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SPEAKER_03: Terri Hart, and this is The Heart of It All, a podcast about navigating the messy, beautiful, complicated realities of caregiving for our aging loved ones. Every week, I sit down with experts, caregivers, and families to talk honestly about what it means to support an aging parent. If you're a caregiver or you want to know what to expect when you inevitably become one, you're in the right place. The Heart of It All. That's Hart spelled H-A-R-T. teeth new episodes every week wherever you get your podcasts a
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Zain: is a strategist episode 1870 my name is zane velji with me as always stephen carter and shannon phillips how are you guys and
Zain: and oh having a great time and and and shannon girl
Carter: oh having a great time and
Zain: girl guys and
Carter: guys and shannon that's nice lady uh
Zain: shannon that's nice lady uh whatever you prefer whatever Whatever she'd prefer. I'm giving her space, Carter.
Shannon: uh
Carter: whatever
Shannon: whatever
Carter: whatever
Shannon: whatever you prefer whatever
Shannon: Oh, okay.
Zain: Honestly,
Shannon: Honestly, I don't care. I think, yeah, we can wheel over guys. We can just pave that over. I think that's probably pretty gender neutral at this point. Anyway, hi, guys. How are you?
Zain: think, yeah,
Carter: yeah,
Shannon: We're doing great.
Carter: We're
Zain: We're doing great.
Carter: great. Doing
Zain: Doing great. Former Alberta NDP cabinet minister, longtime MLA, brain trust of the NDP, I'd say, all over the country, but specifically here in Alberta. And now, what are we up to, Shannon?
Carter: Doing
Shannon: Doing great.
Carter: great.
Shannon: I am a consultant. And so that, I know that sounds awful, isn't it? She makes
Zain: I
Carter: I know
Zain: sounds awful,
Carter: awful, isn't it? She makes so much money, though. Are we changing the name of the show to The Consultants?
Zain: Are we changing the name of the show to The Consultants? The Consultants. Do we own The
Shannon: Consultants.
Carter: Consultants.
Shannon: Do
Carter: Do we
Shannon: own The Consultants?
Carter: The Consultants?
Zain: Consultants?
Shannon: I'm in a small firm with a liberal and a conservative, Tyler Meredith and Kim Bozenkul. And me, I'm the notional New Democrat of the group. You will find that I am a pretty poorly behaved federal New Democrat, as you may have even seen through the Calgary Confederation campaign. But I've been a New Democrat for a really long time. uh you know 25 years uh and so now here i am i'm on the other side of public life which is a happy place to be and uh wandering around the country you know uh
Shannon: doing projects giving advice it's good
Zain: carter hogan is dead to us and in part he doesn't because of shannon phillips um you gave him such good advice during that campaign that he is now you've you've actually effectively kicked him off the show yeah that's i didn't do anything i
Shannon: carter
Shannon: in part he doesn't because of shannon phillips
Carter: yeah that's
Shannon: that's i didn't do anything i wish i could have done more i i really want to go the canvassing you really
Zain: want to go the canvassing you really wanted him off the show yeah no
Shannon: really
Shannon: really wanted him off the
Shannon: i i really wanted to go canvassing to see what was going on out there uh because i think it was a really interesting moment in canadian politics uh and i love hearing from like the random voters right i want to know what's making him tick and uh i know carter doesn't want to hear from them uh yeah well
Zain: carter
Zain: uh yeah well
Shannon: well i mean they're they're living in an interesting part of town and uh i have an interesting perspective and they elected an interesting guy so um
Shannon: um i like that part of the the job i think it's uh it's
Shannon: it's
Shannon: it's worth doing it's worth knowing how they tick and
Carter: how to reach even worth is it even worth having her on the show if she likes talking to the average voter no
Zain: no it is not no the entire premise of the show is that we sit above and away from yeah
Carter: entire premise of the show is that we sit above and
Shannon: and away
Shannon: away
Zain: yeah it was really lovely we also apparently
Shannon: yeah it was really lovely we also apparently kick the shit out of the audience periodically that maybe
Shannon: maybe i'll maybe i'll try to do that you
Zain: i'll try to do that you know what we'll get we'll let let you have your first go at that we'll
Zain: we'll make that period right now well
Shannon: we'll make that period right now well i i don't really understand why anybody's listening to this show so we start there i have questions about people's judgment especially on the pay why do we bring on people
Zain: why do we bring on people that don't listen to the show carter this this no she actually does she's
Shannon: no she actually does she's
Carter: she's a listener she's but
Shannon: but she's asking why
Zain: but she's asking why she's asking why yeah and i think she knows why well i've never listened to the show i get it i have
Shannon: yeah
Carter: yeah and i think she knows why well
Carter: well
Shannon: well i've never listened
Carter: listened to the show
Shannon: show i get it i have moments of self-reflection whenever i do listen to this show here's
Carter: have
Zain: here's
Shannon: here's
Zain: here's
SPEAKER_03: here's
Shannon: here's what i want to do i
Zain: here's what i want to do i want to tap into to shannon's shannon i want to tap into your unique alberta-based insights carter i want to spend the next 45 talking about separatism in this province but not in the way that other podcasts are which is the piecemeal of what's happening you know what daniel smith has done etc can the two of us can the two of you and the three of us by extension can we work together over the next 45 and carve out maybe some of the key elements of what a successful opposition to this needs to to look like. We've talked about this in piecemeal. And what's sparking this is that Thomas Lukasik, former deputy premier of Alberta, has now registered his question and has been doing the media waves this past week,
Zain: suggesting that his version of the separatist question has been filed first with Elections Alberta. And therefore, perhaps, maybe it might be the question, should it get approved? And his question is very much about Alberta should and forever remain part of Canada and any separatist notion will be and forever rejected. I'm paraphrasing, but that's the element of it. And
SPEAKER_01: element of it.
Zain: And so that got me thinking, is
Zain: that the right call, like acutely, what Lukaszek is doing? And then more specifically, what do we need to be doing? What does an ideal, like not even like as activists and people, let's structure what the actual opposition to this thing needs to look like. And I think to me, it begins with a very simple question that I'd like to throw at the two of you, which is do
Zain: we need one unified singular campaign or do we need multiple campaigns across the board saying their own distinct thing about why separatism in this province is not a good idea shannon can i give you the first sort of kick at this in terms of like just the top line what do you think when i throw that out to you i
Shannon: i honestly think that there needs to be one campaign needs to be no uh
Shannon: that's where my gut is taking me right now i mean i'm open to new information and i'm open to other perspectives but when I see the Lukasznik thing I think okay
Shannon: okay like that is that is driving things into one place which is no never and you're not going to like kind of get some of those persuadable people in the middle to go you know well maybe not ever right and that's that is the way people think so I think we're better off with a no to Danielle Smith no to separatism and keep the campaign around no
SPEAKER_03: like kind
Shannon: rather than like no to whatever they're their question is right instead of putting uh
Carter: of
Zain: of putting uh
Shannon: uh instead of putting a separate like a notice separation question on the ballot i think there's a risk which is which is what he's done
Zain: which is which is what he's done with this yeah
Shannon: yeah exactly and there's just there's a risk of having too much going on and there's a risk of splitting resources right because you got to think that these these republican guys like somebody is funding this shit uh
Shannon: uh there's you know there's leaflets on the doorsteps in the in the by elections there's uh there's already a campaign going on out there on the ground uh for them Yeah.
