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Zain: is the Strategist episode 1890. Stop everything,
Carter: Stop everything, Zane! There's no time! There's no time for the intro. We've got to talk instead about the fantastic live show that we're doing on November the 12th At a church, Knox United Church, starting at $7.30 unless you buy the VIP experience. It's not just a package, Zane. It's an experience. You're just blowing
Zain: blowing
Carter: blowing your load all
Zain: all at the same time, Carter. It's
Carter: It's all happening, brother. It pays. It's all happening. It pays.
Shannon: brother.
Zain: brother. It
Shannon: It
Zain: It pays. It's all happening. It pays.
Carter: No. What city?
Zain: What city? Everybody needs to know. What city is it? I need some
Carter: Everybody needs to know. What city is it? I need some
Carter: some basic detail. Yes, Carter, what city? Knox United Church.
Zain: basic detail. Yes, Carter, what
Zain: November 12th. Everybody knows that. What do you mean everyone knows that? Everyone
Carter: November
Shannon: November 12th. Everybody knows that.
Carter: that.
Zain: knows that. Everyone
Zain: knows that. Okay, so it
Shannon: that. Okay, so it starts
Carter: it starts
Zain: starts
Shannon: starts at 7.30. If I show up at 7.30, I'm paying how much, Carter?
Zain: starts at 7.30.
SPEAKER_00: If
Zain: If
Carter: $30, which is like nothing. It's like free. If I show
Shannon: If I show up at 6.30, what am I paying and what am I getting? $75. That's a lot of money. You're getting the VIP
Carter: That's a lot of money. You're getting the VIP experience, which is catered, which is why it's so much money. We're catering it?
Shannon: We're
Zain: We're catering
Shannon: catering
Zain: catering it?
Carter: We're catering it. Why are we catering it?
Zain: catering it.
Zain: Why
Shannon: Why
Carter: Well,
Carter: there's a motif.
Carter: Which is what?
Carter: Tell people. Don't shrug it. I don't think we're
Shannon: people.
Shannon: Don't shrug it. I don't think we're not telling people, are we? Oh, yeah. It's a funeral.
Carter: Oh, yeah. It's a funeral. Yeah,
Shannon: Yeah, it's a funeral. So you
Shannon: you expect, you
Shannon: you know, refreshments at a funeral. Yeah. Do you? Yes. Of
Carter: Yeah. Do you? Yes. Of course.
Zain: course. Oh, my God. Okay. Let's take this back. Yes. Plus, you have to have pickles. We are indeed. This is not a joke. Let's start here. This is not a joke.
Shannon: Plus,
Carter: Plus, you have to have pickles. We are indeed. This
Carter: know, it's when we say this is not a joke that we lose a lot of credibility. November
Zain: November 12th, Knox United Church. Carter's booking. I will say he's deep into the Christians. He's got access points. Christians
Carter: access points. Christians are deep into me. Okay.
Zain: Fantastic.
Carter: Fantastic.
Zain: Fantastic. In Calgary. It's a nice venue.
Carter: Fantastic.
Shannon: It's a nice
Shannon: venue.
Zain: 7.30 to 9.30. Carter, ultimately, here's how you win over someone like me, okay? For the other three brown listeners of this show, this is two shows in one, okay? Two. You're getting two shows in one, Carter. Two shows. Explain, Carter, how folks are getting two shows for the price of one unless they want to pay for more and then get, I guess, food.
SPEAKER_04: Carter. Two shows.
Carter: It's like food. Dude, it's like a third show because you get to spend time with us. Okay, so that's the VIP experience. Okay.
Zain: Okay, so that's the VIP experience. Okay. The
Carter: The VIP experience also comes with a free Zane Velji for Leader sign. Yeah. Signed by you. Oh, is it signed by me? Yeah. This is all news to me. You're going to be signing autographs. Oh, fantastic. You've got a little table. Yeah. It's right at the end of the reception line. How many have we sold so far?
Zain: news to me.
Zain: Oh, fantastic. You've got a little table.
Zain: have we sold so far? How
Carter: many have we sold? Yeah, of those
Zain: sold? Yeah, of those VIP experiences. We
Carter: We
Carter: We have sold over 30% of our VIP experiences. What does that mean in raw numbers? It's
Carter: about 30. Okay, that's not bad. That's more
Zain: more things I've signed. That'll be quite a few things for me to sign.
Carter: more things I've signed.
Carter: And
Zain: And
Carter: And it's an evergreen lawn sign,
Zain: it's an evergreen lawn sign, once again. It's an evergreen. Folks are
Carter: Folks are not aware, I
Zain: are not aware, I will be signing on behalf of Zane Velji for leader.
SPEAKER_04: I
Zain: I am the designated proxy for Zane Velji for leader, who's a different person, who is not me, who is a choice that everyone has every time there's an election. You can write in Zane Velji for leader.
SPEAKER_06: And we're hoping to make
Zain: make a mark in every single election. So I need some very
Shannon: So I need some very basic information here. This is in Calgary? Yeah. What day again? November
Carter: very
Zain: here.
Zain: Yeah. What day again?
Carter: November the 12th.
Shannon: Okay.
Carter: That's good.
Zain: good. We're four minutes deep. Have we talked about a URL? We have not chatted and there's a reason. And
Carter: We're four minutes deep. Have we talked about a URL? We have not
Shannon: And that was, I was, okay. Now we need to know, how do I buy the tickets? Okay. Here
Zain: the tickets? Okay. Here we go. So this is, okay. I think I'm stretching out for this, Carter. We're both getting ready. Here we go. You got to get ready. We've got a few options and ultimately we've got only one option. Let's start with where they shouldn't go. Okay. This is true. We can make a big list. TheStrategists.ca is our main website. You could go there, and you'd expect that there'd be links to the live show. There won't be. No, thanks. So don't go there. Now, you might be thinking, wait, TheStrategistsLive.ca.
Zain: Unfortunately, as much as that makes sense, and we do own that site, it is forwarded to Flair Airlines. So that is actually a Flair Airlines formal forward that we've had to do. Formal forward is, of course, the contractual term that they have stipulated. Now, you'd say, okay, drop the the. Strategistlive.ca. Strategistlive.com. Doesn't it sound easy? It's easy. It was easy because that was the URL for our previous live show at the Grand. Now, those tickets are not on sale, but you can still go to those websites. So as it relates for you to be going somewhere that you can go and get to, strategistlive.ca and .com, Carter, those are good websites.
SPEAKER_06: stipulated.
Carter: websites. They both work. Now,
Zain: Now, as it relates to the more particular question of where they need to go in order to buy tickets for this show, Carter, what
Zain: what solution have you come up with? I assume you've ported one of these sites to the new URL. No. Or have you not done that? No, you have not done that. Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_02: you
Carter: you not done that? No,
SPEAKER_02: you have
Carter: Corey is the only one who retains the responsibility for those URLs and has been unable to provide us with either the information so that we could redirect them or the ability to redirect them himself. So we have created as a solution. Oh, this is a solution.
Zain: and
SPEAKER_04: and has
Carter: solution seems like an overwrought solution that i
Zain: like an overwrought solution that i think is about to come up
Carter: strategists live dot show that show actually
Carter: takes you to the uh the ticket office show pass ticket office uh so you can you can buy your tickets right there and i'll tell you something you remember how we've been screwed by arts commons we're
Carter: getting screwed by the church too a buck fifty a buck fifty it's way less than the eight dollars significant less fuckery than the
Zain: buck
Shannon: buck fifty
Zain: fifty a
Zain: dollars significant less fuckery than the The Workland Center, as they now like to be called in their official capacity. Yeah,
Carter: to
Carter: Yeah, you know what? I'm less concerned about what they want when they take eight bucks out of every ticket we sell. They
Zain: sell. They took a lot of our money. This is true, Shannon. Shannon, you are almost a proxy for the audience here. Have you gotten every piece of critical information? Who cares who's on stage? We haven't mentioned it. You're going to be there. Carter's going to be there. I'm going to be there. I'm going to be there. Annalise is going to be there, of course. Annalise is going to be there. Carter, have you talked about the two parts of the show? Have you talked about any of this? We invited Corey
Carter: be there. I'm going to be there.
