Episode 815: The Reverse Chicken Little

SPEAKER_00 0:03

This is a Strategist episode 815. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, happy Sunday.

Corey 0:12

Happy Sunday in August. It's a great day.

Carter 0:14

I spent all the day outside again today. How much outsiding did you two do?

Corey 0:20

Well, not very much, because we have acknowledged the fact that civilization for 6,000 years has been an entirely successful contest to allow us to not go outside. I think

Carter 0:31

think you guys got this all wrong.

Corey 0:33

We're children of civilization.

Corey 0:35

You want to go live in the woods, you go live in the woods. That's just fine.

Carter 0:38

guys always miss out on the fun stuff outside.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

There is no fun stuff outside, all indoors, all the time, including, Corey, what this podcast is really about which is the 45 seconds off the top where we get to talk about the nba yeah

Corey 0:51

yeah the bubble nba continues to be moving along smoothly it's you know what the first few games i caught with the fake crowd and the fake crowd noise was a little jarring but now i think it's just an improvement oh

SPEAKER_00 1:03

oh no no this is did you know it's not a fake crowd it's actually a virtual crowd so you can

Corey 1:08

can apply it's microsoft

SPEAKER_00 1:09

microsoft teams you go on microsoft teams we should do that with the strategist

Carter 1:13

yo what what the fuck carter why haven't you gotten us guys i already joined i

Carter 1:18

i am part of the crowd i'm already in you guys are just coming to this now i've already been in i've watched at least three games from outside while i'm you know and been part of the crowd noise it's

SPEAKER_00 1:30

pretty none of this makes any sense no you don't even know your what your one fact strategy is not working regarding the virtual fan no this is one

SPEAKER_00 1:38

one this is very cool all

Carter 1:39

all the time it's

SPEAKER_00 1:40

it's really really interesting because they have these virtual fans that you apply for your like favorite team from, and then there's a different way that a lottery and you get to appear on Microsoft teams, either behind the backboard as part of a, a section, you have to meet your section ahead of time. People are doing weird shit, like bringing goats on screen. It's, it's, it's excellent. It's really, really good. I think, I think we have to replicate this. We have to. Yeah, I agree. Let's figure that out for recording.

Corey 2:07

For recording next week. We

SPEAKER_00 2:09

We should try to do some stuff.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Way we go. We're

SPEAKER_00 2:11

We're going to make people pay to be virtual fans of ours, Carter. We won't have to pay.

Carter 2:17

This is how people make money. You guys got to think outside the box. There's too much time inside. This is what I've learned when I'm outside. Steven,

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Steven, if we had done this podcast for any financial gain whatsoever, we would have done many things differently, least of which would be the virtual fan strategy. uh which which i'm sure people would uh definitely do if we give them a crisp ten dollar bill uh which is what we are offering if you can you can be a virtual fan of ours and steven will directly pay you 10 bucks uh to sit through our next podcast episode yeah

Corey 2:57

i've just been sitting inside uh making enough money not to have to hustle like this so it's

SPEAKER_00 3:04

you guys out if you need the podcast is our side hustle and the side hustle to our side hustle is paying people to be virtual fans we are excellent at this i just want to let you know zip recruiter keep coming you just seen the business strategy guys let's move it on to our first segment our first segment julie payette to move in get

SPEAKER_00 3:26

her name Her name is Julie Payette. No, it's really

SPEAKER_00 3:30

name is Julie Payette, but she hasn't moved in. She's yet to

Carter 3:33

to move in. It's very good.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Okay, so for those who haven't caught this story, Julie Payette, the Governor General of Canada, the actual head of state, as many of you would remind me. No.

Corey 3:46

representative of the actual

SPEAKER_00 3:47

actual head of state. Oh, my God. Yes, we get it. Just qualifier upon qualifier. You know what? I thought I wasn't misspeaking. cake i'm

SPEAKER_00 3:56

i'm glad that i'm glad that no one in my family uh is is uh is uh taking on any representative role of uh of the vice regal so i just just thought i'd throw that out there i'm glad i know i know this stuff didn't they give you a little handout when

Carter 4:10

when you became the vice son to the vice regal yeah

SPEAKER_00 4:14

yeah it hasn't gotten to me yet in the words of donald trump it hasn't gotten to my desk It didn't make it to my desk, just to let you know.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

So, guys, we have Julie Payette, the Governor General of Canada, embroiled in this scandal. It came out a few weeks ago that her staff, 17 people on Deep Background with the CBC, had talked about some of her behaviors with her staff. Now it's coming out that she spent a quarter of a million dollars for some renovations to Redo Hall, partially for security. Another part for, I guess, a cat elevator or a cat staircase of some kind. Anyways, all that being said, she has not moved into Rideau Hall. How big of a problem is this for the government now? Because initially it was interesting. It was fascinating. It was like, oh, look at this PR problem that might exist for Rideau Hall. But now the connection to government seems to be happening. And, Corey, I want to start with you. Is this a problem for the Trudeau government?

Corey 5:09

Sure. Sure. I mean, they picked a multilingual astronaut because they thought it was cool and it matched this vision of Justin Trudeau's Canada. But ultimately, here's the thing about the governor general. It's one of those positions that just

Corey 5:22

just bleeds into the background most of the time. And when you see it, it's usually not a good thing. Usually it means either we've got a bit of a constitutional crisis going on or a lot of gaffes. And we've had a couple of governors general, I suppose, lately who have found themselves in the public eye, Adrian Clarkson, Michelle Jeanne, you know, and never really for great

Corey 5:47

great reasons. You know, either it's dealing with a constitutional crisis or dealing with them doing something that people think the representative has no business doing. Now, here's the thing. It's actually a really important job on paper, even if in practice it's not. You open up the Constitution, do your old Command F, you're going to find Governor General mentioned, I don't know, about 70 times to the Prime Minister's five, and none of those five were before the Constitution Act of 1982. All of the power in this country rests with this position. And so you

Corey 6:19

you ultimately have to start getting a little bit nervous when things start going off the rails so foundationally because Canadians start saying things like, why in the world do we even have a

Corey 6:28

a representative like this? I'm one of them, frankly. I just think it's impossible for us to get rid of the position with our constitution amending formula the way it is. But it makes things awkward for you as a government. It calls into question your judgment as a prime minister. I don't necessarily think this is the

Corey 6:45

the biggest scandal facing the Trudeau government right now, but it's obviously something that they're going to have to watch, and I'm sure they're a little embarrassed about.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Carter, map this out for us. How big of a deal is this for the PMO?

Carter 6:57

It's a problem they don't need. I mean, I guess on some levels it's served as a channel changer from their own problems with the WE Charity. So

Carter 7:05

So this has now changed it to something different, which on some levels they're not necessarily directly responsible for. I mean, certainly they nominated Julie Payette to be the governor general. It doesn't just happen. It's not a lottery, although wouldn't that be cool? It should be. I mean, take a look at those Oilers 50-50s. Hey, we all throw in $100 and the winner gets to be governor general. I'm in. in um but you know one of the things that that cory listed off is he listed off three uh governors general who have been uh embroiled in conflict and scandal and up uptick and uproar and problems and all three of them just happen to be the three women uh the three most recent you know the the three women who've served as the governor general uh we don't hear very much about david johnson um in part i don't know that we didn't because we didn't go looking for it now he did spend spend $76,000 in taxpayer money, you know, on

Carter 8:03

on his expense forms. I mean, he's not devoid of spending money. It turns out people in these jobs spend money. I do think that we are far more willing and prepared to be outraged about our female governors general than we are about our male governors general, as it is in politics in general. You know, serving as a female premier or as a female member of Parliament or as a female member of the Legislative Assembly is a different experience than serving as a male. And I think that this is one of the reasons that this has been such a stink. Now, having said that, this

Carter 8:42

this is now two stories. This is now back-to-back stories. The staffing problem has now been kicked upstairs to someone who's reviewing it somewhere. And this this taxpayer money problem is

Carter 8:55

is also being kicked upstairs. I mean, if I were Justin Trudeau, this

Carter 8:59

would serve as a really nice channel changer. This gets us out of having to get Bill Morneau to step down. So I would be maybe focusing on this a little bit more with my prime minister's office attention. It strikes me as something that keeps

Carter 9:16

keeps the attention off of him.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

So, Carter, are you suggesting that they go from one scandal to a minor scandal as a channel changer? Yeah,

Carter 9:29

Corey, what do you think? It's the working playbook.

