Zain: This is the Strategist episode 1892. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Stephen Carter and Shannon Phillips. How are you, friends?
Carter: Oh, I'm having the best day. It's been fantastic.
Zain: Yeah. I'm cleaning up my basement. And that's nothing to do with the live show, which, by the way, we're not talking about.
Carter: I'm
Carter: I'm cleaning up my basement.
Carter: No. You know what? I don't feel like promoting the live show anymore. Everybody knows that it's happening. Sorry. To
Zain: You
Zain: happening. Sorry. To be clear, that's why we don't want to talk about it. It's just we've gotten some feedback. People
Carter: some feedback.
Zain: People have been like, even Shannon was going too hard on the live show promo. Yeah. people have said so we're gonna stop we're gonna stop promoting the live show okay
Carter: been like, even
Shannon: promo. Yeah. people have said so we're
Carter: okay
Shannon: okay
Carter: okay
Shannon: okay with
Carter: with you shannon
Shannon: shannon yeah
Shannon: it's fine i find that rude but okay yeah just
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Zain: yeah no no i mean welcome to our listeners they are a rude bunch especially those that don't pay i
Zain: i
Carter: i feel
Zain: feel like i feel like there is there's a group of people that don't pay to listen to us that are very rude and then there's a group of people that pay that are extremely nice and then there's a group of people that pay and are very rude and we like them the most carter to be clear yeah and those are the people attending the vip event which by the way i'm not going to talk about 6 30 p.m there'll be a whole thing it's catered apparently the economics make no sense carter's explained it to us off air they make no sense no but it's catered
Carter: feel
SPEAKER_05: to be clear
SPEAKER_05: yeah and those are the
SPEAKER_06: the people
SPEAKER_05: p.m
Carter: no but it's catered you
Zain: you you could you use the word loss leader in a way that i don't think you know that you can fully understand the definition of you
Zain: you know
Zain: know
Carter: know what saying you're You're verging on promo. Oh,
Zain: Oh,
Zain: Oh, yeah, true. I vote promo. Speaking of things, speaking of someone, let's spend the entire, my plan is to spend the entire episode on someone that could use a little promo, that could use a little bit of TLC. That person, Shannon, is one Pierre Polyev.
SPEAKER_05: Speaking
Carter: Speaking of
SPEAKER_05: of
SPEAKER_05: That person,
Shannon: person,
Zain: He has not had a good week, has he, Shannon?
Shannon: He has not. He has had a terrible week, in fact. No good, very bad time.
Zain: Carter, listen, there's process and then there's outcome. Let's talk about outcome first, and then we can talk about the shitty process week that he's had as well. The outcome is that he's lost one MP. He had another resign, who I suspect they've convinced to stay, lest I have heard, unless you guys have heard otherwise. This is Matt Gennaro, to
Shannon: shitty process
SPEAKER_04: process
Carter: to
Zain: to
Zain: to stay until April. April. So Genroo's sticking around until April, not leaving. So as we relate it to the majority minority math for Mr. Mark Carney, that number does not play the role we thought it did when we recorded our breaking news episode on Matt Genroo. And then they've also had a really shitty process week with articles coming out around their culture, their bullying culture. And let's not forget Andrew Scheer also coming out and saying the reason that one Mr. Matt Genroo left Left is liberal scare tactics that the liberals finally got to them. The people who are incompetent in politics became very good at it and picked off Matt Gennaro off the of the conservative caucus. Carter, not a good week. No,
Carter: it's a no good, horrible, terrible week for Pierre Polyev. And it's on top of kind of a not so great time since the election. I mean, as we know, he lost his seat. He had to seek a new seat in the
Carter: liberal stronghold of Battle River Crowfoot. Battle
Zain: Battle River Crowfoot. Liberals go battling there and they lose. They get 5% to 6% generally. Yeah, I mean, it
Carter: Crowfoot. Liberals go battling
Carter: 5% to 6% generally.
Carter: generally. Yeah, I mean, it was pathetic that that's where he was, where he found himself. But that's been his year. It's not like this is a guy who's been riding a high who all of a sudden had a bad week. this is a guy who was 20 points ahead prior to the election who lost the election and who is continuing to have bad time
Zain: yeah and i want to spend a bit of time with the two of you helping pierre pauliev out but i guess before we help him out like we could we could help him out for this week like that would that's an episode we could do right how to help pierre pauliev with the madgenre de rue and chris d'entremont situation that is a thing we could do but i want to almost leave it up to the two of you in terms of how and what help you think this guy needs. I'm always kind of asking you to put your consulting hats on, your strategist hats on, to say, what is the core problem with Pierre Polyev before we jump into what the solution to Pierre Polyev needs to be? So let's spend like at least a couple of minutes. And Shannon, maybe I'll start with you to give me like a problem definition. What it is, does this week, is this just an inflamed version of the core problem? Is this a symptom of a larger problem than what we saw this week? How would you like to define the problem that we helped solve for one Pierre Polyev? And Carter. I'll give you a shake at it right after Shannon. So
SPEAKER_05: how to help pierre
Shannon: in the summer of 2024, I guess I was looking at some federal polling. And, you know, Pierre Poliova was riding high. Justin Trudeau was generationally unpopular. And here we had, we were looking at Pierre Poliova's strengths and so And I saw even in that polling that
Shannon: women were identifying him as arrogant and
Shannon: and doesn't, you know, represent people like me. And it was more, there was some softness in the numbers when
Shannon: you looked at leadership attributes. and
Shannon: that is exactly what ended up being the problem through 2025 the
Zain: the
Shannon: guy's a self-satisfied asshole and
Shannon: women can sniff that out from a mile away and
Shannon: they
Carter: they do so
Shannon: do
Zain: so
Carter: so
Shannon: so they do yeah and someone in the
Carter: someone in
Zain: in the same league and category yeah
Shannon: yeah with your you know like you got your your tea prescription just a little too uh high i need to dial it down there pally she
Zain: she means t as in testosterone okay okay thank you you know he
Shannon: means t as
Shannon: you know he just gives off this this energy that he's too good to be told anything uh that he's never going to change um and uh he's he's just the worst of the comments section come alive uh
Carter: he
Shannon: uh and and and that is the vibe now men apparently can uh or have a higher tolerance for that sort of horse shit than women do um but i when a an even bigger asshole came on the scene of donald trump it became very clear how brittle and how how uh well how brittle mr polly ever was and he could not uh change so that's still his core problem when you looked at i watched chris antrim on today i gave an interview to rosemary barton live where
Carter: men apparently
SPEAKER_05: apparently
Carter: apparently
Carter: higher
SPEAKER_05: higher tolerance for that
SPEAKER_05: sort of horse shit
Shannon: it was talking about how nobody had changed since the election that
Zain: that the
Shannon: that the election had had surfaced all of these problems that
Shannon: that say uh that people had identified for you know about a year a year and a half but well maybe you owned it closer to two years now um had surfaced all of that and yet nothing changed nothing changed so
Shannon: so the the core of the problem for mr polyever is is he is an asshole and he needs to stop being an asshole to his own people in the first instance. Leave aside the public for a moment and talk about his own caucus and be nicer. This
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Zain: Carter, Shannon's given me a list, But at the top of the list, Shannon, is this fair to paraphrase is women like the women, the woman problem, the women problem for Pierre Pauliev is up front and center in terms of his electoral problem. Is that a fair description in part of what you're saying? It's women
Shannon: in part of what you're saying? It's women and boomers, really, when you look at the data. But I mean, really, it's people who have an expectation of politics that people don't behave themselves like absolute jerks.