Carter: course. Annalise is going to be there. Carter, have you talked about the
Carter: Corey I guess how much I've heard back
Carter: Squat I don't know if Corey's coming or not
Carter: Zero news from that guy Corey has a
Shannon: has a job It's
Zain: It's not an important one from what I can tell We all have jobs We all do work
Shannon: not an important one from
Shannon: I can tell We all have
Carter: have
Shannon: have jobs
Shannon: do
Carter: do work
Carter: Some
Zain: Some of us more, some of us less
Carter: of us more, some of us less
Zain: Fucking lame ass job If you ask me His job is to get His
Carter: His job is to get His job is to get fucked over
Zain: job is to get fucked over on Thursday so the show is going to go
Carter: the show is going to go like this zane oh please you've got a show flow yeah
Zain: zane oh please you've got a show flow yeah
Zain: yeah
Carter: yeah okay the first act of the show is going to be the carter accountability episode okay that's
Zain: okay the first
Zain: okay that's
Carter: that's
Carter: the everybody's asking for it people want it they want me to be held to account now let me let me clear this up this
Zain: now let me let me clear this up this is the episode in which we spend time uh telling stephen carter something he's known the whole time but has pretended he hasn't known which is he's not as good as he thinks he is
Carter: Oh, that's not true. That's, well, interesting
Carter: interesting framing. Oh, interesting.
Zain: Oh,
Zain: interesting.
Carter: interesting.
Carter: Okay.
Zain: Okay.
Carter: Okay. Incorrect. Second act. You want to hear the second act? Is there an
Zain: Okay.
Zain: second act? Is there an intermission? Tell people. Will they get to... Yeah, there is an
Carter: Yeah, there is an intermission. They'll get to pee in the church. And here's the thing. Okay.
Zain: intermission. They'll get to pee in the church. And here's the thing. Okay. 30
Carter: to 40% of our previous audiences have left at the intermission thinking that it's a joke. Yes. That there is, in fact, a second act. And there is a second act.
Zain: intermission thinking that it's
SPEAKER_04: it's
Zain: it's
SPEAKER_04: it's
SPEAKER_04: a joke.
Zain: joke. Yes.
Carter: Honestly, we're not joking with you. The second act is... Definitely more people are going
Zain: act is... Definitely more people are going to leave now.
Carter: I know, right?
Carter: We have a credibility issue. You have
Zain: have a credibility issue. I think people believe me.
Carter: credibility issue.
Zain: No, they don't. I think that's true.
Carter: Anyways, the second act is going to be a regular strategist podcast app or recording and with special guests. We have a special guest coming for that recording that no one knows about. I don't even think I've told you to. No,
Zain: No, I don't even know. I don't know. I literally found out I'm signing lawn signs and that there are lawn signs with my name on them, which, by the way, is both terrifying and simultaneously long time coming.
Carter: don't even know. I don't know. I
Carter: found
Carter: Wait until
Carter: until you see them. They are spectacular. They're in my basement right now.
Zain: Yes. Okay. Shannon, have you, in the last nine minutes of promo, received
Zain: received all the critical information that you feel like you would need? It's been so long
Shannon: feel like you would need? It's been so long
Shannon: long that it's hard for me to remember that the show is on November 12th in Calgary at Knox United Church. I go to strategistlive.ca,
Zain: strategistlive.ca, which is if they want to book a flight from
Shannon: if they want to book a flight
Zain: Flare Alliance.
Shannon: Alliance.
Shannon: Strategistlive.show.
Shannon: I show up at 7.30 if I want the $30 ticket. I show up at 6.30 if I want the $75 ticket. You also have to pay.
Carter: ticket. You also have to pay. You have to pay for the tickets. You just can't show up. That's
Shannon: pay for the tickets. You
Shannon: up. That's why I went to strategistlive
Carter: I went to strategistlive.show. I
Zain: strategistlive.show.
Shannon: .show.
Zain: .show. I went to a show.
Carter: I
Zain: I
Shannon: I
Shannon: I went to Strategist Live, though it's a show. You
Carter: I went to Strategist
Zain: Strategist
Shannon: You completed a transaction.
Zain: You completed a transaction. Okay, yeah. I
Shannon: I completed a transaction. Those are my two times that I'm showing up with my ticket. I sit for two acts, one of which will be people
Zain: Those are my
Shannon: people telling Carter mean things, and then another one will have a special guest. There.
Carter: Yeah. Hang on, I'm just checking. No one has bought tickets during that promo. Okay, well, 10
Zain: minutes is actually a record for us. This usually takes a good 25. Corey
Zain: adds to the lengthening Corey drags it up I
SPEAKER_04: lengthening
Carter: lengthening
SPEAKER_04: lengthening
Carter: lengthening Corey drags it up I appreciate Shannon's summarization It's better than ChatGPT He probably sold more tickets than the first nine minutes It's better than ChatGPT That's good,
SPEAKER_04: I appreciate
Zain: appreciate
SPEAKER_04: appreciate
Zain: appreciate
SPEAKER_04: better
Zain: better than ChatGPT He probably sold more tickets
Zain: That's good, okay You ready to do a show?
Carter: The last episode was just a promo I feel like I wasn't on
Zain: wasn't on that, I don't think you were either, Shannon Was it just you, Carter?
Carter: you, Carter? I just did a promo Carter's a dog
Zain: Carter's a dog with a bone on this live show, I like it
Zain: Okay, let's do a couple things let's talk about the budget coming up um let's talk about carney's retreat uh and ford's retreat quote unquote on the fordad but before that let's do a check-in with bill two in alberta let's do a check-in on the same three um groups that i asked you guys to do a strategy for last time we talked publicly about this that would be the ndp that
Carter: couple things let's
Zain: would be the union slash labor slash the specific union of the ata and that would be the ucp where do you want to start shannon i'll give you first sort of dibs in terms of which one of these three groups you want to tackle and of course we talked We talked about the GenPOP uprising and the civil society uprising, so to speak, so we can tag that one on. But amongst the first three, where do you want to start to kind of comment about how we feel six days, full six days later?
Shannon: I think I'll start with the UCP because I'm really curious as to what Carter thinks about, and we'll probably go back and forth a little bit on the unions and the NDP. But on the UCP, you know, we saw some footage last night, I think it was, of Rajan Soni doing a
Zain: bit on the
Shannon: a town hall. that went horribly south and people were yelling at her and so on.
SPEAKER_04: town hall.
SPEAKER_01: hall.
SPEAKER_01: And
SPEAKER_02: And
SPEAKER_02: And
Shannon: while it might not be as dramatic
Shannon: dramatic as that, the next little while is going to feel a little bit tender for the UCP. It's going to hurt a little. There's going to be a little bit of lactic acid buildup from what
Shannon: what they did six weeks ago. It is going to hurt. um
Shannon: um this
Shannon: this is political season this is the season when people are out doing you know you're going to the charity dinners on the weekends you are uh doing all kinds of events at the legislature different groups end up there so when you're in session you're busy busy uh this is the time of year that burns politicians out because you kind of like fall down dead at around december 21st expected to be ready for christmas and you're absolutely not just because you've been given since basically
Carter: expected to
Shannon: basically mid-september um but this is the time that's really busy and this is when they will meet with constituents and they'll run into people and it will not be pleasant uh
Shannon: and because people are ginned up like the segment of the population that's pissed is really pissed and it's going to be unpleasant for them of course we've seen the leger numbers uh that were both the horse race and the leader favor abilities were not great uh for the ucp um and
Shannon: and if it continues they've got a a real problem on their hands carter
Zain: carter you suggested two things that are tied to one another in some way which is danielle smith needs to be the principal spokesperson and then we commented on our last episode in an extra that she was leaving the country i do not believe she is back yet unless you guys okay she's still out she's not back till next week
Shannon: she's not back till next week okay
Zain: okay as we record here on sunday night so she's not back yet so spokesperson issue number one that you'd highlighted you also gave them the strategic and tactical advantage of potentially taking the w on this thing.
Zain: Do you want to reassess or give me further analysis now that we have a week in the can? I
Carter: think Rajan Salani was targeted by a group of activists who attended a meeting. Instead of asking questions at the town hall, they targeted Rajan. And I think that that's okay. I think that that's a good tactic. I think that they should do those types of activities at MLA town halls. but i don't think that that necessarily represents the group view uh the feedback i was getting from parents continues to be oh thank goodness my kids back in school thank goodness my kids back in school and you
Carter: you know does it screw over the teachers it may you
Carter: you know but you know we
Carter: we don't like strikes we
Carter: we don't like strikes so people you
Carter: you know just were happy and they did what they needed to do and and i still think that while there is a vocal minority that are pissed
SPEAKER_04: they did what they
Carter: pissed about this i think it is a i think it is a minority i do not think that it is a majority of the population that's that's uh taking to the streets and uh you know i i walked past the school in my neighborhood the other day and you know we love the teachers all scrawled in in chalk by one person you
Carter: you know but But
Carter: that's it.
