Transcript
Zain
0:01
This is The Strategist, episode 1848. Jay, my name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, there's Stephen Carter, and of course, there's Corey Hogan. Hey, Carter. Yeah. Hey, Carter. What's the price of milk?
Carter
0:13
Oh, I don't know that.
Zain
0:14
What's the self-checkout code for bananas?
Carter
0:19
You guys just said it, but I still don't know it, because I wasn't even paying attention. Corey,
Zain
0:23
Corey, I suggest replacing the cost of milk, political question, and what does a carton of eggs costs with the self-checkout code for bananas i feel like that needs to be the new political litmus test for if you're a man of the people or a woman of the people running for elected office yay or nay so what say
Corey
0:41
like you're a code guy hey and self-checkout because i'm usually like a go to like the um the things that are most commonly used and it's right there bananas is oh
Zain
0:50
oh yeah no i'm a code guy 12 51 cheese buns 30
Zain
0:53
30 59 that's that's sort of myself It's self-explanatory crisp, which is a little bit of an elite apple. Okay.
Zain
1:00
Let's do the apple. Let's do the apple. A little bit of knowledge for
Corey
1:05
The bakery stuff is all store-dependent, but- No, 1251 is- Produce. 1251
Corey
1:11
a cheese bun. The coat- I bet you 1251- The coat tells you a bit about where it's from.
Zain
1:14
What do you mean, tells you where it's from? What the hell does that mean? If it's
Corey
1:17
it's got a three at the start, it's from east of the Mississippi, and if it's got a four at
Zain
1:21
start, it's from west of the
Zain
1:22
Why are we using the same metric as we use for counting seconds at a water fountain?
Corey
1:31
That's a great question. Unclear to me. Why
Corey
1:38
No, I got it. I got it. It was
Carter
1:39
was hilarious. It got funnier when you explained it. I'm just asking. I'm asking.
Carter
1:45
No. Why do you know this? It was great. Why do you know this? Carter, you can shut
Zain
1:48
shut the fuck up. We just told you what bananas were. And you couldn't repeat it. Carter, you should not be running for political office. I
Carter
1:56
I got it now, the third time.
Zain
1:59
what is it? What is it? Bananas, Carter.
Carter
2:02
Oh, I was just bravado. Yeah,
Zain
2:04
Yeah, that's good. Corey, should we jump into the fact that Ruby Della did not get to debate tonight, or should we jump to the fact that we all love and support Hamas? Which of these interests you
Corey
2:16
Okay, well, I really think that we should provide some context to everything that we've said to point, particularly- I don't see the reason,
Zain
2:23
reason, especially the bananas.
Zain
2:26
fine. Do you want to provide context or do you want to just dive into one of those two things?
Corey
2:31
The first of the liberal
Corey
2:34
Largely an uninteresting affair where we could all pick apart and pass judgment on the French of the various candidates who all probably speak French better than us. But, you know, we're not running to be prime ministers. So that's one thing. But in the debate, Mark Carney couldn't really answer what the weekly price of groceries was. Where the bananas comes from.
Corey
2:54
That's where the bananas comes from. And at some point he said, I think we all agree with Hamas when he meant to say on Hamas. That's a mistake that I would make even in my first language. I certainly could forgive it in the second language, but already blowing up the internet in the kind of looking
Corey
3:11
looking to be offended circles there. and um and the ruby dollar thing uh ruby's
Corey
3:17
ruby's gonna be next prime minister i don't know yeah
Corey
3:19
yeah almost certainly can
Zain
3:21
carter can i actually ask a question is is a misspeak in your second language is there a there there like
Zain
3:27
like is there actually some meat on the bone there or is this um or
Zain
3:32
or is this just a 15 minute story that doesn't actually have anything left in it by the morning time what do you think i
Carter
3:38
think in today's political environment everything is there's a there and everything because the outrage machine is is just so tuned and so on all the time that uh you know they'll this will be clipped and it will be cut and pasted and thrown all over the internet and elon musk's x will be uh awash with this type of clip because that's what we do now um regardless of the fairness of it it is uh it's what we do and you know what the the the question I would ask is why wouldn't liberals do the same thing to Pierre Polyev if Pierre Polyev made such a misstep? Absolutely, they would. Corey,
Zain
4:15
Corey, is there, like, I get what Carter's saying that this is what we do now. We've got a 24-hour, of course, news cycle for a long time, but we've, of course, got a rapid-fire social media environment in which you're producing content all the time. You're always looking for content. There's really no penalty if it doesn't stick. So, yes, there are folks within the conservative movement, third-party groups that are going to make hay of this but i'm really curious on the on the materiality of my question like you're in a debate with your in your second language um is
Zain
4:46
there a there there from the public's perspective to like and how they're thinking about this and analyzing it well
Corey
4:52
well i i do think it's a bit of a stretch that any sane human being is going to think that mark carney's on the side of hamas and like accidentally said what he believed right if there is a there there it is it is exactly the second language point the question is is his french good enough right and i think that there are certainly times
Corey
5:10
times tonight that christia freeland was clearly trying to push in that direction trying to nudge you know it's finishing his sentences at a certain point i can't remember the exact context but being like oh the word you're looking for is whatever yeah
Corey
5:23
um i'm sure she would love it if people were saying is mark carney's french good enough but i don't know that there is a there there like i said it's a fairly innocuous mistake what i actually can't get over like the french thing is what the french thing is that was always going to be the hurdle that mark kearney had yeah sure and the
Corey
5:41
the reality is that is probably one of the bigger challenges he has you know none of the candidates french is like super fluid but But what I can't get over, what I can't understand is why would the liberals put on a debate where the liberals pick the moderator and that moderator throw gotcha questions at the liberals? Like, I think in many ways, the more egregious one was like the grocery question. Like, is this fucking bar trivia? Like, we're trying to just say like, oh, no, sorry, answer's wrong. You know, like, I don't, what's the benefit? How do you win that question? It's designed to make people look out of touch. I cannot agree with you more. I
Zain
6:19
I did not watch the entirety of this debate, but even the body language of this moderator, Carter, seemed to be very much like, I'm going to try my level best to ensure none of you think I am one of you, i.e. a liberal, and I'm going to ensure that every question I ask you would be asked as if I were moderating a general election debate. My neutrality is unimpeachable, so to speak.
Zain
6:47
that the right move for the party here?
Zain
6:49
No. I got your take, Corey. Carter, what do you think?
Zain
6:54
Carter's take's the same.
Carter
6:55
I haven't had any thoughts in my brain for quite some time. I'm really thankful for Corey for answering the question. And
Zain
7:03
introduced the question, he answered it, and then he answered it when I asked him. And I told you what your answer is. Yeah, I
Carter
7:08
I mean, I feel like I could get a word in edgewise. Before
Zain
7:11
you do, just the code for bananas. Just before you start with that.
