in terms of what you feel like. Of course, we are doing a bit of like tea leaf reading, right? Like in terms of what we feel like tone and tenor might look like. But we've seen and witnessed this in the past that parties heading getting into AGMs or conventions without the most sort of healthiest sense of camaraderie or spirit. What are some of the things you expect? Carter's mentioned a few that there's going to be an ongoing campaign that the leaders community and the leaders circle will be talking, you know, talking up the leader, plying people with with alcohol and giving them the rub when one shows up to to their suites. What else do you kind of expect in these contentious times for the UCP?

Corey 33:15

yeah that that kind of whispering and that jockeying is something that occurs but you've also got to keep in mind at a convention everybody can see what you're doing and who you're hanging out with so i often think people overblow what it's going to feel like a bad convention like it has to be really bad to start feeling that malice on the floor because there's a certain uh you know decorum that comes from everybody being in the room and seeing each other in fact i think one of the things that jason kenney really has going for him is that this is an an in-person convention. We've seen some conventions lately that have been online, and I think that the tenor has been bad as a result. And we talked about this after Aaron O'Toole's convention, and I think maybe even in the lead-up to it, and we talked about this about Jagmeet Singh's most recent convention. It's hard to control a room that you're not actually in when all of these chats are happening on WhatsApp as you're listening in the convention thing. And yeah, everyone's texting in a convention back and forth, But you're in the room with people and there's a different feeling when you're all in the room and there's different levers that the leader can pull when you're all in the room where you can control the tone. And of course, the one that's making a lot of headlines in Alberta right now is that resolutions

Corey 34:23

resolutions can't come to the floor unless the leader proposes them, which I actually don't think is as nuts as everybody is acting. But, you know,

Corey 34:33

know, I guess what I'm saying is there are signs, you know, there is the whispering, there's the rumors, there's the who's hanging out with these people. All of a sudden, people are hanging around Brian Jean. That would be interesting, because you can all see who's hanging around Brian Jean. And so it's a bit of an overt signal at that point. But because everything on a convention floor is by nature in public and overt, the thing is often much tamer, even when a party is falling apart, then people are licking their lips and waiting for it. Would

Zain 35:01

Would it be fair to say that everyone is kind of doing

Zain 35:03

doing a bit of a performance? Like they feel like they can always be watched so that there's a bit of a performative element. Carter, is that fair to say, to kind of throw that into the mix? There's

Carter 35:14

There's always a performative element, especially when you're in person, right? right? Because you don't want to be...

Zain 35:18

be... And I'm not just talking about the leaders. I'm talking about like one as a delegate, like who they interact with for how long, you know? For

Carter 35:23

For sure. I mean, you go up and talk to people you don't like because you don't want to be seen as the guy you're not, you know, that's screwing, you know, fuck that guy. I don't want to talk to that guy. Hey, how are you? Kill him with kindness. That kind of stuff happens all the time. Jesus, I've been nice to Alan Hallman at conventions. You know, like this is the...

Zain 35:42

You'll have to unpack that for people at some point, and it won't be this point. Go ahead.

Carter 35:45

ahead. this podcast anyways it is a you

Carter 35:48

know it's a thing that is fairly normal right like especially in person cory makes a very strong point the

Carter 35:54

the in person removes a lot of the um the anger that can be expressed because i mean yes there is that asshole who yells at the leader in the convention but that asshole is reviled by everybody in the room they're not an infant that

Corey 36:10

that happens that happens even in a good convention there's always that asshole but the thing is We are ultimately Canadians, and we're ultimately human beings, if not even that. And when you are

Corey 36:22

are in a room and somebody makes it that uncomfortable, you resent them, even if you agree with them. You're

Corey 36:28

You're like, why are they fucking doing

Carter 36:29

doing this right now? Oh, man, he's saying everything I want to say, but right now? He's saying

Corey 36:31

saying it, but now it's going to make us look like clowns.

Carter 36:35

There's a news camera. There's a news camera right there. Always

Zain 36:37

Always blame the timing and the process, right? Yeah, exactly. Okay, let's leave this bracket open for a second, because I want to actually blank sheet this with you guys in terms of Team Kenny strategy and Team Let's Accelerate the Leadership review for this guy strategy. But I want to actually leave this bracket open and go to something Corey mentioned, which is the two substantive threads of discussion that are happening right now. The first one is the one about only the leader can introduce new resolutions to the floor. And the second one, Carter, is the conversation around will 22 constituency associations sign on to expedite Jason Kenney's leadership review that is being held in April? Those are the two like live wire threads that one might say are the most practical and tactical ways that Kenney's leadership could be could be usurped. Corey, you're shaking your head. So I'll let you jump in first before I go to Carter. Yeah,

Corey 37:37

Yeah, no, that's not the most practical way his leadership gets usurped at all.

Corey 37:43

What's going to happen is there's going to be this weird dance that goes on from this time the convention opens with all of those social cues we've talked about, where you are going to see people who oppose Jason Kenney trying to ratchet up and get people to telegraph their displeasure with the leader in increasingly large ways. it will start with sitting on hands it'll start with applause that is a little applause that's a little bit lagged behind and after a while people get the sense oh we're not with this man right

Corey 38:10

right and then the room gets a little bit chillier it gets a little bit frostier all of a sudden after the speech there's conversations at those hospitality suites saying boy not a great speech by the leader boy and he really needed a good one now and hmm you know if it's not going to be him who's it going to be and what what they're going to be looking for are those small things that erode confidence that jason kenney has control over this they're not going to be trying to create if they're smart these big moments uh that all of a sudden force a backlash effect where people say no to defend the party and to make this not look like a clown car we need to vote against this resolution right that happens too quickly and uh they're screwed now if they immediately read the room if they immediately get a sense that those kinds of resolutions like you know this one about about more constituency associations are needed to sort of pull the rug out from underneath Jason Kenney, then yeah, maybe you go for those things now. But I would call those high risk, low reward. And so if Jason Kenney's opponents are smart, and I'm not saying necessarily that they've acted in the smartest fashion lately, they're not going to try to push those things too hard or too fast. They're going to downplay them. They're going to say, they're not really important. We know that that this is a convention that has more loyalists of Jason Kenney, you know, they're really going to try to minimize the likelihood that that's going to pass. Because what's your best outcome there? You get this leadership review a month early? I don't know about that. I'm just not sure it's worth the risk of you losing that vote after clearly going for it, which will strengthen Jason Kenney. Carter,

