Zain: is The Strategist, episode 1893. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Stephen Carter, Annalise Klingbeil, and Shannon Phillips with the live audience in Calgary. Hello,
Zain: friends.
SPEAKER_04: Hello. Good evening.
Zain: Carter's way over there. Carter, you're sitting very isolated. Some distance between us.
SPEAKER_04: Carter's way over there. Carter, you're sitting
SPEAKER_04: sitting
SPEAKER_04: isolated. Some distance between us.
Zain: Oh, we also have this music playing. I like this. Hacksome. I like the echo of the organ, but I think Christy's going to top it. Goddamn good.
Shannon: like
Corey: like
SPEAKER_04: like the
Corey: the
Zain: good it's just a thing i thought about five minutes ago when you
Carter: when you
Zain: you hire an organist gotta
Zain: gotta use the organ your money's worth i mean really this is important okay so we're here for steven
Carter: organ your money's worth i mean
Zain: steven carter yeah the the nine lives of steven carter actually actually let's just move it on to our first segment uh our first segment as you will see on the slide uh yeah you can you can click on that god
Zain: damn it the nine lives of steven carter presented by flare airlines not
Shannon: a sponsor look at
Zain: at that Christy got it too on the title Carter
Zain: Carter yeah we are here to talk about the municipal election in Calgary we
Zain: are here to talk about your work on that municipal election in Calgary yes
Zain: yes
Carter: yes we are for
Zain: for those that are not familiar let me set the stage anytime any of us gets involved in a political campaign whether it be in this city this province this country we do what we call a accountability episode
Carter: episode and
Zain: and accountability is generally not done in a church like this but
Carter: it's
Zain: it's next level accountability this is this is next level accountability so carter shannon myself and elise we're all going to get into the mix asking you uh frankly a question that i suspect has not been asked in this church in a long time how did you fuck this up it's
Shannon: a united church yeah that's true they probably asked
Zain: yeah that's true they probably asked that of
Zain: of the country they probably said keep it going whatever the fuck
Zain: fuck it is okay
Shannon: guys
Zain: we're
Shannon: we're
Zain: we're
Shannon: we're
Carter: we're
Zain: we're gonna have to really
Zain: pay christy well yeah carter so So we're going to give you an opportunity to set the stage. Rather than peppering you with questions, we'll let you defend
Carter: christy
Carter: yeah carter
Zain: yourself, talk about, explain wherever you want to take this in terms of what happened in the municipal elections with the Calgary party.
Carter: And I get to do this in front of the mayor?
SPEAKER_04: Yes. The current mayor.
Zain: current mayor.
Zain: you're standing. Okay.
Zain: The
Carter: eulogy of
Carter: the Calgary party. You're giving a
Zain: a eulogy.
Carter: eulogy.
Zain: Okay.
Zain: Okay.
Corey: Stephen, Stephen,
Corey: this is your conscience speaking, Stephen. Yes,
Zain: Yes,
Corey: that's right. your conscience sounds exactly like much better than zaram mamdami cory hogan mp for calgary confederation and
Corey: and stephen yeah
Carter: yeah yes
Corey: yes as your conscience i don't want you to lie to these people i don't want you to bury your feelings in this weird post-modern thing you're doing tonight
Carter: as
Corey: where there's like lawn
Corey: signs and stuff at a funeral so
Corey: stephen i
Corey: want you to tell the truth about
Corey: the many, many nights you toiled away on this Rube Goldberg machine-like campaign in 34 different places and
Corey: how that may have perhaps contributed to
Corey: some of the failure you're basking in tonight, Stephen.
Corey: Stephen, over to you, Stephen. Forgive
Carter: me, Father, for I have sinned. Wrong
Carter: church. I
Carter: fucked up. Is
Zain: that it? You fucked up? Yeah,
Carter: Yeah, I fucked up.
Zain: That's an eulogy.
Carter: That's an eulogy. Listen,
SPEAKER_04: Listen,
Zain: listen, if you did not recognize that other voice, that voice of consciousness, that emotional support member of Parliament, man should we bring him up on stage let's bring him up there's
Zain: a bit of demand for him to come back ladies
Zain: and gentlemen wherever he is probably making his way down the steps can he make his way down the steps has he made his way down the steps oh my goodness there he is canada's favorite parliamentary secretary the mp for calgary confederation and our podcast former co-host cory hogan
Carter: goodness there he is canada's favorite parliamentary
Carter: i
Zain: i
Carter: i
Zain: bring the good word oh budget 2025 oh jesus fucking christ grab
Shannon: budget 2025
Carter: a
Zain: a chair hogan grab grab a chair, and join us for the accountability of your budget where are the climate initiatives?
Zain: Imagine if we pulled
Corey: pulled a fast one out of Carter. Could we...
Corey: This feels like a bit of bait and switch here. I thought we were making fun of this guy. Could
Carter: This
Zain: This
Carter: Could we open with a reading from the book of Carney?
Corey: Go to the Women and
Carter: Go to
Shannon: to
Carter: to the
Shannon: the Women and Gender Equality section and read to us about that.
Carter: and Gender
Corey: Gender
Carter: Gender
Carter: us about that.
Shannon: Is
Corey: Is it there?
Carter: Is it
Zain: it there?
Carter: there?
Shannon: there? Yes,
Corey: the fully funding of gender programs, Jeff. Oh, great.
Zain: the fully
Zain: great. I'll wait for the Indigenous
Corey: Indigenous rights
Zain: rights
Corey: rights section. Chapter four,
Zain: rights section. Chapter four,
Corey: defending our sovereignty.
Corey: That's great. The word of Kearney. So
Corey: So saith the prime minister.
Carter: Welcome,
Corey: Corey.
Corey: Thank you for this August honour of
Corey: of now being and also ran on a podcast that I founded. And hey, congratulations on getting a church, apparently. I know, it's a big deal.
Carter: I know, it's a big deal. People
Carter: on a balcony.
Corey: Yeah, I know. It's really cool. It's really cool.
Carter: Not very enthusiastic people on the balcony. They're there.
Corey: the balcony.
Zain: They're
SPEAKER_04: They're there.
Corey: there.
Carter: But
SPEAKER_04: But
Zain: you know what? You know what they did do tonight? night. They saved $45.
Zain: Unlike these losers.
Zain: like 12 minutes in and we haven't asked you a question.
Carter: I'm making sure that it goes longer.
Zain: Carter, we'll actually give you a fair shake. Let's get started because I want Annalise, Corey, Shannon to all get in. What the hell happened, man? We
Carter: lost the question. We
Carter: lost the question. And when you lose the question, you're not able to control the outcome of the election.
Carter: So the question became, who
Carter: who do I want to vote for to to stop Jyoti Gondek? Who do I want to vote for to stop Sonia Sharp? And the person that they chose is the one wearing the chains of office. And they chose Jeremy instead of Brian. And that was, we started to lose control of the question probably pretty
Carter: early in September. But by the time October rolled around, we had well and truly lost the actual question.
