Zain: This is a strategist episode 1848. Jay, my name is Zain Velji. With me as always, there's Stephen Carter. And of course, there's Corey Hogan. Hey, Carter. Yeah, Carter. What's the price of milk?
Carter: I don't know that.
Zain: What's the what's the self checkout code for bananas? You
Carter: guys just said it, but I still don't know. Because I wasn't even paying attention. Corey,
Zain: Corey, I suggest replacing the cost of milk political question and what is a carton of eggs cost with the self-checkout code for bananas. I feel like that needs to be the new political litmus test for if you're a man of the people or a woman of the people running for elected office. Yay or nay? What say
Carter: and
Corey: Yay
Corey: Yay or nay? What say you? Are you like – you're a code guy, hey, in self-checkout? Because I'm usually like a go to like the things that are most commonly used and it's right there. Bananas is – Oh,
Zain: Oh, yeah. I'm a code guy. i 1251 cheese buns 30
Zain: 59 that's that's store dependent crisp which is a little bit of an elite apple um i guess let's let's do the apple let's do the apple a little bit of knowledge yeah yeah the
Corey: that's that's store dependent crisp which
Corey: guess let's
Corey: let's let's do the apple let's do the apple a little
Corey: knowledge yeah yeah the
Corey: the
Corey: the the bakery stuff is all store dependent but now 1251 is produce the produce one is a cheese bun the coat i bet you 12 tells you a bit about where it's from what
Zain: now 1251 is produce the produce one is a cheese
Zain: tells
Zain: tells you
Zain: what does it what do you mean tells you where it's from what the hell does that mean if it's got a three at the start
Corey: start it's from east of the mississippi and if it's got a four at the start it's from west of Why
Zain: at the start it's from west of
Zain: Why are we using the same metric as we use for counting seconds at a water fountain?
Corey: using the
Corey: That's a great question. Unclear to me. Why
Corey: Why
Zain: Why is the Mississippi being
Corey: Mississippi being
Corey: being reintroduced?
Corey: No, I got it. I got it. No, it was hilarious,
Carter: No, it was hilarious, Zane. I'm just asking. It got funnier when you explained it. No, I'm just asking. I'm asking.
Corey: No, I'm
Zain: I'm just asking. I'm asking.
Carter: No. Why do you know this? It was great. Why do you know this? Carter, you can shut the fuck up. I worked at a grocery store. We just told you what bananas
Zain: shut the fuck up. I worked at a grocery store. We just told you what bananas were, and you couldn't repeat it. Carter, you should not be running for political office. I
Carter: I got it now, the third time.
Carter: Okay,
Zain: Okay, what is it? What is it? Bananas, Carter.
Carter: Okay, what is it? What is it?
Carter: Oh, it was just bravado. Yeah, it's good.
Zain: Yeah, it's good. Corey, should we jump into the fact that Ruby Della did not get to debate tonight, or should we jump to the fact that we all love and support Hamas? Which of these interests you the most?
Carter: we
Corey: we jump to
Corey: Okay, well, I really think that we should provide some context to everything that we've said to point, particularly Hamas. I don't see the reason.
Zain: particularly Hamas. I don't see the reason. Especially the bananas. yeah especially the bananas yeah
Carter: reason. Especially the bananas. yeah
Corey: yeah uh
Zain: uh fine do you want to provide context or do you want to just dive into one of those two things the
Zain: the first of the liberal leadership debates was tonight largely
Corey: largely an uninteresting affair where we could all pick apart and pass judgment on the french of the various candidates who all probably speak french better than us but you know we're not running to be prime ministers so that's one thing but in the debate uh mark carney couldn't really answer what the weekly price of groceries was or bananas comes
Zain: or bananas
Zain: comes
Corey: comes
Zain: comes from
Corey: from
Zain: from
Corey: that's where the bananas comes from and
Corey: and at some point he said i think we all agree with hamas when he meant to say on hamas that's a mistake that i would make even in my first language i certainly could forgive it in the second language but uh already blowing up the internet in the kind of looking
Corey: looking to be offended circles there and um and the ruby dollar thing uh ruby's
Corey: ruby's gonna be next prime minister i don't know Oh, yeah,
Corey: almost certainly.
Zain: Carter, can I actually ask a question? Is a misspeak in your second language, is there a there there?
Corey: Carter,
Zain: Like, is there actually some meat on the bone there? Or is this just
Zain: a 15-minute story that doesn't actually have anything left in it by the morning time? What do you think? I
Carter: think in today's political environment, there's a there in everything. Because the outrage machine is just so tuned and so on all the time that, you know, this will be clipped and it will be cut and pasted and thrown all over the Internet. Elon Musk's ex will be awash with this type of clip because that's what we do now. Regardless of the fairness of it, it is what we do. And you know what? The question I would ask is why wouldn't liberals do the same thing to Pierre Polyev if Pierre Polyev made such a misstep? Absolutely they would. Corey,
Zain: Corey, I get what Carter's saying, that this is what we do now. We've got a 24-hour, of course, news cycle for a long time, but we've, of course, got a rapid-fire social media environment in which you're producing content all the time. You're always looking for content. There's really no penalty if it doesn't stick. So, yes, there are folks within the conservative movement, third party groups that are going to make hay of this. But I'm really curious on the materiality of my question. Like, you're in a debate in your second language.
Zain: Is there a there there from the public's perspective to like, and how they're thinking about this and analyzing it? Well,
Corey: I do think it's a bit of a stretch that any sane human being is going to think that Mark Carney is on the side of Hamas and like accidentally said what he believed, right? If there is a there there, it is exactly the second language point. The question is, is his French good enough, right? And I think that there are certainly times
Zain: The question is,
Corey: times tonight that Chrystia Freeland was clearly trying to push in that direction, trying to nudge, you know, it's finishing his sentences at a certain point. I can't remember the exact context, but being like, oh, the word you're looking for is whatever. Yeah, yeah,
Zain: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Corey: yeah, yeah.
Corey: And I'm sure she would love it if people were saying, is Mark Carney's French good enough? But I don't know that there is a there there. Like I said, it's a fairly innocuous mistake. What I actually can't get over, like the French thing is what the French thing is. That was always going to be the hurdle that Mark Carney had today. Yeah, sure. And the
Zain: enough?
Zain: today. Yeah, sure. And
Corey: the reality is that is probably one of the bigger challenges he has. You know, none of the candidates' French is like super fluid. But what I can't get over, what I can't understand is why would the liberals put on a debate where the liberals pick the moderator and that moderator throw gotcha questions at the liberals? Like, I think in many ways, the more egregious one was like the grocery question. Like, is this fucking bar trivia? Like, we're trying to just say like, oh, no, sorry, answer's wrong. You know, like, I don't, what's the benefit? How do you win that question? It's designed to make people look out of touch. I cannot agree with you more.
Zain: I did not watch the entirety of this debate, but even the body language of this moderator, Carter, seemed to be very much like, I'm going to try my level best to ensure none of you think I am one of you, i.e. a liberal, and I'm going to ensure that every question I ask you would be asked as if I were moderating a general election debate. My neutrality is unimpeachable, so to speak.
Carter: very much
Zain: Was
Zain: that the right move for the party here?
Zain: No. Absolutely not. I got your take, Corey. Carter, what do you think?
Corey: I
Corey: Carter's
Zain: Carter's take's the same.
Carter: Carter's take's the same.
Carter: I haven't had any thoughts in my brain for quite some time. I'm really thankful for Corey for answering the question. And for
Zain: And for your wife, I guess. He introduced the question, he answered it, and then he answered it when I asked you. And I told you what your answer is. Yeah, I
Corey: for
Carter: for your wife, I guess. He introduced
Carter: And I told
Corey: told
Carter: told you
Carter: Yeah, I
Carter: I mean, I feel like I could get a word in edgewise. Yeah, before you
Zain: Yeah, before you do, just the code for bananas. Just before you start with that.