Zain 39:37

Carter, jump in on the strategy. And I do want to get into Team Kenney, Team Not Kenney, and then Team X, which is X denotes a person in that room who may want to seek the leadership and what their strategies need to be this weekend. Before we're doing that, address this point about the 22 CAs. Do you feel like they're going to reach that threshold prior to this convention? And what would be the smart thing for someone to do if they wanted Jason Kenney gone at this moment in time, building off on what Corey said?

Carter 40:06

I think the smart thing to do is to wait till April.

Carter 40:09

I think the smart thing to do is if you want Jason Kenney to go, then

Carter 40:13

then just Just keep the pressure on Jason Kenney all the way through April. The odds of him recovering significantly between now and March or what it's going to be. Build your case for the actual leadership review vote. Don't, you know, kill him with kindness. Give him a chance, guys. Here are the three things I expect him to achieve by March the 31st. Or I have no choice but to vote no. I expect to see a rebound in the polls. I mean, I have to see it. I can't vote for him if there's not a rebound in the polls. I care too much about the party. I have to see that he's listening to us, that his grassroots guarantee was worth the paper it was written on. I haven't seen that in today's convention, but it doesn't mean he can't pull it out between now and March 31st. I have to see that because I believe in the grassroots. I believe in this party. And the third thing I need to see, I need to see how the rest of us feel. I need us to feel like a team again because it's the team that brought us here and it's the team that's going to take us forward. And if I see those three things, I'll tell you what, I'm voting for them. i'm

Carter 41:11

i'm voting for him carter

Carter 41:15

like carter you that

Zain 41:18

you may have a bit of lived experience i've

Carter 41:19

i've done that once or twice i don't know when i have no evidence but you know that

Carter 41:24

that was very good

Carter 41:24

if you're gonna take down the leader that's how you take down the leader you kill him with that you kill him with kindness i

Carter 41:29

don't want to vote against this guy this is the guy who brought us all together this is the guy who made us happen but my god if we're still stuck at 20 oh my

Carter 41:37

my god we have no choice yeah

Corey 41:40

yeah that's the conversation that you want to be driving that's exactly what i mean when i say that you start ratcheting it up slowly and you have have these things in a way that people will not have this backlash to or this reaction because you sound like the reasonable person then you're not being intransigent you're not saying no way no how you're saying let's give him a shot we owe him that but let's be frank he is so far behind what What do we do? Right. That that is a much more digestible and acceptable line for a party stalwart to take than one of let's blow this fucker up.

Zain 42:09

Corey, I want to give you a moment on this question, which is the only person that can propose new resolutions is Jason Kenney, the party leader. Many people freaking out about it, including Blaise Bomer, former Kenney staffer, seems like he's saying it's hard to read into this, saying here lies the grassroots guarantee 2017 to 2021. rest in peace almost implying that this is a affront to the aforementioned grassroots guarantee cory why is this you you briefly mentioned it not as ridiculous as as some people are making it online in your opinion yeah

Corey 42:38

yeah well for starters let's

Corey 42:40

let's just say um blaze bomer former kenny staffer anytime anybody's a former staffer you have to ask and i don't have any sense of this i don't know how their parts or paths stopped but are we 100 sure that there's not some sort of some some personal angle on here, I think you can just entirely discount that. So don't, you know, don't read too much into that world. It's not saying the sky is falling any more than it already was for Jason Kenney, and he was already in a bad state. The other thing is the rule says no resolutions other than the special resolutions and resolutions approved by the board will be considered with the exception of those proposed by the leader.

Corey 43:14

I don't think that's very different from almost any other convention I've ever been at.

Corey 43:18

Right? You know, the fact that this is being Being propped up as an example of a betrayal of the grassroots is

Corey 43:23

interesting, but I can't think of a convention I've been at where anybody would entertain just a random resolution from the floor. That never happens. These are pretty scripted affairs for

Zain 43:32

for the most part.

Carter 43:33

You have to submit months in advance. They go through your vetting process. And there's

Corey 43:38

there's a process for urgent resolutions, a.k.a. special resolutions, and there's nothing in that sentence I just read that suggests that that process doesn't exist now, right? There are certain criteria that need to be met for it to be considered a special resolution. I'm sure. I don't know what they are in the UCP. But again, not really any different than any other political party. But this is a great example of how when you're doing wrong, you can do no right.

Corey 44:02

And everything is going to be picked up as more evidence of Jason Kenney betraying the grassroots, of doing things in this fashion that is totally unbecoming for a party that's supposed to be a grassroots party. I've used this adage before. I'll use it again. Again, it's, you know, if you don't

Corey 44:17

don't like a person, the way they hold their fork will irritate you. If you do like a person, they can drop their plate of food in your lap and you're not going to care. And Jason Kenney is in I fucking hate the way he holds his fork territory with some people.

Zain 44:30

Carter, Corey, let's do this. Let's get into the strategy of this for a second. So it's convention weekend. I'm going to place you guys there, right? Convention weekend. We know that the main— We

Carter 44:39

We paid our thousand bucks to be observers. This is pretty cool.

Zain 44:42

cool. Well, you've actually—there's actually a strategist level. So we've got a—our sponsor is covering our fee for us, so worry not. Yeah, so we are there, the three of us, and there's three different hospitality suites on Saturday morning. And what you are doing is that Saturday

Corey 44:58

morning— That's a dumb hospitality suite. All

Zain 44:59

All the folks from each of these three camps have gathered.