Carter: That's all I'm seeing.
Zain: Shannon, what's your take here? Like, expanding
Zain: expanding this out from the UCP a bit, do you feel like the cake is baked here on kind of the trajectory of this thing in the sense that does this get louder from here or have we already peaked on the issue with Monday, Tuesday of last week in your mind?
Shannon: I think it sets the stage for whatever the next thing is that pisses people off about the government.
Shannon: So you think on this issue,
Zain: So you think on this issue, it may have peaked? Is that fair to say? Not to put words in your mouth, but I'm curious.
SPEAKER_06: issue,
Shannon: issue,
SPEAKER_06: it
Shannon: it may
Shannon: to say? Not to put words
Shannon: but I'm curious.
Shannon: Yeah, I do, because I don't see anybody else out there buying
Shannon: buying their way into the conversation at all. I don't see ads anymore from the ATA. I don't see them from the broader labor movement. I don't see a whole lot of content coming from the opposition on this topic. So, yeah, I do. And so in that sense, Carter is right. But I think where he's he may be wrong is the the low level boil that
SPEAKER_07: I don't see ads
Shannon: that they've now created in a whole bunch of people that were not necessarily previously politicized. And I would also put in that a lot of high school students who will be voting next time around and are doing they did do their walkouts and it did politicize kids that weren't necessarily going to be political because, you know, health care doesn't get them up in the morning because they're too young. Right. So I do think that there is something there. It is a
Shannon: a stepping stone to other conversations or whether it's separatism or other things that piss people off about the government.
Shannon: And
Shannon: I think that the UCP's numbers have gotten a bit soft. They always do during a strike. I said this from the very beginning, right? The employer always pays a price.
Shannon: Elongating that is a question that I don't think anybody's answered. Carter, cake's
Zain: cake's
Carter: cake's baked?
Carter: think the cake's relatively baked. I think that the unions had a chance to throw some spices in the cake, and they
Carter: talked a good game. You know, Gil McGowan, head of AFL, talked. There was lots of talking. Talking happened. Damn it. They
Carter: They talked. And
Carter: that was it. And
Carter: now we're a week later and nothing's happened. And I don't anticipate anything is going to happen. I was talking with a union member today who said they were expecting information at the end of last week on what was going to happen. And they didn't get anything. thing so you
Carter: you know i i i fear that you
Carter: know i i'm interested in the low boil right like i'm intrigued with that i i'm invested in that i want that to be the case uh that that you know i i don't like this government with the passion of a thousand sons but i i i
Carter: don't know i i think the general population wants their kids in school and you know um they don't care about the things that I think they should be caring about, you know, and the labor movement didn't make this any bigger, didn't make the cake any better or any more tasty. That's for damn sure. I'll
Zain: I'll get back to the note with standing close because that's where I want to go next. But Carter's brought up labor, Shannon.
Zain: Shannon. So let's talk about labor as group number two. This
SPEAKER_06: This
Zain: This
SPEAKER_06: This
Zain: This is one of the four groups that we discussed. We talked about what labor needed to do in advance of this. The AFL, Gil McGowan's kind of taken the mic on behalf of labor, and I guess rightfully so. in some ways you you folks might disagree but he took the mic said be aware of a general strike and uh to summarize hopefully charitably they said okay we've we met we got together this is on the heels of that legislation and we are now going to begin the work to plan and prepare for a eventual potential general strike um and reaffirmed their sort of desire to have recall call votes and
SPEAKER_06: and to defeat the government i
Zain: think that's a pretty comprehensive i might there might be a few additional steps there and to begin the work of organizing so you might see ads and other things by unions that may not have traditionally done so and may have kind of signed and committed to such where
Zain: do you think that leaves the labor movement when there was a lot of folks that wanted that general strike were prepared for that general strike at least being told that that's what to expect do
Zain: you think it's off the table here and you even saw the government kind of taunt labor in terms of okay if this is what you got bring it well
Shannon: i i i don't know if that should have been the first go-to uh because it is like like for labor to talk about as a strategy of like okay here's how we're going to fight back because uh the bar is so high and it is so difficult to achieve they are almost certainly uh not going to meet it at least not in the short term and like i mean general strikes only going to happen when people are like really feeling their feels and there's a high degree of emotionality and then they walk so
SPEAKER_01: uh because
Zain: because it is like like for labor to
SPEAKER_00: there's a high degree
Shannon: so i i did have questions about setting that up as the the goal it felt like maybe uh setting things up for for failure and i think you saw the government kind of taunt them on that because
Shannon: because they know that too they understand uh how high the stakes are for the fines and going to jail um
SPEAKER_04: they understand
Shannon: i was a little confused uh i just went and read the legislation uh that they passed because i wanted to be sure about this there's no prohibition on speech for the ata they are locked into like an absolute bucket of shit collective agreement until 2028 um
Shannon: um by this legislation uh with no ability to do judicial review or or of the legislation but
SPEAKER_00: or of
Shannon: but there's nothing prohibiting their speech in that legislation and i i'm very confused as to you why i haven't heard a lot from them or from uh
Shannon: uh the federation of labor just on the paid side to keep communicating their side uh
Shannon: or component unions or others maybe it's coming uh but uh they knew that the notwithstanding clause was coming and they also knew they were going to be legislated back uh because it was you know widely understood and i i remember saying to you zane if they are still out by the time we go into session they will legislate them back there's no question in So
Zain: if they
Zain: So it's
Shannon: it's not like people didn't have, you
Carter: it's not like people
Shannon: you know, any kind of notice on like when to start like, you know, hiring the creative people and booking their ads. So I'm very confused as to why I'm seeing just absolutely nothing. It's like nothing happened, right?
Shannon: right? 48 hours after they go back to work.
