Zain: is Strategist episode 1859. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Stephen Carter. Carter, he just... Oh, never mind. He's here.
Zain: Corey Hogan. Here he is. Oh my god. And he's got... Nice to see you. What are you... Are you drinking something red?
Carter: Hogan. Here he is.
Corey: Fanta.
Zain: Fanta.
Corey: Fanta. Yeah,
Zain: Yeah, I'm drinking red.
Corey: red.
Zain: red. You
Corey: You
Zain: You
Corey: You
Zain: You
Corey: You
Zain: You fucking...
Corey: fucking...
Zain: fucking...
Zain: fucking...
Corey: That's what's happening here. Just... Just a shill. So deep
Zain: what's happening here. Just... Just
Carter: Just
Zain: Just
Carter: Just a shill.
Zain: shill. So deep into it. I'm like... So... Living that candidate life. Yeah, no, I think we all... Why is this... This situation could have been planned. This is nice. Thanks, guys. Thanks for the support. Carter, last we left off with what I thought was going to be the last time we'd hear from you, Corey. But we were actually here for the Stephen Carter accountability episode.
Carter: deep
Corey: deep into it. I'm like... So... Living that candidate life. Yeah, no, I think we all...
Carter: all...
Corey: all...
Carter: all...
Corey: all... Why
Corey: Why
Corey: nice. Thanks, guys.
Corey: Thanks for the
Zain: That's what this is. I'm not
Corey: this is. I'm not missing the Stephen Carter accountability episode. So just so people know, Stephen Carter was on a campaign,
Zain: So just so people know, Stephen Carter was on a campaign, and that campaign did
Zain: not win. So we're going to talk to Stephen about that. Would you phrase it that way, Carter?
Carter: no. We got our asses handed to us. Okay. We came in sixth and seventh, but there were only really three candidates.
Zain: We came
Carter: So we got
Carter: got fucked
Carter: fucked up.
Carter: All
Zain: All that time with the crowd-bolding in Vancouver. For what? For what?
Carter: For
Corey: For what?
Corey: what? For what?
Corey: Corey, you have an announcement to make.
Corey: I do have an announcement to make. I'll try to let you get through this.
Carter: make. I'll try to let you
Zain: you get through
Carter: through this. Are we going to interrupt him? No,
Corey: No, I'll try. But he's going to slip up at some point. Zane, I love
Zain: But
Corey: love you to death. you're
Corey: you're like a brother or a son who i'm stuck with but you have this special gift where you maybe sometimes undercut my serious pleas my serious calls with some uh some
Corey: some knots here so i'm gonna have to ask you to get on side with this one what do you say definitely no but okay
Carter: definitely
Zain: definitely no but good try all right keep going yeah you should have just gone for it rather than tell me what you're gonna tell me you should have just done it rather
Carter: going
Corey: going
Carter: going yeah you should have just
Corey: just
Carter: just
Corey: tell
Carter: tell
Corey: tell me what you're gonna tell me you should have just done it rather
Zain: rather than spend the time now i'm definitely going to interrupt you uh
Corey: the time now
Corey: definitely going
Zain: okay and i'm bringing carter and i'm bringing carter outside too now that's
Corey: and i'm bringing carter and i'm
Corey: that's my bad okay yeah that's a mistake that was a mistake that's on me i'm gonna own that as a candidate you should you
Zain: okay yeah that's a mistake
Zain: as a candidate you should you
Corey: you know what the buck stops here this is this is what i'm all about these days i am of course running for the liberals in calgary confederation it's It's called a battleground by, I believe, Stephen Carter in the Hilltimes. Thanks for that, bud. I know. It was good, eh?
Carter: I know. It was good, eh? It was
Zain: was
Corey: was really good. I didn't even
Carter: I didn't even know who I was. I thought I was actually talking about Lindsay Luna.
Corey: Oh, I screwed up then. But
Carter: Oh, I screwed up then. But
Corey: it's close, right? We all know it's close. It's close riding, winnable riding. But
Corey: I'm starting a week late.
Corey: And so we got to do like three months of campaigning in a day. And that's what we're going to try to do Saturday. We're going to try to paint confed red. Huh? Yeah? No? Not getting a lot of reaction. From the Doja Cat song. From the Doja Cat song.
Zain: From the Doja Cat song.
Corey: It's
Zain: It's going to really work with all the white people in Confed. But keep going.
Corey: with
Corey: going. Yeah, that's fine.
Carter: going.
Zain: going.
Carter: going. Yeah, that's fine. That's
Zain: That's good. They're
Corey: They're going to get the red. Paint Confed Red. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going to paint Confed Red. Yeah. .ca. I'm going to get that. I hope it's not taken. Oh, you are not going to get that. You think I can't
Zain: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Zain: I hope it's not taken. Oh, you are not going to get that. You think I can't buy domain names myself?
Corey: I guarantee you I can do it faster than you. I've got a little experience. Hold
Zain: experience. Hold on.