Zain: at the data.
Shannon: And that's his electoral problem.
Zain: But it is also
Shannon: But it is also his caucus management problem. Well, Carter
Shannon: Carter
Zain: Carter Shannon's put a lot here, and I want to let you have a shake at this as well. And I find it interesting, and I will comment that the angle of women is
Shannon: Carter Shannon's
Zain: is an angle that you have long held as a political strategy angle or a prism that folks who are running campaigns, seeking office, seeking reelection should be very mindful of, if not exclusively mindful of. I know you've talked about that on this podcast over the last many years. Are you, A, still a believer in that philosophy, and B, would that top your list of issues that Pierre Palliev faces in your mind?
Carter: Well, I totally agree with Shan, right? Pierre Palliev is an asshole, and the people who pick it up the most are women. I
SPEAKER_04: I think
Carter: I think that women have a finely tuned sense of assholery for men, and they have a— I mean, to
Carter: be just absolutely frank, it is essential for women to be able to pick out the assholes very quickly and very easily. And they do pick out the assholes easily and very quickly. You mean like from a pure evolutionary
Zain: You mean like from a pure evolutionary perspective, to be clear? Like seriously, though. Like seriously. Absolutely. Absolutely. And
Carter: to be clear? Like seriously, though.
Carter: seriously. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you hang out with the better guys because we're better, you know, and I'm throwing you an eye in that, Zane. We're the better guys. As
Zain: As you just admitted to everyone mere moments ago that you're a self-described, self-satisfied asshole.
Carter: As you just
Zain: It's true. It's true, but still better than
Carter: It's true. It's true, but still better than
Carter: than Pierre Polyev. Sure. So what's fascinating about what Shannon has offered is she's pointed out that this is not a new problem. This is a 16, 18, 24 months. And my history with Pierre Polyev goes back to 2000. Decades
Zain: Decades long problem. I know Pierre
Carter: I know Pierre Polyev as an asshole from 2000. It's 25 years. This is not a new thing that he's developed. But I think that if we are going to solve the Pierre Polyev problem, we have to solve the Pierre Polyev problem from 25 years ago into six to eight weeks from now when he's got his January review. view and then another period of time when he is uh he's he's the leader um that has to win over uh the electorate my view is let's do this in two phases let's look at it as a six-month problem or a two-month problem and then a two-year problem because i think that or potentially three and
SPEAKER_04: a two
Shannon: two
Zain: potentially three and a half year problem depending uh depending on when he gets whenever
Carter: whenever the election is i'm going to call it two years just because it's it's easy it's right in the middle
Carter: um But
Carter: But it's how do I survive the immediate and how do I survive long term? Those
Carter: Those are the two big questions for Pierre Polyev that I think that if I was being hired to analyze and create a solution for him, I'd say, OK, here's how we're going to solve this short term.
Carter: We're fucked because we're losing people and you're an asshole and nobody likes you. and you call on Jenny Byrne the way that a baby calls for its mommy, that's not the way it's supposed to happen. So let's go. Let's have some fun.
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Zain: Shannon, do you like this frame, two-month, two-year? Is that like a reasonable frame for you in terms of timeline and what we're trying to solve, which is get him through the leadership review and then, Carter, your two-year slash three-and-a-half-year whatever, is unclear, but I guess because we don't necessarily know where he'll be, it's about making himself, to Shannon's point, palatable to that same electorate he'll need to face any time between two to three and a half years from now. Make sense to you, Shannon?
Shannon: Yes, and here's why. He has kind of a two problem between now and the leadership review, which is obviously keeping the party on side and keeping the caucus from bucking any more than they already have.
Shannon: I actually think that he's in better shape, and i've always maintained this that like the the leadership he's okay on probably because the party membership is behind him uh
Shannon: uh you know they they they like this vibe you know the kind of new conservative coalition but
SPEAKER_04: conservative coalition
Carter: coalition but
Shannon: the the dangers on i think where there's dragons for mr polyamory is actually after january and that's where he needs to keep his caucus together and uh
Carter: polyamory is
Shannon: uh even more right Right. And and that's where, you know, we might get Reform Act stuff or other things popping up. But there's kind of two different problems to solve. Right. That's in the near term. It's the it's the get through the budget. Don't lose any more personnel between and and make sure that that that party piece is is in good shape. And then after January, it's kind of managing through the, and that's when there might be more caucus that actually, especially if his numbers stay low, when he's got more danger ahead. So
Zain: I agree with the frame to Carter, but inherently, and I think Shannon's hit it perfectly here. Inherently, in the two month strategy is a two week strategy,
Zain: which is, if if Carney gets to a majority, then the two year strategy almost becomes irrelevant, because he almost doesn't survive in the area as there's it just becomes not irrelevant. element. Sorry. It becomes fundamentally different, I guess, to be charitable. It becomes fundamentally different with the two-year strategy. And so talk to me, before we talk about two months, let's start with the next two weeks. And that could include cleanup from what last week looks like, heading into this week as a record on Sunday, November 9th, heading into Monday, the 10th, and Remembrance Day on Tuesday, just so people are anchored with the timelines we're talking about. Carter, as you talk about two months, start giving me some ideas around two two weeks? Well,
Carter: the very, very first thing is to take actually a page out of Brian Mulroney's book of success with your caucus. That is pick up the telephone. Pick
Carter: up the telephone. You call every single member of your caucus and you have a 10, 15 minute conversation with them. It's going to take up the bulk of your next two weeks. Any free time that you thought you had, you're now making telephone calls. Any time that you were supposed to be in a meeting or supposed to be in a house, supposed to be doing something else, you're actually making telephone calls. You are are making so many telephone calls your fingers are going to bleed but
Carter: but that's what you need to do is take a piece and page out of brian moment brian marooning before we had the databases that we have now he had a database of every single person their wife's name their children's ages how old they were what you know what what they like the sports that they played and he could and he would pick up the telephone on their anniversary and call them and wish them a happy anniversary or on the wife's birthday or on whatever. That was the rigor with which Brian Mulroney approached his caucus relationships. And because he was doing it every day, it
SPEAKER_04: and he could
Carter: was never overwhelming.