SPEAKER_00: 48 hours
Shannon: And I don't understand why they're not, you know, like if they are going to make it hurt for the government beyond, you know, the usual dip in polls in a strike, that's going to take, you know, striking while the iron's hot and investing in, you know, a paid strategy and also probably some sort of communications. I haven't seen any of it and paired with
Zain: of
Zain: of it and paired with some sort of legal strategy on top of that, which which I don't think three of us would be the most aligned or sort of most qualified to speak on Carter. No,
Shannon: of us would be the most
Shannon: No, but I haven't seen that either. And so that's been a little confusing. I
Zain: I pitch Shannon's question to you. I do nothing other than pitch it to you, which is to say I have the same question in some ways, which is we know that this could be considered and probably is an existential moment in Alberta labor history. history um if the fight back does not include a general strike okay it doesn't include a general strike um what else doesn't include what like and in one reason it doesn't include it is because we're working towards it okay what else should it include at this point and kind of taking shannon's question extending it a bit and trying to make it a bit more strategic in the sense of carter you had the ability to put into the bucket what it needs to look like what does this look look like if this is the existential threat right now and you could you could make this about ata as a as an association labor union or you can make this about broader labor your choice well
Carter: let's stick to broader labor and just kind of keep it there i mean the the things that happened immediately after the legislating back i mean we saw uh a quick afl meeting we saw a quick um uh canadian congress i think it was labor congress meeting in in edmonton or in calgary i can't even remember which city but that was the extent of it and you
Zain: labor congress meeting
Carter: know politics isn't you know politics is a game
Carter: of two sides right at least two sides so if you make a move zane i get to make a move and
Shannon: and
Carter: and i get to anticipate your next move and my question for labor leaders is when you went on strike were you not anticipating being uh
Carter: uh you know legislated back and legislated into a contract and why didn't you have your next move ready that day why didn't you have your next move like it seemed to take everybody by surprise except shannon phillips and the listeners of the strategist podcast i
Carter: i
Zain: i will tell I will tell you, just to fully admit, it did, the notwithstanding element took me by surprise. Legislating back did not. And I think, Shannon, you've suggested to me that one was not possible without the other, at least, or was it? See, this is, we're getting into the legal. It may or may
Carter: i will
Carter: will tell I will tell you,
Shannon: legal. It may or may not have been. Correct, correct. I don't want to pretend lawyers here, but I mean, I think this whole business of like, I
SPEAKER_01: Correct,
Carter: Correct, correct. I don't want to pretend lawyers here,
Carter: I
Zain: I mean, I
Shannon: mean, let's face it. Materiality
Zain: Materiality would have been not. These
Shannon: would have been not. These people don't give a shit about
SPEAKER_00: These people
Zain: people
SPEAKER_00: people
Shannon: about the Constitution. constitution so i
Zain: about the
Shannon: mean from that sense like it was entirely predictable carter
Zain: was entirely predictable
Zain: predictable carter you're on a roll i don't want to interrupt you there but i will add that it didn't yeah it
Carter: i
Shannon: i will add that it
Carter: it didn't yeah
Carter: it didn't matter right
Carter: it doesn't matter if the use of the notwithstanding should only amp up your response only give you more strength right
Carter: right with the unprecedented nature agree agree you you should have had a an action plan that everybody agreed to that everybody's going to take advantage of um and the fact that they didn't have an action plan kind of showed us that um things
Zain: with the unprecedented nature agree agree you
Carter: things
Carter: weren't uh they didn't anticipate the next move of the government and now a week has passed and a week in this type of political environment is forever right
Carter: right you you may as well let a man a month pass and the actions that need to be taken at this point you may have lost this game now right
SPEAKER_04: right you
Carter: you you may not get the opportunity to go back and say okay we're we're now going to start something unless you are prepared to do a work to rule unless you are prepared to do something that may face fines you are in a position where it may not be wise um for the ata and other unions to jump on board of this thing you have to make a decision that you are prepared for real shit to go down and i don't think i don't think they are well
Zain: well okay but talk to me if carter was uh designing the game plan for them for monday morning tomorrow november 3rd going forward knowing he couldn't change the past what would tomorrow morning look like would you say okay devote 10 million to an ad spend or would you say fuck that the time for that is lost or yes and but you need to do something else dramatic like i'm trying to get an understanding of your point that the window may be closing but it's not closed what would carter design for a not closed window
Carter: i'd be making sure that people understand what teachers are valuable you know i do a work to rule i
Carter: do a work to rule and i'd buy a 10 million million ad campaign to support my work to rule and i put it and i'd ask every labor organization across the country to raise money for the inevitable fines and i'd be if i'm shelling i'd be uh getting ready to go to jail yeah
Zain: ready to go to jail yeah because
Carter: because
Carter: because it is absolutely absolutely imperative that you do something that is going to capture the attention of of uh of parents and work to rule uh can you know it could take everything from rotating strikes to just simply i think we talked last last time about uh shutting down the the the basketball teams right like you're you're not going to coach anymore you're not going to uh
SPEAKER_04: right like you're
Carter: uh assist with lunchrooms you're not going to do prep outside of the classroom um
Carter: um you know that that
Carter: could be everything up to and including uh impacting students in the education that they're that they're receiving needs to be on the table today
Carter: today i agree today we're talking about sports next week we're going to start curtailing english classes we're going to start we're going to focus entirely on social studies everything is going to be social studies for the next week right
Shannon: today i agree
Carter: right everybody
Carter: wants social studies we're going to talk about i mean we had a young woman over here today who was in grade nine and who's you know supposed to be talking about the constitution and their teacher is pushed off talking about the notwithstanding clause in the constitution because she doesn't want to bring bias into the classroom and i just think that is you know the wrong fucking way to go bring the fucking bias let's go let's go time to go toe-to-toe with this government shannon
Zain: shannon you you you seem to agree with a lot of what carter said here add on well
Shannon: i agree with the urgency of it because nothing else will communicate it to people i mean uh and i don't know if now is not the time that i'm not sure when is uh you know i mean i know that teachers feel a great deal of stress on getting kids uh caught up i i happen to know that that's how they're feeling right now because Because, I mean, any kind of work to rule puts
Carter: on getting
Shannon: teachers in a degree of basically like moral distress, right? Because they are not then doing all of the extra work that they do to create the learning environment they do.
Shannon: Having said that, I don't know when else you would demonstrate to government that they have fucked around. There is a find out phase. And if they don't like it, they can go back into the House, amend that legislation, and put this into some kind of other process to get them out of this work-to-rule thing. To me, to my mind, that's the way to call them on it. That and, you know, a $5 million ad spend until Danny comes home, right?
Shannon: right? Because she's still tooting around with the Emiratis while she should be here running a health care and education system.
SPEAKER_00: while she
Zain: system.
Zain: Carter,
Shannon: Carter, you
Zain: you
Zain: don't think this will happen. Do
Zain: you think any version of this will happen? Do you think anything that both of you have laid out on the table or agreed with will happen?
Carter: think we're seeing the belly of the labor movement. We're supposed to scratch it.
Zain: So what can broader labor do if ATA is not going to do these moves? They don't have control over the ATA, but the Federation and other, and I know we're getting deep into labor politics, but when else, folks? Right. In some ways, this is this is the existential moment. So let's talk about it. What can the broader movement, allied organization, labor congresses, what can they do in this moment, if anything? Shannon, do you want to take a stab at this first? Well,
Shannon: I mean, the good news is, is that some of the financial pieces have been made so that, you know, unions can give a little bit and there's more third party advertising that can happen and that kind of thing. Because they had some restrictions that have now been lifted. So I think obviously, they should use them.
SPEAKER_06: and that kind
Shannon: And I think that they should be there for on the legal
Shannon: legal strategy. But honestly, there's
Shannon: there's almost nothing that a labor central can do at
SPEAKER_01: at this
Shannon: this point.
SPEAKER_01: this
Shannon: And if I
Shannon: I were a labor central, I would be asking myself, how much more am I going to do, given that this organization, the ETA, does not pay dues into the Federation of Labor? This would be a move for solidarity
Zain: This would be a move for solidarity rather than defense of a paying dude member, so to speak. Is that fair enough? Because they're not affiliated
Shannon: fair enough? Because they're not affiliated to the House of Labour and never have been.
Shannon: And so, you know, if they wanted that kind of solidarity, then their members and their local presidents and others should be going to their next executive council meetings and saying why we should benefit from the broader protections that being affiliated to the House of Labour brings us.
Zain: Carter, while I agree with what Shannon's saying, for the most part, I do think there is obviously a very selfish aspect to all of this, which is, if they can do this to the teachers, they can do this to anyone. I'm like, this, this, fuck this, the downstream effects here are blindingly obvious. obvious. So
Zain: So for labor to step in, even if it's a not due paying member, and there's a history there, and there's, I'm sure, a very complicated, interesting history that we can write a book about in terms of why, and Shannon and I have kind of scratched the surface in a previous episode around the ATA and their union side and their professional association side to get started on that. But Carter, this
SPEAKER_04: for
SPEAKER_04: for labor
Zain: this existential level threat is not just about the teachers, but any labor organization negotiation going forward. What
Zain: can and should they do here? I know you've laid out your game plan for the teachers what what can uh labor central or a labor central organization like shannon's mentioned do here tell
Carter: their members that this is coming for them next right
Carter: tell their members this is coming for you next we need to we need to get militant we need to get ready we need to get prepared and then you need to put the chessboard on the table and start making your moves because
Carter: because in you
Carter: you know you're going to let's
SPEAKER_06: let's
Carter: let's say you spend your aupe or your uh the uh health Health Sciences, whatever their acronym is. HSA, is that the one?
Carter: Yes. Sure, let's say that.
Zain: Yes. Sure,
Carter: You're going to be the next ones on the front, right? UNA has already, United Nurses of Alberta have already signed their deal.