Carter: doorsteps
Shannon: And and so and and it's not clear to me how much money is behind the Lukaszek effort. It's not clear to me how much money might be around other efforts. It scares the shit out of me, actually, to have, you know, everybody running off madly in all directions. And you're going to kind of accomplish nothing because it's not going to coalesce around one thing. There's not going to be one.
SPEAKER_03: how much money
Zain: There's not going to be one. I'm glad you mentioned this on two points in particular. Number one, like your criticism of what Lukaszek and team, as being all noble in their ambition, have put on the table is very similar to mine, which is it's a bit of a risk play. But Carter, can I get you on what Lukaszek is doing first before I ask you to give me a should there be a singular venture that props all of this up? What do you think about what he's trying to do? File first, get it to be a positive question. So unearth the positive sentiments of Alberta and remaining within Canada and using that as a wedge and potentially, we don't know this just yet because it's been untested, potentially roadblocking the separatists in terms of them getting their question on the on the referendum ballot. Yeah,
Carter: Carter,
Carter: I mean, it's an interesting gambit. I'm not sure that I mean, I think that both Premier Smith and Thomas Lukasik are playing a little bit with fire just by recognizing the legitimacy of this. My view would be take a longer view. Try not to take the legitimacy and add to it. If you put forth a positive framed question, you're now the yes side. I'm not sure that that's necessarily where you want to be, to echo Shannon's point. But I think more to the point, like he's trying to make it so that his question is the only question that can be asked for five years. Correct. That's actually exactly what
SPEAKER_00: just by
Zain: That's
Zain: That's actually exactly what he suggested he's trying to do.
Carter: that's his and i i'm not sure i'm not sure that his question is the only question i want asked on this in the next five years i kind of prefer the alberta separatist question and i kind of prefer making them be the ones to put it on the ballot i got you know thomas thinks i mean i don't know maybe thomas thinks his his his his question will fail but the the problem with that is all of the people like everybody
Carter: can vote for this question to be on the ballot yeah and then vote against it right like he's playing with a sense of fire like this question could be on the ballot because now people who don't want to separate may sign this petition and people who do want to separate may sign this petition and suddenly the path to 180 000 signatures or whatever the number is yeah is that much easier because both sides are signing the petition i don't want both sides I want
Shannon: yeah and
Shannon: then
Shannon: right like
SPEAKER_01: yeah is that
Carter: to make it so that only one side signs the petition, and that side is the separate side.
SPEAKER_02: and that side is the separate
Carter: This puts a path in front of us that could see us actually having the referendum, as opposed to the easiest path. The easiest path is that this thing never gets to the referendum. It fails getting 180
Zain: 180,000 signatures. Because
Carter: Because that is still, even though Danielle Smith has reduced the threshold dramatically from what it was, like I think it was closer to 600,000 signatures, and now it's 180,000 signatures. I'm using round numbers. This
Zain: ,000
SPEAKER_00: ,000
Carter: is infinitely easier, but it's still not easy. It's
Carter: It's still not easy to get 180,000 people all to sign something and say, yes, I agree with that. It is easier to get 180,000 people to sign something saying, I want this question on the ballot. And that's what Thomas is playing with. Thomas is playing with fire in suggesting that this question, his positively phrased question, is
Zain: is now
Carter: is now going to get on the ballot and win. I
Carter: I think keeping them off the ballot is far easier than winning the actual referendum. It
Zain: also potentially even gives Smith an out in some ways as being the engineer of this conversation, the singular engineer of this conversation. It phrased that a bit and says, at some point, we're going to take the mantle, put a separatist question, even if it's in the positive frame, and say citizens have now. It kind of lets her off the hook from a pure Smith driving the agenda. Shannon, jump in here. React to what Carter's saying, because I think you laid it down, and I think you guys might be quite aligned on this from what I hear. I
Shannon: I think we are aligned. And the reason is where you are, you know, driving public attention, because this is all about the attention economy, right? Daniel Smith is grabbing the nation's attention in the wake of Carney winning, and
SPEAKER_03: Carney winning,
Shannon: and driving it to where she wants it to go, which is Alberta's getting a raw deal, politics of endless grievance, you know, I reelect me because I'm the only one who can stand up to Carney, yada, yada, yada, right? Right. That's what she's driving towards. But she's also driving towards keeping her own people
SPEAKER_03: grievance, you
Shannon: people together. We make that a lot easier if we're running madly off in all directions with, you know, a couple of different separation questions, some of which become sort of unclear. What am I voting for? Am I voting yes on this one? No on that one? You know, there's a reason why this became quite an issue 30 odd years ago. You know, we even had a federal clarity act and a fucking Supreme Court decision over the over the issue because this stuff gets really complicated fast. And people, you know, dick around with the question framing in order to kind of yank voters chain. They do this. Right. And so I don't know. I don't know the value in
Carter: And people,
Shannon: in sort of adding to that, participating in it. I would rather just make this Danielle Smith's fault in
Shannon: in the first place that we're having this silly, distracting conversation and pin it all on her, the instability,
SPEAKER_03: the first place
Shannon: instability, the uncertainty, the will they or won't they, you know, she's the like, and basically for a broad swath of Albertans then, you know, beyond just the sort of progressive left or whatever, to be able to say no, like this is a bad idea for the future of the province. It allows other forces to be able to build a much larger coalition than otherwise might be possible. And driving ourselves into littler corners is the last thing that anybody who is like basically not UCP, which is what I would call everyone
SPEAKER_03: than
Zain: than otherwise
Shannon: everyone else, right, who doesn't share Daniel Smith's views. That's the last thing we need. We do not need to be siloing ourselves off. And this runs the risk of doing that. Like I said, like I could be convinced, but at first blush, like I'm not loving it.
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SPEAKER_03: I'm Terri Hart, and this is The Heart of It All, a podcast about navigating the messy, beautiful, complicated realities of caregiving for our aging loved ones. Every week, I sit down with experts, caregivers, and families to talk honestly about what it means to support an aging parent. If you're a caregiver or you want to know what to expect when you inevitably become one, you're in the right place. The heart of it all. That's heart spelled H-A-R-T. New episodes every week wherever you get your podcasts.