Carter: Pierre Polyev has to make it overwhelming. It has to be overwhelming today. He needs to sit down. He
Carter: He needs to go from east to west and make a full day of telephone calls every day for the next two weeks, just to to make sure that everybody feels the love, not the love from Jenny Byrne, but from the love from the leader himself.
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Zain: Jen, let me get you in a second. Carter, what's the message? Does
Zain: he lay out the stakes that we majority territory is a death knell for all of us sort of thing? And how does is he without necessarily knowing where a lot of these folks stand um
Zain: and he probably has good insight in terms of who the three to five other potential floor crossers are so my question is what's the overall message and my sub question is what's the message to the three to five swing votes the people that could leave let's assume they have the intel that the media does and i certainly don't let's just assume that he has some intel the media does on who the other uh folks could be i
Carter: would start off with two two relatively simple messages number one we can win together We
Carter: were so close to winning together. We can win together. You and I working together can win the next election. And number two, what can I do better? How
Carter: can I better serve you?
Carter: You know, the servant leadership model of how can I serve you as a leader? and then you know scratch notes out make sure that people hear you writing notes on cards so they think that you're actually engaged so you're not just kind of going through the motions but you're actually saying you
Carter: you know i think that the two messages are
Carter: we can win together together
Carter: together we can win a part we cannot together
Carter: we can win but i'm willing to do my part what can i do better to be a better leader both for you and for the country
Carter: those
Zain: those conversations
Carter: conversations are
Shannon: conversations are only going to to be genuine though uh
Shannon: if he
Shannon: he uh front loads it with there
Shannon: there is not going to be retribution if you tell me the truth and
SPEAKER_05: uh
Shannon: uh you need to be able to say uh what i did what what i have done in the last few months that you thought were mistakes and
Shannon: and he needs to be very upfront and and that's why he needs to sweeten it before he even has some of those conversations with some of the crankier ones by giving them something and
Shannon: and
Shannon: and to keep them in right uh whether it's you know i'll come to your writing i'll not come to your writing as the case may be um or when
Zain: as the
Zain: when you look at leader poll numbers like the party outpolls the leader so like as funny as tongue-in-cheek as that shit is it's it's kind of not depending on and what circumstances were their folks or i'll
Shannon: numbers like the
Shannon: tongue-in-cheek as
Shannon: of not depending
Shannon: i'll give you an opportunity to do more More stuff regionally, you know, like it's possible that if he had elevated Chris D'Entremont, for example, and let him do a little bit more of the Atlantic Canadian comms, that, you know, Chris D'Entremont wouldn't have had the kinds of complaints that he had about Andrew Scheer's presence, you know, when he was acting leader in the House about the, you know, some of the RCMP stuff. Like, it's possible that some of these folks that are cranky in the caucus are actual, like, well, moderates, whatever that means in the Conservative Party of Canada anymore. But it is people who would like a different communication style and different focus rather than, you know, talking about jailing their opponents. And so I think he needs to sweeten it. You know, Carter's right that this was the playbook for Mulroney. It's why none of his caucus bucks when Mulroney essentially left them a party that won two seats in
Zain: in the 93
Shannon: the 93 election, right? Right. But going into that, everybody knew they were headed for the iceberg and nobody jumped ship.
Shannon: And the big reason that is sort of lore in Canadian politics is because he commanded the people's loyalty because he talked to them.
Shannon: And so but I think Pallieva needs to do a bit more than just talk to them. He needs to sweeten it first because people are afraid of him
Carter: And so
Shannon: in the caucus. And if they say, oh, well, here's what you could do better, they'll probably get, you know, metaphorically kicked in the teeth with a demotion or like getting mean girls frozen out or or because we know that that stuff's happening in there.
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Zain: Carter, Shen brings up a really good point. I think when you've talked about historically, which is we've we've seen in political history that that, you know, politics isn't always a selfish transactional act, that there are leaders that pull low that are not destined for victory, but their teammates stick with them. right their teammates are like i'm loyal to you man like we'll ride or die together i get it right like uh you know i'm not i'm not leaving you high and dry uh we've seen that historically despite the rap that politics gets of being extremely transactional of people biting themselves stabbing you know um each other in the back and kind of you know jumping ship yes that is the more commonly told story but that loyalty piece is really interesting i would challenge though though, that Pierre Polyev, Carter, has really promoted himself. We're asking him to flex muscles that he's A, not used, but B, we do not know if he has. We know he can make the calls because he's done that historically. That's been well reported that people have talked about that. However, as it relates to being more than a transactional leader that can get through point one of your message, which is we can win together, I have a hard time kind of seeing Pierre Polyev add sweetness, both in terms of rhetoric, but also in terms of roles and and responsibilities for anyone that already isn't in his very, very tight orbit. What do you what do you kind of I don't mean to be skeptical what Shannon's saying, but I'm trying to right size the advice to the guy that we have here. No,
Carter: but the guy you have here is losing.
Carter: Right. And I think that this is one of the one of the things that I was trying to get across to people is, you know, if you're
Carter: if if you
Carter: you want to continue to behave the way that you've been behaving, you can lose the way that you've been losing.
Carter: That's fine. And that's what's going to happen with Pierre Polyev. If he doesn't foundationally change things, he is going to be in trouble. And it starts, Shannon made a really good point early on. It's circles of influence, right? We always kind of, I think of circles of influence as just kind of like a target. The bullseye is your close set of advisors. Pierre Polyev does not have a problem with his close set of advisors. They are loyal to him. They have always been loyal to him. It is the next target out, this caucus that we've got a problem in, The next one after that is, you know, caucus staff, the board, all of those kinds of, you know, people who are insiders. And then you get to general population or I'm sorry, members of the party. Members of the party think he walks on water. He may survive his leadership review on nothing more than he's Pierre Polyev and he's a fighter. And I love fighters. But
Carter: you
Carter: you don't get to hold on to the reins of power by only having that particular sphere of influence. And
Zain: And I agree. So you've got to change.
Carter: So you've got to change.
Carter: change.