Carter: You're the ones who are going to be facing this next. And you need to make sure that you're prepared so that
Carter: that when it happens, not if it happens, When it happens, you've got the game plan and the battle plan to actually do what the teacher should have done, which is to start, you know, on day one, you know, being militant and actually activating your membership, doing the wildcat strikes, doing the work to rules, doing all the pieces, bringing in the other labor organizations. organizations um this
Shannon: doing all
Carter: needs to happen now uh because the planning has to happen now because the moves are going to happen in the next i think i think the unions are negotiating these things right now i
Carter: i don't think he has some
Shannon: don't think he has some long-term care workers uh
Shannon: uh in bargaining with ahs and uh you know i saw a thing from the president the other day saying make sure that you you know sign up for your uh union you know identification number or your union uh online account because this is how you'll get your strike pay if we uh end up going on strike so that's where they're at is they're at you know they are in readiness mode hsa has bargaining uh next week as well uh we'll see what happens with them but um i i think that where you'll see this more is at the is at ap because they changed up their president i think the membership is quite restive uh they've been been treated like absolute shit uh these are vast majority of these workers are women uh they are more recently arrived at canadians they make garbage wages and uh uh they you know i i can see where where they are entirely impatient uh with uh the situation as it as it is facing them right now
Carter: uh in
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Zain: so Carter, I think there's a lot of people hearing this who
Zain: are outraged, but have now been told that they're a minority, not a majority. Last
Zain: week, we said they needed to be in the majority, right? Like, I'm just trying to set the stage a bit. So let me just kind of like interject. So you said if the narrative next week is not, holy shit, what do they do versus I want my kids back at school. It's a good sort of litmus test of saying whether you're in the minority or majority. A lot of people are realizing today, especially those listening to this podcast, I imagine that they're outraged, but potentially in the minority of folks. They may disagree or agree, but that's your analysis right now. Yeah, you may you've also kind of laid out a plan of what needs to happen for
Carter: Yeah,
SPEAKER_04: Yeah,
Zain: for central labor and then the ATA.
Zain: And you've also given us your take both of you have on both these things around what the UCP stands to lose and some of their mistakes, but also where they might be quote unquote winning here,
Zain: which kind of brings me to what does civil society and what can they do right now? Well,
Zain: relying on labor doesn't seem to be it. We'll talk about the NDP in a moment. But I wanted to talk about them because there's probably a lot of people listening to this hearing maybe for the first time or kind of snapping into focus for the first time. Something I think both of you may agree that this movement may have peaked given the inputs we have seen right now. At least the movement on Bill 2 at this moment on the wet notwithstanding clause, to be clear. So, Carter, what
Carter: what
Zain: what role
Carter: role
Zain: role
Carter: role
Zain: role
Carter: role
Zain: role do people have right now, those listening to this podcast and others, if it's not going to be the ATA, the AFL, any of these institutions, if it's not going to be, and not to prejudge the NDP, what
Zain: what
Zain: what is their role here right
Zain: right now? Well, I think the civil society
Carter: now? Well, I think the civil society should be doing what they did to Raj and Sani. I think that, you know, the minority, the vocal minority is heard oftentimes by this UCB government because they do listen to the vocal minority. This would just be the opposite side of the vocal minority. I love them going to Sani's town hall and shouting her down, calling for a recall petition.
Carter: Demetrios Nikolaidis has a recall petition against him in Calgary Bow. Go. Sign it. Do what you need to do. I mean, forever Canada, this fucker. I don't give a shit. My prediction is that they'll get more than enough signatures in Calgary. This is the moment of the show
Zain: This is the moment of the show where we play a trailer with heroic music espousing the greatness of Thomas Lukasik. Now, Haxum, can you please just create that song and interject it with Carter's prediction? This is, of course, the Thomas Lukasik celebration segment of the show.
SPEAKER_02: They'll organize to compete. Rodney, even Stephen Carter thinks you'll succeed.
Carter: Carter, we're back to you. I don't think we need that. I don't think we need that. It sucks for you because it just happened.
Zain: think we need that. It sucks for you because it just happened. It
Zain: It just happened.
Carter: It just happened.
Zain: I'm
Carter: I'm just throwing a note there. I think what we need is we need to be realistic here and say that, I mean, obviously, the Calgary Bowl recall petition is going to happen. And, you know, Nicolaides is going to be gone. um but i i i mean i
Carter: don't know if you're fucking around with
Zain: don't know if you're fucking around with us here on that particular one just to be clear of course i am okay why
Carter: of course i am okay why why would i change my mind uh
Carter: uh 60 although 60 of the people who voted is a much much smaller number to get over than some of the earlier recalls not in calgary bow they had a high turnout there but anyway still it's it's easier than 60 of the the voters um you know but it's i mean bow is going to be uh it's going to be tricky it's going to i mean i don't think it's going to happen but uh i'm expert at at uh the predictions on these things um number two
SPEAKER_04: earlier recalls not in
Shannon: in
Carter: call
Carter: everybody go to their town halls i mean it's the same thing it's number one and number two just just make it happen those are my only things i'm done shannon
Carter: shannon what
Zain: what else can people do like carter i appreciate your advice but it's almost like fucking do the stuff you're supposed to do like do it and do it well uh i guess like you don't seem to have a lot of hope interjected behind your voice i guess is what i'm trying to say we
Carter: elect dictatorships right
Carter: right when you're elected to a majority government you get to do whatever the fuck you want to until such time as you have to call another election especially
Shannon: especially when you do this when you introduce a piece of legislation in one day uh that is insulated from judicial review and you pass it it within a few hours you don't have any opportunity then for the public as disconnected as they are uh right now to be able to engage in the material right so like they've cut all of that off and
Carter: especially when
Carter: right so like they've
Carter: and sorry shannon but they you don't hear any internal rumblings oh you know cyril turton's really upset you know he's not he's not he should be he should be furious he should be walking to the premier's office and saying i want to give back the 38 000 that i get for being a minister of the crown you know but he's not going to um you know children's services minister and your teachers are getting screwed right
Carter: right now he's not the education minister these aren't his teachers but the system works hand in hand if
Carter: we don't have education if we don't have proper education we're not putting
Carter: putting out the kids that are going to be able to get survive in today's society i just don't understand where these people are um you know we had two two people who stood on on principle um whose
Carter: whose names are escaping me right now peter
Carter: peter
Shannon: peter guthrie guthrie
Carter: guthrie and steven
Shannon: guthrie and steven
Zain: steven oh you mean the two the two now the pc revival folks the pc
Carter: steven oh you
Shannon: you
Carter: two the
Shannon: the two now the pc
Carter: pc
Carter: the pc revival guys um
Carter: um they
Carter: they stood and all
Shannon: and all
Zain: all
Zain: all of
Carter: of
Zain: of the ndp i don't
Shannon: don't
Carter: don't
Zain: don't think i
Shannon: don't
Carter: don't
Shannon: don't
Carter: don't think
Shannon: think i
Carter: i mean those guys
Zain: i
Shannon: i
Shannon: guys yeah okay they
Carter: they stood on but
Shannon: but the ndp who who's
Carter: but the ndp who
Zain: who
Carter: who's who else is standing on principle is anybody else dead so without without the nd without Without the UCP being the dictatorship they are, with the NDP doing what it's doing,
Carter: right? The NDP. Well,
Carter: okay,
Zain: okay, let's talk about the NDP. Well, you tell me.
Carter: let's
Shannon: let's talk about the NDP.
Zain: You tell me. You say with a disgusting face, for
Zain: those that are not watching this. A
Zain: A
Carter: A disgusting face. Or
Zain: Or disgusted. I mean, the face is disgusting, but the disgusting face is disgusted. Sorry, just to be clear. My God. Judd, the disgusting face that you hold is disgusted. Is that a good sentence? I think that's a proper one. Yeah,
Carter: Or disgusted.
Carter: face is disgusting,
Carter: the disgusting face
Carter: face is disgusted. Sorry, just to
Carter: I think that's a proper one. Yeah, you brought it all together. I mean, people watching the video stream will be all confused. Oh, no,
Zain: watching
Zain: Oh, no,
Zain: no,
Carter: no,
Zain: no, they'll get it.
Zain: They'll get it.
Zain: You don't seem pleased. I'm
Carter: I'm
Zain: not
Carter: not pleased. Why
Zain: Why
Carter: Why not?
Carter: What am I seeing?
Zain: What are you seeing? Tell me what you're seeing. Tell me if you're seeing it algorithmically. Tell me if maybe that's the case. But tell me if you're just not liking the message or not liking the tone or not liking the volume or one of the things you are
Carter: Tell me if you're seeing it algorithmically.
Carter: or not
Carter: one of the things you are liking.
Carter: I'm not seeing I'm not seeing it. I'm
Carter: I'm not. I mean, I see little tidbits of Nancy being outraged. OK. You
SPEAKER_01: You
Carter: know, that's interesting. Where's the you know, you
Carter: couldn't filibuster this piece of legislation.