Zain 45:03

Room number one is the Team Kenny folks. You have gathered them all in the morning to say, okay, these are our marching orders for the day. We know that Saturday evening is when things happen. the leader speaks at around noon on saturday uh so i'm gathering you at 8 a.m sharp friday night was friday night it was freewheeling it was going to be what it's going to be saturday morning you're in that room the first room that you meet with is your your strategist on team kenny at the convention um we've got a couple of things on the on the roster number one we're spending our resources to host several hospitality suites some of them are going to be hosted by team jason in kenny team whatever others are maybe hosted by corporations who are on our side we're gonna have 20 cas as carter said host another room we're gonna have in terms of volume the most amount of hospitality suites secondly we're gonna throw in the charm offensive that's

Zain 45:55

that's what i've heard thus far build on that for me cory what else are you adding to that list in terms of that one sheet that you're handing to everyone that you're telling them to burn right after they leave the room what's on that sheet for the team kenny folks as they head into saturday uh to to talk to delegates, media, GR folks, etc.

Corey 46:13

Well, the missing thing here is the story. What's the story? Why are we here? How can we get out of here? How do we get to the election? You know, the first point that Stephen said is, if we're still at 20% in the polls, then I got I mean, I don't really have a choice. That's a real feeling that any political party under siege like that is going to be feeling. And so what's your narrative? Sell me sell me on why we're here, and make it a hero narrative that gets us back to where we've got to be. So it's Jason Kenney made the tough decision decisions, unpopular, you know, a good compromise leaves everybody dissatisfied, whatever it is, whatever you're going to be spinning out there, it's got to be a consistent story. And it's got to be one that reinforces a narrative that will ultimately help you both in the day and then down the road, because you've got to keep your eyes on that April deadline. And frankly, you got to keep your eyes on the election too. And to get there, you've got to create a sense of unity and energy. So

Corey 47:02

build that story and make sure everybody knows that three bullet story and can repeat it to absolutely everybody in the room. Ideally, it's tested. Ideally, you know it's going to be working with the people that are there. But here's the other thing that I do want to stress, and anybody who's been to like an old school real convention will know.

Corey 47:19

A convention body is knowable. It's not an anonymous crowd. You have a list of every delegate, and if they've been around in the party for any length of time, somebody knows them, and somebody has a connection, and you work all of those connections. And then you start working those connections to see who they They know that you didn't have on your list and you build out and you build these coalitions on a person-by-person basis to make sure that you control the room and that the people who are ornery that you need to talk to, you're talking to, the people who are ornery that you can't help, you're isolating, you've got to build plans specific to them. So I'm imagining that in that room, Zane, there are people who have, you know, cross-cutting responsibilities, geographic responsibilities. You're going to make sure that these writings support me. uh you know interest group responsibilities you're going to make sure that people in the

Corey 48:09

agriculture committee support me you're going to make sure the people on the energy sector support me and or whatever it is so on so forth cutting across those lines um because at the end of the day it's about finding individuals and convincing individuals with what will make their minds up and so don't be surprised if your version of the story multifaceted and really quite dependent on who's doing the talking and what they're talking about carter

Zain 48:32

carter i heard a couple of things here i heard story i heard uh i heard supporters i'm also hearing a bit about success uh you know what does success look like outlining it in your mind what does that success look like for for the team kenny group as they head into uh saturday the main day of of convention weekend survive

Carter 48:51

survive the day you

Carter 48:52

you know imagine what happens if no one goes to the keynote at noon

Carter 48:56

right no one goes they just decide not to go there and there's 85 people in the room them

Carter 49:02

right out of your 1500 and those 85 people are sitting there and they're all your guys they're all going to clap and and do everything but it sounds even more pathetic because there's only 85 people there so you've got to survive the day and

Carter 49:12

and and the way i put you know if i've got my 75 80 loyalists in the room having breakfast being fed you know just nothing but a nothing but meat that's that's their breakfast because they're all that's all they need is protein to go hard all day They're going to get all the protein. I'm going to give them all the protein. I'm going to say to them, it's not about Jason Kenney anymore, guys.

Carter 49:34

Today is not about Jason Kenney. Today is the first step of the UCP being able to show that we're going to still be a governing party.

Carter 49:40

And that means we're going to fill every hall. That means we're going to talk at every policy session.

Carter 49:45

session. That means we're going to behave ourselves when we're in the room.

Carter 49:49

It's not about Jason Kenney.

Carter 49:51

Jason Kenney could fall on his sword tomorrow and the party is still fucked. The

Carter 49:55

party needs to recover, and that recovery starts today. That recovery starts today, and that should be our primary message.

Carter 50:02

We're going to talk about filling a room, and we're going to talk about applauding the UCP rallying lines. It doesn't matter if they're said by the president of the party. It doesn't matter if they're said by Jason Kenney. It doesn't matter if they're said by the young woman or young man that's singing the national anthem. Whoever says the thing that we believe is getting an applause line from us, because we need to show that we're a party that cares

Carter 50:25

cares and can govern. I don't care what your feelings are about Jason Kenney. Don't care.

Carter 50:30

Not relevant today. Today is about the party.

Zain 50:33

Corey, jump in here.

Corey 50:35

The first word of the—you're killing it tonight, Carter. It just pains me to say it, but I couldn't agree more. First word in the party's name is united, and that's got to be the feeling. And this builds on some of the things we were talking about last week. You're Jason Kenney. You built this party. You own United. and everything about being a united party just reinforces your own brand value okay

Zain 50:57

let's move it on to that second category i mentioned which is you

Zain 51:00

you want to defeat jason candy carter we've thrown out a lot of things i'm going to try to summarize as many as i picked up on over the conversation so i'm hearing that we want to do our own version of the charm offensive that that we're going to kill him with kindness that we're not going to necessarily have knives out if we're wanting to defeat jason kenny but we want to do it with kindness you talked about what the messaging on that looks like well i'll ask you to dig into that a bit more you also threw out the tactic and i want you to stress test it with you if perhaps not showing up to the keynote speech and maybe organizing around that but let me put you guys back in the same room you're done with the first room i give you another task which is go to the other room down the hall this is a group of folks they may have very different agendas but they have one thing in common, which is that they know that Jason Kenney needs to go. Carter, let's talk about their goals for Saturday or the weekend overall. What are their goals? Because if Team Kenney's goal is to survive the weekend, is this group's goal to make sure he's gone by the weekend? It can't be that, right? So what does their goal look like for the weekend? Let's start there, and then let's reframe some of the tactics we've already thrown out on the table.