Zain: I also think that the two-week problem might be harder for him than the two-month problem, not to telegraph what we're talking about in the two months. But the membership probably like him more than perhaps the caucus does right now in some cases with the prospects of Pierre Polyev. But that all being said, Carter, I want to test another thing Shannon's put out there. If you're Per Poliev, what are you willing to give to
Zain: these folks that you're talking to? Are you adding any sweeteners? And what are you willing to give away in the sense that what are you currently doing, staffers, strategies, people around you, those sort of things that you're willing to kind of say, I will dispose of this sort of thing? How do you deal with those things? Because these are also 100 plus people who feel like they should be the leader and are not coming at this completely naive to the world of politics themselves. How does he deal with those sort of inbound requests and sort of the negotiation of what change looks like in the moment within the confines of these calls?
SPEAKER_07: Well,
Carter: for the most part, I think most of the change is going to be listen to me, right?
Carter: I'm hearing what's on the ground in my neighborhood. I'm hearing what's on the ground in my riding. I need you to listen to me. I'm also a very talented political operative. I need you to listen to me. You listen too much to your political circle. It's going to be one of the biggest pieces of feedback. That is the same feedback that every leader gets. You listen too much to your political circle and not enough to me. If I could be in your political circle. In the Pacific,
Zain: in your political circle. In the Pacific, fire Jenny Byrne. You
Carter: know what? He was supposed to fire Jenny Byrne after the last election. He didn't do it. You know where he'd be right now if he'd done it? In a much better spot. Because Jenny Byrne knows how only to hit nails with hammers. She hit nails with hammers, and she's got Andrew Scheer, who knows how to hit nails with hammers, and she's got, well, I can't remember the name of the whip, who knows how to hit nails. Melissa Lansman,
Shannon: to hit nails. Melissa Lansman, Chris Warkenton, they're all... All these people who know how
Carter: Chris Warkenton,
Carter: Warkenton, they're all... All these people who know how to hit nails with hammers. But that's not what this situation demands. This situation doesn't demand a nail being hit by a hammer. So they need to rethink and change the way that things are unfolding in the caucus. So they need to say, if Jenny Byrne needs to be the one who goes, if that's the sweetener that they need to do, then bye-bye, Jenny. You're making your money anyway. that's
Zain: your money anyway. that's why i'm trying to get you're able shannon are you offering it i'm waiting to see if it needs to be done it's a trading ship accessible to you in the in the in this in across these calls over the next two weeks that's what i'm trying to understand is is the firing of jenny burn something that you would be willing to uh propose to pierre pauliev let's say you're writing him this memo to say in the next two weeks this needs to be on the table my dude oh
SPEAKER_05: it
Carter: it i'm waiting to
SPEAKER_05: to
Carter: to see if it needs to be done it's
SPEAKER_05: it's
Carter: over the next two weeks
Shannon: i think it has to be almost public repudiation right because like she was she was not hired like it needs to be leaked out somehow that jenny has been absolutely put out on the ice floe right i i just she's she's gone um and and she and and if there needs to be one or two others like leak it out by a politico or whoever right it doesn't you don't need to you know make podium art about it or uh they're
Carter: she was not hired
Zain: they're not not podiums they're lecterns but
Shannon: but uh uh but you do need to make it clear that there's been a a break from the old ways you'd
Zain: be open to that what else what else do we need to do in the next two weeks carter the phone calls the message we got oh and i and i do want to revisit before i jump there carter what's the message to the folks that you know that are the the ones that are looking to cross you have the intel is
Zain: is do you deviate from your two-point channel i want to come same to you in a second no
Carter: i think that i think that the primary message the emphasis in in that case becomes the Conservatives are going to win the next election, right?
Carter: We have won the popular vote. We have, we've been up by 20 points. Canada is ready for a change. And we will be that change. But we can only be that change together.
Zain: Yes. Shannon, what are you thinking about as it relates to message for those that are the potential floor crossers? Well,
Shannon: you know, yeah, there's going to be a change of government, you're going to find yourself in opposition again, Again, on a team that you can't trust. They don't have your best interests in mind. They're using you. And so you're better off over here with the team that you've been fighting with for the last 10 years in opposition.
Zain: Carter, anything else to add to the two-week category of tactics or strategies before we move on to now in January in Calgary for his leadership review?
Zain: No, I think that's it. Shannon, anything on your end? I
Shannon: would switch up, as I think I said last week, I would switch up some critic portfolios, some house assignments, just keep people busy. And the other big thing is, if there's anything right
SPEAKER_04: some house
Shannon: right now that they've got in their files, you know, since we're Jenny Burke, come in, Andy, you know, on liberals, if they've got any oppo, anything like that, anything that's going to make the team feel good. you
Shannon: know if they drop a bomb or two on the liberals that would be a good time for that um because nothing focuses the mind in a caucus like who the real fucking enemy is uh
Shannon: uh and uh that can be very helpful to you know sort of galvanize the troops and uh you know bring them over the uh over the ridge altogether and you do really feel like if you can score a point or two on the government uh it feels very very good uh or i mean failing that uh you know a nice big fundraiser um or you know a couple of of uh uh you know fundraising touches in some of the the more malcontented people's ridings uh or directing some party resources to make that happen even if they don't want the leader but but just kind of you know uh shoring up uh uh you know always within a caucus there's people who are cranky about you know or who got the leader's time who didn't you know some of these kinds of things just just papering some of that over would be be hopeful or do that right now.
Zain: And Shannon, can I start with you on the two-month strategy, the now to January? Start with a few building blocks in your mind in terms of things we need to think about, things he needs to think about. What would you be kind of leading that part of the document with?
Shannon: Well, you know, to Carter's point, I saw the abacus today that showed that 70% of CPC voters thought the sun shone out on Pierre Polyev's ass.
Shannon: So, you know, they're fine. I think your party membership is fine. I would still be a little concerned if you know who were these three to five to however many people who were wobbly were, I would be concerned about, you know, I would be looking under the hood a little bit about how many members they have, how many delegates they're sending, some of that kind of stuff. staff uh and i would be just making sure that i had that floor uh
Shannon: uh and obviously i would you know be putting organizing resources to making sure that the floor is uh that it's not going to shake underneath you right there's no earthquakes there i think that's probably the easy part uh a the other part would be um you
Shannon: you know making sure that you don't have any more walkers uh
Shannon: uh because you might after the budget hmm
Zain: that's
Zain: that's a good point the budget isn't the i mean it is the one in front of us but it's not the only reason and only timeline someone could walk on
SPEAKER_07: wednesday
Zain: wednesday
SPEAKER_07: wednesday wednesday of
SPEAKER_07: the strategist podcast one night only wednesday november 12th at the iconic knox united church the mics go hot at 7 30 p.m tickets start at just 30 bucks grab yours now carter
Zain: carter can you build on this uh shannon's talking about membership she's talking about the three to to five wobbly folks in terms of what you need to do with them, make sure the floor crossings don't happen, understand who's trying to organize elsewhere. What else are you adding to this bucket of two-month strategy for Pierre Polyev?