Carter
7:16
I really don't even care. um the the you know i i watched the debate pieces of it parts of it elements of it sections of it you did not watch the
Carter
7:26
didn't watch it at all i did watch some of it i did watch some of it and then i had to turn it off watch
Zain
7:30
watch any of it my
Carter
7:30
my colleague and i were watching it and we said it was giving us a headache because
Carter
7:34
because uh it was just too much but uh much french no it no
Carter
7:39
no not too much french too much both languages because we were watching the translated version and the translated version it was just it was it
Carter
7:46
it gets very annoying because you're listening to the english being spoken over the french and it's just it's just too much and of course i can't watch the french because i'm unilingual so how
Carter
7:58
how do you do with foreign
Corey
7:58
foreign cinema out of curiosity i
Carter
8:01
i read the subtitles like normal people do yeah
Corey
8:03
yeah very good what
Carter
8:04
what the hell is wrong with you you've never seen a subtitle but
Carter
8:09
this is the this is the uh you
Carter
8:11
you know i i think that the the moderator wanted to be seen as neutral and uh you know there's a degree of of acceptability in that because this is the person they're not just questioning the next leader of the liberal party they are questioning the next prime minister whoever wins this leadership will be the prime minister and and And by putting themselves forward as more objective, and I saw the body language. I thought the body language was interesting. But, you know, I think by making themselves more objective, more pushing on this person, I don't think that it was the slam-dunk opinion of Corey Hogan. I can see why they would have gone that way. Corey,
Zain
8:52
Corey, why was it a mistake? Carter, you're not defending the decision per se. You're saying you see the strategic reason in terms of why. Why? Corey, you've been the executive director of a party, right? You've run a political party. Why was this not the right call to pursue? Let's just assume what they were going for was neutrality and objectivity with their moderator.
Corey
9:13
Because the thing that a party needs to do before anything else during a leadership contest is no harm, do no harm. And you want to make sure that no matter what happens, the party overall is strengthened coming out of it here. And I get the appeal of going to a like a journalist so this is like a former tva host pierre jobin right i get that because it seems like they should be able to ask questions but i actually think the alberta ndp did it better where they found people who were ndp aligned and came in i'm just using that because it's the example that i can immediately most recently yeah yeah
Corey
9:45
of the day they care about the party and i think that matters um there is going to be an awful lot of opportunity for the people on the stage to try to take a round out of the other people on the stage there's going going to be an awful lot of opportunity for the media to do media things. But in terms of what the party is trying to do, the party is not trying to embarrass anybody. It's the same reason why you wouldn't create a, you know what, the best way to think about it is take it outside of a debate frame. Would you create rules that would embarrass people from a membership standpoint? Would you create rules that would embarrass people from an appeal standpoint? You wouldn't. If you thought you was doing, like imagine if the party sent a questionnaire around to everybody or did a pop pop quiz on something like this in any other setting, you'd say totally inappropriate. And I think parties need to think a little bit more about that because Carter is right. We do live in a world where everything gets taken out of context. And this isn't even that. This is taken in context. It's just an embarrassing thing. But parties need to be a little bit more guarded in 2025. This is not a clip that then dies. This is a clip that shows up everywhere. And it's not It's not a clip that one of the candidates foisted on the other. I think the liberals learned their lesson on that front from 2006 and Stéphane Dion and his, do you think it's easy to make priorities, right?
Corey
11:00
This is something that the moderator foisted on the liberals. And, you know, the party could have avoided that by picking a moderator who had the party's interests in mind. You know,
Zain
11:08
know, you make a good point. And of course, we've got back-to-back debates here, by the way. We should mention to our listeners, we've got Tomorrow Night in English. So, you know, you've got...
Carter
11:17
got... That's going to be easier for me to understand.
Zain
11:19
Well, you've got the ability to clean up. You've got the ability for Stephen Carter to understand. I assume you don't have the ability to change your moderator. But Carter, Corey makes some good points. And frankly, I'd say I'm pretty aligned with him in the sense that you don't want to create content for the other team.
Zain
11:35
And I think if the Liberal Party was worried about content being created tonight, it was worried about it from Chrystia Freeland, perhaps. And she didn't really give any big blows to Mark Carney. She didn't do what she did on the first week of the campaign going after Carney or saying certain things that could be clippable, usable by the conservatives. I believe that was a worry by quite a few in the Liberal establishment going into tonight and, frankly, heading into tomorrow night, too. And let's see. Maybe tonight people are going to take it easy. Tomorrow it's where the big barbs come out. So I'm not, you know, calling
Zain
12:04
calling the game just yet. However, I don't think anyone was expecting the moderator's sort of question line to trip folks up or to produce any content. If you were looking at this and through the lens of the Liberal Party tonight, would you be worried heading into tomorrow, Carter, around your strategy and the instructions you give for folks tomorrow night where you expect viewership to be higher, clipability to be higher, and frankly, the throughput of anything that comes out of that debate to be magnified significantly more as well.
Carter
12:35
Yeah, I'm just not going to let you drag me onto Corey's side of this argument. I'm still, you know, I'm still sitting here. You're
Zain
12:42
You're not giving any notes to the moderator tomorrow night after seeing what happened tonight. Actually,
Corey
12:45
Actually, I'm not giving any notes to the moderator. No notes. Either. No notes. I mean, you do not give a journalist notes. Because you've already selected a journalist. I
Zain
12:53
I assume they've selected a journalist for tomorrow night. Actually,
Corey
12:55
don't know who they have for tomorrow night. I assume it's a journalist too. If you talk slowly or just ask a regular Zane-length question, i'll google it and i'll find out no
Carter
13:03
no you know what fuck you
Zain
13:04
you when i try i'm not gonna ask any questions we're gonna do this in silence go ahead okay all
Corey
13:09
right well no yeah i didn't even start i know it's hard i didn't even start i know it's hard for you i know it's so
Zain
13:14
so hard for you it's dinner
Zain
13:16
dinner is like so difficult silence carter
Corey
13:19
watch how easy this is for us we're pros at this
Corey
13:22
okay well i don't i don't have it i don't know where to find it and i don't want to do it The
Zain
13:27
The whole point is you don't have to speak. Well, we could. No, no, we could
Corey
13:30
could do many things. We could just cut the silence out.
Zain
13:36
anything, Corey. Why are you looking up? You don't need to say anything. Hannah Thibodeau is
Corey
13:40
is the moderator. Wait, really? You mean like
Corey
13:44
I assume I do. Like the former CBC?
Zain
13:46
CBC? Is she now like
Corey
13:48
like a consultant? Global Public Affairs now,
Zain
13:54
Okay, then, okay, here's the... Okay, now, now, now do you give notes. Now do you give notes.
Carter
14:00
my point. The Liberal Party is going after this like they are interviewing and they are auditioning the next prime minister of the country. And this is, to me, a good choice. I think that some of the gotcha elements were probably uncalled for. I mean, the grocery thing is just annoying. You know, it's just, you
Carter
14:22
know, it just doesn't need to be asked. But nonetheless, I think that having a former journalist of her of Hanna Thibodeau's, you know, pedigree is a fantastic choice. And I hope that she does behave like she's moderating the prime minister's debate. I think that that's the the the the level that the this party should be aspiring to. And frankly, it means that the the candidates just need to do better. And so the only notes that I'd be giving are to the candidates themselves and making sure that their performance is better, because I don't think that the moderator was the one who was being judged.
Zain
15:02
Fine, fine, I'll move on. I get it. It's a fair point. Corey?
Carter
15:06
Thank you for not dragging me into his side again one last
Zain
15:10
time. Corey, what notes would you want to give to any or all of the candidates? Pick or choose anyone you want to start with. I mean,
Corey
15:18
mean, as a party, I'm not giving notes. No, you as
Zain
15:20
as Corey Hogan, political strategist, communications person.
