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Annalise: to The Strategist episode 1867. I'm your host Annalise Klingbeil and with you as always Stephen Carter and Zane Velgey.
Zain: Yo, yo, yo. Hey Zane. Good evening guys.
Annalise: Hey Zane. Good evening guys.
Zain: Well Carter and I have seen each other already. Yeah, what happened?
Annalise: Yeah, what happened? Stephen, what were you doing at lunchtime today?
Carter: happened?
Carter: Stephen, what were
Carter: Well, we went and did the AFP, the Association of Fundraising Professionals Compass Conference. We did it as a freebie because, you know, we're generous people. And it was a room full of fundraisers for great cause. Carter couldn't
SPEAKER_08: it was a room full of fundraisers
Zain: cause. Carter couldn't negotiate a rate that was high enough. That doesn't
Carter: high
Carter: high enough.
Annalise: That doesn't
Carter: doesn't sound like Stephen Carter.
Annalise: doesn't sound like Stephen Carter.
Zain: Okay, let me let you in on a secret. If you don't meet Carter's rate, he will do it for free and bring his friends along.
Annalise: that's that's
Carter: that's
Carter: that's
Carter: steven carter robert is that
Annalise: steven carter robert is
Zain: is
Annalise: is
Carter: that what happened pretty much was but no no i mean so
Annalise: that what
Carter: i was blackmailed i literally got emails i was blackmailed my daughter asked me to do it and which one i didn't maddie maddie if i didn't do uh if i didn't do it she was going to tell everybody's secrets about me so i felt i had no choice and then i thought you know what let's Let's drag along all the strategists. So I invited Corey and Zane and not you, Annalise. I feel bad about it now.
Zain: was blackmailed i literally got emails i
SPEAKER_01: which one i didn't
SPEAKER_01: didn't do uh
Annalise: I feel bad
Annalise: now.
Carter: Corey's a big deal. Corey
Annalise: Corey's a big deal. Corey
Carter: is kind of a big deal and we all three agreed to do it. And guess who didn't bother to show up? Corey
Annalise: Corey Hogan. That guy. What else is he doing with his time? How did it go? I saw a photo of you asleep, possibly on a couch. No,
Carter: guy. What else is he doing with
Carter: No,
Carter: No, I had a little lie down because I felt like I was in a therapist's office is talking about the hypocrisy of Danielle Smith's position with the federal government versus her position with municipalities, where she says basically to the feds, stay out of our business, and to municipalities, she's like, I'm all up in your business. So you laid down on a couch to make this point?
Annalise: point? Well, he was in his happy
Zain: Well, he was in his happy place. I don't know if you know that, but what he just described right there. I'll tell you something. He was trying to hide an erection from everyone, just trying to make sure that they wouldn't be able to notice that it was the topic that gets them the most excited. Other than cursing Corey's chances of cabinet, which, by the way, do you want to talk about which ministry he will get and put it on the record here?
Carter: I
Annalise: I don't
Carter: don't
Annalise: don't know if you know that,
SPEAKER_02: that, but what he just described
Carter: described
Annalise: described
Carter: described
Carter: I'll
Annalise: I'll tell you something. He was trying to hide an erection
Carter: erection from
Carter: Me? No, I'm afraid I don't, because I don't want to curse his chances of getting cabinet. But I did do that during the live show. You did? I did do that during the live show. People got a lot
Zain: afraid
Annalise: afraid
Zain: afraid
Annalise: afraid
Zain: afraid
Zain: I did do that
Zain: You
Annalise: You did? I
Zain: I did do
Annalise: do that during the live show. People got a lot for the $0 speaking fee that they paid you. I'll tell
Carter: tell you, we
Carter: we did a great job, Zane, didn't we? Didn't we do a great job? up if
Zain: if if they go to invite carter to speak.com they can put in their zero dollar bid of having carter come to whatever event you are hosting your
Zain: your speaker fee is what carter let's just say ten thousand dollars and if you can't meet that zero you need to go to invite carter to speak.com okay first
Carter: you need
Carter: .com okay first of all my speaking fee is six thousand five hundred dollars uh that's
Zain: that's actually not nearly enough that's how how am i how am i how am i charging more in my head for my speaking fee I
Carter: how am i how am i
Carter: I mean, here's the trick with speaking fees. In my
Zain: fees. In my
Carter: my head. Here's the trick with speaking fees. Occasionally, someone has to pay it,
Carter: right? Then it's a speaking fee. Otherwise, it's just a number on a page. So, you know, we can make it $10,000. Is that
Zain: right? Then it's
SPEAKER_02: can
Zain: can make it $10,000. Is that how you view money?
Zain: That's
SPEAKER_02: That's
Carter: That's how
SPEAKER_02: how
Carter: how Stephen Carter operates. Exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02: Carter
Annalise: Carter operates.
Carter: Exactly. Oh, God, what are we doing with that, Corey?
Zain: Oh, God, what are we doing with that, Corey? We need someone with financial credibility on the podcast. Well, you can hire the
Carter: on the podcast. Well, you can hire the strategist for only $3,500, which I think is pretty great.
Zain: which I think is pretty great. You get Carter for $6,500 or
Zain: or all of us for $3,500. Or
Zain: Or you could get Carter for free at invitecartertospeak.com. Seriously, when
Carter: .com. Seriously, when we started up the podcast, I was charging like more than all three of us together.
Carter: And now look
Annalise: And now look at you now. One of you is an MP. Carter's charging $0. And Zane's doing good. And Zane's still doing good. I know my own show. Whatever this
Zain: still doing good. I know my own show. Whatever this is, that's it.
Zain: Please, please come visit. Come on, come on. Okay,
Annalise: Okay, guys. Guys, we've got things to talk about. In addition to your lunchtime, is there a live recording? Can people hear? This is a good question. Or the
Carter: hear? This is a good question. Or the $0 is exclusive.
Annalise: the $0 is exclusive.
Annalise: exclusive. $0 did not
Carter: $0 did not get it recorded. Well,
Annalise: Well,
Annalise: Well, you guys were doing that. Other things were happening today. Our Prime Minister was meeting the President. Our Premier was speaking. There were things going on. So let's get into it. Before we do that, before
Carter: into it. Before we do that, before we get into it, can we just cover off for the video watchers? You are, in fact, in a closet. I
Annalise: we get
Annalise: it, can we just cover
Annalise: I am in a closet. I don't even know that. You really care that I'm in a closet. If quiet, if good sound quality, Corey Hogan would be happy. It's
Carter: I am in a closet. I don't even know that. You really care
Zain: happy. It's not good sound quality. I bet it's from what I'm hearing. It's fine. It's fine. Corey Hogan will not be. There's
Annalise: It's fine. Corey Hogan will not be. There's no baby crying in the background. What's wrong with my closet, Stephen Carter? We
Carter: Carter? We liked the baby crying in the background last time. That was cute. Says a man who does not like
Annalise: Says a man who does not like babies in public settings. I
Carter: I don't like babies in public settings, but I do like babies in general.
Annalise: but
Annalise: Yeah. Yeah. You do like babies in general. You like my baby. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm in a closet and it's quiet and, uh, we're going to talk about Trump and Carney. Anything else you want to lay on the table, Carter, before we get into it? No,
Carter: baby.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
Carter: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah. No, I'm,
Carter: No, I wanted to make sure the closet thing got out. Okay. Yeah.
Annalise: Okay. Yeah. I'm in a closet. You can, if you're listening to this, there will be video you can watch. You can see the white walls behind me and, um, yeah,
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
SPEAKER_00: that's,
Annalise: that's, that's where I am.
Annalise: Um, okay guys, let's talk about it. Trump was first segment, Trump and Carney had Their first meeting today,
Annalise: their first in-person meeting at the White House. For two months, Carney has framed himself as the best person to take on Trump.
Annalise: Tuesday's talk is being called the highest stakes discussion ever between a U.S. president and Canadian prime minister. So, Stephen
Annalise: Stephen Carter, how
Annalise: did Carney do? If you were to give him a grade for today's performance with Trump, what would you give him?
