Zain: This is a strategist episode 1877. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Shannon Phillips, Stephen Carter. How are you folks?
Carter: I'm having a great day. I'm
Zain: I'm not
Carter: I'm not gonna lie to you. It's a spectacular day today. Is
Zain: Is it? Is this a spectacular
Carter: a spectacular
Zain: spectacular
Carter: spectacular day?
Zain: day? Shannon, does that same go for you? Oh,
Shannon: does that same
Shannon: yeah. And you know, I had a really great interaction the other day with Tony at Mount Equipment Company, who said that he was enjoying hearing me on The Strategist when I was doing my return. So shout out to Tony.
Shannon: No,
Zain: No, we on the show like to do full first and last names. Does Tony have a last name so we can both address him by last name and dox him? Because that's what we also like to do. Ideally,
Shannon: No, we on the show like to do full first and
Carter: can both
Shannon: both
Carter: both
Carter: what we also like to do.
Carter: Ideally, getting him fired is really what we're aiming for.
Zain: is really what we're aiming for. Yeah. We're after you, Doug Wong.
Carter: We're
Shannon: We're after you,
Shannon: Yeah.
Carter: Yeah.
Shannon: I don't know his last name. I didn't ask. I didn't pry to that level of detail, you guys. You're going to have to go there yourselves. That's unfortunate.
Zain: You're going to have to go there yourselves. That's unfortunate. We've got fans
Shannon: We've got fans everywhere. It's weird, isn't it? How are we now
Zain: It's weird, isn't it? How are we now going to get to the bottom of Tony? Yeah.
Zain: Yeah. What do we know about him? Where did you say it's an equipment company?
Shannon: Yeah. What do we know
Shannon: did you say it's
Zain: Mountain Equipment Co-op. Oh, my heavenly days. Mountain Equipment. What is this? Why? This is, once again, white people things. Oh,
Shannon: Equipment Co-op. Oh, my heavenly days.
Carter: Oh, my God. How do you not know about Mountain Equipment Co-op? It used
Zain: used to be
Carter: be Mountain
Zain: Mountain Equipment Co-op.
Carter: -op. Okay.
Zain: Okay. Now it's the company. This is what threw me off. I heard mountain, I heard equipment, and then I heard company. What happened to co-op? Yeah, because they changed it.
Shannon: happened to co-op? Yeah, because they changed it. It's not a co-op anymore. What?
Zain: It's not a co-op anymore. What?
Shannon: Well, it got bought out. It was this whole thing. So, yeah. Now it's a company. Is this a socialist death note? It's still MEC, you know, but... I do not know
Zain: Now it's a company. Is this a socialist death note? It's still MEC,
Zain: I do not know what's coming. Yeah, it's... I don't like that. It's kind of sad. It is kind of sad. But Tony's
Shannon: what's
Shannon: Yeah, it's... I
Shannon: like that. It's kind of sad. It
Shannon: is kind of sad. But Tony's still there. He's a really good guy. Was Tony there from the co
Zain: Was Tony there from the co-op days, and now he's there in the company days? I don't know. I didn't...
Shannon: days, and
Shannon: there in the company days? I don't know. I didn't... Again, I did not pry as to his employment history. You kind of left things out really
Zain: as to his
Zain: You kind of left things out really limited. We should know more. A former politician.
Carter: We
Shannon: We
Carter: We
Shannon: We should know more. A former politician.
Shannon: Well, look... This small talk really went nowhere.
Zain: Well, look... This small talk really went nowhere.
Shannon: Well, he was really excited about the strategist, so I was happy to talk about that.
Zain: That's fine. Thank you. Thank you for... What
Shannon: Thank you.
Carter: you. Thank you for... What
Carter: What did you say about us? Did you say we were pretty great to work with, or what did you say?
Zain: What did you say
Zain: you say we
Shannon: you say? No, I said I was surprised that anyone was listening to your show. Yeah.
Zain: Yeah. Did you also tell them that we rarely confirm what time we're going to record and expect you to be there? Was that also mentioned? No, we
Shannon: that we rarely confirm what
Shannon: also mentioned? No, we didn't get into that level of detail. Okay. You know, it was funny, though, because I used to joke all the time. People would say to me, oh, people must, you know, like, recognize you. And I was like, no, absolutely not. Outside of Lethbridge, nobody has any idea. Sure. Because nobody knows who ministers are. That is a fantastic arrangement. But the only place where this was not true was the environment minister for the province was anytime I would go to a mountain equipment co-op at the time, people would come up to me and want to talk to me about the environment. And it happened again, even 10 years post-ministerial life. So there you go.
Zain: Okay.
Zain: You
Zain: any idea. Sure.
Carter: people would come
Zain: life.
Shannon: The climbers and the mountain bikers and the people interested in the outdoors are still interested in the outdoors. That's
Carter: That's right. The mountain bikers. Huh, Zane? Huh? Carter, I'm going to ask you
Zain: I'm going to ask you for a second, because I think we've got a scandal brewing that I need Shannon's opining opinion first, which
Shannon: you
Carter: first,
Zain: which is one young Corey Hogan, formerly of this podcast, now member of Parliament for Calgary Confederation. Shannon, you're familiar with this young gent. Carter, you're, of course, familiar with this young gent. He was on our most recent episode of Ministry of Podcasts. He is refusing to wear cowboy boots, Shannon, this stampede. There is pictorial evidence of this, and I'm going to call him out. But actually, before I call him out, I want to actually get your confirmation that I'm right in calling him out for not wearing cowboy boots, Shannon. You
Shannon: You are absolutely not right. They are high heels for men. They are extremely uncomfortable. I would usually wear them on the first day because I'm not a high heels gal myself. I'm a cowboy boots gal. Normally, all you Calgary people are not wearing them in your daily life, so they're not broken in. It's part of the costume.
Carter: would usually wear them on
Carter: first day because I'm not a
Carter: myself. I'm a cowboy
Carter: they're not broken in.
Carter: part of the costume. It's
Shannon: It's part of the costume. That's the whole point. The whole costume part of Stampede is silly and ridiculous. So while I enjoy them as an element of, you know, sort of like men having to know what it's like to wear uncomfortable footwear, I don't really wish it on a nice man such as Corey. And you can still pull off your cosplay without your high heels. This is insane.
Carter: whole point.
Zain: And you can still pull off
Zain: without your high heels. This is insane. I don't know. From a former elected official?
Carter: insane.
Shannon: insane.
Carter: insane.
Carter: don't know. From a former elected official?
Zain: Jesus Christ, Carter. I think emphasis on former.
Carter: Jesus Christ,
Shannon: I
Carter: I think emphasis on former. yeah i think holy
Zain: yeah i think
Zain: we'll just let people assume by choice but may not be who may not have
Carter: we'll just let people assume
Carter: may not have been i mean could she have gotten elected again with that stance i don't
Zain: that stance i don't think so i
Carter: i don't if this had been public information there's no way in the province of alberta carter
Zain: carter are you going to help me call out cory hogan on this oh
Carter: oh absolutely now he mentioned he would do
Zain: now he mentioned he would do this on the pod but i thought he was fucking around because this is like a is it third rail or fourth rail that he's uh attaching here. This
Carter: This is the fourth rail. Fifth rail. Let's
Zain: rail. Fifth rail. Let's go with fifth rail. Fifth rail
Carter: Fifth rail of Canadian politics.
Zain: politics. Right after,
Carter: politics. Right
Carter: after, you know, I mean, he's not even wearing a hat
Carter: the times I've seen him. You
Shannon: times I've seen him. You have to actually, like, mail it in on some level. You don't have to wear the high heels, but you should actually have a hat or a good shirt. A good belt buckle would make up for it. He has a good belt buckle.