Corey
15:26
Yeah. Okay. Well, my overall, hmm,
Corey
15:28
hmm, that's interesting. I think that the general consensus is Gold had a pretty good night. And so you've got to assume that she now feels like she's got to do the same. Freeland, probably the weakest on the stage. Bayless, surprisingly cogent, you know, and not that there was any reason to believe he wouldn't be but like nobody had him in the conversation right and uh and carney did carney carney was clearly in some ways the best prepared like he had the best packaged lines if that makes sense right yeah i thought freeland's package lines were a little bit weak um so i would say with uh carney it's you know don't stare so much at the camera it's stuff like that and it's you know be comfortable up there yeah it's funny to give people the line be comfortable up there but but I actually think he could take that line. Like he's been on enough big stages. You could say like, look, you're, you're over scripting yourself. Don't worry about it. Be loose. You got to be a little bit more loose, right? You're, you're a smart guy. You're an accomplished guy. Just roll with it.
Corey
16:30
This is the chance for gold really to make an impression. And for Freeland, it's like, this is, this is kind of like your last stand. You've got to, you got to bring something big. Freeland probably needs to come out swinging in a way she did not. Can we just
Zain
16:44
just zoom in on Freeland for a second before I get Carter's take on notes for candidates heading into tomorrow?
Zain
16:51
You've given me your take. Do you think she will swing big? Like, would you advise her to swing big or would you advise her to say, don't,
Zain
16:58
don't, don't, it's over? Like, you know what I mean? Because there is a cost that comes with swinging big, as we've just discussed.
Corey
17:05
You know, so I was talking, I was texting with a friend in the Liberal Party today or yesterday about exactly this. like do does freeland think it's so over that any damage she does is just damage or does she think she's still got a shooter's chance here and
Corey
17:22
that's not clear to me based on how she's acting even today right like i felt like she was trying to minimize damage at different points but um she
Corey
17:31
she wasn't entirely trying to minimize damage right like she was still willing to like throw a punch or throw a snide remark and i don't know that they were all super calculated to just not not cause trouble or strife for the party i
Corey
17:44
don't know um but but i also don't even know what she would do like it's easy to say in general terms oh you got to come out swinging well what does that look like yeah right
Corey
17:52
right yeah does it come out saying mark you can't speak french which is not true but i'm just trying to like create like the most aggressive thing like mark you can't speak french you don't know the price of groceries you have no business being on this stage like just just try to put like a stiletto between his ribs or what? Like, what does this look like? Carter, what does
Zain
18:10
look like? I'm curious what you would advise Freeland heading into tomorrow. Do you swing or do you not swing? And if you swing, what does the swing look like?
Carter
18:20
I don't think you swing for another candidate. I think you just, you double down on how good you can be. Focus only on your own internal capacity. And this isn't the opportunity to tear anybody down. This is an opportunity to build yourself up. To be clear, what do you mean? You're not going to tear anybody down.
Zain
18:36
down. You mean anyone else who's on that stage? No, you're not. Of course. Exactly. You can
Carter
18:39
can destroy Pierre Polyev. You can destroy Chugmintz. Donald Trump. You can go after them all day, every moment of the debate. But Chrystia
Carter
18:50
Chrystia Freeland needs to say, I'm going to be the best Chrystia Freeland. I'm not going to go after someone else. Okay, but. Frank Bayless gets to go after anybody he wants to. He's not relevant to the party the day after this leadership is over. karina gould is is someone who can't necessarily you know can take a few punches and throw a few punches a few jabs maybe but isn't someone that i would i would advise to go after carney or or freeland for that matter um and carney just to to cory's point the advice i would give to carney is is just relax right relax the only way you're going to lose this is if you don't relax if you You are so uptight and so difficult that people think, well, that guy doesn't have a soul.
Carter
19:36
But I'm not saying that that's what his performance was tonight. But the more relaxed he is, the better he is. And that's the Mark Carney that people want to see. And that's the advice that I'd be giving him if I was sitting there.
Corey
19:52
Okay. You kind of are sitting there, though. Are
Carter
19:55
Are you giving him that advice?
Carter
19:56
Come on now. It's not like I'm in Vancouver, for God's sake. That's
Corey
20:00
That's a great point. I'm on the
Carter
20:00
the other side of the country. But
Corey
20:02
But you reminded me of something. You reminded me of something about Freeland's performance, which is that I would say, I don't know, the first hour was her trying to show she's the tough one to stand up to Trump, right? Trying to show that she's the tough one to stand up to Polyev. And I think every time she tried to, Carney looked better at it than her, right? And so- Why? Why? I mean, I know you can't throw out your entire strategy at this point, but do
Corey
20:28
do you think you need to have the conversation if you're the Freeland campaign about how you at least shake it up so that when all of the pieces fall back down, people are kind of perceiving you? You ask why? Because of the experience he had, because of the way he was able to articulate his, you know, his expertise, because of the way he comported himself. He just seemed more like the guy who would give Donald Trump a hard time. him and
Corey
20:49
and and i you know ultimately this is fundamentally perhaps the the ur strategy problem that christia freeland made which is i'm the person who can most stand up to trump because trump doesn't like me right and
Corey
21:03
and and i can understand how she made that calculation but but her entire campaign flows from that point and i'm i'm pretty convinced at this point she's wrong like i'm pretty convinced that if that's the ballot question liberals go for mark Carney.
Zain
21:18
Carter, does she have enough time to change the ballot question? Because in some ways, they're both kind of leaning into the environment here, right? Which is, the Trump question helps the liberals, so we're going to lean into the Trump question. There hasn't tried to be a lot of nuance within the liberal leadership to say, which of the sub-Trump questions helps me, per se? Because I think they're all thankful that the question's not about the carbon tax, which, by the way, they've all said they're getting rid of, except Gould, who says she's going to freeze at a current level, so to speak, right? So I don't think either of them kind of have tried to be like, well, which sub-question about Trump benefits me the most? If you're Freeland, Corey's question. You're shaking up the board a bit heading
Carter
22:00
I think at the end of the day, this thing is going...
Carter
22:04
I think so. I think so. I mean, there was some polling that came out. I didn't see that. You sent a poll out today. I sent a tweet
Zain
22:10
tweet that had, like, subscriber-only polling, which i didn't have access yeah
Zain
22:15
knew you guys this is like a business we could have bought oh i mean why would we do that why
Carter
22:19
why would we i mean it was why would you buy
Zain
22:22
buy what you can
Carter
22:22
can get for free uh
Zain
22:23
uh which is why we're giving away one patreon subscription um are we well i already gave it away already this
Zain
22:30
this is my way of telling you guys that i gave it to but listen
Corey
22:34
listen like if freeland's campaign was i can be toughest with donald trump and people are not buying that The shortest distance to pivot to me seems to be, I can be toughest. And if that's going to be your thing, show don't tell and beat the hell out of Carney. To the overall point, I'm not even sure it's worth it at this moment. Do you beat the hell out of
Zain
22:54
of Carney or do you show on stage how you would somehow beat a shadow box against Trump or Polyev, right? Do you kind of almost think of them as a fifth person on stage and try to beat
Corey
23:05
beat the shit out
Zain
23:06
out of them? I
Corey
23:07
get it, but I feel like we saw at least an attempt at that. You thought that's what she was trying today. Yeah, I feel like that's what we got tonight.
Carter
23:13
Carter, you can't punch someone who's not punching you back, and
Carter
23:15
and Trump and Pierre Palliev aren't punching. So, you know, the only people that you can punch are the people on the stage, and there's really no way to go after Mark Carney, to go after— I mean, this is the problem with leaderships. Once you know that you're really in the dirt, it's
Carter
23:32
it's super hard to go after them. I mean, with Alison Redford, you know, Gary Marr was so far in front that we, you know, you'd be nuts to go after him. Absolutely nuts to go after him. You had to find a different way. And her mother died.