Carter: I really don't even care. um you know i i watched the debate pieces of it parts of it elements of it sections of it i didn't
Corey: it i didn't watch some of
Carter: didn't watch
Carter: watch some of it i did watch some of it and then i had to turn it off watch
Zain: of
Zain: of it
Corey: it and
Zain: and then
Corey: then
Zain: then
Corey: then i
Zain: i had to turn it off watch any of it my
Carter: my colleague and i were watching it and we said it was giving us a headache because uh it was just too much but uh much french no not
Zain: much french
Corey: french
Zain: french
Carter: too much french too much both languages because we were watching the translated version and the translated version it was just it was it
Carter: it gets very annoying because you're listening to the english being spoken over the french and it's just it's just too much and of course i can't watch the french because i'm unilingual so how
Carter: how do you do with foreign
Corey: how do you do with foreign cinema out of curiosity i
Carter: i read the subtitles like normal people do yeah
Corey: people
Corey: yeah very good what
Carter: what the hell is wrong wrong with you you've never seen a subtitle but
Carter: but
Carter: but
Corey: but
Zain: but
Corey: but
Zain: but
Corey: but
Zain: but this
Carter: this is the this is the uh you
Zain: this is
Carter: you know i i think that the the moderator wanted to be seen as neutral and uh you know there's a degree of of acceptability in that because this is the person they're not just questioning the next leader of the liberal party they are questioning the next prime minister whoever wins this leadership will be the prime minister and and by putting themselves forward as more objective and and i saw the body language i thought the body language was interesting but you know i think by making themselves more objective more uh pushing on the on the on this person i don't think that it was the uh slam dunk opinion of of cory togan i can see why they would have gone that way cory
Zain: cory why was it why was it a mistake from your car you're not defending the decision per se you're saying you see the strategic reason and in terms of why, Corey, you've been the executive director of a party, right? You've run a political party. Why was this not the right call to pursue? Let's just assume what they were going for was neutrality and objectivity with their moderator.
Corey: Because the thing that a party needs to do before anything else during a leadership contest is no harm, do no harm. And you want to make sure that no matter what happens, the party overall is strengthened coming coming out of it here and i get the appeal of going to a like a journalist so this is like a former tva host pierre jobin right i get that because it seems like they should be able to ask questions but i actually think the alberta ndp did it better where they found people who were ndp aligned and came in i'm just using that because it's the example that i can immediately most recently yeah yeah
Zain: yeah yeah because at the end of
Corey: of the day they care about the party and i think that matters um there is going to be an awful lot of opportunity for the people on the stage to try to to take a round out of the other people on the stage there's going to be an awful lot of opportunity for the media to do media things but in terms of what the party is trying to do the party is not trying to embarrass anybody it's the same reason why you wouldn't create it uh you know what the best way to think about it is take it outside of a debate frame would you create rules that would embarrass people from a membership standpoint would you create rules that would embarrass people from an appeal standpoint you wouldn't if you thought you was doing like imagine if the party sent a questionnaire around to everybody or or did a pop quiz on something like this in any other setting you'd say totally inappropriate and i think parties need to think a little bit more about that because carter is right we do live in a world where everything gets taken out of context and this isn't even that this is taken in context it's just an embarrassing thing but parties need to be a little bit more guarded in 2025 like this is not a clip that then dies this This is a clip that shows up everywhere. And it's not a clip that one of the candidates foisted on the other. I think the liberals learned their lesson on that front from 2006 and Stéphane Dion and his, do you think it's easy to make priorities, right?
Corey: This is something that the moderator foisted on the liberals. And, you know, the party could have avoided that by picking a moderator who had the party's interests in mind. You make
Zain: in mind. You make a good point. And, of course, we've got back-to-back debates here, by the way. We should mention to our listeners. We've got tomorrow night in English. so you know um you've got that's gonna
Carter: got tomorrow
Corey: tomorrow night
Carter: night
Corey: night
Carter: you've got that's gonna be easier for me to understand well
Zain: well you've got the ability to clean up you've got the ability for steven carter to understand i assume you don't have the ability to change your moderator but but carter corey makes some good points here and frankly i'd say i'm pretty aligned with him in the sense that you don't want to create content for the other team and
Zain: i think if the liberal party was worried about content being created tonight it was worried about it from christia freeland perhaps and she didn't really give any big blows to mark carney She didn't do what she did on the first week of the campaign going after Carney or saying certain things that could be clippable, usable by the conservatives. I believe that was a worry by quite a few in the liberal establishment going into tonight and frankly heading into tomorrow night too. And let's see. Maybe tonight people are going to take it easy. Tomorrow it's where the big barbs come out. So I'm not, you know, calling
Corey: calling the game just yet.
Zain: calling the game just yet. However, I don't think anyone was expecting the moderator's sort of question line to trip folks up or to produce any content. If you were looking at this and through the lens of the Liberal Party tonight, would you be worried heading into tomorrow, Carter, around your strategy and the instructions you give for folks tomorrow night where you expect viewership to be higher, clipability to be higher, and frankly, the throughput of anything that comes out of that debate to be magnified significantly more as well?
Carter: Yeah, I'm just not going to let you drag me onto Corey's side of this argument. I'm still, you know, I'm still sitting here. You're not giving any notes
Zain: any notes to the moderator tomorrow night after seeing what happened tonight.
Corey: Actually, I'm not giving any notes to the moderator tomorrow night either. No notes. I mean, you do not give a journalist notes. Because you've already selected a journalist. You are basically tagging. I
Zain: tomorrow night
Zain: night either.
Zain: No notes. I mean,
Zain: Because you've already selected a journalist. You are basically tagging. I assume they've selected a journalist for tomorrow night. Actually,
Corey: Actually, I don't know who they have for tomorrow night. I assume it is too. I assume it's a journalist too. If you talk slowly or just ask a regular Zane-length question, I'll Google it and I'll find out.
Zain: night. I assume it is too. I assume it's a journalist
Zain: out. No, you know what? Fuck you. Why don't I try it? I'm not going to ask any questions. We're going to do this in silence. Go ahead. Okay.
Carter: No, you know what? Fuck you. Why don't I try it? I'm not going
Corey: All right. right well no yeah i didn't even start i know it's hard i didn't even start i know it's hard for you i know it's so hard
Zain: no yeah i didn't even start i know it's hard i didn't even start i know it's hard for you i know it's so hard
Zain: hard for you it's
Corey: it's dinner is like so difficult silence for me carter
Zain: dinner is like so difficult silence for me carter watch
Corey: carter watch
Corey: watch how easy this is for us we're pros at this okay
Corey: well i don't i don't have it i don't know where to find it and i don't want to do it anymore the
Zain: find it and i don't want to do it anymore the whole point is you don't have to speak well we could no no we could do anything cut the silence out
Corey: no no we could do anything cut the silence out oh
Zain: out oh
Corey: you don't need to say anything cory
Zain: you don't need to say anything cory you don't need to say hannah thibodeau wait
Corey: is the moderator you mean like the
Zain: moderator you mean like the former journalist i
Corey: former journalist
Corey: i assume i do like the former cbc
Zain: like the former cbc is she now like a global public
Corey: like a global public affairs yeah yeah she's moderate oh that's interesting yeah
Zain: affairs yeah yeah
Zain: moderate oh that's
Zain: okay then okay here's the okay now now now do you give notes how do you give notes i
Carter: okay
Corey: okay now now now do you give notes how do
Zain: i
Carter: i think
Zain: think
Carter: think this
Zain: this reinforces my point
Carter: this reinforces my point the liberal party is going after this like they are interviewing and they are auditioning yes the next prime minister of the country and this is to me um a good choice i i think that some of the gotcha elements were probably uncalled for. I mean, the grocery thing is just annoying. You know, it's just, you
Carter: know, it just doesn't need to be asked. But nonetheless, I think that having a former journalist of Hannah Thibodeau's pedigree is a fantastic choice, and I hope that she does behave like she's moderating the Prime Minister's debate. I think that that's the level that this party should be be aspiring to and frankly it means that the the candidates just need to do better and so the only notes that i'd be giving are to the candidates themselves um and making sure that the then the their performance is better because i don't think that the the moderator was the one who was being fine but
Zain: fine but i'll move on i i i get it um it's a fair point cory thank
Carter: thank you for not dragging me into his side again one last time cory
Zain: one last time cory what uh what notes would you want to give to any any or all of the of the candidates pick or choose anyone you want to start with i
Corey: pick or choose anyone
Corey: i i mean as a party i'm not giving notes no you you
Zain: no you you you as you as cory hogan political strategist communications yeah person yeah
Corey: okay well my overall hmm
Corey: hmm that's interesting i i think that the general consensus is gold had a pretty good night and so you've got to assume that she now feels like she's got to do the same um freeland Freeland probably the weakest on the stage. Bayless, surprisingly cogent, you know, and not that there was any reason to believe he wouldn't be, but like nobody had him in the conversation. Right. And, uh, and Carney did Carney. Carney was clearly in some ways the best prepared. Like he had the best packaged lines, if that makes sense. Right. Yeah. I thought Freeland's package lines were a little bit weak. Um, so I would say with, uh, Carney, it's, you know, don't stare so much at the camera. It's stuff like that. and it's be comfortable up there yeah it's funny to give people the line be comfortable up there but i actually think he could take that line like he's been on enough big stages you could say like look you're you're over scripting yourself don't worry about it be loose you got to be a little bit more loose right you're a smart guy you're an accomplished guy just roll with it um this
Carter: Right.