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Zain: So, Shannon, welcome to the show. I'll get back to the first question in 25 minutes because I haven't gone back there just yet. Yeah, Carter, this is actually interesting to me because both of you have teased at this, but it goes back to what Hogan would talk to us about on the show often about this era of negative partisanship. And if the Lukaszek question, let's just pretend there's a world in which the separatist question, Elections Alberta denies because Lukaszek got his paperwork in first. Let's just say the story he's telling right now is the right one, that there's only one question on this. if that ends up happening you're actually trying to mobilize a bunch of people to say yes to the status quo which
Zain: versus a trying to get a bunch of people to say no to an imminent threat they
Zain: it sounds like semantics it's not is it no
Carter: it's totally different it's totally different motivations i mean people find uh they're you know like you you will you will find yourself in a place where where you can't motivate yourself to get out of bed to go and vote for a yes on the status quo, but you absolutely can get out of bed and go and vote no on a threat.
Carter: On a threat, on a cloud coming down on
Zain: On a threat, on a cloud coming down on you sort of thing. Yeah, those two
Carter: Yeah, those two actions are totally different. One of the reasons, I mean, we use hope and we use fear in elections, right? We use hope and we use fear. But status quo is neither. Status
Carter: Status quo is neither hope nor fear. Status quo is existence, right? So Thomas is picking a question that is neither status quo, or because it's status quo, it is neither hope nor fear. Now he would, can I
Zain: Now he would, can I interrupt you there? He would argue that what they're trying to do, and now he's not made this argument, but I'm going to try to make it on his behalf, is
Carter: is that
Zain: is that with the brand of their organization, and they're trying to say we're always going to be Canadian, forever Canadian, the hope of Canada is encapsulated in their affirming
Zain: affirming question. enough
Zain: no not
Zain: not enough i mean i
Carter: mean i i think that there's other other ways of tackling it and maybe we'll get to them in a little bit but i think that the the uh we
Carter: shouldn't be playing on the same field as the separatists yeah we should be organizing on a different field and that doesn't mean you know i'm not suggesting that thomas's instinct to organize is wrong is
Zain: yeah we should
Zain: is wrong thomas's
Carter: thomas's instinct to organize is correct how he's choosing to organize is incorrect in my mind because he's He's accepting the premise of the problem. Let's not accept the premise of the problem. Let's choose a different problem. There are many, many problems that we can choose to tackle in this province. Danielle has given us oh so many.
Carter: Why would we choose to be on the same path and the same plane as the separatists? That's what bothers me about Thomas's move. Well, another way to put this is people
Shannon: Well, another way to put this is people don't vote to say thank you. They vote to say fuck you. you uh and so the job of of a political campaign is to point them in which direction they're trying to say that you want them to say fuck you too uh and uh and and that that's going to be the the job of the no campaign right um rather than you know saying oh thank you you know the red white flag yay you know uh that is i still want to keep it yeah i'm re
Carter: and
SPEAKER_03: and so the job of of a political campaign
Zain: i still want to keep it yeah i'm re-upping it's like it's like it's like rather than having auto renewal i'm going out to like explicitly check the box to auto renew on what's been going on how many people do that like we could see that from a basic psychology point of view that like from even just as a digital marketer and a marketer like you that is really tough for people to do right there's another example pre-checked for people exactly i mean
Shannon: it's like it's
SPEAKER_00: many people do
Shannon: there's another example pre-checked
Shannon: i mean look at the cpp conversation right which is part and parcel of the separatism nonsense and it's funny that they won't put the cpp conversation on the ballot explicitly they'll put this amorphous blob of separatism on the ballot right but they they already took this for a test drive uh with the cpp conversation and what did they find they threw nine or ten million dollars uh at a campaign and they found that people did not want something taken away from them people were saying no right
Zain: at the cpp
Zain: that they won't
Shannon: right but try to pry those people out of their houses with a crowbar to get them to go and mark a ballot for yes to the cpp i like uh my payroll deductions that's not going to happen uh but they they will you know, write to their MLAs, write to their whatever, and participate in some way to say, no, you're not going to take something away from me, right?
SPEAKER_03: but try
Shannon: right? And that's another sort of riff on the negative partisanship thing. But it is, again, tapping into how people feel about, they want to reject a change that they don't like, they don't want to underline something that they already have.
Zain: But
Carter: But
Zain: Carter, I'm so glad that Shannon pushed Corey off the pot. This is so insightful in so So many fewer words. Oh,
Carter: so insightful in so
Zain: Oh, so many fewer words. He mentioned the amount of words. Do you think he's going to say the most words in Parliament this year?
Carter: Oh, so many fewer words. He mentioned the amount of words.
Carter: I think he could. I
Zain: I think he is.
Carter: think he is.
Carter: He's on the government side. Don't think that's going to
Zain: Don't think that's going to stop him. You don't think that's going to slow him down? I don't think that's going to slow him down at all.
Carter: You don't think
Zain: I need to get a clarification from you, Carter, because I got Shannon's answer on this. Singular, no campaign, and an extension question to you, Carter. Is that no campaign also the same campaign that organizes on a separate question? So
Zain: just to be clear, your argument is that we need another question that can then mobilize people to get out and then defeat the referendum, but also has its own question. Is your version of a no campaign, A, singular? And
Zain: B, is it the same organizing nucleus as the other question
Carter: B,
Zain: question in your mind?
Carter: I think so. Oh, interesting. I for sure thought
Zain: Oh, interesting.
Zain: for sure thought you were going to go with no. with no no no
Carter: no no
Carter: no because it needs to be one shan's point about it being only one group of people who who ultimately carry the no thing forward like for example there is an almost a zero percent chance that two referendum questions are going to get approved in the same cycle let the separatists try and do theirs and then the the the no side tries and does tries to do you
Carter: you know our question let's call it our question for now our question is going to be something unrelated to the the uh separatism,
Zain: separatism, but it's maybe about the air that we're breathing metaphorically. Pollution.
Carter: but it's maybe about
Carter: metaphorically. Pollution. No, but
Zain: No, but like about what's happening currently in Alberta. Something related to that. Right, right, right. Whatever
Carter: Whatever we choose to do. But the odds of both of them succeeding and both of them winding up on the ballot are infinitesimal. I mean, I keep coming back to how hard this is. I suspect that we would fail in getting enough signatures enough signatures to actually get our question on the ballot but we would succeed in generating thousands of names tens of thousands of names hundreds over a hundred thousand names i bet plus
Shannon: I
Carter: plus we would have thousands
Carter: of organizers and
Carter: and
Carter: and
Zain: and then you're saying they become the default no campaign exactly because then
Carter: and then you're saying they
Carter: exactly because then they become the no campaign and now you're three thousand organizers to the good and you're uh you've identified a hundred thousand signatures and if you're not even worried that much about getting the signatures. You do some of the things that were done tactically in the Jyotigandak campaign because as you know, the signatures all have to be, you know, wet ink. They have to be written.