Carter: up for it. He has a good belt buckle. He does
Zain: does have a good belt
Shannon: have a good belt buckle. If you've got a nice dinner plate happening, then I think you're good. Okay, so here's what I'm suggesting.
Carter: belt buckle.
Zain: buckle. If
Zain: a nice dinner
Zain: Okay, so here's what I'm suggesting. Shannon's a softie for this shit, but we're going to get more pictorial evidence of one Corey Hogan and his stampede outfit as the days go by. He's hosting his own breakfast on Sunday. Carter, let's reassemble on this point, and let's just do a check-in on how this guy is doing by, let's say, next episode. Sounds good. Because I think his high watermark has already been reached, and it's only going to get sloppier from here.
Shannon: going to get more pictorial evidence
Shannon: Sounds good. Because
Carter: No, I mean, already, I'm not sure he's going to get reelected. I mean, big question marks.
Zain: I mean, big question marks. Fuck, I don't know if he can. I am happy to fashion
Shannon: I am happy to fashion police the whole thing, but I just don't think you have to wear high heels. Oh, my God,
Zain: Oh, my God, Shannon, you're so...
Zain: Carter, last time we talked, you were not aware who Zoran Mamdani was. Are you now Zoran-pilled?
Carter: Are you now Zoran
Carter: I am because I've actually done an article on it comparing... This is
Shannon: comparing... This
Zain: This
Shannon: This
Zain: This
Shannon: is why I'm asking.
Carter: asking.
Shannon: You
Zain: You
Carter: You
Zain: You had no fucking
Carter: You had no fucking
Zain: fucking clue who this guy was. And then you gave a post-media interview about how he's exactly like Nenshi.
Carter: In fairness, that was the columnist premise. I know it was. And all I did was give examples of how Nenshi behaved, and then he drew the connections. I didn't have to. But I did. I think I built up Nenshi. I mean, I think I made Nenshi seem pretty good to show up in the national newspaper. Not the real one, but the secondary one.
Zain: Shannon, are we right to be Zoran-pilled with what's happening with his campaign and that outcome and that surprise victory? And before you answer, let me just show you some visual evidence of what I have here, which is a child
Zain: child-size Hot Boys for Zoran shirt, which can be seen on my son at Pancake Breakfast near you.
Shannon: child-size
Shannon: Yeah, with no cowboy boots. Now, look, I
Shannon: I think we are right on a couple of different levels. Number one, he captured attention. Number two, he's got all the right aesthetics, right? And his social media reflects how people want to consume information these days. Number three, you don't have to copy, you know, the policy offers, but you do have to have something that speaks to people. And they need to be somewhat substantive. He did that as well. And he's also handled, I think, the attacks on him, which are only going to get worse and more completely banana pants, like the nonsense that showed up in the New York Times yesterday. I think he's pushed them back in an effective way.
Carter: I think
Shannon: Like the woman, Sarah, I can't remember her last name, who was the first trans legislator out of Delaware.
Carter: Same
Shannon: Same sort of idea on how to, you know, use your superpowers to jujitsu the bad guys coming at you.
Shannon: He's done a good job of that. I
Zain: I like that. Carter, any final thoughts on Zoran Mamdani, the guy that you were following from the beginning before we move it on? Yeah,
Carter: Yeah, I mean, it was very evident that I was actually, from the nascent elements of his campaign, very involved. Very involved. So I'm happy that I've been able to offer some really insightful commentary.
Shannon: very
Zain: very involved.
Zain: Very
Zain: No, thank you, Carter. I appreciate that. Let's move it on to our first and our only segment for this show, Fine, Fabulous, or Fucked? Alberta Edition. Shannon, are you familiar with the premise of this segment? Have you ever listened to the show? Do you know what we're about to do? I
Carter: thank you,
Shannon: you, Carter.
Shannon: actually don't know the premise of this particular thing, but I reject the premise.
Zain: Okay, well, fantastic. Thank you. It's not possible. Here's what we're going to do. I am going to run you through a series because it's been a while since we've chatted. There's a series of things that have happened in Alberta. We've had by-elections come and go. I kind of faintly recall you guys gave some predictions for by-elections. Oh, how'd we do? I don't know. We'll talk about that in a second. We've had the resurgence, perhaps, of the Progressive Conservative Party. We've had the Alberta Next panel. We now have a sovereignty referendum question, kind of. We'll talk about that. We also have our first chief
Carter: We also have
Zain: of the new independent agency police service.
Shannon: Talk
Zain: Talk about all those things. And I will ask you, and I'll give you the story, which I kind of teased, and then I'll ask you for a particular character, political party, individual, is this fine? Is this fabulous? Or is this fucked? And Shannon, as I always say, there's no better way to get started than to get started. And let's start with this. Let's start with the by-election results. results three provincial by-elections are now concluding including the high-profile alberta ndp leader naid nenshi he's now in edmonton strathcona 82 percent of the vote check the ndpl also uh held on to edmonton ellerslie though with a reduced margin and the ucp retain old disbury three hills amid a split opposition that including strong showing from the alberta republican party although i will say not that strong 20 to 30 percent showing carter that you and i had speculated about when we chatted last time so shannon the character and let's just make Look at the Alberta NDP.
Carter: we chatted
Zain: They win two, they lose one.
Zain: Fine, fabulous or fucked as it relates to the by-election outcomes for the Alberta NDP? I
Shannon: think it's fine. I mean, it doesn't quite cross over the threshold into fabulous, but it is fine. And what it tells you is that through a change of leadership, through all of these, you know, different, you know, changes in the Alberta political landscape that the New Democrats are fine in
Shannon: in Edmonton, at least right now. Yeah.
Shannon: And that showed you that, you know, when the organization and the ground game gets turned up in a place like Ellerslie, where, you know, let's all be honest, not a whole lot had been going on there since, well, forever. And so I mean,
Shannon: mean,
Carter: mean, not intended to be a direct criticism of your colleague, Rod.
Shannon: There wasn't a whole lot going on there. uh and so we uh
Zain: we uh we gave you the off-ramp we're like oh she probably means in terms of community vibrancy or just that it was just a cookie cutter neighborhood it's a very very
Shannon: probably means in terms of community
Shannon: neighborhood it's a very very uh vibrant place and there's a lot going on a lot going on there
Zain: there's a lot going on a lot going on there okay in
Shannon: in
Shannon: in uh uh in millwoods and elsewhere but let's face it you know the uh the organized organizationally it wasn't exactly you know uh uh uh tight in in in Ellerslie prior, but it showed that the New Democrats, when they activate that ground game, there it is. And it's, they were able to deliver, they were able
Shannon: able
Shannon: able to, you know, like push back on a lot of the naysaying. And, you know, frankly, I was a little nervous. I said on this podcast, I don't know if they're five points down or five points up, and you can't tell. And they just had a federal election exercise where the Conservatives did very well. And in the same kind of neighborhood So he was expected to do really well, and he didn't. So there were reasons to be a bit titchy there. And it was fine, right? The reduced margin, I think, is fine. It's a by-election. It's fine. And the same margin in Edmonton-Strathcona is also fine. fine. In other words, when the electorate was introduced to Nahed in Edmonton, when people switched on to the fact that there was a by-election, because most people are normal, and they didn't probably
Zain: podcast, I don't know
Carter: know
Zain: know if
Zain: down
Carter: down
Zain: down or five
Carter: So there were reasons
Shannon: probably realize that the official opposition leader didn't have a seat yet and all these other machinations, right? They're not us.