Corey: Yeah. Can I, I agree with you and I don't as a good conscience, right? I do think you lost lost control of the question but I actually think the
Corey: question ended up being a little bit different uh
Zain: uh and and it was a challenge for you and maybe
Corey: maybe if the election had gone an extra month maybe the outcomes would have been different in unpredictable ways but for
Corey: for me I think a lot of Calgarians started to see 2025 as a rerun of 2021 I mean you still you had the main characters still right you had Davison you had Jeremy
Corey: Jeremy Farkas you had Jody Gondek they were all running again and they were You
Corey: know, they were the big dogs in that race until Sonia Sharpe started moving up in kind of the polling.
Corey: And they said the ballot question became, did
Corey: did I make the right decision in 2021?
Corey: And as long as that was the ballot question, you were you never had a chance. Now, in the last month, I think as Sonia Sharpe started to increase, I think the
Corey: dynamics started to shift in interesting ways. But I don't think you lost because
Corey: because of
Corey: the question you think you lost. that's
Carter: interesting I
Carter: mean remember
Zain: remember he could be a minister one day go if he
Carter: was a minister I probably wouldn't tell him to go fuck himself but he's not so
Carter: so
Carter: Christy
Zain: Christy appreciate
Zain: that analysis at least you follow municipal probably with Carter as close to Carter as possible you were on TV on election night talking about the state of the race the state of what happened follow
Zain: -ups
SPEAKER_04: -ups
Zain: -ups
SPEAKER_04: -ups
Zain: -ups for Carter any oh
SPEAKER_04: oh i have follow-ups steven carter to cory's point though the way you frame the question is like the mayoral race you weren't just doing one race you were doing 15 14 14
Zain: oh i
SPEAKER_04: 14
Carter: 14 14 in calgary
SPEAKER_04: 14 in calgary another 15 in edmonton when did you start to know i
SPEAKER_04: i guess walk back about like how hard it was to run that many races at the same time because it was a very different experience for you then last time and when you started to know that it wasn't just mayoral it was also these other races well
Carter: well I mean the councillor races were really interesting because they were really propping up the mayor's race we were able to do things that other campaigns couldn't do because we had ground game in for 13 of the 14 awards so we had uh our brochure distribution I think was better I think our door knocking was better I think our ability to do a ground game was better and it actually showed itself in the councillor races not in the mayor's race our councillors got about 25,000 more votes than the mayor than the mayor's race got so I think that we were able to capture people in a different way with the with the the council races now we still were only successful with one so
Carter: so ultimately they weren't as successful as we would have liked but
Carter: but they
Carter: they they
Carter: provided a A ground game that didn't exist for any of the other mayoralty campaigns, in my opinion. Do you think you made the wrong bet on parties? Yeah.
Zain: Yeah. Did
Carter: I make the wrong bet on parties? I'm
Zain: plus one-ing the question, not his answer. No.
Carter: No. No,
Carter: I didn't. Why?
Zain: Yeah.
Corey: Yeah. Why? Why?
Zain: Why?
Carter: Why? Why? Why? Like
Zain: Why?
Shannon: Why?
SPEAKER_04: Why?
Shannon: Why? Why?
SPEAKER_04: Why? Why? Like
Zain: Like
Zain: Like
Zain: Like all evidence
Corey: Like all evidence to the contrary asks you, why? No,
Carter: evidence
Zain: No, I don't think the question... Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for having Corey Hogan here today. Do
Carter: and gentlemen, thank you very much for
Zain: you want to read something else? Any other sections he's missing? I'm sure there are, Shannon.
Zain: Carter, there's a two-part question. Two
Zain: Two
Zain: Two-part question. You think you were wrong on parties. I'm going to add a second part to Annalise's question. Do you think you were wrong on this party in terms of what the name of this party was, the positioning of this party, or lack thereof, in terms of what you were trying to promote? So the party question, sure, but this party, the Calgary party?
SPEAKER_04: You think you
Carter: Well, I mean, I wanted a party that was center-left, not a party that was center-right. In hindsight, I think that if we'd run a centre-right party, we could have done better, but I don't think that that would have been as...
Carter: We wouldn't have captured the same type
Carter: type of attention, but I still think...
Carter: I know that evidence to the contrary, because we did get a lot of negative feedback at the doors, and people did poll
Zain: that evidence
Carter: poll about
Carter: 50-50 on parties, but we really ran into a lot of headwind in the inner city and a lot less headwind in the suburbs. There was a lot more openness to the party ideas in, for example, Ward 1 where Joey Nowak was within a few hundred votes of winning. We did Ward 12 where Sarah Ferguson was within 100 votes of winning. Yes, Sarah Ferguson. We
Carter: had – but
Carter: but then in the inner city, the inner city wards, we did much, much worse because of the party. The places where the quote-unquote progressives separated from us and had their own candidates, we did much worse. But it was mostly because those candidates were really rabble-rousing against the parties. Those three candidates in 7, 8, and 9 especially. So
SPEAKER_04: So if you were to do it again, you would still go all in on a party? I
SPEAKER_04: I
Carter: I think that we had the best literature. I think we had the best policy structure. I think we had the best ability to to do the door-knocking. I think we had the best ability to do air war I think that our there
Zain: is there is let me just say
Zain: There's laughter coming from the audience
SPEAKER_04: I
Zain: I
Zain: like the build of your momentum. I think that's why they're
Corey: I think that's
Corey: they're
SPEAKER_04: Encouraging
Corey: Encouraging laughter keep going. How
SPEAKER_04: did you get one seat if you had all of that?
Carter: Oh, no, we didn't have we Didn't have what would win an election we
Carter: had no,
Carter: but yeah, y'all had a great time I
Corey: but yeah, y'all had a great time I guess right like what is success I'm serious I'm not trying to be too too mean but like
Corey: isn't like you say you had the best of these things but isn't best in the context of a campaign best able to deliver votes yeah
Carter: oh yeah I think ultimately that's what you want to measure I
Carter: think yeah I think you're probably correct and that that is the ultimate measure should
Carter: should we
Zain: we just turn it over to them I feel like listen
Carter: listen
Zain: listen
Carter: the question was
Zain: was
Carter: was would I do it again and the answer is yes I would but you haven't answered
Zain: answered my question which is did your party stand you
Carter: you in your question that
Corey: you in
Zain: in your
Zain: one deserved a longer one. My
Zain: My
Corey: My
Zain: My question is, I
Zain: think you had more than what you said. If I were to buy everything you said, ground game, lit, organizing, I also think you had a very, all due respect to the current mayor, I think you had a really good mayoral candidate, one that should have won and could have won on the question of best mayor in my mind.
SPEAKER_04: Thumbs up from the current mayor.
Zain: I mean, I think that Jeremy... Don't be a sore winner, Farkas.
SPEAKER_04: that Jeremy... Don't be a
Carter: a
Zain: got a fucking chain around your neck.
Zain: I just, I think you guys had a
Zain: party that stood for nothing. Exactly. What was the fucking calgary party my man can we talk
Corey: my man can we talk about that name can
Corey: can we talk about the name there's serious questions sorry i think shannon was gonna go okay but
Carter: but let's
Shannon: let's
Shannon: let's talk about the name and then i have a follow-up on this assertion that a center-right party would have done better yeah
Corey: yeah i actually totally disagree and so maybe it's a lead-in too like the
Shannon: yeah i
Carter: i
Shannon: i
Carter: i
Shannon: i
Corey: the calgary party this
Corey: this is such a low information landscape in a municipal election right you're trying to figure out who somebody i remember i've told this story before i'll tell it again i remember one election it It was the one that Nahed won. So, like, 2010?