Corey 9:33

Well, I don't dispute or contest Stephen's fact that, you know, women in office tend to get more abuse than they deserve and certainly more than their male counterparts. parts. But there is also something else that ties together Adrian Clarkson, Michelle Jeanne, and Piat,

Corey 9:51

Piat, Julie Piat, and that's that they're all appointed by liberal governments. And I think there is a difference in how the liberals and the conservatives tend to have treated this office in the past that we should acknowledge here. The liberals tend to try to find a showy set piece for Governor General that represents the country as they see it and as how we feel, you know, know, diverse, big, bold. You know, and when you have a male prime minister, having a female governor general does seem like a nice counterweight if you're the Liberal Party in particular. So there is that element too. And there's a challenge with that, because when you get big personalities to be governor general, they are going to find themselves in the spotlight more than the David Johnstons of the world. University administrators don't tend to seek the spotlight. That's just not necessarily something that goes with the job. I mean, I mean, there's obviously very charismatic university presidents, but they tend to comport

Corey 10:42

comport themselves in a different fashion. So,

Corey 10:46

So, you know, there's that model of the governor general that the liberals have pushed for the past couple of decades, and there is risk with it. And I think we're seeing what that risk is right now. I

SPEAKER_00 10:56

think you guys both make great points regarding, Corey, the liberal government, as well as, you know, the special sort of, you know, the undue nature of women governor generals as well, and what that's kind of resulted in, especially leading to the conversation on female politicians. That being said, right now, Corey, I'm going to you again, because Carter kind of gave me his answer, and I'll go back to him to get the more fulsome level of it. If you are in the PMO right now, right, if you're tasked with issues managing this, if you're tasked with saying, is this something we lean into? Is this something we shy away from? What are you doing from a messaging and calm strategy right now in the PMO?

Corey 11:38

Oh, you're not going down with this ship. I think you're trying to assess the situation, understand exactly how real it is. You're gathering all of the facts that you can. You are giving yourself a bit of distance from the Governor General. You're reminding people of the nature of the role being separate from the government wherever possible. And certainly, I think we saw that with comments from Chrystia Freeland, I believe it was. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 12:01

that's right. She defended the office, but she didn't defend the person in the office, so to speak. I mean, fuck the office,

Corey 12:07

office, frankly. But they're doing all of those things. And I think they're getting ready to make a change if they need to make a change. They don't want it to be a distraction.

Corey 12:19

They, however, immediately challenged with if they did replace Payette, who do they replace her with?

Corey 12:28

And, you know, what kind of challenges may they be introducing if it is, for example, an Anglophone instead of a Francophone or a man instead of a woman? And

Corey 12:37

that is not a headache that they need either. So I'm sure they would be happier if this all just went away and we could go on with our lives forgetting that there was such thing as a governor general again. That would be preferable for them. I am quite sure.

Corey 12:50

Carter? But really right now it's about distance. It's creating distance and giving yourself options.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

A, do you agree? And B, what else are you – are you actually seriously suggesting that they lean into this story?

Carter 13:00

Well, I think it is a pretty decent channel changer. It takes the heat from you and puts it on someone else. It works on a few different fronts. I mean, she's

Carter 13:11

she's put herself in this position. Why not take advantage of it if you're in the prime minister's office? It keeps you away from the wee charity problem. That's not a bad thing. People do love to focus their attention on, you know, people in power. So I guess it could be something that you would do. I think that the problem is that then what, right? Right. So let's say that you're successful in getting Julie Payette to stand down. She resigns. Now you've got to just nail the next selection. And Corey makes an excellent point about the Liberals wanting to select a standard bearer for all of Canada. It's just it's a really hard thing to do. It's hard to find a single person who reflects the entirety of Canada. I mean, Julie Payette on paper is perfect. uh it's just it's just the the perfection that we've come to expect uh isn't

Carter 14:07

isn't quite there and you

Carter 14:09

you know is it worth a couple you know is it worth a million dollars or two of course is it worth some staff leaving totally is it worth bad publicity maybe not yeah

Corey 14:20

yeah i can't in in support of stevens why not talk about this strategy i can't imagine losing a single vote because you appointed a bad gg like people just don't think it's an important job so you know it doesn't really look like you're imperiling the health system or anything like that it's it's chatter but it's not damaging chatter for the most part now to cut against that though they also don't think it's an important job and if you are a government that can't solve this problem that's not a very good look so if it looks like you are sitting there as the prime minister theoretically the person who runs this country unable to rein in a governor general who who is spending from the public purse far too much, is abusing staff. When you do have all of those levers where you could solve this problem, that becomes a bit of a challenge for them. So for that reason, I don't think I would lean into the problem because I don't think they have good solutions. It would be one thing if you roped it out a bit and then you had a brilliant selection, and maybe they do, but if you had a brilliant selection for Governor General to come in behind. But I don't think that's the case.

Carter 15:17

case. What does a brilliant selection even look like? I mean, Julie Payette really – Well, it probably looks like Julie Payette. Yeah. I mean, she is a brilliant person. She's exactly what we want. You know, a STEM-focused female who's achieved everything, who reflects the entire nation of Canada. This is exactly who we want. She turns out has some failings, like we all do. Like, God.

Corey 15:39

Go ahead, Corey. No, I was just going to say, she speaks like a trillion languages. She seems like a perfect choice on paper. But we are finding that those

Corey 15:48

those were different roles. And when you get put in the public spotlight like this, and it's a good reminder that very successful people in other walks of life often do not innately intuit the rules of politics,

Corey 16:00

You have to all of a sudden spend no money, how you have to essentially almost take like a vow of poverty is too strong. But you know what I'm saying? Like, you can't be showy about anything that you're doing. You're expected to act in a certain way, you're expected to fade into the background and let other conversations occur. That's tough. That's tough for people to do late in their career. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yeah. And especially when it's perhaps their final chapter, and they've been chosen for the symbol and everything they've represented as the layers of their identities that they've constructed in their previous chapters of their life. Carter, I want to go to you on this, because we talked about, okay, what the government should do. Interesting tension between you and Corey as to what that looks like. What should our friends in the opposition do? If you're the conservatives or the NDP, is there any juice in this story? Is it the angle that Corey mentioned around a prime minister that can't reign a governor general in? Is it about the liberal HR and vetting process, just throwing a couple of things out there? Is there any hay to be made? I mean, listen, let's be clear, and we'll talk about this shortly. our friends in the Conservative Party have been very good at expanding the scope on things, everything, throwing everything against the wall. But with that being said, is there anything special or unique about this story that you may want to lean in and get the government to start talking about?

Carter 17:07

I mean, I think it depends in part who does it. I certainly wouldn't want Skippy going after her. I mean, I think that that would look really horrific. But I think there's probably probably a theme here that is that is doable and the theme is um the liberals and their appointees waste money but i'd be wanting to find you know if you're going to use this this has to be the single drop jumping off point this can't be the whole end game you've

Carter 17:34

you've got to now go find 26 other appointees who've spent uh five thousand dollars or thirteen dollars on a on a glass of orange orange juice. Um, that's, and I think frankly, the smaller the expenditure, um, the way better this goes. I mean, Bev Oda is still remembered. I think it was a $13 glass of orange juice.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Um, 13 or 16. Yeah.