Shannon: When they switched on, they were like, oh, yes, of course. And they went and did the thing. So everything is fine. As for Old Stittsbury, I also think that that is an indication of fine for the Alberta NDP, because essentially what the points they put on the board were the same points they put in
Shannon: the 2023, where there was a decent growth in the outside of Edmonton and Calgary ridings. It's not enough, obviously, to be anything near a threat, but reasonable and reasonable to, you know, buoy the base to maybe find yourself candidates and activated folks in school board elections or support, you know, really active women in municipal elections, this kind of stuff, right? This is the kind of thing that the party wants to put out there and do, and it accomplished. So, fine. I don't know what fabulous would be in this context. right like i don't know maybe a an overwhelming landslide in ellerslie which is probably not going to happen in a some kind of suburban riding or
Shannon: or um really tamping down that separatist vote and eating more into the the ucp and olds but like also
Zain: also it's
Shannon: also it's a june by election like what are you going to do so uh
Shannon: uh no it's great
Zain: carter shannon's going with the the package is fine for her for the alberta ndp fine fabulous or fuck for stephen carter what are you choosing I
Carter: alberta ndp
Shannon: fabulous
Carter: fabulous or
Carter: I mean, Shannon's just being weak. This is fabulous for the NDP. The NDP were rumored to be losing Ellerslie. They did not lose Ellerslie. They came in second in Old Stittsbury Three Hills. I mean, that is an achievement when the Alberta Republicans were rumored to be doing exceptionally well. um so
Carter: overall i mean and and then she won his seat uh and gets to go in this is a fabulous showing for the ndp this it doesn't get any better than this and and there was a rumor of a uh potential you know fall election provincially that i think has gone away because things have gone so well for the ndp in in these elections i i was uh very impressed with how it all ultimately turned out not necessarily how the process necessarily unfolded but the outcome if we're just looking at my
Zain: if we're just looking at my process here just right just so i would have liked
Carter: would have liked to have seen this been a more of a province-wide style of by-elections right where the ndp tried to make themselves more seen and heard province-wide with i think that they have a province-wide problem um so but if we're just going with the outcome it's fabulous and shannon's wrong when she says that it's just Well,
Zain: right where the
Zain: with i think that they have
Shannon: I'll tell you who's wrong. It was Carter in the last episode when he was predicting, you know, like, oh, it could be doom in Ellerslie. And like, people
Shannon: people who don't know what they're talking about were predicting that because that would have meant a 24 point drop for the New Democrats in Edmonton. And even in polling where we've
Carter: even in polling where
Carter: we've seen them drop a few points here and there, it's
Shannon: it's not a 24 point drop. So this was just people grafting something else, some other narrative onto what was likely going to happen in Edmonton. By the way, before you speak,
Zain: By the way, before you speak, I just want to say I appreciate this accountability, and I welcome Shannon to bring it any time.
Carter: welcome
Carter: Could be.
Carter: be. Could
Carter: be in trouble. That's what I said. Could be. Oh, I don't know if you said that. I
Zain: I don't know if you said that. I don't know if you said that. Horse feathers. You know what sucks? That we don't have a producer that could probably pull the clip, and if it doesn't align with what Shannon and I want it to be, edit it out. It
Carter: said that. Horse feathers. You know what sucks? That we don't have a producer
Zain: It sucks that we don't have that. It sucks that we don't have that. It sucks.
Carter: that we don't have that. It sucks that we don't have that. It sucks. Yeah. The Alberta New Democratic Party will lose Stellars Lee. That is a prediction. Okay.
Zain: Can I quickly ask you? Shannon, let me start with you. For
Zain: For the Alberta Republican Party,
Zain: I'm going to pull the number, 18%, 17.6-something percent.
Zain: Fine, fabulous, or fucked for them in the old Didsbury Three Hills. If they're on their rampage to do whatever their eventual
Zain: goal is, what do you make of what they did? I think they're
Shannon: think they're kind of fucked. If they can't organize there, in the hotbed of this sort of separatist activity, not for the last five years, but quite literally for the last almost 50, right? When was that Western Canada concept guy elected in a by-election in the early 80s? Yeah. So, you know, if you can't pull it off there, then you are not pulling it off.
Zain: If
Carter: -election in the early 80s?
Carter: Yeah. So,
Shannon: When all of your so-called organizational resources that we were all supposed to be quaking in our cowboy boots about is not there. There was no there there. And by all accounts, you know, these guys are all, you know, backstabbing and fighting with each other and, you know, relitigating whatever conspiracy theory du jour. So, no, I think they're probably fucked. But they might not be fucked for long. It really depends on how they can raise money and, you know, sort of steal the consciousness. You're not saying fucked
Zain: you know, sort of steal the consciousness. You're not saying fucked forever. You're saying for this outcome. Carter,
Shannon: saying for this
Zain: Carter, you know one person who was not shaking in his cowboy boots at the organizational strength? Corey Hogan. Corey Hogan. It was one Corey Hogan. Carter, are you also
Carter: Hogan.
Shannon: Hogan.
Carter: Hogan.
Carter: Hogan. It was one
Shannon: one Corey
Shannon: Hogan.
Carter: Carter, are you also going with fucked on this? Absolutely going with fucked. I'm not going with kinda. This is an absolute bad outcome for the Republicans. They put forward a strong candidate. They were well organized. When I was driving on Highway 2, we certainly saw more signs for the Alberta Republicans than you saw for any other party. And yet they got beaten by the NDP, beaten by the UCP. This is an absolute fuck in a place where this would be the high watermark in Alberta for separatist sentiment, and they just weren't able to pull it off. And it bodes well for the idea of a referendum question. Can
Zain: I'm
Zain: I take a quick detour? And I wish I had the polling in front of me, but I'm going to go off what I've been hearing, which is the openness to separation number has been steadily increasing. Have the two of you also heard this? I'm hearing that it's now between the 30 and 40% mark. So I'm trying to understand the reconciliation of 30% to 40% openness with a sub-20% sort of result in what should be the high watermark historically has been a seat that this broader sentiment has won in the 80s.
Carter: 80s.
Zain: Reconcile
Carter: Reconcile
Zain: Reconcile
Carter: Reconcile
Zain: Reconcile
Carter: Reconcile that
Zain: that
Carter: that for me.
Zain: me. Like, does the average of those two is where we land with the referendum? Or am I overly simplifying the math here and projecting something that's not real? You're
Carter: You're assuming that everybody who is a separatist doesn't see, you know, only sees themselves in the Alberta Republican Party. I think a large number of separatists see themselves in the UCP. Right.
Zain: I think a
Zain: Right. Within the actual home of it. Right. Right. Right. Shannon, any thoughts here? I
Carter: Right.
Shannon: would want to see how the question is asked and who's asking it, because honestly, like some of this is in the framing of it, whether how people are going to respond to it. I do think a lot of people still think of it as a threat or as a leverage point into Carter's point. Then they're going to find their their champion in Daniel Smith and they're going to park it there. So there's two caveats there. The only thing I will note is on the socials, you do see a lot of AI-generated content. If you go into those right-wing spaces, there's a ton of
Shannon: of separatist content, right? And so there's money behind it. If it actually becomes organized money, I become a little bit more
Carter: And so
Shannon: more concerned. I'm not particularly right now.
Shannon: and because they also don't have one one
Shannon: question or one grievance really they're kind of all over the place right like and people who went to the town halls that the candidate cam davies had for the republican party in that by-election you know most of it was people you know being cranky about covid five years hence and
Shannon: and so there's still a lot of that garbage there and as long as they're stuck in the mud there and not just putting forward one coherent this is the thing that i want and Danielle won't get me. And that's why we have to separate.
Shannon: I think it gets sort of mired in, you know, the sort of David Parker, weird world of, you know, people doing
Shannon: doing turf wars and worried about the World Economic Forum and all that.
Zain: Carter, I'm moving on.