Carter: But it doesn't stop us from gathering online signatures because we don't actually care if we're successful. What we care about is having the question. What we care about is finding the names of the people who are opposed to Daniel Smith and Daniel Smith's government. That's way more interesting to us.
Zain: Shannon, I'm impressed by carter's sort of like you know three-step process my my skepticism is the following and i'll get you to comment on what he's thrown on the table too but my skepticism is the following is
Zain: that too many dominoes to fall rather than just mounting a very solid no campaign
Zain: that's a bit of 3d chess
Shannon: that's a bit of 3d chess
Zain: yeah right
Shannon: right
Carter: right it is um it's 2d chess at the most well most considering the
Shannon: it's 2d
Shannon: 2d
Shannon: well most considering the source considering
Zain: the source
Carter: source considering
Zain: considering the source this is true
Carter: considering
Shannon: it
Zain: it
Shannon: it could go into that where i can see where he's going with it right because Because any time you are going out there in a moment of heightened political activity of any kind and going out there and then driving towards ground war, like, I am here for that. Right? And I think that is not wasted effort at all. And so my only concern is we haven't really talked about what that no campaign looks like. So I just want to pivot to that for a moment. Yeah,
SPEAKER_03: wasted effort at
SPEAKER_00: pivot
SPEAKER_03: pivot
SPEAKER_00: pivot to that for a moment. Yeah, yeah, please, please. Because
Shannon: please, please. Because that's the piece that's like, oh, I don't know, a little bit existential for the country. and, you know, is the kind of stuff that makes me nervous, right, about, you know, how close Danielle is really flying to the sun here. And that particular effort needs
SPEAKER_03: Because
Shannon: to be, we need to think about who is sort of leading that, how it is raising money, how broad it is. And that's going to be the much more difficult piece of work because near as I can tell right now, you know, You know, you've got Shannon Phillips and Jason Kenney in the same tent. That's a fairly broad coalition. I don't know how you go around trying to, you
Shannon: you know, to fund that, to organize it, to make
Shannon: make it as broad across the country, right? Do you involve outside voices from other provinces? Do you keep it straight to Alberta, right? Are you wheeling out, I don't know, like the Cowboys and the Reds? ranchers and uh you know the the oil man plus that plus the enviros like how broad are you making this thing um and more to the point most importantly how are you funding it to make sure it's effective right uh that to me i hear you is
SPEAKER_03: across the country,
SPEAKER_03: Do you
Carter: that to me i hear you is
Shannon: is the one that is the the piece that that makes me more nervous i feel like it's almost like yeah there's
Shannon: there's that piece that feels more complicated uh there's the thing that that carter's talking about take another question another public public interest uh a topic of which there are many uh and use it to organize that's fantastic because we're probably going into an early election like i'm here for it uh it leaves aside the more thorny and like ball of hair question on the no
SPEAKER_03: and use it
Zain: so
Carter: so then you have to can i just jump in the doors yeah let me just do this let me just lay it on
Shannon: then you have to can i just jump in the doors yeah
Zain: yeah
Shannon: yeah
Zain: yeah
Shannon: let
Zain: let me just do this let me just lay it on me yeah yeah you
Carter: you have to open the doors to all of those other people who weren't a part of your system in generating the Like the first 2,000 organizers are going to be the organizers that came in to help you sign up for your question. The next 2,000 organizers are going to be some people who might be mortally opposed to your question that you originally asked and you've got to open the doors. You've got to throw open the doors and make it a singular no effort because the singular no effort is far more important than any of the questions that you're going to get on them. If they're successful in getting this question on the ballot, which I maintain they are more likely to be successful with Thomas's question than they are to be successful with their own question.
Zain: So interesting, but I will say, Carter, Shannon's list of questions is pretty much exactly the same nervousness I have. Use the word nervousness. That's exactly it. Like between the three of us, we
Zain: have, I'd say, pretty legitimate Alberta organizing experience. and i don't even know where to start carter because i'm stuck at the who like who organizes and we and this is kind of why i want to discuss this episode like what does this need to look like who organizes it spokesperson money how do you make room for the alberta ndp who will probably want to take the mantle on their own and become the default no on this question yeah perils of that opportunity of that how do you create the tent as shannon has talked about as wide as the person who's created the circumstances to allow us to get here jason kenney and someone like shannon phillips like like this is i
Zain: i'm really struggling with some of the basics here so like do you have a sense carter of your who and what like or are you as um are
Zain: you as like stuck in the mug i wouldn't want to speak for shannon at least as i as i am in terms of what the first move here and and how we do something like this and shannon's question of i think a really good one do we involve voices outside of this province is that a detriment or not um so to speak and
Carter: as like stuck
Carter: and then Let me just layer on one more piece.
Zain: All of the corporate interests that are interested in investor certainty to keep Alberta within Canada, not because they fucking love Alberta, but because they want their dollar to go further and want to have a frothy base to invest in as well. And there's just one element of it. So where's
Zain: your head at? Because these are the list of questions I wanted to go through with, let's just say, 25 minutes left, Carter. I'm
Carter: I'm exceptionally worried about creating a Jim Denning leadership style. What does that mean?
Zain: What does that mean?
Carter: The Jim Denning leadership style is he had every strategist, every big hitter in the party all lined up to work with him. They all worked with him, but none of the decisions got made. No actual action took place because everybody just kind of sat around and said, well, we're the leaders. We're going to be in charge, right? Right. We have. And I think that that's where the risk lies when you've got Monty Solberg, Jason Kenney, Shannon Phillips, Stephen Carter, you know, Thomas Lukasik, Zane Velji, even, you know, some people, you know, you're welcome.
Shannon: people, you know, you're
Carter: All of them that you could pull together. And that's even Michelle Rumpelgarden. Do you know what this is reminding
Zain: Do you know what this is reminding me of? Can I can I just interrupt you for a second? This is giving me PTSD of a meeting that you and I hosted, but you mainly. Do you remember this meeting, Carter, where we were self-congratulating about how many people we got from both sides of the spectrum to sit together to advocate for the Olympics?
Carter: second?
Carter: It was the exact same scenario. Oh, my God. It's giving me PTSD. Because
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
Zain: Oh,
Zain: my God. It's giving
SPEAKER_00: giving me PTSD.
SPEAKER_00: Because
Carter: we can get all of the leaders in the room,
Carter: but we're not going to get them at... It's not actually about getting the leaders in the room. It's about getting the 2,000 people in the room. And that's where I think you have to give you have to create something to do.
Carter: Right. That's what we did with the gun or with the with the Corey Hogan campaign. We created something for them to do. They were able to achieve something and they could achieve it in relative short order. If
Carter: If we start organizing organizers around
Carter: around
Carter: around a, you know, a second question that was an opposition of the Smith government, I think that the opposition to the Smith government gives us the coverage. Now, I don't think it should be an NDP initiative. I don't think it should be a Corey Hogan-led liberal initiative. Yeah, you should just take the confederation
Zain: Yeah, you should just take the confederation slogan and start a new campaign.
