Transcript
Zain
0:03
This is The Strategist, episode 593. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan. Guys, what is up?
Zain
0:10
Not so much. No? Not so much. You don't got a lot going on, eh? I don't got a lot going on besides this show. Yeah, that's cool.
Zain
0:17
How's your newborn? Doesn't matter.
Corey
0:19
Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Exciting. Not Stephen Carter's life exciting. No, come on. You're wearing a suit.
Carter
0:27
I'm wearing a suit. Why are you wearing a suit? Because I have a job. This is different than you, Zane. Because he has
Corey
0:32
has a trial date. A
Zain
0:35
date. In a court of public
Carter
0:36
That happened last week. That happened last week. Yeah. I had the court of public opinion last week. Did you know that people listen to this podcast? I think you found out for the first time. I was shocked to find out. People actually listen to this podcast, and then they took this, and they called the newspapermen.
Corey
0:53
You and your closest 8,000 friends around this table right now. That's
Carter
0:57
insanity to me. Yeah,
Carter
0:59
Now I'm nervous. Now I'm like, what will I say this time?
Zain
1:02
what will you not say this time? Let's just get right into it because I want to talk about this. So our first segment, failing to get hard.
Zain
1:11
Corey, question directly for you. Oh, yeah. That has to be him. Corey, directly to you. Over, under, on one. How good was Sandra Jansen's soft launch last week?
Corey
1:23
Over, under, on one. On a scale of one to 100? Sure. Under. Okay.
Corey
1:31
hypothetical scenario, guys. What is happening
Corey
1:34
You have a podcast. The irony is so delicious.
Corey
1:38
And on said podcast, you go on a rant about how there's no such thing as a soft launch. We're talking about another candidate. You're launched.
Corey
1:46
And then you just in an offhand comment mentioned that you're hoping that, you know. I
Carter
1:51
I was hoping to work with Saturday. Oh, yeah. No, I'm waiting
Corey
1:53
waiting for the spin here. Let's
Zain
1:54
Let's go. So here we go. Let's fill people in first, and then I'll let Carter get his say. So last week, if you haven't listened to last week's episode, the first thing you need to do is listen to it. But if you aren't going to do that and you're stubborn, here's the update. We were talking about the launch of Donna Kennedy Glanz and Stephen and I were going in what I'd call full disclosure mode. I was saying I knew Donna quite well and she was launching her campaign to become PC leader. We then had a much broader discussion on if there was anything like a soft launch in politics. Could you say you're launching and let's say three weeks later have a room filled with people and parading your name and really actually officially launching? Steven said, fuck no. That's not a thing. That does not exist. You guys are making this – this is false equivalency.
Zain
2:37
equivalency. I'm sorry. People can go back and listen to the game tape. That is almost exactly what happened. Steven's like, no, that's not a thing. Stop being an idiot. By the way, I'm working for Sandra Jansen. We're like, that's great. The only problem there is that Sandra Jansen has not launched a campaign until when you said that. She still hasn't launched a campaign.
Zain
2:57
okay. I'm not Sandra Jansen. Lay it on us. How do you defend last week, Carter? Or do you defend last week? I'm
Carter
3:03
I'm not defending anything. I totally reject your premise, and I move forward. I'm trying to get Sandra Jansen into the race. I think there's hundreds of people trying to get Sandra Jansen into this race. She's not in the race. It's a different thing. There
Corey
3:16
There are dozens of people who believe that bullshit. The rest of us, though, in adult land, feel like you maybe launched a campaign last week. But that's okay, because I like to keep the scales balanced. So I'm going to launch another PC leadership campaign today. How do you like it? Are
Carter
3:32
Are you going to try and bring back Doug Schweitzer? No, I'm going to
Corey
3:36
to launch Harmon Candola, who is a lawyer up in Edmonton, who is going to be running. He has apparently a sizable delegate base up there. Young guy, plenty of international experience Compelling story, check him out, join his campaign Which I've decided to launch on the This is what we do now Every week, the strategist will launch a PC leadership campaign You
Carter
3:55
You know what, I've met Harman Kandola I
Carter
3:57
I like Harman Kandola But he's no Sandra Jansen
Zain
4:02
Corey, what impact Will this misstep by this unknown strategist have On Sandra Jansen's campaign
Zain
4:12
it's like doing what we do
Corey
4:12
do on our show every week except the perpetrators right here it's tough to put my you know
Corey
4:18
know feet in those shoes because that's a level of screw up you don't normally see um i
Corey
4:25
think at the very least he's going to get a bit of a whipping from the candidate he'll probably have to take a step back from the podcast step
Zain
4:35
mean just literally like
Zain
4:36
back a bit so people can't hear you when you say shit
Corey
4:38
shit that wrecks the campaign yeah
Zain
4:41
so in seriousness though cory and i would actually have a serious conversation on this where you do have you know whether it's this situation which i think is fun to make uh light up because carter's right fucking here uh or
Zain
4:54
or it's another situation how do you kind of recover for something like this and and do you and do you even try right he wants to jump in he Let me get Corey on it, and then we'll get you to— I'll say there's
Corey
5:04
there's not really a need to recover. There's not a need for Donna Kennedy-Glanz to recover, frankly. It's something that happens. It's embarrassing. But frankly, it was embarrassing for the first person. By the time the second person soft launches like that, too, it's just a thing. Apparently, it's the new seasonal color. It's like cerulean. We're all soft launching badly. I mean, Chris Alexander for the Conservatives yesterday essentially soft launched his campaign by saying—
Corey
5:27
heard of it, yeah. It's a really bad field, so I'm going to file my papers to run. That was his campaign launch. This is apparently the season of the bad launch.
Carter
5:36
you want to say? I reject the premise that she's launched. You
Carter
5:39
You are taking this like a
Zain
5:40
trial day. You are legitimately on the stand, it seems like. I like this. This is kind of uncomfortable. You're distracted for like 90% of it looking at your computer. Here's
Carter
5:49
Here's the thing. Well, I'm checking to see if she's launched. She hasn't.
Carter
5:52
I Googled it. There has been no launch. She's not listed. She's not put any.
Carter
5:57
There you go. I'm fine. So
Corey
5:58
So Google Janssen campaign launch. No quotes. Let's just see what happens. Okay,
Carter
6:03
Okay, I'm going to do that. Corey
Zain
6:03
Corey Hogan, you were given the call last week. Let's just say a particular Calgary Herald reporter calls you and says, hey, I listened to this podcast. Really good podcast, by the way. No, he didn't say that part. Okay.
Zain
6:15
he asks you, listen, are you running this campaign for Sandra Jansen? You, of course, in this situation are Stephen Carter. Once again, an unknown, you know, mid-level strategist. What do you say when that reporter calls you? What is your response?
Corey
6:27
response? Oh, I'd probably
Zain
6:28
probably make up some
Corey
6:28
some soft shoe BS like, I'm just trying to get her into the race. It hasn't been launched yet. There's no problem. Hang on, let me talk about it. Wait,
Zain
6:35
so this is interesting. On dissecting Carter's strategy on what he did, do you agree that what he did was probably what you would have done? I mean, let's just assume, yes, you would have not made the initial error. I get it. Okay. Jesus Christ. Let's get on with it. But what did you think of his response? I know he's putting up his hand. We'll get to you in a second. It was fine.