Carter 52:07

Well, I think your goal is to make it to March. I

Carter 52:09

I mean, I think that if you're in this position, what you want to be doing is you actually want to establish relationships and you don't know who's for kenny and who's against kenny i mean it's relatively easy to assume that everybody's against kenny but

Carter 52:20

but this is the party that put them there and the 20 percent of people who actually support kenny in the province of alberta are the most likely to attend this event right so let's say that half the room are people that actually support kenny you do not want to be talking to 50 of the delegates and saying it's time for that fucker to go and then trying to organize them in march and april to support your your leadership candidate, right?

Carter 52:42

right? What you want to be able to do is kind of put things into what I had couched it in, those three different things, those three different things. It's not about Kenny. It's about our party. It's about retaining government. We can't hand things back to the NDP. If we hand this government back to the NDP, let's not forget what a disaster it was four years ago. We have only been taken down by a natural disaster that's worldwide. No one has managed this well. No one has got themselves in a perfect position. Jason Kenney has suffered, but we need to we need to remember that it was the NDP fucking things up before we even got into into into the office that really made this tough. So we got to survive till March. Let's

Carter 53:25

Let's give him the opportunity. And then in March, if he's not doing well, I think he's going to step down anyways. He won't put himself through the indignity of the leadership review and we can launch a leadership under the proper circumstances. circumstances that's

Carter 53:37

that's what we you know so change your story to to very very soft do not be blaze bomer basically if blaze bomer's doing something like going after the leader saying the grassroots declaration is dead do the opposite of what blaze bomer does that's what needs to be managed so

Zain 53:55

so carter's saying success looks like make it till march uh the strategy here is kill them with kindness right ultimately talk about the party cory you've mentioned a bit of this as well right Right. The iterative ratcheting up of the volume, the seeding of certain conversations being like, you know, he needs to deliver a killer speech. He didn't do that. Those sort of things, almost like predetermined lines. Yes. And this from for me, Corey, what else are you adding to the mix? If you're on this this group of of supporters that, you know, are anti Kenny, what are you trying to tell them to do? do? And what are you trying to get them to do on the floor heading into the critical period of the speech and then into Saturday night?

Corey 54:36

So Carter's talked about a few of them here. There's a really big one for me. And that is, if I'm talking in that room, it is don't let them make us the villains. Be

Corey 54:44

nice to everybody. Be polite to everybody. If you see somebody raise their voice

Corey 54:49

on our side, call them out. Swearing, call them out. Being rude, call them out.

Corey 54:55

But speak your your mind don't be afraid be polite be firm say i just want more for this party make it clear this party is united this is not some sort of splinter faction this is this is a united conservative movement that is interested in those grassroots values that we all signed on to that jason kenney signed on to at one point and our job as the grassroots as the representative of the grassroots is to politely but firmly hold the leader to account on those things cory

Zain 55:20

cory and carter to you for either of you to jump in is there any overarching tactics that you feel like you you would um suggest or recommend to this group carter you threw out the one of not showing up to speech that one keeps coming back to my mind is that something you would do is that a bridge too far is there any other tactical things that you do do you try to compete fire with fire to say we're going to also host um united hospitality suites or something like that i'm kind of throwing out tactical ideas for what could go on on the weekend are you handing out flyers or posters to try to course correct the direction of the conversation, just throwing out random things. But curious to hear your thoughts on this. Well,

Carter 55:54

Well, let's just say that you've now hired me to be the most aggressive, biggest asshole that I possibly can be. And let me just say, that's pretty big. Okay, so that's big time. The way I would do it is I would say, okay, we're not attending anything that's vaguely associated with the leader's hospitality suites. Okay.

Carter 56:13

So we need to make sure that our hospitality hospitality suites are bigger and more engaging. We need to have more of them. I don't want a single person going to the leader's lunch. Instead, what we're going to do is we're going to host our own lunch across the street or wherever, you know, somewhere else in the in the Gray Eagle. Yeah,

Corey 56:31

Yeah, listen, can I jump in on that? Yeah. It's not the Brian Jean lunch. It's the grassroots lunch. It's the grassroots hospitality

Carter 56:38

Yeah. And it's it's all all about grassroots and there is no leadership contenders there because it's you who matters. Right. And, you know, ironically it's really quite communist because it feels like a commune. Everybody gets the exact same food, the same number of beers and everything else. But it's just, that's ironic the way that unfolded. But you, you, if you want to organize this to be the worst thing that you can do, then you're handing out like you're, you're, you're, you're doing the flash pad, you know what did, what did Christy Clark have? the eight o'clock club that 801 club or whatever it was but 801 after she lost the election they'd force her out and everybody had a uh a pin underneath her lapel

Carter 57:20

was there man i had it it

Corey 57:22

was me did you really no

Carter 57:26

was like christy clark anyways my point is that all of these things are available to you you could go this aggressive but what are you gaining To Corey's point, what are they going to do? He's going to step down in January

Carter 57:41

January now? Because he's not going to step down in November, December. He's not going to do it just before Christmas. He'll do it in January. So what'd you gain? Two months? And now you got to launch a leadership in the middle of the fucking winter? Who wants that? No one wants a leadership in the winter. Wait until April. Have a nice little leadership when you can go outside and have a barbecue, especially at the risk of more COVID problems. This is the way to go.