Zain: Okay, character. It's the UCP. And Danielle's in the situation. The issue, the
Shannon: Okay, character.
Carter: The
Shannon: The
Carter: The issue, the
Zain: issue is the resurgence of the Progressive Conservative Party. UCP MLA's former Peter Guthrie, Scott Sinclair, both ejected from the caucus, are criticizing Smith's leadership, have historically. They're now planning to revive the Progressive Conservative Party.
Zain: Their move aims to offer an alternative to what they describe as a divisive two-party system, challenge the UCP from the center-right. That's what they say. So, which is why I position the character as being the UCP. Is this fine for the UCP? Is this Is fabulous or are they fucked? Assuming these guys are successful in any three of these scenarios. Fine, fabulous or fucked? The resurgent PCs under these two gents. I
Carter: I think the UCP is fine. It's not fabulous for them. You know, getting pressured from both the far right with the Republicans and from the center right from
Carter: from a progressive conservative party could be very,
Carter: very, very problematic. I mean, ultimately, that's how the NDP would be able to get the number of votes that are required to win an election.
Shannon: But
Carter: But
Carter: But this is an imaginary
Carter: imaginary threat at this stage. That's why it's fine. You would have to have me imagine that this is actually successful. Can
Zain: You
Shannon: You
Shannon: You would
Zain: Can you go down that rabbit hole for a second? I'll let both of you do so. Talk to me about the likelihood of success in your mind in terms of revival. We're talking everything from party name to effectively being a destination for some of those disaffected. I
Carter: Can you
Carter: I think if they'd been able to grab two NDP MLAs and two more UCP MLAs and put them all together into one thing and had a fairly substantive caucus, you know,
Zain: caucus, you know,
Carter: know, then I think that they would have had a chance. I think that two people, it's just too easy to dismiss. I mean, the exception in the room, of course, is the NDP when they were down to two members in Brian and Rachel. that they were able to be a successful party, but they've had history. And one could argue that the progressive conservatives have history, but it's 10 years ago. And I'm not sure that they have the strength to come back and actually be a growing concern. I hope that they can. I hope they can. I think that a middle is very important, but I think it might be more of a threat to the NDP than it would be to the— We'll talk about that. We'll
Zain: would be to the— We'll talk about that. We'll talk about that in a second, because I want to ask both of you that question. But Shannon, I'll give you the same shake. Fine, fabulous or fucked for the UCP. Let's start with them. If these guys are successful in starting up a progressive conservative party, what is it for the UCP? Well,
Shannon: I think, first of all, it's fine because they need a ruling from Elections Alberta. And the legislation was written that people couldn't use the names of the legacy parties to avoid confusion, as Daniela put it in her press conference. But yeah, they explicitly did that, that nobody could resurrect those party names. And it's in our elections legislation. So best of luck to them on that. Number two, you know, if they wanted to get official party status, I don't think they're going to get that out of the UCP without two more.
Shannon: It is smart for them as those two independents, though, to have a party name associated with them. I just don't think it's going to be PCAA. Well,
Zain: let me ask a question about the NDP. Who gets fucked more with if this thing is successful, the UCP or the NDP? Shannon, I'll go with you first.
Shannon: I think it's the NDP, probably on balance.
Zain: on balance.
Shannon: Well, take 2019 when you had a united right, but you had the Alberta party that I can't remember what their province-wide tally was, but I know what they put up on the board in Lethbridge West. It was nine points.
Zain: but
Zain: Right. So this is about like the NDP as like the simple plain alternative for anyone disaffected. Correct. I won
Shannon: Right. So this is about like the NDP
Shannon: disaffected. Correct. I won by 226 votes in that election. Fast forward to 2023, and I'm standing on people's doorsteps and they go, I've always been a conservative, but I cannot vote for Danielle Smith for X, Y, and Z reasons. So I'm going with you this time. I used to be on, you know, the guy that you beats rotting association or whatever. And I left the PCs and I parked it with the UCP for a couple of turns here. And now I'm out. Right? um it does give a release valve for those middle of the road voters that are the accessible voter pool in calgary in
Zain: in particular
Shannon: particular uh and so if there is an off-ramp i mean the good news is is that uh i think nenshi can can occupy more of that lane maybe than than uh notley could have just because of her historic ties to that you know a really orange brand yep
Zain: uh and
Zain: yep however uh
Shannon: yep however uh i still think I don't think that it gives enough people to go, oh, I'm allergic to the alphabet. I couldn't possibly vote for the NDP, but I'm going to go back to a conservative alternative if they get any wind in their sails.
Carter: they get any
Zain: any
Shannon: But yeah,
Shannon: we'll see.
Zain: Carter, do you land in the same spot? Who does this have more of a destructive potential impact to, NDP or UCP? Are you choosing the NDP on this? Well,
Carter: Well, I think so. I think one could go back to 2015 and say, well, ultimately the NDP won because there was two parties on the right that split the quote unquote right vote. But we know that vote split's not a real thing, that everybody starts from zero and they have to work their way up. And I think that the party that would be most likely still to form a majority government or even a minority government would be the UCP over the NDP. So I do think that this hurts the NDP more.
Zain: think one could
Carter: In the long run, there's a lot of water under the bridge. And I don't think that everybody who votes NDP is naturally an NDP voter. Whereas I do think that most of the people who are voting for the UCP at this stage are naturally a UCP voter. Right.
Zain: Right. So this is to that earlier point about the simple sort of alternative. So, OK, in that sense, let
Zain: me ask a very like plain strategy question to the two of you. Should the UCP not want this? Should
Zain: the UCP not like, you know, I know you're saying on balance, both of you, and you're both hedging a bit like in your language. But if you're the UCP, Carter, should you not just want this? Like it's another factor that the NDP have to deal with, especially as Shannon says, potentially in Calgary. I
Carter: mean, if I were the UCP, I think it would be fine. I think it would be great to talk about the Liberals and call the PCs the Liberals, you know, the middle-of-the-road centrist party and equate them to the Liberals. But the UCP seems to want to have its cake and eat it too. They want to be the, you
Carter: know, the rumor of an election. They've got a majority government. They
Carter: They don't need an election to continue to govern. But they just want to have more. They want to have more power, more ability to do things, more structure. And that means eliminating democratic opportunities. Shannon,
Zain: same question to you. Should the UCP not be pushing for this in some way? Like, if they come to the same conclusion the two of you have, which is on balance is less helpful to the NDP than themselves, why would they not push for this?
Shannon: I don't think they need to. I don't think it's going to amount to anything anyway. The fact of the matter is, is that the use of the name is probably dead in the water. Non-starter. And and the two MLAs that are, you know, kind of founding it are not exactly setting the world on fire. Right. I mean, they're fine, but they're not fabulous. So in my view, you know, like they're they're just fine. And their reasons for leaving were extremely disparate and not really grounded in, you know, anything particularly ideological. I mean, Scott Sinclair was like, I didn't get money for my highway, right? Like, I'm out. Can't support this budget. Like, it was a bit silly. And for Guthrie, I think it was a bit more substantive. But I mean, there's no policy
Zain: to anything anyway.
Carter: anyway.
Zain: water. Non-starter. And and
Zain: I mean,
Shannon: policy differences on, you know, like austerity versus, you know, robust health and public education system for him. You know, there's not those big differences. So in the absence of some compelling leader figure, I think it's not really going anywhere and the UCP don't have to concern themselves with it. And
Zain: we're going to move on, Chad. I'm going to stick with you on this. The character, let's go stick with Daniel Smith of the UCP on this.
Zain: The Alberta Next panel.