Corey
6:52
fine. It was fine as far as responses go along these lines, which is to say it was very bad. but he didn't make it worse so
Carter
6:59
so i i googled as i was told to jansen campaign launch the top three uh headlines stephen carter signs on to a possible
Carter
7:09
sandra jansen campaign strategist
Carter
7:11
strategist stephen carter's reputation instantly boosts sandra jansen's campaign and jason kenney urges united right as he launches alberta pc's okay
Zain
7:22
okay so that's are you happy with the headline by the way just on a very meta level are you personally knowing what happened are you happy with the headline you got in in that sense or the headlines you've been getting in that regard well
Carter
7:32
well okay this isn't about my headlines no that's okay so interesting yeah i mean this is about uh
Carter
7:40
when when do you launch a campaign well you launch it why do you launch a campaign right
Carter
7:43
right you you launch a campaign because you want people to be to sign on you you know immediately
Carter
7:49
right at the forefront right
Carter
7:50
right right or you you launch a campaign late because you want to be be dragged in right but people need to be talking about you you
Carter
7:59
need to be in the conversation
Carter
8:01
that's why you launch a campaign period like
Carter
8:03
like however you launch it whatever people
Carter
8:05
people are talking about standard
Zain
8:09
you're happy with that you're
Zain
8:10
you're fine with that well
Carter
8:11
well i mean my personal happiness is never has never really happened that's why i hang out with you too the
Carter
8:17
i hang out with you too because i uh i'm
Carter
8:19
i'm not happy person let's
Zain
8:20
let's just say this you you are on the the other side of of uh the standard jansen came here donna katie glanz or someone else waiting there's a move like this now having two people in a matter of two weeks launch kind of move you to launch as well do you hold on what's your strategy right now if you're one of the candidates waiting on the sidelines we also had another one i should mention or potential one doug schweitzer saying he's not going to go for it what are you doing right now if you're someone waiting on the sidelines um looking to launch well
Corey
8:45
well there's two schools of thought maybe we should unpack both Both of them. One is like, oh, my God, all of these trains are leaving the station. We better get ours going now, too. People are going to start making decisions between candidates. And if I'm not a choice for them, they're going to commit. And that's that's over for us. We're not going to be able to launch. The other school of thought is this
Corey
9:04
this is the pack now, you know, and you don't want to be lost in the pack. So maybe if you have the expectation, others are going to follow the lead and I'll jump in. You sit back a bit and you launch your campaign afterwards. Afterwards, maybe, in particular, you take that approach if you feel that the field is light, right? And you want to get people to a point where they're feeling the field is wanting, and then you jump in as, you know, the hero from afar, somebody who's going to come in from out of town and save everything. Carter, I mean, I don't want to get too
Zain
9:33
too meta into this, but let's just, you know, top line it a little bit more academically. Any more meta? You
Carter
9:37
You don't want to get any more meta on this? That's true. Okay, okay.
Zain
9:39
You've always been a fan of jumping in late. Is that fair to say? And always kind of coming from behind in particular races. I
Carter
9:46
I don't know. I don't know. Alison Redford was in early. Nenshi was in
Carter
9:50
And Nenshi was in in April. So you're a fan of announcing early? No, I'm a fan of analyzing what needs to happen and what needs to happen. Nenshi needed to get in when he got in because there was no conversation about Nenshi.
Corey
10:02
I'm sorry. Before you go on about Nenshi, I should point out that according to David Klamenhagga's blog, let's find a quote. Quote, there are certainly those in the Nenshi campaign who say Carter played only a minor role in that effort. So is this is this actually something we can validate as as the opinions of the Nenshi campaign? By the way, for the listeners out there, he looks like his head is about to explode.
Zain
10:26
Let's just let him respond.
Carter
10:29
I'm so angry. I
Carter
10:32
don't want to be angry about that. But here there is a saying that,
Zain
10:36
that, by the way, I
Carter
10:37
I don't know. But here's the reality of any successful campaign. Any successful campaign, everybody ran it. Everybody was integral. Everybody made things happen. Every failed campaign, there's one person. Yeah. Everyone fucking walks away. Everybody walks away. And I can't remember the quote. Corey remembers it. Victory has a
Corey
10:55
a thousand fathers, defeats an orphan. Exactly.
Carter
10:57
Exactly. Thank you, Corey. I set you up for that. But that
Carter
11:03
that bothers me. I don't want it to bother me. Right? I want, because every time you do a campaign, I mean, what I should respond, my politically correct best answer is
Carter
11:14
that that campaign had 1,000 volunteers.
Carter
11:18
The campaign would never have taken off without each of those volunteers doing exactly what they did. I love telling the story of Peter Oliver, who came up with the chalk idea. And he asked Chima and I, you know, can you do this? And we said, what do you need? It's like 200 bucks and 200 people. And
Carter
11:37
we send out the email, super secret, late
Carter
11:40
at night, everybody met at 10 o'clock at a campaign headquarters we never used.
Carter
11:45
It was a fun thing, and we couldn't have done it without Peter Oliver.
Corey
11:49
Who has, by the way, become one of the better campaign managers in this city with a pretty good track record.
Carter
11:55
No, he's spectacular. He starts off, and
Carter
12:00
and the reason is he thinks outside the box, and he is able to do things that are really interesting.
Carter
12:07
that's so yeah i mean you
Carter
12:09
you know did i play a role in that i forgot that it was happening right
Carter
12:12
right like i forgot that it was going on because i was dealing with other stuff so could i you know was i everything of course not yeah
Carter
12:21
but there was a team of six people at the beginning the
Carter
12:25
the team of six people knows who they are right
Carter
12:29
david kleimanhaga wasn't at that meeting well
Corey
12:32
well i'll tell you this in in your defense events um i
Corey
12:35
i remember meeting with you i've told this story where you laid out the strategy very early in the summer now it's possible brian sing just sent you to tell me the strategy oh okay
Carter
12:44
okay yep that's possible i
Corey
12:46
i have a strong suspicion you were involved at uh at some level along the way there carter
Zain
12:51
carter look back to back to the original the original question right you are you
Zain
12:55
you so you are your answer here is that it's really candidate dependent on when they need to get in based on on their profile, and how much they're in the conversation. So is there, in your mind, a generic rule as it relates to this election as to when the right point of entry is in your mind, or no? No,
Carter
13:11
No, because I think, for example,
Carter
13:15
came in early, ridiculously early. There would have been a very,
Carter
13:19
very, very solid argument for Jason Kenney to be dragged in. In fact, if I was to play strategist for Kenney, which is like playing strategist for trump for me but um i
Carter
13:32
i think that you could have made a case that you know income
Carter
13:35
income these people that are are the names that aren't fairly well known right so jansen and schweitzer and starkey and candola and whoever else donna kennedy glanz right and and the general population the people in the big towers are going oh
Carter
13:52
oh my god these people can't beat the ndp right because none of these people are people i
Carter
13:58
or well i mean alice redford wasn't a household yeah right like and so ed stellmack who the hell's ed stellmack joe who right the reality is that we don't pay attention enough to know who these leaders are potential leaders leaders are made through these processes they don't begin the process as the leader that
Carter
14:15
that that's a fundamental right so jason
Carter
14:18
jason kenney could have come to november the 10th and
Carter
14:21
and been dragged into of this race yeah and
Carter
14:23
and oh my god jason if you're not there what are we going to do who amongst this crew will defeat the hated ndp and
Carter
14:31
and he could have been dragged in that would have been i think a far more successful for him
Zain
14:35
him and based on who he was because
Carter
14:36
because of who he is now he could have started commenting about this yeah
Zain
14:40
ago he could have started throwing stones
Carter
14:41
stones he could have started saying you know what i think we need why aren't these candidates talking about a united right very
Zain
14:48
very interesting cory i want to pick up on on that in a second but there's a comment that carter made that i just i have to pick up on which is the whole concept of leaders being made during a race and and what do you do you agree with that philosophy i mean uh and i carter want to go back to in a second and understanding where you get it from but what do you make of that sort of philosophy as it as it relates to a leadership campaign i
Corey
15:11
i don't know if i 100 buy into it our Our current prime minister was born literally into the house that the prime minister lives in. Oh,
Corey
15:18
But I think as a general rule, you look like a leader when you're a leader, and people can imagine you as a leader when you've led. And that's why we sometimes have a challenge putting people into the job who have never been in the job. That's why there's an incumbency advantage in many ways. But there
Corey
15:37
is no question that there have been an awful lot of leaders, particularly, I think, at the provincial level, where you tend not to get the superstar, rock star with the political pedigree behind them, who
Corey
15:48
who seem to come out of nowhere.