Corey
23:52
don't like what's being implied here at all. Not by me.
Zain
23:58
He brought it up. No, I don't. He started it. What did I say? And he never denies the rumors. was there
Carter
24:04
wasn't true in that conversation do
Zain
24:05
do would you like to go on the record and deny something for the first time why
Carter
24:09
why would i deny anything there's nothing to deny it's
Zain
24:12
fucking cat dancer it's great steven these are cat dancers um is there a limitation on how much you can attack polyev or trump tomorrow night we
Zain
24:24
we talked about how there's a limitation on the art how you do it uh how much you do it is there a limitation carter
Carter
24:34
not after he just came out again today and said that they they're going ahead fourth is the deadline right you know like that's that's coming up next week it's it's uh you know we haven't done anything egregious in the last month um we've been trying to figure out his the answers to his questions there are no answers to his questions so you may as well make fun of him the way the rest of the world is making You may as well go after him the way the rest of the world is going after him. Donald Trump is the enemy, and
Carter
25:03
may as well define him as such. I just don't think you're going to be as successful at that because Donald Trump's not punching back at Chrystia Freeland.
Zain
25:12
Corey, do you also agree that there's no limitation?
Corey
25:16
you can do it as much as you want. I mean, the Freeland campaign is basically already no limits on Trump. I think the Carney campaign basically is as well, although maybe in a little bit more banker talk. But yeah, to the point, looks like tariffs are back on. looks like the only thing that's happened in the last week that would change anybody's opinion about donald trump is has been to change it to the negative it was some of his commentary around the hockey game right plus let's not forget all of the other fucking stuff he's doing globally yeah we haven't talked about ukraine we haven't talked about you know
Zain
25:48
know all so i
Corey
25:49
i think it's it's kind of zero risk and insofar as there is an audience in canada who says oh boy i'd like somebody to play a little bit nicer they're not the people watching the liberal leadership debate right it's just it's they want somebody who's gonna make them feel good like there's a fighter who can take it to uh trump and uh polyev and and all of the people that are on their enemies list that they go to bed you know repeating the names of like that's that's what you want if you're looking at a leadership debate carter yeah
Zain
26:15
yeah agree or disagree with the following statement about to throw out there mark
Zain
26:19
mark carney goes to bed disagree mark carney goes to bed tonight maybe not so happy with the debate performance fine with the debate performance but gleeful that tariffs are back on
Carter
26:34
you know i don't think i disagree you're
Zain
26:36
you're gonna disagree okay
Carter
26:38
i'm gonna disagree because i don't think anybody's going to bed thinking you know what the the near destruction of the canadian economy is going to be good for me sure sure
Carter
26:52
I'm going to get it's nice to have something to punch again. You know, sometimes you want to hit a heavy bag and Donald Trump provides a heavy bag, right? Like he's like this is this is real crisis with real implications. And we've talked about how great politicians rise to the crisis, you know, and I think that Mark Carney could rise to this crisis. He put out
Zain
27:16
out a video today, voiced by his daughter, effectively saying, you
Zain
27:20
you know, my dad responds to crisis sort of thing, right? This is his
Corey
27:24
sort of thing. Interesting video. We
Corey
27:27
We can talk about it if you'd like
Corey
27:28
In a minute, maybe. Same
Zain
27:29
Same question to you.
Zain
27:31
Like, a different way of asking it, this is good news for the liberals, Corey. That the fight is back on. The fight is real. You don't have to manufacture it. You don't have to fight the ghost of it. You can fight the real thing. and you know at least it signals that the the the question of donald trump is not going away from the election season yeah
Corey
27:50
yeah it's slightly different than the way you phrased it with steven sure and so a little easier for me to say yeah i think it is he's mark carney going to bed gleeful the tariffs are back on court yes
Corey
28:00
yes or no yeah yeah no i don't i honestly don't think he is because he is um you know we're gonna have to deal with this in his wildest dreams like if everything goes his his way this is a challenge for the entire country but but i do think it's undeniable that this has changed the dynamic in canadian politics and we can argue about how much it's changed it but it's changed it and
Corey
28:23
and i but i do think there's a risk right like it's almost a reverse boy who cries wolf let me try this one on reverse donald trump says
Zain
28:31
says okay good yeah donald
Corey
28:33
donald trump says it's gonna be tariffs the
Corey
28:36
the whole world reacts markets react justin trudeau is giving speeches like you you know it's all happening and the drama is high canadians are talking about it it's a big deal seizing our imaginations donald
Corey
28:49
donald trump again today announced tariffs didn't
Corey
28:52
didn't feel the same energy already no
Corey
28:54
no i was gonna get
Zain
28:55
get to this this is
Zain
28:55
is interesting that you're going here yes yes yeah
Corey
28:57
yeah you you know all of a sudden it seems like yeah well he said that before and he backed out like there is a thing donald trump does which is is kind of a variant of another thing donald trump does the other thing is like he just pings around to every fucking crazy issue but he he does this thing where he dips his toe into an issue gets backlash pulls back dips his toe a little bit deeper gets a little bit less backlash and he just keeps going and going until there is no reactive outrage anymore and then he just plows forward with it and he's done this on a lot of things he's done this on everything from like january 6th to comments about you know ukraine during his first impeachment to you know comment comments basically about anybody in his orbit that he's had to disavow at any given time, right? And now he seems to be doing this with tariffs. Like, it's not going to remotely surprise me if he once again backs down and gives once again another two weeks or 30 days, whatnot. But the risk at this point becomes we stop, you know, we stop actually paying attention. We stop believing anything's going to happen. And so that's
Corey
29:59
that's something I think that Canadians need to be a little bit alive to here. It's very possible that because Trudeau can't go on the you know television and give that solemn like address every saturday you know between now and and you know whenever he's not prime minister anymore but trump can continue to just ping off crazy thoughts from his head so there's a bit of an asymmetry here and and canadian officials better be thinking right now about how they respond to this thing in an environment where his responses cost nothing and yours cost a lot of time and interest carter
Zain
30:30
carter this is transitioning transitioning away from tonight and tomorrow night's debate. So is there anything you wanted to add as, as, as footnotes to that before we kind of move away and start talking about Trump and the Polyev conservatives?
Carter
30:46
No, I mean, I feel like the debate here,
Carter
30:50
here, I mean, let me, let me play the role of moderator, Zane. Did anything change tonight?
Zain
30:56
Well, that's built into the fact that we don't even have to ask it. No, nothing changed. No. I mean, other than that,
Zain
31:01
That we're all proudly Canadians, every single one of us, with Hamas. Do
Carter
31:05
we anticipate change tomorrow?
Zain
31:09
Just more with Hamas tomorrow.
Corey
31:11
Now, if he says with Hamas again tomorrow night, I'm
Corey
31:14
I'm going to start to worry. I'm going to start to have some questions. Yeah, but I
Carter
31:17
I think that this is the challenge with debates. You
Carter
31:21
You know, the debates don't matter until the debates do matter. And I feel like today is one of those, the debates just didn't matter. I
Zain
31:27
I don't want to just let you get away with that. What do you mean by the debates don't matter until the debates do matter? You mean like, in hindsight, we'll find debate clips that end up matter? Like, what do you mean by that? I just want to make sure you have an opportunity to be clear on
Carter
31:38
on that. Most of the time, debates don't matter. And then every once in a while, the debate comes in and it's the big thing. It's the thing that shifts everybody. We often use the 2015 Rachel Notley.
