Episode 805: 21 Seconds of Silence from Stephen Carter

SPEAKER_02 0:03

This is a strategist episode 805. My name is Zain Velji with me as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan. Guys, what's going on?

Corey 0:11

Well, we're here one day after Stephen's birthday to celebrate everything wrong in the world.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Milestone birthday and how appropriate that we celebrate everything that's wrong after Stephen's birth.

Corey 0:24

don't know if it's a milestone. Is 51 a milestone?

Carter 0:28

it's a deterioration like nothing ever gets better i think it's a 50

SPEAKER_02 0:32

50 is not a milestone 50 is like top of the peak and then it's just they're just sliding down yeah

Carter 0:37

yeah there's a point in in your birthdays where you realize there is no way that you're getting closer to half you're moving away from half and

Carter 0:44

and i am definitely in the moving away from

SPEAKER_02 0:47

from half very generous you think half you're going to live till 100 i mean we can discuss that later um very generous on on your part i

SPEAKER_02 0:54

i mean yeah well we'll

Carter 0:54

we'll see how it goes right now heather has me last into about 64

Carter 0:59

and i think that's when she's going to choke the life out of me okay

SPEAKER_02 1:02

i mean these many of us don't get to plan it or be part of the plan and uh it's nice that you do uh of how you want to go cory any any news from your neck of the woods well

Corey 1:12

well it's my daughter's birthday today and also we announced this week that we're doing another podcast so which one do you want to talk about zane which one do you think our listeners would be more interested in i

SPEAKER_02 1:20

i really don't care about your daughter all that much let's talk about the podcast i wish i had a joke

SPEAKER_02 1:27

but i don't i mean i'm very excited about the podcast uh

Corey 1:31

yeah we're yeah we're uh you know we're gonna talk about america to americans canadians can listen in we decided we'd give that um we'd

Corey 1:39

we'd give that concession yeah

Carter 1:41

yeah canadians are always welcome but this is for you yanks is

Carter 1:44

is that how we open at

SPEAKER_02 1:45

at court maybe we we should

Corey 1:47

should tell people what it's called it's

Corey 1:49

it's called you the people it's

Corey 1:51

it's it's like a riff you know you heard about this whole we the people thing it's like that but we're not the we yeah

Corey 1:56

so that's what we did this was focus grouped for about 12 months uh with you

Corey 2:01

you know in every single american time zone played poorly in all of them but as part of our regular disdain for our audiences we said let's do it anyways yeah

SPEAKER_02 2:09

yeah yeah i mean uh the whole vibe here is uh we don't care and and this just extends on the we don't care vibe uh of course uh we were offered sponsors and we said no we don't want any sponsors we're now of course uh regretting the fact that we said no to uh zip recruiter uh many people need jobs and we could have provided so many jobs to so many people uh but uh this podcast will not have sponsors mainly because of our uh sheer and collective laziness um but we're excited for it and there's and there's a trailer on on this strategist feed so subscribe to get that and it's going to be its own podcast so subscribe to to listen to the trailer on there and whenever

SPEAKER_02 2:48

whenever we decide what the show's about i mean we've got a rough sketch but whenever we decide what the actual show's about you'll

Corey 2:54

you'll hear the first episode basically if we have landed on it will do something about the united states it will involve us and uh rest tbd rest

SPEAKER_02 3:03

rest tbd be great that's

SPEAKER_02 3:05

that's great okay let's move it on to our first segment our our first segment, status symbols. Guys, it has been a week. The protests continue in the United States, expand into North America, Europe, even some countries in Asia. The world is now marching to the protest beat of Black Lives Matter across the world, an unbelievable sight. But what I want to hone in on today is the symbolism, and more specifically, the symbolism of two world leaders. One of them is ours, Justin Trudeau. And one of them is, of

SPEAKER_02 3:36

of course, Donald Trump. And I want to compare the symbolism that we saw this week. So with Trump, you had him effectively tear gassing civilians to get to a church to hold up a Bible weirdly. And with Trudeau, you had two moments. You had him taking the knee at the Black Lives Matter protest in Ottawa, but then also the now infamous 21 second beats before he moments of silence, so to speak, before he answered a question. So I want to kind of first compare these pieces of symbolism. So maybe, Carter, I'll start with you. Which one wins the day in the sense of its powerfulness? Which one will we be talking about in the broader scheme of both the political arc, but perhaps even the historical arc as we go forward?

Carter 4:18

If I was a betting man, I'd bet that the historical arc will remember the 21 seconds of silence overtaking the knee. And the 21 seconds of silence was a direct message towards

Carter 4:30

towards the president of the United States, which you don't see a lot of. You don't see a lot of international diplomacy done out in public where the principals are talking trash about another member of their very elite clique. It just doesn't happen. It doesn't happen at the premier's level. It doesn't generally happen at the mayoral level. And now it has happened at the world leader level and not just with Justin Trudeau. Angela Merkel did the exact same thing with essentially saying she didn't want to be seen or

Carter 5:01

or didn't want to be in the same room as Trump. There is now a

Carter 5:06

kind of backlash to Trump's

Carter 5:09

leadership, and it's really manifesting itself both through that 21-second delay as well as the G7 and how people are approaching his deranged lunacy of organizing a world leader conference in the midst of the COVID-19 crisis. places.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Corey, before I go to you, Carter, compare the two leaders for me, though. Which one had the more powerful symbolism this week? I know, you know, for the for the liberal sort of crowd globally, the Trudeau moments are going to stand out. But but give me the political goods. Which of the two do you think had the political moment that that might speak loudly?