Carter: I would give him, what's the scale of the grade? Grade like letter grade. Yeah. But
Annalise: Grade like letter grade. Yeah. But pluses, minuses. F is the lowest. Typically, a plus is a pass. Nope.
Carter: is a pass.
Carter: That's
Zain: That's
Annalise: That's
Carter: That's not a letter. British school
Zain: That's not a letter. British school system. That's very, very nice. Not a letter. He did a
Carter: very, very nice. Not a letter. He did a fine job. He did a pass. And I'll tell you why he did a pass. He didn't want Bert still laughing at the inane comments coming out of the president's mouth. He actually behaved himself like it was some sort of real honest to God conversation with someone who wasn't a lunatic. And the fact that he was able to behave that way, I think was extremely impressive under the circumstances. So I give him a pass. So
Annalise: So a pass and extremely impressive. Zane, what's your letter, Grace?
Zain: So Carter's either become a tough grader or he's completely full of shit and hasn't seen this presser. Which one is it, Carter? I've seen the
Carter: is it, Carter? I've seen the presser. I've seen the presser. No, you fucking have not. I've seen the presser. Not a pass. I've seen the presser. I've seen the, I saw the interviews. I saw the interviews after. I spent a lot of time researching that. And you give it a pass. Listen,
Zain: I've seen the presser. No, you fucking have not. I've seen the presser. Not a pass. I've seen the presser. I've
Zain: give it a pass. Listen, yeah, and you gave it a pass. Okay,
Annalise: Okay,
Carter: Okay,
Annalise: Okay,
Carter: Okay, Zayn,
Annalise: Zayn, what?
Carter: what? She gave me... It's an A, Annalise. She's the one who came up with it.
Zain: She's the one who came up with it. It's an A. This is a very good job by
Annalise: It's
Carter: It's
Carter: A.
Annalise: This
Carter: This is a
Zain: by Mark Carter. Why? Tell us. I think there's a number of reasons. I think it starts with last week at the press conference last week, which leads into the bilateral today. The press conference set the stakes and the expectations perfectly, saying that don't expect results. And the bilateral, for a number of reasons, where he asserted
Annalise: by Mark
Annalise: Carter. Why? Tell us.
Zain: asserted defense of Canadian sovereignty multiple times, Had a great line that looked extremely organic after Trump talked about real estate and being a real estate developer. So great research on his office's part, great execution on his part, saying, Mr. President, you know, like real estate. It didn't seem like a canned line where he brought up real estate. He said, you know, you mentioned real estate. White House isn't for sale. Buckingham Palace isn't for sale. Canada isn't for sale. He was funny, which I think really mattered when Trump was teasing before Carney could say a word, where Trump was talking for like 15 minutes in monologue saying there's a big announcement Friday. Carney's like, I'm on the edge of my seat. I care more about that than this. But
SPEAKER_01: more about that
SPEAKER_01: it'll be one of the most important announcements that have been made in
SPEAKER_01: many years about a certain subject. Very important subject. So you'll all be here. Mark, would you like to say a few words? Thank
Zain: Thank you, Mr. President. I'm on the edge of my seat.
Zain: i thought that was extremely funny when trump said never say never cardi just looked at the cameras like it was an episode of the office and was like it was like never yeah that's not gonna happen um and he picked his spots right like he picked his spots one of the one of the most important things in politics we talk about whether it be longitudinally over months or years or in the moment of a 25 minute bilateral is when do you swing and when do you not swing and
SPEAKER_08: episode of the office and was like it
Zain: if the The criticism that Carney is left with that he didn't swing enough, but the swings that he made made contact, then I'm more than happy to take that criticism if I'm Mark Carney. The swings that he made every single time, the ball hit wood, and he at least got on base, Carter. Sounds like a pass
Carter: Sounds like a pass to me.
Zain: Sounds like an A to me, Carter. Sounds like Carter has not seen this. How would you have coached him or done this better? I thought this was a clear articulation of our priorities. What do you think are the other options besides
Carter: A to me, Carter. Sounds like Carter has
Annalise: articulation of our priorities. What do you think are the other options besides pass?
Zain: besides pass?
Annalise: Pick a letter, Carter. Pick
Zain: Pick a fucking letter, Carter. this was this was i think this was a i give him 96 so i'm hard on mark uh and so i i i i'm giving him an a i was actually expected to be did you watch this live carter you and i were texting and i was like fuck this is i was like on the edge of my seat being like i hope he doesn't fuck this up he not only didn't fuck it up i thought he nailed it yeah and
Annalise: a fucking letter, Carter. this
Annalise: give
Carter: give him 96 so i'm hard
Carter: i i i
Zain: and and i the the and the reason i mentioned that is that a lot of us were tuned in live because the opportunity to fuck it up with the volatility that is Trump. Because let's be clear, a fuck up in this situation is not necessarily Mark Carney, a trained corporate professional, a trained public intellectual, central banker saying the wrong thing. A fuck up in this situation is a wrong look, is a wrong smirk, is nodding your head at the wrong time, right? Because Trump would say something normal and then say something inane and then look over to Carney. And you've got to be extremely careful in the moment that you're not nodding along Well, Donald Trump is saying Christopher Freeland fucking sucked at her job or
SPEAKER_02: sucked
Carter: sucked at her job or
Carter: or
Zain: or whatever. Right. And there was a few moments. And one thing Carney does not have is a poker face. Like we've seen that throughout his like the last six months. Mark Carney does not have a poker face. But man, did he put one on today? And he was close to cracking a few times and sometimes couldn't help himself. But none of it was penalty worthy. None of it was disastrous enough. But the stakes were extremely high. And I think he did really well. Okay,
Annalise: Okay, so you say an A. Carter, did you say 96%? Did you give it a percentage? Okay, so that's like an A+, is it not? It's
Zain: percentage?
Carter: percentage?
Zain: percentage?
Carter: percentage? Okay,
Carter: so that's
Carter: +, is
Carter: It's like a pass. It's above a
Annalise: above a
Annalise: a pass? A pass is 50%. It's a very British system.
Carter: 50%.
Carter: It's a very British system. You can get a 96%, but you're just the same. The pass is you either pass or you fail. You
Annalise: You can get a 96%,
Zain: 96%,
Annalise: 96%,
Zain: 96%, but you're just
Annalise: just
Zain: just
Annalise: just
Zain: just the same.
Carter: You
Annalise: You think he passed? He did what he needed to do?
Carter: think he passed? He
Carter: Yeah, I mean, you guys are, I mean, all the things that Zane said, I mean, I really love the never going, you know, like the never, never, never. Literally
Zain: Literally like it was an office episode. Just being like, I'm going to just look directly into the camera like Jim and be like, yeah, no, that's not going to happen. Like Michael was speaking and Jim was like, oh my God, like that's just, so just so you guys know, like it's going to be never. Yeah. I thought it was very- And the
Carter: office episode.
SPEAKER_08: episode.
Carter: episode.
SPEAKER_08: episode.
Carter: episode.
Carter: Just being
SPEAKER_08: being
Carter: and be like,
Carter: not going to happen. Like Michael
Carter: Yeah. I thought it was very- And the question was asked of him in the press conference if he had asked Donald Trump during the private meeting to stop referring to Canada as the 51st state. and you know he one of the things i like about mark carney is he's sharp also
Carter: also with the media a little bit right and basically he said yes i did say that and then they said well what were the exact words and his and he was like you know what you just
Zain: were the exact words
Annalise: just said yeah yeah
Carter: yeah like ask me a follow like do you have a follow-up no okay let's go to the next person and then someone finally realized hey we didn't get an answer to actually what he said um so you know i think that mark carney uh is in control of his own situations. That may come off a little bit assholery when it comes to the actual communications with the media, but I think it's really solid because he's giving solid answers. He's giving kind of yes, no, direct answers that are hard to misinterpret and difficult to take and rebelize, turn into a true North Quota or something along those lines. There's
Zain: a true North
Zain: those lines. There's something here, and at least I'd probably get your expertise on this than mine, But I'll give you I'll give you guys a premise to chew on, which is unlike
Carter: premise to
Zain: what maybe modern day media training would say, which is take the key message, package it and take it. It seems like he's almost thinking about the answer in the moment, which is really a high wire act. Unless you're someone like him who has run a lot of his campaign. And I'm not saying he's devoid of politics. That's not what I'm saying at all. But run a lot of his campaign based on I'm
Zain: just going to make the call.