Zain
31:48
But in mythology, though, right? Like, it's kind of like it's things have already been heading
Carter
31:52
heading us. It is and it isn't. We can literally see the debate on some polls, right? Right. This is this one.
Carter
32:00
You know, the mythology of this election was written three weeks ago. The mythology of this election isn't going to be written because of the debates on the 24th and 25th of February.
Corey
32:11
OK, so listen, I think that if I'm Mark Carney, my one worry is actually probably the grocery thing and how that plays in the Quebec market. Like, I don't think it's going to be in an English debate or sorry, English advertisement for the conservatives, because it would just be a little bit too awkward and with like the subtitles people be wondering what's going on um but it does feel like the kind of thing that could be taken out of context and and just drummed around to say like the banker doesn't know and the banker's entitled and all of this right so i need you
Corey
32:40
you know i need if i'm him to have a pretty good answer pretty quick to put this to bed pretty fast and say like you know it's a it's about a question about a family of four i had a family of six i have four kids i think he has four kids right steven i
Carter
32:56
i have no idea i can really read his bio i
Corey
33:00
i you know i have family six they're older it's yeah i'm not quite like i can't you know i wasn't doing the math and trying to determine how much teenagers eating all of that at the time and yeah i mean i think that's kind of a silly question or whatever i'm not even sure that's the right answer but i think you need to start cobbling together other some some things based on your experience and maybe even illustrating your own experience throughout them there uh because the last thing you want is to be stuck with it again or to have an unsatisfactory answer when somebody asks you about it next time and that's just an attempt to minimize damage as much as possible but does it have legs that
Corey
33:33
that really depends that depends on how the conservatives want to use it that depends on how the campaign unfolds that depends on how the conservatives want to paint carny and um that's
Corey
33:42
that's that remains to be seen cory
Zain
33:43
cory what do you want to want to say about the video you you had an oh interesting about the new carney ad ad slash video that they posted today yeah
Corey
33:50
yeah so people should go and maybe take a look at it it's a video that is narrated by his daughter yes it effectively says uh
Corey
33:58
they're gonna say a bunch of stuff about my dad and that's basically because they're scared and you know he's the hardest working guy i know and he's gonna work for canada that's the summary of the video in a crisis yep good
Corey
34:08
good in a crisis um what
Corey
34:11
what i found interesting about it is it starts with
Corey
34:14
with the attacks against him it repeats the classic it
Corey
34:17
it repeats the charge like and you know it's so interesting i think a lot because that is such like generic advice i think a lot about what our friend dan arnold who has a rival podcast so now our enemy dan arnold i guess he does four
Zain
34:33
what what a fucking loser i'm
Zain
34:35
i'm seeing him tomorrow i'll make sure i say that on stage with him
Zain
34:38
tell him i hate him good um
Zain
34:40
actually i'm gonna clip this i'm gonna play it for him okay
Corey
34:45
uh yeah yeah he's i remember there was an ad in 2015 where uh justin trudeau was doing a walk and talk and basically saying like people say i'm not serious or whatever right and he and then he basically flipped to but i am i can't remember the ad it was so long ago but like you know he took the charge head on and then he rebutted it and i said to dan at the time or somewhere nearby i said that ad seemed crazy to me like the whole ad was the charge you repeated the charge and he said yes but everybody in canada knew the charge like that was the big difference like the lightweight charge was so broad it felt like it didn't risk anything to repeat the charge repeating the charge is only a problem if people haven't heard the charge if people have heard the charge not a problem and i really think about that a lot and i think that's pretty sound advice that dan gave but
Corey
35:34
i'm not sure this is the same like it just rattled off like four or five different charges like in like video on top of each other and said oh you're gonna hear all these things about my dad doesn't rebut any of them and just moves on right and my dad's very stingy with the allowance uh
Corey
35:51
yeah call him carbon I
Corey
35:54
call him Carbon Tax Carty at home.
Corey
35:56
Yeah, that's what we call him at home, too.
Corey
35:59
actually be a better ad.
Corey
36:01
That would be a better ad. This is an ad of his
Zain
36:03
his family repeating the charge against him at home.
Zain
36:07
Just at home. Just in different
Corey
36:08
different contexts. Just the pure polyamory charges at home. That'd actually be very funny.
Corey
36:10
He gave me allowance, but he charged me every time I wanted to take the car somewhere because of the emissions profile. But he gave me more allowance to offset it. I was like, Dad, it's the weekend. We should hang out.
Zain
36:19
out. And he was just so busy advising Justin Trudeau all night and all day.
Zain
36:24
that would actually be fuck that'd be good Carter put us on retainer Corey and I we're good yeah put us on retainer yeah we got this no
Carter
36:31
no I'm just writing down right now how great you two are
Corey
36:37
I found it you know it was interesting to throw all of those charges out there like that now don't know the audience maybe the audience is just liberals I assume it is because we're in a leadership contest but that was that was
Corey
36:49
was why I said I thought it was a bit of an interesting Carter
Zain
36:52
Carter anything you want you want to throw on there or can i move to the conservatives and then because we still have to cover um
Zain
36:57
ruby dolla who's suggesting that no uh people of color will be able to run ever again and this is a disappointment to all of us no
Carter
37:04
no i thought when you said you were going to move on to the conservatives and ruby dolla you were talking about ruby dolla is actually a conservative let's
Zain
37:10
is ruby dolla a conservative plant that tried to run in this leadership race carter yeah
Carter
37:16
yeah well no she wasn't a conservative plant she just was a fucking conservative lunatic I mean, her platform made it sound like she was running for the Conservative Party of Canada, not the Liberal Party.
Zain
37:27
Party. She had a whole Lady Trump sort of, not
Zain
37:30
not just persona, but profile.
Zain
37:34
those who don't know, just ahead of this debate in French, and then the English one tomorrow night, she was told that there was numerous serious violations that her campaign had conducted and was kicked out of the race. Incredible
Zain
37:50
moment. Which she heard about on CBC. Incredible moment with David Cochran, where she hears about it on air. And Cochran breaks the story, then gets a statement. She hasn't, by the way, she doesn't know about the story yet. She knows that she had an interview earlier that afternoon. She doesn't know about the story. Tweets back at him about the fact that she hasn't heard anything, and what do you know that I don't know. Shows up on air, and while she's saying she doesn't know anything, they send him a statement in which he reads to her on air, which is an incredible moment that people should watch. Like a fucking epic great journalism by Cochran from CBC. Just like getting that one story, getting the interview, and then breaking it to her live on air. That aside, Corey, she finds out on air.
Zain
38:35
The question I have for you, and I really put your like executive
Zain
38:38
executive director hat on, how did she, why was she in the race to begin with?
Zain
38:44
Like, I just don't understand this. Like, it's not like Ruby Della is not a person who doesn't have a political past that has also been checkered with, you know, things that
Corey
38:55
that you would think— Yeah, accusations.
Zain
38:56
Yeah, accusations and things you would think would make her not viable to seek this office.
Corey
39:02
Well, I think the party—parties are always pretty reticent to exclude people from the race without very good reason, right? And what I think is interesting about it is they did exclude one candidate. Yeah,
Corey
39:14
Yeah, right off the bat. Yeah.