Zain 58:04

So hold on. I just want to be clear. are you recommending the lunch idea the grassroots lunch is that a go you

Carter 58:08

you hired me to be a prick if

Carter 58:10

if i was to be a prick that's what i would do no no if i was to be strategic yeah what i would do is is be you know we're going to give them to march but here are the three things i need to see i think that that was the most effective cory

Zain 58:22

cory you want to yes end on that before we we go to that third category yeah

Corey 58:26

yeah if you're going to do the lunch thing if you're going to try to empty the crowd or you're going to just have the crowd but have the crowd not applaud that's a that's a a tricky thing to do that's a bit of a high wire act and at a certain point uh there are other levers that the leader can pull that can make it seem less like that's actually what's occurred there so just be aware that that's a that's a tough one to do because you're basically encouraging people to go out and show disloyalty to the party at least that's how the leader will frame it afterwards right like you wanted this party to fail on primetime you wanted us to look look like clowns and uh yeah when you've got a crowd of 200 over there it'll

Corey 59:03

but god help you trying to get the first 10 people over there and people aren't dumb again at conventions there's known commodities you might have 50 organizers who are willing to go walk across to the grassroots lunch that 51st person isn't

Corey 59:16

isn't it knows they're the first person let's put it that way so it's a tough one and your risk of failure with an initiative like that is very very Which is exactly why Stephen's more strategic approach is probably the smart one. In general, it's

Corey 59:30

it's an interesting one, because if you're Jason Kenney, you need to do well enough on this convention weekend. But if you're his opponents, there's no winning beyond, like, you're not going to get the situation where all of a sudden everything resolves on the weekend, right? And I just – I don't know why you would put so much – the risk-reward benefit is very different for you if you're an opponent to Jason Kenney because as it stands, the

Corey 59:56

the risk is all Kenney's. But the minute you start organizing and trying to make it a bigger deal, the risk becomes yours. You show your weakness. You strengthen Kenney's hand. So there's just no good reason to do that. And instead, just

Corey 1:00:08

just have kind of a lame convention. Don't try to have a lethal one. Let

Zain 1:00:13

me ask you one more question before I jump into this final category, which is I brushed by this, but Corey, you mentioned the term primetime. So clearly media is part of this. For either the Team Kenny supporters or for the Team Anti-Kenny supporters, is there any sort of back-channeling media relations that you two would be doing if those were your tribes or campaigns that you were running on the floor for Saturday and parts of Sunday? What would you be doing for either of those? I drove right past it, but I want to address it. Yeah.

Corey 1:00:42

right? Both sides need to be managing expectations down. So if you're Jason Kenney, it's, well, look, we know it's been a tough time. We know that there have been, you know, instigators within the caucus who have been more

Corey 1:00:53

more than happy to try to bring this leader down at a time when we're trying to manage a public health crisis and we've had to make unpopular decisions. Do we think it's going to be 11? No. We think it's going to be the first step towards rebuilding that trust with the grassroots, which is something we're committed to be doing. uh on the other hand if you are the if you're the opponents i'm just going to use brian jean as a proxy here and you're whispering to your media contacts what you're doing is you're managing expectations the other way you're saying come on this is a party convention in a party that jason kenny himself created

Corey 1:01:24

created the first organizer class for right you're you're never giving it to the grassroots you're saying it's about the organizers jason kenny's organizers are going to show up in volume here and they are going to clap when they're told to clap they're going to sit when and they're told to sit, and they're going to go and pass the policies they're told to pass. But what you need to know is that the grassroots voice will be heard in April when the leadership review comes forward. Lower your expectations on that one.

Zain 1:01:49

Carter, do you want to add anything to the media relations side before we move to that third category?

Carter 1:01:53

No, Corey nailed it.

Carter 1:01:54

Corey is so smart.

Zain 1:01:57

Let's move to that third category. He got

Carter 1:01:58

got one, and I got everything else.

Zain 1:02:01

That's pretty good. It's a good role reversal. So, Carter, you're now heading

Zain 1:02:07

heading up a couple floors. This is not a hospitality suite. This is not a suite packed with 20 people, hyper-engaged supporters of either the Kenny or the anti-Kenny sort of squad that's going to go do their work on the convention floor. No, this room has five people in it. You walk in. There is one existing minister of the UCP, and there are four of his or her closest aides. And this person tells you in confidence, I need this guy gone. I have ambitions for leadership. Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan, you are in that room. Corey, you've already told us a bit about what your strategy might be for a person that is in this position. It's probably not the Brian Jean strategy. And this person, to be totally clear, is not Brian Jean. It is someone else other than Brian Jean. He's already carved out his lane, and we've addressed it tangentially in the past and in this episode. But Carter, this is someone else, someone who has visions for the party, someone currently maybe holds a position in the party. Let's say they're a cabinet minister within the party. They have an agenda. They've laid it out to you. What does their one sheet start with in terms of their goals for success this weekend? And then let's walk through their strategy and tactics of what they do as a person, knowing that the that the the brain trust and the membership and the hyper engaged with the party are here this weekend. And you need to engage with them for the next 24 hours in Saturday morning. You're having breakfast with them. What is the first thing you're saying, Carter?

Carter 1:03:33

Whatever you do, do not fall off that train.

Carter 1:03:36

Go to him and say, boss, you're the boss. What should I be doing?

Carter 1:03:40

Support him every step of the way. Because at the end of the day, this is still a guy who can lash out and end your political career.

Carter 1:03:50

Make sure that those messages that I was delivering on his behalf, those messages you're going to deliver. Your people are going to deliver them. You're going to make sure you're not going to play any stupid games. The person who puts the knife in the back of the leader never wins the leadership.