Zain: sense. Right. Yeah. I
Corey: is the chance for gold really to make an impression and for freeland it's like this is this is kind of of like your last stand you've got to you got to bring something big so can i freeland probably needs to come out swinging in a way she did can i can i can we
Zain: so can
Zain: we just zoom in on freeland for a second before i get carter's take on on notes for candidates heading into tomorrow
Corey: you've given me your
Zain: your take you think she do you think she will swing big like would you advise her to swing big or would you advise her to say don't
Zain: don't it's over like you know what i mean like because there is a cost that comes with swinging right as we've just discussed you
Corey: because there
Corey: know so i was talking i was texting with a friend in in the liberal party today or yesterday about exactly this like do does freeland think it's so over that any damage she does is just damage or does she think she's still got a shooter's chance here and
Carter: here
Corey: and that's not clear to me based on how she's acting even today right like i felt like she was trying to minimize damage at different points but um she
Corey: wasn't entirely trying to minimize damage right like she was still willing to like throw a punch or throw a snide remark and i don't know that they were all super calculated to just not not cause trouble or strife for the party i
Corey: don't know um but but i also don't even know what she would do like it's easy to say in general terms oh you got to come out swinging well what does that look like yeah right yeah does it come out saying mark you can't speak french which is not true but i'm just trying to like create like the most aggressive thing like mark you can't speak french you don't know know the price of groceries you have no business being on this stage like just try to put like a stiletto between his ribs or what like what does this look like carter like what does it look
Zain: yeah right
Zain: does it look like i'm curious what you would advise freeland heading into tomorrow um do you swing or do you not swing and if you swing what does the swing look like i
Carter: don't think you swing for another candidate i think you just you double down on how good you can be focus
Carter: focus only on your own internal capacity And this isn't the opportunity to tear anybody down. This is an opportunity to build yourself up. To be clear, when you mean tear anybody down,
Zain: tear anybody down, you mean anyone else who's on that stage? Exactly. You can
Carter: can destroy Pierre Polyev. You can destroy Jagmeet Singh. You can go after them all day, every moment of the debate. But Chrystia
Zain: Jagmeet Singh. You
Corey: You can go after them all day,
Carter: Chrystia Freeland needs to say, I'm going to be the best Chrystia Freeland. I'm not going to go after someone else. OK, but Frank Bayless gets to go after anybody he wants to. He's not relevant to the party the day after this leadership is over. Karina Gould is someone who can't
Corey: OK, but
Carter: can't necessarily, you know, can take a few punches and throw a few punches, a few jabs maybe, but isn't someone that I would advise to go after Carney or Freeland for that matter. And Carney, just to Corey's point, the advice I would give to Carney is just relax, right? Relax. The only way you're going to lose this is if you don't relax. If you are so uptight and so difficult that people think, well, that guy doesn't have a soul, then,
Carter: then, but I'm not saying that that's what his performance was tonight, but he's, the more relaxed he is, the better he is. And that is, that's the Mark Carney that people want to see. and that's the advice that i'd be giving him if i was if i was sitting there
Corey: okay
Corey: okay you kind of are sitting there though are you giving him that advice come
Carter: are sitting there though are
Carter: you giving him that advice come on now it's not like i'm i'm in vancouver for god's sake that's
Corey: that's a great i'm on the other side yeah why are you you reminded me of something you you you reminded me of something about uh freeland's performance which is that i would say i don't know the first hour was her trying to show she's the tough one to stand up to trump right trying to show that she's the tough one to stand up to polyam and i think every time she tried to carney looked better at it than her right and so why i mean i know you can't throw out your entire strategy at this point but do
Carter: i'm on the other side yeah why are you you reminded me of something you
Corey: you think you need to have the conversation if you're a freeland campaign about how you at least shake it up so that when all of the pieces fall back down people are kind of perceiving you you ask why because of the experience he had because of the way he was able to articulate his you know his expertise that because of the way he comported It just he just seemed more like the guy who would give Donald Trump a hard time.
Carter: And,
Corey: And, and I, you know, ultimately, this is fundamentally perhaps the, the earth strategy problem that Christian Freeland made, which is I'm the person who can most stand up to Trump, because Trump doesn't like me. Right. And
Corey: And I can understand how she made that calculation. But, but her entire campaign flows from that point. And I'm, I'm pretty convinced at this point, she's wrong. Like, I'm pretty convinced that if that's the ballot question, liberals go for Mark Carney.
Zain: Carter, does she have enough time to change the ballot question? Because in some ways, they're both kind of leaning into the environment here, right? Which is the Trump question helps the liberals. So we're going to lean into the Trump question. There hasn't tried to be a lot of, like, nuance within the liberal leadership to say which of the sub-Trump questions helps me, per se. Because I think they're all thankful that the question's not about the carbon tax. tax which by the way they've all said they're getting rid of except gould who says she's going to freeze it at current levels so to speak right so i don't think either of them kind of have tried to be like well which sub question about trump benefits me the most if you're freeland cory's question you're shaking up the board a bit uh
Carter: uh heading into tomorrow i'm
Carter: not really i
Carter: think at the end of the day you think this thing is going i
Zain: think this thing is going
Carter: think so i think so i mean there there was some polling that came out i didn't see that you sent a poll out today I sent a tweet
Zain: i think so
Zain: I sent a tweet that had, like, subscriber-only polling, which I didn't have access to. So I was hoping I knew you guys were— This is like a business. We
Carter: to.
Corey: to.
Carter: to. So
Corey: So I was hoping
Carter: hoping I
Corey: I knew you guys were— This is like
Corey: We could have bought it. No, I mean, why would we do
Zain: do that? Why
Corey: do that?
Carter: Why would we? I mean, it was amazing. Why would you buy what you can get for free, which
Corey: Why
Zain: Why would
Zain: Why would you buy what you can get for free, which is why we're giving away one Patreon subscription? Are we? Well, I already gave it away already.
Corey: already gave it
Zain: This is my way of telling you guys that I gave it to Donald Trump. But
Corey: is
Carter: is my
Corey: my way of telling you guys that
Corey: But listen, like, if Freeland's campaign was, I can be toughest with Donald Trump, and people are not buying that. The shortest distance to pivot to me seems to be, I can be toughest. And if that's going to be your thing, show don't tell and beat the hell out of Carney. To the overall point, I'm not even sure it's worth it at this moment. Do you beat the hell out of Carney
Carter: To
Zain: To the
Zain: I'm not even
Zain: worth it at this moment.
Zain: Do you beat the hell out of Carney or do you show on stage how you would somehow beat a shadow box against Trump or Polyev, right? Do you kind of almost think of them as a fifth person on stage and try to beat
Corey: beat the shit
Zain: the shit
Corey: shit
Zain: shit out of them? I
Corey: I
Corey: get it, but I feel like we saw at least an attempt at that. You thought that's what she was trying today. Yeah, I feel like that's what we got tonight. You can't
Zain: an
Carter: an attempt
Zain: attempt at that. You thought that's
Carter: that's
Zain: that's what she
Carter: she
Zain: she was trying today.