Corey: 2010. Yeah, the first
Carter: Yeah, the first one.
Corey: I went to my parents' house that night, and I said, well, who'd you vote for? And they said they voted for Nahed. And then I said, well, who'd you vote for for council? And they're like, I don't know. One of them had stickers that the firefighters supported them on, and I voted for that one. Right? And so when I think about that, I
Carter: I went
Corey: I think about
Corey: what
Corey: what does the Calgary Party communicate to people?
Carter: Well, the Buffalo Party was already taken.
Zain: No, no, but can you bring us inside the story, Carter? It
Carter: the story,
Carter: story,
Carter: It was for one person.
Zain: How and why the Calgary party? If you wanted to go centre-left, why not even an indication that that's what you're doing? Progressive, like
Corey: Progressive, like an indicator to a low-information voter who is bombarded with candidates that this is the progressive candidate. You know, that's
Carter: You know, that's an excellent question, and I think the answer is we wanted to have our cake and eat it too, right?
Carter: right? We wanted to be in a position where we could appeal,
Carter: appeal, you know, be centre-left but pick up voters. Municipal elections are weird.
Carter: People vote, you know, all over their place on the ideological frame. so we didn't want to say we're the progressive party because
Carter: you know for a progressive Calgary first
Carter: first of all I think that there were we did run into some problems with the word progressive there was just some legal
Carter: issues but what
Carter: what
Carter: what never
Carter: run into a legal issue yourselves I guess no
Carter: but there was some challenges with some of the names we wound up choosing the most watered-down version because we were right off the bat right
Carter: right off the bat we tried to assemble the largest possible team to make decisions collectively as much as possible that
Carter: that was a massive mistake
SPEAKER_04: what
Carter: what why why did you do that though like you know because we're trying to get buy-in especially from the fucking progressives you
Carter: know when you're when you're trying to win over a group of voters you can't have them split right
Carter: and so this group was splitting almost from like it was a group that is bound to fracture because progressives all like to test each other's blood and make sure they know whether or not i need i
Zain: or not i need i need to get shannon in here in a second so keep going but this i think this hits on shannon center right and i'm sure you're probably going to want to jump in on the progressive element they break
Carter: progressive element they break apart like brittle glass and
Carter: and so we tried to bring them together and tried to include them in our decision making and
Carter: and so from the very beginning we had a group of 50 60 70 people sometimes that would gather in brian's boardroom and
Carter: and then half
Carter: of them at the very least you
Carter: know would be would object to something and
Carter: then they would object to something else, and
Carter: and then there would be something else, and then they wind up fucking you anyways.
Carter: Shannon, perhaps you're familiar. Shannon, get in, get
Shannon: get in.
Carter: in. Welcome
Shannon: Welcome
Shannon: to the NDP.
Zain: It's
Shannon: a mistake to invite too many New Democrats. One of the first jobs I ever had, my friend Marilyn Hooper, who went on to work in City
Shannon: City Hall in Edmonton, used to say, you know, you can please some of the people all the time, all the people some of the time, but you can never please a New Democrat. So that That is true, that is an iron law of politics, but it doesn't, it's also true of the cranks in the other parties. It's true of politics. So what I don't get is there was a clear lane here,
Shannon: here, a centre-left lane, because, Jeremy, just pretend you're not here. You
Shannon: had a very crowded right flank, Davidson, Sharp, Farkas, nobody knows what he is. um we'll
Shannon: get to that and
Shannon: you had an incumbent who had essentially disqualified herself from re-election so you had a clear center left lane so
Zain: an incumbent
Carter: incumbent
Shannon: so i i i have a question about how it is that um like you what you said once on the podcast that as soon as you're talking about viability that uh that's all you're talking about but it would seem to me that the first question to take gone was viability in the center left lane well
Carter: well the the left versus right question that was developing was entirely around housing and
Carter: housing was a nightmare for us housing was a problem for money and housing was a problem for people hold
Zain: hold on one sec you think people voted on issues in this election no not at all okay
Carter: not
Zain: okay keep going i just want to make sure i'm clear with that this but
Carter: i'm clear with that
Carter: but the vote wasn't about issues our lane was on that issue we
Carter: we had we were the only ones beside a mayor who had
Carter: disqualified herself due
Carter: due to her previous four years we were the only ones who
Carter: had the ability to take housing and make housing our show but
Carter: we were so pressured from so many different people because it turns out that housing people the people who like housing and the people who like parties are in a venn diagram two
Carter: different circles right
Carter: so
Carter: so we were pressured in a massive fashion because we couldn't ultimately
Carter: ultimately we had to back away from housing we had to back away from our left-wing credentials
Carter: if you will because
Carter: because there was so much pressure from the center and so much pressure uh
Carter: uh from others do
Corey: do you think that was complicated by being in a party where it cut differently on the ward level like you you talk about janet a really crowded race and you're totally right on
Corey: on the mayoral side but you know on some of the riding level or ward level fights it was a bit different which maybe made it a bit harder to carve out like a victory path that was 35 percent say instead of 50
Corey: yeah
Carter: yeah I mean that was one of the challenges because you would have certain words where you couldn't even mention house you
Carter: know if you mentioned housing you were dead in the water and those
Carter: words are now represented by chocolate nights so I
Carter: think that's the right word oh yeah I
Corey: I don't
Corey: don't
Zain: don't know what that word means but Christy can you just add one for just in case I
Corey: that word
Corey: just in case
Carter: case
Corey: case I
Carter: I
Corey: I
Carter: I
Corey: I
Corey: don't
Zain: don't know what I don't just add add one just in case it means something but i just i don't want to be sinning
Carter: troglodytes
Carter: troglodytes what would you play as a chord for troglodytes no
Zain: just
Corey: just
Carter: anything come on christy yeah
Zain: yeah
Zain: yeah that sounds right that sounds i would have said yes to anything but
Zain: carter carter carter carter i know shannon wants to get in and annalise wants to get okay so
Zain: so can you help me summarize a bit
Zain: what do you think you guys what would you okay let's start this what
Zain: what would you do again right
Zain: What would you do again? Party, I have, as you would do again. This party? This sort of mealy mouth stand for nothing, my definition.
Carter: definition. Like,
Zain: Like, your candidates I thought were great, but your party stood for nothing. This is my analysis. Would you do this party again? Let's just get to the facts. I would do this party
Carter: party with a different name. Okay.
Carter: Okay.
Carter: Okay.
Carter: I would hold
Carter: on
Carter: to housing tighter.
Carter: Really, really jump on housing.
Carter: We're the only ones who are going to go for it.
Zain: You're talking about future election, or if you would redo this one? Redo this election. Okay, that's what you would have done. We
Carter: We only needed, like, what did, Jeremy, you won with 4%, 6% of the vote, something like that. The
Carter: vote total was so bad. In hindsight, we were shooting for 100,000 votes. 100,000 votes you can get on housing.
Carter: Let's go housing all the way.
SPEAKER_04: all the way.