Corey
39:16
They excluded a sitting MP, but they didn't exclude her. But I think because she had been the deputy prime minister, the feeling was, it might be a little awkward. You don't necessarily want to do that. And so let's just see where this goes. And certainly there was probably a feeling that it wasn't a very serious run. And then it's like, well, she'll get the, if she gets the 50,000, then she gets the 50,000 and it becomes, well, if she pays the deposit. And at a certain point, they probably said, holy fuck, how is she paying these deposits? And I think that partly became a bit the issue, because then they start going into where's the fundraising for this campaign going or coming from? Where's the financing? And things play out as they will. No, it's
Corey
39:56
it's not a great look for the party. And it's very challenging to imagine that
Corey
40:02
they didn't sort of regret that they had put the gates up earlier. But my gut says they just thought she'd never get over those hurdles. And then when she did, it became like something that needed to be addressed. And so I think a good lesson in, well, no, you've just got to apply your rules and you've got to assume that they're going to move through it. you
Corey
40:21
the rules worked because they did investigations and they found apparently malfeasance it hasn't been proven in any court but you know that's certainly what the party is suggesting and so that's why she's out of the race but it's awkward for the party and i guess the last thing i'll say is it's not a great look that you kick somebody out of the race right after they pay the last of their deposit that's
Carter
40:42
that's exactly what i was going to bring up i mean yeah there's the money 50,000 reasons yeah
Carter
40:48
350,000 reasons for ruby dolla to be allowed into the race um you know it's what it's it's the same reason that frank bayless is there it's the same reason i mean i i karina gold i mean i could i could drag her down but i'm i mean there's not five six legitimate people who are running for the leadership of this race um and and the 350,000 dollars um you know that was the obstacle the fact that she was able to make to raise all that money is
Carter
41:16
is a major red flag and i'm sure that the party had a pretty good grip on how much money she was able to raise through uh traditional means um but this is a this is a hard thing to do um i
Carter
41:32
i was shocked that they did it immediately after she paid the or not immediately like not within the next hour or two but yeah the fact that this
Carter
41:41
this this unfolded when it did when really her
Carter
41:45
her right off the bat her initial conversation her initial party her initial positions were such that they were obviously out of line with the Liberal Party of Canada that would have been my reasoning rationale for for letting her uh leave the the leadership race um and
Carter
42:01
and not allow for the the financial malfeasance to actually occur now the now the liberal party of canada may be in receipt of funds that
Carter
42:10
that uh they shouldn't be in receipt of yeah
Corey
42:12
yeah they might actually have to that's a great point steven they might not be able to keep the money if their accusations are legitimate right that the money was not justified
Corey
42:21
yeah it's going to have to be returned to the to the donors because they were illegal campaign contributions but that's just one of i'd say three problems the liberals have right now there is the the look of like the money uh going right to the end there maybe a little bit undone by problem two which is they'll probably have to return that money and then i mean okay problem three is a little bit of a longer well let's call it four problems the problem three of the accusations that you alluded to of her saying well it's because i'm like a you know a woman a racialized woman that's why i'm not allowed in the race right and then problem four is the
Corey
42:57
the way the liberals run their race there were 400 000 people who signed up to be eligible for this contest but there's then a second hurdle which is you need to show id and it's i would describe as a high friction exercise right a lot of attrition tons of
Corey
43:13
of attrition and so i guarantee you even though i don't believe any kind of you know sane commentator would believe it they're gonna have you know let's just say for fun fewer than 50 of the members actually get through the process yeah yeah
Corey
43:28
she's gonna claim the other 50 would have voted for her but they were so disgusted by her being out of the race and look at the attrition from 400 000 to the actual 150 000 that's interesting that's a problem
Zain
43:38
problem i that's interesting
Zain
43:39
interesting i never thought about that right it would be natural
Zain
43:41
but she's gonna take credit for it so to speak she'll
Corey
43:44
she'll take she'll say this is just an example of like people saying this This was a rotten contest. And then she'll get to be a commentator and make this commentary in all sorts of places. We already know has some access to funds to push that message out there. You know,
Corey
43:57
so it's a bit of a problem. Carter,
Zain
43:58
Carter, get in on this around the problem that the liberals have created for themselves and tag on this question, which is how do the conservatives pour gasoline on this or do they? Right. The extreme version of the conservatives pouring gasoline on this is we adopt her as one of our own. We make her a candidate. We do all that sort of stuff. That seems a bit too far strategically. Maybe it isn't, though. Give me a sense of how the conservatives kind of—she's very much aligned in terms of policy proposals to a more sort of populist
Zain
44:28
populist conservative of the moment style. So how do the conservatives kind of maximize the pain that this causes for the liberal institution, if not the new prime minister once he or she is appointed elected? elected
Carter
44:44
i think that this is uh exactly uh
Carter
44:46
uh i think that the the conservatives could bring her into their in as a candidate would you advise that there is of
Carter
44:53
course i would come
Carter
44:55
come on you would not
Zain
44:56
not let me take the
Carter
44:57
the opposite yeah let me let me tell you why that's
Zain
44:59
that's he's sounding so insincere but go ahead make the devil's advocate okay
Carter
45:04
let me tell you why jesus
Carter
45:07
she's a nutcase, and
Carter
45:09
and they feel most comfortable with nutcases. Okay,
Corey
45:11
Okay, there we go. Okay. There it is. There we are. That's what it was. That's what we were waiting for. That's what we were waiting
Zain
45:18
Corey, do you want to take the opposite of that point? Yeah, I
Carter
45:22
Oh, they're not nutcases. Oh, okay. Okay, Corey. I mean, whatever.
Corey
45:28
They're not going to want to take somebody else's problem. I think that if you know nothing else about Ruby Dala, you know that she's had a couple of problems with her political party in the past and so why would you do that to yourself it's like it's it's like so many other times in canadian history where somebody has been difficult and crossed the floor and then the people who you know get that sugar high of getting the candidate that day say fuck what did we do oh my god there's a reason they couldn't get along with their caucus or danny williams in newfoundland i'm not saying every floor crossers like this by the way but i'm just saying it happens yes
Zain
46:00
yes it does and so i think that's a very political
Corey
46:03
they they should be very cautious of things like that and uh you
Corey
46:07
you know danny williams was everybody's friend sticking it to harper right how
Zain
46:12
how would you maximize pain though if you're if you're the conservatives you don't adopt her as one of your own okay what else do you do uh if if anything
Corey
46:20
mean you can reference
Corey
46:22
reference it you i don't think you want to go as far as platform her like bring her up on stage with you but you can certainly say and you saw what they did to ruby dollar And listen, I don't agree with a lot of what Ruby Dalla has to say here, but she was deputy prime minister. She was a big part of the liberal party and they just put her out of the way because she got in the way of carbon copy Carney and his carbon tax and all of the things he wanted to do. And he'll do it to you too. This is what the liberals do. The liberals manipulate, the liberals are the establishment that is just going to get what they want, no matter what's right for you or anybody else around them. right
Corey
46:57
right like it becomes just another story in the story chest it doesn't need to be
Corey
47:02
the story doesn't require her to be there right in fact in many ways it's better if she's not because the story can evolve in all sorts of ways that are helpful to you referencing the idea of ruby dala as opposed to the reality of ruby dala which
Corey
47:15
which i think we can all agree is you know it's a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to electoral politics carter
Zain
47:21
carter let's move on to the conservatives tariffs are now coming according to donald trump we just discussed this march
Zain
47:29
how are they doing how are they doing in their big pivot they've done the canada first rally they've done the you know the adoption of
Zain
47:37
of the new sort of ballot box question they said they're going to stick with their old ones axe attacks is still here to stay um you know great totally rad i would say um but but
Carter
47:52
i was just gonna say i'm not sure that the pivot's been been successful well it's
Zain
47:57
you know what's interesting is that it takes them a long fucking time it's really interesting they they were so laser focused for two years that that the pivot still is like happening in front of our eyes so to speak um at least in terms of what they're looking at tariffs are now here they're the the questions on trump has not cured this problem for pierre paulieff he at least doesn't seem like um what
Zain
48:19
what are you thinking about tonight if you're if your team jenny burn pierre polyev if you're the conservatives they're clearly spooked articles in the hill times and other places saying like yeah we're definitely losing support like this is definitely overshadowing anything we've been talking about for the past two years so yeah this is having ramifications the polls are now converging lack of a better term like showing that this is a race carter
Zain
48:43
carter you tariffs are now coming you're not going to be able to magic wand this away and go back to carbon tax uh election or or perhaps simply just a a domestic election what are you thinking tonight what are you doing tonight that's what i'm interested in well
Carter
48:58
well i think that the conservatives are actually thinking tonight how do we keep it where we need it to be right how do we keep the question on the on the actual uh in the space that we win and i'm not sure that jenny byrne and and And Pierre Polyev have figured out that there might be another question on which they win.