Annalise: What
Zain: What I feel is the policy. What I intellectualize is the outcome. We're also hearing about this as it relates to everything from his priority set, even including that press conference last week, talking to some high-level liberals. Their answer was, yeah, thanks for the congrats, man, but that was just Mark Carney, right? Like, thanks, but, like, he literally has an agenda of what he wants to do. He's telling you in his own words. And I feel like he treats the media in the same way. It's not over-packaged. It's not over-rehearsed. It's very much kind of, I'm thinking in the moment because I care. And it's, you know, Carter, like when you're free to kind of just respond and the stakes are relatively low, it feels like that's what he's doing. I think it could be a bit gaffe prone when like he's got a bit of a track record and there's things in motion and timelines aren't being met and all that sort of stuff happens. But for the moment, it's not only refreshing, it's novel. And I want to make sure we separate what's politically refreshing, but what's also also politically novel, because we've had 10 years of Trudeau and we've had a half a decade of Polyev, two very different communication styles from Carney. So you
Annalise: So you think it works in the media? Yeah, I think
Zain: media?
Zain: think it works for now. And I think ultimately, we'll end up happening just like in politics, where your circle of trusted advisors starts big, and then ends narrow, you you start becoming more risk mitigating, and you start becoming more defensive, offensive, as your track record builds, because you're trying to protect something behind you, not just run free with what's ahead of you. And he's got the flexibility to say no to things, to do one word answers, to do all these novel communication things, and lay out priorities. But at some point, they're going to be late on something, they're going to poorly execute something, it just happens. It's not because Mark Carney's not good at what he does. It's because it's government. And it's a slow moving machine, regardless of your ambitions as a prime I minister as a singular dude or person. And so I suspect a more defensive communication style that's going to come. But I think right now what we're seeing is the right strategy combined with novelty. Carter,
Annalise: Carter, do you think it works? Because that was interesting to me about today was so much focus, obviously, on the meeting with Trump, but then the speaking to the media after. And to Zane's point, it is new. It is novel. It's a very different way of interacting and speaking to media than we've seen for the past decades.
Carter: Yeah, I mean, I think that it does work. And And again, I'll take Zane's point that it is novel. That's an excellent point. It is new. It is unique. But more than that, I think it is effective as well. I mean, so much of media relations right now is being succinct, being able to get your message across in as few words as possible. And with
Carter: that, I'll stop.
Carter: Look
Annalise: at you. Look at you demonstrating what you're saying. What about, and Zane, you brought it up, but the line, and I saw this, it looked like it was getting a lot of coverage, the real estate one.
Annalise: Like, we're in the White House right now, not for sale. Talk to the owners of Canada, blah, blah, blah. Do you guys think that's, and Zane, maybe you can speak to this if you know Mark super well, but like, is that the sort of thing that you have a lot of? The best, actually. So well. And
SPEAKER_00: Talk to
Zain: lot of? The best, actually. So
Zain: And I'm going to just get, just so everyone can know him as well, here's his phone number, plus 44. Ha ha. Ah, okay,
Carter: get, just so everyone
Zain: okay, I should keep the rest. Beep that, beep the rest in.
Annalise: Beep that, beep the rest in.
Annalise: Like, do you, there's
Annalise: there's certain politicians or certain people that you would practice those lines with beforehand, you know, but then it's that delivery of trying to not make it rehearsed. To your point, the way he brought it up, the way he said it, it just seemed natural. People liked it. Is that, is there a lot of, a
SPEAKER_00: the way he
Annalise: lot of strategy and prep that goes into that one line and wanting that to be in the leads and in the headlines? I
Zain: think yes and yes. I'd be surprised if there was no prep on it. I think something like that starts with the seed of an answer. And of course, there's multiple ways of doing it. You saw that in the press conference afterwards where he was at the Canadian embassy answering a similar question. He asserted that in a much more aggressive, assertive tone to create a secondary clip of it. But but in the moment when you're sitting beside the president in and being hosted, he was also Canadian polite and he used something. And I think, you know, what really gave him the
Zain: the go ahead to keep going was that in within the first second of saying it, Trump agreed. And you could almost see that Trump, like the respect kind of seemed real. I'm really curious of Carter. It seemed like it was almost like not even respect is like, I'm kind of jealous of this guy. I don't want to disappoint this guy. Like Trump is a child, right? And Mark Carney is like a serious person. Like he's actually what a successful business person looks like in some ways, right? Like read Lucky Loser, Trump is not a successful business person. He's not. You know, he was handed an opportunity and he squandered
Carter: curious of Carter.
Carter: And Mark
SPEAKER_01: Mark
Zain: squandered that opportunity and everything else since then has been made out of fairy dust and the apprentice to create this image of Donald Trump is the short version of it. But there's a level of respect that Trump had to him where he agreed within the first couple of seconds, which allowed Carney to kind of very loosely kind of continue that analogy. I've been in situations where even if the politician is a masterful communicator, masterful communications and organic communications are two very different things. Right. And this goes back to a world that Carter and I love deeply, which is the world of comedy. Most people come to watch a stand-up comedian perform their hour knowing fully that this hour has been performed at local theaters or comedy clubs near you, but they want to feel like they're hearing it from the first time stream of consciousness, like they just came up with it. In fact, the art form doesn't work. It doesn't feel natural. It doesn't feel connective. It doesn't feel like we're sharing a common experience if they don't have that underlying foundation of ease, of organic, of I just came up with this sort of thing.
Zain: Everyone knows that they didn't.
Carter: And
Zain: And I think this press conference has that parallel. That line has that parallel, which is that everyone knows, ourselves included, that the team prepped a version for him. But what worked in that moment was two elements. Number one, he picked up on the real estate side. And you saw how assertively Carney was to get in on there. Because
SPEAKER_08: Because
Zain: Because I think he saw an opportunity to be like, I'm going to make mention of it now. I'm going to talk about 51st State over and over, but now's the time. You mentioned real estate. You mentioned the border. The team had probably also, Team Carney, probably also said every time Trump mentions the imaginary line, he goes right into this thing and that's where you get in. And so I do think this was rehearsed. I do think that was put together. But the execution on his part, the way he kind of spaced it, the way he looked up, the way he kept going once Trump said yes, the way he added examples, not just well scripted, well executed. So it's a very long way to say yes, which I believe is what this podcast is about, is saying very simple, short things in extremely long ways. Is that the message to take, Carter? I believe it is.
Carter: believe it is.
Carter: I think
Zain: think
Zain: that was very clippable, my piece. I think we should clip it. That was perfect.
Carter: piece. I think we should clip it. That was perfect. I heard at least four 30-second spots in there. Listen,
Annalise: perfect. I heard at least
Zain: Listen, I'm trying to create content for the pod. That's what I'm up to. The video's there.
Annalise: what I'm
Carter: I'm up
Annalise: up to.
Carter: The
Annalise: The
Carter: The video's there. Hours and hours.
Annalise: there.
Zain: there. Hours
Annalise: Hours and hours.
Carter: hours.
Annalise: The video's
Carter: The video's there. It's
Annalise: It's timely, Zambi, because my sister, who's not a frequent listener, listened to your last episode, which people have been giving rave reviews. And her feedback was it was too long.
Annalise: Do you have any other feedback? That was her feedback. Last episode, though, people love it. The Corey Hogan episode. People are into it. Carter, how do you prepare for something like this? To your point, Trump's a lunatic. And this could have gone very, very differently, even to the point that like a few minutes before the meeting started, he's posting on Truth Social about this
SPEAKER_00: you have any
Zain: other feedback?
SPEAKER_00: feedback? That
Zain: That
Zain: feedback.