Carter 5:44

You can never forget that Trump's base is that Bible waving American Christian who thinks that there's

Carter 5:51

there's a number of them that think that christ christ and and trump belong in something vaguely resembling the similar sentence um which baffles me uh but i do think that him going to the church and holding the the bible does speak to his base so he did speak to his base the same way that trudeau spoke to his base uh and spoke i think legions to uh to minorities around the world when he took a knee at the Black Lives Matter protest. I mean, each

Carter 6:20

each was in that moment speaking to groups. But Trump needs to be heard by his base more than anything else. He needs his base to love him in this moment because ain't no one else loving him. Ain't no one else loving him at all.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Carter, am I hearing you say that Trump's moment kind of is like more time stamped, more time boxed for the current sort of political cycle and Trudeau's might be a little bit more historic? Am I putting words in your mouth by asking that? I

Carter 6:43

think the history I think that I think

Carter 6:47

think that Trump's moment is going to be remembered for a long time because it fits his remember for a long time within his demographic, but history books will not remember it. So,

Carter 6:58

So, you know, put things in the realm of historical pieces. And I think that Trudeau's 21 seconds is more historical. And I'm seeing, you know, one of the things we've debated

SPEAKER_02 7:09

is whether we should have a video version of this podcast. You know, we debated the fact that what would be the use, right? We're three, you know, we're one handsome and two below average looking men. And what would be the point for staring at that for an hour? The last 45 seconds of staring at Corey would have actually had your money's worth because this guy was losing his collective shit, taking his hat off, rolling his eyes. Corey, do you want to say something? Is there anything you want to comment on? But first, before you do, give me the comparison. Which one won the day?

Corey 7:40

trump this is so dumb the idea that trudeau's reaction to trump's moment is somehow bigger than trump's moment like god come on it's just like the i

Corey 7:50

i don't even know what to say about that like kind of the the canadian centricity of that that's that's absurd right and it's just absurd we will be talking about trump we will be talking about an american president deciding that he is going to tear gas his own citizens walk across and not separate church and state i mean that that That is far more impactful than Trudeau maybe making a statement, maybe just not knowing what to say. I suspect he was making a statement, but come on. Come on. He

Carter 8:19

He was absolutely making a statement. What the hell is this? I don't know. It's a world leader saying to other world leaders, that world leader, the guy who used to be the leader of the free world, is trash. That was the message, and that message isn't heard very often in international politics, Mr. Hogan. I don't

Corey 8:37

don't know if I matter at Zane's question or Carter's answer. They're both terrible. I'll tell you this.

Corey 8:44

Do you want to, like,

SPEAKER_02 8:44

like, well, you have thought of doing your own spinoff podcast. We could just leave and let that happen. Corey talks

Corey 8:52

Well, it would certainly

Corey 8:54

certainly improve this particular segment. I'll tell you this.

Corey 9:00

The thing Trump, you know, the whole Trump reaction was shocking. There's absolutely no way Justin Trudeau wasn't expecting some version of the question. The only curveball put on the question was, and what would your silence or inability or unwillingness to answer this question say? Right? So it almost became a bit of a trap. Like you either tell me something about how bad Trump is, or you say how bad you are by not saying anything at all. So, I mean, there was that curveball, which is the only reason I don't say 100% absolutely guaranteed that it was Trudeau making a statement. However, that

Corey 9:36

that explains maybe 10 seconds of it. The other 11 were kind of hamming it up, in my opinion. Hamming

Corey 9:43

you know, to your point, and this is just a general rule about diplomacy, you

Corey 9:48

you don't leave a lot of room for interpretation, right? You overstate everything. your your pauses are longer your statements are more definitive this is how you make sure you're not misunderstood and he obviously wanted to make sure he was not misunderstood in this moment or i think so at least so carter

SPEAKER_02 10:06

any any rebuttal go ahead cory finish it off i

Corey 10:09

i i don't know everything that we talk about trudeau doing this week is in reaction in a sense to what the president of the united states did we

Corey 10:17

we are this is not a story about us we have our own we have our own challenges with race. We've talked about that last week. We will continue to talk about those.

Corey 10:27

know, as Canadians, we do have a bad habit of trying to insert ourselves into the center of everything. And this is this is about how bad Trump is. This is not about Trudeau's moments of humanity.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Wait, and Corey, I'll come back to this. But Carter, to you, do you do you take Corey's argument here that everything here is a reaction to Trump, even as it relates to the knee that Trudeau took?

Carter 10:47

It's been three and a half years of reacting to Trump. There's

Carter 10:50

There's never a moment in our our collective experience right now that we're not reacting to

Carter 10:55

something that the former leader of the free world used to be, you know, like has said or done.

Carter 11:00

And watching a great superpower disintegrate and have their global reputation undermined. I

Carter 11:09

mean, all we're doing is reacting to Trump.

Carter 11:13

especially here in Canada.

Carter 11:15

Canadians, every time something happens in the the united states we are going to be impacted uh

Carter 11:19

uh we talked about that last week we'll talk about that next week anything that happens uh is going to create a reaction here i

Carter 11:28

don't understand how this reaction is any different than any other reaction because really who the hell has been taking action uh that we can remember in the last three and a half years other than trump because everything else is just holy shit what did you just say because it's all nuts nuts

SPEAKER_02 11:47

cory Corey, I'm not buying it. I'm not buying the fact that the knee, which is something that Trudeau was probably the first leader in the world to do. And we can discuss, you know, what actions need to follow. I don't believe that was a reaction to Trump. Explain to me, maybe explain to our audience how you say that or how you kind of make that argument. argument.

Corey 12:06

Here's what I'll say. I can see a world where Justin Trudeau would have done that without Donald

Corey 12:11

Donald Trump having reacted as poorly as he did there. But there is no way our prime minister was unaware of the comparison he was drawing when he did that, right? Donald Trump has acted in a downright bizarre fashion, even for him. Like, you know, he was saying George George Floyd's looking down from heaven happy that the jobs report's good and the stock market's doing well.

Corey 12:36

It's insanity. But, but Trudeau

Corey 12:39

Trudeau knows that that is, that is kind of the world leader.

Corey 12:44

You know, that, that is the sun through which the planets of every other world leader are revolving right now. All actions are judged relative to that. And I am absolutely certain that Trudeau was happy to draw the comparison that he did. I think it was in reaction. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing in this case. He was saying people need to see a world leader take a different stance. And this is how I can best present these things. But yes, it was absolutely a reaction in my opinion. Corey,

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Corey, if you were advising him like in this week, would you have indicated he would do something like this? Didn't have to be exactly what he did with the 21 second pause or taking the knee at the protest. But did you feel like, because you're the one who's saying we insert ourselves into anything, would your advice have been to not do anything? I just want to clarify where you stand on this.