SPEAKER_04: How would you have got, like, in a low information voting era, we can talk about media, we can talk about social media. like how would you have gone all in on housing well
Carter: well now you're bringing up the impossible the the impossible challenge that we're running into in politics right now so
Carter: so you're
Carter: right I don't have the answer for the impossible challenge so the impossible challenge is
Carter: is there is no more traditional media social
Carter: media is a best-assessed pool but there is no communication structure around it anymore not
Carter: not the way we used to be like Jyoti
Carter: Jyoti in her first run we would put out four or five, you know, tweets in a tweet stream, right? And everybody would read them and think that she was taking on Jason Kenney. There was none of that. You couldn't put things up on Twitter X now and have it seen by people. You would, everything had to be paid. Everything had to be produced.
Carter: produced. And it was just really, really hard to get anybody's attention. And so to that point, I think that that's where housing would have actually worked. Because
Carter: Because I think that housing was the one issue that everybody was talking about and it would have done us just fine to have 900,000 people walking around the city of Calgary saying I'm not voting for those bricks because they're pro housing and the hundred thousand people that are pro housing go oh those
Carter: those are my people that's who I need to go to I
Zain: I get head nods from Shannon jump in so if
Shannon: if
Shannon: if you had more money then how would you have bought your way out of that to make housing the the
Shannon: the you know know vote determining issue for the for the progressives because clearly we have to buy it uh in order to get the eyeballs but you know there's a a problem of of uh fundraising there but if you had the money what would you have bought to do it well apparently
Carter: well apparently i didn't spend the money very well because uh what was the thing you said about votes you
Shannon: apparently
Corey: need them to win we
Carter: we need more votes to win yeah
Zain: need
Corey: need more
Zain: more votes to win yeah
Carter: ladies and gentlemen you're a member of
Corey: ladies and gentlemen you're a member of parliament right here oh my goodness Something I learned, by the way. Not
Zain: right
Carter: right here oh my goodness
Zain: goodness Something
Carter: by much.
Zain: maybe not with that budget.
Zain: Jeremy and I
Corey: Jeremy and I are sitting here being like, yeah, so what?
Corey: Who
Zain: Who cares?
Corey: cares?
Corey: Yeah, that's right.
Zain: What was the question? How would you structure
Carter: structure a party? How are you buying ads? I would just buy housing ads.
Zain: party? How are you buying ads? I would just buy housing ads.
Carter: I mean, we bought ads on all kinds of different issues. Didn't any of your ads resonate?
Zain: Didn't any of your ads resonate?
Carter: Apparently not. No.
Carter: I mean, we weren't getting, the
Carter: only metrics we could get from our advertising was how many people we showed it to. there was no other metrics that were really starting to come you know like there was no organic
Carter: views there was no organic sharing there was no organic comments all of that was gone it just didn't exist and I don't know if it existed in other people's pages I mean we would go and do spot checks on Jeremy's page we'd
Carter: go and do spot checks on Jyoti Jyoti's
Carter: Jyoti's page was quite an adventure to go to a spot check on don't read that page that was nasty but
Carter: but
Carter: but you You know, we'd take a look at everybody's stuff, and no one was getting organic stuff. No one was getting anything that had any real jump, because we were like, if someone's got jump, we'll copy what they're doing.
Carter: I wasn't above it, you know?
Carter: But no one was really getting the big jumps.
Zain: Okay, so let me get in the bucket of what you would do again. Party, but not this one. What else would you do again? Let's say you're running it back. We give you hindsight tonight in your favor. What would you do and leave the same I do and then because I want to make this constructed This is as much as it gives some of us in this room satisfaction to shit on Carter I
SPEAKER_04: do and then because
Zain: want to actually figure out thank
Zain: you. I
Zain: I said that Chris. That's good Wasn't
Zain: Wasn't wasn't part of the example set but Christie's like learning
Zain: on the job Carter
Zain: what else would you leave in the I would still do this bucket? I'd
Carter: I'd keep the candidates
Carter: Okay, I was super pleased with our candidates. There are candidates in a great big round of applause applause for our candidates.
SPEAKER_04: Do you
SPEAKER_04: think it was easier to recruit those candidates with a party? Oh, absolutely.
Carter: absolutely. I mean, keep in mind that in
Carter: terms of progressive people who are running in this election and just, you know, define your own level of progressive.
Carter: If you were running as an independent, you were a white man.
Carter: If you were a progressive and
Carter: you ran in this election, if you weren't running with the Calgary party, you were a white man unless your name was Courtney Penner.
Carter: Everybody else was, you
Carter: you know, I
Carter: mean, they're cookie cutters except for the mustache,
Shannon: mustache, right?
Shannon: right? So another
Carter: another
Shannon: another
Carter: small bit joke there. It was good, though. Yeah, Harrison. Harrison. Yeah. Yeah.
Shannon: Harrison.
SPEAKER_04: Harrison. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty good. Who
Shannon: Yeah.
Carter: Yeah.
Shannon: Yeah. It's pretty good.
Carter: good. Who
Shannon: Who
Shannon: Who
SPEAKER_04: beat your candidate? The party enabled us
Shannon: beat
Carter: The party enabled us to recruit visible minorities. The party enabled us to recruit women. The party enabled us to recruit people with different means. we were able to put people into competitive
Carter: competitive races we
Carter: weren't able to win but
Carter: but we put them into competitive races because we had a party structure if
Carter: if you look around at the other people who were in those competitive races they didn't have the party structure they there was a lot of people I mean obviously a lot of people fail when they run in these elections but the people who failed the hardest was anybody who's kind of reached out of out of
Carter: the generic white male stereotype what
Zain: would you change what's that it looks okay so you've got your pluses I'm not going to dress some of those kids you're entitled to what you kind of think on the on that stream of things in terms of what happened and what should leave the same what
Zain: what would you change because
Zain: if you're keeping your candidates and you're keeping your party and you're tweaking the name what
Zain: would you change is it financial allocation is it leadership is Is it people? Is it structure? Is it timeline? Is it when you started attacking Danielle Smith? I'm giving you some ideas. Can you
SPEAKER_04: Can you talk about that momentum to Zane's point? We talked in the summer on an episode and you're like, 10 seats. We're going to do 10 seats. What am I going to say?
Carter: What am I going to say?
SPEAKER_04: We don't know. We're trying our best. Did you really think? Did you just not hit the momentum at the right time? Did you need three more months? We're doing
Zain: We don't know. We're trying our best. Did
Carter: We're doing really well right after Stampede. Our
Carter: Our money was flowing really well right after Stampede when we've done that first poster thing everybody was talking about us we were doing very well right after Stampede. Then we hit when most of
SPEAKER_04: of Calgary was away.
Carter: When most of Calgary was away.