SPEAKER_00: feedback. Last
Zain: Last
SPEAKER_00: Last episode, though, people
Annalise: this and that and argy-bargy, all caps, like that type of thing. How do
Annalise: do you prepare for meetings
Annalise: meetings with very unpredictable people? Well,
Carter: I mean, I come into the podcast every time wondering what exactly is going to happen, and
Annalise: what exactly is going to happen, and
Zain: and
Carter: and I never know. No, I think that when you're going into a meeting, I used to work for a very eccentric fella. Name
Annalise: fella. Name names. I'm
Carter: I'm not going to name names. But when I'm working with this eccentric fella, you never knew where you were going to go. You never knew what the meeting was going to be like. Do
Zain: to be like. Do I know this eccentric fella? Cora's not here to tell you
Annalise: Cora's not here to tell you not to name him, so you can name him, Carter. I'm
Zain: name him, Carter. I'm guessing one person.
Carter: No, you're not guessing.
Carter: You're not guessing. I'm not live.
Zain: not guessing. I'm not live. I'm not live. Yeah, you know exactly
Carter: Yeah, you know exactly who it is.
Zain: Okay, I'm just kidding. We're going to telepathically say the name to each other right now. No, we're not going to do that.
Carter: not going to do that. No, no, telepathically.
Zain: telepathically.
Carter: telepathically.
Zain: telepathically.
Carter: telepathically.
Zain: telepathically.
Carter: Do you know telepathically means? Not out loud. Yeah, but you're going to say it out loud. Okay, I got it. No, I got it. I totally got it. I know who you are. He was such a fucking
Zain: Do you know telepathically
Zain: Yeah, but you're going to say it out loud. Okay, I got it. No, I got it. I totally got it. I know who you are. He was such a fucking nut job. Oh, my God.
Carter: Anyways, in so doing, every time I go into the meeting, I never knew where it was going to go. And that
Carter: that was, on some levels, it's an entertaining challenge because you just never know what's going to happen you can be as prepared as you want to be but really what you've got to be is is like when you're in sport and you're doing sports and you're in the moment and you can and all you're doing is responding to the stimuli that are around you that's what mark carney was doing today he was in the moment he was responding to the stimuli that was around him zane's
Carter: zane's made a good point about prep but really this is more than just prep this is the ability to hang out with people who are a little bit crazy and i would argue that almost all billionaires are a little bit crazy because
Carter: because you have to be a little bit maybe maybe
Zain: maybe maybe he's had batting practice on this i'll hurt him right i think
Carter: right i think that he's he's gone around uh a few times on dealing with some uh uniquely eccentric individuals okay
Carter: um
Annalise: um what about body language zane in terms in terms of the prep um do you thought he he he nailed it there he was good there yeah
Zain: yeah
Annalise: yeah
Zain: yeah i think
Annalise: think so
Zain: so i mean i mean the body language for me me was really all about like the facial expressions and mark carney like i said does not have a great poker face he you know he he really doesn't so even when trump was talking about all the gold that now the oval office has carney was like near laughter which made me laugh because i was like that is so fucking crazy trump is like welcome to the oval office we've we've now got gold and carney's like uh-huh and he's just like trying not to laugh um i heard from someone who was inside the room that that the canadian delegation was like stone cold the whole time and i feel like they were all trained to like be stone cold the entire time including carney but i think his body language was fine his cadence was fine his tone was fine um he was very much in the reaction mode right he had a couple of things to say he picked his spots he hit solid signals i think on the on the um the real estate line he he hit the the home run on that one um but everything else was body body language how do you sit there for a seven minute monologue about 10 topics of
Carter: of
SPEAKER_07: of which
Zain: which three of them the president can refer to you on but not give you a chance to speak on but make sure you're paying fucking attention because if you're caught nodding to the wrong shit that's that's the meaning like so the body language i think was so much more important arguably than the scripted line or the reasserting canadian sovereignty because you could be caught sleeping for just moment and Trump moves on to the next topic and you know doesn't give you a chance and he may not even want you to audibly respond but you're caught like smiling agreeing whatever that becomes a story and he did not make that a story and I know that seems extremely small but the stakes and the pumping up of the stakes are so high that I think that was also a good job on his part.
Annalise: It's like it's wild times that we're in that that's the bar right that this is a meeting between two world world leaders and like that that body language piece is a huge a huge part of it but
Carter: but hasn't it always been like when you think back we've also seen a crazy
Annalise: when
Zain: when you think back
Zain: we've also seen a crazy version of this meeting yeah you remember months ago i think that also like in same setting same location everything we've seen what the worst arguably version of this meeting can look like well
Carter: yeah you remember months
Annalise: well is that is that part of the prep and do you i think you mentioned the same but that low expectations to go into it right setting the stage um to for people to have those low expectations so that when you don't screw up But it's a 96% that's doing good. I think
Zain: I think the Carney expectations where he really nailed it was the expectations of results today, right?
Zain: Because the conservatives could have driven the agenda, despite kind of being in their own turmoil. They could have driven the agenda saying Mark Carney is going to, if Mark Carney does not cancel the tariff deal on Tuesday when he goes, that's a major fuck up. And by doing that press conference Friday, setting the stakes that no solutions will be had here. And this will take as long as it takes and not a day longer. I
Zain: think that was the proper setting of the stakes. I still think the stakes were extremely high on all things, body language, statement, all that sort of stuff in the room over those 30 minutes.
Carter: all things,
Carter: Carter, what do you think? Go ahead. Do you think that like when Donald Trump gets briefed, one of the things his aides tell him is the net worth of the individual that he's talking to? You
Carter: know, like what's Zelensky's net worth? $15, $20? You know, like it's not going to be great. But what's Mark Carney's net worth? X, right? X is big. And
SPEAKER_08: Zelensky's
Carter: do you think that that changes the way that the interaction occurs? Because I think that it changes the interaction. I think that Mark Carney walks into that room with such a leg up on Justin Trudeau, with such a leg up on Zelensky, with such a leg up on Macron.
Annalise: So you just think the respect is there off the bat in a way that it's not for others?
Carter: I think that Donald Trump respects money because he equates money with power.
Annalise: And
Carter: And
Carter: And so, you know, that's why I think he likes dictators, because dictators make themselves rich. Right. That, you know, the the the using
Carter: the state to power the individual and to to profit the individual is always seen as being beneficial by Donald Trump. And here's Mark Carney walking in. He's already used the system, if you will. to make himself successful.
Carter: successful. And I think that Donald Trump values that. I think that that's one of the reasons that the meeting went so well. I mean, did Mark Carney bring a different message than Justin Trudeau? No. Or a different message than Chrystia Freeland brought?
SPEAKER_07: No.
Annalise: No. Or
SPEAKER_07: Or a
Carter: No. But
Carter: But he is a different messenger. And
Carter: that different messenger is wrapped up in hundred, hundred, hundred dollar bills.
Carter: Same.
Annalise: Same.
Zain: What the fuck was that last part?
Zain: we got a clip that carter
Carter: we
Annalise: we got a clip that carter trying to sound young and and hip that went very poorly i think i do it again yeah do it again carter add
Zain: trying to sound
Zain: very poorly i think i do it again yeah do it again carter add a bit more bars so we can make the clip uh really really take off no it's gonna come
Carter: add
Annalise: add a
Carter: a
Carter: off no it's gonna come out like uh much worse yeah
Zain: yeah and a little bit more racist
Zain: only because
Carter: because you make it racist zane only because you make it racist i don't see right uh okay
Annalise: uh okay
Carter: okay last last
Annalise: last last question on this is there anything there was criticism that he didn't speak enough Zane, you kind of addressed that, that it was a good amount. But Carter, for your 96 to get to 100 or Zane, your A to get to an A+, was there anything tangible
Annalise: tangible that could have been done differently? And maybe the answer is no because you didn't want the first one to be too perfect because there will be more meetings.
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Zain: Yeah, for my perspective,
Carter: Yeah, for my perspective,
Zain: perspective,
Zain: I think ordering was also a matter of what came first. If they had had their meeting first and this second, then I think he could have spoken up more. Both guys came into this pretty cold. Now, Trump is never cold. He could just walk in and just fucking start, you know, talking about inane bullshit at any point, including Obama's library being a disaster and Trump offering him to fix it. But
Carter: and
Zain: from Carney's perspective, you've got one choice. You've got a couple of choices. You could pick your spots where you know you can make the points that you need to or you could start poking in on everything. And you've actually seen versions of this. Macron and Starmer jumped in a lot more.