Carter: Well, I think that I'd be making sure that the direct mail and the emails that are going out are going out even more so in my voice now.
Carter: I want people to feel like I'm communicating with them. I would say to the fundraisers, let's use my voice more. Let's make sure that my voice is going out. I'd say to the people writing all the emails and the messaging, this is a leadership opportunity. Let's keep me front and center. And I would start doubling down on videos. The membership loves the videos. I don't remember the last video I saw of Pierre Pavliev really rocking it, right? Let's get the old Pierre up and get him out in front of a video camera again. get him doing the things that that we loved them doing before right the members eat that shit up um so you know there's lots of things wrong with the carney government not the least of which is that the the central premise has been that he can deal with trump and he's failing so
Carter: get
Carter: get up and start start uh start throwing some haymakers if they like the fighter then become the fighter
Shannon: One of the things that he did really well, obviously, up to and even during the campaign, which we know is his famous rallies. I would not say a rally is a good idea, but I would say that maybe that format in order to generate that content might be a good idea in a smaller, more tall, small type thing, maybe. but have it a bit um have your
Shannon: your ability to showcase maybe a softer polyamory in between the haymakers he still has to do those for the for the base there's no question but there's got to be ways to give him a bit of of of personal narrative or other uh delivery some other content uh that he be a little bit more empathetic right
Shannon: like on costs on affordability on uh unemployment on those kinds of things be like soften those edges a little bit there you know it doesn't have to uh just be you know hang trudeau up by his toenails at the rally like it was for for two years um was it ever jesus christ
Zain: was it ever jesus christ yeah it
Shannon: it really was uh but you know there there are ways to script him with a little bit more human content and you can put him in rooms of people because they're really good at bringing the people out of the woodwork and and so i would think about doing that in a sort of maybe smaller more town hall-y kind of thing or something like that where i mean obviously these things are are well controlled but it feeds the base on one hand but it allows you to maybe start test-driving new messages on the other.
Zain: Carter, I'm going to walk you through a series of considerations on the two-month side of things, and I want both of you to kind of comment on them in terms of severity of risk and whether you'd plan for them or not, or execute on them. Let me throw this one out. The opposing force of an opposing leader, or leadership contender, starts organizing, heading into January. Now,
Zain: Now, all we've heard from the Conservatives is that that's not happening. I
Zain: can list to you a bunch of factors that might expedite something like that.
Zain: Risk level for Polyev, concern level for you if you're helping him out. Let's put a name to it, right? The Corey Tanik organization of replacing Pierre Polyev, not saying that I know that that exists. In fact, the opposite. I do not know that that exists. But I'm giving a name, so a credible name, who's organizing a leadership contender. Maybe that person is known, not even known in terms of what it is. But it's get Pierre out because we want in within you because we do believe that the party should and will win the next election. We just don't believe Pierre is the guy to do it. Heading into January, how big of a concern is that for you, Carter, from your strat planning?
Carter: Massive. I mean, we've been watching leader after leader after leader get taken out in their leadership reviews. First of all, you see, you know, the whisper campaign has enough power in it that you don't have to have the no committee or the yes committee or the whatever committee. You can have just a few people, you know, whispering that, you
Carter: you know, they're not going to support the leader in the ballot box. And all of a sudden, all hell breaks loose.
Carter: Bonnie Crombie was just the most recent one where she's completely blindsided by the lack of support in the room because everybody was saying to her, don't worry, you've got my support. I
Carter: think Pierre Pelliev could find himself in a very similar situation where
Carter: where people tell him that they, you know, don't worry, you've got my support. And then, you
Carter: you know, push comes to shove and he's shoved out the door, especially
Carter: especially when you only need a few percentage. Like, you
Carter: you know, 50, 65 percent. Is that enough to stay anymore? Like, I don't even know what the number is. Shannon probably knows better the number because Shannon's smarter than I am.
Carter: But, you know, this is what is the number to stay if you're if you're if you're Pierre Poliev? And how do you make sure that that's not? I've asked this
Zain: you make sure that that's not? I've asked this question before. Let me ask it again. Who is best advantage of getting that number and socializing that number out right now?
Zain: Is it Pierre Poliev and his side or is it any opposing forces? Any opposing any
Carter: Any opposing any opposing force has a much better chance in a guerrilla warfare.
Carter: right
Carter: right if it's a guerrilla style defining what then
Zain: style defining what then what the what the bar polyev should reach 90 absolutely 85 whatever it is i
Carter: absolutely 85
Carter: 85 whatever it is i
Carter: i think that they have i think they have a really strong chance of knocking off like let's say that he's going to get 85 you know
Zain: think that
Carter: with no organizational structure right 85 i think it's just yeah
Carter: yeah it'd
SPEAKER_08: it'd
SPEAKER_08: it'd be
Carter: it'd be great everybody would everybody would kill for 85 in today's leadership world um
Carter: um 85 would be golden um
Carter: if
Carter: we started 85 and you add an organizer You had someone who's organizing against you. It drops down to 70, 66, 67 really fucking fast. And
Carter: And I think that that's I don't think it even needs to be someone who's organizing, organizing so much as a whisper campaign that starts around the around the convention, around the the leadership
Carter: leadership review. view and all hell breaks loose like this is my like
Carter: like i don't think you need to have an organizing campaign is the answer to your question zane i don't even think it needs to be that organized high
Zain: don't even think
Zain: high risk and even higher risk considering doesn't need to be formalized shannon do you agree with carter in terms of a opposing force to your leadership not just the naysayers who may cross which is a different consideration i'll talk about in a second but
Zain: but how concerned would you be if If you're helping Pierre Polyev out around, like, we have a new leader in mind organizing for us. I
Shannon: would be quite concerned for exactly the reason that I flagged earlier with the phone calls, which is that everybody's going to lie to them because they're scared of a group of people who keep, clearly keep oppo files on their own people and are ready to deploy them if they go offside. Right. This is essentially what
Carter: and are ready
Shannon: what we heard happened with January. And so if they've got an oppo file on him, they've got an oppo file on all kinds of people internally. And, you know, obviously, when you vet your own people, you have some stuff on, but it sounds to me like they
Shannon: they
Shannon: they were keeping pretty good tabs and more than vetting their
Shannon: their own candidates and their own caucus members. So,
Shannon: if that's the case, you're not going to tell him, and you're not going to openly do anything. You're just going to register your disapproval, and there's going to start to be whispers, and that's probably enough. enough if there's enough of those uh members of parliament that feel um
Shannon: that maybe they might be next or that they're not being listened to or that it's a dead end uh and they're not going to win with mr polio because because carter's first sentence is actually the key here if his numbers stay as shitty as they are um
Shannon: the
Shannon: the the whispering could start into january but there's almost not not enough time for it i think it's after january when uh people start to get really uh
Shannon: uh uh skittish because his his numbers are so terrible they could improve but
Shannon: but even in the two months that might not be enough time for a real movement other than whispers and
Shannon: he might get 80 85 but even that's pretty tepid actually uh
Shannon: uh and uh but i think it's after january when the when his numbers stay shitty and Caucus gets more restive.