Carter: tonight. You can't punch someone who's not punching you back.
Carter: And Trump and Pierre Polyev aren't punching. So, you know, the person on the the only people that you can punch are the people on the stage. And there's really no way to go after Mark Carney, to go after, I mean, this is the problem with leaderships. Once you know that you're really in the dirt, it's
Corey: Once you know
Carter: it's super hard to go after them. I mean, With Alison Redford, Gary Maher was so far in front that you'd be nuts to go after him, absolutely nuts to go after him. You had to find a different way, and her mother died.
Carter: Just like that.
Carter: Coincidentally.
Corey: don't like what's being implied here at all. Not by me.
Carter: at all. Not by
Zain: by
Zain: me. You think I started it? He
Zain: brought it up. No, I don't. He started it. What did I say? And he never denies the rumors. Was
Carter: there anything that
Zain: that wasn't true
Carter: that wasn't true in that conversation? conversation would
Zain: would you like to go on the record and deny something for the first time why
Carter: would i deny anything there's nothing to deny it's
Zain: fucking cat dancer it's great point steven these are cat dancers um is there a limitation on how much you can attack polyev or trump tomorrow night we
Corey: cat dancer it's
Corey: it's great point
Carter: point
Corey: point
Carter: point steven
Corey: steven these
Zain: talked about how there's a limitation on the art how you do it uh how much you do it is there a limitation carter
Zain: not
Carter: not after he just came out again today and said that they They're going to hedge forth is the deadline. Right. You know, like that's that's coming up next week. It's it's you know, we haven't done anything egregious in the last month. We've been trying to figure out the answers to his questions. There are no answers to his questions. So you may as well make fun of him the way the rest of the world is making fun of him. You may as well go after him the rest of the way the rest of the world is going after him.
Zain: They're going to hedge forth
Zain: Right. You
Carter: Donald Trump is the enemy and
Carter: and you
Carter: may as well define him as such. I just don't think you're going to be as successful at that because Donald Trump's not punching back at Chrystia Freeland.
Zain: Corey, do you also agree that there's no limitation? Yeah,
Corey: you can do it as much as you want. I mean, the Freeland campaign is basically already no limits on Trump. I think the Carney campaign basically is as well, although maybe in a little bit more banker talk. But yeah, to the point, looks like tariffs are back on. looks like the only thing that's happened in the last week that would change anybody's opinion about donald trump is has been to change it to the negative it was some of his commentary around the hockey game right plus let's not forget all of the other fucking stuff he's doing globally yeah we haven't talked about ukraine we haven't talked about you know
Zain: yeah we haven't talked about ukraine we haven't talked about you
Zain: know all
Corey: all
Corey: all
Zain: all so i think it's
Corey: so i think it's it's kind of zero risk and insofar as there is an audience in canada who says oh boy i'd like somebody to play a little bit nicer they're not the people watching the liberal leadership debate right it's just it's they want somebody who's gonna make them feel good like there's a fighter who can take it to uh trump and uh polyev and and all of the people that are on their enemies list that they go to bed you know repeating the names of like that's that's what you want if you're looking at a leadership debate carter yeah
Zain: yeah agree or disagree with the following statement about to throw out there mark
Zain: mark carney goes to bed disagree mark carney goes to bed tonight maybe not so happy with the debate performance fine with the debate performance but gleeful that tariffs are back on
Carter: um oh
Carter: boy you
Carter: you know i don't think i disagree you're
Zain: don't think i disagree you're
Zain: you're
Zain: you're gonna disagree okay
Carter: okay i'm
Carter: i'm gonna disagree because i don't think anybody's going to bed thinking you
Carter: you know what the the near destruction of the canadian economy is going to be good for me sure
Zain: me sure
Zain: sure sure sure sure yes right but but
Zain: but
Carter: but
Zain: but
Carter: but i'm
Carter: gonna get but again it's nice to have something to punch again thank you you know sometimes you want to hit Hit a heavy bag. And Donald Trump provides a heavy bag. Right. Like he's like this is this is real crisis with real implications. And we've talked about how great politicians rise to the crisis, you know, and I think that Mark Carney could rise to this crisis. And he put out a video
Zain: he put out a video today voiced by his daughter, effectively saying, you
Zain: you know, my dad responds to crisis sort of thing. right this is this is this is his ms sort of thing so interesting video yeah
Corey: ms sort
Corey: yeah
Zain: yeah we can talk about it if you'd like to uh in a minute sure same question to you like
Corey: in a minute sure same
Zain: like the different way of asking it this is good news for the liberals cory that the fight is back on the fight is real you don't have to manufacture it you don't have to fight the ghost of it you can fight the real thing and you know at least it signals that the the question of donald trump is not going away from uh the election season yeah
Corey: it's slightly different than the way you phrased it with steven sure and so a little easier for me to say yeah i think it is he's mark carney going to bed gleeful the tariffs
Zain: tariffs are back on
Corey: on for it yes
Corey: yes
Corey: yes or no yeah
Zain: yeah
Corey: yeah no i don't i honestly don't think he is because he is um you know gonna have to deal with this in his wildest dreams like if everything goes his way this is a challenge for the entire country but but i do think it's undeniable that this has changed the dynamic in Canadian politics, and we can argue about how much it's changed it, but it's changed it.
Zain: yeah no
Corey: But I do think there's a risk, right? It's almost a reverse boy who cries wolf. Let me try this one on. Donald Trump says,
Zain: Donald Trump says, it's
Corey: it's going to be tariffs. The
Corey: whole world reacts. Markets react. Justin Trudeau is giving speeches. It's all happening, and the drama is high. Canadians are talking It's a big deal. Seizing our imaginations.
Corey: Donald Trump again today announced tariffs.
Corey: Didn't feel the same energy already, did you? No. I was going to get to
Zain: did you? No. I was going to get to this. This is interesting that you're going here. Yes, yes. Yeah. You
Corey: This is interesting
Corey: You know, all of a sudden it seems like, yeah, well, he said that before and he backed out. Like there is a thing Donald Trump does, which is kind of a variant of another thing Donald Trump does. The other thing is like he just pings around to every fucking crazy issue. But he does this thing where he dips his toe into an issue, gets backlash, pulls back, dips his toe a little bit deeper, gets a little bit less backlash. And he just keeps going and going until there is no reactive outrage anymore. And then he just plows forward with it. And he's done this on a lot of things. He's done this on everything from like January 6th to comments about, you know, Ukraine during his first impeachment to, you know, comments basically about anybody in his orbit that he's had to disavow at any given time, right? And now he seems to be doing this with tariffs. Like, it's not going to remotely surprise me if he once again backs down and gives once again another two weeks or 30 days, whatnot. whatnot but the risk at this point becomes we stop you know we stop actually paying attention we stop believing anything's going to happen and uh and so that's
Corey: something i think that canadians need to be a little bit alive to here that it's very possible that because trudeau can't go on the you know television and give that solemn like address every saturday you know between now and and you know whenever he's not prime minister anymore but trump can continue to just ping off off crazy thoughts from his head so there's a bit of an asymmetry here and and canadian officials better be thinking right now about how they respond to this thing in an environment where his responses cost nothing and yours cost a lot of time and interest carter
Zain: this is transitioning away from tonight and tomorrow night's debate so is there anything you wanted to add as as footnotes to that before we kind of move away and start talking about trump and and the polyev conservatives conservatives no
Carter: i mean i feel like the debate here
Carter: i mean let me let me play the role of moderator zane did anything change tonight well
Zain: that's built into the fact that we don't even have to ask it no nothing changed no i mean other than that we're all proudly canadians every single one of us with him us do
Carter: than that we're all proudly canadians
Carter: do do
Carter: do we anticipate change tomorrow
Zain: just
Zain: just just
Zain: just more with him us tomorrow now
Corey: now
Corey: now if he says with him us again tomorrow night i'm
Carter: with him us again tomorrow
Corey: i'm gonna start to worry i'm gonna start to have have some questions yeah no but i
Carter: yeah no but i think i think that this is the challenge with debates you know the debates don't matter until the debates do matter and i feel like today is is one of those the debates didn't matter i
Zain: debates didn't
Zain: i don't want to just let you get away with that for you what do you mean by the debates don't matter to those debates do matter you mean like in hindsight we'll find debate clips that end up matter like what do you mean by that i just want to make sure you you have an opportunity to be clear on most
Carter: most of the most of the time debates don't matter and then every once in a while the debate comes in and it's the big thing it's the thing that shifts everybody we We we often use the 2015 Rachel. But in mythology,
Zain: But in mythology, though, right? Like it's kind of like it's it's it's it's it's things have already been heading. And it
Carter: heading. And it isn't. We can literally see the debate on some polls. Right. This is this one. You
Carter: know, the mythology of this election was written three weeks ago. The mythology of this election isn't going to be written because of the debates on the 24th and 25th of February. Okay,
Corey: so listen, I think that if I'm Mark Carney, my one worry is actually probably the grocery thing, and how that plays in the Quebec market. Like, I don't think it's going to be in an English debate, or sorry, English advertisement for the Conservatives, because it would just be a little bit too awkward. And with like the subtitles, people be wondering what's going on. But it does feel like the kind of thing that could be taken out of context and just drummed around to say like, the banker doesn't know and the banker's entitled and all of this, right? Right. So I need, you
Zain: or sorry,
Corey: know, I need, if I'm him to have a pretty good answer, pretty quick to put this to bed pretty fast and say like, you know, it's a, it's about a question about a family of four. I had a family of six. I have four kids. I think he has four kids, right? Steven? I
Carter: have no idea. I have to really read his bio.