Zain: But the message that they were trying to bring, other
Zain: than making sure that Trump heard about Ukraine and that their solidarity with Ukraine was less significant and less existential than what we were trying to prevent
Zain: annexation, tariffs and a renewed partnership. And so I think he chose the right spots to hit the right notes rather than swinging for everything. thing
Annalise: carter what could you
Carter: you know what really bothered
Annalise: you know what really bothered me tell us and i
Carter: bothered me tell us and i i know that he had to do this but this is what bothered me transformational
Zain: i
Zain: transformational president transformational
Carter: transformational president yeah
Zain: yeah me too drove
Carter: drove me crazy um
Carter: um i understand why he did it i understand and then to say you know i've been elected to do the same type of thing in canada he has absolutely not been elected to do the same type of thing in canada it's it's in fact the opposite we want to be protected from the from the transformational change that's happening in the united states um i i really disliked that i understand why he did it i would not have counseled him not to do it but i found it very off-putting from my individual point of view was
Annalise: was there a different way he could have done it like that he could have gotten the same point
Annalise: across but not use like do you have a better way he could have done it i feel like he has to do it i
Carter: i
Carter: i i think you could have said he's He's a once-in-a-generation president.
Carter: Yeah,
Zain: Yeah, you know, for me, I agree with Carter. The reason it bothered me is because it is sucking up to Trump, obviously, and it's clear and it's on the front end, and it's literally what the White House used in the— they literally have a montage of images with
SPEAKER_02: obviously,
Zain: with that quote from Carney underneath it. I
Zain: also think, if I'm giving Carney a bit of grace,
Zain: transformational can also be a pretty neutral term. kind
Annalise: neutral term.
Annalise: kind
Zain: of like consequential and generational they they now
Zain: i don't think anyone it
Zain: wouldn't be the word of preference to use for mussolini but
Zain: he was transformational
Zain: pol pot other words for sure maybe 20 of them before transformational idiom mean
Zain: transformational so
Zain: so listen i i actually
SPEAKER_03: i actually
Zain: hitler stalin i mean let's go let's bring him on but but but but and then this might be this might be trying to defend him too much uh a i believe he had to do it the meeting could not have diffused the 51st state stuff without that tone and tenor um i think they probably made that calculation very early and that was a very scripted piece like and that looked and sounded very scripted which i think is just
Carter: i
SPEAKER_03: i mean let's go let's bring him on but but
Carter: but
SPEAKER_07: scripted which i
Carter: i think is just
Zain: just fine i also think the word choice was deliberate um
Zain: um and and And you could see that as such.
Annalise: Let's leave that one there, guys. Move on to our next segment. Let's talk about Alberta.
Annalise: Oh, dear. Do
Carter: Oh, dear. Do
Carter: Do we have to? The elephant in the room, Stephen Carter. Or British Columbia? We're talking about
Annalise: The elephant in the room, Stephen Carter.
Zain: Carter. Or British Columbia? We're talking about our transformational leader, Danielle Smith. Yeah. It's a good segue, right? You may have heard of her.
Annalise: Danielle Smith. Yeah. It's a good segue, right? You may have heard
Annalise: Guys, yesterday, Monday, she did this address to Albertans, 18 minutes, 3 p.m. television address. Followed that up to date. They stayed in the headlines here with the presser with journalists, took questions from journalists.
Annalise: Daniel Smith, the premier of Alberta, says she does not support Alberta separating, but she supports any citizen-led petition that gets the 177,000 signatures required to trigger a petition in, I think it's 121 days. They've got less
Annalise: less signatures, more days because of Bill 54.
SPEAKER_01: 54.
Annalise: In the address yesterday, she had a list of demands for Carney. She's going to tour the province with an Alberta Next panel. Lots going on here. Stephen Carter, why
Annalise: is she doing this? Why
Carter: is she doing this? It's an easy way to score points. With who, her base? Yeah, I think, well, part of her base. There is a group of people for whom separation is valuable. I've numbered it around 250,000 people in the province of Alberta. Alberta, I, you know, it polls somewhere around 20%, which is, but I think that that's people who just are angry saying these things who haven't really thought through separation. But there's a small group of people who've thought through separation and who think it's a really good idea. And Danielle Smith has decided to, through her own leadership challenges and inabilities, She has chosen to put herself in a position where she gets
Zain: With who, her base?
Carter: gets to use this weapon
Carter: against the federal government the same way that she perceives the way that Quebec used the weapon of separation to get whatever it wanted. So it's kind of like watching a grade
Carter: grade school student try and figure out how to do debating. They can't really do it. So they just get loud. And this is the equivalent of Danielle Smith being unable to communicate effectively and get what she wants. So she's just decided to throw separation into it. And for her to say that she doesn't support separation when she's taking this all of this effort.
Carter: She's the one who lowered the threshold. She's the one who extended the number of days. She's the one who's making it easier for a citizen-led referendum that could cost us dearly. Even the thought of separation, just the thought of separation is going to cost us jobs. It's going to cost us in the economy. And she should know that if she has any degree of awareness of what happens in the rest of the world when people start musing about leaving their home countries. Zane brought up a great example today of Brexit. You know, the foolish meanderings of a few people suddenly turns into a mantra for British people who think that they're getting pissed on and it winds up destroying their economy for what will be a generation. um
SPEAKER_08: um that
Carter: that is just a full cell phone and it is such a such a useful parallel uh to the paradigm that that uh that
Carter: that danielle smith is creating for herself and i think that there's only one explanation for it and is that she's just not intellectually capable of understanding the the risks and the the tenuous reward that she's playing with when she plays with this type of ammunition They
Annalise: They do agree. What what I mean, we've talked about before on the show. She's strategically smart. She thinks ahead. What what is she trying to accomplish? I
Zain: don't know if it's anything she's particularly trying to accomplish other
Zain: than I read it a bit differently. Like, I think Carter's points are true. But
Zain: I do think that
Zain: separatism is always a card she had to play if she knew the other issues were going to be damning to her.
Zain: And I do think that this is as much of a big fucking channel changer than it is and that it also is everything Carter's mentioned.
SPEAKER_02: is everything
Zain: There is something to be said about, you know, while she's doing OK in the polls right now, at least from the numbers that we have seen,
Zain: that the scandal on health care, the scandal on corruption should and could be government ending scandals. And frankly, I think, Carter, if they were 10 years ago, they would be. Yeah,
Carter: Yeah, for sure. Right.
Zain: Right. Like these would be scandals that would take down a government. it um the fact
Carter: these would be scandals that would take
Zain: fact is most people don't even know about the recent developments about the the justice minister's relationship personal relationship with this guy like there's so many things that are problem defining so the cynical part of me thinks separatism was always a card she could play if there was something coming down the pipeline that would be a big fuck you and and if she wanted to just get off the page in addition to
Zain: weaponizing it obviously um Um, creating and
Zain: rallying her base, having plausible deniability built in, which I think she's trying to do, which is complete fucking bullshit. You
Zain: You know, if
Zain: if things go badly, she can always be like, oh, I was just respecting democracy. I
Carter: I think
Zain: I think that's what I was doing the whole time.
Zain: Um, avoiding
Zain: avoiding accountability in that way. And then I think there's also an element of like keeping opponents off balance, right? keeping the NDP off balance as they try to chase down the corrupt care angle on health care? What part of their resources do they devote to separatism? What part of it is shadowboxing on their part? Are they spread too thin around true issues? One of which she may never get the blame on. So it's one of those things where I think she's obviously trying to be strategic.
Zain: But I do, like Carter, feel like there's a chance she may have just fucking overplayed her hand. like this is a huge problem for pierre paulie evan puts him in a terrible position likely turns a lot of the cpc against her even locally in in alberta um and
Zain: and and the vast majority of alberta still oppose this we may have hit a new high water mark nearly 60 like nearly 65 percent of people opposing this it's a 30 ish uh for it um
Carter: um
Zain: but that's still relatively low my
Zain: concern for her though is exactly what i mentioned today and and when we were doing our our our lunch show Carter, which is we
Zain: have seen and we know people and we might be those people that can turn a 35% issue into 50% plus one issue. Brexit
Carter: issue. Brexit
Zain: is a great example.