Carter 17:54

I mean, it was less than 20 bucks and she's still remembered for that. And

Carter 17:59

those types of numbers are money in the bank, right? So if you're going to do it,

Carter 18:05

you know, it's gotta be the jumping off point. It can't be the end game.

Carter 18:08

Um, so get those researchers going. And I wouldn't be surprised if there was some

Carter 18:12

some conservative researchers just looking at every expenditure report for the governor general and every other office that's ever been appointed by the liberals. And I'm sure they'll find all kinds of fun stuff.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Corey Carter's strategy is see if you can tie her to the liberals, see if there's a pattern of spending that you can kind of expand the scope on. What do you think of that?

Corey 18:35

that's that's reasonable but i think it's simpler it's just another example of trudeau's lack of judgment uh he surrounds himself with with people who would act in this fashion the tories won't want to attack the office so they're going to be a bit careful about that they're they're tory that's what we call them we call them we call the conservatives tories because they you know they're tied to that kind of whole british approach and the ndp shouldn't

Corey 18:57

shouldn't attack the office nobody cares it would be such a distraction for them i think it would be a real mistake if if they start complaining about the position of the Governor General, knowing that it's just, it's impossible to get rid of.

Corey 19:08

It's, you know, but I'll say beyond any of that,

Corey 19:12

for the same reason that Stephen said, hey, if I'm the Liberals, maybe I don't mind talking about this. If I'm the opposition, maybe I don't want to talk about this. Maybe I want to stay focused on we, which is actually looking more likely to damage the Liberals and Justin Trudeau in particular.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Stephen Carter, you get a phone call. It's Julie Payette on the other side of that phone call. She says, Stephen, I found another $250,000. I think I'm able to spend this money freely on a consultant to help me with my current situation.

Carter 19:42

Let's be clear, that type of money is always welcomed.

Carter 19:46

especially if it can be sole sourced. If it can be sole sourced, that's money in my bank account.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

And she says to you, Stephen, let's forget about the issue that this sole source contract would actually cause me. But let's imagine no one found out about this. I need to hire you to help me save my job. What are you advising her, Mr. Stephen Carter?

Carter 20:05

Well, I think that she's a brilliant interviewer. I'd get her out in front of people. She is one of the more luminary Canadians that we have in Canada. I mean, she's done things that no one else has done. And I'd have her doing things like commenting on SpaceX sex and jumping in on, on the world, uh, the world stage of, of what's going on, uh, you know, in terms of development and science. I mean, this is a time for scientists to shine. Uh, we see that with COVID, we see that with the chief medical officers, we're seeing that, um, around

Carter 20:42

around the world. So stand up and be heard. Um, I would, I would be jumping in there and saying, uh,

Carter 20:48

uh, you are not not being seen and therefore other people can tell your story and then when they ask you the question you

Carter 20:54

know what about oh you know i'm sorry madam governor general i i how

Carter 20:58

how am i supposed to

Carter 21:00

uh i've got you here sitting in front of me i can't not ask this question and they do it all apologetically um you quickly backhand that sucker right to the back of the far court and off you go you're golden you're

Carter 21:12

you're like it's just it's a simple answer right well you know i wanted to make sure that i was safe my family was safe that everything was going to you know um

Carter 21:19

um work and and be good for for my family or

Carter 21:24

or whatever the hell the answer is it doesn't even matter it just matters that you're saying it and

Carter 21:27

and that right so that would be fine so

SPEAKER_00 21:30

so turtling away is not the strategy carter you suggest she's out there hey yeah

Carter 21:34

yeah i mean she's been turtled for three weeks how's that going for her right

Carter 21:38

right you know all they're going to do is keep digging up stuff um i'm sure she's bought something she shouldn't have bought you know you know put a expense report in for something um

Carter 21:48

so get out in front remind people that you're likable remind people that you are a you know a woman to admire i mean and she is this isn't a make-believe you know kind of a positioning for her she is a woman that we should look at and go this is a canadian that we should all uh try and be more like and if she gets out and tells stories and tells her story like she doesn't have to go out and do a bio tour or anything like that she just needs to remind us hey i was once an astronaut isn't that cool yeah

Carter 22:17

yeah that is cool cory

SPEAKER_00 22:20

cory you get the exact same phone call uh right after steven she's like i don't know what i think of steven uh she offers you the same money but of course you say no no i will do this for free as a service to my country and unlike steven i haven't i haven't thrown away all my money on virtual fans for a podcast uh so she asks you what are you doing what advice are you giving her is it in line with what steven's told her is it something different? I'd say take all of Stephen's advice

Corey 22:43

advice and do the exact opposite. It was bad advice that you got.

Corey 22:49

was advice that you give a politician trying to go on a bit of a redemption trail. It is not advice that you give a governor general who should bleed into the background. And I hear he made the comment. Yeah, I know. I mean, how is going to the mattresses worked for you so far? How has it been? Or sorry, not the mattresses just disappearing, turtling here. Because, Because, you know, if it was going to work, it was going to work. But the problem is there was more stuff and more stuff came out. So the actual strategy here, the strategy that sensible strategists would provide, not hacks like Stephen Carter, is take

Corey 23:21

take out the trash and then disappear. Yeah, staff abuse, spending money freely. Is there anything else? Because I'll tell you something. If there's anything else and you don't tell me right now, you are going to probably have to end up resigning or being replaced. So just unload it all right now. Now, take

Corey 23:37

take it, drop it all out there, and then disappear. It's the summer, and just hope everybody forgets that there's such a position as governor general yet again.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

That's the best she can

Corey 23:47

can do, Corey, hey?

Corey 23:49

It's the smart thing to do. Listen, there's going to be – remember that scene in Pulp Fiction where he's the boxer? I

SPEAKER_00 23:57

I thought you were going to say Dave, the movie Dave. Yeah, the movie Dave. No, Pulp

Corey 24:01

Pulp Fiction, Bruce Willis' character, the boxer. there he's talking to marcellus he says you know that that pain that's pride and like pride is going to set you on the wrong path here she wants to go and defend herself she wants to do the stephen carter thing that's going to be very appealing if you're her and you hear a strategist pitching that that is the wrong strategy that's going to get you embroiled in a bigger mess than you're in and it's time just to shut up and disappear but you can only do that if there's nothing else coming carter any retort well

Carter 24:31

i mean it's just it's fascinating that you know So one of us is right and one of us is wrong. And I think that everybody knows who was who was right. I mean, it just seems like, you know, turtling only serves the government. She's not beholden to the government. She doesn't report to Justin Trudeau. She should get out, tell her story, get herself cleaned up from this and then resume. I'm assuming a job that she wants being the governor general. It's not a bad gig. She should totally enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

As the head of state on this podcast, I'm going to move it on to our next segment. Our next segment, we did nothing wrong. Stephen Carter, I'm going to start with you. This is, of course, the story of Katie Telford and her husband, Rob Silver. So recently it was revealed that the commercial rent program that was being offered by the government as part of the pandemic relief was outsourced to a company that current liberal chief of staff or PMO chief of staff, Katie Telford's husband, Rob Silver, works at. the media or at least a couple of outlets, specifically the National Post and the Globe and Mail, had a little bit of a hullabaloo about this. Stephen, explain to us what's going on here. What do you think is happening? Because it seems to be that outside of a few outlets, and you can correct me if I'm wrong or if you disagree, that most people are saying there's nothing wrong here. She put out the disclosures that she needed to as the Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister voluntarily. They had a Chinese wall between any decisions made regarding this this company. It seemed like she took all the necessary precautions, but give us your assessment of this current situation.