SPEAKER_07: I'll
Zain: jump to the two-year strategy in a moment here. I do want to ask you both
Zain: to scenario plan one element of this for me that I think could change the game, which
Zain: is a subcategory of the two-month strategy to January. But
Zain: that two months now has Mark Carney having a majority government, Shannon.
Zain: How does that... Well, then I think he's done.
Shannon: that... Well, then I think he's
Zain: How... Interesting. So give me your analysis, which I'm curious about. expand on what you just said and then and that's but still let's help help a brother out how how does he change anything we put on this smorgasbord here of tactics and strategies if carney has his majority by january which is not out of the question to be clear as we record tonight i
Shannon: think he's thought to
Carter: to be done
Shannon: done right
Carter: right well
Shannon: well
Carter: well it depends on if it drops from the nds or if it drops from the liberals i guess and
Zain: and the general number doesn't count as we as we until spring but you know there could be more to that saga who knows if that's that story is completely written
Zain: I
Zain: I
Shannon: I just think these guys turf their leaders like
Shannon: PDQ one and you're done right and this is sort of a special situation if the government fell but if it's three and a half years you actually think that people are going to sit with a leader who's 20 some odd points behind in his favorabilities I mean I have comes up to 10 behind I have thoughts here I'm curious what Carter what
Zain: I mean I have comes
Zain: I have thoughts here I'm curious what Carter what you think like I have thoughts but I'll step aside I'm curious if Carter we're in the subcategory of Carney's majority is now in place, even if it's a seat or two. And you might tell me that that's actually materially different if it's a seat or two. But tell me what the Polyev January strategy needs to look like if different from what you folks have put on the board, what the two of you put on the board, if Carney's got the majority.
Carter: Well, I think that it's functionally still a minority, right? Because every
Carter: backbencher's now got the power of taking down the government Just by shifting their support, right? So it's functionally still a minority, even if it's a majority. Do you know what I mean? Like, anybody can choose to change their vote. That's your spin in the Polyev
Zain: choose to change their vote. That's your spin in the Polyev universe, you think, though? Well,
Carter: Well, I think that that's more than just spin. I think that it would be really difficult for Mark Carney to govern as though he has a majority just because he's got one extra seat. I don't think it's fatal for Pierre. You don't, eh? I think it's devastating for him. Okay,
Zain: for him. Okay, fair, fair. But
Carter: But I do think that the
Carter: the conservatives,
Carter: conservatives, while they do throw away their leaders with alarming disregard for, you know, for
Carter: for what they, you know, they're definitely the definition of what have you done for me lately party. Pierre Polyev has a special grip on this party and has been afforded so much just by the virtue of how much he won by. You
Carter: know, this is a guy who dominated. And
Carter: And I think that he's still going to be a force
Carter: force because he knows the membership better than everybody else. He represents the membership better than anybody else.
Zain: better than anybody else. I'll let Shannon respond to this. Carter, anything you would change strategically or tactically? No.
Zain: Shannon, your thoughts on this to close us out. Carter thinks it's devastating, not fatal. Anything you would change strategically or tactically, even if your analysis is that you think he's done as an outcome of this leadership review, does this give Polyev
Zain: more latitude to do Hail Marys? Does it give him more latitude to try to swing for the fences? Anything you'd suggest he do differently if Carney's in majority territory?
Shannon: because he's still like his personal, his favorability is so bad compared to Carney. He's 20 points or more, depending on the pollster, back of Carney on best prime minister. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
Shannon: The leader numbers are what matters here, and his leader numbers are in the toilet and
Shannon: and have been for some time.
Shannon: And he has not, to my mind anyway, shown any willingness to fix
Shannon: fix those leader numbers. So, I mean, if it's two weeks or two months or two years, if he wants to hold on to his job, he also needs to invest some money in focus groups and in quantitative and all the rest of it to figure out, how do I talk about myself and how do others maybe talk about me? Not just my wife, right? When they wheeled her out to make him look more normal during the campaign. I mean, that might be part of it, but there has to be more people who think he's fine to be around, you know, and right now, like, there's like three or four people who think that he's nice. nobody else wants to talk to him i and you know or much less make him prime minister so he's he's got to i i focus on that and invest in that and show canadians even if it feels like eating crow a little bit that he heard them on this autumn
SPEAKER_00: like
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Zain: Shannon's already getting us started on the two-year thing. I like that, Shannon. This is helpful because if I'm to summarize, Carter, in a word, the
Zain: the two-week strategy is stay. You're my caucus. Stay with me, right? We can win. We can do whatever. It's whatever it takes to stay.
Shannon: takes to stay.
Zain: The two-month strategy is for the membership, but it's ultimately, you
Zain: you may argue with me on this, it's, Paulievs, you're getting more of the same. He's not changing sort of thing, right? He's bringing back the pugilist that you know that is still popular. There are tweaks that both of you have acknowledged he needs to make, soften the edges, but it's not the two-month strategy. Tell me if I'm wrong. It's not a renew, change, wholesale, new dude strategy. It is a strategy of bringing that back to the people who love it the most, which is the membership who are going to be present, mindful of the opposition, mindful of your scenario on majority. Yeah,
Carter: it's use tactics that you were – that make – That brought you here sort of thing. That brought you there, right? Remind them who you were.