Corey
15:50
But in reality, it
Corey
15:52
it only seems that way because you've never heard of them before, and they've been doing things at different levels and in different scales.
Corey
16:01
nobody thought very much of Ed Stelmack. Right. Right. Nobody thought very much of Alison Redford. Both won, by the way.
Corey
16:08
People they thought really highly of, Jim Prentiss, lost. Sometimes you can cloud yourself by the celebrity thinking this is your savior. It happened with Michael Ignatyev as well. We've heard of Michael Ignatyev, international intellectual. He'll save the Liberal Party. but the challenge is that can paper over some real deficiencies i often think that parties are better off going with the person who hits the singles and the doubles than the you know then the big signing the person who comes at bat and the crowd goes wild and is going to hit a few home runs uh because they're going to strike out a lot too right and that's the big risk of that approach
Zain
16:42
carter to to the point of other candidates in a race so if you're some of the other candidates right now you've got a couple entering in let's say the ones that are already in kenny donna what are you responding to with each each additional entrant now that let's say sandra's unofficially in the race and she maybe may or not be another person comes in what is your mo to their entry is there any action you need to do is there anything any offense you need to play as soon as they come in what are you kind of gearing up for as more and more people start entering a race well
Carter
17:11
well cory talked about this last week right where you have to pick up um
Carter
17:14
um an enemy right there There has to be kind of one person that you're against, but you can't be against everybody, right? So if you're running against everybody, then no one's going to come to you later, right? A leadership is kind of a really weird thing, a team sport, right?
Carter
17:34
right? So you've got a team-building capacity and component. With the other campaigns
Carter
17:39
and candidates, yeah. So Corey launched Harman Kandola's campaign today, so we'll pick on Harman Kandola, right? Right. So if, you know, like I'm not writing a single negative line about Harman Kandola. Right.
Carter
17:53
Well, I mean, first, I'm not going to build him up to
Carter
17:55
make him look more real than he is. He is a
Carter
17:58
a capable candidate who is going to have solid regional support.
Carter
18:04
Oh, my God. Damning by faint praise. Right. Like he's he's and he really is a fantastic guy. He's a smart guy. He builds teams. He's got people who really like him. right um but
Carter
18:17
let's say he's above sandra jansen at the convention well i won't i wouldn't want to have picked on him the whole time and
Carter
18:24
and then sandra has to move to him right or conversely
Carter
18:28
sandra's above him right
Carter
18:29
and now we have to and
Zain
18:31
and she's antagonized him and the supporters
Carter
18:33
supporters to the point
Carter
18:33
you gotta you gotta go over and say hey you remember all that shit i said about you
Zain
18:39
yeah right and and let's make up with the 20 minutes we have i
Carter
18:43
i think this is really It's really an interesting challenge. Like, for example, David Orchard running in 2003 against McKay and Prentice and Bryson and I'm forgetting a couple of others. Oh, Craig Chandler.
Carter
18:56
Yeah. How did I miss Craig Chandler?
Carter
18:58
He didn't have a delegate. But he got up and did a speech and then threw his support to Jim Prentice at that. And it was like we were sitting back there as Jim Prentice's team going, no, throw to Bryson. Throw to Bryson.
Carter
19:09
Didn't happen that way. Oh, that's funny. Anyways, I digress.
Carter
19:14
you know orchard was this orchard
Carter
19:17
orchard wasn't a pc right right he was an outsider nobody knew how to deal with him so yeah right
Carter
19:23
right so when it came time for him to choose between prentice and mckay there was no way that anybody could predict his
Carter
19:30
his choice and he
Carter
19:32
he chose mckay and and things kind of went from there but um i
Carter
19:37
i i i just find like
Carter
19:39
like you have to have a relationship you can't find yourself self at the convention floor going,
Carter
19:43
I don't know where the hell he's going to go. Right.
Zain
19:46
what's going to move where my friends are at. You
Carter
19:50
built those relationships at a delegate level and at a campaign level. Corey,
Zain
19:54
Corey, we talked about this last week, Carter's right. You talked about the whole notion of ensuring that you are, how do you become that compromise candidate? Let's end this segment on understanding maybe what some of the other ground rules are for a leadership contest, where what else do you kind of need to do in order to prepare yourself yourself best for that convention floor?
Corey
20:14
Yeah, I think a lot of people, this
Corey
20:16
this convention in particular, are going to be a bit surprised. The roll-up is so vitally important, and when you're there on the convention, you need to have a strong whip system. You need to be the first person that the losing candidate, you know, the candidate's delegates hears from. You need to make sure they feel comfortable in the team. You should have started that groundwork ahead of time. Every single delegate should be paired to one of your delegates, and there should be call-outs done, And the logistics of some of that stuff and rolling that up to your central team so they know exactly where they stand on each ballot and making sure that, for example, if somebody loses, even though they would have come to you, they're just so demoralized, they go home or they don't vote. And that happens, guys. That happens a lot. Leakage. Yeah.
Corey
20:56
You need to have strategies to prepare for that. And leakage, by the way, I think is one of the things that people most sort of dismiss because you may leak over the course of this 100 delegates. Let's say it's 100 delegates. Right. A hundred delegates is a lot of fucking delegates, and people sort of underestimate just how much that can swing an effort. And there'll be ridings in Calgary and Edmonton, for example, where there will be thousands of people duking it out for one or two delegate spots. And they'll put the resources into that, and they'll ignore the leakage. So they are going to need to have each of these campaigns a very, very strong convention chair, a very, very strong chief whip. Those people are going to have to work hand in glove. You're going to need to understand exactly where you are at every moment, the amount of time between ballots. vitally important you have to have the ability to roll through your lists between ballots if you don't have those resources you are capital f-u-c-k fucked and this is all logistics that you just do not need to deal with when you have two weeks between ballots where people have to show up and just vote that's right any one of those positions yeah i mean
Zain
21:55
mean carter you're recruiting for these positions today if you're one of these campaigns you've got that if anybody
Carter
22:00
wants to be these
Carter
22:00
people you know give me a call no
Carter
22:02
no i mean you're constantly recruiting because the this This, the volunteer levels on a delegated convention are different than, so no one's done this in Alberta for 30 years. It's been a while,
Zain
22:15
while, long time. Yeah.
Zain
22:16
So there's not muscle memory built into something like this.
Carter
22:19
this. No. And, and I mean, we, we walked away from it. We've, you know, even the conventions
Carter
22:25
conventions that were done in the past, the 2003 PC leadership, you have to remember that that was a fairly low point in the PC ebb, right?
Carter
22:33
right? It's, it was not, it didn't have the big machinery. that's required to run these types of campaigns. This, to me, is, and I love delegated conventions. I may have mentioned it a few times. Once or twice,
Carter
22:44
Because what Corey is talking about is foundationally a relationship management system, right? So you are managing relationships. You are building relationships one person at a time with you and your team.
Carter
22:57
And those relationships don't go away.
Carter
23:00
Those relationships, people will remember how
Carter
23:02
how they were crying, you know, when their guy lost. Yeah.
Carter
23:06
they were crying, literally slumped on the floor. And
Carter
23:09
And you came and literally picked them up.
Carter
23:13
So this human emotional component
Corey
23:15
component is massive in this. Emotions run really high, especially when you start getting to the last ballots and people who legitimately thought they were going to win, lose. People react in very funny ways in that fashion. Another free tip for all of the campaigns out there when you're talking about delegates. When you do have your final slates of delegates, find
Corey
23:34
find out who each of your delegates know. Send them the entire list of delegates. Say, who do you know? How well do you know them? Put this metric together. Don't make your whip system so rigid as to be based on geography. Really understand who has the best ability to pull somebody over. It makes all the difference in the world. One or two delegates can swing these things. Let's not forget in 2006 on the first ballot for the Liberals, Stéphane Dion was ahead by two votes over
Carter
24:00
Jim Prentice beat Scott Bryson by two votes. Right.