Zain: As a piece of political strategies, this fine, fabulous, or fucked, and to fill in the gaps for those that don't know about this, this is a new panel that the Premier will chair, tasked for gathering public input, developing recommendations on how Alberta constricted its position within Canada, and then study questions like the Alberta pension plan, transitioning from the RCMP to provincial police force, constitutional changes to the Senate and House of Commons, comments, federal transfer payments, equalization, immigration reforms to give Alberta more control, stuff that we've all heard about now put back into a panel chaired by the premier and having some credible names that we have heard across our province, Adam Legge, Trevor Toome, just naming two, not picking on two, just naming two folks that I think folks listening might be familiar with, that will be part of this panel. So as an act of political strategy on the premier's part. That's the frame I'm looking at. Is this fine? Is this fabulous? Or is this fucked?
Shannon: It's fabulous. This allows her to, you know, get out there, talk to people, really take the temperature on the ground of how much separatist sort of fervor is gripping the landscape out in the hills. She is able to, you know, just do retail politics, which she's quite good at.
Shannon: And they can decide what they're going to do with it all in an offer to the electorate and if they have to do anything all of this is just zombie file after zombie file what wasn't contained in the initial offerings of the reform party uh back in the 1980s i i was contained within you know the various panels and other study exercises that have been undertaken by ralph klein onward um
Carter: what wasn't
Shannon: um and things that have been serially rejected by albertan's police service service uh cpp that kind of stuff um so i i think it's smart of her to do it because they can do their you know have a little a la carte menu of the things that they actually want to do if anything at the end and she's been able to rope in a couple of credible people uh and uh stick this on make them wear some of this right which is uh maybe unfortunate for them but uh they're being well used by her yeah
Zain: i want to i want to talk about that part in in a second um carter and shannon's also alluded to this other element which i did not mention for the audience which is that they they have to submit recommendations by the end of the year and these may inform the referendum questions plural that the province white vote will will will more than likely happen in 2026 carter as an act of political strategy on behalf of the premier fine fabulous or fucked i
Carter: i think it's fucked because it gives everybody the opportunity to rally around and rally opposition to uh the premier this is a number of unpopular ideas that have been around since the 1990s as chan has indicated zombie files i love zombie files uh this is these are not winners um you know some of them might be necessary i mean at some point we may have a requirement to do a provincial police force in lieu of the rcmp because the rcmp may choose to give up community policing That would be interesting. That is not the case today. That is an imagined future that no one has indicated. And there would be a one would imagine a fairly long lead time on something like that. But these aren't winners. These are losing ideas that she just continues to press. And at some point, the expectation is that she's going to be able to get the right answer. But generally, people aren't changing their minds on these issues. But can I interrupt
Zain: indicated zombie files i love zombie files
Zain: But can I interrupt you for one second on this? Well, you just did. Okay. So here's a premise that may not – I actually personally don't believe holds, but I am curious to explore for a second. Can you put a bunch of individual pieces of shit together, put them in a different – in a singular package and have the package be more popular than the individual pieces of crap, the zombie files, right? No. These are losers. You're
Carter: No. These
Carter: You're asking equalization to do a tremendous lift in that case. I mean, we already have had the we've already had the panel on equalization. One will remember that Stephen Harper was the one who brought in the current formula. Oh,
Carter: Stephen Harper, the renowned separatist. But this is this is the the challenges of the of the file is that you can't take you can't make something that is bigger than the hole in this particular case. And that's why I think that's she's absolutely fucked. she's trying too hard to force people into her positioning and ultimately it's going to be there's going to be a rebound effect i'm hoping that we get multiple questions but maybe the only way this
Zain: but maybe the only way this is my question she she does this she puts this out she gets to tour the province i kind of see where shannon's coming from right she like yeah shannon's just wrong
Carter: to tour the province
Carter: yeah shannon's just wrong she's just wrong she's
Carter: she's just wrong the
Zain: premier gets to do all the shit and you're saying oh no it's not that that's what what matters you're gonna go and shovel shit
Carter: premier gets to do all the shit and
Carter: you're gonna go and shovel shit in all these different cities you're gonna you're not shoveling shit on any of these topics
Shannon: gonna you're not shoveling shit on any of these topics in okotoks alberta it's gonna go just fine well i wonder is there is there
Carter: gonna go just
Carter: well i wonder is there is there an actual election in okotoks ever no one it's all ucp in okotoks but the wind in the sails of the separatists is coming from those places oh yeah we just saw old didsbury three hills and they they couldn't beat the end fucking dp the ndp for god's sake in rural alberta they couldn't beat the ndp i mean this is fucked fucked they tell you and shannon trying to turn it into like oh it's a nice little thing i mean fuck you shannon jesus christ i haven't
Shannon: it's all ucp in okotoks
Shannon: but the wind in the sails of the separatists is coming from those places oh
Carter: done that yet i've been waiting to to really hit you with something i think it was prescripted
Zain: really
Shannon: really hit you with something i think it was prescripted yeah
Zain: prescripted
Zain: yeah i think you the cowboy boots your position on it has really really upset me really
Carter: upset me really
Zain: really upset
Carter: upset me
Zain: me this opens up the question of what do we think her goal here is can we talk about her strategic goal because i think shannon's given me in her answer a good explanation of it which is to to kind of go out there and create the narrative shannon tell me if i'm putting words in your mouth right that there is a big separatism crisis and come back to the electorate and say we got to deal with this like that's the kind of like my findings have concluded the following it's almost like the responses to each one of these shitty policies is is is is the b track the a track is i've been out there all summer and there's a crisis out in our communities and i think there's that for sure because
Shannon: i think there's that for sure because she loves that right she's been talking about oh it's it's as bad as i've ever seen it she's trying to change her
Zain: it she's trying to change her position on it so to speak like she's allowing this to happen and also like donning the canada flag sure
Shannon: sure but what she's what she's doing is she's both taking the temperature she's uh you know kind of getting out there and going okay here's what the temperature is but she's also playing around with the thermostat she's
Shannon: she's doing both um
Carter: she's doing both um
Shannon: um and and it allows her to use public money to do that and also make her caucus happy because there's caucus out there in the hinterland who are probably getting an earful on this stuff so you know when the premier comes she hears people out uh it allows them a bit of an arrow to the balloon as well because some of this is caucus management that's what the coal town hall for her was as well right when the premier shows up and and uh you know either accepts the criticism or pushes back on it or or uh uh you know hears people out it's uh it's received well by local mmis put it that way so she's doing that but she also there was some polling it was it was done by janet brown and it was leaked out by
Carter: it
Shannon: by the government was exclusive to the government of alberta uh and And it was a couple of months ago. And it essentially showed a turning up of the dial, even on the zombie files that are otherwise quite unpopular, like CPP. Even Alberta Police Service was the only one that didn't have sort of like into majority territory. And so what she's doing is going out to A, seeing if that is real or if she can make it more real.
Zain: And
Shannon: And there was a series of questions, equalization, all those zombies, right? And they were they did this. So they've used our public money to do some of that temperature taking. And now she wants to go out and play with the thermostat. And if she, you know, gets another kick at the can to, you know, use this to further grievances with Ottawa, all the better, but not necessary right now. That'll come later.
Shannon: She's changed my whole
Carter: She's changed my whole
Zain: whole position. I'm sure she has. Shannon is flipping me right around. The man has never changed his mind.
Shannon: whole position.
Carter: position.
Carter: I'm
Carter: Shannon is flipping me right around. The man has never changed his
Carter: Oh, this is, I've changed my mind. Shannon just totally won me over there. Way to go, Shannon. That's some of your best work. Some of your best work. Some of your best reasoning.