Corey 13:27

I think when you're the Prime Minister of Canada, you have to say something about this. This is such an important issue. I certainly think that you can make the case that globally, we need to see world leaders. And we don't tend to think of Canada as a world leader in a lot of contexts, but we are a huge economy, you know, bigger than Russia's economy. They need to see people taking action like this and understand that this is that there are people fighting for a better world. It's not just people clearing, you

Corey 13:56

you know, squares with tear gas and then going and grandstanding in front of a church. There are people actively working to make this a better world. So yeah, I think it was absolutely appropriate that he did that. Absolutely appropriate. Absolutely right. But absolutely a reaction to Trump.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Carter, would you have advised the same that a reactionary moment, If you buy that, that sort of phrasing of what Trudeau did was necessary. We feel like what Trudeau did this week was probably what you would have would have advised in some way. We

Carter 14:25

We are all reacting.

Carter 14:27

We reacted with our podcast last week. We're reacting with our podcast this week. We're doing it. Why wouldn't we have told Trudeau to do it?

Carter 14:33

To ignore this moment would have been, number

Carter 14:36

number one, morally wrong

Carter 14:38

wrong and offside with, I think, what the morals of the of Canada are. And number two, it's politically bad

Carter 14:46

bad politics. You don't want to be offside at a time when everybody's on one side.

Carter 14:52

certainly I think Canadians, you

Carter 14:55

you know, to echo Corey's point, we have our own, we have a very tarnished, our own tarnished history with race that we can't walk past. But to

Carter 15:06

not stand up in this moment when everybody else is acknowledging the challenges that the quote

Carter 15:11

quote unquote Western world have with race.

Carter 15:15

This is the time that Trudeau we would have all advised Trudeau to do something, whether it was this specific thing or something else. Carter,

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Carter, give me the political scorecard. How would you rank the two symbols that Trudeau had this week with the knee and the 21 seconds of silence? Were they home runs?

Carter 15:30

well, I thought the knee was, I

Carter 15:33

thought the knee was interesting in that it was, it was the first, you know, Corey brought that up when in his comments, you know, it was the first world leader to take a knee with protesters. And that was significant. I still think the 21 seconds is more important. I think the 21 seconds is more important in a historical sense because it is an admonishment of the leadership that exists south of our border.

Carter 15:56

just don't think that that type of admonishment exists very frequently.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Corey, to you, political scorecard on those two symbols?

Corey 16:05

don't know. I'm not even sure people were sitting around saying, what's the political score on this? I suspect having sat in offices like that and conversations like that, There was probably a lot of conversation about what's right.

Corey 16:19

it was politically savvy or not is something

Corey 16:23

something that I don't think anybody can really tell you right now. And I think, frankly, maybe they shouldn't be so worried about that. And they probably haven't been. But they

Corey 16:32

they were actions that landed well. I think Canadians wanted a way that they could have their leader say they are absolutely not aligned with the United States on this one. Trudeau found a way to do that.

Corey 16:46

The taking an A&E will be more controversial. Absolutely. But,

Corey 16:51

But, you know, he drew a line in the sand. And I think it was a powerful statement. And I certainly think it will be remembered.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Look at that. Corey's the one calling me, effectively pointing out that I'm crass for even asking the question. you

Carter 17:04

you know it's frustrating though because what is what high-mindedness is this come

Carter 17:12

is frustrating because you know trudeau goes to india where's all the you know where's all the the traditional get-ups and those types of things and doesn't think of the politics and doesn't think about how it's going to look and it lands unbelievably flat and you know now trudeau

Carter 17:26

trudeau is is thinking of the politics and being part of the political conversation that exists because this This isn't an issue that exists outside of politics. It is a political issue, and it needs a political response because you can't be tone deaf to this situation.

Corey 17:42

So the question was political scorecard. It wasn't about politics. I agree with you about politics. But the reason why the India trip was very different is

Corey 17:51

is that it was unnecessary. It was injecting into a different culture almost your dress-up of their culture. Right. This is this is very different.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yeah. And the worst

SPEAKER_02 18:04

is he still hasn't returned my clothes. So quick question to you guys.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

want I don't want to lose this thread before I move on. But then I want to focus in on the knee a little bit more because of what it meant. The first doing it with protesters, there was criticism. It was not universal acclaim. It was not universally positive because the saying was that he hasn't really done anything. He took the knee. Take the knee after you've done something. Carter, what do you make of that exercise? Take the knee after you've done something. Has this just kind of increased the political hurdle for Trudeau now to actually deliver on something like this? Because he taking his victory lap before he does anything.

Carter 18:47

mean, this is going to be the ultimate benchmark, right? It is easier to take a knee than it is to implement some sort of cultural change in Canada. This isn't new. It is not.

Carter 19:01

I mean, maybe it's more serious now, but I don't think so. I think it's been a crisis. We just ignored it for so damn long. It's hard to know what level of the crisis we're at. um

Carter 19:12

trudeau has now i

Carter 19:15

think firmly indicated that he's going to do something um whether that something measures up or not i'll

Carter 19:21

i'll let us judge that in a future podcast but it's going to be hard it's

Carter 19:26

it's going to be hard because it is one thing to legislate something it is another thing entirely to

Carter 19:30

to change the way that people think well

Carter 19:32

well carter that's ultimately where we are well

SPEAKER_02 19:34

well with that being said don't you think he's setting himself up for failure he gets what's close to universal universal praise on this with some you know criticism for taking the knee now it can't get better than that any any sort of difficulty and policy in a minority government how does how does he deliver saying

Carter 19:48

saying we've talked about this before he's the prime minister of canada everything that lands on his desk is a half win half loss right

Carter 19:54

right like there is there's very little you can do in the world he could take the knee and then have 95 percent of canadians think that that was the right mood a

Carter 20:02

a move i'm not sure if it's 95 i'm not sure if it's 90 you know i haven't seen any polling on But what I can say is

Carter 20:08

is that when he brings legislation, when he actually does something,

Carter 20:12

rather than just doing something symbolic,

Carter 20:15

it will not receive nearly the praise that just taking the symbolic action does. And the interesting piece is in terms of where the value lies, sometimes the value lies in the symbolic more than the value lies in the actual action. And that's, Trudeau's

Carter 20:32

Trudeau's always had the symbolism just

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Yeah, Corey, same question to you. Like, how do you reconcile this symbolism right now with action that he has to, I guess, more so deliver on in the coming weeks, months, years? years