Zain: There were no real geniuses behind Brexit. There was just a really weak opposition proposing it, combating it. And they didn't necessarily have it's not that they were inherently weak. They were either being like, there's no way this is a real thing and or they didn't have a great singular oppositional point versus the the pro-brexit side chose a one singular we'll put money in your back in your pocket for health care remember those fucking buses like that's all they said that was literally all you get from brexit and separatism separatism as we talk about it right now is this big insane cloud but what happens if we boil down separatism to one singular, easy-to-digest data point. And the opposition comes with 55 reasons to not separate, and the separatism side has one easily digestible point. That is a reality that takes a 35-point issue and makes it a 50% plus one issue. And that's where I think she may have fucking overplayed her end and flirting with real fire here.
Carter: like that's all
Carter: separatism separatism
Carter: separatism
Carter: Exactly. But here's the other thing, though, Zane. You're forgetting that there was also another thing that they didn't talk about and didn't put on buses but certainly was one of the brexit pieces and that is you won't have to deal with any more immigrants right no more polish people coming in and taking your jobs no more no more you know
Zain: But here's
Carter: immigrants from uh south asia or no more immigrants from asia right like the racism that was the the casual racism that under underpinned this and this is one of the things that underpins our separatist thing is if the french could do it if the quebecers could do it then fuck it we're doing it too right
SPEAKER_01: asia right like
Carter: and it's got this kind of you know they're getting one over on us because we send them all of our money for transfer payments which has been the lie of the third of the last 30 years that the client started to tell us and we've all bought into we are just as guilty of uh or we we do transfers in alberta the exact same fashion that there's transfers that are done in uh in can in canada people
Carter: people who make more money pay more And people
Carter: people who make less money pay less money. And we all agree with those principles. And yet, when it comes to the federal scene, oh, fuck those guys in Quebec. The average income is what? $80,000 in Quebec? It's $120,000 here? Oh, fuck them. But
Zain: let's be clear, right? My numbers are wrong on that, by the way. There is a historical precedent to this. You
Carter: right? My numbers are wrong on
Carter: the way. There is a historical precedent
Zain: can sell big, crazy, low-polling things by
Zain: placing them into a small, simple
Carter: placing
Zain: simple nugget. And
Zain: that's what could happen here. This is why I think she's really playing with fire.
SPEAKER_01: Because
Zain: Because first, let's talk about the threshold, Carter. $177,000 in 120 days, doable. Like, actually doable. If you're organized, doable.
Zain: It's,
Carter: It's, it's, it's tricky, but it certainly could be done. What you do is you pre-organize, uh,
Carter: uh, you know, and you'd make sure that you have all your people ready to go. And the clock
Zain: uh,
Zain: you
Zain: go. And the clock starts and then you can do all the stuff. Yeah.
Carter: then you can do all the stuff. Yeah.
Carter: Yeah. Not
Zain: Not
Zain: Not like we've done it, but like when you look at the math and you look at the organization, then if there is tacit consent by the premier, which I classify this week as being doable. Totally. OK, because let's be clear what she said. I
Zain: will. I've reduced the bar and I'll take this shit seriously and I'll put it as a referendum. Right.
Zain: So tacit
Zain: consent if I'm being charitable, which I am. But we've seen this across the world. Trump is an example of this. Trump re-election is an example of this. All the crazy stuff right now that we are seeing, no one really voted for. But it was a price of eggs and future opportunity. opportunity dialing down something crazy in the crazy package and selling a small simple version of it or a small simple subset of it same with like when india demonetized their money do you guys remember this they literally position as as government corruption as fighting back against black money and they just you know invalidated currency notes for people there and we see this In governance, we see this in elections, and we've seen it very recently. People will buy a broader crazy package, a broader package of things that they do not like if it includes one thing that they really do like. And my worry is that the separatists find that one thing. And my worry is that the opposition is saying all of the reasons against it versus fighting it on that one thing. The separatism fight in Alberta, should it happen, may be on something entirely unrelated or directly not related to separatism. That is my prediction. It will be a ballot box question about it, but it will be a debate about something like health care. It will be a debate about something like economic upside for youth or economic diversification. They'll find a 70-30 issue to fight the 30-70 issue, which is separatism. That is how they will sell this thing. And that is why Daniel Smith, am I wrong, Carter? That is why Daniel Smith has proposed something as crazy because there is a pathway for this. And she may have actually overplayed her hand in this regard in terms of potentially being a co-author of this outcome. Okay,
Carter: invalidated
Annalise: invalidated
Carter: invalidated
Annalise: Okay, lots to go into, but just take one step back. Why now? Like you talked about the channel change and the distraction for the opposition. Lots going on right now. Why coming out so hot right now? Carney, your thoughts
SPEAKER_00: going on right
Annalise: thoughts on that? cory hogan
Zain: cory hogan cory
Carter: hogan
Zain: hogan and carney cory
Carter: hogan and
Carter: cory hogan and mark i want i
Zain: cory hogan
Zain: i want i want carter to explore the cory hogan bit just a bit more yeah cory
Annalise: i want
Carter: yeah cory hogan one uh
Zain: hogan one
Zain: uh
Carter: uh
Zain: uh
Carter: uh and he's
Zain: and he's going to be our minister of what it's
Carter: what it's going to be uh it's going to be a tough call on that you know i wouldn't want to be in the room trying to pick that cabinet it's tough it's hard to pick these cabinets you know they're tricky little devils ready
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Zain: let him off the hook i'm
Carter: i'm not gonna he's not he's not i just
Annalise: he's not he's not i just imagine what cory has said to him about not uh not ruining his chances uh carter why you were nodding or shaking your head you were doing something there the the timing now is just because Because of Kearney, she's coming in hot. She had
Zain: ruining his chances uh
Carter: She had Trudeau exactly where she wanted him. She does not have Mark Kearney where she wants him. And so she has just decided to ramp up the rhetoric one more level and really push as hard as she could in order to try and get whatever concessions she can.
Carter: Keep in mind that essentially this whole separatism argument is wrapped in a list of eight or nine big demands. Access to tidewater ports. You know, Alberta and Saskatchewan don't have access to tidewater ports. Well, what are you going to do, dig a fucking ditch? Like, we don't have access to ports. Like, that's just our reality. But she wants access to ports, unfettered access to ports. What else does she want, Zane? I'm trying to remember the other. Oh, man, let
SPEAKER_01: Access to
Zain: Oh, man, let me look it up. I have it here. But
Carter: it here.
Carter: But these demands, you know, essentially eliminate the cap on carbon, and eliminate all the carbon taxes. So there's
Zain: taxes. So there's equalization. There's a repeal of environmental legislation and the tanker ban, rollback of clean electricity, consultation of export tariffs, respecting indigenous treaty rights, okay, the creation of a negotiated institution team and a sovereignty panel. Yeah.
Carter: the creation
Carter: Yeah. No
Zain: No
Zain: No government in their right mind is going to give her most of this.
Carter: Yeah, I mean... Or can, or can,
Zain: Or can, or can, or can. It's not even in
Carter: or can. It's not even in their power to give in some regards. Like this is a lunatic who has clearly lost her ability to figure out what a proper negotiating stance is and has decided to hold the federal government hostage and then has done so with the gun of separation held at her own head.
Zain: Like this is
Annalise: So play it out, though. So she said this. I mean, she said today, I don't support this, but I support the referendum.
Carter: referendum.
Zain: That
Annalise: That
Carter: That
Zain: That is bullshit. This is
Carter: This is David Cameron saying he doesn't support Brexit, but bringing it up, giving it legs and allowing it to to walk all over him and then saying at the end of it well i i guess i have to resign you fucking idiot but you know play it out manning saying the west wants in and in so doing isolating the west for for for a generation this is these these people don't understand the tools with which they are playing because they're intellectually unable to and uh each one of them winds up getting shot in the foot or in some cases like david cameron and Preston Manning shot right in the fucking noggin.