Carter
24:03
Otherwise, it was Jim Prentice dropping off the ballot, not Scott Bryson.
Carter
24:08
So, I mean, all of this will boil down to one, two, five people.
Carter
24:14
So how do you manage at that micro level the
Carter
24:19
the whole way through? This is not a campaign about 120
Carter
24:22
120,000 Albertans who are going to vote on a PC leadership like Dinning. Right.
Carter
24:26
This is a campaign of 1,200 people. that
Carter
24:31
that are known to you that
Carter
24:34
that you must manage cory
Zain
24:36
cory finishes off on the segment this
Corey
24:37
this uh a delegated convention is air war only until you vote for the delegates and then it is pure ground war it is pure relationships it's going out there making those connections on a very human level you've essentially turned the electorate into a couple thousand people and
Corey
24:53
and that is a very different election than an electorate of four million people right
Corey
24:57
and all of the the campaigns are going to have some struggles adjusting to that because there's just not enough people who have run leadership campaigns in that nature in this province okay
Zain
25:06
okay we will leave that segment there tune in next week when we soft launch another campaign um who will be next at a certain point at a certain point it might
Zain
25:15
stark i think next week oh shit we just did
Zain
25:18
no we did two this week uh
Zain
25:20
uh we might just grab a phone book from here on and who the fuck knows okay let's move it on to our next segment our next segment in the room and on On the air. Guys, this is what I want you to do. Put on your hats as federal liberal communication strategists. You're inside the PMO, and I'm going to give you five scenarios or five recent situations that the liberals have had to deal with. The first part of the conversation is what you say in the room, right? In total secrecy with all the other senior staff, what you talk about amongst each other, how did it actually go? Is this actually a big fuck up? Is this a big deal? and then the second part of the conversation what are the lines that you give to the media how are you spinning this going forward does that make sense yeah okay first scenario justin trudeau making his let's just call it again the soft launch for the plea for a security council seat he comes back from it you guys are in the pmo as the two senior communications folks what's the discussion like with trudeau jerry butz everyone in the room about justin trudeau going to the the un cory kick us off i think
Corey
26:20
think that we talk about maybe how things could have been tightened up and been more artful but at the end of the day i'm not very worried about it if i'm them i'm pretty confident that we are going to get that seat and it's just a question of making sure that we don't turn this gaffe into an international gaffe a national gaffe is fine we're after a security council seat that's a global position an international gaffe is not nobody's talking about this globally carter what do you think you're you're cory
Zain
26:46
comment what are Are you chiming in?
Carter
26:47
Yeah, I mean, I'm probably going to remain relatively quiet in this meeting because there's not –
Carter
26:52
I don't think there's a changed strategy necessarily that we needed to do. I think that we did what we needed to do. It's been done, and now we leave it. I
Corey
27:00
I was fairly certain Carter was going to say that he'd tell Trudeau just to say that he was wanting to get Canada into the Security Council discussion, but that he was not actually launching Canada's bid for
Carter
27:13
seat. It's going to go on for a while, right? Oh, forever.
Zain
27:14
For fucking forever. Carter, back to you. So that's the discussion in the room, on air, to the media, to the press, to everyone else at broad. What's the liberal lines around the Trudeau plea for a Security Council seat?
Carter
27:27
You're reading too much into this.
Carter
27:29
Just, you know, we're doing what we need to do. We're improving Canada's presence in the world. The term Canada is back isn't
Carter
27:40
isn't just jargon for us. We want to put Canada at the forefront of the world discussion. got to shut it. Corey?
Corey
27:45
Corey? Of course we wanted a Security Council seat. Of course we're going to be going for one. This is not a story. Every nation knows that. We tried to get on the Security Council last time. We weren't able to do so. Part of the reason why we were not able to do so is because the previous government was not reaching out to our allies and friends within the United Nations. This is how diplomacy happens. It doesn't happen overnight. We need to start talking about these things. Canada is back.
Zain
28:10
You're back in the room. You're looking at your next agenda item and And it's about Minister Maryam Monsef. Turns out that she was, in fact, born in Iran and not Afghanistan, as was discovered by the Globe and Mail today. The whole Afghanistan thing has been a very, I guess, germane part of her personal narrative and her political narrative. What's the conversation like in the room, Corey?
Carter
28:30
In the room? In the room.
Zain
28:32
room. In the room. Is it like,
Corey
28:33
like, is this a fuck up? Oh, my God. Do we have to deal with it? What's the conversation
Zain
28:36
conversation like in the room? I think it's like, why?
Corey
28:37
why? Why did we not know this? Like, this is the stupidest fucking thing ever. this has become a problem for no reason not at all like no
Carter
28:45
no reason at all it's like there's no difference yeah like nobody gave
Corey
28:49
gave a shit until it turned out it looked like you were lying about it now
Carter
28:52
now you've lied and so i'm standing in the room saying bring me a head okay
Carter
28:57
okay bring me a head i want to know who began this lie who allowed it to propagate it was her mother then she's getting a shit kicking from me and
Carter
29:07
and no it wasn't just her mother i don't think that
Corey
29:10
that i would even be looking I would mostly be around the table being like, guys, this is the stupidest thing we're going to have to deal with all month. This is the
Zain
29:17
the dumbest thing possible. And to expand on it a bit more in terms of context, she was born in Iran. She has Afghani citizenship. Her mom is from Afghanistan. All this sort of stuff checks out. It's not like she was trying to pull one over on us, it
Zain
29:30
it seems. I mean, this is the pull on over on
Zain
29:33
us. Like we would
Corey
29:33
would have reacted very differently
Zain
29:34
differently as a nation.
Corey
29:35
nation. No, I mean,
Corey
29:36
what makes it so goddamn stupid.
Zain
29:37
stupid. It wasn't an issue until it's an issue situation.
Corey
29:40
Exactly. Like if this you could rewrite all of Canadian history to this moment and change one fact that we knew she was born in Iran and not Afghanistan and people absolutely zero things would be different. No votes would have changed. Nothing would
Zain
29:52
So so that's the discussion in the room. Self-inflicted injury. Carter, you have to go talk to the media about this or go talk to the general public. What are you saying?
Carter
30:02
I'm just saying, you know what? It makes no difference.
Zain
30:05
You're being that blunt about it. It
Carter
30:06
It makes no difference. this is you know this is apologizing
Zain
30:08
apologizing uh yeah she's
Carter
30:10
she's apologizing she's apologizing i'm not apologizing she's apologizing because i'm not sure why or how it gets to this stage right what difference does it make and i think that you just go out and say it makes no difference um this is a no thing and we're and we leave it cory
Zain
30:26
cory if what are you doing is is there is there a question around her credibility going forward on this how are you spinning
Corey
30:31
spinning this if there's one nation that understands where you're born is not who you are it's canada right we're we come from all different places we take different paths to this nation and we are not defined by where we happen to have been when we plopped out of our mothers okay and marion moncef deserves the exact same treatment as the rest of us would i was born in ottawa i'm not an ottawan right i'm not and i have never associated with that city my dad just happened to be passing through when i was born in
Corey
31:01
Miriam Monsef is not an Iranian in that she identifies as an Afghan and that is just fine and why are we even talking about this back
Zain
31:09
back to the PMO Stephen Carter you see a report from the Huffington Post that says your government's first nine months have been the least productive in terms of bills passed in decades the Liberals passed only 10 bills in the first nine months as compared to the Conservatives 18 and as compared to not a high watermark point but a pretty high point of 36 by paul martin this report lands on your desk you're like oh fuck
Zain
31:33
what is the discussion in the room i'm going to carter first i know cory you want to chime in carter what's your what's your initial take being like fuck we just saw this news article why
Carter
31:40
why does this even matter who who did this um okay how are we going to manage it here's how i suggest we manage it let's ignore the fucking thing no one wants no canadian wants us to do To put in more legislation, right? This is about an attitudinal shift. This is about regulation shift. This is about we have done a tremendous amount to make this feel different. We just haven't had to do it through legislation. And if you're going to count bills as progress, if you're going to count laws and more and more regulation as progress, then you've got the wrong metric. And that's what I'm going to say in the room. You're saying in the room. And then I'm going to say the exact same thing out of the room.