Corey 20:50

and this isn't unique to the federal government of canada there are an awful lot of organizations out there putting out an awful lot of statements making an awful lot of proclamations about how their behavior will be governed in the future that it will be difficult to follow up on for sure they should it will be difficult for them to do so and they are raising expectations of action um there there are people who are striking committees about how they are going going to look at things differently. There are an awful lot of organizations saying we are doing a lot of soul searching. Those

Corey 21:20

Those are pretty open ended. Those allow you to read into your into the moment your expectations and that organization meeting those expectations. That is not a guarantee those expectations will be met. What could come out of it could be pretty piss poor, not just for the federal government, but for a lot of these groups. So I think that my general counsel to anybody in this organization is be very careful. Because the easiest thing in the world is to agree, agree,

Corey 21:44

right? Just to agree wholesale. But if

Corey 21:47

if it's sincere, and if you're going to follow this up with sincere action that is actually going to make a difference in people's lives,

Corey 21:53

you need to say things that you can actually do. And you cannot just

Corey 21:58

just kind of set up that future problem for yourself and sleep at night. So think very carefully about these proclamations that you're making. And

Corey 22:05

And that goes for the federal government as well. You

SPEAKER_02 22:07

You bring up a very interesting sort of line of questioning, which I hadn't planned on, but I want to chat about, which is the other side of the coin. Because as much as you guys have been in government, in the bureaucracy, you know, responding, you guys have also dealt with being the advocates trying to push for the change. So Carter, to you, if you were giving free counsel to, you know, individuals of the Black Lives Matter movement, or even your local chapter trying to push the government, what would you tell them? Like, what would you tell them right now when organizations, governments, municipal leaders are making these promises, what is the accountability mechanism that you feel like works the best or that you would encourage them to lean into in this moment in time?

Carter 22:46

I'm kind of of two minds because I want to tell them to make sure that they are broad enough to stay unified, right? So that the weakness of these movements is that they are, of course, of course, representative of the moment that they're in. And they're also representative of the group

Carter 23:04

group of people that they're trying to represent. But

Carter 23:07

everybody brings a different goal

Carter 23:08

goal or agenda to the table.

Carter 23:12

wait for when these movements are going on when you're in government is for the movement just to fall apart. Because governments

Carter 23:18

governments don't kill movements, movements kill movements. And

Carter 23:24

if Black Lives Matter, this isn't the first time we've seen Black Lives Matter.

Carter 23:29

If you're going to see it and you're going to see it actually succeed, it has to be both

Carter 23:34

committed in its goals while

Carter 23:36

while also being very, you

Carter 23:39

know, committed in what it's trying to achieve and holding everybody within the movement accountable

Carter 23:45

accountable to that singular set of goals. The beauty of Mothers Against Drug Driving, for example, is that it has a singular focus. It knows exactly what it wants to be when it grows up. It has a singular legislative aim. aim?

Carter 23:58

What is the legislative aim of Black Lives Matter? And how will they bring that to government? So that you, because ultimately what government's going to need right now is a scorecard.

Carter 24:07

How do we keep you happy? How can you, you know, so when we talk to Black Lives Matter, you

Carter 24:12

you know, if I was advising them, I'd say, okay, Black Lives Matter, what

Carter 24:15

what are we asking government to do?

Carter 24:17

What's the thing that they can do tomorrow that

Carter 24:20

they can check off their to-do list? And then we can ask them for another thing the

Carter 24:23

the next day, but you have to ask them for the first thing first.

Carter 24:26

And that's what i

Carter 24:28

kills movements is that they

Carter 24:30

they can't agree on the first thing or the second thing or the third thing they want it all they want it all now and

Carter 24:36

that's not governments to give give a government can't give these things cory

SPEAKER_02 24:39

cory i want to go down a rabbit hole with carter for one second before i come to you carter have you been do you recall at your time as chief of staff or as a senior political official being lobbied by a movement that just shot itself in the foot i'm kind of curious if you have any top of mind anecdotal sort of thoughts related to the concrete concrete advice you had here great

SPEAKER_02 25:00

great we'll take that car's giving us 21 21

SPEAKER_02 25:02

seconds of silence by steven carter he's gonna think deeply you

Carter 25:08

know i mean we did a lot of work with with mad and we did a lot of work with um with

Carter 25:13

with you know drunk driving and i

Carter 25:17

think that we were okay because we ultimately we wanted to give them what they were asking for they were very very disciplined They came in and asked for a very specific thing that had been done in

Carter 25:26

in other jurisdictions, and we were able to meet that. They

Carter 25:28

They said, here's the legislation that exists in other jurisdictions. Why aren't you doing that, you dumb fucks? And that's easy. That's easy. I'm not sure that that easy checkbox exists with Black Lives Matter as it's currently being discussed.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Yeah, Corey, over to you. What would the council be to organizations looking to advance their agenda with government at this moment when government's making these promises? Well,

Corey 25:52

the answer was hidden in Carter's inscrutable answer. And that's just to get as concrete as possible. Say, I want this action targeted towards this outcome on these timelines. And I want you to lock into that course of action now publicly.

Corey 26:07

So don't let governments get away with exploring an issue. That's how governments kick a can. Don't let governments get away with task forces. That's how governments kick a can. Get real and get real in a hurry. Now, this is not a one way street. You know, this is a relationship. As soon as you get into that kind of negotiation, governments in return will want assurances. They will want to make sure you stand up and say, I am with the government on this. The government is doing the right thing. If the government feels they will do this and the goalposts are immediately going to move, they're not going to do this. Right. Right. And it's not even because they wouldn't necessarily agree with that course of action in in kind of even the short term, middle term or long term. It's because of the of the challenges of essentially always having to chase the next promise. Right. And in those cases, they will then just say, OK, we're going to do a task force. We're going to do what it takes to get out of the moment and we'll end up doing exactly where you think you want to go or maybe three quarters of it down the road.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Carter finished off. Well,

Carter 27:06

I mean, I just couldn't agree more with what Corey just said, which is obviously very frustrating. But the idea that if

Carter 27:13

if the goalposts are going to constantly move and you're never going to be seen to be succeeding, then why would you even try?

Carter 27:20

And that's the way the government has to think of these things, because ultimately, government still needs to be reelected.