Carter: Then
Corey: Then
Carter: Then
Corey: Then
SPEAKER_04: we hit August where it
Carter: we hit August where it got even worse. No one was around in August. I would definitely change when we started to go after Danielle Smith. I
Carter: think that if we'd gone after Danielle Smith where you know starting just before Labor Day we could have really established ourselves as the anti Danielle Smith party even in fact we could have gone after Danielle Smith more in July it
Carter: it was
Carter: kind of the silver bullet that we were saving and we saved it too long we
Carter: we only did three months three weeks of really anti Danielle Smith rhetoric and I really wish that we'd done that much earlier before the race it started to coalesce around uh what did you characterize it as the uh 2021 yeah it was a
Shannon: we only
Corey: yeah it was a re uh a mulligan on 21 yeah yeah
Carter: yeah yeah
Carter: yeah so when it started to coalesce around that that's when we really started to go after danielle and i think that if we'd gone after danielle you
Carter: know three
Carter: weeks four weeks earlier than that we could have started to switch the the temperature gauge what
SPEAKER_04: what about tying sharp to danielle smith and i think it's what we haven't really talked about that but sharp was 500 votes away from being mayor like 700
Carter: no one's counting um
SPEAKER_04: um yeah
Carter: i
SPEAKER_04: i mean sharp like
Carter: like
SPEAKER_04: like
SPEAKER_04: sharp sharp was part of a party yeah
Carter: sharp was um was really scared sharp
Carter: was the only one we really attacked uh
Carter: and and really sharp was attacked clarify what you mean
Zain: what you mean by scary do you mean as an opponent or if she became mayor she would have been scary as an outcome or both if if
Carter: if she became mayor she
Carter: she was she was positively the worst possible person to become the mayor of a city but
SPEAKER_04: but not
Carter: for cory though cory thinks that she's okay i
Carter: am
Carter: am
Corey: am stone-faced on all things uh not in my political lane but look
Corey: you know steven i i gotta tell you this we haven't even gotten to edmonton jesus um we're not doing edmonton yet gotta
Carter: gotta
SPEAKER_04: gotta go to edmonton christy
Corey: edmonton christy um but your your Your kind of introspection right now seems to be along the lines of the operation was a success. It's too bad the patient died, you know? You know what,
Carter: of
Carter: know? You know what, though? I've
Carter: only won the one election, so
Carter: so probably
Carter: not familiar with how it feels when you start to get the momentum. But
Carter: once you start to get the momentum, so the
Carter: wave that passed us and hit Jeremy and hit Sonia and hit Jyoti to a degree, because Jyoti did pick up a lot of the wave that I think was there for us to pick up. the wave that we missed could
Carter: have been our way yes
Carter: wait
Corey: wait
Zain: wait wait got me you
Carter: you
SPEAKER_04: you
Carter: you
SPEAKER_04: you you
Carter: you could
SPEAKER_04: could have won say
Carter: have
Zain: have won say that again the wave he
Carter: say
Zain: could have won i'm sorry the
Carter: could have won i'm
Carter: the wave
Carter: we missed yeah had we gone after daniel smith perhaps three weeks earlier that
Zain: yeah had we
Carter: wave could have picked us up and taken us somewhere do you really think so it's not that
Zain: do you really think so it's not that the calgary party didn't stand for anything got it okay yeah we
Carter: stood for all kinds of things we had 11 policy books i mean you
Zain: you you had a party that rhymed with the Alberta Party, in a sense, that has not been a vehicle that didn't go anywhere for a decade. Like, I don't mean to be like, hey, it was a failure on day one, but-
Carter: Yeah, but there were so many- I remember working with you and Corey on a
Zain: remember working with
Carter: campaign for the Alberta Party. It was really close to actually going to- What?
Corey: Yes. Yeah, that's not part of the website bio, but yeah.
Zain: We did. We worked on great talks by election campaigns. Great talks by election. This is a great time to mention that this is when mall security at Sunridge Mall thought,
Corey: campaigns. Great talks by election. This
Zain: thought,
Zain: okay, this is a real story. Can I share a real story? You can, and I know it. This
Corey: can, and I know it.
Corey: This is
Zain: is such a pretty
Corey: pretty good story. To be fair to them. To
Zain: To be fair to them, I was a brown man buying 50 burner phones. Okay, just
Corey: Okay, just the
Corey: 50 burner phones part, I think, is maybe suspicious behavior.
Zain: my credit limit was not high enough, I was paying on debit, PC
Zain: financial debit. Very
Zain: popular card in the Northeast. east anyways optimum
Zain: points it all ties back galen weston approved science anyways uh i'm
Zain: buying 50 burner phones from the best buy mobile and mall security pretty much keeps me there for three hours because they think i'm doing the most biggest drug deal ever that
Zain: was the great clark campaign by election that was yeah unrelated to anything we're talking about but maybe
Corey: that was yeah
Shannon: maybe so like the alberta party uh standing for nothing um but also no i want to put i want to put a thesis to to you, Carter, and that is this, that the waves that were missed, that you could have caught and would have been yours, I
SPEAKER_04: also no i want
Carter: want to put i want to put
Carter: and would have
Shannon: think. Yeah, you got it, you got it. Waves just create
Zain: you got it. Waves just create themselves. Okay.
Carter: create themselves.
Shannon: themselves.
Shannon: Okay.
Carter: Okay.
Shannon: They're
Carter: They're
Zain: They're not generated. Campaigns don't matter, and then you just ride them. That's
Carter: They're not generated.
Carter: That's how budgets balance themselves,
Shannon: it's totally different. I'm reading your Murakami novel. Okay. But, okay, so in my view, this is my thesis, they were, and this is as a Calgary politics adjacent sort of normie. I don't really care about Calgary politics. You missed
Carter: Murakami
Carter: Okay.
Shannon: missed
Shannon: missed the villain and
Shannon: you missed the viability.
Shannon: That's my thesis. That there was no villain, whether
Zain: That there was no
Shannon: whether it's that guy sitting right there or Daniel Smith or like there was a defining who the opponent is, who are we trying to beat and why, but two, we are the person to beat them.
Shannon: Because you had to establish that to get the incumbent out of the way.
Shannon: That's the thesis. I
Carter: I totally agree with that. And
Carter: And I think that we missed on both the villain, which is why we should have moved Danielle Smith up earlier. We didn't go after... I don't think we mentioned Jeremy once. Why? Why? Who
Carter: could remember how to spell his name?
Shannon: Voters. The voters remembered how to spell his name. Jeremy, are you... yeah, that's
Zain: Jeremy, are you... yeah, that's true.
Shannon: true.
Zain: Jeremy
Shannon: Jeremy
Shannon: Jeremy
Zain: Jeremy the mayor of Calgary. It's nice.
Shannon: the mayor of Calgary. It's
Carter: nice.
Carter: Yeah,
Zain: Yeah, it's nice. I actually agree with Shannon's but if you're on a wave here that's just been created out of nowhere, please ride it. No,
Carter: I think that viability
Carter: was our problem from the very beginning, and
Carter: and we struggled with viability,
Carter: and I
Carter: I think that we did a pretty good job of viability right after, again, when everybody was on vacation, as Annalise pointed out. After
SPEAKER_04: After Stampede? After Stampede.
Carter: Stampede? After Stampede. And then we couldn't
Carter: get it back fast enough in late August and early September, And by the time we'd kind of lurched to the attack Danielle phase, we'd
Carter: missed the wave. The
Carter: The wave had passed us. I do think that there was a wave for us to catch. I do think that there was a mechanism by which we could have won.
Carter: We just missed it. And that is foundationally different. I want to bring something up here. Keep
Zain: Keep going. It's
Carter: It's foundationally different than just getting your ass handed to you. You remember the ABC election in Vancouver?