Zain: Now, I'm going to venture a guess that the two-year strategy is different than that. Carter, can you get us started? Because I think Shannon's version of it is, but I want to give you a fair shake to maybe rebut that if yours actually does extend organically from a two-month strategy. For
Carter: me, it extends dramatically differently because
Zain: because
Carter: because now I want you to be likable. I want you to be the likable fighter, right? And over the course of history, there's been lots of— Happy warrior, as we've
Zain: because now
Zain: there's been lots of— Happy warrior, as we've called the composite profile in politics. Yeah, I mean,
Carter: politics. Yeah, I mean,
Carter: I had Nenshi. I've talked about how negative his campaign was in 2010. Happy warrior.
Zain: warrior.
Carter: He was very, very negative, but everybody liked him. He was a nice guy. Everybody thought he was a good guy and he was going to be a great leader, a great mayor. And because of that, they forgave him some of the techniques and tactics that he had used.
Carter: I think that Pierre Polyev needs to be more likable. Women
Carter: need to like him. They can't have alarm bells going off when they look at him. They are just far too influential, and they will shift all of the battlegrounds against him. That's one of the reasons, you know, there's
Carter: so many examples. Kevin Taft in Alberta, who was just an unlikable character who couldn't play against Ralph Klein, even in Ralph Klein's, you know,
Carter: weakest days. Was it Klein? Yeah. No, it was Stelmeck. It
Carter: It was Stelmeck that Taft was against.
Carter: And
Carter: And Klein. No, all four.
Shannon: And
Shannon: And Klein. No,
Carter: Taft was leader in all four. Okay, thank
Carter: you. Saved me.
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Zain: Likeability. Shannon, what else are you going to add to the mix? Cara, I'll come back to you in a sec.
Shannon: Well, I think that's, honestly, that's more, that's exactly what it is. But also, I mean, it's so tough because of the Trump stuff, right? But he's got to figure out a way to be tough on the things that people want him to be tough on today. Which is different than the things that they wanted him to be tough on at this time last year.
SPEAKER_00: this time last
Shannon: And maybe some of the affordability and crime stuff, you know, is coming back up in terms of issue salience. But you
Shannon: you still can't look at the guy, because Trump ain't going anywhere unless, you know, it's attack of the cheeseburgers, until, you
Shannon: know, another three years. So he's got another election cycle potentially with the Orange Menace. And so he needs to figure out a way to be, you know, not just a happy warrior, right, but also be strong in the way because people ultimately think that he, you know, they might be a little bit out on how, they're not really out on how Carney and maybe the left is dealing with Trump now. but they certainly don't think that polyamory
Shannon: polyamory will be strong on that issue at
Zain: at all
Shannon: all
Shannon: all they think he'll in fact be weak by genuflecting at the altar of fascism um and so you know that he needs to figure out a way to be strong there right as well uh and you know um
Shannon: um his
Shannon: his negativity negativity is so uh it has so much venom to
Shannon: it it's so much personalized venom that you don't you feel like he's the one like and it works because everybody hated trudeau so they're just like channeling right but now uh it just feels like mad for mad sake you almost got that out of out of don't you know when he in his sort of floor crossing uh press conference he was saying you know it was just so negative it was so you know it didn't seem constructive
SPEAKER_05: right but now uh
Shannon: needs to figure out how to talk about issues in a way that don't doesn't sound like he's got a personal axe to grind
Shannon: that he's going to war for you right with you uh that he that he understands what's what's happening to you and it's not he's almost made the the fight about him personally right
Shannon: right uh and and that that can never be the case i
Shannon: i i because the protagonist always has to be the a voter it can't be the politician well let me
Carter: present one little thesis and you guys tell me if i'm crazy and
Shannon: and
Zain: and you guys tell me if i'm crazy and i've got i've got a crazy thesis to throw at your way to both of you after this go carter pierre
Carter: pierre pauliev was only likable when compared to justin trudeau he has never been likable in any other context so as long as they're you know he needs to be likable against um against
Carter: carney or he is done i
Zain: have a different consideration for both of you which is both Both of you put likability as the
SPEAKER_05: the core of his strategy for the two-year to three-and-a-half-year category.
Zain: Your
SPEAKER_05: Your
Carter: Your
Zain: Your paper gets sent back and say, nice try. He's not willing to do it.
Carter: Your
Zain: You have to work within those parameters. Cardi, you've had to work within these parameters all the time. Shannon, you've had to work within these parameters all the fucking time.
Zain: Take me a step further. If likability is not on the table, and you can give me your analysis. You could tell me if likability is not on the table, this guy will never be prime minister. I'll happily hear those remarks. remarks but i'm also wanting to challenge you a bit to say let's say that's not on the table because it's very likely that's not on the fucking table even with attempts they've looked weird in the past he tried them remember the fucking strange smiles right so let's say likability let's just say at some point we take it off the table because it's working so fucking poorly that we decide okay we need plan b help
Carter: strange smiles
Zain: me construct plan b here i appreciate everything thing you're saying i'm going to challenge it who wants to go plan
Carter: b would be to surround them with people who are likable okay
Carter: okay
Zain: okay surround them
Carter: surround them we can only like it's one thing to be not giving up
Zain: to be not giving up on likability at all you don't think the prick can win
Carter: win you don't think prick can't win prick
Carter: can't win but prick surrounded by like his wife seemed to be human so let's make sure that his wife is more visible
Zain: sure that his wife is more visible yeah
Zain: yeah let's
Carter: yeah
Carter: yeah let's make sure that uh he's got at least a couple of advisors who uh go on on on power in politics and power play or whatever it's called and
Carter: and make it
Carter: come across as human beings as opposed to absolute assholes bring
Carter: bring Michelle Rempel-Garner out of retirement and put her back up as a human being representing him instead of So
Zain: So you empower kindness and hospitality, whatever those terms are But Lantzman is a
Carter: you empower
Carter: hospitality, whatever those
Carter: those terms are But Lantzman is a female version of him,
Carter: right?
Carter: The most unlikable, unhuman
Carter: unhuman version of a sitting member of parliament that we've ever seen.
Carter: You can't put two of them in the same room. If you've got one of them, then everybody else, all the other cyborgs have to be put into cold storage. You have to surround them with likable people, period. And why
Shannon: why the fuck we've got Andrew Scheer doing anything? It would seem to me that Canadians have already passed judgment on him in a big way. I do not understand. I mean, I guess it's loyalty and he's prized over political skill, right? Right. I would just add to what Carter said that and I think those are all really good points. You might be right, Zane, that likability is not necessarily always the number one thing. I give you Stephen Harper was prime minister for nine years in this country. Right. He's not exactly, you know, a guy that you wanted to go have a beer with unless you brought your Excel spreadsheets with you. But what the voters have to get the sense of is that, and I heard, who's the trans woman, who's the congresswoman from Delaware? She's like kind of a moderate Sarah something or other McBride.