Zain: Some of your best reasoning. What is the premier trying to do, Carter? What do you think her core objectives are? I think that the phrasing that she's trying to- And I don't want to forget, by the way, about the people she's brought into the mix. I'm not going to forget about that, but yes. Well,
Carter: her core objectives are? I think that the phrasing that she's trying to- And I don't want to forget, by
Carter: Well, this idea that she's playing with the thermostat once she's taken the temperature, this is the playing with the thermostat part. And that's the part I can really get behind with Shannon. She is trying to turn up the temperature. She is trying to light the province on fire and ultimately try and ride a wave of separatist fever. And that's why I think it's fucked. I think that ultimately Albertans are going to be more loyal to the province of Alberta than that.
Zain: Yeah, but, okay, so if you think that's the play, let's be clear on where you think she's going. So she's dialing up the temperature, and then she rides separatist fever, right, using your term, against separatism, right? Like, is that, I just want to be clear where you think she's going, like what her second and third- I have no idea where
Carter: I have no idea where she's going. I don't believe she's riding against separatism. You don't
Zain: riding against separatism. You don't think that's
Carter: that's going
Zain: going to be played
Carter: played
Zain: played two
Carter: two and three? I am told that there are- That she dials it up,
Zain: that there are- That she dials it up, says there's a crisis, and says she needs to quash it? I
Carter: I literally was told today that there are board members on UCP boards that are very pro-separatist, and they are trying to keep these people in line. And the way that they're trying to keep these people in line is to play the game. And they're playing this game, and this game is ultimately something that cannot succeed.
Shannon: trying to keep
Carter: It will not succeed. And it might be the only way that
Carter: that the NDP under Nahid Nenshi get
Carter: lucky enough to win the election because Nahid right now isn't building himself up an army to oppose the UCP, but an army may form to oppose this separation nonsense that Danielle Smith is playing with. she's playing with fire she's turning up the thermostat in an already hot room and it's going to catch on fire and that's where the that's why it's fucked in my opinion and why i've turned my mind again and shannon was completely fucking wrong okay
Zain: i'm going to go to our last question here and then i want to talk about stampede yeah weren't
Carter: weren't we supposed to do a tight 45 like what the hell's happened we're at 39 we're good what the fuck
Zain: we're at 39
Zain: what the fuck are you talking about just you get
Carter: you get
Carter: get
Zain: get into to a fiery rage. You can't even read the red time stamp with the thing that's just glowing in front of you, which says 3951. Had a good day
Carter: red time stamp with the thing that's just glowing
Carter: in front of you, which
Carter: Had a good day going and then Shannon started spouting off about fabulous.
Zain: then Shannon started
Zain: Shannon, Mr. Thomas Lukaszek, he has had this idea for this question, this referendum question as part of Forever Canada. He filed this question, which is a pro-Canada, I always get this confused, so you guys are going to help me out, right? Right. This pro-Canada referendum question, which is, do you agree that all British remain in Canada? That petition question was now approved on June 20th, just before Canada Day. And now he must he must collect signatures that take effect on July 1st, must collect nearly 294,000 signatures within 90 days. Rather than the lower threshold that has been applied that the premier has made way for the separatists to kind of do their question. And Lukaszek is now got there first, got his question approved. Now is to collect signatures to put this on a ballot. Okay. Is that is that is that Mike is the fact based correct from what you two understand so far?
Carter: so far?
Zain: Okay. Yes.
Carter: Yes.
Zain: Yes.
Carter: Yes. As
Zain: As it relates to Daniel Smith in the UCP is the fact that Lukaszek is here with this question fine and
Zain: the way he's trying to do it and his and his steps ahead as we've explained in broad terms. Is this fabulous? Shannon, this is a goldmine for Smith. This is great. Or is this fucked? Oh my God, real danger to what whatever her general opinion is. I know we've been speculating here what her agenda is. Fine, fabulous, or fucked, as it relates to what Lukaszek, he's up to, and this broader Forever Canada movement, which I'll call for from now on, what they're up to with their referendum question. It's
Shannon: fine on a Likert scale that goes further over to Fabulous for Thomas Lukasik and further over to Fox for Danielle Smith. I think getting to that 293 or four or whatever it is, is going to be nigh
Carter: think getting
Shannon: nigh on impossible. Absolutely impossible.
Carter: Absolutely impossible. 90 days from now, pretty much. But
Shannon: 90 days from now, pretty
Shannon: much.
Shannon: But it will provide momentum. It will be a counterweight. It will give people something to do and a reason to go to these stupid town halls that she's having across the province. It will give civil
Zain: It will give civil
Shannon: civil society something to do. It will give the raging grannies a piece of paper to sign when they show up. And so I think that is bad for Smith. It also does give a bit of a gift to the New Democrats. And it's a great way to go around canvassing this
Shannon: this summer to
Shannon: to be collecting signatures, I would be, because
Shannon: because otherwise, why are you standing on my door, right? Like for a lot of voters, they're like, usually you should have something for voters to do when you show up there as an incumbent.
Shannon: And so I think it's good for them. And it also places, I
Shannon: think, the NDP leader in a place of authenticity for him, right? On the Canada side, he thinks. Yeah, he's very good on the Captain Canada stuff. And so it provides an organizing sort of ethos, principle, reason for being over the summer and a counterweight to this Alberta Next stuff. Carter,
Zain: On the Canada side, he thinks. Yeah, he's very
Zain: Carter, fine fabulars are fucked for the UCP, the Lukaszik drive that's going to happen now to collect these signatures, which is a hybrid. And we'll talk about what we think the outright reality is of this situation overall. But give me a fine, fabulous, or fucked first.
Carter: I think it's fucked for them. I think that they're really screwed if you're the UCP because the question isn't going to get 293,000 signatures. There's just no way. We were talking about 177,000 as being nearly impossible. 293 just is ridiculously hard.
Carter: And I
Carter: I believe the legislation prohibits another question from being circulated for six months. On the broader specific topic. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Zain: On the broader specific topic. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Six months, 18 months.
Carter: Six months, 18 months. I can't remember what the numbers are specifically, but it does prohibit it. Now, one could make the case, and I suspect the UCP will or
Carter: the separatists will, that because the legislation changed, this means that the timer should start again. So they'll submit their question under the second timer. But I think that they're really going to have a hard time getting this question through. and ultimately that it's going to remove it from the citizens part of the referendum. However, it doesn't necessarily stop the province from doing it. So the UCP is now going to have to bring the question themselves. And now that there's been a positive framing of the question, I suspect the UCP will have to bring the positive framing of the question. So they're a bit fucked because I still believe that Danielle Smith wants to turn us into a U.S. state. This is my new theory. theory.
Zain: We'll explore that later. So here's my reading of it.
Zain: No simultaneous drives
Carter: No simultaneous
Zain: to collect on the same or similar. If it goes to a referendum question, it's a year-long waiting period before a new petition on the same issue can be considered. But the decision maker
Shannon: on the same or
Shannon: But the decision maker on this is Elections Alberta with judicial review, as I understand it.
Zain: it. Elections Alberta,
Shannon: Elections Alberta, in my experience anyway, I mean, at this point, you know, has been gutted of most of its teeth.
Shannon: So, you know, they may just do what the government wants, and then somebody is going to have to have the resources to put it to judicial review. So
Shannon: they might just rule in a way that is contrary to the public interest, and no one will do anything or care.
Zain: Let's focus back in on this Forever Canada process.
Zain: Carter, you've
Zain: you've been around campaigns, you've been around what timelines on campaigns Look like this is now clock started. This is a campaign.
Zain: Give me a sense of what the most realistic landing spot for this group looks like in 90 flash forward 90 days from now. And you don't have it. There's obviously the binary. Do they or do they not get the signatures, but there's other elements of successful and sometimes unsuccessful campaigns on outcomes that build tremendous community resources, power, potential, etc. et cetera. So give me a sense, paint me a picture of 90 days from now, what's the high watermark in terms of what this group could accomplish if they do things well?