Carter: Can you try and fuck with them in other ways? Can you where's your house leader? Where's your house leader standing up in the house or making it difficult on them? um you know trying to snap you know trick you know not everybody's in the house all the time well let's put all the fucking ndp members in the house all the time let's make sure that everybody's got house duty for the next three weeks and force the ucp to have every one of their members in the house so that they don't lose their fucking government right
Carter: we're gonna do we're gonna just do some stuff we're just gonna do some stuff i don't see any stuff coming from the ndp i'll
Zain: i'll let you respond i'll let you get into this shannon not particularly respond unless you want to but but carter to be clear you've talked about simply legislatively what are you seeing messaging and communications virtually
Carter: let you respond
Carter: communications virtually nothing messaging i see i'm seeing i mean maybe maybe my tiktok's all filled up with uh four non-blondes singing some song uh from the 1990s with then nikki minaj coming in talking about motherfuckers i don't i don't know i
Carter: i i can't you know maybe it's my tiktok algorithm maybe i'm not seeing it but i'm not seeing it from the ndp
Zain: Yes. Okay. Shannon, I'll let you get into your and I'll put a pin on not seeing it for the NDP because I've got a question for you there, Carter, again. But Shannon, what
Zain: what do you think for the New Democrats? We mentioned what they needed to do. You talked about leader centric, not head focus. But then Carter, you also mentioned spread out the love, have a lot of people kind of address this topic, make it singular. They seem to have taken that particular approach. But Shannon, we're a week in, just slightly less than a week. What do you think? There
Shannon: hasn't been a whole lot on this topic since they passed it, which, except for calling Daniel Smith a coward, which, I mean. That
Zain: I mean.
Zain: That seems to be the line. I've heard a few times. You don't like it? Neither of you seem to like it. No.
Shannon: times.
Carter: times.
Carter: You
Shannon: You
Carter: You don't
Shannon: No.
Carter: No. I'm not in love with it. Tell me why. Daniel Smith is a tyrant. That I can get behind. Daniel Smith is a dictatorial. I can get behind. Danielle Smith is a coward because, what, she went away on an airplane? I
Shannon: why.
Zain: why.
Shannon: Daniel
Zain: Daniel
Shannon: Daniel
Carter: don't follow it.
Carter: I
Shannon: I think that we're better off usually when we're talking about people's priorities and whether they align with the voters or not. I felt like it was a bit too personalized. And I worry about that on the sort of personalizing on it rather than drawing it back to the issue. It makes it to Nahid versus Danielle, which I don't love. I would prefer that
Shannon: that it's Danielle versus the voters and him as an avatar for people's interests. I really think that he's better off there. I think there's, it just, it's a bit of a clangor for me. Otherwise, it's a bit of an eye poker, right? I don't, I think there might be gender things happening there too. I just, I don't know what I don't like about it, but I don't, I am not in love with it. uh i also think that you know uh going to saudi arabia and uae to you know advocate for our oil interests whatever bullshit patina she put on it um that's not really cowardly for a good chunk of the population they think that she's you know doing business for the province which she's not she's just basically uh figuring out how you know she can like uh
Zain: for people's
Zain: really think
Zain: I don't know what
Zain: I don't like
Shannon: uh make
Shannon: make
Shannon: her money on the back end when she leaves politics let's all be clear what she's doing there um but uh so i
Shannon: i i just i didn't love coward i don't think it fits with what actually happened um and that was kind of where the message stopped right
Shannon: uh ledge friday comes on the thursday uh everybody goes back to their writings and they start back in on monday uh and so and i didn't see a lot of sustained i am the worst focus group ever in terms of the algorithm because all of these people are my friends obviously in my uh like so my feeds are not a good not representative of what normal people because i see everything that all the caucus does right and the uh like the individual mlas and the and the others so but
SPEAKER_02: obviously in my uh
Shannon: but
Zain: but i think it's actually helpful to maybe combat carter's sort of like oh if i see it then then it exists i
Shannon: but i think it's actually helpful to
Shannon: carter's
Shannon: i see it all right
Zain: right so i think that's actually quite helpful than normies way
Shannon: right so i think that's actually quite helpful than normies way more um
Shannon: um and i also did not see what is something that the caucus is usually really good at which is everybody doing their the bill just passed here's what this means for you uh kind of a thing right like either the next day like 30 versions of
Zain: next day like 30 versions of a similar message exactly and we we
Shannon: exactly and we we had done that in the past i you know it's one thing that you can do is it everything no but it's just one of those just one of those little you know i put a quarter in the machine sort of things that you do as a caucus um
Shannon: um because they all or many of them anyway have their their own own social media followings. And it's a good way to amplify or stand there with a leader and do it sometimes, right? Like, there's all kinds of different variations on the theme of
Zain: of this thing.
Shannon: And, and fundraising wise, you know, there were a couple of emails. So that's good. But it would seem to me that there's, there's a bit more that could be done to amp up the urgency here.
Shannon: Carter,
Zain: Carter, I'll ask you the same question. And then I'll go back to something Shannon's put on the the table, which I thought was a very fascinating point around the frame of, do the NDP want Nahed versus Danielle as the key sort of question, or do they want the voters versus Danielle? And I don't know, Shannon, if you meant that for this particular question, or if you meant that as perhaps the more overall frame of a referendum versus Danielle. On this particular question.
Shannon: I'll ask you the same
Shannon: versus Danielle. On this particular question. Okay, cool. Okay, so that's helpful to get, but I want to get Carter
Zain: question. Okay, cool. Okay, so that's helpful to get, but I want to get Carter Dwayne on that in a second, though. Carter,
Zain: Carter, same question to you. Window closed for the New Democrats? The same question I asked about the labor or window closing and they can do stuff? And if so, what is the Stephen Carter design campaign for the New Democrats look like for Monday, November 3rd? I
Carter: mean, if there's going to be any wildcard actions from the ATA, then the NDP have to go and stand with them and be with them. If the ATA does what I expect it's going to do, which is just kind of of allow things to to
Carter: boil
SPEAKER_04: boil
Carter: boil
SPEAKER_04: boil
Carter: boil over here and disappear um you know that that's not going to happen um the
Carter: ndp can't fight this fight by themselves the ndp need uh the the catalytic moment and the catalytic moment was 10 you know has passed
SPEAKER_01: and
SPEAKER_04: and the catalytic
SPEAKER_01: catalytic
SPEAKER_01: passed
SPEAKER_01: passed
Carter: passed you know the the we're going to go out on general strike i mean the unions and the ndp the the progressive side of the of the of the of the The zone, if you will, has kind of fucked this up, in my mind. The NDP don't have much going for it. The ATA doesn't have much going for it. I think the next move on the chessboard is to wait for the next action, and hopefully they'll do it better.
SPEAKER_01: passed
Zain: Shannon, Carter also brings up a fascinating point, which is do these folks all need each other, or can they all go on their own to generate enough? Obviously, optimally, labor, ATA more specifically, the subset of labor in this situation, the New Democrats, the GenPOP would all kind of coalesce, and this would all be one big soup sort of thing. But the question I did have at the heart of it was, can the NDP go alone here if ATA and labor and others don't propel
Zain: propel it through? Absolutely. I
Shannon: propel it through? Absolutely. I mean, because they have different interests, right? I mean, the NDP is talking to the gen pop, obviously, to progressives, to parents, to teachers, right? And people who work in education in a broad sense, and people
Zain: I mean, because they have different
Zain: the NDP is
Shannon: people who teach in education faculties, and people who, you
Shannon: you know, there's a broad sort of education community, right? I'm thinking here of my own constituency where there's a big faculty of education. So if this sort of thing was happening, this is the sort of thing that I would be going and talking to them. I would be doing stuff. Right. But, you know, the NDP has a completely different constituency in many ways than Labour. Right. Because Labour is there to get deals for its members. That
SPEAKER_04: here of my
SPEAKER_00: sort
SPEAKER_07: sort of thing was happening,
SPEAKER_00: happening,
SPEAKER_07: happening,
SPEAKER_06: happening,
SPEAKER_07: talking to
Zain: to
Shannon: is that is what they are hired to do. The New Democrats are there to show that they can stand up to the government, that the job that they were hired for in 2023, holding the government to account, is something that they are doing while demonstrating that they can also govern the place and that they have the ideas and the competence and all of those kinds of things. And so they have completely different assignments in that way, and they absolutely should go it alone. Do they make this the centerpiece? I think this is another proof point in we have, you know, an education and health care system that are falling apart because we have government with wrong priorities. And they're off doing whatever they are doing, you know, catering to their extremist base, doing separatism nonsense, whatever. Meanwhile, you are getting a raw deal, you person whose insurance just went up.