Zain: I
Shannon: She was saying, you know, voters have two questions about you. The second question is, what do you think about things, right? The issues or whatever. But the first question is, do you like me? Do
SPEAKER_05: She
Zain: the first question
Zain: Do you like me, the voter? That's right. The
Shannon: voter? That's
Shannon: The voter. Does
Shannon: Does this politician like me? Do
Shannon: they have affinity for me?
Shannon: Or are they somewhere trying to elevate themselves above me or yelling at me or talking past me or want to be smarter than me? Or do they like me?
Shannon: And, you know, and Harper, for all of his faults, you know, he inherited the financial crisis, some of these things, right? That, like, people were like, oh, okay, he's got my back, he likes me, right? Right?
Shannon: And that might be the piece for polyamory, right? Like, think about other people for once in your life, buddy. For a hot second, the existence of other people is a real thing, and find common cause with them. maybe channel that less so like of like i'm nice guy i like puppies whatever um and more think about uh how do you communicate uh how you you like people you empathize with them you uh you want to be on their side you want to hang out with them you want to talk to them this
SPEAKER_05: For a hot second,
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Zain: I'm going to propose a theory to you to round us out on this episode. And you tell me the holes in it and you tell me if there's any strengths in it.
Zain: Pierre-Paul Lievre, in the long term, the two-year, is actually running back the same playbook.
Zain: Here's what I mean. He doesn't care about the external environment at all. He continues to be a prick. Let Carney get his win on Trump. Let Carney sour on himself. Be pugilist against Carney. But do one thing that you did exceptionally well that I still don't think Pierre Polyev gets enough credit for, which is see into the future. Pierre Polyev was the first person on, and we were making fun of him, you and I, Carter, when he did that lumber video on inflation. He was the first guy that brought up cost of living. And he saw into the future. It's a tough task, but if you're not likable, Pierre Polyev, you better be able to look into the fucking future. And what if that is the strategy for Pierre Polyev over the course of the next two and a half years? Generate, find, do whatever you need to find the next big thing to rally this country around that you are first and on the right side of, because you've got really no other path with Carney because you're not a good fit. Trump, you're not a good fit. Likeability, we've seen it. You're not a good fit. Tell me if there's any value in what I put on the table, Carter. Tell me what the holes are.
Carter: I mean, how
Carter: good is your Ouija board?
Carter: Like, to me, it is just... To predict.
Carter: Yeah, it's... I mean, there's... He did it...
Zain: it's... I mean, there's... He did it...
Zain: unbelievably impressively once, so I'm not asking him to kind of like,
Zain: maybe twice is too much, but you keep going here. Lightning in a bottle, you might not give him the credit that he deserves.
Carter: in a bottle, you might not give him the credit that he deserves. It's not a strategy. It's
Carter: throwing dice. You
Carter: think that's what he did with inflation? I think to be able to address this strategy,
Zain: that's what he did with
Zain: think to be able to address this strategy, we have to understand what he did.
Carter: did. I think he threw the dice and they came up aces. I
Zain: tend to give him more credit than that, but interesting. I'll accept it. I'm asking in good faith, Shannon. Your thoughts What's on this path for Pierre Poliev? Well,
Shannon: you know, it doesn't take a fucking rocket psychologist to figure out that, you know, cost of living, affordability, even at that time, right, when people were trying to book their summer vacations in 2021. I remember people, you know, just talking about how expensive it was compared to prior in 22, like compared to, you know, 21 or 20. money um so for sure there's that uh and you can see that that affordability is not going away anytime soon right uh that um you know there's been a bit of softening of interest rates and stuff but like uh you know uh housing mortgage isn't going to change the grocery store is not uh you know going to go down in price for christ's sakes my wages are stagnant or a lot of people's right like that's that's the calculation for people so that that part is going to get worse so sure you can predict the future on that that housing affordability uh probably
Zain: probably
Shannon: probably like let's just
Zain: probably like let's just come out of left here like let immigrant i'm gonna throw i hate to throw this out as a real world example immigration let's just say he throws that out and says makes the entire thing about immigration except
Shannon: except the liberals have completely taken that off the table now right and so the the thing that he had was an explanation of why it's the government's fault that lumber is too expensive right when it was demonstrably not justin trudeau's fault it wasn't the fucking carbon tax it wasn't anything that came out of a federal budget that made lumber more expensive and same goes for you know trying to buy a bag of chips in the grocery store or anything else it wasn't justin trudeau's fault but he had a convenient cudgel that the liberals did not take out of his hand he was coming at them with the nail out of the carbon tax every day all day because he had a reason why you could blame the government right right now he doesn't have a reason to blame the government the problems are obvious and they're going to remain obvious um but he needs like and and everywhere he's reaching the government is just thank you very much and taking the nail bat out of his hand right whether Whether it's carbon tax or whether it's immigration or whether it's, you know, we'll see what happens with housing or defense or any of these other things. You know, they've neutralized him on every explanation for your woes. So, finding things that will rile people up, that will make people want to get rid of the government, that's where he
Zain: right and so
SPEAKER_00: so
SPEAKER_00: right right
Shannon: needs to look into the future on what is the government's fault. What can I plausibly blame the government for?
Shannon: Even though I was lying to Stace off on the carbon tax, it was still plausible because it was one thing that was new, right? I
Carter: Even though I was lying to Stace off on
Carter: I just don't know that anybody's that good. To
Shannon: don't know that
Carter: be able to do it once is a really impressive parlor trick. You're probably right.
Shannon: a really
Zain: really
Zain: impressive parlor
Zain: You're probably right. You're probably right.
Zain: Most
Carter: Most of us live in the present, not in the future.
SPEAKER_07: This Wednesday, the doors to Knox United blow open and the Strategy Room goes live. A podcast that takes no prisoners. The Strategist, live taping Wednesday, November 12th, 7.30 p.m. knox united church tickets as low as 30 bucks at strategist live.show get in get loud speaking
Zain: of the future uh wednesday carter sorry we're not promoting it no we're not promoting it it is really good about it really disciplined but we've been extremely disciplined this
SPEAKER_07: we're
SPEAKER_07: is really good about it really disciplined but
SPEAKER_07: this wednesday the doors to knox united blow open and the strategy room goes live podcast that takes no prisoners the strategist live taping wednesday november 12 7 30 p.m knox united church tickets as low as 30 bucks at strategist live.show get in get loud and
Zain: with that we're gonna leave it there that's a wrap on episode 1892 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velgey. With me as always, Shannon Phillips, Stephen Carter, and we shall see you next
Zain: next time.
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