Carter: new campaign.
Carter: Exactly. Alberta is worth fighting for. Away we go. Canada, man. No. Yeah, I mean, come on. It's just not what we're looking for.
Zain: Canada, man.
Carter: So then who's the who?
Zain: So then who's the who? Who's the who? Like, this is what I'm stuck. Who is the who? Whoever wants to be the who. There's
Shannon: There's two
Carter: There's two things here. The people listening to this
Zain: two things here. The people listening to this podcast could be the who. I'm really struggling with that, Carter. You're killing me. Well,
Shannon: this podcast
Carter: podcast
Carter: podcast could
Shannon: could be the who. I'm really struggling
Shannon: Well, I think there's two things here. There's the air war and the no campaign. And how do you just have some degree of coordination, right, between wheeling out, you know, high profiled old ass Tories, right? And more progressive voices and other people who are maybe from more like the cultural or sports world or these kinds of people, right? Right. Yeah. So that's a that's an air piece that doesn't require a lot of resources.
SPEAKER_03: more
SPEAKER_03: people, right?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah. So
Shannon: resources. I mean, you could put money behind it, but I think you probably have to. But it's just simply, you know, an air cover for, you know, a broad range of voices who are saying, no, this is fucking stupid. Right. Separatism is a bad idea. And the business community can do what they want in there. But like there's kind of two problems. Number
SPEAKER_03: Number one, what
Shannon: what Carter identifies, which is the curse of the tall foreheads. right they're all sitting around uh just you know oh i'm smart oh i'm smart uh you know i i ran a campaign 20 years ago welcome to this podcast yeah welcome
Zain: welcome to this podcast yeah welcome shannon and that's
Shannon: and that's that that's gonna lead you nowhere fast so it's it's nice that they can have meetings in living rooms but they need to go out and do something to carter's point yeah um
Carter: point yeah um
Shannon: um but they they do need to there does need to be a level of coordination on people busting out with their various no arguments and and uh products you know like pushing into the public consciousness that's
Carter: but
Shannon: the first thing uh but uh the other piece that is important here is that those uh people are not everything right and uh you can't paint yourself into that corner uh you can't uh and you have to have have some organizing on the ground what that looks like and how that is funded even on the no campaign you have to uh you you have to that's the piece that i'm not sure how to find it's easy to coordinate error uh
Shannon: uh between between um you know disparate voices uh but uh if you're waiting how do you coordinate ground and and that'll be the piece that like is is tougher ideologically like across this sort of you know as yet notional broad uh coalition of people um as for the ndp i mean they should definitely go out there and and gin up their uh members and and figure out how to re-up their sign locations and all of those kinds of things and you know get people uh uh interested and excited uh but uh you know uh should they be leading it no because then automatically you end end up in the Hogan-esque construct of negative partisanship. 50-50 partisan jump ball frame. So
Carter: between between
Carter: if
SPEAKER_03: if you're waiting how
SPEAKER_03: and that'll
Zain: construct of negative
Zain: partisanship. 50-50 partisan jump ball frame. So my concern about this from a money perspective, and I'm going to stick with Shannon for a second, Carter, is that if status quo remains the same with all conditions, organizers, the challenges that you guys have both very astutely laid on the table, the NDP is the group with the names, the numbers, the money, and they kind of end up doing it. If everyone else is looking at someone else to lead it and we're creating this massive of Big Tent where we're looking for the first 2,000 and we're almost running a no campaign primary like we're very good at this right bunch of no campaigns or versions of a no campaign will sprout up and then they're going to compete with one another which is something I want to talk about Carter how do you win the no campaign primary then the NDP just becomes the party and the institution I shouldn't say the party the institution that exists that has time money resource capacity to fight this thing maybe not in the most strategic way because they're a political party on the other side of a question, but just by default. How much of a concern is that to you, Shannon?
Shannon: It's kind of a concern because what it does is it kind of closes off some of the persuadable voters kind of in the middle who are like, I don't know, I need more information, right? About what would this allow us to do, a yes vote in terms of leverage, what we might get out of the federal government, all these questions you hear from the public like when you when you look at polling on the separatism question right a lot of albertans are like oh we could threaten and then maybe we would not have to pay equalization anymore which of course none of that is real but um but that is the risk there and it also it does take the new democrat like certainly they have the infrastructure but it does also take them off of like separatism still isn't a lived experience this is another one of the things that i bang on all the time it's not as good as a health care question
SPEAKER_02: also take
SPEAKER_03: take
Zain: on all the time
Zain: time it's not as good as a health care question for them i would argue you that health care scandal
Shannon: health care scandal is not a lived experience sitting
Zain: experience sitting
Shannon: sitting in a fucking waiting room is a lived experience the economy is a lived experience paying your bills is a lived experience i uh being on a wait list for a knee surgery is a lived experience um not being able to get your kid in for their asthma meds re-up lived experience right closed ers across the uh rural alberta like those are the kinds of of of real things that then the new democrats are not talking about because Because you're not allowed to talk about everything when you're a political party, especially not now, right? If that was ever the case, it ain't the case in 2025. So there is a bit of a zero-sum thing happening here. And people are going to talk about the separatism thing anyway, right?
Zain: in a fucking
SPEAKER_03: case, it ain't the case in 2025.