Shannon: So that's the NDP's assignment is to use this as another proof point. Has
Zain: Has the assignment changed, Carter, for this week from your advice, which is talk about the teachers and nothing else? Even if you might be admitting that, to your words, the moment is gone or the moment is nearly gone, would you still encourage them, that teachers, teachers, teachers, for the next seven days, or is it time to pivot?
Carter: I think that you can try it for the next seven days, but you've got to watch it carefully, and if it doesn't click, then you've got to pivot.
Carter: Shannon, what do you think?
Shannon: think? And they also have an opportunity to do something on notwithstanding clause, right, like WAB has done. So WAB Canoe has brought in a piece of legislation, Bill 50, that outlaws the, that says that, you know, basically, they have to bring it to the legislature and repeal that legislation if they ever want to use the notwithstanding clause or something, right? Yeah, they've got some sort of, we're going to bring it to some type of judge who's
Carter: think? And they also
Zain: right? Yeah, they've got some sort of, we're going to bring it to some type of judge who's going to tell us if they could use it. And if that, we'll still use it. So that people are poking holes. So, I mean, the New Democrats could bring
Shannon: we'll still
Shannon: people are poking holes. So, I mean, the New Democrats could bring that in as some kind of private members bill. I think they're doing it in Saskatchewan. There's some people who are agitating for the government of British Columbia to bring in similar legislation.
Shannon: So that is something that certainly the New Democrats can and should do. And, you know, chase the UCP MLAs around with it, along with, you know, why didn't you, how are you going to vote on the Forever Canadian question?
SPEAKER_00: question?
Shannon: question? It's just another way to do wedging in the house and
Shannon: and embarrass the UCP to Carter's point about
Shannon: about making the shoes pinch just a little bit for some of these guys.
Zain: Carter, I'm going to ask you the final question here before we move to Over Under and Lightning for a slightly elongated version of it if you guys have a bit of time.
Carter: We do nothing but have time. Oh, fantastic. When you do a nine-minute promo for your live show. We
Zain: Oh, fantastic. When you do a
Zain: We have to have time. We have to have time. I think it was great. It was 10 minutes. Uh, if Shannon summary wasn't there, it'd be nine minutes. So I blame Shannon. Way to
Carter: We have to have time. I think it was great.
Carter: if Shannon
Carter: Way to go, Shannon. Way
Zain: Way to go with that pithy one minute. Take us over the time.
Carter: one minute. Take us over the time. Hey,
Zain: Hey, Carter, uh, Shannon's question, the nod versus Danielle frame. That seems to be kind of what new Democrats, frankly, would, I would even kind of suggest would be the overall frame. I'm not putting Shannon's position saying that this is what the campaign shouldn't be about, but she made a really interesting point on this question where you kind of want it to be the voters versus Danielle. Any, like, I know the campaign's a ways away, but back of napkin, Stephen Carter thoughts Thoughts on how the new Democrats should be even thinking about the broader frame versus Nahed versus Danielle, referendum on Danielle, those sort of things, as they shape up for what could be, you know, many speculating a spring election, and then if not a 27 election of some kind.
Carter: Yeah, I mean, Nahed standing up for me and Danielle standing up for her friends is more of the framing I would go for. So it's not Danielle versus Nahed. It's Nahed's on my side, and Danielle's not.
Shannon: So
Carter: That's the framing that I would aim for. I think there's all kinds of evidence that Danielle Smith is not on your side. And she's not on your side on cost of living. Look at insurance. Look at gas. Look at all the expenses that continue to go up. Running a household in Alberta has never been more expensive. She's not on your side when it comes to education. Look at the teacher strike. Look at the classroom size. She's not on your side when it comes to health care.
Carter: She's not on your side when it comes to post-secondary education.
Carter: She's just not on your side. And Nahid Nenshi is.
Carter: Nahid Nenshi is. And that framing, I think, could work really well. And I think that it could be set up over time rather than unfolded at the last minute. And I think that that's something you have to always think about is, if I do this framing, will it run out of legs? Will it actually work in the timeline that I have articulated?
Zain: We're going to leave that segment there. Moving on to our over, under, and our lightning round. Now, Shannon Phillips, Stephen Carter, there's so many things that we couldn't get into a deep format on. But I want to start with this. And Shannon, let me start with you.
Zain: The political upside, okay, this is going to be a bit of a word style. The political upside on the notwithstanding clause. It has become a hot topic recently, obviously with Alberta. You now see conservative premiers across the country encouraging the feds to use it over the weekend on Friday with a Supreme Court ruling. You know, Doug Ford, Pierre Polyev, Danielle Smith,
Zain: the conservative premiers and frankly, like leadership, if you can call it that.
Zain: Overrated or underrated in terms of the political juice the notwithstanding clause could have in terms of advocating for its usage if you're conservatives and then, you know, trying to what the NDP in Manitoba have done and what Nahid Nenshi has alluded to in Alberta, which is we'll never do it. What progressives are trying to do. What do you kind of make? Overrated or underrated the notwithstanding clause as it relates to being a political football? I
SPEAKER_02: advocating
SPEAKER_01: advocating
SPEAKER_02: advocating
Shannon: think until very recently, it was pretty underrated. But now we've seen that there may just be enough kind of far right rage on any given topic to override the Constitution. And you feel like you're sticking it to the man when you're overriding our fundamental freedoms and taking away the court's ability to make decisions. That's what it feels like to me, is that we're in, you know, we're far past this land of conservatives who, you know, have respect for rule of law and defer to courts or have
Carter: like you're sticking
Shannon: have any respect for our foundational documents or fundamental liberties. And so it feels to them like they're, you know, righting a wrong when
Shannon: when they do this. That Supreme Court decision that prompted the fracas over the weekend is tremendously complicated. I was just looking into it this afternoon.
SPEAKER_00: looking
Carter: looking into it this afternoon. But
Shannon: But it's a pretty easy one to kind of say, oh, well, I'm going to, you know, stick it to the elites and use the notwithstanding clause. And I think there's such inflammatory terms
Zain: think there's such inflammatory terms in it, too. Right. And it's it lends it to that. Carter, what do you think right now as like a political operator and as a strategist, overrated or underrated, the notwithstanding clauses that relates to an issue? And I hate to I hate to slice and dice a core element of like our like liberty and freedoms in that way. But it is being driven on this partisan track right now, which is dangerous in its own right. But
Shannon: And
Zain: But as a practitioner, what do you think, overrated or underrated? Oh,
Carter: boy.
Carter: I
Carter: guess it's underrated, because we didn't anticipate any government grabbing onto it the way that Daniel Smith has. You know, all of a sudden, if you start using the notwithstanding clause in every piece of, you know, in every piece of legislation. And frankly,
Zain: And frankly, we are expecting it again in this session with the trans rights.
Carter: the trans rights.
Carter: who's now saying, I like it. I like what's happening in Alberta.
SPEAKER_04: in Alberta.
Carter: What
Carter: What does it say for the rest of the country? What does it say when progressives don't get the court case that they want? When progressives, you know, there's a ruling that all of a sudden a pipeline can go across British Columbia and the progressive side of the table says, you know what? Let's use the notwithstanding clause. class the notwithstanding class will work in this in this situation i
SPEAKER_04: class the notwithstanding
Carter: mean you're you know the the conservatives are so fucking stupid they only seem to think that things will work on their side right it works on the other side too guys um
Carter: um i'll tell you as many people are pissed off about the notwithstanding class being used against teachers across the country you
Carter: watch when it gets used on a fucking pipeline you morons um and i feel like their strategic calculation
Zain: and i feel like their strategic calculation if i'm giving them a a bit more charity is that they a feel like only their side will use it because b the other side is too weak or meek or principled or morally aligned to the charter to use it then in fact on that very partisan train of thought that is kind of what we are seeing is that you're seeing the left say we're going to abide by the charter we're not going to use it and the right saying if this is a political trap you're falling into it so you know you
Zain: could see what bed they're making carter the the collective right in this country like it's very clear what bed they're trying to make which is we know both sides can use it but only we have the you
Zain: know insert your word of choice here um you know i'd say moral indignity to to use it these
Carter: moral
Carter: these
Carter: things always get turned around right for
Carter: for the we were all drifting towards liberalism do you remember do you remember the early 2000s oh my god everything upward into the right yeah yeah yeah and then all of a sudden And the
Zain: upward into the right yeah yeah yeah and
Carter: tools and techniques and tactics that we were using for the progressive side got taken and bastardized by the right.