Carter
49:17
So I think that where they are is we know we can't win on Captain Canada. That is a losing proposition for us. But we have been successful in winning on carbon tax carne. Let's double down on carbon tax carne. Let's keep that as our primary message. We'll put Canada first in the window, but
Carter
49:36
but we're going to campaign
Carter
49:39
campaign in the same fashion. And that to me, I'm
Carter
49:42
I'm not seeing the giant pivot, Zane. I'm not seeing the big shift. I'm seeing instead the double down on the existing message, double down on the existing positioning. There is not much in the way of shifting. And I'm not entirely sure that that's wrong. I think that the double down has been a long standing technique. If Donald Trump starts to be the boy who cried wolf and starts to, you know, push it from March the 4th to April the 2nd, from April the 2nd to, you know, to May the 5th. um
Carter
50:19
um if every if if every step of the way those tariffs start getting further and further away for canadians then maybe we start worrying about the the trudeau liberals being taken over by um you know carney who is who's trudeau just a mini me of trudeau and um wasn't it ruby dollars ad that did that made uh uh
Carter
50:40
uh yeah well ad
Corey
50:41
ad is generous but yeah okay
Corey
50:44
social um but this
Carter
50:46
i i think that doubling down in
Carter
50:50
in in the with with a short window uh
Carter
50:53
uh to define a new question doubling down might be the best the best course of action okay well
Corey
50:59
well i don't you know we talked about this last time on the on the patreon yeah yeah
Corey
51:03
we went in a little bit but i think um
Corey
51:06
um i carter said doubling down then too and we just moved on i didn't get a chance to say but i don't think he's doubling down like when you look at his ads i would say he is easing out of his past message but he doesn't want to look like he's pivoting i think he's just almost too proud to say he's
Zain
51:21
he's pivoting on this point can i ask you guys did you guys see that 60 second spot he ran during four nations yeah
Carter
51:27
carter did you see this uh
Carter
51:30
uh what's the four nations okay just
Carter
51:32
just now you're pissed so
Corey
51:34
so i i saw it and i mean you might be alluding to that with your with your that's exactly it's the thing thing that's in my mind right now where he talked about it starts with all of the things he's been saying like i can imagine constructing that out in the room i can imagine saying okay we've got to move from message track a to message track b and we want to do it in an artful way that can take as much of the sentiment that we've built up around message track a to message track b with us so we're going to start this 60 second spot and you only really buy a 60 second when you want to tell a story right we're going to take this 60 second spot they're coming after you around you
Corey
52:08
like where are you staying that
Corey
52:11
fifth ambulance yeah there's a lot of ambulance okay i'm
Carter
52:16
i'm not gonna lie this is a different hotel that i've been in before
Zain
52:19
is going on i didn't mention it the first four times yeah
Corey
52:23
yeah i tried to avoid it it's
Carter
52:26
it's nerve wracking i've
Carter
52:27
i've seen a lot and
Carter
52:28
and it's not just since we've got on on the on the air uh there's been a a number even before i
Carter
52:36
feel safe though i feel safe that's
Corey
52:38
that's good what floor are you on not the first i hope 25th
Corey
52:42
okay good i'm not worried about you then 60
Corey
52:45
60 second spot you start with uh hey let me remind you of all of the things i've said before maybe even the things that now look like i was very right about it because for example they're abandoning the carbon tax right and now they're going to move into a space where they're telling a different message you know raising that that flag getting to that patriotism message as they're doing they're you know showing him in that tight shirt moving it up like how you know how jacked he is and all of this like the image he's trying to show is one of strength and so i do get the sense that he knows that the conversation has shifted i think he doesn't want anybody to say that he shifted but he's clearly shifting in my view and i do think he's moving towards a message that's more about we need a strong canada and And these guys have made us weak, and that has put us in jeopardy now, and I can make us strong. And that, to me, seems like a pretty sensible version of a ballot box question for the Conservatives. Like, if it's who can protect Canada more, who loves Canada more, people
Corey
53:43
people will disagree. You know, my cousin Cole and I get into this all of the time, right? He thinks anybody under 35 thinks the Conservatives are the people who protect Canada. I think the people over 35 think it's the Liberals, and there's more of them. But they're, you know, I just think that that's a stronger like ground for them to stand on if you're the liberals but i think the strength one is an interesting variant on it because i do think that the conservatives come off as stronger by and large so and so i think they're moving there but i think they've made the decision to walk not run to their new message track they know exactly how much time they have and they're going to get there bit by bit increment by increment over the next month so
Zain
54:23
so i'm going to to ask you a question that that might seem difficult
Zain
54:27
difficult to answer because it's it's it's almost philosophical but you're saying tell me if i'm right here cory if the question's loving canada advantage liberals if the question's protecting canada advantage conservatives i
Zain
54:41
i think that's a great summary what if the question
Corey
54:44
question is just simply canada like
Corey
54:46
like what that's not a question that's
Zain
54:49
proper noun but there is something to be said about the the noise
Zain
54:52
noise won't be able to talk
Zain
54:54
talk about loving and it just it'll be muddled it'll just be about the question will be about our country right
Zain
55:00
right people just describe it as our country that is on the line and
Zain
55:05
and and protecting it are two ways of defending it or securing it or whatever you want to call it right if if the question is just simply about the country do you think do you think that is a sword or a shield question for the conservatives based
Zain
55:18
based on their their recent history uh
Corey
55:23
i'll just say based on polling relative
Corey
55:25
relative to the liberals it's probably a shield question right we do know that conservatives are far more likely to support the notion of a 51st state like twice more than twice like it's 20 percent or something of the conservative base as opposed to what three four percent of the liberal base and as opposed to 10 percent of the canadian population that number brought up a lot by those conservatives yes of of course and
Corey
55:49
guess if you force me to give an answer i'd say advantage liberal based on the very limited polling we have but i
Corey
55:57
i you know that's in my like it's so funny you say that i'm now thinking about it like if this country isn't such a panic our ballot box question is just a country name of country kind of i think
Corey
56:09
we're in a lot of trouble completely possible
Corey
56:13
oh well i mean it sounds
Corey
56:15
sounds weird but i'm not going to rule it out because it's been a weird year about box
Zain
56:19
box question could be canada carter
Zain
56:21
write it up another carter prediction do you want to call you want to co-author with me no
Carter
56:26
no that was incorrect okay it's
Carter
56:28
it's not going to be canada uh
Zain
56:31
uh fuck you we're gonna move it on to our over under our lightning round stephen carter um okay it's
Zain
56:37
it's It's your earlier bedtime, so you want to get this thing going, right? Well,
Carter
56:40
I'm in Vancouver. I don't know what
Zain
56:42
what to do. Yeah, it's like 8.30. It's a little past his bedtime. I'm already tired. I mean, with the amount of ambulances, it's your permanent bedtime coming up. It's nice to do this final episode with you.