Carter 1:04:09

Be the person who's just there. right

Carter 1:04:12

right loyalty will give you a reward and that reward will be felt in march or april when the leadership campaign starts you won't be the first one in you'll be the one um you know maybe a third one in uh but that's okay because you'll appear loyal and i would say to you the five people in the room you heard nothing you saw nothing this is not a conversation that took place this minister is loyal to jason kenney this minister is loyal to the ucp but

Zain 1:04:39

but steven is now the the de facto campaign manager of this minister when if and when they enter but steven jason kenney he's toxic loyalty might seem like the right strategy uh but but he's toxic uh you're telling me i need to support him in this convention won't i be won't there be a scarlet letter so to speak that says this is a kenny person like it's done for me cory jump in before

Corey 1:05:03

before i go to you carter yeah i mean look look first carter stole my bit because the thing i would say is you've already fucked up by having this little meeting here now you're gonna hope nobody saw me come in you're gonna go out and when somebody puts a microphone in front of you you're gonna say i'm a proud member of this ucp government i'm here to hear from the grassroots as i know we all are right

Corey 1:05:21

end of list and here's the thing zane you

Corey 1:05:24

you can say that you can say he's toxic you can say he's he's problematic the

Corey 1:05:29

the reality is the next leader usually comes from the past leader's orbit fucking vladimir putin worked for the kgb under the soviet union and he's been president of russia for how many years now i just that's

Corey 1:05:41

that's that's actually a weird example but there's a weird fucking

Zain 1:05:45

that's good it's good that's uh this we've got an episode titled the putin strategy uh of course of course There's Taylor's version.

Corey 1:05:55

You know, it's hard to come from absolutely nowhere and become leader of a party. And at the end of the day, Carter's right. You put the knife in him and you're going to – that's going to be what you're remembered for. That's what you're going to be marred with. And even if you do manage to get the leadership at that point, look forward to the knife coming in your back in the not-too-distant future when somebody says, yeah, he did it to the last guy. Fuck him. Right?

Zain 1:06:17

So, Stephen, unbridled, enthusiastic support. Am I going to all the hospitality suites? Am I clapping at all the lines? Am I what am I? Am I tempering

Carter 1:06:27

tempering anything that I do? Am

Zain 1:06:28

Am I just because

Carter 1:06:29

you're a fucking cabinet minister? And if you actually thought he was toxic, if you actually thought this is the wrong direction of the party, then you should have stepped out. if you're if you're a cabinet minister yesterday then you can't be the guy who stamps the fucking leader in the back today so get on board drive it forward the cabinet ministers should be the ones carrying the load and if there's any cabinet minister out there thinking to themselves you know what i should do i should make sure this guy gets pulled down resign resign today resign this week before you get to this meeting because at least then you'll have some principles to stand on i'm a cabinet minister this premier made me the cabinet minister this premier is the only reason i stay a cabinet minister but fuck him no fuck you you don't have any integrity cory

Corey 1:07:16

cory you're nodding your head yeah

Corey 1:07:19

amen there's one thing i can't tolerate it's that kind of madness in a political party if you truly do not want to be there for the leader get off the train nobody is forcing you to stay in cabinet nobody is forcing you to stay in cabinet you're just being in a shallow, disingenuous shit if you're sitting there organizing against the leader that has you on the team. Don't want to be on the team? Totally fine position to take. Get off the team.

Zain 1:07:42

Carter and Corey, you guys have opened up another question. I know we're... Well, just time. What's time? What's time? There's always one

Zain 1:07:49

There's always one more. What's time? At Flair Airlines, we ask the same. What is time? And what is your time worth?

Zain 1:07:57

Corey, okay, so okay, cabinet minister, I mean, I mean, I really agree with what you guys have just said, both in terms of strategy and just like if I can call like the morality of that, your current position and

Zain 1:08:07

and the ethics of your position. OK, let's

Zain 1:08:09

let's say you're a longtime conservative supporter, a statesman, a non-elected person. What's your strategy heading into this weekend? Like you're just observing. You're just like seeing what's up. Like if you've got leadership ambitions, but from the outside, but from saying that, you know, Jason Kenney may have just tainted this entire cabinet. minute. Their whole concept of swapping the leader in April, May, June, whenever they do it, I think is too shallow, that there's a fundamental change needed, that I'm someone who may have held political office in the past, maybe a household name, or maybe wanting to make a name for myself by running for leadership of this party. Is there anything I need to keep in mind if I have a five minute conversation with you in the hallway saying, hey, guys, just so you know, like, hey, I may not not be interested, you know, like, this could be something I consider. What is my game plan for the weekend. Corey, can I go to you first on this?

Corey 1:08:59

Well, again, it's not that that much. I mean, you're a little more free to say things like, hey, if the leadership was open, I might be interested. Okay. But I guess this is a good time to telegraph that. No,

Corey 1:09:08

No, no, it's not because like, at the end of the day, what's going to happen is you're going to have two battleships knock each other into the deep, deep sea. And then somebody is going to want somebody to unite the two sides. And if you align yourself strongly with one of those sides, that's a strategy. But you better be damn sure that that side's big enough that nobody cares about the other side.

Carter 1:09:26

Look at the two politicians that are political people who are currently running around and attacking the leader from outside or from inside. Blaze and Brian Jean, right?

Carter 1:09:37

right? Are they the political luminaries that you wish to follow their example? No,

Carter 1:09:41

No, not really. If you're going to do this, then just go there and talk about the values of the United Conservative Party that drew you in, the values that you are attached to, the values that the grassroots members are attached to.

Carter 1:09:55

That's the way that you win them over. And you can do that in a fashion that doesn't look like you're not being supportive of the current leader. The worst thing you could do is to go in and basically start to declare or show that you are a person who's even remotely interested because you will wear that stink for the rest of your career.

Zain 1:10:13

Corey, let's round out this segment with the thing I've been dancing around, which is Jason Kenney's speech, right? It's going to be the highlight of what the media cover. It's going to be the highlight of the most amount of fodder. Um,

Zain 1:10:26

storytelling, we've talked about it. What's the story Jason Kenney needs to tell, uh, as he talks to the most loyal UCP members, uh, this coming weekend?

Corey 1:10:35

So I do believe this is, this is the narrative that I was talking about. The thing that you would arm those people in that first room with.