Carter: You would not
Zain: You would not be surprised that in 10 years, a more left-leaning government uses a notwithstanding clause to strike down. I'm just making a bunch of assumptions around where we're at as a country. Pick a court
Carter: be surprised
Carter: country. Pick a court issue, something that happens, right? Yeah.
Zain: Yeah.
Carter: An indigenous group is ruled against in opposition to something. Mm
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
Carter: Mm-hmm.
Carter: Right? The notwithstanding clause is then used to support the Indigenous group. I mean, obviously, it's a good use of the notwithstanding clause. It's tough because the
Shannon: It's tough because the notwithstanding clause only applies to, like, essentially what comes down to our individual liberties.
SPEAKER_06: the
Carter: the
Shannon: And essentially, like, your Fundamental Freedoms Expression Association and then, you know, your democratic – it doesn't apply to your democratic rights, but like your security of the person and privacy rights. So I could see it potentially, I mean, I'm just trying to do the mental work to figure out where on the progressive left would you ever use this. Religion is really the only category that I can see where it could come back on, or far-right extremist organizations. It could be used to outlaw them.
Zain: could be used to outlaw them.
Zain: I guess it's using Quebec terminology, sure.
Shannon: I guess it's using Quebec
Shannon: Or on freedom of expression for, like, to override some stuff on what constitutes hate speech. Like, we have a pretty good regime here in Canada, but as we've seen, there's been all kinds of innovations, if you will, on freedom of expression on hate speech. So I could see that, but I'm struggling to find any other instance where it would. But Carter is right that, I mean, progressive governments could decide, you know, if things get super spicy on the right, that, note, we're outlining these groups, these forms of association, these forms of dissemination of information. No, you can't access this. That absolutely could happen.
Zain: Carter, in or out on the Ford ad, and in or out on Carney asking Ford to pull it?
Carter: I'm in on the Ford ad. I am out on Carney pulling it.
Carter: Shannon?
Zain: Shannon?
Zain: Same.
Carter: Same.
Zain: Same. Why?
Zain: Who wants to go first? Chetan, you go first.
Shannon: I just, I mean, I think it became a mountain out of a molehill, A. B, I think that we have to create leverage. And Doug Ford has been the only person in this country, essentially, to create leverage, both with the electricity stuff, and now with this. uh and uh we don't have any or at least we've walked away from a lot of the leverage that we do have uh and um i and i and really what this shows is that there's a lack of coordination between the premiers uh and uh the prime minister and industries of various kinds that's a real huge problem uh for the government of canada i think this shows something larger but in the And in the meantime, we just looked like a bunch of just like real
Shannon: real weaklings with pulling it.
Zain: Carter, anything to add? I
Carter: would just say that if you're going to pull it, if you're going to demand that it get pulled, what are you getting from Trump?
Carter: Because if you're going to do something like that, you better get something.
Zain: if
Zain: Well, yes. And you mean, and from a practitioner perspective, you mean you better get something and communicate what you're getting to the public? Exactly.
Carter: Exactly.
Zain: You
Carter: You know, I got a new round of negotiations started at
Carter: something. That could work.
Carter: But I demanded that we pull the ad, and nothing changed. Fuck
Carter: you. Let's go.
Zain: Same
Shannon: Same
Zain: Same
Shannon: Same as digital
Zain: digital
Shannon: digital services tax, right? They pulled
Carter: digital services
Carter: right? They pulled that. Nothing
Shannon: Nothing happened. My take is very similar
Carter: My
Zain: My take is very similar to you guys, which is I think this has actually opened up an issue for Carney, which is I think there's a good portion of this country still that doesn't give a fuck about where these trade negotiations are because we haven't brought along and would rather just have a moment of catharsis to be like, yeah, fuck you for a second. And even if that costs us, who gives a shit? Like, we haven't been brought along anyways. So, you know, like— Do you remember elbows
Carter: like— Do you remember elbows up?
Zain: What the fuck do we know if that's right? Well, I think there's still a cohort of people who want to be elbows up. We
Carter: We all bought into elbows up.
Carter: For
Zain: For
Carter: For sure. We
Zain: We were up
Carter: up
Zain: up in elbows. And I think there's still a group of people who are like, are we not doing that anymore? And Doug Ford's like, I'm always fucking doing that. And I think there is still an appetite there. Now, it seems like those two can play well together, Ford and Carney, but we'll see for how long.
Zain: Final question. Stephen Carter, we want to do a whole budget thing because we'll wait till the budget comes. There's just a lot of stuff related to the budget. And I think for me, the most interesting thing is, Stephen Carter,
Zain: what are you looking for from this budget, a top line that may or may not signal how Carney does in the weeks and the months ahead? And
Zain: I'm not asking for one metric. It doesn't have to be a metric. It could be a story, a narrative, whatever. But
Carter: I'm not
SPEAKER_04: not asking for one
Zain: Carney's honeymoon season, so to speak, let's just classify right now in my words, not yours so you don't have to agree that he's still in it the budget to me could be the inflection point what are you looking for in said budget big or small that will indicate to you that he's going to continue on this ride or he's going to decelerate into uh orbit once again the
Carter: uh budget is a communications device cory taught us that right cory said this is all about communications well here we go i
Carter: i want to see communicated the 15 cuts and then what was put back in right
Carter: right because Because Kearney has committed a lot of money outside of the 15
Carter: 15% cuts. But that 15% cut that
Carter: that happened
Carter: right off the bat that Kearney directed each of the departments to do, I want to see how that's communicated and how that is disseminated so that we can see the 15% cut and then what was put back in in order
Carter: order to make things actually work. I don't want to see
Carter: just the big numbers. I want to see the cuts and how did those cuts actually get implemented. I'll be looking to see if that storyline continues because that storyline was really important. And I think it's one of the things that's that differentiates the Mark Carney government from the Justin Trudeau government.
Zain: Shannon, same question. I don't
Shannon: I don't think those cuts are going to materialize. I think that's going to be one of the big things. But the thing I'm going to be looking for is the stuff that he does around young people.
Carter: don't
Carter: But the
Shannon: Oh, interesting. i youth unemployment we've got like they made big uh
SPEAKER_07: Oh, interesting.
Shannon: uh promises around apprenticeships skills training all of this stuff some people were critical of you know how he did the speech in front of the u ottawa people and didn't really you know just talked about sacrifice and not talked about young people yeah
SPEAKER_01: yeah um by
Shannon: um by young people i mean i guess i'm getting old now by young people i mean like the 30s and under right like not not
Shannon: not uh not teenagers i'm talking about you know people who who are even in their late 20s, early 30s, who, you know, will never buy a house. But also the job market's gotten really shitty for folks in that cohort. And so there is some talk of things like a youth job guarantee, like the Starmer government is examining, stuff like that.
Shannon: I'm really curious where that goes. Like, we already know in broad strokes that there's going to be just like an orgy of spending on defense and this kind of stuff. Yeah, that's been telegraphed. We're going to call it investment, not spending. demanding uh but uh some of these other things that could actually help
Zain: Yeah, that's been telegraphed. We're going to call it investment, not
Shannon: them through a snap election uh and do shore up uh an important uh demographic for them i'm gonna be curious how far they go or if it's just like boutique programs and you know resurrecting katimovic or whatever that was
Shannon: was a
Carter: a
Shannon: a good
Carter: good
Shannon: good
Carter: good program
Shannon: program
Carter: program
Shannon: program
Carter: program i love
Shannon: love
Carter: love that let's
Shannon: let's
Carter: let's go back
Zain: we are gonna leave it there that's a wrap on on episode 1890 of The Strategist. We will see you live November 12th in Calgary. By the way, if you're not in Calgary,
Zain: thestrategistlive.ca. That can get you a flight on Flair Airlines to Calgary. But before you do that, Carter, thestrategistlive.show.
Zain: That's where they can get their tickets.
Zain: My name is Zane Veltri. With me as always, Stephen Carter, Shannon Phillips, and we shall see you next time.
SPEAKER_04: Zane Veltri.
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