Carter 26:04

Well, this is the media being the absolute worst. This is the media trying to find another example of

Carter 26:09

of the We Scandal so that they can jump all over it because it got them such high ratings and so many click-throughs and so many eyeballs on their stories. And let's be clear, the media chase eyeballs. They're not just out there to put out the news. They're there to to gather an audience, just like we're here to gather a massive audience through my subsidizing of the virtual audience.

Carter 26:33

this is our reality in a commercial news environment. They're out to find the next We Scandal. So they go and they find this thing and they think, oh, this is salacious. This is going to be a thing. They do their homework. They don't care what is actually in place. What's actually in place is an ethics commissioner advance ruling ruling, you know, a full disclosure in advance prior to anything happening. When Rob Silver took the job, Katie Telford walked her ass down to the ethics commissioner and said, this is what's happening. What do I need to do? The ethics commissioner gave her a perfect outline of what should be done. And she did it. And you know how I know this is good? Because people from the pundits, people who've worked in government from the left and the right and the center are all watching and saying this is exactly what should have been done. She walked out. She declared the potential conflict. She got the advice from the ethics commissioner. She followed that advice. The fact that this company, a recognized expert in the field, happened to win a contract when Katie Telford wasn't involved shouldn't be a story. But the media is chasing their eyeballs, their click-throughs, and they want to misrepresent the news just so that they can get another scoop. And I think it's pathetic. And it just frustrates the hell out of me. Did I do a good enough job? I want to be happy.

Carter 28:02

Corey has nothing even to add. Corey has nothing to add because I nailed it.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

I highly doubt that. And we'll find out in a second here. Corey, same fundamental question to you. Why did this become a story? Or why do you think?

Corey 28:15

I, because the media has lost the plot as badly as everybody else in the world. Steven's entirely right. You know what? Actually, I will be more charitable. This became a story because they thought they had a story. They chased it down for several days. They realized at the end they didn't, but they'd spent a lot of time on it.

Corey 28:29

And you got to account for that time with your publisher and your editor. And so there you go. And they posted it. And somebody else said, wow, that's really awesome. And they followed it too. It's not a story. I mean, this is, you could have written this entire story. It wouldn't be very interesting news, but it would have been much more honest if it just said, you know, they did everything right. They didn't just do everything right. They took a step beyond what the ethics commissioner said, I seem to recall. I believe the ethics commissioner said, well, given the nature of it, it's not likely you're going to come across it all the time. You don't need a screen for this. And they set one up anyhow. And by the way, Zane, we do not use the term Chinese wall anymore because it's fucking 2020. uh but they set up the screen and um and

Corey 29:12

and they didn't even need to do that like it was better better than pure it was better than pure and they um and

Corey 29:19

and the fact that this is written as they did something wrong is totally crazy to me yeah in

SPEAKER_00 29:24

in 2020 are white people supposed to tell racialized people about racism i don't know if that's possible no i i feel like i feel i feel

SPEAKER_00 29:33

i feel i yeah i feel triggered i feel

SPEAKER_00 29:35

feel hurt still you're gonna explain that because i don't

Carter 29:37

don't know where the genesis of it is yeah yeah

Carter 29:41

yeah you know what just because i would want to recognize it because of his white goggles that he wears here he always sees white culture it's still there buddy all

Corey 29:54

right so i would recommend neither of you use that phrase and uh and we move on with our lives you went a little bit too far there just to let you know So I guess

Carter 30:01

guess I'm just talking about the Great Wall in China.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Corey, I love your explanation. Can I go back to you for a second? Because I want to talk to you about the politics of this and the strategy, because this kind of seems like if everyone's on side with you saying this is not a story, is there anything for the PMO and the liberals right now to make out of this to try to pivot away from we is there anything that they can do to kind of showcase that? Look, another proof point as to how they're trying to expand the scope on we is there Anything you can maneuver or tightrope walk on, I hope that term's appropriate, to be able to take this story and perhaps convert it into a bit of a political win.

Corey 30:40

Well, I think the answer is exactly in your question. It's to point to it and say, this

Corey 30:46

this is it. I mean, they're out for blood. It doesn't matter if anybody's innocent. It doesn't matter what intentions are. It doesn't matter if you do everything right. right. They are going to come after you because you are associated with the prime minister or you are the prime minister or what be. And we should all look at these things with quite a jaundiced eye because it doesn't matter how pure we are. Look how honestly and well we did here meeting with the ethics commissioner up front. They're going to have a problem with it. We can do no right as evidenced by this, as evidenced with We Scandal. But the reality is we followed all of the rules. We were just trying to get money to kids, you know, in a time of a pandemic.

Corey 31:22

We were on the the side of angels and we continue to be abused by our opponents who are just out for um i

Corey 31:29

don't know blood i suppose this

Carter 31:30

this goes back to my earlier point that i made a number of times during the wheat crisis when the conservatives are out screaming that everything is a crisis everything is a uh a scandal um this totally undermines their positioning i mean skippy's out there They're calling for an inquiry into this right now. And it just totally undermines the truth and the actual value of the WE scandal. Because this is not a scandal.

Carter 31:58

Anybody who's been involved in government, anybody who's been involved as

Carter 32:02

as a staffer who's ever worked with an ethics commissioner knows this isn't a scandal. They did everything right. Right. Ergo, if you're out screaming that this is a scandal, then the other scandal loses some of its shine. And you don't want that. You want to keep everything focused on the we scandal because, you know what, there's a fire there.

Corey 32:22

Yeah, this is a reverse Chicken Little. The sky fell. And then for the next week, you ran around yelling the sky is falling when nothing is wrong. And people start saying, well, did this guy really fall back then? I'm not so sure, just given on the number of times they've claimed it now. now and and the conservatives need to know how to call their shot like this is very undisciplined opposition that you would jump on top of something like this you have a former harper chief of staff caping for telford and silver online saying like this is ridiculous and it is ridiculous like what are the rules what

Corey 32:53

what additional rules would you put in place to avoid something like this is it just like if you are in any way associated with the prime minister you can have no like you or your family you can have no life besides that part with the prime minister well then you better You better pay them more than you do. I

Corey 33:07

I mean, this is part of like I think a common theme Carter and I have come back to a few times this season of the strategists here, which is, boy, it sucks to be political staff sometimes. And they just make it worse every day with nonsense like this. And you are going to see a worsening of staff, a worsening of participants in politics if you continue to just find

Corey 33:29

find new bars of higher absurdity that they will fail to meet because they – not even because they screwed up, because they're human or anything, because you now have a new standard that is miles beyond the agreed-upon standard. standard.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Carter, you know, you're a chief of staff in government. I have this question for you specifically, which is, you see this information come through, you know, you're in the right, you're getting the support, as I mentioned to Corey, what, you know, I think we know the message, right? We've talked about what message they need to go out, how they can use this as, as perhaps a tool to illustrate that, that the media and the opposition are off base as it relates to the WE scandal. But what exact messenger are you using? What strategy or tactic are you implementing this fact right now? If you're in the PMO, or if this happened to you, what sort of mechanisms are you trying to use to get this message out that, look, this is an example of how they're just after us baselessly?