Corey 1:10:41

Jason Kenney's got to do that for the entire crowd and beyond. He's got to explain why, why he's actually a hero in this story, right? Uh, I, I made the tough decisions. I, I did the tough calls. I tried to make sure we could remain this free society that we've always wanted to be, but while respecting the need for public health, you know, in

Corey 1:11:01

fact, he's sort of test run this a number of times he's gone to the microphone recently. And I've said this, and I'll say it again, if you sort of turn off the part of your brain that has any sort of historical memory, it sounds pretty good. It sounds really good. He's not bad at spitting those kinds of stories. thing is we do have memories and we do recall exactly what kind of actions he's taken and so his his challenge is really just to repeat it enough that people start to believe it and also arm his supporters with it that's a room full of people that should have more supporters than most so

Corey 1:11:32

so that when they're out talking to their neighbors and their neighbors say that jason kenney not

Corey 1:11:37

not working for me anymore just not working for me he says well yeah well he had to make the tough calls and isn't that what we want our leaders to do and by the way did you know the The economy is now on a tear up. And by the way, did you know all of a sudden that Alberta has rocketed to going to have the highest GDP growth next year? And whatever your key messages are, but it's a narrative through the past to the present and forecast into the future here that says exactly why the UCP not only did what was necessary, but by doing so, they will position themselves for greater success.

Zain 1:12:06

Corey, how much of it in your mind is focused on the NDP? the comparison of yeah okay it's either it's either yes i'm flawed i had to make tough choices i mean i'll say flawed but it's like it's either me or them it's not like perfection that i'm the old adage of like you know uh the almighty versus the alternative how much of this is about the alternative versus a standard idealized version of perfection that people may have in their mind it's

Corey 1:12:27

it's a convention speech it'll be a lot about the alternative just as rachel notley's was largely about jason kenney right and we started talking about uh the conservative movement

Corey 1:12:38

nationally and how uh talking about this coalition and this is the cause that we are here to stop that's that's language that's readily available to you as a conservative leader in alberta as well we went through this journey we did these difficult things we never said it would be easy let's be clear let's be real with each other we were different parties three years ago but we put aside those differences and we did it for the betterment of this province and by doing so we've We've managed to do X, Y, Z, rattle off all of the things that you think you're proud of, right? And we can do it again, but

Corey 1:13:08

but we only do it if we stay united. We know what's occurred when we're not united, and we can't risk having the opposition in charge. Like this is the basic template of the speech.

Zain 1:13:18

Carter, do you want to build on anything you've heard from Corey here on what Jason Kennedy's delivered to convention delegates this weekend?

Carter 1:13:24

If I were him, I'd pull out the speeches that he was delivering when he was forming the party.

Carter 1:13:28

And I would say, and I would repeat all the great highlights of those speeches. us. And I have to remind people, I'd say on, you know, blank date in, you know, 20, what

Carter 1:13:38

what was it, 2015? What was it? Was it 2017 when he was doing all this? 2016, 2017?

Corey 1:13:43

2017 is when it all came

Carter 1:13:44

came out. Yeah. So on March the 15th, 2017, I was in the great town of Vulcan, Alberta, and I said this, and then on, you know, and I got these feedback from these people that I spoke to. And, And, you know, I listened when I named them Francine

Carter 1:13:59

Francine and Frank came up to me and said to me after that speech, you know, Mr. Kenny, this is what we need. And I said, you know what? That's it. It is a grassroots guarantee. It comes from me and is being delivered to these people.

Carter 1:14:14

And I would, you know, all the greatest hits that came from that leadership or that that pulling everybody together is how I would do it. And I call people out by name. I was in your living room.

Carter 1:14:25

I was in your living room.

Carter 1:14:27

You know, Alice and Steve, I was in your living room and I heard what you had to say. You brought together seven of your friends. Poor Zane couldn't find a girlfriend. But everybody else, everybody else was able to come with their partners. And this is the type of, you know, this is the coalition that we've been able to build.

Carter 1:14:46

You know, four partners and Zane.

Zain 1:14:50

also great episode title cory um what's

Zain 1:14:55

what's the headline you want to engineer if you're jason kenny for this speech it carter's almost dancing around i hear you i heard you and i hear you if there is a headline that you could wish into existence if you were on team kenny what would you want it to be for this speech well

Corey 1:15:09

well a realistic one yeah and he sets the stakes right sets the the stakes for his party sets the stakes for the province right and uh and allows him to sort of define his version of the ballot

Corey 1:15:20

ballot question to come both for himself and then also down the road in the provincial election um the next best thing is nothing frankly the convention where it's just so unnewsworthy after all of this amped upness that that it's not really reported on with any kind of volume we're

Zain 1:15:36

we're going to leave that segment there move it on to our final segment the over under in their lightning round, Stephen Carter. We do it for you. We add on an extra 10 minutes just for you because this is where you perform at peak Stephen Carter levels. And we're going to start here overrated, underrated. We've got media reports coming out from CBC, the Calgary Herald and others saying that Justin Trudeau is going to be in town tomorrow, i.e. Monday, here to sign a child care agreement with the province for Jason Kenney and

Zain 1:16:04

and the political issues surrounding him heading into the convention, this child care deal coming on the Monday before the Sunday of the convention, overrated or underrated, with that particular frame in mind?

Carter 1:16:17

Underrated. I think that this is him getting things done. I think that, you know, this is a really unique opportunity for himself to show that he can get stuff done. And if I were running his government, I'd be saying, OK, how many things can we get done with how many different levels of government, right?

Carter 1:16:33

right? Right. And finding all kinds of partnerships and all kinds of things that they can get done that doesn't cost them a lot of money. And this one comes with a pretty big check attached to it. So strikes

Carter 1:16:43

strikes me as a pretty good deal.

Zain 1:16:45

Great. With that lens of Jason Kenney's political fortunes, overrated or underrated, the child care deal going to be signed, if reports are correct, tomorrow with the federal and provincial governments here in Alberta.