Carter 27:26

And so if they can't win on the issue that you're bringing to the table, they will simply try to make another issue more important by the time they get to the next election.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

I want to take what we're talking about here in theory and make it more concrete. So let's move it on to our next segment, bucking the trend. So I want to talk about three white dudes currently in public office, whether here in Canada or in the United States, who are bucking the trend with some of the, I guess what I say, the trends that are happening in the last couple of weeks. And I wanted to start with this guy. I wanted to end with this guy, but I'm going to move him first, which is the mayor of Minneapolis. Now, I don't know if you guys had a chance to see this, but he was, the Black Lives Matters protests were outside of his apartment in Minneapolis. They elicited this mayor out to get him out of his apartment. He came out on the street and they asked him point blank, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:15

right? Just as we were just chatting about, will you defund the police? police and a yes or no question on the street, cameras everywhere. And he ultimately gave a rambling response. And for some context for individuals, this is a progressive Democratic mayor, 38 years old, civil rights lawyer, probably one of the more progressive mayors that the United States has, especially in a place like Minnesota, broadly. But he says, ultimately, no, after two minutes, I will not be defunding the police. So I wanted to talk about this. And I'm not sure if if you guys even had a chance to see this, I didn't give you any warning, but that's the nature of this podcast. But I wanted to talk about this because this is exactly what you're talking about. In theory, this is the movement now holding them to account, but it's missing a critical piece that Corey talked about, which was those goalposts. And there was no real reward because it was you either answer to us right now as a yes, or we're going to primary you out. We've got the election. Corey, I want to go to you first on this.

Corey 29:12

yeah he should have said it after one second and i'm not saying that to be flip i'm not saying that i i think defunding the police is a

Corey 29:19

a crazy idea although it's not an idea i heard anybody talking about until about a week ago at least in my circles which i admit are are just you know very privileged circles um

Corey 29:28

but it's the rambling that really killed him in that case because he satisfied nobody as a result he disseminated he went back and forth he he rambled and then he ultimately got to where he was going to end up and if in the first moment he realized i'm not going to get away with a little soft shoe here i can't dance i'm going to just have to say the answer is no by

Corey 29:49

by the way and now the thing is the majority like a veto proof majority of council has generally agreed to do this uh is kind of the next part of that story um but

Corey 29:59

but instead he he kind of flailed about and And that was really his challenge on that moment. Carter?

Carter 30:06

Well, I think that this is also really important for what you're asking from the government, because the words matter, right? We get three to five words that are going to define the issue and define the piece. And the words that were chosen are defund the police. Now, what does that mean? What does that look like? Whereas if you'd chosen something like demilitarize the police or re reconstitute the police or refocus the police, there's a number of different words that could have been used that really

Carter 30:39

really bring us back to some of the core problems defunding the police. there's a whole group of the audience that's not going to be looking for the nuance of what the hell does that mean they're going to hear literally defund the police which means no more police which means no one's coming to stop uh the the issues that people are legitimately afraid of so

Carter 31:00

so my my view is this

Carter 31:03

is an opportunity for for protest movements like black lives matter to

Carter 31:09

work Work the language and understand they're

Carter 31:12

they're going to get a lot of yes. There's a lot of yes out there. So ask for things that people can say yes to.

Carter 31:19

There's a lot of yes, a tremendous amount. Like we've seen the NFL reverse

Carter 31:23

reverse their position. Now, that

Carter 31:26

that doesn't matter as much, right? That doesn't have real consequence, but it's yes. And that's where we can start to see, you know, like I

Carter 31:33

I would have, I don't know, maybe Maybe I'm just I would have been more comfortable saying we have to demilitarize the police. We have to move towards a community police service that actually works for the community, including

Carter 31:45

including and maybe even putting black

Carter 31:49

black lives at the forefront because it's it's it's broken. It's just totally broken. I can't believe how many videos we're seeing and

Carter 31:57

how many we've been seeing for years that,

Carter 32:01

you know, we know it's broken and it's not being fixed.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

You know, Corey, I want to go to you on this because Carter just mentioned something that we often talk about in the advocacy world, which is, you know, tell me something I can say yes to let me be the champion of the parade so that I can get credit and take the victory lap as a public official in times like this. And we talk about that in peace times, right, how you go and advocate to government to push through legislation and, you know, policies that that you want legislated. Does that all change now? Like, is it is it now like, rather than any sort of carrot, it's just pure stick, like you either do something or it's over? Is that the right tact in this moment in time? Because it seems to be working, at least it did in Minneapolis, they didn't get the mayor. But to your point, you know, they got city council, it's happening in LA, it's happening other places. Is it now just just a stick that you go with? to get this change done?

Corey 32:52

The stick has been pretty effective, so I don't want to totally disparage it, but it's really the difference between compliance versus commitment, right? If governments are terrified, they will do exactly what they think they need to do to manage the moment and keep the public on side. But the minute the light is off that there is going to be a thousand small ways they are going to start to erode those commitments. Defund the police all of a sudden becomes, yeah, we're just renaming the police force, right? That's how it happens. and it happens faster than you can possibly imagine. The best way to get a government on side for the long term is to align your interests with their interests. And that, at the end of the day, means sharing some of the credit for the good things you're doing with them to make them invested in this being a long-term solution.

Corey 33:33

Carter, do you agree with that?

Carter 33:35

Yeah, I do. And it's really tough because I think also,

Carter 33:38

especially a group like Black Lives Matter, where the consequences have been so severe for so long, uh and there's righteous

Carter 33:47

righteous anger um it's

Carter 33:50

it's hard to not

Carter 33:52

not just simply say now every you know give us everything i i think you can still ask for lots of things but it really needs to be thought through in terms of what the win is and uh there's tremendous amount of opportunity uh for the world to get better um

Carter 34:07

um it needs to get better so let's let's make sure that we're working you know that everybody's on the same side as we're going through this and that sides, I think we talked about this, I spoke about it last week, don't make sides, try and stay away from sides, try and make sure that everybody's moving towards achievable

Carter 34:24

achievable goals that will make a tremendous difference for generations.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Corey, I want to finish with you on this particular one, which is to what Carter said earlier around keeping this movement as broad as it can. Now that this concept of defunding the The police is out there. The ask is being made of municipal leaders, sometimes point blank on the street while cameras are being recorded. Does the ask have to now be universally that or can they can they layer in can the movement layer in other elements into it? Like, I'm just trying to understand. And I know we may not have the answers, but I want to think us think through this is if you're leading the movements right now, are you layering in other asks after you get a few yeses in L.A. and Minneapolis and other cities? What are you kind of thinking about?