Zain
32:19
So your message is the same. It's blunt. bunt it's it's telling people both in and out that the metric they're using is wrong cory what do you what is your take in the room so imagine
Corey
32:26
imagine i'm the guy in the room who's going to tell them the truth on this and this look she has both a strong point and missed the fucking point at the same time carter is right it's not about the number of bills you pass you could pass one omnibus bill that totally upends the entire nation from feet to head right that's it's not a question of the volume of bills that's so absolutely stupid as far as metrics go and
Corey
32:48
and and i mean if you're going to talk about paul martin high watermark paul martin i'm air quoting this no i hear you nobody felt that that was like a big activist first term
Corey
32:57
which is why i
Zain
32:58
i put it yeah
Corey
32:58
yeah it's just like this is a dumb metric through which we're going to measure change but that said
Corey
33:04
she's got a fucking point what has this government done in the past nine months why have these things not moved forward faster it does not make any sense to me that this much political capital is being sat on and frittered away and if i'm in the room i'm saying that and And I'm starting to get angry about it because ultimately this becomes a narrative, this becomes a problem, and there's truth to it. The reason why it will stick, the reason why you can't just dismiss it based on the numbers is because Canadians feel there is truth to it. So
Zain
33:30
So you actually give a pretty harsh criticism of your government or your
Zain
33:36
teams. I mean, in
Corey
33:37
in my opinion, how can you not? This was a government that was brought in. Let's be clear on this. This is not a government that was brought in to stay the course. This was a government brought in on a major change mandate, perhaps the largest change mandate in current Canadian history.
Corey
33:53
And they haven't done anything. I mean, they've essentially been like Harper Light. And yeah, I'm sorry, some liberals will not like to hear that. But they haven't rolled back the last eight years of conservative government, not even fucking close. They haven't even rolled back the last year of conservative government. And we're sitting there applauding our prime minister for his soundbites at the U.N. and for showing up shirtless with great abs and nothing is getting done.
Zain
34:18
Go do something. So
Zain
34:19
So half of your job is getting paid to be a truth teller in that room. The other half is to go out and talk to the media about it. What are you? What's the second part? Yeah, I go out there and I say, listen, you don't measure it based
Corey
34:29
metric. I make the same argument.
Carter
34:31
argument. You know what I like about your in the room advice? advice it's like you're not part of the team at all i like
Zain
34:39
is really interesting steven carter you have been chief of staff have you had moments where you've had that guy in quotes in the room just always not not always no no no but when it relates to moments like this where people are looking at the solution and you have one person no offense cory who's actually saying our pathway is what would actually is the issue so this there's got a lot of merit to it how is is that usually handled in the room if you are let's say chief of staff oh
Carter
35:05
oh man i had uh people came in all the time and tell us how wrong we were um
Carter
35:09
um all the time i mean hell i had a deputy
Carter
35:14
deputy chief of staff that came in all the time and said we're not doing enough we're not doing enough and it's like dude we're getting killed we're going too fast you know on on everything so at some point you have you you do have these major disagreements between uh staffers who believe certain things and and staffers who believe other things uh even within caucus right you have sure oh my god massive fights about how fast should we going what are the priorities we should be bringing um these are really difficult conversations and generally speaking there's at least one cory hogan which is
Carter
35:47
is really just a synonym for asshole uh who is pushing back or pushing to go further or something on every initiative that you're doing well
Corey
35:57
well can i make an argument that that you need somebody like that in the room. They can't become obstructionist, but if you have a bunch of people who all believe the same thing and they're the only ones who are talking and they're the only ones making the decisions, you're never going to get the tension where these ideas are stress tested, where you're honestly
Corey
36:11
honestly asking yourself, are we doing enough? You'll just start patting yourselves on the back and saying, don't you think we looked great on the cover of Esquire?
Zain
36:21
Back in the room. Okay, this one will get a little bit awkward because you're in the room with the Chief of Staff and the Principal Secretary And the Globe and Mail has published that their moving expenses were some $200,000.
Zain
36:33
Issue? Non-issue? What are you saying in the room? And the media are on you about this. The Conservatives have been on you for about a week on this issue. What are you saying in the room with those people present?
Corey
36:45
I mean, there's an optics question. But unless we want all of our senior political staffers to come from the Ottawa area and not have the ability to move and become part of the national government from other parts of the nation, there are going to be costs incurred with moving. That's just the reality of things. These are people who have lived in the Toronto market, have lived in the Vancouver market, wherever market you want to pick. But the fact of the matter is when you sell a million dollar house before the end of your mortgage, there are significant costs incurred to that. And if we're just going to lock people down, if they're unfortunate enough to be in the first two years of their term, then
Corey
37:21
then we are not going to get the best government and ultimately that is a big problem i think we just have to accept in the private sector moving expenses are covered routinely and they're covered generously and it's because there's an understanding it is a one-time cost for a long-term benefit and i understand all that and when i'm talking to them in the room this is a weird situation zane and that i think i'm more sympathetic in the room because i absolutely get it i think it's It's absolutely
Corey
37:45
stupid that we would sort of suggest that they have to foot the bill to take a job in a government when we live in a democracy where senior staff roll over. I don't think anybody seriously suggests they should have just kept the conservatives in the job because there's no moving costs involved in that. Right. I mean, or that we just pick the people who live within 100 kilometers of Ottawa or they say, listen, you're going to have to eat that $200,000 yourself. Yeah, you're the best person for the job, but we just don't want to do it. Those are all worse options than what happened, which was the government foot the bill to move senior people across
Corey
38:17
across the nation to become part of our national government.
Zain
38:20
government. Why are you more sympathetic in the room?
Corey
38:22
Because ultimately, as I say that, I realize that is not going to carry too much water outside. I
Zain
38:27
I figured as much, yes.
Zain
38:29
So what's your public
Zain
38:29
public response look like? My public
Corey
38:30
public response is, yeah, we'll certainly review our policies around expenses. This was all done for the best of intentions, but we understand why Canadians may be uncomfortable about this. and we're a government that cares about Canadians' dollars. So we'll look at it. But none of the people who you're talking about acted improperly. They all acted based on the policies of the day. And we'll take a second look and we'll see whether this makes sense. But that said, we want to make sure the national government continues to be a national government, not a government of Ottawa. Carter,
Zain
38:59
in the room and then what you say in public.
Carter
39:05
In the room at this particular point, I'm trying to figure out if there's any way we can back away from some of this. $80,000 and $120,000 is real big dollars, right? I don't know if anybody remembers. I was at one point on the wrong end of a $130,000 thing. I don't remember at
Zain
39:20
at all. Was there a tweet or something? I don't know. I
Carter
39:22
I can't remember. I made that frame up. Who remembers these things?
Zain
39:26
I just remember I made you buy lunch for a very long time.
Carter
39:29
Corey is saying something is right. For my world, I signed a contract. The
Carter
39:35
The contract said that if this happened at any point. I mean, this is what I got, right?
Carter
39:40
You know, if I was negotiating a contract with the government, I'd say to them, you know, like, in fact, and I did. I needed a place to live in Edmonton. I wasn't going to sell my place in Calgary, so I needed a place to live in Edmonton. They gave me an allowance to have a place in Edmonton. Other people in negotiations with the government said, I want to keep my place in Toronto.