Zain: as long as you want to bring that up
Zain: yeah got
Carter: got my ass handed to me there
Zain: there was
Carter: was no wave to catch there was no wave that we could manufacture there was no wave that we could get and I think there's been a couple of times I've said Ginny Sims in Surrey I've said there was just not an opportunity for
Carter: for us to win we
Carter: we didn't have the opportunity the wave there
Carter: there was no wave there was no construction of a wave there was no premise of a wave but I'm telling you with the Calgary party with the opportunity that we had there was a wave that was there that could have been taken advantage of that we didn't get I why did
SPEAKER_04: I why did you not get it we didn't
Carter: we didn't go fast enough on on Danielle we weren't seen as viable when it when when the question came around as
Zain: as much as I make fun of you it's out of love because I will say this there
Zain: was a moment for me and I'm curious if there was a moment for for the rest of you here and probably some some in the room knowing
Zain: carter there was a carter's got to move carter's
Zain: like like you know three weeks like because adding your name to something you know despite everything you are in some cases because of who you are adds a
Shannon: in
Carter: in some
Zain: a credibility marker but also adds a skill factor where we were like there's got to be a carter move here four weeks oh there's got to be a
Corey: oh there's got to be a carter move here three weeks i would i talked to reporters i talked to columnists i talked to opinion leaders Not just here in Calgary, but across Canada and they'd be like, yeah, but Carter's Carter's doing right
Zain: i talked to reporters i talked to
Zain: Carter's doing right there's gonna do a thing
Corey: do a thing
Corey: thing Right. You
Zain: You were calling me Did you make a play and we didn't notice or you
Corey: You were
SPEAKER_04: were calling me Did you
Corey: know, I'm gonna make that my ringtone
Zain: Carter,
Zain: did you have no moves? Are
Zain: you describing my high school love life? No
Carter: No
Zain: No
Zain: I'm curious you add a massive credibility factor like you're very good at what you do which is why I think expectations were high when you were like we're going to win 10 seats I'm like fucking Carter's going to win 10 seats
Carter: here's the way it was supposed to work the
Carter: the way it was supposed to work was the ground game that we were doing through April, May, June, July that
Carter: that ground game was going to be a basis
Carter: basis of support and
Carter: that basis of support and viability was then going to be elevated
Carter: elevated by the air war that came with the mayor's race and I just don't think that air war came with the mayor's race i mean the evidence shows that we didn't capture that wave that usually comes along i
Carter: i would argue with all due respect to the mayor it
Carter: didn't come for anybody really someone
Carter: and i'm not he's not agreeing with you
Zain: he's not agreeing with you just so you know someone
Carter: so you know someone
Carter: and i'm not pointing any figures lost like 21 000 votes from his last time
Carter: this was not an election that anybody was winning so much as everybody else was losing and we just happened to be the biggest losers
Carter: yeah
Zain: yeah
Corey: i want to hear about Edmonton now. We're not
Zain: We're
Carter: We're not doing Edmonton tonight.
Corey: Edmonton tonight.
Zain: I know you're turning to me. Although I will say, I want to, I
Carter: I
Carter: Although I will say, I want to, I would like to welcome Reid Clark, one of my former candidates.
Carter: Reid Clark, thank you very much, councillor. Successful candidate. I would like, yeah, successful councillor in Edmonton who has subsequently left the party. Thanks
Shannon: Successful candidate. I would like, yeah, successful councillor
Carter: Reid, good to see you. I
Shannon: I would like to welcome a candidate who won, Aaron Paquette, councillor for Wardina. not a
Shannon: a
Carter: carter candidate he would you'd like to welcome i
Corey: introduced myself pretty nicely i thought so another
Shannon: candidate who won okay
Corey: okay let's
Zain: let's
Corey: let's
Zain: let's let's also
Zain: by the way for you guys uh it's pretty casual with this what we're gonna do is well at some point we'll break this part of the conversation uh and then we'll have a part b we'll do a quick 10 minute intermission we'll come back there'll be a q a special guest we'll chat some more shit we'll get you guys guys involved uh so we'll put carter out of his misery at some point uh however to this point not this
Carter: this point
Zain: point not
Carter: point not this not right now
Zain: not this not right now i i want to understand from like you've got five
Zain: political practitioners on the stage here many more interested in politics people elected to office people who are political practitioners themselves let's talk about the state of play in a broader sense and get into the what the hell did you learn so if this was less accountability more more forward-looking what the hell did you learn this time my man i learned that so social we
Carter: we
Carter: need social networks to activate case
Carter: in point cory hogan cory hogan had the social networks activate the the number of people that came from our discord that
Carter: that the the number of people who came from the subscribers from the people who were here how many people actually worked on the cory hogan campaign where
Carter: the fuck were
Shannon: fuck
Corey: were
Corey: were
Corey: were you for your service where
Carter: where
Carter: were how many of that same group of people worked on jeremy's fucking campaign that's
Carter: not what i heard they're all in the
Corey: they're all in the balcony the
Carter: discord was all over jeremy barry you know like the
Carter: the truth is that the social networks are the only way to activate a vote right now and those social networks are super
Carter: super hard to reach they're easier to reach at a federal politic level they're easier to reach at a provincial politic level they were impossible to reach municipally. We still saw the same spike 24 hours before the election of the number of people who went and searched Jeremy Farkas' name or searched the Calgary party or any of these other things. Would
Zain: Would you, can I ask you this? I'll ask you this one, I'll let Corey get in. Would you today take 500 super fans of your next political project or half a million dollars in the bank?
Carter: 500 super fans. No kidding. Yeah, anytime.
Zain: Yeah, anytime. You would too. I'm hoping to get in with your comment
Carter: anytime. You would too. I'm hoping to get in with your comment
Corey: comment
Corey: comment as well. Yeah, look, first of all, the world can be changed by 50 superfans, right? Like, it's just, it's so important. The people who show up and make decisions, and they can change everything. And they can bring five non-superfans with them, and they can bring five different new superfans the week after that.
Corey: But as you talk, Stephen, I realized what the original sin of your campaign was. and it
Corey: was that you ran it like it was a provincial election or a federal election you created a political party that was designed to appeal to a lot of people instead of a narrow interest that's required to win municipally you uh treated it as though the candidates were candidates for mla within a bigger party frame and that's just simply not how it works the candidates who won for
Corey: for you well i think about dj specifically he almost won the time before right and there was the Sean Chu thing and it was going back and forth on and it
Corey: it was never going to be a provincial election ever
Corey: ever there was never going to be a situation where the policy would speak to everybody I'm not even saying parties can't work municipally I'm saying it's
Corey: going to look different municipally and you tried to make it look like it would look provincially but
Shannon: but Corey if that's the case then why did the right-wing uh people win but
Corey: but they really didn't like when you look at like the The community's first
Corey: slate, a
SPEAKER_04: slate,
Corey: a few won, but... They
SPEAKER_04: They were incumbents. They were incumbents. It was
Corey: They were incumbents. It was a situation where, if
Corey: if anything, I started to think, because I was looking at them, you can look it up yourself, but one of the community's first people, their vote dropped a lot. And I thought because, oh, they just put the label on themselves that they are now a member of this right-wing group. And I just don't see any evidence that political parties municipally are going to perform, at least in the short term, like
Corey: like they do provincially. Scattered
Zain: applause, it's my favorite. What
Carter: What
Zain: do you think of that thesis? I'm asking you for what you learned, but I'm curious, Corey's thrown something on the table, I'm curious to get your reaction to it, that you tried to model this after something you'd already seen in different orders of government or different political avenues.