Corey 35:05

Yeah, of course, you're always thinking about how, especially if you are an advocacy group that is advocating for a cause, I don't know of very many advocacy groups that get everything they want, right? Because ultimately, they're usually built less around a concrete deliverable and more about an outcome. And often that outcome is rather visionary. It is, you know, the world they want. It's the city on a hill, right? And so, of course, as you start getting success, you follow up success with additional requests. You move the conversation forward. You try to change the overall landscape. And by doing that, you're not just trying to push further, but you're helping secure the gains that you got. Because

Corey 35:43

Because all of a sudden, those gains aren't the vanguard. The vanguard is the vanguard. And it allows you to have a certain security that things are not going to backslide potentially as far as they could.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

The vanguard is the vanguard is the most Corey Hogan phrase I've heard, Carter, to you. Well,

Carter 35:56

Well, I would just say that this is ultimately, while it appears like an international movement, and obviously it is having tremendous international impact, it is still at its core a local movement. And

Carter 36:06

And because it's local, it has the ability to respond to the local challenges,

Carter 36:12

challenges, the local conditions, and people can make different

Carter 36:16

different asks to different governments. And then you can start seeing those pieces of legislation, like my Matt example from earlier, where Matt comes in and says, look at this legislation that's really working well in British

Carter 36:28

You can see those types of things that are brought

Carter 36:31

brought in over and over and over again across different markets because each market, each community has achieved different ends.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

is abundantly clear Stephen only had one meeting as chief of staff. He

Carter 36:45

No, it was Graham and Pipelines. Those are the only two meetings I took.

Carter 36:48

I'll tell you something,

Corey 36:49

something, Stephen. It could not be more

Corey 36:52

more clear that you are desperate to talk about... I don't want to talk about it. Yeah, you don't want to talk about the Alberta government's changes to drunk driving legislation? I don't have it on

SPEAKER_02 37:01

on the agenda either. Okay, I want to move it on to our next of three individuals. individuals. Mitt Romney, a guy with presidential aspirations, now senator from Utah, been a pseudo

SPEAKER_02 37:14

pseudo-outspoken critic of Trump on certain issues, now marching on the streets in Washington talking about Black Lives Matter. The political importance of this, was this actually important or is this becoming too big of a deal as we kind of sit here on Sunday evening and as the internet bubbles up about this?

Carter 37:33

of course it matters. This

Carter 37:35

This is a rebuke. I mean, the same way that in my mind, Trudeau's taking the knee and Trudeau's 21 seconds mattered. This is a rebuke of the man who's currently in the office. And I was I was thinking, you know, I mean, obviously the parallels to his father in 1968 or 69 are fairly right

Carter 37:54

right out there. And he's he's clearly, you know, taking this opportunity to show that the values of his family and the values of the

Carter 38:03

the Republican Party can

Carter 38:05

can and should be on

Carter 38:07

on the side of the Black Lives Matter. matter. This should not be a divisive issue.

Carter 38:12

can't help thinking that

Carter 38:14

that he's also playing a different game.

Carter 38:16

I can't help thinking that

Carter 38:18

that there's somewhere, there's conversations within the Republican Party itself, wondering

Carter 38:22

wondering if Trump can weather this and whether or not Trump's

Carter 38:25

Trump's still going to be the standard bearer in

Carter 38:27

in 2020, which as I know, nuts. I see Corey shaking his head. I can feeling him shaking his head all the way over here in northwest calgary i i'm still i i i think and i wonder if the optimist in mitt romney isn't saying you know if this guy goes down another six points the republicans are going to have no choice but to replace him in

Carter 38:49

in over the summer and he very easily with

Carter 38:52

with another outbreak of covet or

Carter 38:54

or with a uh continued unrest of black lives matter or Or, God forbid, some other unforeseen

Carter 39:02

challenge in the future, in the coming weeks.

Carter 39:08

I wouldn't be surprised if Romney's not trying to position himself as a choice.

Carter 39:13

choice. That's Stephen Carter.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

of predictions, Stephen Carter, is back. I am

Carter 39:22

Write this one down. Write this one down. You never write down the ones that are right on. You only write down the ones I'm wrong on. I'm

Carter 39:30

definitely going to grab this

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Corey, I was going to ask you about Romney's upside. I mean, if it's not president in 2020, and it seems like you've taken a step back, you see more lukewarm than he did before. But if it's not president, what is Romney's upside here? Well, what's his political upside? I mean, people already know that he's a rebuke of Trump, so he's probably solidified his ground with moderates. but talk to me about some of his upside well

Corey 39:59

maybe it's legacy or is it possible he's a principled man i mean maybe it is maybe we should be a little less cynical about all of these things he is 73 he's not going to run in 2024 i can't imagine so it's either president now or never um

Corey 40:14

i don't know i mean a lot of people probably look at him and say

Corey 40:18

yeah better than joe better than donald yeah

Corey 40:21

i don't know maybe maybe he is just trying to keep his options open. But I think that it was a powerful statement. And it also presents an alternative worldview of republicanism that I think is rather appealing to a number of never Trumpers who were never happy with Donald Trump.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

I want to move it on to our third individual of this set. And I'm focusing more locally on here because we talked about Jacob Fry, the mayor of Minneapolis. We talked about Mitt Romney marching Black Lives Matter. Another person bucking the trend in some ways, as other world leaders, premiers, governors, et cetera, are trying to increase the capacity of citizens to have freedom around things like protesting, things like going out, this conversation between the civil rights of citizens and police. I look at Jason Kenney here at Bill One in Alberta. So Stephen Carter, give us an understanding what Bill One is, and then give me your reaction to what's happening here, because it is related to this larger swath lot of issues we're discussing right now as well.