Carter: If they do things well, I think they'll get 60,000 signatures. And what else will they
Shannon: I think they'll
Zain: And what else will they have? Talk to me about volunteers. Talk to me about across... They'll have grassroots
Carter: They'll have grassroots volunteers who have collected the signatures. They'll hopefully collect them in the proper way. As you know, the recall Gondek volunteers ultimately wound wound up collecting 60-some thousand or 50-some thousand signatures that were disallowed because they didn't follow the proper procedure. So
Carter: hopefully they at least follow the proper procedure. The likely
Carter: scenario, and this isn't the best case scenario, Zane, but the likely scenario is maybe the opposition to the question want to pick up this particular question and say, we can still win with this question. And sorry, just to be
Zain: And sorry, just to be clear for the audience and myself, the opposition to this question would be the separatists. The
Carter: The separatists pick it up and say, we're going to go out and collect 270,000 signatures because we can do that. And we know that this question, we can still succeed with this question. And this is our chance. But realistically, I think separatists combined with the Kazakhs people wind up collecting somewhere in the neighborhood of 60,000 signatures. signatures and the best case the best case outcome for this is that there's the question was considered and now as moot for whatever shenton
Zain: pick it up
Shannon: for
Zain: for whatever
Zain: you want to hazard painting me a picture in terms of what you might think would happen 90 days from now as they go on their signature drive like you don't have to give me numbers like carter did but then i'll let you have a take at this if you'd like yeah
Shannon: yeah i mean my head in my head was 50 uh if the recall gondek people uh
Shannon: uh collected 60 uh and you know you would be driving through calgary and you'd see them like sitting at the side of the the road with like a little sandwich board, right? Like there were actual, there were some organizational resources behind those signatures. They were in, you know, mall parking lots and all that kind of thing.
Carter: with like a
Shannon: So
Shannon: yeah, 50 or 60, probably 90 days is very short period of time, particularly in summer. So you're going to have to do most of it in September when people are around and paying more attention. And even then, I think volunteers are going to find that as soon as they're going to door to door or standing in mall parking lots, whatever the case may be, you're going to be be standing there explaining to people what
Shannon: what the hell you're doing there because like the information environment is such that people actually don't know a lot about this and
Shannon: and without advertising money behind it that's again another problem sorry carter go ahead i
Carter: and without advertising
Carter: i was just going to say you know the numbers on this are actually pretty staggering so if you go door knocking and you get it's 33 one-third of the people uh answer the door and one-third of the people um
Carter: actually sign the petition which is where we are right
Carter: right what is the number that they're trying to to reach 290 000 give or take 290
Zain: 290 some 94 i believe isn't yeah
Carter: yeah so you multiply that by nine homes that you'd have to door knock to get one signature that means they'd have to door knock 2 million 610 000 homes in order to generate the total number of signatures that they're looking for that's the mall parking
Shannon: that's the mall parking lots yeah it's where you're gonna have to do that there's no
Carter: it's where you're gonna have to do that there's no fucking way there is zero fucking way that this thing actually goes forward i will bet i
Carter: don't want want to bet a million dollars because i don't have a million dollars to lose i will bet a thousand dollars to who this is important to anybody anybody wants to bet a thousand
Zain: to who this is important to
Zain: thousand okay fine well okay
Carter: thousand okay
Carter: make
Zain: make carter lose.ca that's where you can submit to your form to to take on steven carter we're still collecting uh last meal at swiss by the way shed it how many how many people have had their last meal at swiss chalet you've probably missed this entire no
Carter: carter lose
Shannon: no i saw that part um uh and no okay
Zain: no okay
Zain: okay uh but
Shannon: uh
Shannon: uh
Shannon: uh but is it an alberta number a canada number since the founding of the
Zain: canada number since the founding of the the restaurant and it's not by food poisoning jesus i've clarified all the things oh like you have
Shannon: oh like you have to like have had the big one right when you go home kind of thing exactly
Zain: exactly yeah that's this is correct yeah yeah okay like how many
Shannon: correct yeah
Shannon: okay like how many individuals oh i'd say about a thousand oh
Zain: oh okay that's that's
Shannon: that's a number
Zain: number show your work
Shannon: number show your work
Carter: work
Zain: work yeah
Carter: yeah
Zain: yeah now part b of this contest that people are expecting we have no way of proving these numbers so people are going to have to actually find out the number and then come back to us and show us that their work is right it's not going to show up in corners So you get my signed Swiss chalet hat that we're promising. Let's move it to our over, under, and our lightning round. I've got two questions for you, and they're about two very different things. Question number one, Shannon, I want to start with you. And I want to go flash to the Alberta Next panel for a second, because I said we're going to address this, which is the amount of people and the quality of the people that Premier Smith has been able to wrangle into this panel. And my simple question is, can one say no to the Premier when the Premier calls? Is the explanation for why someone with the credibility of, I'm not going to pick on these guys, but Toom or Legg, who are public figures that we know, just have to say yes when the Premier calls. And the question is, can you say no to the Premier when the Premier asks you to do something and phrases it, and perhaps believably so, that's for the good of the province? I
Shannon: part b of this contest that
Carter: that people
Shannon: proving these
Shannon: it's not going to show up in corners So you get my signed Swiss chalet hat that
Shannon: would say that if you're the business counsel, it's much harder than if you're an independent academic.
Zain: And
Shannon: And if you're an academic, you can say no and do say no all the time to all kinds of things. And so I think there's a distinction there. I do think that there is also a distinction, though, in having a speaking role or not. And, you know, in validating things. And so that's the distinction I would make for that as well. And, you know, that can make it tough to be seen
Shannon: seen to be validating some of the ideas that were in that Alberta Next survey, which are pretty far offside mainstream opinion for anyone.
Zain: Carter, what's your take?
Carter: My take is that the people who are on this panel are disqualified from having opinions in the future. You think so? You're going to chief of
Zain: You're going to chief of staff to a premier. It's hard to say no to you and or a premier if you as a chief of staff. You certainly can say
Carter: You certainly can say no when the future of the province is at stake and you're being asked to serve with people like Michael Binion. You know, like the list of names on this list. The Bedfellows
Zain: Bedfellows is fascinating. If you Google some of these people. Who else are you going to be with
Carter: Google some of these people. Who else are you going to be with here in this conversation? This is bullshit. I mean, the president
Carter: president of Whitecap Resources is going to be, you know, is going to come across as a come out with with, you know, a reasonable position on how Ottawa has impacted his industry. Like it's it's are you fucking kidding me? This is bullshit. And and the people who want to be taken seriously. I ran into Trevor Toome yesterday and I apologized to him profusely for calling him a shill. Anyway, she's a total fucking shill for being on this panel. You know, it's very upsetting to me that people that I have respect for would actually take this position and it will be disqualifying in the future. The way that, you know, Steve Allen used to be someone that was respected and then he's served at the whim of Danielle Smith to write the report that she's already wanted from the beginning. and that's what this panel is you know trevor tomb is trying to pretend that he's actually going to be able to listen to the to the input it's bullshit he's going to be he's going to have an overweighted with rural and um you
Carter: know if you're really reflecting what the population's saying the population is going to be absolutely skewed this is the problem with engagement you don't get the full fucking population you get the wackadoodles the 20 of the population that It already has believing in conspiracy theories. He's going to get the anti-vax crowd. That's who he's going to get at this fucking panel. What's he going to do? Well, they don't believe in vaccinations, but they do believe in an Alberta police force. Fuck off!