Corey: have to really read his bio.
Corey: I, you know, I have family six, they're older. It's yeah. I'm not quite like,
Carter: like, I can't, you know,
Corey: know, I wasn't doing the math and trying to determine how much teenagers eaten all of that at the time. And yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of a silly question or whatever. I'm not even sure that's the right answer, but I think you need to start cobbling together some things based on your experience and maybe even illustrating your own experience throughout them there. Because the last thing you want is to be stuck with it again or to have an unsatisfactory answer when somebody asks you about it next time. And that's just an attempt to minimize damage as much as possible. But does it have legs?
Zain: based on
Corey: That really depends. That depends on how the conservatives want to use it. That depends on how the campaign unfolds. that depends on how the conservatives want to paint carny and um that's
Corey: that remains to be said uh
Zain: uh cory what do you want to say about the video you you had an oh interesting about the new carny ad ad slash video that they posted today yeah
Corey: yeah so people should go and maybe take a look at it it's a video that is narrated by his daughter which effectively says uh
Zain: which effectively
Corey: they're going to say a bunch of stuff about my dad and that's basically because they're scared and you know he's the hardest working guy i know and he's going to work for canada that's the summary of the the crisis yep good
Zain: summary of the the crisis yep
Corey: in a crisis um what
Corey: i found interesting about it is it starts with
Corey: the attacks against him it repeats the classic repeats
Zain: it repeats the classic repeats
Zain: repeats
Corey: repeats the charge like and you know it's so interesting i think a lot because that is such like generic advice i think a lot about what our friend dan arnold who has a rival podcast so now our enemy dan arnold i guess he does four
Zain: he does four episodes in four weeks what what a fucking loser
Carter: episodes
Corey: loser
Zain: loser i'm
Corey: loser i'm
Zain: i'm
Zain: i'm seeing him tomorrow i'll make sure i say that on stage yeah tell him i hate him good um actually i'm gonna clip this i'm gonna play it for him okay
Corey: yeah tell
Corey: um
Corey: um actually
Corey: this i'm
Zain: okay
Corey: okay
Zain: okay
Corey: uh yeah yeah he's i remember there was an ad in 2015 where uh justin trudeau was doing a walk and talk and basically saying like people say i'm not serious or whatever right and he and then he basically flipped to but i am i can't remember the ad it was so long ago but like you know he took the charge head on and then he rebutted it and i said to dan at the time or somewhere nearby i said that ad seemed crazy to me like the whole ad was the charge you repeated the charge and he said yes but everybody in canada knew the charge like that was the big difference like the lightweight charge was so broad it felt like it didn't risk anything to repeat the charge repeating the charge is only a problem if people haven't heard the charge if people have heard the charge not a problem and i really think about that a lot and i think that's pretty sound advice that dan gave but
Carter: the charge
Zain: charge and
Zain: it felt
Corey: i'm
Corey: not sure this is the same like it just rattled off like four or five different different charges like in like video on top of each other and said oh you're gonna hear all these things about my dad doesn't rebut any of them and just moves on right and my dad's very stingy with the allowance uh
Zain: my dad's very stingy with the allowance
Corey: uh yeah
Zain: yeah
Corey: yeah call
Zain: yeah call
Zain: call
Corey: call
Zain: call him carbon tax call him carbon tax party at home
Corey: tax call him carbon tax party at home
Corey: yeah that's what we call him at home too yeah that
Zain: that actually a better ad that
Corey: that actually a better ad
Corey: would be a better ad of his
Zain: be a better ad of his family repeating the charge against him at home just
Zain: at home just in different he gave me
Corey: in different he gave me allowance but he charged me every time i wanted to take the car somewhere because of the emissions profile but he gave me more allowance it's the weekend we should hang out and he
Zain: allowance it's the weekend we should hang out and he was just so busy advising justin trudeau all night and all day that
Zain: that would actually be fuck well that'd be good put us on retainer cory and i we're good yeah put us on retainer yeah we got this no i i'm
Corey: that'd be good put us
Carter: no i i'm just writing down right now how great you two are
Corey: okay
Zain: okay
Corey: okay i'm just saying i found it i you know it was interesting to throw all of those charges out there like that now don't know the audience maybe the audience is just liberals i assume it is because we're in a leadership contest but that was um that
Carter: i'm just saying i found
Carter: was
Corey: that was why i said i thought it was a bit of an interesting carter
Zain: carter anything you want to you want to throw on there or can i move to the conservatives and then because we still have to cover um ruby
Zain: ruby dala who's suggesting that no uh people of color will be able to run ever again and this is a disappointment to all of us
Carter: no i thought when you said you were going to move on to the conservatives and ruby dala you were talking about ruby doll is actually a conservative let's
Zain: let's start there is ruby dot like conservative plant that tried to run in this leadership race carter yeah
Carter: there is
Carter: well no she wasn't a conservative plant she just was a fucking conservative lunatic i mean her platform made it sound like she was uh she was running for the conservative party of canada not the she had a whole lady trump
Zain: she had a whole lady trump sort of not
Carter: trump
Zain: not
Carter: not just
Zain: just
Carter: just persona
Zain: persona like uh but
Carter: persona like
Corey: like uh
Corey: but but but but profile she's was for those who don't for
Zain: those who don't for those who don't know just just ahead of this debate in in uh in french and then the english one tomorrow night she was told that there was a numerous serious violations that her campaign uh had um conducted and and was kicked out of the race uh incredible moment
Corey: know just just ahead of
Carter: moment
Zain: moment moment she heard about on cbc incredible moment with david cochran where she hears about it on there um and cochran breaks the story then gets a statement she hasn't by the way she doesn't know about the story yet she knows that she had an interview earlier that she doesn't know about the story tweets back at him uh about the fact that she hasn't heard anything uh and that what do you know that i don't know shows up on air and while she's saying she doesn't know anything they send him a statement in which he reads to her on air which is an incredible moment that people people should watch and like a fucking epic great journalism by cochran um from from cbc just like getting that one story getting the interview and then breaking it to her live on air um that aside cory she finds out on air the
Carter: moment moment she heard about on cbc incredible moment with david
Zain: question i have for you and i really put your like
Zain: executive director hat on how did she why was she in the race to begin with yeah
Corey: yeah like i
Zain: like i just don't understand this Like, it's not like Ruby Della is not a person who doesn't have a political past that has also been checkered with, you know, things that
Corey: that you would think accusations and things
Zain: and things you think would make her not viable to seek this office. Well,
Carter: things
Corey: I think the party parties are always pretty reticent to exclude people from the race without very good reason. Right. And what I think is interesting about it is they did exclude one candidate. date yeah they didn't exclude that they
Carter: yeah they didn't exclude that they
Corey: they
Zain: they
Corey: they they excluded a sitting mp but they didn't exclude her but i think because she had been the deputy prime minister the um the feeling was it might be a little awkward you don't necessarily want to do that and so let's just see where this goes and certainly there was probably a feeling that it wasn't a very serious run and then it's like well she'll get the if she gets the 50 000 then she gets the 50 000 and it becomes well if she pays is the deposit? And at a certain point, they probably said, holy fuck, how is she paying these deposits? And I think that partly became a bit the issue, because then they start going into where's the fundraising for this campaign going or coming from? Where's the financing? And things play out as they will.