Carter 41:20

Well, I mean, Bill 1, simply put, it's defined as the Critical Infrastructure Defense Act. And if you're ever looking at something that really restricts your rights, always look at something that's defending something else. This is defending really

Carter 41:38

critical infrastructure like pipelines, oil and gas production, utilities, communications,

Carter 41:43

communications, communications, highways, railways, mines, any place, frankly, that

Carter 41:46

that anyone would like to

Carter 41:50

It's putting in a different legal infrastructure,

Carter 41:52

infrastructure, different legal parameters for people to be able to do so. And it's changed the penalties for these types of protests. So 10,000 bucks for the first offense, $25,000 for subsequent offenses with possible prison time. So, you

Carter 42:11

there's There's been a question asked of whether or not the

Carter 42:14

the Black Lives Matter protests,

Carter 42:16

protests, which have shut down roadways, which have not targeted what we would consider critical infrastructure, but

Carter 42:23

but whether or not they'd even still be legal in a dystopian

Carter 42:26

dystopian future under Jason Kenney as premier. And this bill did pass right

Carter 42:31

right in the middle of

Carter 42:32

the Black Lives Matter protests.

Carter 42:36

protests. And it's funny because in Alberta, and I think a lot of places, you can get almost anything done in this particular moment if you say it's for jobs. It's for jobs. It's to protect people's jobs. And I guess that it is, but it also comes at a cost because people's jobs and people's voices, the

Carter 42:55

the jobs come come and go voices are forever and when you take away the ability to protest the decisions of government uh

Carter 43:02

uh in any way or protest and get your point across it does undermine some of our fundamental rights as canadians uh and and this this act uh

Carter 43:13

uh i think does that um

Carter 43:15

and and this is what kenny does kenny comes after kenny kenny doesn't really care uh about these rights he cares about being

Carter 43:24

being in charge and being in control. And that's all this bill is really trying to do.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Corey, I've talked about COVID being cloud cover. Now COVID plus Black Lives Matter. Is this cloud cover for Kenny to pass this through? Or are you once again on the train of saying that Carter and I are too cynical?

Corey 43:43

This particular bill occurred before COVID. It has nothing to do with COVID. I think that's the first thing that you need to- No, I'm saying passing it

Corey 43:51

cover. That's what I'm

Corey 43:52

trying to say. It has nothing to do with COVID. So just put COVID out of your heads on that one. And I think that the scare quotes Carter is putting around possible prison time also need to be just moderated a bit. Did I

Carter 44:02

I read the act wrong? No, I didn't. Prison

Corey 44:05

Prison time is a possibility for an awful large number of offenses. Failure to yield for a school bus has possible prison time, okay? Up to six months is part of that language that just gets bolted onto bills left, right, and center. The real question is whether this is an appropriate and just increase in the amount of penalty in a cash sense. Right. And this was announced in the context of a number of these protests that occurred up in Edmonton last year. And it was funny. One of the protests. So a bridge got shut down for a large period of time. People were losing their minds. One of the protesters on that bridge used to work for me just in the what a small world kind of thing. and um and

Corey 44:44

and then there was some uh similar protests just west of the city related to pipeline construction and whatnot um there

Corey 44:51

there was this micro narrative right about whether whether these things should be allowed and and what would Alberta do about that and you know politicians did what politicians do which is they in a moment reacted to the moment to do something they probably would have wanted to do anyways but they saw an opportunity to do that so So obviously, when it was created, it was not even really about Alberta, although it has impact in Alberta. It was Alberta making a stand about what they believe is appropriate if somebody is trying to shut down critical infrastructure. And that's obviously going to play out with the construction of the Trans Mountain Pipeline in British Columbia more than it is here, right?

Corey 45:30

right? None of these projects were ever at risk in Alberta. But it was kind of your standard statement bill that always people

Corey 45:37

people go searching for, for Bill 1. I mean, if you want to just see a litany of like sad, really kind of either morally or legally weak legislation, look at Bill 1s throughout history and throughout jurisdictions. They're showpieces that just try to show what the government is about at that moment. And they're not really about governing most of the time. I'll let you in on a little secret. secret i'm

Corey 46:00

i'm going to do a reenactment of one month before session everywhere

Corey 46:03

everywhere under every political party sessions

Corey 46:06

sessions coming up do

Corey 46:08

do you have a bill one what are we going to say this session yeah

Carter 46:11

yeah they chose and they chose to restrict people's rights on on protests that rarely even happen and they tried to put uh astronomical fines and constraints so that we could have uh our own little world old where no one protests pipelines and said i got i got news for you bill one has no impact on the development of pipelines or oil and gas facilities because anywhere in the world except alberta and it's not going to matter because these things were rarely protested in alberta anyways like it has you're

Carter 46:42

you're right it has no impact but it does send a message don't mess with us you little fuckers that's what the message is and it and

SPEAKER_02 46:51

not the right but i'm hearing you say that that's not the right message for this government to be delivering not

Carter 46:56

not at this time

Carter 46:57

and you know what you can put it on the back burner you

Carter 47:00

got all this shit going on you got the massive protests some of the largest protests in in alberta history are happening right now why would you pass a protest an anti-protest bill put

Carter 47:10

put it on the back burner you got some time you got some time corey

SPEAKER_02 47:14

corey you seem more dismissive he's

Carter 47:20

don't i'm not a fan of

Corey 47:22

of of the the idea that we are going to make protesting a financial hardship. I think that there is a balance that governments must strike between facilitating the right to free speech and the fact that things need to move on. I don't know that when I hear big round numbers like 10,000 and 25,000, that it is well calibrated. Those numbers seem to be chosen more for sticker shock than they are for whether it appropriately reflects what the economic

Corey 47:46

economic consequences could be. But, you know, in my opinion, if you wanted to go this road, it would have made more sense to to try to tie it to what the cost was, but they didn't do that. And so here we are. And I think that it is not the bill I would have written. It's not a bill I would recommend to anybody, right? But it's not this just like assault on democracy that Stephen Carter is making it out to be.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

Sure it is. I'm going to leave it right there for that segment. Let's move it on to our last segment, our over, under, and our lightning round. Guys, are you ready?

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Carter, I'm going to start with you. On a scale of 1 to 10, give

SPEAKER_02 48:21

give me how large and how brilliant of a masterstroke was it for Black Lives Matter's plaza to be created? Now, this is, of course, the yellow paint as well as the renaming for that street location. I guess helped in part by the mayor of D.C. Give me the political masterstroke for what the symbolism of that was. It

Carter 48:42

was excellent. If for no other reason than the drone shot was amazing. Like the shot from above was fantastic. So I got a real shot.

Corey 48:51

not a real shot.

Carter 48:51

shot. I don't even care. You know what? I don't even care. It looks perfect.