Carter
40:00
And, okay, well, what do you need? What do you need to join us because we think you're talented? Right. And corporations do this all the time. Now, people will say corporations never pay $120,000 in moving expenses. They don't pay $120,000 in moving expenses. They pay $10,000 in moving expenses, and they pay a $200,000 signing bonus to keep you in the job for 200, you know, or they pay. I mean, this town, we've seen people be moved from this town lots, right? All the time. They're moved to another city. And they're compensated for their house. They're compensated for the loss of, you know, if they sell at a loss. If they sell it at a profit, they're compensated for fees. Legal costs, et
Zain
40:39
et cetera. All of
Carter
40:40
of which is to say government isn't private business.
Carter
40:43
So I'm in the room trying to say how do we back away from this in some way? You're
Zain
40:46
You're actually trying to retreat because you think this could be more damaging than Corey does, if I'm not mistaken.
Carter
40:51
I do. Well, I think that the problem is when
Carter
40:54
when you look at how much they made on their houses. There was a profit made.
Carter
40:57
made. And so that detail coming out. If you'd lost money on your house, I don't think you should lose money on your house, Zane, to go and move to work in Edmonton. or to work in Edmonton or Ottawa. You shouldn't lose money. You know, we're sitting in your house now. That's a new studio that we're in. Thanks for constructing it. Love the egg cartons on the walls. Really nice.
Zain
41:16
Listen, this is a paper mache. It's a paper mache
Carter
41:19
mache house. But, you know, if you were to take a job in Ottawa tomorrow, I don't want you to have to lose money on this. Right.
Carter
41:24
I don't think that you should have to lose money to go and be a member of the public service. I also don't think you should make a lot of money on this. Right? I don't think you should have – that you should make money, $400
Carter
41:34
$400,000, $500,000, $600,000 to go make a member of the public service. So I'm kind of torn on this, and I think we have to back away from it. So you're trying
Zain
41:41
trying to back away in the room. What are you saying publicly, knowing that you don't have – you have literally minutes between the in-room conversation and then you having to go out and speak about it? I
Carter
41:48
I think what we've found is a hole in the policy. We're going to need to go back and look at the policy.
Zain
41:52
That's pretty much your take
Zain
41:56
Corey, anything to add on that to respond to Carter? You're fine with what he thinks the ramifications could be versus you? I don't want to kind of incite something, but I'm curious. I
Corey
42:05
I mean, we don't know enough about the individual financial circumstances. There was a negotiation. I'm sure that happened at one point. Maybe they're great negotiators. I don't mind those great negotiators in government. I
Corey
42:16
I get the optics of it being very difficult and challenging. But Stephen's right. This happens all the time in the business world under different names. I don't know that Canadians would be wild about having signing bonuses for staff, for political staff, public servants, all of that. But maybe
Corey
42:33
maybe it's a question of linguistics. Maybe the policy needs to be reviewed holistically about compensation. There are ways that you can back out of this going forward, but not necessarily welch
Corey
42:43
welch on your contracts in reverse. Okay,
Zain
42:47
You are sitting in your office doing your thing, whatever you guys would be doing when it's a downtime for two seconds. You're eating your lunch at your desk. I just imagine the two of you in front of Windows computers doing that. Two of your sandwich,
Zain
42:58
you look and you see self-described Alberta roughneck Bernard Hancock giving what I would call a presser and advocating
Zain
43:09
advocating for a petition on behalf of Canada's energy industry.
Zain
43:15
You spit out your ham and cheese sandwich and you're like, what the fuck? and
Zain
43:19
you have a meeting in 30 minutes with with your senior staff what are you talking uh and what are what are you saying in the room as you see this going on we're doing this for the liberals we're doing you you're still with the government you're doing this for the liberals and then this issue is interesting so i want to get a few levels deep but we'll do the initial question first what are you saying in the room for the liberals as you see this going on what's
Zain
43:39
what's the initial reaction carter i'll go with you first thank
Carter
43:42
thank god we're competing against these idiots is the first thing i say in the room we
Carter
43:46
we don't have to do anything because we're not going to to get in the way of uh the opposition when they're shooting themselves in the foot and
Carter
43:53
and i will unpack why they're shooting themselves in the foot and i will do so delicately because um the problem with this is that a lot of people in this market believe that what bernard the roughneck you
Zain
44:06
you mean alberta when you
Zain
44:07
this market yeah what
Carter
44:08
what bernard the roughneck said is 100 true even the cbc yesterday people are eating this up
Zain
44:13
up there's this is this is dividing but people on on let's just just say one side of the spectrum are really eating this up i looked
Carter
44:21
looked at the the imagery right
Carter
44:23
right so our job is to create imagery right when we're doing politics uh most a lot of people will see this and not necessarily turn the sound on a lot of people won't hear the message a lot of people won't listen to the words that he says when
Carter
44:36
when you look at that image it
Carter
44:39
was a clown he
Carter
44:41
he was a clown and i'm sorry i like his message i think that he's right i think we need pipelines i think we need them now i think that we drag in our feeders wrong but he looked like
Carter
44:51
like a clown he looked like a bad stereotype and i would have i mean i can't believe the conservatives brought him in on this it doesn't win us a single fucking vote on the issue outside of the conservatives
Carter
45:04
saying yeah i mean so great this is another opportunity where we as an oil and gas industry continue to play to our weakness which is that we think everybody thinks like us if they thought like us they'd be supporting this this is the so
Carter
45:18
just simply needs to ignore it and let it go i
Zain
45:22
want to get into that in a second here cory you're in the room you see this happening carter's in the room saying this is great we don't have to do shit all these people are idiots is that also your mindset as as a communication strategist with the pmo i
Corey
45:35
i think that i i'm looking at it i'm like what in the hell is this he's at parliament he's you know the clown is apt the metaphor for the clown he's he's wearing a costume he hasn't worked and
Zain
45:44
and to give people
Corey
45:45
a little bit more description
Corey
45:46
is a guy who looks
Zain
45:48
like he literally just came off of like an oil rig he's dirty he's got his helmet on he's yeah
Zain
45:52
everywhere not just a plane from vancouver where he lives
Corey
45:55
lives he doesn't live in alberta and uh there's some staging you're telling me oh my god but it was like the most clownish staging you could possibly imagine and you you do want to say that i think around the table you're probably making fun of the guy a lot being like what and And, you know, to Stephen's point, who are these guys? Why do they think this will help them? This is utterly pointless. But I don't think you take a lot of joy in it because ultimately, as much as the Conservatives are pretending that the Liberals are so opposed to these pipelines, the reality is the
Corey
46:22
the Liberals want a pipeline as well. You know, they have some challenges and they have internal pressures about that. But if you were to talk to the senior staff, perhaps with the exception of Jerry Butts, you'd find that, yeah, we understand this is a lot of money for Canada and we'd like to have one.
Corey
46:37
it's just like when you go out there though yeah
Zain
46:41
yeah what are you saying in public you can't mock
Corey
46:42
mock the guy i mean as much as he's mockable and as much as it's just a total farce that we have this vancouverite pretending to be an albertan pretending to be a roughneck who just got off the rigs it's
Corey
46:53
it's so dumb listen but you can't look insensitive yeah
Carter
46:55
yeah i mean what are you saying well do you know what i'm gonna say publicly what i've said publicly as a human being
Zain
47:04
Your recommendation in the room is that we just let this go. Let
Carter
47:07
Let it go. I mean, I don't think the general population is going to be in love with Bernard the Roughneck, except for the people who want to be in love with Bernard the Roughneck. I listened to them on the CBC this morning. They have their point of view, and they love him, because he's saying what they think has never been said. It's always been said, but the problem is that people aren't listening outside of Alberta. This is the problem with the oil and gas industry in Alberta. They say things that they believe. They don't say things that other people want to hear.
Carter
47:33
Fundamental thing in politics. If someone doesn't believe it, they're never going to believe it.
Zain
47:38
Corey, let's expand the scope on this particular question. Give me, in terms of what you would understand, what the conservative mindset here could be. What do you think they were thinking? Did you think they were just experimenting with a different messenger and the same message, hopefully expanding the scope of people? Was this to rally the base? What do you think they were thinking when they put the green light on this and said yes to this?