Shannon: right? There might be ways for them to hold hands in the dark, reach their members, get them, you know, signing various ballot initiatives, that kind of stuff. um um you know talking to their individual uh identified supporters you know members sign locations um but i i just think there's dragons there for them to be i
Shannon: i mean obviously they need to be opposed uh but for them to be leading an initiative right because like there's going to be so many people out there who wouldn't necessarily hitch their wagon to it especially the rural voices that you kind of need for this thing um if
Shannon: if it's you know got an orange patina on on it
Zain: carter is is the role for the ndp just to drift like just to honestly see
Zain: where this is going be right on message and frequency but not lead the message because i i share shannon's concerns that like and i've articulated this in the past that if the ndp take up the mantle here by default this becomes like any other 50 50 partisan issue 60 40 set partisan issue and people just view it through that frame being like oh the messenger here is the ndp uh obviously i'm I'm not going to trust it, like,
Zain: like, sort of thing. How do you kind of give them a sense of their role and purpose in all of this? I
Carter: I love Shannon's phrasing of holding hands in the dark. I
Carter: I thought that that was exactly right. I mean, they can be aligned on this. Their volunteers can be involved in this. They should be involved in this. Their infrastructure and leadership should be focused on their primary objective, which is to build the party and get ready for the next election. I've never understood why they don't hold hands with the municipal campaigns that are running and make it so that they can't be seen, but they get a lot of benefit from it. They didn't do that in 2021 with the Gondek campaign, and I think it cost them later during the provincial election. um i think that this is a an
SPEAKER_00: I thought
Zain: thought that that
SPEAKER_00: that
Carter: ideal opportunity to kind of hold hands in the dark to steal uh shannon's phrasing and to make sure that they're still around however they can't be leading it and
Zain: they can't be leading
Carter: and and and if you're inviting all the people to the table then all the people get invited to the table um i just think that the easiest way to do this and i come back to to my earlier point getting all the tall foreheads into a single room and starting to build this thing isn't going to work you have to build this thing and then invite the tall foreheads to the organizational structure so i think that's the whole let's talk about
Zain: so i think that's the whole let's talk about this let's talk about that how do we build that thing and how do you make sure your version of it is
Zain: the thing right like because i i think this this concept of whether it's the opposition like a new question carter puts up or an actual no campaign tbd right like you're starting to sell me at least personally a bit more on your idea carter that That being said, let's just call it the no, right? Let's just call it the no sign for the simplicity. Let's just say that, right? Like, let's just say all things equal. The separatists get their question on the table. They're the affirmative. This is the no. How
Carter: for
Shannon: for the
Shannon: say that, right? Like,
Zain: do you win the no campaign primary? Which means that we're good at some things as progressives, which is starting 50 versions of the same thing. 10 people thinking that they should be the leader of that thing.
Zain: The other five people thinking they can't work with the other five people who are doing the other thing. How
Zain: How
Carter: How do
Zain: do you ensure you're, if we're looking for one fucking campaign, how do you ensure you win the no primary carter how would you suggest this you became the de facto yes campaign for the olympics so maybe you want to talk about that experience maybe you want to talk about other things how do you become the de facto campaign here that
Carter: you became the de facto
Carter: that was brutal experience to become the de facto yes campaign for there for you know in part because we were we were trying to bring in all the tall foreheads and all the tall foreheads told me especially to go get stuffed um you know like that was a that was a brutal campaign to try and bring everybody in and part Part of the reason was we didn't organize enough at the grassroots level so that all the tall foreheads had no choice but to join us. And I think that that – You were all reliant on
Zain: for there for you know in part because we
Zain: reliant on their money and their connections and all that sort of stuff. We
Carter: sort of stuff. We were overly reliant on their money. And they could hold it above us and say, dance, monkey, dance. And we would try and dance for the money when we should have been trying to organize at the grassroots level and then have that grassroots level motivate
Carter: motivate the money. And it did at the end, right? Right at the end, things started to flow and people started to put money in and the yes campaign. It became inevitable
Zain: It became inevitable that you were going to be that campaign. Right.
Carter: Right.
Carter: Right.
Carter: But you were fighting that
Zain: But you were fighting that primary halfway through as the general election, let me just use these terms, was going on. You were still trying to compete for the airspace, weren't you? Absolutely we were. This is also my fucking concern here.
Carter: were still trying
Carter: we were. This is also my fucking
Zain: We're going to have a bunch of us organizations competing to take the mantle when we all realize it needs to be a singular no and the other side is just going to be talking about one simple thing over and over again. But
Carter: But this is why I'm organized. This is why I want to organize a different question, because I think that the the objective you can you can create the team, the no team so much easier without having to go back and fight for it. And because the tall foreheads, you know what? They're not all going to get in a room. They're not all going to agree there. What you need to do is you need to build the structure, build the system, and then invite them in because you can't have them sitting on the sidelines, you know, just outside your tent pissing in the tent. You have to be able to bring them in and make them feel like they're a part of it. And at the time when you actually need them, when the no campaign is starting up, because the timeline on this that I see is three months to organize organizers, three months to collect signatures, 2026 is the actual campaign. So when you get to the actual campaign, you're going to have all the tall foreheads being invited in in January and February, and that's when you're going to need to do your primary fundraising. And by primary fundraising, I'm talking about a $3 to $5 million campaign on the no side.
Carter: Fuck me,
Zain: Fuck me, man. You're probably right. You're probably right.
Carter: You're probably right. You're
Carter: Well, and so you need those people in January. So how do you get them in January? We can try and organize them now, but I think it fails. I think that the only thing that makes you ready for that is that I've got an army of 3,000 people who are willing to go to war. Where's your army? You
Carter: don't have an army? Okay, get behind my fucking army.
Carter: That's how I'm
Zain: I'm
Carter: I'm
Zain: I'm envisioning it. Become inevitable just by growth. Shannon, any reflections on what Carter's throwing out on the table?
Carter: envisioning it. Become inevitable just by
Carter: Shannon,
Shannon: Shannon, any reflections on what Carter's
Shannon: I don't mind that strategy at all. uh and in the absence of a of a different one i'm willing to follow it uh but um this
Zain: this is called the carter submission tactic which he uses on most campaigns that he's on he's like come up with a better one but isn't that your way carter like it just doesn't drop you shannon i think there's something interesting about what carter said here which is like you are also like shannon mentioned earlier on this episode you're also open to having your mind changed if someone comes up with a better idea than what you've put out there aren't you carter oh
Shannon: which he uses on
SPEAKER_01: on
Shannon: yeah yeah
Shannon: yeah and that's how i of feel about it too right like you got to start something and then obviously you're going to iterate as you go along uh on but you have to start with some kind of architecture right and like you need your three periods of action right and and carter's identified them he's beginning his middle and his end uh every campaign has that and as long as you've got some view of that you know like having one strategy is better than having 10 uh and so good i do think there's a missing piece here though and that's the air cover and there does need to be some coordination of air cover through the organizing period otherwise it gets left to the lunatics right uh so that it needs to be filled in explain that a bit more
SPEAKER_00: carter's identified them
Zain: uh so
Zain: filled in explain that a bit more what do you want to do okay well
Shannon: do you want to do okay well
Shannon: well i mean like the voices need to be moving out right uh and and i always you know i'm a bad politician and then i like to go back and fight the last war uh but uh when you look at what happened with the cpp right yeah you had this endless stream of like sometimes it was the fucking economist party right and it was like Oh, but the liability or whatever. And that appealed to a certain audience. Sometimes it was the New Democrats. Sometimes it was, you know, retirees and town halls and some of that bubbling up from the grassroots and, you know, people coming to town halls to come, you know, share their aches and pains. But also, you know, they're quite highly sophisticated views as voters on their retirement security because people care about that, as it turns out. But there was a drumbeat of
Carter: yeah you had
Shannon: of air cover, right,
Shannon: around that topic. And that also helped make the government back down, right?
SPEAKER_03: around that topic.