Carter 34:19

Yeah, I mean, I would use actually all the NDP and conservatives that have stepped out of the woodwork to defend me. You know, the Twitterverse is lit up with with people jumping to Katie Telford's defense. This is not their normal position. You didn't see them leap to the prime minister's defense during the Wee scandal. They are doing so because they know the consequence of not being able to get staff in the future. And that's what this is all about. This is about trying to find staff that will fulfill these roles. Like Rob Silver, when Katie became the chief of staff initially, He stepped down from his partner's role at Crestview Strategies. That should not be required. That should not be the thing, the norm for how a political staffer's spouse needs to behave in order to avoid conflict of interest. Rob gets offered what appears to be a pretty darn good gig. He takes the good gig because he's very

Carter 35:24

very qualified to have the gig. And all of a sudden, everybody's up in arms. This is not the way that it should work, and it will hurt every political party that intends to govern, period. period.

Corey 35:36

Corey? Both Stephen and I have had roles where you have to go to the ethics commissioner and disclose everything about your life. It's not a comfortable process to begin with.

Corey 35:45

Every year, they broaden it. Well, not every year, that's an exaggeration, but they consistently broaden it. So it's, you've

Corey 35:50

you've got to bring in all your spouse's financials, your kids' financials, and sure, that seems to make sense. But all of a sudden, then it's your parents' financials and your close business contacts' financials. And they're starting to look at your friends in a way that that it is broader scrutiny. And the definition of friend is very ambiguous.

Corey 36:04

And you look at it, and I can only speak for myself, Stephen, but I can tell you when I thought about taking a senior official role, I thought, do

Corey 36:14

do I want this? Like this is just – it's not just bad for you or not just burdensome for you, I should say, and it is burdensome for you. You have to divest yourself of certain investments and all of – disinvest, I suppose. But for your family, for those in your immediate orbit, it makes things difficult for them. It makes things difficult for your old business associates who now are probably not going to get contracts with the government as readily because people will say, oh, Lord, is that going to start looking like a conflict in different senses? It's tough. It's really tough. And it's not a selling point of the gig. That's for damn sure. And so I really applaud her for going to the ethics commissioner. commissioner by the way i i shouldn't applaud her for doing what's right but to go to the ethics commissioner have the ethics commissioner's advice and then say you know i actually want to go a bit further than that i applaud her for that and um and honestly to have an article still written like this and to have people still coming after you like this i mean talk about no good deed goes unpunished just

Corey 37:11

unreal to me and i you know i think i'm pretty

Corey 37:15

not the guy you can trust to defend the trudeau government but it just boils my blood it's just crazy to me that this got published. Carter,

Carter 37:24

if we start punishing people for doing what's right, they're going to start hiding what's right even more, right? They're just going to hide things. And we need to have the ability to see when people are doing wrong. That's what these laws are supposed to do. This undermines the entire system. And the conservatives need to pull their heads out of their asses, especially Pierre Polyev. It's just, just it's a terrible precedent to investigate something that was done in

Carter 37:53

in accordance with the law and correctly.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Do you think he's going to be successful, Carter, in that investigation? And I know you think he's not going to be helpful, but do you feel like it's when I say successful in getting it and perhaps getting some traction? No,

Carter 38:07

No, everybody's going to be telling him pretty soon to shut the fuck up, which is what he needs to be told. Because he is, I mean, every once in in a while he hits a base hit and he's so proud of himself he gets the first base he runs later like he's like he's he's hit a home run um but everybody's looking and saying man that was a fastball right down the middle of the plate what are you doing getting a base hit you gotta hit a home run every once in a while this is going to be pulling himself back and and it's going to actually hurt you

Carter 38:35

you know the the efforts that they were making in the last fucking uh in the we scandal and i love you guys carter my analogies i know you love yeah you're

Corey 38:43

like disregarding all moneyball all baseball advanced you know analytics for the past 20 years in your clumsy metaphor yeah

SPEAKER_00 38:51

yeah as a man who who purports to go outside a lot that

SPEAKER_00 38:54

that was a pretty shit analogy

SPEAKER_00 38:58

i'm sorry i didn't mean to take a shit on you you know

Carter 38:59

know i said i like it i stood up for you i

Carter 39:02

i jumped in on the china okay whatever you see on my question my questionably

SPEAKER_00 39:08

questionably uh uh racist uh use of a term. Okay, let's move it on to our next segment, hateration and holleration. Guys, I want to talk about two things related to the public opinion. And the first one is with

SPEAKER_00 39:22

with our public health officials across the country, what we're starting to see, and I think we can start pointing with a conversation here in Alberta with Dr. Dina Hinshaw, you know, is someone who was celebrated during the pandemic in the months of March, April, leading into May, as being the sage advice, the leader of ensuring Alberta's case count was low, that our hospitalization numbers were, you know, kept at bay, you know, almost having the Premier step aside and ensure that she was the singular voice. And we saw that obviously in BC as well with Dr. Bonnie Hendry. What I think we're seeing now in the summer months is a bit of public opinion turning as As the government has, in both of those provinces, started to make their decisions on things like school reopenings and what time to trigger what phases of the overall reopenings in each province, we're starting to see perhaps a little bit more mixed response to their leadership. So, Corey, I wanted to start with you. Is this any surprise to you? What do you kind of make of this from heralded as public opinion, you know, at the top of their game to now perhaps slipping a bit? it uh a does this surprise you and b what do you kind of credit it to so to speak yeah

Corey 40:36

yeah i don't know if it surprises me it's it's the arc everybody goes on in public administration you're there until you you accrue enemies right as time goes on as you make a decision um that

Corey 40:48

that first decision may be broadly popular let's say it's 80 popular now you've got 20 against you your next decision let's say that it's 75 popular now you've got 40 of the population against you you just you build up enemies you don't build up supporters and and it's very tough to break out of that mold there it's kind of that to use my second movie reference of the night here you die a hero or you live long enough to become the villain that's that's what happens when you're in the public spotlight is

SPEAKER_00 41:13

is that from dave

Corey 41:15

yeah that's from dave that's

Corey 41:21

but here's the thing these

Corey 41:24

public health officials were decreeing big bold actions showy set pieces, right? They were patent. They were out there demanding that we make sacrifices and do the right thing. But those big, bold actions need to be followed up with short strokes. And those short strokes are, they're

Corey 41:41

they're difficult and they're contentious and they are so complex. And I'll tell you, as somebody who's on like

Corey 41:48

like a crisis management team within my own employer, it's like you sit there and you think you've got the answer and then somebody brings up something something that is so like such a crazy wrench that you never even thought of that gets thrown at you. And you're like, okay, well, we better do this instead then, or this or that. And you've got to water down your, even your bold actions on that previously existed to deal with reality as it is. It's always messy in reality and people don't like messy. And the minute it's messy, they get mad. They turn against you. We live in a world with no nuance anymore. And I pity these public health experts who now have to deal with the public turning against Because they haven't done anything except their job.

Corey 42:26

But you do your job long enough and you're going to have too many enemies. And that's just the way it goes. Carter,

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Carter, do you agree with Corey's diagnosis that this is just a, I shouldn't say just a, but partially a factor of time and building up enemies as you go forward and continue to make these tough decisions?

Carter 42:42

I mean, I think that the doctors were giving us advice that we wanted to hear. I mean, there was a great big, evil, scary thing out there. And these doctors were being presented to us as the people who could protect us. And thankfully, they have. They've protected a large number of us. But now that protection that we sought, we're

Carter 43:03

we're seeing something different now.

Carter 43:05

And that something different is that they're sending our kids back to school.

Carter 43:10

And, you know, Dr. Tam is talking about physical

Carter 43:12

physical distancing and mask wearing for two to three years, even with a vaccine. And

Carter 43:16

And all of a sudden, I'm getting some messaging that I don't like.

Carter 43:20

And I being the very large, I'm

Carter 43:24

I'm going to say center, center left group that

Carter 43:27

were already with them, right? Like they were like, we follow public health regulations. We're on side. We are your people. But this center left group

Carter 43:37

group is now saying, hang on a second here. What you're telling me is really hard to hear.