Corey
47:59
Well, I continue to be a little confused as to the conservative strategy on pipelines. It's as though they think the election is next week, next month. It's not even next year. We're talking about 2019, and they're taking
Corey
48:12
taking a very high-risk approach to this here. They're raising the stakes on this pipeline themselves, and if the liberals are able to deliver on it, what do they got? They got nothing. Nothing. And they don't really have the ability to set themselves up as the guys who got it done, not with this current approach. Yeah,
Carter
48:28
Yeah, when's the six-month timeline end for Kinder Morgan?
Corey
48:32
Oh, I don't know, but soon.
Carter
48:34
soon, right? Like, the cabinet's going to make a decision on Kinder Morgan. Yeah.
Carter
48:38
And I think they're going to say yes. And
Corey
48:40
And then what, right? I mean, if you're the conservatives, we've said this a thousand times, like, what game are you playing? This is chess. Look more than a move ahead. How do you think this helps you? Well,
Carter
48:48
Well, let's be honest. I mean, I just saw that the domain for Bernard the Roughneck is owned by The Rebel. Oh,
Carter
48:59
There you are. Yeah.
Zain
49:00
Okay, let's move it on to our next segment, Close But Not Really. Guys, I want to have a very quick hit on the American election as we head into the debates on Monday. And let's just start there. Stephen Carter, I know we've done episodes in the past on debate prep and what that means. in your mind uh maybe not even on any side right now just generally how big is the debate coming up for for this u.s election way
Carter
49:22
way bigger than i want it to be yeah i wanted this thing to be solved and set in the you know three months ago or whenever it was i guess two months ago it was six weeks ago when hillary clinton was an 80th percentile probability of winning it's now a coin coin toss. And President
Carter
49:41
is pretty much hinged right now on whether or not he can go into a debate and sound like a real human being, which is an unbelievably low bar, right?
Carter
49:49
The expectations for Trump are, please don't act like a chimp and throw your own feces at Hillary Clinton. And if he does more than that, he will win the debate.
Carter
50:00
And then where are we?
Zain
50:02
Corey, if you are the Clinton camp right now, what are you, what is your priority on trying to increase his bar more try to decrease your bar what are you focusing your limited energies and resources on right now it's just so tough
Corey
50:15
tough right i mean normally i would say increase the bar for him i'm just not sure that's a practical policy for them or approach given
Corey
50:25
everything that's happened in the past year right i mean americans just have this idea of trump the the buffoon particularly the ones who don't like him and i don't know if it's going to be a particularly believable strategy if you start going in going oh you know guys uh trump's actually pretty good debater i think instead you've got to take more of a meta approach and point out the very things that steven just pointed out like let's not grade this asshole on a curve let's grade them on can you do the job of president of the united states of america and let's compare pair him against that metric, not the metric that is the
Corey
50:59
the clown, the guy who comes out and if his pants don't fall down, you consider it a success. Carter,
Zain
51:04
Carter, you're advising Hillary Clinton. Same question I posed to Corey. What are you actively using your limited time and resources on right now? Raising his bar, lowering yours. Is it the meta approach Corey suggested? What are you doing?
Carter
51:15
Well, I don't think you can lower his bar anymore, right? Raise it.
Carter
51:19
mean, I don't think you can raise it. I mean, what are you going to do? Oh, Trump's a talented debater. No one's going to buy it. No one's going to buy it. You are now in this place where all you can do is prepare yourself for the debate and your new job because he's going to ignore moderators, right? He's probably going to ignore you. So you need to be in a position where your Teflon, right? Nothing he throws at you is going to stick and you have to find ways of turning it back on him and putting him in an uncomfortable place after uncomfortable place after uncomfortable place.
Zain
51:49
Corey, you're Donald Trump's team. What What are you doing right now? This whole Hillary health thing seems to have really gotten some legs. Heading into the debate, are you focusing on that? Are you focusing on the zeitgeist? Are you focusing more top line, you know, looking presidential? What are you trying to do if you're Trump heading into the debate?
Corey
52:09
Well, I've heard he doesn't really prepare very much for these debates, which is not a shock to anybody who's seen Trump in a debate. But he's, you
Corey
52:17
know, you've just got to remind yourself never to take that bait. You're going to have to pick a couple of messages that are a little more mainstream than some of the red meat you've thrown to the crowd. And you've got to stick to them. You've just got to, you know, the bar is low.
Corey
52:31
Please, if you're Trump, your
Corey
52:33
your staff are saying, please, for the love of God, man, walk
Corey
52:36
walk over the bar. Like, you just don't shuffle your feet and you'll be fine. Yeah.
Corey
52:40
Now, I think that's the thing. It's just going to be keeping them on message, making sure Hillary Clinton doesn't take you off message, hitting those attacks. and when she tries to thrust and parry and push it back,
Zain
52:51
back, you just don't take the bait.
Zain
52:52
Carter, what are you advising Trump on? Are you playing into the current zeitgeist of her health, pivoting into that, pivoting into emails? What are you trying to prepare him for? If he does indeed want to be coached, what is the coaching lesson you're providing?
Carter
53:05
Well, the last part of that question was probably the most important. If he does want to be coached, I would actually advise him that this is no longer about Hillary Clinton. They hate Hillary Clinton. all
Carter
53:17
all they have to do is like you so
Carter
53:19
so focus on being uh not necessarily presidential because that's not in your range um but but but don't be a chimp throwing feces answer
Carter
53:31
answer the questions in
Carter
53:34
in your way in your style you know with your complete lack of substance and inability and just rhetoric but just throw it out there do
Carter
53:41
do what you do and don't
Carter
53:43
don't take bait don't attack don't push push back, be above that fray, but answer the questions in your way, right? Don't make it about Hillary anymore. It's about you. Yeah,
Corey
53:55
Yeah, unfortunately for the world, if he does that, people are going to say he won the debate. I
Carter
53:59
I know. This is what I'm saying. Don't listen to me. If there's any Trump people out there, don't listen. I'm drunk right now. Go for the jugular.
Zain
54:04
drunk. Hold on. One last question on this before we move it on. Carter, is the debate for Donald Trump and for Hillary Clinton, I guess we could talk about both of them. is this an exercise to retain support or gain support like what are they trying to do as their main like goal if there's a top line one pager that you say here hillary or here donald here's your goal for the debate is it gain support is it retain like what are you looking what are you looking to do hillary
Carter
54:30
hillary needs to put herself back into the 80th percentile so
Zain
54:33
needs to she needs to climb up yeah she needs to make some gains yeah
Carter
54:36
yeah and trump jesus
Carter
54:38
jesus trump's such a wild card man like Like, traditionally, we would talk about ground game and how important ground game is at this particular moment. Trump doesn't have any ground game. Virtually none,
Corey
54:49
literally handed it over to the RNC. Yeah. So,
Carter
54:51
So, theoretically, we shouldn't be worried at all about President Trump. 50-50, take the group that's got ground game every time.
Carter
55:01
Absolutely. Every time. People
Carter
55:02
People can mobilize. But there appears
Carter
55:04
appears to be a bunch of Americans who are fucking crazy. crazy. And they're
Carter
55:09
they're going to vote for Trump. And that group grows and grows, because for some reason, they have equated what Trump has done to what Hillary has done. They've said these two people are equally bad.
Carter
55:20
mean, I think Corey
Carter
55:22
Corey and I would be on the other side of that. But
Carter
55:24
we're not. We're not the voice.