Corey 48:58

think it was pretty good but they better keep painting it because the symbolism of that fading apart uh will not be great on dc if they

SPEAKER_02 49:05

that's a very interesting point over under on seven over under on seven how big of a deal is it for the biden campaign uh that colin powell today said that he's voting for for joe biden over

SPEAKER_02 49:16

over under on seven cory i'll go to you first it's

Corey 49:21

exactly what you would expect unless he's willing to get off the bench and actually go campaign for him, it's

Carter 49:27

Yeah, needs improvement. Colin Powell has come off and he's endorsed virtually every Democratic nominee for over a decade. This isn't something new.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Good, so I'm glad that you guys are continuing the trend of not answering my questions numerically or otherwise. That's fantastic. Next one, Corey, I'm going to you. Put on the hat of a GOP strategist, which I feel like you've been doing this episode anyways. ways uh but but

SPEAKER_02 49:53

but but give a letter grade okay you're a gop strategist give a letter grade to trump declaring antifa as a terrorist organization oh

Corey 50:06

like i'm gonna you know okay so i this is one of those issues right this

SPEAKER_02 50:12

is when we break out and have the premium edition where cory just ran for 25 minutes no

Corey 50:17

no and maybe my rat's not even quite what you expect like i

Corey 50:22

i don't know like there is this debate going on online that i'm sure you have all seen whether whether

Corey 50:28

whether being and antifa is being anti-fascist which i think maybe we maybe we could all support right uh or whether antifa means it means violent action to take down society which is is extreme interpretation the other way around also not mutually exclusive interpretations they They can be both things. But the the the

Corey 50:50

the challenge I have is that no matter which one it is, it is not an organization. Right. It is like this manifesto. It's this collective. It's it's it's declaring war on an ideology that even those within it cannot agree upon. Like this doesn't really make any sense. And it's just the standard Trump grandstanding that we've come to expect. I am concerned that it could have serious consequences on people's lives. You know, Trump could could end up really ruining

Corey 51:16

ruining some young people's futures. And for that, he should just be condemned. And hopefully a judge will step in. But this whole thing is baffling.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Carter, same question to you. The letter grade you'd assign if you were a GOP strategist to Trump declaring Antifa a terrorist organization? organization it's

Carter 51:31

it's a failure uh i mean there is no organization like like terrorist

Carter 51:35

terrorist organizations need to be actual organizations and uh

Carter 51:39

uh the united states can bring themselves to bring the kkk to the level of uh

Carter 51:44

uh terrorist organization but they've they've taken this this

Carter 51:48

mean really all it was is trump saying i need an enemy people

Carter 51:52

people on my people in my base seem to think that this antifa is a thing so let's go after them forgetting of course it stands for anti-fascists and the fact that it happened right on around june 6th the anniversary of d-day when america you know the what the world united to actually fight real fascists um it was pretty tone deaf and stupid but what else do you expect from trump what else can you expect from trump he needed an enemy he picked an enemy even if the enemy doesn't exist that really doesn't matter to him oh

Corey 52:23

oh i forgot you were asking if it was a gop strategist point of view so i i changed my mind it's actually a b

Carter 52:29

Oh, for God's sake. No, honestly, I

Corey 52:33

it's going to play with his base. It's going to play with his base great. Like, this is, this is, they've

Corey 52:39

they've never met anybody who professes to be Antifa. They've never contemplated going to a city because they're worried that, you know, without open carry laws, they'll be killed. This is, this is just, it's fine for his base.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

Over, under, on six, the political savvy of Jagmeet Singh. No, the question doesn't stop there. The political savvy of Jagmeet Singh,

SPEAKER_02 53:03

out Trudeau and saying that he should have been more assertive in rebuking Donald Trump post 21 second pause. What do you think of that line of reasoning and how, maybe not how it delivered, because I don't think many people heard it. But what what what you kind of feel like Jagmeet sort of strategy there was, Corey?

Corey 53:24

I don't think it reflects well on him. And there are going to be people who say you

Corey 53:28

you don't put water in your wine. If you've got a problem with the president of the United States, you stand up and say so. But that's not like we've seen too often what the consequences of that that are. Right. We've seen what Trump will do in the morning if he feels he was slighted the evening before. so like i don't think it was very smart yeah

SPEAKER_02 53:47

over under on six on the jig meat strategy there i

Carter 53:50

mean total failure i mean no one even heard about it it has no impact and he didn't even give a suggestion what he should have done like it's just the

Carter 53:56

the guy's weak he's been weak he

Carter 53:58

he is weak he will continue to be weak last

SPEAKER_02 54:01

last question on a scale of one to ten not how good or bad it was just just so you know it's just so you get that prepped because cory i know you haven't been listening to some of the questions. One of the questions.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

On a scale of one to 10,

SPEAKER_02 54:17

will the Tom Cotton piece that the New York Times ran have on their reputation going forward? So just to fill people in, the New York Times editorial board ran a piece by Senator Tom Cotton, same guy who was effectively advocating for the military to plow people down during protests on Twitter, got to write a piece in the New York Times. A lot of reporters within Within the Times, editorial staff and otherwise went on Twitter with what seemed like a coordinated campaign saying that this would put black reporters in danger at the Times. How much of a hit is this going to take to the Times? Carter, I'll go with you first on this.

Carter 54:50

Well, the editorial pages editor just resigned, so it has a tremendous impact on him.

Carter 54:57

And it has about $200,000 worth of impact on Tom Cotton, which is how much money he's raised since the editorial was published, and he doesn't have an opponent. So

Carter 55:06

So all of that money is ultimately going to be funneled

Carter 55:08

funneled back into advertising against Joe Biden. So, you

Carter 55:13

Tom Cotton did OK. The New York Times continues to both sides themselves to death in an environment where they're, you

Carter 55:21

you know, apparently you can both sides fascism. I had no idea. Didn't know. Thought you could only have one point on that. but uh

Carter 55:27

uh the new york times and their unending

Carter 55:30

unending desire to be uh unbiased continues to show their fucking stupidity cory

SPEAKER_02 55:36

cory finishes off no

Corey 55:39

that was perfect i'm

SPEAKER_02 55:42

will leave it there that's a wrap on episode 805 of the strategist my name is zane belgi with me as always cory hogan stephen carter and we'll see you next time

Transcript