Carter 43:44

And I was prepared to stay in my house for a month, two. got a little bit got a little bit up there got a little bit too much when you opened up I saw everybody go crazy I knew this was going to be a problem and now you're telling me that

Carter 43:57

that we're going to put kids back in school and it's my kid and this is fundamentally changing things because now you're no longer on the side of protecting me and my family you're

Carter 44:08

you're now on the side of the greater good because let's be honest sending kids back to school is part of our societal societal greater good, right? But how do you do that in such a fashion that

Carter 44:21

that you don't put these kids at risk? I

Carter 44:23

I mean, the balancing act of this there, you know, to Corey's point, this is not an easy decision. There are many, many factors. Keeping kids out of school indefinitely is not a solution. But

Carter 44:35

we're not seeing the direction that we want to see. We're not seeing the safety that we want to see put in place. And that blending

Carter 44:42

blending also of the politics of Doug Ford, the politics of Jason Kenney, the politics of every provincial government that's trying to balance off the finances of this with the reality of getting kids back to school. None of this is balancing. And the public health officials are probably the least equipped to deal with this public outrage and figure out how to deal with it. They're not politicians. They're public health officials. And they're struggling a bit.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Corey, what do you make of this, this theory by Carter that, you know, at the start of this, people saw these public health officials as part of their political tribe. They're like, Oh, yeah, I agree with them. So they're part of my tribe. And now that time has gone gone by, they're they're almost being like, well, you're supposed to say what we believe, like, we're in this together. And now you're saying something different. It's almost like that sort of mentality where they can't reconcile the fact that this is their own person and going with their own trajectory and own level of data that they're making their decisions and saying their things with. What do you kind of make of that?

Corey 45:43

Well, I think that's particularly true of political observers that are hyper-engaged in politics who are really just all about sports team this day. And they see a public servant. Can I tell you something? Public servants don't spend their lives determining whether they're a conservative or a liberal. They just don't, or a New Democrat. Most people in the world don't, but the deeply politically engaged do, And they can't help but see everything through that lens. And it's, you

Corey 46:07

you know, the day you support what my side is saying, that's great. You're clearly on my side. And that's awesome. And you're there to protect us against the big bad premier.

Corey 46:15

And the minute they're making a decision the other way, which is based on all sorts of considerations, they all of a sudden do see a bit of betrayal there. And that's just not fair to the public servant who is not there to align perfectly to your ideology. Now, look, I'm a parent and I'm deeply conflicted about in Alberta whether, you know, schools should be opening in September the way they are with all of those things out. I do agree with Stephen. Keeping kids out is not a great

Corey 46:39

great solution. I already worry about how much, you know, time has been lost in school. But it's tough because we also we don't live in a bubble-wrapped world. And I think that the problem is, in this world with no nuance, with everything in absolutes, it's any death is too many deaths. And yeah, these are kids. And I think the appropriate thing to say is, yes, any death is too many deaths. But we

Corey 47:04

we don't have a stoplight at every intersection. We don't have speed limits of 20 kilometers an hour. We don't force everybody to go around with a bodyguard in case they're going to get mugged. All of these things obviously would make us safer, but we

Corey 47:18

we accept a certain amount of risk living in the world. And when a public health official crafts a policy that reflects that reality, people lose their goddamn minds. And I really feel sorry for those public health officials because they're not trying to get in a political fight. They are just trying to balance off competing interests in a way that protects health with

Corey 47:37

with the intentionality and the degree of care that we do in everything else in life, right?

Corey 47:43

right? There's nothing particularly special about COVID except for the fact we're reacting to it in this dramatic fashion. Carter?

Carter 47:50

Listening to Corey, what he's talking about is balance and nuance. And the political system is not designed to reflect balance and nuance. You know, so political Twitter, when we look at everything through a political lens and political, you

Carter 48:05

you know, like our political ideological instinct is to see things in these black

Carter 48:13

black and white models. And unfortunately for these public health officials, this

Carter 48:18

this is political. The whole thing is political. It never wasn't political. political it just happened to be um smaller

Carter 48:26

smaller groups of outrage and now we're seeing bigger groups of outrage because the people who are at risk the people who are facing this down as a challenge are now our children and there's just no way there's just no way that the passions aren't going to be inflamed when you're looking at children um so i i'm a bit lost

Carter 48:44

lost on how they can do it better but i just know that i think that the politicians will be wise

Carter 48:50

wise to pay attention to of the audience as they start screaming about what it is that they want.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Corey, I want to pick up on what Carter just said around the politicians, right? Because while these public health officials from across the country and in our various provinces might not themselves be looking at every decision through a political lens, our politicians are certainly using some of them as political chess pieces, so to speak, right, to ensure that they're cover for certain policies that they want to implement, that they are, you know, on side. How do you kind of see that dynamic playing out? And is there any sort of risk or downside risk for whether that's Jason Kenney here in Alberta or Premier Horgan in BC, you know, or even at the federal level, Dr. Theresa Tam, where politicians are injecting their ideology and ensuring, you know, this jives, right? And it almost starts forcing public health officials to go in a certain way, but kinda?

Corey 49:44

Yeah, I mean, as it ever was, right? Politicians use experts for political cover all of the time right whether it is academics whether it is interest groups who come forward and say you know this is something we'd like to do and and it's the same story it's just playing out on a much bigger stage something that's much more dramatic right now and um unfortunately um

Corey 50:09

that that really sort of changes people's views of it just because the the stakes are so much higher. And look, if you are a politician, you've got to be very careful because as I mentioned, sometimes academics get used regularly. Sometimes interest groups get used regularly. What you find is if they're used too regularly and they too consistently back up the party, they are seen to continue the conversation we had in the last round here as

Corey 50:32

as just associated with that party, associated with that tribe, and they lose any kind of of persuasive power they have to the other side. And so if you overuse your health official in that fashion, the

Corey 50:44

the other side, the quote unquote other side, the opposition is going to start tuning them out. And that's a challenge. So if you're a public health official, you're kind of caught in the middle. As the premier, you want to be able to point to the public health official and say, we're doing it for these reasons. If you are the public health official, you want to make sure the public is listening to you. And if you are the public, you want to make sure you're getting the straight goods from a health official who's not being kind of corrupted by politics. And that's a deeply uncomfortable place for all of the parties to be in because everybody's got to reassess everybody on a very consistent basis. And I think

Corey 51:15

think we're just more acutely aware of it now. But this is the opera that we're always in.

Corey 51:21

And so I hope that if there's a takeaway people can have here, it's the same sort of looking at the validator, in this case the health official, and thinking about where

Corey 51:31

where they may be giving or compromising and why and how and whatnot. not that conversation is happening with all the validators you see that conversation is happening with everybody the government trumpets out here so so you know let's use it as a learning experience i guess but uh politicians aren't doing anything except which comes natural to them they're like the scorpion on the back of a frog yeah that's a good story all that metaphor is

SPEAKER_00 51:55

carter carter within the confines of this segment i want to talk about another item that's raised here in Alberta about our tribal discourse. And this was recently a news story run by City TV here in Alberta around the Fuck You Jason Kenney mug. So I don't know if you heard about this. But this was a story that was about this mug that was produced, according to the individual who made it, you know, local artisan, she said, you know, it's supposed to be tongue in cheek. And City TV covered it as a story regarding the eroding political discourse had a political science Prof talk about how this, this story is a symbol of it. Twitter and the political zeitgeist kind of took, you know, took some issue with this simply because this is not the first time our political discourse has gone here, especially in Alberta, where we've seen, you know, the same attacks, if not more vulgar against Justin Trudeau against Rachel Notley in years past. So Carter, what do you make of this story as it relates to our conversation of, of our political tribalism them right now well

Carter 52:53

well i i could not believe it and there was two things i couldn't believe number one i couldn't believe that the uh the city tv decided to pick this up as a news story um you know if every truck that had fuck you rachel notley or fuck you justin trudeau on the back of it um hang trudeau for treason i mean we've got local celebrities who tweet that um and yet you know They're still able to host their parties at the lake because everybody thinks that they're God's gift to whatever.