Corey 1:16:57

I guess I'll go with overrated. This is an interesting one for me because we're recording on a Sunday. We don't know the details of the child care deal, although we do know that there's a private operator who is going to be joining up there. So you have to imagine that private operators are probably a bigger part of the Alberta deal than other deals. But it's interesting and it's risky because if this is seen as a big government program that is aligned with the Trudeau liberals, it could hurt him at his convention. But if he can legitimately say we have really held the feet to the fire of the Trudeau liberals, We've gotten back a program that is materially different, that is appropriate for Alberta, that respects our diversity of options that are available here, including private operators, including the fact that not everybody has two parents who are working. Sometimes it's the grandmother who's watching. Sometimes it's a day home, whatever it is, right? If it truly looks a little bit different than everywhere else and a little bit more small government than everywhere else, it could be a real win for him. And I have to imagine based on the timing that

Corey 1:17:59

that he at least feels it's more like that than the big statist option that he's been painting the liberal choice as. So really interesting. And because of the timing and because I assume that he is – that he's not totally lost his mind, I suspect that he thinks it will help him with that convention. So probably it's – You

Carter 1:18:19

You don't remember where you started. I meant underrated.

Carter 1:18:21

You don't remember where you started. I think it's probably

Carter 1:18:23

yourself into underrated. You talked yourself into underrated. You meant underrated.

Carter 1:18:27

No, you talked yourself underrated. It occurs to me I said overrated. You started as overrated. I

Zain 1:18:31

meant underrated, the Stephen Carter story. Corey, I'm going to stick with you. We should get a montage of all the times I

Zain 1:18:41

say something and then call it the Stephen Carter story. I bet there's like 20 of them.

Zain 1:18:46

Corey, Aaron O'Toole's named a shadow cabinet. Notable omissions include Lesley Lewis, Marilyn Gladue. uh interesting points include uh pierre polyavra uh as finance uh overall though shadow cabinet's overrated underrated in your mind overrated

Corey 1:19:02

overrated i don't think you could name more than three members of any shadow cabinet he literally federally

Zain 1:19:08

i named a line two of them are not a

Corey 1:19:10

he's got a fucking list in front of i don't i really i run into zane velgey on the street you think zane even can tell us what aaron o'toole's job i don't think i

Carter 1:19:17

i don't think so I don't

Carter 1:19:18

don't think this main building could name three strategists if you ran into them.

Zain 1:19:24

Carter's shadow cabinets, overrated, underrated. They're

Carter 1:19:26

They're overrated. I don't think anybody could ever name three of them.

Zain 1:19:29

I'm going to stick with you. The provincial – I have to power through. The provincial NDP – Certainly not on the street.

Carter 1:19:35

street. Not on the street, yeah. The

Zain 1:19:36

The provincial NDP here in our home province of Alberta saying this coming Monday – this is from Irfan Sabir, MLA in Calgary – saying this coming Monday, I will table a motion in the legislature that reads, be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly censure the premier for his failed leadership leading up to and through the fourth wave of the COVID-19 pandemic as a strategy, Stephen Carter, a censure of the premier by the official opposition. What do you think of this strategy, overrated or underrated in your mind?

Carter 1:20:05

Overrated. I mean, it's going to be completely forgotten by Wednesday. Wednesday.

Zain 1:20:10

Corey, overrated, underrated this particular strategy by the by the NDP to censure the premier for his failed leadership on the leading up to and through the fourth wave of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Corey 1:20:20

Okay, well, so I think that odds are good, this is going to end up being deeply overrated. Because if this party has any self preservation instinct, they will all vote against it. And it will be the NDP plus Drew Barnes or something like that voting for this I

Carter 1:20:34

I don't even think Todd Lohan would vote for it.

Corey 1:21:02

these folks have shown lately.

Corey 1:21:06

So it's possible tomorrow there's five people we did not know oppose Jason Kenney's leadership that vote against this fucking thing.

Zain 1:21:15

It's interesting from the verbiage because it's very generic, right? On purpose. On failed leadership, right? And so the ability to insert one's definition, it's going to be interesting to see that. Corey, I'm going to stick with you. Go ahead. It's

Corey 1:21:28

It's the fourth wave.

Corey 1:21:30

But here's the thing. The people

Corey 1:21:32

people who are most opposed like i think they would probably even deny like fourth wave they're like this is just like covid needs to be managed it's a thing you just got to live with it you think they mentioned that right right right interesting but

Carter 1:21:41

but uh has the sitting premier ever been censured and

Carter 1:21:45

and is it by a de facto confidence vote well

Corey 1:21:48

well let me tell you i've got this thing called google open it i used to use this thing called alta vista but then it

Corey 1:21:58

yeah remember archie and veronica ask

Zain 1:22:00

ask jeeves ask jeeves cory i'm gonna stick with you for our final question to get us started off uh name the most significant blind spot jason kenny may have heading into ucp agm weekend what do you think the big blind spot uh if you were advising him to be careful of uh this weekend heading into the ucp agm might be

Corey 1:22:26

was googling that censure thing i didn't hear the question yeah

Corey 1:22:30

yeah just go to the blind

Carter 1:22:30

blind spot is cory hogan um

Carter 1:22:34

no the blind spot is is essentially thinking that there's a right answer um because there's there's factions in the ucp he should not be trying to appeal to one of them former

Corey 1:22:45

former nunavut premier paul okalik faced a motion of censure in 2007 about inappropriate appropriate language. The motion passed unanimously, and Mr. Okolik was forced to apologize in public.

Zain 1:22:58

That's it? Is Jason

Corey 1:22:59

Jason Kemy a blind spot? I

Corey 1:23:00

just ended up on a Nunavut page, so, you know. It could

Carter 1:23:03

could happen to anybody.

Corey 1:23:05

Is he a blind spot?

Zain 1:23:07

I was ramping up for the extra. Lay it on me, Corey. What is it?

Corey 1:23:11

If I didn't hear the rest of the question, do you think you could repeat it? We're

Zain 1:23:12

We're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 952 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velgey. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you next time.

Transcript