SPEAKER_01: it out manning
Annalise: Okay, thanks, Carter. But play it out. It's out there. It's out there. She's lit the fire under people to go, you know, as Zane says, start doing the pre-planning, have your date, try for the 170-70. What, clearly
Annalise: clearly very dangerous, very concerning for a lot of people, but to Zane's point,
Annalise: what does the side that says we don't want to separate, what should they be doing right now? We
Carter: should organize our own petition.
Annalise: Talk to me. walk me through it. So
Carter: So 80
Carter: 80% of a separate, you know, we should organize our own petition for something,
Carter: right? And take the wind right out of them.
Carter: Because it doesn't even matter if the petition is successful. If
Carter: If the petition isn't successful, it just becomes another example of how hard it is to do these things. And we can actually get a citizen-led referendum on something that actually matters, right? We could instill municipal rights, or we can instill a health health funding guarantee. We could do something around post-secondary education. We could do something around motherhood and apple pie if we wanted to, that would take
Carter: take the wind right out of the separatism. You
Carter: know, like one of the things we could do is that every lottery dollar goes to healthcare or every dollar of royalties goes into the Alberta Savings Trust Fund, whatever else else that we wanted to do but there's something out there that would that would ultimately take the wind out of the separatist ability to sign a petition because
Carter: because people wouldn't know what petition we're doing which
Carter: which petition is this what's going on is this the health care petition let me sign the health care petition right
Zain: right
Zain: i have a slight i i'm like i agree with carter that a counter petition allows activity to happen and potentially puncture the balloon i also think there's a more head-on way to do it which is to have people like carter and i not do it and
Carter: and what
Zain: what
Zain: what i mean by that and this goes back to something being like it matters who your opponents are if the natural opponent on this are the ndp this
Carter: if
SPEAKER_02: if the
Zain: this is not a winner uh for the ndp in a head-to-head in a head-to-head in the sense that they can't be the natural opponents you
Annalise: ndp in
SPEAKER_02: in
Zain: you carter you almost want to have a scenario where the natural opponents are conservatives yeah
Zain: you want you You want this, you
Carter: you almost want to be like, you literally be
Zain: you almost want to be like, you literally
Zain: be like, Jason Kenney, here are the keys. Here's the economic and business leaders. Here's the economic leaders of the party, of, sorry, of the province, of Western Canada. Here's former conservatives, right? You actually want to be really careful who forms the opposition here.
Zain: And in some ways, if
Zain: this can be a battle of conservatism, bastardize versus not, which which is not a charitable way of putting it, that is actually what leads to potential success here. If this becomes a bunch of us, Annalise, Calgary Confederation latte-sipping fucking losers, as
Annalise: as they would call us, right?
Zain: they would call us, right? Corey Hogan voters, as they would call us.
Carter: Corey
Annalise: Corey
Carter: Corey
Carter: as
Annalise: as they would
Zain: That's good. It's exciting. It's a fundraising opportunity for the Alberta NDP. But if they're the natural opponents of it, I'm not sure this gets the legs that it needs, even if it's a 35% issue today, 25% issue today. Yeah,
Annalise: today. Yeah, because the right calm takes the 35% to 45% to 55%.
Zain: calm
Zain: This has to be a unity, patriotic choice,
Zain: conservative argument against separatism. But
Annalise: separatism. But do you see... That's
Zain: see... That's how I see who needs the keys. But do you
Annalise: But do you see that happening? Because then you're getting a split amongst conservatives.
Zain: conservatives. Well, I mean, that's an ideal situation also. So it's an ideal outcome, right, for for for someone like the New Democrats, both in terms of the short and the long term, depending on what the long term leads to from a partisan political party perspective. But I also think it's the right move. Like, I also think it's the right move. Now, is there appetite? Not my world. Like, Carter, you may have a better sense of if there's real appetite for the actual conservative crowd to mobilize against us. But
Annalise: also. So it's an ideal outcome,
Zain: But to me, I think the opponent here really, really matters. I mean, if you want to be
Carter: matters. I mean, if you want to be if you want to be the next premier of the province, this is a great opportunity. If
Carter: you want to be the next conservative premier. Yeah,
Zain: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good because
Carter: That's a good because
Carter: because if you're let's just pick on poor Michelle Rempel-Garner just because she's fun to pick on. She's got, you know, she's not going anywhere in federal politics. If she wants to become the next premier of the province of Alberta, she picks this thing up and she starts organizing against it, doing
Carter: doing a counter petition
Carter: petition of some sort. you know keep keep alberta in confederation or whatever the heck she chooses um she comes after it she starts to to fight against this thing she has she would be able to round up enough members that she would be able to defeat she could even organize against danielle smith at conventions she could organize against danielle smith in in a in
Carter: in a really dangerous way for danielle um and if she you know and it's there for her it's not like she's going to be in cabinet it you know she's got another fucking four years sitting in the back benches why not take a shot at danielle smith danielle's now opened up her flank and by playing with the separatist stuff has probably pissed off a good half of the caucus a good half yeah of the of the ucp base there
Zain: there has to be a signal that this is dividing conservatism and i think new democrats and others need to be able to take advantage of that opportunity because if if new democrats or progressives become the de facto opposition this has a chance of breaking on partisan lines even if the question is fucking separatism right like i have to qualify that even if the question is as insane as separatism people
Zain: can fall into their right left uh divides and and then we're in a coin flip yeah
Annalise: or
Zain: or worse or worse but do you
Annalise: worse but do you think they do that like you you you know progressives i know progressives do you think no i think
Zain: think no i think they'll certainly take advantage of the moment and push back and like frame canada and i think they'd have to do all those things there's just also a a natural issue
Zain: here that by being the singular opposition there's two issues by being the singular opposition and then comma being the singular opposition that has 50 reasons against it which is also a progressive thing that we do which is we find all of the robust reasons why separatism and all of them valid and well researched and brand
SPEAKER_02: do which
Zain: brand and an economy and upside and Confederation and whatever.
Zain: We can name 45 others.
Zain: That's the issue. One opponent, 50 arguments is bad. Multiple opponents, singular argument is good.
Annalise: Carter, how worried
Zain: worried
Zain: worried
Annalise: worried should I be? How worried should people be? Like listening to this, listening to the remarks that were said yesterday, listening to, there was one journalist asking a question today that really like was like, this is serious and this is what you're saying. You've been around a while. you're old so you've lived through lots of uh lots of different different things like how how worried are you about um about this this
Carter: lots
Carter: this
Carter: could be the most uh devastating year in alberta history i'm
Zain: i'm with carter and
Carter: i'm with carter i'm not i'm
Zain: i'm with carter i'm not i'm not into alarmist bullshit because we do what we do uh
Carter: i'm not into alarmist bullshit
Annalise: bullshit
Zain: we can kind of see and frankly we've seen what we've seen You
Zain: can kind of see how this gets there.
Annalise: So what's, for those people listening who are also worried. It's not naturally
Zain: not naturally going to go there, yeah. Who
Annalise: Who want it, who, you know, who want to do, some of who are riding the high of like Corey Hogan just getting elected, right? Feeling like they've done something, they've made change. And now we're dealing with this. Like what's, I don't know, Carter, give me your grandfatherly advice. Here
Carter: grandfatherly
Carter: Here are my things that I would recommend. If you, you know, wherever you are, get involved in your municipal politics. politics um munis the municipalities are going to have a huge uh huge voice in any in any coming refer you know referendum or a plebiscite the um municipalities are organized
Carter: right now to fight back against the provincial government and they need to do that really hard if you're conservative you've got to start or you know find your conservative leaders that are going to start Start standing up against this separatist threat. You know, if you're in Danielle Smith's cabinet, now is the time to resign. It
Carter: is time to find a fucking backbone and get out of her cabinet. Because it is toxic and it is threatening our livelihood. So if you really profess to care about the economy, which each of you does, today's the day to get out. And
Carter: And then if you're Jason Kenney or Michelle Rempel-Garner, start organizing.