Carter 53:26

This has been an ongoing issue in Alberta for as long as I've been in Alberta, and I've been in Alberta my entire life. We hated Papa Trudeau. Now we hate this Trudeau, and we believe that they're the authors of our own stupidity and our own demise. so we say you know the the vitriol directed at uh rachel notley who let's be clear faced the most death threats of any premier in alberta history um she

Carter 53:58

she faced all of this that was a news story fuck you jason kenney on a on a on a coffee mug this is not a news story and that the the political science professor who jumped in on this i mean at some point you know you don't need to be on city tv okay the the 48 people watching city tv aren't gonna care that you i mean do you get paid is this part of your tenure do you need to get yourself in front of a television camera in order to satisfy your bosses this is not the story this was a crappy story don't

Carter 54:30

don't jump on it you don't have to take the bait every time done

Corey 54:35

cory cory what do you think so

Corey 54:37

so uh shots fired against city tv there um we are now fighting a forefront war

SPEAKER_00 54:42

war just to let you

Corey 54:42

you yeah clearly okay

Corey 54:44

look i i agree that it's a bit ridiculous that this is the record scratch moment like the music just stopped and you're like why i can't believe it holy crap the the coarsening of this discourse has just happened now now that jason kenny is has got a mug that says fuck you kenny because you're i mean look google truck fuck trudeau and see how many different etsy shops come up willing to sell you some version of that right it's because there's a market for it man but look um i actually think that the what about ism that was thrown about by everybody up to and including carter here of look it was so much worse elsewhere doesn't negate the core point which is there has been a real like the political discourse is awful right now it's terrible the fact that we think saying fuck you insert name of politician we don't like um on any front is appropriate i I think, is really sad. It's really pretty sad. And we've

Corey 55:37

we've got to do better. Come

Corey 55:39

on. I'm not defending it as

Carter 55:39

as appropriate. If it's finally a moment – listen.

Corey 55:42

If this is finally a moment where conservatives can see, holy crap, things have gotten bad, good. But let's not then take it as an opportunity for the left to say, no, fuck you. I mean it was way worse for the other guys, right? That to me is pointless and it's not very good or helpful.

Carter 55:56

helpful. First of all, I think you missed my – Let's just actually all

Corey 55:57

all agree and take the moment to say this

Corey 56:01

is pretty shit political discourse. It adds nothing to the conversation. This is just – this is not even – like this wouldn't even pass as particularly clever yelling at an arena at the opposing team. Just stop. Come on. Like put together an actual political thought. You're not as clever as you think. I get that you think it's kind of fun, kind of cute. It's not. You're just sort of turning off people in the middle. Let's just park the fuck you blanks for a bit. So your cogent

Carter 56:27

cogent analysis is to make fun of the people who have resorted to this rather than the media, rather than the political scientist. The media picks this up and decides to run with this story. And you've come up with, well, she shouldn't have said it. Like, that's the analysis. We get to say whatever we want to say. We get to say whatever we want to say. The media shouldn't be picking this up and saying, look at how this has really brought down the political discourse at a time when, you know, death threats are the norm. I mean, go and take a look at Derek Sloan's frickin' Facebook page. This is a joke. But

Corey 57:04

Carter, is that news? It's just whataboutism. It's not whataboutism.

Corey 57:08

It is whataboutism. You're pointing to something else and saying, well, that's just as bad or worse. That's the definition of whataboutism. It's not fucking good. Good. Stop. We all need to stop arguing like this. We do. And look, people I really like, people I really respect, people I'm married to would probably really enjoy that coffee mug. But the fact is, it doesn't add anything to the political discourse. And I look forward to having to apologize to my wife at the start of next episode, by the way.

Corey 57:33

But I don't think we need to do this. I don't think we need to say fuck you blank to anybody. I just don't think that adds

Carter 57:38

adds anything. you're still mad about the three years of fucking cory hogan i'm sorry okay i

Carter 57:44

i i'm sorry there

Corey 57:46

there that could be really misinterpreted i'm done uh

SPEAKER_00 57:52

let's move it on to our fight i didn't even have to do anything in that that last part that's great let's move on to our final segment are over under our lightning rod guys are you ready i'm

SPEAKER_00 58:01

i'm still angry no i don't think so yeah clearly the first time you are not ready, which means maybe it'll be the first time you actually give me numbers and we can move on. Corey, I'm going to you first on a scale of one to 10. What do you make of the federal government imposing a $3.6 billion tariff for Trump's move against Canada on aluminium, as Carter has told me, I have to say. One to 10. What do you think of Canada's retaliatory policy move?

Corey 58:27

mean, I think A, they had to do it. And B, There

Corey 58:30

is now sort of a playbook for when Trump does something like this and applies this tariff, which will just hurt American producers. They don't produce enough aluminum, so they need to import, and we are the closest country, so it makes a bit of sense there. So you know what? I give it – what was the scale on, Zane? It's a 1 to 10.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

a 1 to 10.

Corey 58:49

10. Oh, I give it an A+. I give it an A+. I think that it definitely deserves an A+. And look, I mean, it's just

Corey 58:57

just here we go again. And we're going to get more of this as we get deeper into election season. Trump is just flailing at this point. He's just doing all sorts of crazy shit. Carter,

SPEAKER_00 59:05

Carter, what do you think of our federal government's response, 1 to 10? Please, please be on the scale. It's

Carter 59:09

It's totally satisfactory. I mean, I think that it's

Carter 59:11

it's not going to change anything. And I think that the government is now banking on this being a short-term problem. You know, you're only going to have to implement these tariffs for about another four months, and then everything was going to shift back to something vaguely resembling normalcy. I think they're going to be disappointed. But, you know, nonetheless, here we are. The world is a crazy place. And, you know, we're throwing around billions of dollars with the tariffs, which how is this going to help anybody's economy at a time when everybody

Carter 59:41

everybody in the whole world needs help with their economy?

SPEAKER_00 59:45

Carter, back to you. Over, under, on six for the federal government. Over, under, on six for the federal government. Alberta and Ottawa deciding to reduce oil sands environmental monitoring due to the pandemic. What do you what do you kind of make for for what the impact might be on the feds particularly over under on six?

Carter 1:00:01

I mean, way under. I mean, I was really quite baffled by this. I mean, I understand what Jason Kenney's pulling at. Jason Kenney thinks that his economic recovery and the economic recovery of Alberta hinges upon oil and gas regaining their previous glory, which, you know, as

Carter 1:00:17

as I said to someone the other day, it's betting everything and putting it all on black at the roulette wheel. I mean, this is just crazy. What does Trudeau get out of this? You know, he appeals to a large subset of the population that wants stronger environmental protections, not weaker environmental protections. He doesn't win any votes in Alberta by doing this. There are no votes to be had for him in Alberta. So what the hell is he doing? Strengthen those environmental protections. Do not weaken them. I don't give a shit if COVID's, you know, making it difficult. It's time to do the right thing.

Carter 1:00:55

And this is not the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

Corey, over on round six.