Zain: The
Carter: thesis behind the party is different, I think, than people want it to be. The thesis behind the party is that people make such shallow choices when they're making their vote. you know um the the sticker the sticker from the firefighters on a sign um
Carter: um we wanted to give them a political shorthand they knew that they were choosing the right candidate without
Carter: having to do the work of
Carter: of choosing the right candidate and
Carter: i
Carter: i still think that's right i
Carter: still think that people make
Carter: make fuck
Carter: fuck off you called it the calgary party i'm telling you right now like what's the shorthand the liberal the liberal party was going to be that much easier listen i couldn't even name it after the liberal party someone already had that you know what
Corey: party i'm telling you right now like what's the shorthand the liberal
Corey: party was going to be that much easier listen
Corey: had that you know what people think their whole life about whether they're a liberal or a new democrat or a conservative the calgary party like you're it's too much mental work you know and this was true actually i believe of communities first too it doesn't mean a ton and in fact if you picked up some of sonia's earliest literature you could think she was the far left candidate you know it was just very generic and it was bad wayfinding And it was only when she started providing good wayfinding that she started to rise in the polls
Carter: What
Zain: else did you learn?
Zain: What else did you learn this
Zain: whole fucking show a bit about what I learned? Well, here's the thing you you learned that you would triple down on social networks more so than anything else Adverts it was advertised. Did you learn something? I think we thought I think there's anything about leadership. Did you learn anything about? Structure like these are the things that I want to kind of go through in terms
Carter: I think we thought I think there's anything about
Zain: terms of what you feel like were lessons learned that you will pour to the next project that you take on? Social
Carter: networks are the only thing that matter, and I wouldn't spend nearly as much money on digital. We'd
Carter: pull back way back on digital. Canada Post going on strike in the middle of a campaign is never good,
Carter: especially when you lose about 100,000 brochures and you have to send
Carter: a truck to go get the other 400. Like, you can't deliver 500,000 brochures without Canada Post. so losing Canada Post well that was a huge chunk of our communication strategy that just went away when when we lost that we tried to replace it but man
Carter: those brochures never got delivered so when
Carter: when you lose a half million brochures when you you know I would I would I still think that going direct to home is the best way to to communicate through the mail you know we're through the mail or door knocking I still don't think that texting is working as well as we think it is and I don't think that call the calling is working at all so
Carter: so you
Carter: you know if we're going back the first calling wasn't working at all oh
Zain: calling wasn't
Zain: oh no talk to me about calling let's take a deep dive for a second on calling we we've heard in in recent sort of political science and practitioner evidence that like chatty phone calls or what's the the hottest thing again tell me why calling wasn't working and was it the type of calling you were doing Zane you haven't answered your phone in six years.
Zain: I'm pretty confident where I stand on most things, including not picking up a call from my MP until
Zain: he's a minister. Which,
Shannon: Which,
Zain: by the way, you could just get behind there and you'll be a type of minister.
Carter: by the way,
Carter: behind there and you'll be a type of minister. Lots
Corey: minister. Lots of ministers, right?
Zain: Lots of ministers,
Corey: Yeah,
Carter: Yeah, you could,
Carter: but keep going. Two out of five, one out of three doors will open when you knock on them. Yes.
Zain: Yes.
Zain: Yes.
Carter: You're going to get a conversion rate that's going to be one out of every four doors, one out of every six doors, something along those lines where you're converting a voter over to your numbers on telephone calls you can literally have the auto dialer and just turn it on and and the odds of getting someone who's actually a voter are unbelievably slim and what you are getting you're getting a group of voters for they're either angry and they want to talk about it or
Carter: they're lonely and they'd like to talk about it right
Carter: or they're stupid and you don't want to talk about it right
Carter: but don't not your voters your voters were very respecting the
Zain: respecting the voter was not a lesson that Stephen Carter learned but
Carter: there's the truth of the matter is you're not reaching a voter that that is available to you on the telephones and and the texting is interesting because you know I know that we
Shannon: reaching
Zain: reaching a
Shannon: a voter
Carter: we you know in Edmonton we bought a lot of texting and texting we were getting a lot of really positive feedback I'm not sure that feedbacks real I'm
Carter: not I think that it's kind of like digital you put digital up you get a lot of digital numbers but the digital numbers aren't necessarily real what are we measuring right
Carter: right like we're putting real
Carter: real bodies into a theater or a church that's
Carter: that's real i
Carter: don't know that at any point during the campaign we could have put you
Carter: you know we put 400 people in a couple of times did you do rallies we
Zain: did you do rallies we
Carter: we
Carter: we tried to do events not rallies okay rallies are super hard events
Carter: events we could do because we could like offer people something you
Carter: know you give them like a crustless
Shannon: like a crustless sandwich yeah
Carter: yeah pickles
Carter: pickles that was really good people
Corey: people who paid too much money got that joke for sure yeah
Carter: people who paid
Zain: paid
Carter: paid too
Zain: too much money
Shannon: money
Carter: money
Zain: yeah the rich bourgeois just laughing it up with their same voucher for leader lonside but
Corey: but you know it's an interesting point because i certainly even in my own campaign started thinking part way through that the real benefit of
Corey: of some of these mass communications channels that are easily tuned out and we're just drowned in them is you're telling your own supporters what the message is right like you are phone blasting it out to take it out yeah it's less to actually persuade the people directly and it's more to persuade the people indirectly it's to tell the people who are actually willing to pick up the phone when they see the caller id say cory hogan campaign
Zain: blasting it out to take it out yeah it's less to
Corey: okay this is the message we're using now when we're talking about jeremy nixon or when we're talking about pierre polliev and
Corey: and that's a shift right that's very different from how we used to treat these we used to treat them as direct channels and maybe now they're indirect channels in some ways yeah
Shannon: i could buy
Carter: buy that
Shannon: that
Carter: that first
Shannon: first
Carter: first
Shannon: thing you said that i agree
Carter: thing you
Corey: you said that
Carter: that i agree with tonight i
Shannon: think it only works when you have it on top of like in your case in my case on top of a paid that is going through uh you know and you're buying every inch of eyeball that you can uh with youtube with you know podcast ads with every available square inch yeah it works then uh otherwise it's too diffused because oh i i totally
SPEAKER_04: that is going through
Carter: yeah
Corey: yeah it
Corey: oh i i totally agree like i so i don't know if
Shannon: so i don't know if it would work municipally is what i'm saying well
Corey: well it's a great point because i think you need to have that message given by land sea and air many many times before people get that that's the message here's
Zain: here's here's an interesting sort of meta question as we sit in a room of people who are showing up to our podcast right which is that we have you know through our efforts but also a reciprocal effort of people in this room created some form of small c community but you couldn't create that for your campaign so like i'm almost kind of trying to ask like what is a hack that modern media or culture or community building gives you that you want to pour into politics including this show like this is why i think it's an interesting meta question where it's like you're like i couldn't find fans yet you have 350 plus people here listening to your podcast about your party like there's an irony there's like an interesting fucked up irony this is by far the most anyone has ever
Corey: this is by far the most anyone has ever talked about the calgary party in front of people yeah
Zain: yeah so
Zain: talk to me about that and then i'll just that I'll get like and not not
SPEAKER_04: and not not only do you have a church full of people you have people that paid $75 who
SPEAKER_04: who don't pay $6 a month but they paid $75 I love
Zain: love
Zain: you all what
Zain: what what like what what have you learned about building community back to your first point about networks that have only matter and I'll let anyone get on this but what have you learned about community building if if those other ways are becoming indirect or less effective I
Carter: think we tried to choose
Carter: our friends a little bit too much and
Carter: we would have been way better off if we'd started with a smaller group of people that was
Carter: a little bit more evangelical about it rather than saying let's go find some evangelists and get them to and get them to join our campaign that was our big mistake early on we
Shannon: early on
Carter: we shouldn't have been quite so eager to find big names the big name could have been should have been Brian Thiessen and that was that would have been just fine but
Carter: but we went and tried to find a lot of people who would help us project our message out and then they wound up going other places and they projected messages against us that were incredibly damning and and frankly now I know they were very interested in winning a few seats instead of winning the majority of seats and now we've only got a few seats I'm
Zain: gonna move it to our over under in our lightning round here Here we go, Carter. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to let everyone except myself kind of get in a question. So, Shannon, any questions lingering on the mind on your mind for Stephen to ask him at least the same. And then, Corey, I'll end with you to
Carter: here Here we go, Carter.