Shannon: right? The government did a big splashy thing on, you know, we're going to spend all this money advertising a, you know, possible Alberta pension plan that, you
Shannon: you know, became the lightning rod. And then there was a constant stream of voices. That's the piece that does need to be somewhat coordinated, given the stakes of this thing. It also will mean that if people try to do something stupid by people, I mean, Ottawa, that, you know, or other voices, you know, like Big Ontario comes wandering in, right, to the chat, probably not helpful in talking to Albertans, right? Right. Like that is a risk, you know, that you end up with it becoming, you know, and that, you know, gins up Albertans like, fuck off. I don't want to hear from you, Central Canada. Right. Even if I'm persuadable one way or the other, I'm not interested in being hectored by someone outside of this province. So you do need those the identification of those of those trusted Alberta voices across and not just political. That's the other risk with us strategy types is
Carter: So you
SPEAKER_03: types is
Shannon: is we think of, because it's a political question, has to be delivered by political people. It does not. And ideally, it isn't. It's messages delivered by a broad range of voices that are then more trusted. That's really, really important. And so I would say yes to what Carter has laid out. And there needs to be some. And who is doing that to your original hesitation saying, I don't know.
Shannon: um who
Shannon: who is coordinating that but there does need to be at
Shannon: at least some locus
Shannon: locus of activity going phoning people up and saying i need you to do x or y and i need you to step out on this
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Zain: Carter, this is such a good point around what the message in the air cover is. And I maybe want to end here. but i still want to push you a bit more who carter
Zain: who who
Zain: is this who like is it like is it ultimately you like is it someone like you is it is it a politician type like do we need and the reason i ask is like i'm trying to i'm trying to imagine this campaign does it need a figurehead maybe that's another way of answering this does it need a candidate of some kind uh does it need a person does it need a group of at least two to three people yeah not the whole tall four heads But like, I
Zain: I want to drill down a bit on the who, because Shannon's thing about the message is also really important. But we've talked about the messenger and the messengers plural, even if it's one to three of them also being as important. What do you think? Well,
Carter: I think that the messengers are super important. I mean, we chose on the Yes campaign for the Olympics, we chose messengers that were kind of outside of me, right? We chose messengers that were, you know, kind of every man, if you will, or every woman. And I think we still need the every man or every woman's type of messengers. But I think that one of the things that we were missing was
Zain: messengers
Carter: was that tall forehead that everybody could go, you know, and rally behind and they could see that there was a strategy and see that there was a plan. I'm not sure who it's going to be, Shane. I mean, I think that you do need one tall forehead and you need some grassroots. And I think that to Shannon's point, then you also need the Ken Bozenkuls and the Monty Solbergs and the, you know, the Jason Kennys. The conservatives of that stripe. Plus everybody else on the left to stand up and take on spokesperson roles and take your calls. You know, I can see this being one of those things where you're having a daily huddle with true organization people, people who are organizing, and a weekly messaging meeting with
Zain: grassroots.
Zain: The conservatives of that stripe. Plus everybody
SPEAKER_00: and a weekly
Carter: with people who are going to go out and do media or
Carter: or who will write op-eds or who will write, you know, the
Carter: various pieces of this. Uh, so, you know, I can see, I
Carter: can see
Carter: that's how you start to bring in the tall foreheads as you get them into the, into the messaging structure relatively early.
Shannon: Or communicate on TikTok and reels because, you know, it's
Zain: communicate on TikTok
Carter: TikTok
Zain: TikTok
Carter: it's
Zain: it's
Carter: it's 2025.
Shannon: Okay.
Carter: Okay.
Shannon: Okay. Well, I hurt
Carter: Okay. Well, I hurt my feelings a little bit right there. Hey,
Zain: Hey, Carter, I have a question. I'm going to jump into our over under, which is just one question that's been nagging at me in a moment here, but I do want to get your take on, uh, on
Zain: messaging. So, and, and both of you on this, actually, if we can go a few more minutes.
Zain: what's really been bothering me is going back to the brexit example the
Zain: the and lucasic said this today too the reasons or when he was doing his media rounds and not to go after him i think it's noble what he's trying to do but i think it points to the the potential pitfalls which is he was listing 20 cogent reasons why we shouldn't separate and then said the list goes on and on and
SPEAKER_01: and then said
Zain: the no side the leave side of brexit had a fucking bus that said you get half a billion dollars back for healthcare. That
Zain: That was it. There
Zain: was other xenophobic shit underneath there, but that was it. My concern is our proclivities are to give everyone a laundry list of the list goes on and on.
Zain: Literally, we run the list goes on and on campaign.
Zain: And we have different factions. And I think inevitably what ends up happening, we've got different factions talking about different things and everyone, and we all think it's working together, right? We all think they're They're actually connective and compounding when, in fact, they're dividing. They're actually they divide attention. They don't compound attention. They don't actually add, so to speak, into the tally count of the no campaign. How big of a concern is that for you? And how do we fight back against it when if the if the separatists are smart, they will go with a singular, even non-separatist benefit that one gets and use that as the basis of their campaign?
Carter: Well, I mean, Shannon's already basically alluded to what it's going to be. it's going to be we get to keep our money yeah
Zain: yeah right right the money the equalization whatever that is right yeah which
Carter: yeah
Carter: right the money the equalization whatever that
Carter: yeah which is fucking hilarious um but also persuasive also
Shannon: also persuasive also
Shannon: also
Carter: also
Shannon: also persuasive because it's a lie but it's persuasive yeah we've been fed the same lie as this fucking client
Carter: also persuasive because it's a lie
Zain: but it's persuasive
Carter: we've
Zain: we've been fed the same lie as
Carter: as this
Zain: this fucking client
Carter: client
Carter: client right yeah
Carter: yeah so
Zain: so it's well embedded and it's one that even the modern conservative voter believes that alberta's getting fucked like you're getting fucked but you get to keep more of it is is persuasive so i agree Shannon's put it out there. They're going to do a version of that.
Zain: We can't do a the list goes on campaign.