Zain
55:27
Corey, same question to you. You're writing a one page memo for each of the candidates. What's the top line goal for Hillary? And what's the top line end goal for Trump at the end of this debate? I pose to all options retain or gain, but there's other ones as well. What do you think? Hillary's
Corey
55:40
Hillary's is just to take him off message. Just let help Donald be Donald, right? And incite more Donald. Yeah,
Corey
55:48
advice is the exact opposite for Donald Trump. It's just stick to your box. Make sure that you are just saying the things that we know are tested and fine. You're not trying to wow them. You're not trying to go for a knockout blow. You are just trying to look like somebody who should be on that stage, and you will do just fine. All
Zain
56:06
All righty. Let's move it on to our final segment. Our final segment are over under our lightning round. Corey Hogan, I'm going to start with you. Corey, your three-word strategy, okay, three-word strategy to
Zain
56:16
to plead to the media to not use old stock photos of you. What would you suggest? This is just a random question. This has nothing to do with our friend Stephen Curry.
Carter
56:25
Curry. Hang on a second. The photo they used was the good picture.
Carter
56:30
that was the good one who
Zain
56:32
who says this is about you why are you inserting your ego into this this is general advice for anyone that's listening and or here uh what is what is your advice cory what would you suggest i
Corey
56:43
i think you just need to make it clear that the photo no longer represents you so i would go with i've lost weight i've cleaned up i look different and uh and you know maybe send them a headshot or two and uh and hopefully convince them that you do look different you don't but
Corey
57:06
is that headshot from by the way so I think we have to describe it you in front of Inglewood like kind of like was it Hosenhound yeah
Carter
57:13
yeah it was Hosenhound I actually liked that photo
Carter
57:16
compared to the one that the sun uses so the sun forever used this picture and it was the you know I'm not going to get into how many times they've used it or why they've used it do we need
Zain
57:27
need to tell people about
Carter
57:27
about the Calgary sun No, don't tell them about the Calgary Sun. The Calgary Sun hates me and hated me, hate me, continue to hate me. I don't know. But they have chosen consistently photographs off of my Facebook feed from years and years and years ago that are horrific. And they continue to use them because they hate me. So there is no way around it because literally they're being told, fuck
Carter
57:51
fuck him, and they are doing it. I
Zain
57:53
I genuinely do feel bad for you on that. But I'm going to you for this next question. We haven't talked about Rachel Notley in a few weeks here. In or out on Rachel Notley and what she's done in, let's say, the past three, four weeks, last month. Any particular feelings you have around her, Carter? I'm
Carter
58:06
I'm a little bit out in terms of the election financing and the Ethics and Accountability Committee.
Carter
58:14
You can't campaign and say that you're going to really give back committees
Carter
58:18
committees to the members of the Legislative Assembly and then not give it back to the members of the Legislative Assembly. It just seems modestly hypocritical. Corey,
Zain
58:27
Corey, same question to you, in or out on Premier Rachel
Corey
58:28
Rachel Notley. I mean, all that stuff has happened before the last time you asked this question. It's been the summer. Yeah, that's exactly why
Zain
58:35
why I wanted to get your answer. Went
Corey
58:37
Went to New York, continued that offensive across the continent. On cross
Zain
58:41
cross lines and energy. That, hey,
Corey
58:43
hey, listen, Alberta is the new Alberta and we're a good global citizen.
Corey
58:47
I mean, what do you have to object to? Same
Zain
58:49
Same question back at you this time about Brian Jean. We also haven't heard from him in a little while. Hasn't made many headlines or much to do. In or out on Brian Jean, Corey? Well, he made one big
Corey
58:58
big headline, right? This was his whole gaffe there. So
Corey
59:06
You're out? Yeah. How can you not be out? Carter? I mean, the whole threatening, or not threatening, but saying, I wish I could beat the Premier, that was bad, and it's going to cost him.
Zain
59:16
Last three or four weeks, Brian Jean, I mean, that story, indeed an issue, but has seemed to dissipate quite quickly things
Corey
59:21
things like that they just go in your greatest hits catalog and people are going to remember that and you're going to be able to string them together particularly with the wild rose if there's any other accusations of misogyny or whatnot
Corey
59:33
he no longer can insulate himself from that claim that is thrown at his party he
Corey
59:37
he used to be able to do that carter
Zain
59:40
are you in or out on brian gene let's let's include that that one gaffe as part of it but going forward what do you think or what your assessment has been I
Carter
59:47
think that Brian Jean is conceding the right to Jason Kenney, so I'm out. You're
Zain
59:51
You're out. Over, under, on six, Corey Hogan, how the federal government has responded so far on one of their major policy planks, which is electoral reform. I've asked this question before. I'm asking it again based on the increased volatility of the conversations. Over, under, on six.
Corey
1:00:07
six, I don't actually see it being that much more volatile than it was before. They're just in the middle of their consultations. They're going around the country. They're asking questions. They're having their town halls. they're open houses it's it's not really any different sometimes it seems like it's more ratcheted up if
Corey
1:00:24
if it passes through your neck of the woods like we just had here in calgary that town
Corey
1:00:28
hall on that so maybe it seems uh bigger but it's not they're just doing their stuff they're going through the motions carter over under on six on electoral reform give
Carter
1:00:37
give it a c um
Zain
1:00:40
i was just hoping
Carter
1:00:40
hoping this would happen at some point i i think i
Carter
1:00:43
i agree with I mean, it's hard to add any more than when it's there in your place, they write some stories, they take a video camera out, then it goes away, and you go back to your real life. It's the next town, yeah.
Zain
1:00:56
Carter, back at you. The one thing, if you are the federal government today, another question from the past, but I'd be interested to hear your take today. The one thing that you would move on on the agenda with the capital that you have as a federal government today.
Zain
1:01:09
We talked about this two, three months ago. I want to talk about it today. What is it in your mind?
Carter
1:01:13
Well, I think probably because we were just talking about it, pipelines. Yeah.
Carter
1:01:18
That's going to cost a considerable amount of capital, especially the pipeline that they like. I've never understood why they didn't take the Northern. Why they like the one they like?
Carter
1:01:26
Yeah. There are 15
Carter
1:01:28
15 seats in the lower mainline of British Columbia that may be in play in different fashions after saying yes to a pipeline like Kinder Morgan. Right.
Carter
1:01:36
There are two seats in play if you say yes to Northern Gateway because everybody else will forget about it. But sure, there'll be some activists who tie themselves to trees and stuff like that. But we'll get through that. We'll bulldoze them over and away we go. But this is going
Carter
1:01:51
to cost a lot of capital. And now's the time to spend it.
Carter
1:01:55
Your first two years is when you have to spend your capital. The second half, you build back up to running an election. Corey,
Zain
1:02:03
Corey, same question back at you. What are you suggesting they move on today? day i
Corey
1:02:08
think that anything else is window dressing or you're too constrained because of finances you've got to approach the fiscal structure you've got to look at taxes uh you got to see if maybe the gst goes back up to seven points you need to look if your brackets were appropriate because you've just essentially you know you people forget but when the liberals talked about their tax cut for the middle class they said it would be revenue neutral because it was paid for by upper income murders it wasn't you know you've just tightened your fiscal structure even further you
Corey
1:02:36
you have nothing but problems in the future unless you solve that problem all other problems are solvable if you solve that problem and maybe it takes the the uh you know the
Corey
1:02:46
the shape of a carbon tax which would allow you also to tackle your global uh or not your global but your national uh
Corey
1:02:52
uh carbon challenge and how we have all of these different jurisdictions some doing something some doing a lot some doing nothing at all maybe
Corey
1:02:59
maybe you do it through that mechanism maybe you just do it through gst maybe you do it through income taxes but you've got to do something because right now you're you're in a very challenging fiscal situation that is hamstringing you on doing anything else you want to do final
Zain
1:03:13
final question carter i'm going to you first who wins the debate on monday night he
Carter
1:03:22
i am upset i don't know you don't know i well are you leaning one way You know what, when I say I don't know, I don't want to accept that it's going to be him.
Zain
1:03:35
Not even going to say his name. Corey, who wins the debate Monday night?
Corey
1:03:38
I think on points it'll be Hillary, but judged against the curve, it'll be Donald.
Zain
1:03:43
That's it. We'll leave it there. That's a wrap on Episode 593 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velgey. With me, as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan, and we will see you next time.