Carter: Start organizing to take back Alberta the right way. Because this is lunacy that's being proposed. And I'm disgusted by Danielle that she's taking us into this position. It's going to hurt for a very long time. But I get to organize. Those are the things that I would do.
Annalise: Yeah, I'll
Zain: I'll add another one because I almost made it seem like that there's no role for the NDP. In fact, let me be very crass about it. There is opportunity here for the NDP, not just if other conservatives start organizing against it, and they get some of that drift. But also the NDP knows that any election,
Annalise: I'll
Carter: I'll
Annalise: I'll
Zain: whether under normal circumstances or tied to a
Zain: referendum or separation, is going to be coming back to the NDP's credibility on economic management. And this is a time to talk about economic risk and stability. This
Carter: And
Zain: This is a time to take leadership on that. While one does not care about that, you actually do. You
Zain: You care about the issues people care about. You're still the party driving the day-to-day issues. Economic management, economic risk, economic stability, etc. You're kind of borrowing a bit from the Carney playbook. You're not wearing any of the liberal red, but you're talking about those things. You're also building strange coalitions yourself. This is a time where this question has an opportunity where hand-holding between mainstream conservatives and center-left Alberta New Democrats is possible. And
Zain: for the sake of the province, there is opportunity there. So if folks are looking at where they're contributing their time, energy and resources, the Alberta NDP do absolutely have a role. I just and I think a very significant one that helps both their electoral opportunity, because it's to be clear, this is not like, even though Carter and I are concerned about this, it's not a natural winner, right? Like, to be clear, it will take some molding, it'll take some opportunity, but we can see the dots on the board in terms of what those look like. Like, the NDP still have the better argument here. They still have the Canadian unification argument. They have opportunity to help their future selves here. They have an opportunity to build that broad-based coalition, to hold hands with folks that would not necessarily be in the tent and look at that as a good thing. And I think that's an opportunity for folks to say, if you had any fucking doubt in your mind, and
Carter: the board in terms of what those
Zain: this is my most partisan thing I'll say on this episode, which of the two mainstream Alberta political parties represents Alberta? Here
Zain: is your answer. We're
Zain: literally right in front of you.
Annalise: What should
Annalise: should
Annalise: should Polyev do? And I say that in the sense that he will be running for a seat. Honestly retire. Honestly
Zain: a seat. Honestly retire. Honestly retire at this point. But
Annalise: point. But in this issue, he'll be running for a seat in Alberta. You mentioned his name at the top when we were talking about this. But strategically, where does this put him with Conservatives in Alberta and Smith? Well,
Zain: seat in Alberta.
SPEAKER_01: he
Annalise: he
SPEAKER_01: he
Carter: he has the opportunity to actually run as a patriotic Canadian. Yeah, he does. And he did that by saying, you know, Canada is worth fighting for. you know, stealing blatantly Corey Hogan's slogan. But nonetheless, you know, it's a tremendous opportunity for him to stand apart from Daniel Smith. There is no love lost between Daniel Smith's team and Pierre Polyev's team. They
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he does. And
Carter: are not the same team.
Carter: Pierre Polyev can, you know, I
Carter: I think really redefine what conservatism looks and feels like in the province of alberta by coming and and uh trying to win battle river uh you know it's going to be tricky yeah i think really really tough there is opportunity
Annalise: really
Zain: really
Annalise: really really
Zain: really
Annalise: really
Zain: really
Annalise: really
Zain: tough there is opportunity here for poly f there is massive political opportunity here as houston and ford have well if houston and ford have come out and told poly f that he was not listening and he didn't consider their version of conservatism to be conservatism i.e progressive conservatism there is an opportunity to quite literally take a fringe right-wing conservative movement in this province and say fuck you. Actually, you're not conservatism. And define yourself as Pierre Poliev as what you consider to be a more moderate approach. Look how moderate Jason Kenney is looking to us right now. Right? Seriously though. Jason Kenney was the most right-wing thing that happened to our province in, was it 2018? 2019? Holy
Carter: opportunity here
Carter: as houston and
Carter: Jason
SPEAKER_07: Jason Kenney was the most right-wing thing
Zain: George Bush. Right.
Zain: Right. There's a George Bushification of Jason St. Kenny happening, Pierre Poliev has the opportunity to take a clear unifying stance against separatism, address the grievances of Albertans, but also know that, what, fuck you. If you, like, give me 10 less points next election, I don't care. I'm taking a stance around what conservatism is. And frankly, he could be one of those leaders in
Zain: in that conservative movement against separation, whether it's with a bit of distance or, frankly, going right into it, and understanding that growth in the 905, where he still has made growth, but needs more growth in the Atlantic provinces, growth in British Columbia, um, is not going to be giving this any oxygen whatsoever. And in fact, uh, you will be rewarded, um, if you cool down these separatist sentiments or, or quash them to me, despite him saying retired, there's political opportunity here. He could also be the guy that helps unify some of these business forces, you know, positions Positions these conservatives and position conservatives overall like as this National Cohesion Party. So there's upside here for Polyev. The question is, per
Zain: that video, has he thought, has he changed, has he been able to reflect fast enough? There are people in our lives politically that have thought, changed, reflected, moved on, been different versions of themselves. Is Pierre Polyev one of them? Good
Annalise: question. Lastly on this one, what about, and Carter, you mentioned kind of upcoming municipal elections across Alberta. But like mayors,
Annalise: mayors, municipalities, councillors, people who want to be in these positions, even like chambers of commerce and stuff like what what should folks and is it is is it just coming out and saying this is nuts, this is dangerous, like trying to put a stop to it that way? What, what would you recommend for these folks? I
Carter: think that you need to make this very clear and that the selfish nature of the voter needs to be understood. This is going to cost so much. And I'm not just talking money. I'm talking about international standing, the
Carter: the ability, you
Carter: you know, what would we, who
Carter: who would be our major trading partner? It would be Canada and the United States. We'd
Carter: be landlocked to get to anywhere else. You know, do you think Canada is going to let us send our oil without putting a tariff on it? Like, why would they? You know, if we separated the cost of separation for the average Albertan would be staggering. And I'd like to see every municipal politician come out and, you know, say
SPEAKER_07: You know, do
Carter: that they're for Canada. I'd like to see every chamber of commerce say that they're for Canada. I'd like to explain what their instant ramifications are. And I'd like to see head offices start to say, you know what, if we're not, we are a Canadian company, we're not just an Alberta company.
Annalise: Okay. Zane, anything you'd like to see from those folks?
Zain: Carter covered it all. Okay.
Annalise: Okay. Guys, let's move into a quick lightning round. Zane, you mentioned it, the video, Polyo's walk and talk video.
Annalise: Does it strike the right tone? I
Zain: I want proof that it wasn't a green screen.
Annalise: Carter. I
Zain: I want proof. Deliver proof. Does it strike
Annalise: Deliver proof. Does it strike the right tone? Is it a green screen? Love it. I've never
Carter: a green screen?
Carter: Love it. I've never loved it more. It's not a green screen. It's the best video in the history of mankind.
Annalise: Okay. Next lightning round question.
Annalise: The NDP, federal NDP, Carter. Now what for the federal NDP?
Carter: Close up shop.
Carter: Don't even bother running a leadership.
Carter: Give the seven MPs to the liberal party so that they can have a majority government. Problem
Annalise: Problem
Carter: Problem solved.
Annalise: Problem solved. Bold words. Zane, what next for the federal NDP? It's just exactly
Zain: NDP? It's just exactly the fucking opposite of what Carter said. Run a leadership race. Keep your MPs. Mark Carney, as much as I like him, and especially I'm very glad he's our prime minister for what I saw today, is going to leave room on the left and the center left. You have a place in this national conversation. It will take a while for you to get there. But we have seen with the right leader, anything can happen. Go leader shopping. Look far, look broad, even look outside. There's a world for the NDP in a big way. By the way, Carter doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.
Annalise: Okay,
Annalise: Okay, on that note, that is a wrap on episode 1867 of The Strategist. I'm your host, Annalise Klingbeil. With you, as always, tonight was Stephen Carter and Zane Belcher.
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