Corey 1:01:01

Yeah, I mean, I agree. The thing that the federal government perhaps is concerned about is exactly what Jason Kenney is concerned about. Oil and gas is a huge part of the Canadian economy, and they might be worried about how they can sweeten the pot in that sense and what can they throw to Alberta. But if you're going to do that, reducing environmental protections doesn't – like that doesn't create jobs. That maybe increases your dividend or the amount of net income that's available to you if you're profitable as a company. But maybe a smarter path here would have been in all of this COVID spending to say, yeah, we will provide money

Corey 1:01:36

money for additional environmental protections at this point. Exactly. That will put people to work, that will protect our environment. I mean, that to me seems like it would have been a better play. And so I don't know. I don't get it. I think it was short-sighted, and it's just going to lose him support with people who he needs to support. And also, with so many big fights on oil and gas coming up,

Corey 1:01:56

Justin Trudeau only has so many chips that he can spend on oil and gas benefits, shall we say. And I don't think this was a particularly smart placement of those chips.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Corey, back to you on this one. Are you in or out? Are you in or out on the comms rollout for the new COVID-19 app, the federal COVID-19 app? If you recall, Alberta, when they rolled out their provincial app, had a ton of problems, ton of issues. But are you in or out for what you've seen thus far for how the feds have rolled out the COVID app? As someone who's kind of led comms for a government, kind of wanted to get your assessment first. Yeah,

Corey 1:02:27

Yeah, no, I'm in. I think whenever you roll out anything technical like this, you risk the Obamacare disaster, right? And the media is conditioned to look for stories of this doesn't work on old platforms. Oh, somebody found like they were sent a code by mistake, anything like that. There's always going to be something. And so aiming for like a perfect, no noise launch is not possible. And when you consider that, I think they did a really great job. And obviously, I think it was good enough that I myself downloaded it, but in a province that it doesn't even work yet. Yeah.

Corey 1:03:02

but but I think the proof is in the pudding and the fact that even Alberta, who who to Alberta's great credit, was one of the first places to launch an app has said, OK, we're just wrapping up our app. We're going with the federal one after a bit of pouting. Right. After a bit of why don't you help me first has gone to the federal app just really says the federal app is the place to be. And and if your critics in Alberta can get on board with it, I think that tells you you've got a pretty clean launch. launch

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

carter in around on the app so far in terms of its launch and rollout i

Carter 1:03:30

i mean on the app i was disappointed by the coverage i mean the guy with the iphone that's 26 years old i mean like you

Carter 1:03:36

you know like it's

Carter 1:03:37

it's just it's frustrating that the media go and find the story up i really wanted to download it and i couldn't because my app you know my iphone's operating on an os3 like come on ios3 or whatever like these

Carter 1:03:50

these aren't the stories the fact is that most people uh who want to be be able to download this will it's still going to miss a lot of people but that's not the point the point is we got to get as good at this as we possibly can and this was a big step forward the federal government did a good job and uh alberta

Carter 1:04:07

alberta after its initial whining and complaining jumping on board um was was pretty uh pretty smart to do so cory

SPEAKER_00 1:04:16

cory assigned this a letter grade the liberals have uh finally turned over thousands of pages on the we decision uh so the the decision-making process, they finally turned over the thousands of pages as part of a data dump. What do you make? Give it a letter grade.

Corey 1:04:31

I do not give it a pass. And the reason I don't is that you're setting a precedent here, that you're going to drop that kind of information whenever there's a public clamor for it. So it's not so much the particular moment. I suspect that for the moment, they believe these documents are helpful, but I always worry about the precedent for things like this. And you're setting yourself up future problems if you're are making data that accessible whenever an issue of this nature comes up so listen i mean as a member of the public great i love transparency like that as as a strategist i would say well you better be prepared to live with that forever now uh because that's the risk and and that can have all sorts of consequences to cabinet deliberations if people worry that those

Corey 1:05:12

those kinds of documents could be made public because they are constructed under the assumption that they They will not be made public, and so the advice is more candid and more direct. There could be consequences to that that, as Canadians, we do not necessarily want.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:27

give it a letter grade.

Carter 1:05:29

I mean, I think that it's – I think I agree with Corey. I think that it's probably, you know, a

Carter 1:05:37

a letter grade, a C+. You know, it was something that –

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

What are you doing? What are you – I'm shocked. This is shocking.

Carter 1:05:47

always answer the questions you ask.

Carter 1:05:52

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:54

your thought. Finish your thought. Go ahead.

Carter 1:05:57

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's... We broke Steven. I mean, at one point I was musing, wouldn't it be great if we could release every document ever in government and just flood people and just kind of like everything

Carter 1:06:09

everything that we ever do and

Carter 1:06:11

and then have the journalists have to sift through it all. I thought it would be amusing. But you can't because you can't make everything public. It just doesn't work that way because people need to be able to express views contrary to that of the ultimate decision. And that does not make for a cohesive government. So I don't know. It's fine. They're trying to dig themselves out of this particular problem. It's not going to help, I don't think. So I'm not a big fan of the decision.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:44

Let's go to our final question, a listener question, of course, brought to us by username An Ottawa Listener. That's their username. They gave us, of course, five stars, and that is what renders me to then ask said question. Here's part of the review. Okay. Hey, guys. I'm caught up on your episodes and glad to see that you're back. Though you're fabulous enough, you do not need to diss Canada Land or the Boys in Short Pants, so giving us some unsolicited advice, which we will not be taking. Also, I see nothing about City TV, which we started a war with today. Now for the question. Corey, I want to go to you first for obvious reasons, because you will get this in a second. Now for my question. My son-in-law, a former Alberta resident, thinks that the Alberta NDP should try to merge with the Alberta Liberals, and I personally feel that this is something that Rachel should not waste her efforts on. Who is right? Corey.

Corey 1:07:39

Oh, I think Rachel is correct. There's nothing to merge with. You've got you've got David Kahn and a couple of just

Corey 1:07:47

just diehards holding on to the dream that was a party nobody needed to begin with. Right. I mean, the problem the Alberta Liberal Party had

Corey 1:07:54

had from the 90s on is

Corey 1:07:56

is that if if all of a sudden we were all struck totally ignorant of politics and we were creating political parties again for the first time, nobody would feel the need to create an Alberta Liberal Party. It didn't actually exist for any purpose. And over time, the political outcomes reflected that stark reality. And so we got to a point where David Kahn, who's the leader of the Alberta Liberal Party, in the last provincial election came in fourth in

Corey 1:08:24

in the writing he was writing. pretty remarkable to come in fourth in the right which by the way was a held liberal seat the election before it was uh it was the only liberal seat the election before and then the leader of the liberals came in fourth in that riding so like there's nothing to merge with and you know the alberta party at least i would say has mind share people think about it organizers muse about what a brilliant idea that would be they seem to feel that there's some space in the middle you know you could actually argue there's a reason for that party to exist i wouldn't necessarily but But people could. And,

Corey 1:08:59

you know, people exert a lot of time with

Corey 1:09:02

with the Alberta Party and its various iterations.

Corey 1:09:06

People don't exert a lot of time with the Liberal Party. You're not leaving anything behind by not having the Liberal Party. They show up in polls in between elections by people confused, thinking that it's the federal liberals you're talking about. But how many votes did they get last time? I don't know. I think that between the three of us, we could count them on all of our hands. There's nothing to merge with. 18,546.

Corey 1:09:27

18,546 in a province of 4.3

Carter 1:09:30

.3 million. The New Democrats got 619,147. If you added them together, it's like...

SPEAKER_00 1:09:37

It's a margin of error. It's

Carter 1:09:38

It's a 1% change. It's just lunacy.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

Is that your contribution to the answer, Carter? Do you have anything to say? I have nothing else to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:50

We will leave it there. Thank you, Ottawa Lister, for your five-star review and your question. Of course, leave us more five-star reviews. we'll read more questions and we'll leave it right there and of course our new offer Stephen Carter is offering $10 for virtual fans and we'll leave it right there with episode 815 of The Strategist my name is Zane Velji with me as always Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan and we'll see you next time

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