Zain: to ask Stephen in terms of what he's learned in terms of the accountability, in terms of the go forward as a practitioner. Were
SPEAKER_04: you spread too thin?
Carter: I was running Edmonton, Calgary, had some stuff in medicine hat. it
Carter: was a little touch and go so
Zain: so yes to that point though can i ask a follow-up to your question at least yes why did you always tell us you were running 28 campaigns and not two like
Zain: like even the way you thought about the campaign steven carter why was it steven carter sure but like i want to understand if there was a strategic reason why you're like nope nope there's 28 campaigns right not two political parties because
Carter: campaigns right
Corey: right not two
Carter: two
Carter: because i think that each one of those candidates deserved my full attention
Shannon: by
Shannon: saying
Carter: saying two i would be i'd be i wouldn't i gave as much i gave as much attention to every single candidate as as humanly possible and i believe and i believe that i continue to believe i believe and i continue to believe that that was the methodology by which we could have caught the wave yeah it's by actually building a good solid base foundation so
Zain: and i believe and i believe that i continue to
Zain: believe
Corey: yeah it's by actually
Corey: so steven your actions and your words live on separate continents, though. Like,
Corey: you can't have 28 campaigns and say you're giving them all your full attention. I
Corey: mean,
Corey: that's just math, my dude.
Corey: You know, we
Carter: we could have left him. We could have done this when he was in Ottawa.
Corey: we could
Zain: could have left him. We could have done this
Corey: this when
Carter: You know, I told you we could have done it when he was in Ottawa. No,
Carter: No, you have to do it when he's on a break week.
Zain: He gets a lot of break time, is what I've learned. What
Zain: does he do all day? Let's turn it to Corey.
Zain: Back to that budget, Hogan. Okay, so, But Annalise's question, were you spread too thin? It's
SPEAKER_04: It's a yes or no question. It's
Carter: yes or no question?
Carter: Yes.
Zain: Shannon? How
Carter: How
Shannon: in the fuck could
Shannon: could you run a
SPEAKER_04: you run
Shannon: right-wing campaign in Edmonton and a left-wing campaign in Calgary? You
Zain: and a
Zain: know what? I'll make the audible to add ten minutes to the clock. Let's do it.
Shannon: clock.
Carter: clock. Let's do it.
Carter: First of all, I reject the notion that either one was particularly left
Carter: or right. Where have you been? Did you meet
Shannon: or right. Where have you been? Did you meet Tim Cartmell? Did you talk to him ever?
Carter: I did. I spent a lot of time with Tim, and I think that Tim Carmel's biggest failing, if I may, and just foreshadowing for the Edmonton show, was
Carter: was that he had many different disagreements with the Premier that he wouldn't voice. Then
Carter: he's a right-winger.
Carter: Or a coward.
Shannon: coward.
Carter: is a different show.
Zain: How do you balance
Carter: How
Shannon: How do you balance that is my question, because they are fundamentally different approaches, different electorates, and a different way of running a campaign. Yeah, I'd
Carter: Yeah, I'd
Carter: I'd
Carter: say I'm really good, but we lost both. Was
Zain: Was
Zain: it the same strategy in Edmonton, Carter? Like, would you be doing a copy and paste of sorts? Not really. No? We
Carter: it the same strategy
Carter: Not really. No?
Carter: We
Carter: We had a much bigger name in Tim. So
Carter: Tim was always, we always led, it was almost the inverse of the race in Calgary. We led with Tim much more than we led with the candidates. And I think that that created some friction with the candidates, but it was also a much more powerful vehicle. we didn't have the ground game in Edmonton that we had in Calgary it just we had a much stronger air war but we weren't saying the right things but
SPEAKER_04: but you had a lot more money in Edmonton over
Carter: over twice as much Hogan
Zain: you get the final question and then Christy right after this I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap
Corey: gonna
Corey: WRAP yeah I get the audience thanks you for that clarification what
Zain: WRAP
Corey: a sincere sincere question what
Carter: what
Corey: what
Carter: what
Corey: what the rest
Carter: rest
Corey: rest weren't
Carter: weren't
Corey: weren't no the rest were just making you feel bad that's what i do that's what friends do um what
Corey: did you learn about yourself in this campaign like your limits your heart limits as a campaign strategist your blind spots your weaknesses or your strengths frankly uh that came out of it all like what are you gonna do to
Corey: guard against you or promote the best you going forward?
Carter: I think that the biggest lesson was you can't make your own weather.
Carter: You can make your own waves? No, but that's why we didn't get the waves, right? Like, I
SPEAKER_04: You can make your own waves?
Carter: couldn't make my own weather, I couldn't make my own waves, and I couldn't solve, you know, everybody was saying, where's the, where's the Carter trick? Where's the Carter thing? There was no Carter trick. There was no Carter thing. The creation of the weather just
Carter: just didn't happen in this campaign, and And we, in the same way that it happened with Nenshi or Gondek or with Redford. So there's, it
Carter: it was a good reminder
Carter: that the weather happens to us, not necessarily because of us. Can
Corey: I make an observation?
Corey: Well, look, when you talk about Nenshi or Redford or Gondek, what they have in common is they are individuals, not 28 campaigns, right? Right. Like, do you think maybe like your ambition might sometimes be a bit of a challenge? Like if you had bitten off less, you might have gotten to eat more. No,
Zain: we're
Zain: going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 1893 of The Strategist. Christy, this is where you can play the extra music. There
Zain: we go. We're going to we're going to edit
Zain: Strategist extra the same as the intro. The theme.
Zain: Yeah. Here
Zain: we go. We're going to we're going to trust me. You guys are going to cheer so loudly. It's going to be amazing.
Zain: That's a wrap on episode 1893 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Belchie. With me, as always, Shannon Phillips, Annalise Klingbeil, Stephen Carter, and Corey Hogan.