Zain: Hey, Carter, my second question is, best stampede political tactic you have seen? Just dial down the blood pressure. Oh,
Carter: Oh, best stampede political tactic that I've seen? Yeah, it could
Zain: Oh, best stampede
Zain: Yeah, it could be a couple of days into stampede. Well, not even a couple. This is day one, but it's already begun if you've done it, Carter. and i know you have yeah uh historic and
Carter: yeah uh historic
Zain: and or this cycle for me i'll tell you my personal favorite is those calgary party uh lamp posters that chima came up with that idea great idea by chima
Carter: chima chima is a genius yeah i'm coming up with that idea yeah no that is the best idea i've ever seen for a stampede i
Zain: yeah i'm coming
Zain: yeah no that is the
Zain: stampede i was told to say that and i told it would get under your skin yeah
Zain: yeah
Carter: yeah i really fucking really fucking bothers me i'm trying to not let it bother me but it's really i don't I don't
Shannon: i really fucking really fucking bothers
Shannon: bothers
Shannon: bothers me i'm trying
Zain: trying
Shannon: trying
Zain: me but it's really i don't I don't know any of the back story, but I know he did it. I know he did it.
Carter: know he did it.
Carter: he did it.
Zain: Carter, but the question is real. I do think the question is fun.
Zain: What is a political tactic that you have seen, normal or otherwise, that you find to be intriguing for a Stampede or Stampede-like gathering?
Carter: I think it's really difficult because at the end of the day, most of these events are uniform. We've talked about the politics of Stampede before on the podcast. We've done it long,
Zain: We've done it long, yeah.
Carter: yeah. And everybody has to do the same things. You go to the same events, you run into the same people, you have the same conversations, and then you move on to the next event. And, you know, the joke is, you know, oh, you're stalking me. Oh, you're following me. By the way,
Zain: By the way, you should direct people to that episode because Corey gives some very good advice that you can now apply to Corey. To Corey.
Carter: To Corey. Yeah. But you have to do it. You have to do the thing. So I don't think I can I don't think I have a what's a great tactic other than you have to do the tactic. Sure. This is what you have to do. And
Zain: Yeah.
Zain: to
Shannon: to do
Zain: And I guess and I should have phrased my question, but either a tactic in terms of what you've seen from politicians, from political parties, from others. Shannon, I'll expand the scope to you to have you, you know, wide berth on your wherever you'd like to take it in terms of stampede or stampede like event political tactics you've seen that you find interesting, impressive novel.
Shannon: It's the first year in 10 years that I don't have to do Stampede and I'm not going to and it is glorious. I cannot tell you how glorious it is. And I'm not doing any of it and proudly so. But it is important to note that Carter is wrong on this. because you don't have to do the traveling cocktail party after a couple of these things. You can stop into one or two of them and then you can leave that behind. You don't need to be looking, sitting there at two in the afternoon watching the same, you know, vice president government relations get shit-faced at two in the afternoon. You don't have to do it. Yes, you don't have to do it after you do a couple of them, you should just leave. And in my view, the best tactics were were once we got away from that glorified pedal bar that is the lobbyist circuit, right? They are just appalling after a little while. Just all these, you know, GR people getting shit-faced at two in the afternoon on a Wednesday. It's stupid and it's not work and nobody should subject themselves to it. Instead, what the New Democrats started doing a few years back that I thought was really smart was they started doing local, you know, out in the great beyond. So one at Killarney, one at the Glenmore Reservoir, one, you know, wherever, right? Up at Confederation Park, you name it, of community events with MLAs or candidates or, you know, writing association people. And it was a reason for the MLAs to go out and canvass and say, hey, I'm having a thing, right?
Carter: cannot tell you how glorious it is.
Zain: because you
Zain: afternoon watching the
Zain: you know, vice president government relations get shit-faced at two in the afternoon.
Zain: You don't have to do it. Yes, you don't
Zain: the
Carter: a
Shannon: right? And there's food and sometimes it's morning and sometimes it's afternoon. noon um and uh because stampede is a time of of uh the community engaging in calgary in neighborhoods not necessarily down on
Shannon: stephen avenue and on the stampede grounds and in the associated uh bars where the you know you go eat canapes and and watch uh uh business people you know wear costumes and get drunk um and so there's much more to stampede than that and embedding oneself in community is a really important thing to do number two fundraising if all those Those drunk people are going to be there at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. You can charge them $350 to come to an event in the evening. That is the best use of your time during Stampede. Wow.
Carter: How wrong can Shannon be in one
Shannon: Shannon be in one
Shannon: one
Carter: one episode? Holy shit. What
Shannon: one
Zain: one episode?
Zain: shit. What you could tell me, Shannon, was there any meaningful GR actions or conversations you had at any of those events that led to advancement? She was Minister of Environment. I'm just curious. Anybody
Carter: She was Minister of Environment. I'm just curious. Anybody had any meaningful interactions with her? There are probably people who spend
Zain: interactions with her? There are probably people who spend time on hosting, who spend time on setting up these events, who spend time doing these because it's what they've done. I'm actually curious from a former elected minister and official, like, did you feel like, you know, I know at some point you're like, I'm not doing these anymore. But were they of any value to any nutritional value to you and your gig as a representative? Oh,
Shannon: yeah. That's why I said go do two or three of them and then get the hell out.
Zain: That's why I
Shannon: because you know it is good to make connections with these people to give out your phone number to say yeah absolutely I would take that meeting because some of those you know meetings are important and some of those folks are important a lot of business does get done at Stampede but there is a threshold and after that it is diminishing returns and so do one or two of them or three or four and stack them up and get out uh was my uh view on it because after a while you know and as the week goes on people get a little bit looser and drunker and that is i used to say to people i'm like no i'm not having a drink at two o'clock in the afternoon on a wednesday i don't drink at work i don't know what you're doing um like it got so your personal popularity was
Carter: your personal popularity was so high yeah
Zain: yeah you know this is this judgy woman yeah to be a minister of the crown I'm being
Carter: yeah you know this is this
Shannon: this
Carter: this
Shannon: this
Carter: this judgy
Shannon: judgy woman yeah to be a minister of
Shannon: being a
Zain: a real asshole. I just
Shannon: asshole. I just found it to be, you know, like if we're at work, then we're at work. And, and if we're not, then we're not. But there is value in obviously some of that relationship building. And let's face it, those happen at those lobbyists. That's interesting. So you would go in, go hard and
Zain: That's interesting. So you would go in, go hard and then be like ghost, like not ghost, but like I'm done. Right. No. And then I would
Shannon: No. And then I would go do community stuff after
Zain: stuff after that.
Shannon: after that. And I would spend my time, you know, at those breakfasts, like, you know, know working the the the lineup talking to people there like normies right not uh some vpgr uh for some midstream company um but uh i would go and help uh you know calgary mlas and like
Shannon: like let's go do things or you know work the crowd there like in other words like talk to voters uh
Shannon: uh people who vote
Carter: vote
Carter: vote
Shannon: vote
Carter: vote
Shannon: vote ridiculous
Carter: you're
Zain: you're
Zain: just angry i think she just had the better take within you No,
Carter: No, my take was fucking fantastic. It was in keeping with the ethos of this entire program, and she's just shat down our throat. Which is
Zain: fantastic. It was in keeping with
Shannon: she's just
Shannon: Which is what? Like an uncritical, slavish devotion to Stampede?
Carter: Oh, yeah. That's what we're known for. Is that what we're doing here? Oh, my God.
Shannon: Is
Zain: Is that
Shannon: that
Zain: that
Shannon: that what
Zain: what we're doing here? Oh,
Zain: Yes, yes. The Stampede co-op or corporation. I don't know which one it is. We're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 1877 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Belger. With me, as always, Shannon Phillips, Stephen Carter, and we shall see you next time.