Carter: they
Zain: they they
Carter: they
Corey: It's not a great look for the party. And it's very challenging to imagine
Corey: that they didn't sort of regret that they had put the gates up earlier. But my gut says, they just thought she'd never get over those hurdles and then when she did it became like something that needed to be addressed and so i think a good lesson in well no you've just got to apply your rules and you've got to assume that they're going to move through it you can argue
Corey: the rules worked because they did investigations and they found apparently malfeasance it hasn't been proven in any court but you know that's certainly what the party is suggesting and so that's why she's out of the race but it's awkward for the party and i guess the last thing i'll say is it's not a great look that you kick somebody out of the race right after they pay the last of their deposit that's
Carter: that's exactly what i was going to bring up i mean yeah there's the money 50,000 yeah
Corey: yeah there's
Zain: there's the money 50,000 yeah yeah yeah yeah
Zain: yeah
Corey: yeah
Zain: yeah
Carter: yeah 350
Carter: 350,000 reasons for ruby dollar to be allowed into the race um you know it's one it's it's the same reason that frank bayless is there it's the same reason i mean i karina gold i mean i could i could drag her down but i'm i mean there's not five six legitimate people who are running for the leadership of this race. And the $350,000, you know, that was the obstacle. The fact that she was able to raise all that money is a major red flag. And I'm sure that the party had a pretty good grip on how much money she was able to raise through traditional means. But this is a hard thing to do. I
Corey: 350
Carter: was shocked that they did it immediately Immediately after she paid the or not immediately, like not within the next hour or two. But the fact that this this unfolded when it did, when really her
Carter: her right off the bat, her initial conversation, her initial party, her initial positions were such that they were obviously out of line with the Liberal Party of Canada. That would have been my reason and rationale for letting her leave the leadership race and not
Carter: not allow for the financial malfeasance to actually occur. Now the Liberal Party of Canada may be in receipt of funds that
Carter: that they shouldn't be in receipt of.
Corey: Yeah, they might actually have to. That's a great point, Stephen. They might not be able to keep the money if their accusations are legitimate. Right, that
Zain: Right,
Zain: that the money was
Corey: was not justified.
Zain: was not justified. Yeah, it's going to
Corey: Yeah, it's going to have to be returned to the donors because they were illegal campaign contributions. But that's just one of, I'd say, three problems the liberals have right now. There is the look of like the money going right to the end there, maybe a little bit undone by problem two, which is they'll probably have to return that money. and then i mean okay problem three is a little bit of a longer well let's call it four problems problem three of the accusations that you alluded to of her saying well it's because i'm like a you know a woman a racialized woman that's why i'm not allowed in the race right and then problem four is
Zain: money going
Corey: the way the liberals run their race there were 400 000 people who signed up to be eligible for this contest but there's then a second hurdle which is you need to show id and it's i would would describe as a high friction exercise right a lot of attrition tons of
Zain: lot of attrition tons of
Corey: of attrition and so i guarantee you even though i don't believe any kind of you know sane commentator would believe it they're gonna have you know let's just say for fun fewer than 50 of the members actually get through the process yeah yeah yeah
Carter: the members actually get through the process yeah yeah yeah she's
Corey: she's
Corey: she's gonna claim the other 50 would have voted for her but they were so disgusted by her being out of the race and look at the attrition from 400 000 to to the actual 150,000 voters. That's interesting. That's a problem.
Zain: That's interesting. That's a problem. That's interesting. I never thought about that. It would be natural, but she's going to take credit for it, so to speak.
Corey: That's interesting.
Corey: natural, but
Corey: She'll say this is just an example of people saying this was a rotten contest, and then she'll get to be a commentator and make this commentary in all sorts of places. We already know she has some access to funds to push that message out there. So
Zain: there. So it's
Corey: it's a bit of a problem. Carter,
Zain: Carter, get in on this around the problem that the liberals have created for themselves And tag on this question, which is, how do the conservatives pour gasoline on this, or do they? Right? The extreme version of the conservatives pouring gasoline on this is, we adopt her as one of our own, we make her a candidate, we do all that sort of stuff. That seems a bit too far strategically. Maybe it isn't, though. Give me a sense of how the conservatives kind of, she's very much aligned in terms of policy proposals to a more sort of
Zain: populist conservative of the moment style. So how do the conservatives kind of maximize the pain that this causes for the liberal institution, if not the new prime minister once he or she is appointed elected?
Carter: Well, I think that this is exactly – I
Carter: I think that the conservatives could bring her into their – in as a candidate. Would you advise that? Of
Zain: Would you advise that? Of
Carter: course I would.
Zain: Come
Carter: Come on, you would not.
Zain: Come on, you would not. Let me take the opposite of that. Oh, yeah. Let me
Carter: take the opposite of that. Oh, yeah. Let me tell you why. He's
Zain: He's sounding so insincere, but go ahead. Make the devil's advocate. go ahead go ahead let me
Carter: advocate. go ahead
Carter: let me tell you why jesus
Zain: jesus because she's
Carter: because she's
Carter: she's a nutcase and
Carter: they feel most comfortable with that there
Corey: there we go okay there it is there we are that's that's what it was that's what we're waiting for we're waiting for appreciate
Carter: there it
Carter: was that's what we're waiting for we're waiting for appreciate
Corey: it that's
Zain: it
Carter: it
Zain: it that's
Zain: that's good cory cory do you want to take the opposite
Carter: cory cory
Corey: opposite of that point
Zain: point
Corey: point
Zain: point
Corey: point
Zain: point yeah
Corey: yeah i guess i will oh they're
Zain: will
Carter: will oh they're
Carter: they're not nutcases oh okay okay cory i mean whatever
Carter: whatever they're
Corey: they're not going to want to take somebody else's problem like i think that if you you know nothing else about ruby dolla you know that she's had a couple of problems with her political party in the past and so why would you do that to yourself it's like it's it's like so many other times in canadian history where somebody has been difficult and crossed the floor and then the people who you know get that sugar high of getting the candidate that day say fuck what did we do oh my god there's a reason they couldn't get along with their caucus or danny williams in newfoundland i'm not saying every floor crossers like this by the way but i'm I'm just saying it happens.
Zain: Yes, it does. I think that's a very good point. Political
Corey: Political parties, they
Zain: Political parties,
Corey: they should be very cautious of things like that. And Danny Williams was everybody's friend sticking it to Harper, right? How
Zain: How would you maximize pain, though? If you're the conservatives, you don't adopt her as one of your own, okay. What else do you do, if anything?
Corey: I mean, you can
Corey: reference it. I don't think you want to go as far as platform her, like bring her up on stage with you. But you can certainly say, and you saw what they did to Ruby Dalla there. And listen, I don't agree with a lot of what Ruby Dalla has to say here. But she was deputy prime minister. She was a big part of the Liberal Party. And they just put her out of the way because she got in the way of carbon copy Carney and his carbon tax and all of the things he wanted to do. And he'll do it to you too. This is what the liberals do. The liberals manipulate. The liberals are the establishment that is just going to get what they want, no matter what's right for you or anybody else around them.