Zain
56:52
Well, you know. Carter, overrated or underrated? The political flavor,
Zain
56:59
flavor, the political amp that Four Nations was worth, overrated or underrated?
Zain
57:07
Sorry, what was Four Nations? Corey, overrated or underrated? The political juice that Four Nations produced.
Corey
57:12
I think it's overrated in the sense that we're not talking about it even now. It's
Corey
57:18
underrated in the sense that if it had gone the other way, I actually think it would have been pretty damaging to the Canadian psyche. You
Corey
57:24
I do. Because, you know, there'd be some shitty tweet from Donald Trump and there would be, you know, this just general malaise that was carrying over anything. But winning at hockey mattered. in a way that it hasn't mattered in a long time. Because we just needed the fucking win, and we needed to stick it in the guy's eye. This
Carter
57:43
This is a hockey thing.
Corey
57:46
Carl, I'll ask you a political thing.
Zain
57:49
In or out on Mr. Doug Ford as we head into the final three days of the Ontario election. Has he run the masterful campaign you thought he would? It started on tariffs. No one really seems to have caught up to him on the polls. 20-point gap is what we are seeing most recently between him and Bonnie Crombie and the Liberals, high 40s and high 20s. In or out on what you've seen from Mr. Doug Ford?
Carter
58:13
Listen, you call an election in an anti-incumbent environment. You are poised to win the election with no real harm done. Your official opposition is going to change. But really, other than that, there doesn't seem to be much to worry about. I've got to be in on Doug Ford. I think that, you know, the guy called the campaign at the right time. This is an anti-incumbent moment,
Carter
58:37
moment, and he's going to win in something vaguely resembling a landslide.
Zain
58:42
days away, Corey. In or out on Ford.
Corey
58:45
Carter said it all except for one thing, which is it's even better than what he described. Because in addition to winning in an anti-incumbent environment by a huge margin, likely the liberals by moving up into official opposition, it makes it a lot harder for them to dump Crombie, who's a terrible leader. So they're going to be stuck with her a little bit more. Man, if you get to choose your opponents like that, I mean,
Corey
59:09
mean, way to go, Doug. I mean, you and I, Doug, we've had our differences, but boy, did you win this round.
Zain
59:18
I'm going to stick with you for our next one. Jagmeet Singh, he's back in the news. He's punched through.
Corey
59:24
I knew you were going to bring this up. He's punched through. Well,
Zain
59:25
Well, what did you think I was going
Corey
59:26
going to bring up? I'm not curious. His ad. His ad. This new ad where he's boxing. Okay, so the
Corey
59:30
box. Okay, well, maybe I'll bring up two things.
Corey
59:32
Well, because you said punched, so if that was a coincidence. It was 100
Zain
59:35
coincidence. Yes, but I have seen- That's the power of branding.
Corey
59:37
branding. I have seen that. Because you think about
Zain
59:39
about- I've absorbed it. Because when I think about fighting, I actually had a slightly different question, related but slightly different. But now I want to get your take on this Jagmeet Singh ad, and that'll give Carter enough time to watch it.
Zain
59:51
Yeah, he's not going to, though. Okay, I'll summarize it, Carter. Jagmeet Singh is boxing against a trainer and saying he's a fighter. Okay, that's the ad. Talking about his past history, et cetera.
Corey
1:00:01
Yeah, now I know what you're thinking. Was
Corey
1:00:02
Was this a liberal ad from 2015? No.
Corey
1:00:05
Like most things the NDP do, it is rooted in that. But no, it was not. It was actually an NDP ad. And
Zain
1:00:11
And just like that, Corey gave both a context to Carter and the answer I was looking for. Carter, any thoughts on the ad that you haven't seen?
Carter
1:00:20
Well, I'm looking at the script right now because they posted the script online. Yeah,
Corey
1:00:27
Yeah, it's a really substantive script. It's good they posted it online. You
Corey
1:00:31
want to lose things like I'm a fighter. I'm
Carter
1:00:35
disappointed, Zane I'm disappointed in this ad Let me ask you the
Zain
1:00:38
the actual question I wanted to ask you which is recent Legit polls suggest he's going to stand at 14.12 if Mark Carney ends up being a liberal leader, that's where his current polling is right now, however that's not a polling question, I'm really curious on his new message that he's adopted, he said this at an SOS Medicare thing today and it's also quoted in this article where he says he's going to fight like hell to defend public health care Talking about Donald Trump with his annexation of Canada, the first thing he wants to take away, and I'm paraphrasing this part, is your health care. He wants to take away the crown jewel of Canada, health care. Are you in or out, given all the limitations and all the shit you've given to Jagmeet Singh, are you in or out on this message track for Jagmeet Singh? And why? Corey, you are actively thumbs downing, like a Siskel and Ebert episode at 3 o'clock in an afternoon on TV. Absolutely,
Zain
1:01:29
Absolutely, I am. Yeah, lay
Zain
1:01:29
lay it on me, Siskel. and then we'll go to ebert carter's the natural ebert no
Corey
1:01:34
no come on like
Corey
1:01:35
like i i know how they got here because i've i've worked with the ndp in the past they were the government when i worked for the government i know how they got there they're the they're the creators of medicare they're the defenders of medicare this is how they're going to wrap themselves in the flag this is what they're going to do this
Zain
1:01:49
this is a version of
Zain
1:01:50
it correct seems to be the
Corey
1:01:53
the thumbs down just so bad um it first of First of all, it sounds like we're already the 51st state, and you're trying to think about, as a state, how we contain and maintain health care. Second of all, it's not going to resonate. Explain it. Oh, I'll explain it.
Corey
1:02:09
Carter will explain it. He'll use small words, too.
Carter
1:02:14
Basically what it means, Zane, is that if you're in a car crash and someone threatens to take away your watch, right? Right? The fact that you were in a car crash is actually the thing that you're going to remember.
Corey
1:02:34
100%. Perfect metaphor. I'm on board. 100%. I think it's far for perfect.
Corey
1:02:42
It was the perfect metaphor.
Corey
1:02:43
Perfect metaphor. So wait, I crash
Corey
1:02:45
and then someone walks by. Carter, that was so good. Carter, bud, so good.
Corey
1:02:50
40-11. That's the number. 40
Zain
1:02:53
-0-1-1. 12-51 for cheese buns. Oh,
Carter
1:02:55
Oh, 4-0-1-1, and you can be live with the strategists.
Zain
1:02:59
No, that's... We're going to leave it there. You lost it again. That's a wrap on episode 1848, Jay of the Strategists. I'm just going to go with a very monotone... That's bad
Corey
1:03:06
bad energy on the way
Zain
1:03:07
way out. I know it is,
Carter
1:03:11
Oh, I am. I'm going straight to bed. My
Zain
1:03:13
My name is Zane Belger. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we shall see you next time.