Carter: No, we have to make sure that we figure out. But I also want to do polling and actually know what the fucking answer is. I don't want to just wing it off on a podcast and say, but this
Zain: podcast
Carter: this is where- That's
Zain: That's what this podcast is for, Carter. That's what- Instinct. But I think
Carter: That's what this podcast is for,
Carter: Instinct. But I think we get some time. Yeah,
Carter: Yeah, I know you do. I don't think it needs to be done tomorrow. I think that by January, you need to have a super strong sense of what that one thing is that keeps us in Canada. and that one thing may be that you know like i
Zain: Yeah, I know you do. I don't
Zain: don't
Carter: don't
Zain: don't know
Carter: know i don't want to get ahead no
Zain: i don't want to get ahead no
Zain: no no you don't but i also think what we should be humbled with what the answer could be because
Zain: i think between between us we might actually be like it's some high-minded politically entrenched narrative and it might be a selfish motivation that we need to be campaigning on just like the other side will shannon i'll let you jump in sorry well
Shannon: the things that you want to go out and pull on and carter's absolutely correct that you shouldn't be doing this uh you know with like gut and feel you should actually have some data behind it uh is go out and try to poke around in both qualitative and quantitative on what is going to be taken away from you if you vote yes yeah
Carter: yeah right
Shannon: right that's the that's the formulation right if if if the other guys are out there saying you're going to get this fantasy fucking ride a unicorn to work thing um then we need to have the uh here is what is going to come out of your pocketbook or what it's going to cost you what is going to to be taken away from you uh
Shannon: uh and that you know again to the negative partisanship thing that is what will work if you're saying no because something's going to get taken away from me that's you know two negative statements and that's how it needs to be framed um but uh uh yeah you have a bit of time not a whole lot of time uh but it needs to be very clear you know like i'm not not going to use the word kitchen table because that's really fucking annoying framing uh but uh it does need to be something that people can live that they
SPEAKER_03: thing that is
SPEAKER_03: annoying framing
SPEAKER_03: that they
Shannon: they can feel that they can like the reason they caught uh chose nhs in the uk is because you know after like whatever it was a decade or more of tory rule the health system was in a fucking shambles totally
Zain: totally uh and so
Shannon: uh and so you know there there There might be something there, or it might be an economic argument. My gut is it's an economic argument, especially if WTI continues to soften through the fall
Shannon: and the global economy softens, not to get too, you know, like policy heavy here. No, I think this is really important, though.
Zain: policy heavy here. No, I think this is really important, though.
Shannon: But that, you know, we're going to need to see around that corner, and that is both going to upset people and make them more worried about the federal government and make them feel more uh insecure but there might be uh some way for opportunity there for the no campaign no
Zain: i i think this is i love that answer because i think to to my point of like being humbled we we
Zain: the no side doesn't have with 50 reasons why not to separate we have zero right now which is why neither of you rightfully so are willing to be like here's our issue or we've got or or saying we've got 50 of them like in fact if you've got 50 you got zero and and that's where where we kind of find ourselves right now which is like they may have their issue they already seem to be
Zain: be able to and i don't know if they're doing a great job of crystallizing and messaging it but
Zain: but they didn't already have the seeds of it i'm not sure we have the seeds of the defense as much as as much as optionality is there that's actually a crippling problem in some way i
Shannon: i don't know zane i mean if you look at the liberal uh vote in the last federal campaign uh
Shannon: uh you do see it uh increased even in rural areas across canada but even in alberta i mean some of that was just mowing the ndp's lawn right but there uh i and that was a wrap yourself in the flag vote
Shannon: vote transfer and uh you know if you're voting liberal in like lesbridge county like you are making a choice that's a real choice you just made
SPEAKER_03: real choice you just made
SPEAKER_03: made
Shannon: made
SPEAKER_03: made um
Shannon: um and uh and people did yeah right so there's there's something there in the wrapping yourself in the flag uh but uh it's not clear to me if that moment is going going to move on right it might come it might come back up a little bit if if trump comes here in kananaskis and you know lights himself on fire and everybody you know like freaks out again uh that's a moment uh we'll see how how that persists but there there was a kernel of of that uh even in rural alberta rural saskatchewan uh rural ontario it happened i
SPEAKER_03: it might come it might come back up a little
Zain: love this we're going to leave that segment there moving on to our over under and our lightning round this is of course shannon uh welcome this is where carter refuses to answer the questions and is either tired or lazy, so gives his worst answers. So it's really a moment for you to shine.
Zain: Is that fair, Carter? Is that a fair assessment?
Carter: It's not unfair.
Zain: I'm not going to give you a list of questions, because I actually want to throw something at you guys that's been gnawing at me, which is should
Zain: we be mocking the separatists?
Zain: And here, they are so... And I think there is a seriousness to this question, because they're so memeable, they look like characters at least from the presentation of what we've seen thus far, and And there is a sense of like, we should be ensuring that these folks get no air whatsoever. There's a ridiculousness to this. There's a mocking. There's just almost a desire to mock. That all being said, we have seen that when you mock groups like this, they actually come out even stronger. You're actually building them, giving more airtime. So in the heart of it, it's actually, it's an acute sort of like, what should we be doing with our hands? Anchorman question. But there's also a strategy element to it. it like how would you take this group that is so memeable that is so able to go viral to show their ridiculousness carter
Zain: carter would you lean into that or are you saying stay away from that you're actually playing to use a term we've used a few times on today's pod are we playing with fire i'll let you go first i think we're
Carter: first i think we're i think we're playing with fire i think that you don't mock the uh the mockable sometimes when we're when things get serious i think uh that's one of the inclinations of the brexit uh idea right it was it was to mock it and this is deathly serious so i think you'd be deathly serious this is also part of the reason why i want to fight on a different question to start with um it keeps us out of their field and keeps them us out of making fun of them or minimizing them we don't want to amplify them by accident what
Zain: think that
SPEAKER_02: we don't want
Carter: what we want to do is we want to generate a team of people as fast as possible. And those two things are kind of, you know, they come around your mocking question. Do you really want to mock these people when you could accidentally supply them with a lot more juice? I mean, we mock the anti-vaxxers. We did. Some of us did.
Zain: We did.
Zain: of us did. Like, culturally, we did. 500 of them have
Carter: culturally, we did.
Carter: 500 of them have measles right now. You know, but it's not a strong play to mock. The strong play is to get ready.
Zain: Shannon, what do you think?
Shannon: Well, it depends on who we is because there's a whole bunch of different folks out there on the landscape, you
Shannon: you know, communicating various messages, right? And some of these, you know, people who are online influencers have a far larger breadth and depth of audience than, you know, we will ever have, right? Yeah, sure. And so I think, you know, leave them to it. But serious people should say serious things. things condescension and sarcasm never translates uh when you and and you know a lot of the rules of political communication have changed uh over the last 25 years that i've been in this business but that one hasn't serious people should remain serious uh and uh the last thing you need is for serious people uh to become the meme themselves uh
Carter: Yeah, sure. And so I
Shannon: so you know let people who are already in that world let them do it they're gonna do it right there's gonna be enough you know folks out there who are going to be like, look at this guy, right? Right, right, right, right. Let him go, right? You don't need to participate in that. You are not that, right? Political communicators are something different. And if we want our institutions to work, and not to get too high-minded about it, but if we want, you know, all of this rules-based order of, you know, political institutions and democracy to work, then we have to take ourselves seriously. And so I would say that keep it serious because it is. uh stay out of the meme wars you know don't become that brantford boomer or whatever that thing was that the conservatives were riding the horse of in the in the uh uh in the federal campaign um and other people will do the work for you on that we're
Zain: Right, right, right, right.
Zain: gonna leave it there that's a wrap on episode 1870 of the strategist my name is zane velge who with me as always shannon phillips stephen carter and we shall see you next time cast
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