Corey: It becomes just another story in the story chest. It doesn't need to be –
Corey: the story doesn't require her to be there, right? In fact, in many ways, it's better if she's not because the story can evolve in all sorts of ways that are helpful to you, referencing the idea of Ruby Dalla as opposed to the reality of Ruby Dalla, which
Corey: which I think we can all agree is a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to electoral politics. Carter,
Zain: let's move on to the Conservatives. Tariffs are now coming, according to Donald Trump. We just discussed this March
Zain: 4th. How
Zain: are they doing? How are they doing in their big pivot? They've done the Canada First rally. They've done the, you know, the adoption of the new sort of ballot box question. They said they're going to stick with their old ones. Axe to tax is still here to stay. You know, great. Totally rad, I would say. um but but
Carter: was just gonna say i'm not sure that the pivot's been been successful well it's you
Zain: well it's you know what's interesting is that it takes them a long fucking time it's really interesting they they were they were so laser focused for two years that that the pivot still is like happening in front of our eyes so to speak um at least in terms of what they're looking at tariffs are now here they're the the questions on trump has not cured this problem for pierre paulieff he at least doesn't seem like um what
Zain: are you thinking about tonight if you're if your team jenny burn pierre polyev if you're the conservatives they're clearly spooked articles in the hill times and other places saying like yeah we're definitely losing support like this is definitely overshadowing anything we've been talking about for the past two years so yeah this is having ramifications the polls are now converging lack of a better term like showing that this is a race carter
Zain: you tariffs are now coming you're not going to be able to magic wand this away and go back to the carbon tax election, or perhaps simply just a domestic election? What are you thinking tonight? What are you doing tonight? That's what I'm interested in.
Carter: Well, I think that the conservatives are actually thinking tonight, how do we keep it where we need it to be?
Carter: Right? How do we keep the question on the actual, in
Carter: in the space that we win? And I'm not sure that Jenny Byrne and Pierre Polyev have figured out that there might be another question on which they win.
Carter: So I think that where they are is we know we can't win on captain canada that is a losing proposition for us but we we have been successful in winning on carbon tax carne let's double down on carbon tax carne let's keep that as our primary message we'll put canada first in the window but we're going to um campaign
Carter: campaign in the same fashion and that to me i'm
Carter: not seeing the giant pivot saying i'm I'm not seeing the big shift. I'm seeing instead the double down on the existing message, double down on the existing positioning. There is there is not much in the way of shifting. And I'm not entirely sure that that's wrong. I think that the double down has has been a long standing technique. um if donald trump uh starts to be the boy who cried wolf and and and starts to um you know push it from march the 4th to to april the 2nd from april the 2nd to um you know to to may the 5th um
Carter: um if every if if every step of the way those
Carter: those tariffs start getting further and further away for canadians then maybe we start worrying about the the trudeau liberals being taken over by by um you know carney who is who's trudeau it's just a mini me of trudeau and um wasn't it ruby dollars ad that did that made uh uh
Carter: uh yeah well ad
Corey: yeah well ad is generous but yeah okay meme
Carter: okay meme social
Corey: social um but this
Carter: this is i
Carter: i i think that doubling down in
Carter: in the with with a short window uh
Carter: uh to define a new question doubling down might be the best the best course of action okay well
Corey: i don't you know we talked talked about this last time on the on the patreon yeah yeah
Carter: yeah we
Corey: we went in a little bit but i think um
Carter: we
Corey: i carter said doubling down then too and we just moved on i didn't get a chance to say but i don't think he's doubling down like when you look at his ads i would say he is easing out of his past message but he doesn't want to look like he's pivoting i think he's just almost too proud to say he's pivoting on this
Zain: to say he's pivoting on this point can i ask you guys did you guys see that 60 second spot he ran during four nations yeah absolutely
Carter: absolutely
Zain: absolutely carter did you see this
Carter: carter did you see this uh
Carter: what's the four nations okay just
Zain: just now you're pissed so
Corey: so i i saw it and i mean you might be alluding to that with your with your that's exactly it's the thing that's in my mind right now where he talked about it starts with all of the things he's been saying like i can imagine constructing that out in the room i can imagine saying okay we've got to move from message track a to message track b and we want to do it in an artful way that can take as much of the sentiment that we've built up around message track a to message track be with us so we're going to start this 60 second spot and you only really buy a 60 second when you want to tell a story right we're going to take this 60 second spot
Zain: saw it
Carter: mind right now where
Zain: story right
Zain: like where are you staying that
Corey: where are you staying that
Corey: fifth ambulance yeah there's a lot of ambulance hospital okay i'm
Zain: yeah there's a lot of ambulance hospital okay i'm
Carter: not gonna lie this is a different hotel that i've been in before what is
Zain: what
Zain: is going on i didn't mention it the first four times yeah
Corey: yeah i tried to avoid it it's
Carter: tried
Zain: tried
Carter: tried
Zain: tried
Carter: tried
Zain: tried to
Carter: it's nerve of racking i've
Carter: i've seen a lot and
Carter: and it's not just since we've got on on the on the air uh there's been a number even before i
Corey: it's
Zain: it's
Corey: it's not just
Carter: feel safe though i feel safe that's
Corey: that's good what floor are you on not the first i hope 25th
Corey: 25th
Carter: 25th
Corey: 25th okay
Corey: okay good i'm not worried about you then 60
Corey: 60 second spot you start with uh hey let me remind you of all of the things i've said before maybe even the things that now look like i was very right about it because for example they're abandoning the carbon tax right Right. And now they're going to move into a space where they're telling a different message, you know, raising that flag, getting to that patriotism message as they're doing there, you know, showing him in that tight shirt, moving it up, like how, you know, how jacked he is and all of this. Like the image he's trying to show is one of strength. And so I do get the sense that he knows that the conversation has shifted. I think he doesn't want anybody to say that he shifted, but he's clearly shifting in my view. And I do think he's moving towards a message that's more about, we need a strong Canada. And these guys have made us weak. And that has put us in jeopardy now. And I can make us strong. And that, to me, seems like a pretty sensible version of a ballot box question for the Conservatives. Like, if it's who can protect Canada more, who loves Canada more, people
Zain: if it's
Corey: will disagree. You know, my cousin Cole and I get into this all of the time, right? He thinks anybody under 35 thinks the Conservatives are the people who protect Canada. I think the people over 35 think it's the Liberals and there's more of them. But they're, you know, I just think that that's a stronger, like, ground for them to stand on if you're the Liberals. But I think the strength one is an interesting variant on it, because I do think that the Conservatives come off as stronger, by and large. And so I think they're moving there, but I think they've made the decision to walk, not run, to their new message track. They know exactly how much time they have, and they're going to get there bit by bit, increment by increment over the next month.
Zain: And
Carter: And
Zain: I'm going to ask you a question that might seem
Zain: difficult to answer because it's almost philosophical. But you're saying – tell me if I'm right here, Corey. If the question is loving Canada, advantage liberals. If the question is protecting Canada, advantage conservatives.
Zain: I think that's a great summary. What if the question is just simply Canada?
Corey: Canada?
Corey: Well, that's not a question. That's just a word. No, no. That's a proper noun. But there
Zain: question. That's just a word. No, no. That's a proper noun. But there is something to be said about – the
Zain: the noise won't be able to talk
Zain: talk about loving and it'll be muddled. It'll just be about – the question will be about our country, right? People just described it as our country that is on the line and
Corey: about
Zain: loving it and protecting it are two ways of defending it or securing it or whatever you want to call it, right? If the question is just simply about the country, do you think that is a sword or a shield question for the conservatives based
Corey: it and
Zain: based on their recent history?
Corey: Well, I'll
Corey: just say based on polling, relative to the liberals, it's probably a shield question, right? Right. We do know that conservatives are far more likely to support the notion of a 51st state, like twice, more than twice, like it's 20 percent or something of the conservative base, as opposed to what, three, four percent of the liberal base. And as opposed to 10 percent of the Canadian population, that number brought up a lot by those conservatives. Yes, of course.
Zain: right? Right. We do
Zain: Yes, of course. And
Corey: And so I guess
Corey: guess if you force me to give an answer, I'd say advantage liberal based on the very limited polling we have. But, you
Corey: you know, that's in my – like, it's so funny you say that. I'm now thinking about it. Like, if this country is in such a panic, our ballot box question is just the name of country. Kind of. I think we're in a lot of fucking trouble. Completely possible.
Zain: just the name of
Zain: Kind of. I think we're in a lot of fucking trouble. Completely
Corey: Oh, well, I mean, it
Corey: sounds weird, but I'm not going to rule it out because it's been a weird year. Ballot box question
Zain: box question could be Canada.
Zain: Carter, write
Zain: write it up. Another Carter prediction. Do you want to co-author with me?
Carter: No, that was incorrect. Okay. it's
Zain: it's
Carter: it's
Zain: it's
Carter: it's not going to be canada uh
Zain: it's
Zain: uh fuck you we're gonna move it on to our over under our lightning round stephen carter um okay it's
Zain: it's it's nearly your bedtime so you want to get this thing going right i'm well i'm
Carter: i'm
Zain: i'm
Carter: i'm in
Zain: in
Carter: in vancouver
Zain: vancouver
Carter: vancouver
Zain: vancouver i
Carter: i
Zain: i
Carter: i don't know
Zain: know what it's like 8 30 i'm already with the amount of ambulances it's your permanent bedtime coming up very it's nice to do this final episode with you yeah
Carter: know what it's like 8 30 i'm already with the amount of ambulances
Corey: ambulances
Carter: yeah uh
Zain: uh you know carter uh overrated or underrated the political flavor
Zain: the political uh amp that four nations uh was worth overrated or underrated sorry
Zain: what was for me cory overrated or underrated the political juice that four nations produced uh
Corey: i think it's it's oh it's overrated in the sense that we're not talking about it even now it's underrated in the sense that if it had gone the other way i actually think it would have been pretty damaging to the canadian psyche you
Zain: underrated
Zain: you think so i
Corey: i
Corey: do i because you know there'd be some shitty tweet from donald trump and there would be you know this just general malaise that was carrying over anything but winning at hockey mattered in a way that it hasn't mattered in a long time because uh we just needed the fucking win and we needed to stick it in the guy's eye this is
Zain: i because
Carter: this is a hockey
Zain: is a hockey
Zain: hockey thing
Carter: thing
Zain: thing
Carter: thing
Corey: carl ask you a political thing
Zain: uh
Corey: uh okay
Zain: okay yeah in
Corey: okay
Zain: in or out on mr doug ford as we head into the final three days of the Ontario election. Has he run the masterful campaign you thought he would? It started on tariffs. No one really seems to have caught up to him on the polls. 20-point gap is what we are seeing most recently between him and Bonnie Crombie and the Liberals, high 40s and high 20s. In or out on what you've seen from Mr. Doug Ford?
Carter: Listen, you call an election in an anti-incumbent environment. You are poised to win the election with no real harm done. done uh your official opposition is going to change but really other than that uh there doesn't seem to be much to worry about um it's i've got to be in on doug ford i think that you know the guy called the campaign at the right time this is an anti-incumbent
Carter: moment and he's going to win in something vaguely resembling a landslide three
Zain: days away cory in or out on ford
Corey: garter said it all except for one thing which is it's even better than what he described because in addition to winning in an anti-incumbent environment by a huge margin likely the liberals by moving up into official opposition it makes it a lot harder for them to dump crombie who's a terrible leader so they're gonna be stuck with her a little bit more man if you get to choose your opponents like that i mean
Corey: way to go doug i mean you and i doug we've had our differences but boy did you win this round yeah
Zain: yeah okay cory um i'm
Zain: gonna stick with you for our next one jagmeet singh he's back in the news he's he's punched through i
Corey: punched through i
Corey: knew you were gonna bring this up well what
Zain: bring this up well what did you think i was gonna bring up i'm not curious
Corey: bring up
Corey: curious to his
Zain: his
Corey: his ad his ad this new ad okay so the box okay well maybe i'll bring up two things well
Zain: okay so the box
Corey: well because you said punched so if that was a coincidence it was a hundred percent of coincidence
Zain: it was a hundred percent of coincidence yes
Corey: yes but i have the power
Zain: have the
Zain: power of
Corey: of
Zain: of
Corey: of branding because you think i've absorbed it
Zain: branding because you think i've absorbed it because what i think about fighting i think i actually had a slightly different question related but slightly different but now i want to get your take on this jugmeet singh ad and that'll give carter enough time to watch it
Corey: yeah probably yeah
Corey: yeah
Zain: yeah he's not going to though okay i'll I'll summarize it, Carter. Jagmeet Singh is boxing against a trainer and saying he's a fighter. Okay, that's the ad. Talking about his past history, etc.
Corey: Yeah, now I know what you're thinking. Was this a liberal ad from 2015? No.
Zain: No.
Corey: Like most things the NDP do, it is rooted in that. But no, it was not. It was actually an NDP ad.
Zain: And just like that, Corey gave both a context to Carter and the answer I was looking for. Carter, any thoughts on the ad that you haven't seen? um
Carter: well i'm looking at i'm looking at the script right now because they posted the script online and
Carter: and yeah
Corey: and yeah it's a really substantive script it's good they posted it online you don't want to lose things like i'm a fighter i'm
Zain: yeah it's a really
Carter: really substantive
Carter: you don't want to
Carter: i'm uh i'm
Carter: disappointed zane even i'm disappointed let me ask you
Zain: let me ask you the actual question i wanted to ask you which is um recent ledger poll suggests he's going to stand at 14 points 12 if mark carney ends up being a liberal leader that's That's where his current polling is right now. However, that's not a polling question. I'm really curious on his new message that he's adopted. He said this at an SOS Medicare thing today, and it's also quoted in this article, where he says he's going to fight like hell to defend public health care. Talking about Donald Trump with his annexation of Canada, the first thing he wants to take away, and I'm paraphrasing this part, is your health care. He wants to take away the crown jewel of Canada, health care. Are you in or out, given all the limitations and all the shit you've given to Jagmeet Singh, are you in or out on this message track for Jagmeet Singh? And why? Corey, you are actively thumbs downing, like a Siskel and Ebert episode at 3 o'clock in an afternoon on TV. Absolutely, I am. Lay it on me, Siskel, and then we'll go to Ebert. Carter's a natural Ebert.
Corey: on TV. Absolutely, I am. Lay
Zain: No,
Corey: No, come on. I know how they got here, because I've worked with the NDP in the past. They were the government when I worked for the government. I know how they got there. they're the they're the creators of medicare they're the defenders of medicare this is how they're going to wrap themselves in the flag this is what they're going to do this
Zain: on.
Zain: this is their version of it correct seems to be
Corey: version of it
Corey: the thumbs down just so bad um it first of all it sounds like we're already the 51st state and you're trying to think about as a state how we contain and maintain health care second of all uh i don't it's not going to resonate explain like oh i'll explain it what do you mean carter will explain it he'll use small words too
Zain: i don't it's not going to resonate explain
Carter: basically what it it means zane is that um if you're in a if you're in a car crash and someone threatens to take away your your watch right the fact that you were in a car crash is actually the thing that you're going to remember
Corey: yes 100 perfect
Corey: perfect metaphor
Corey: metaphor i'm on board 100 i think it's far for perfect it
Corey: was It's the perfect metaphor.
Zain: was It's the perfect metaphor.
Corey: Perfect metaphor. So wait, I crash.
Zain: metaphor. So wait, I crash.
Zain: crash.
Corey: crash.
Corey: Carter, that was so good. Carter, bud, so good. 4
Zain: Carter, that was so good.
Corey: 4 to 11. That's the number. 4 to 11.
Zain: 4 to
Zain: 11.
Corey: 11.
Zain: 11.
Carter: 4 to 11. 4
Zain: 4 to 11.
Corey: 4
Zain: 4 to 11. 12.51 for cheese buns. Oh, 4-0
Carter: Oh, 4-0-1-1, and you can be live with the strategists. No,
Zain: No, that's... We're going to leave it there. You lost it again. That's a wrap on episode 1848, Jay of the Strategists. I'm just going to go with the very monotone. That's bad
Corey: lost it again. That's a wrap on
Corey: bad energy on the way out. I know it is,
Zain: the way out. I know it is, but
Zain: Carter's tired.
Zain: Oh,
Carter: Oh, I am. I'm going to straight to bed. My
Zain: name is Zane Belger with me as always Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter and we shall see you next time