Carter: That's the domain you're
Zain: domain you're
Carter: you're going to go with?
Zain: I am pre-logged in to domain name purchasing.
Zain: You think you're going to get... You know what? Jump ball. This is not going my way so far. Jump ball for the audience. Something better than paint. Jump ball. Let the audience... Neither
Carter: you're
Corey: you're going to get...
Carter: is not
Corey: not going my way so far. Jump ball for the audience. Something better than paint. Jump ball. Let the
Zain: Neither of us take it. We make a... Okay, keep going.
Corey: We make a...
Corey: going. Yes.
Corey: We are going to door knock the
Corey: the whole riding in one day. It'll take about 500 volunteer shifts, about 250 in the morning, 250 in the afternoon. They'll be staggered throughout.
Corey: We can do this. And you, dear listeners, if you do one thing for me on this campaign,
Corey: do this thing. Come out to this particular thing. If you're in Edmonton, come down from edmonton if you're in lethbridge come up from lethbridge if you're in bc why
Corey: why alberta is just so great you should live here this is a better place lower taxes
Carter: this is a better place lower taxes come here
Corey: and help out on this campaign for that one day and if you do if
Corey: if you do you
Corey: you may you may be treated to an episode of a show legally distinct from the strategist called the candidate with special guest stars zane velge and steven carter yeah
Corey: is
Corey: is
Zain: is this what i've signed up for the whole is this what i said yes to yeah
Carter: is this what i've signed up for the whole is this what i said yes to yeah yeah
Zain: yeah yeah
Corey: yeah you agreed to come out on saturday you didn't uh we didn't do the details it's okay my
Zain: my appearance fee is five grand by the way paint confed red is already taken is this taken by you or your campaign is this how good your campaign is or is not you know what
Corey: what you
Zain: you
Corey: say jump ball i jump bud that's how this goes oh
Carter: oh my god carter there has to be something better than paint confed red right now car
Corey: carter there has
Zain: right now car i'm begrudgingly attending this uh this event as you know this is is not my party i am of course a um a big fan of the calgary party um as cory runs for mpp oh it's cory's running for alderman i believe as cory's running for alderman my party is the calgary party but i'm doing this because it's cory uh carter what's your reason what
SPEAKER_00: mpp
SPEAKER_02: mpp oh
SPEAKER_00: oh it's
Corey: it's
Carter: cory's running for alderman
Carter: because it's
Carter: am i doing this for yeah
Zain: yeah my wife's
Carter: my wife's the campaign manager okay well there yeah that's also news to me to be there and i was like okay that's how mii have
SPEAKER_00: okay
Corey: okay
SPEAKER_00: okay well there
Zain: there yeah
Corey: yeah
SPEAKER_00: yeah
SPEAKER_00: that's
Zain: that's also news to me to be there and
Zain: okay that's
Zain: that's how mii have been yeah
Carter: yeah thanks for being there bud it's been a busy week and you've just been right somewhere. Corey
Zain: Corey called me
Corey: me and I was at a squash tournament. So I was doing... You were at a squash tournament and I believe you said, and I quote, I'll call you right back. I had no intention to do that.
Corey: We can talk here.
Zain: I'm finding out so much about the campaign.
Corey: I'm
Corey: campaign.
Corey: You're learning a lot. Paint confederate. That's what you're going to do on Saturday. Corey,
Zain: That's what you're
Zain: Corey, usually if this was normal me, I would undercut you and criticize you for trying to politically poison in the well of what has been a non-partisan venture the entire time this podcast so here we are absolute
Corey: so here we are absolute truth here but i wouldn't do that i
Zain: here but i wouldn't do that i wouldn't do that uh because no because i think i think you you you need the help uh carter and you want to say anything nice you say
Corey: nice you
Carter: you
Carter: say anything nice about cory i want to say anything i mean if i thought i should be honest he needs the help reeks of desperation that we're doing a live show i'm
Zain: thought i should be honest he needs the help reeks
Carter: i'm actually looking forward to
Zain: i'm actually looking forward to the live show now One thing I do not know, Corey, when
SPEAKER_00: to
Zain: when you say it's called, are you actually going to be on stage with Carter and I? Because we prefer you not, just
Corey: actually going
Zain: to be honest.
Corey: I mean, I was going to be, but maybe it can be like, you know, we'll see. Can we both ask you questions?
Zain: I mean, I was
Zain: but maybe
Carter: maybe it
Zain: it
Carter: Can we both ask you questions?
Corey: I guess so. Yeah, because if it's going to
Carter: Yeah, because if it's going to be the candidate with Stephen Carter and Zane Velgey, see what I did there? I put my name first. Yeah. if it's going to be the candidate with Stephen Carter and Zane Velji, I think that we get to ask you questions instead
Corey: my name first.
Corey: Yeah. if it's
Carter: instead of, you
Carter: know,
Carter: you and I getting at being asked questions. In fact,
Zain: fact, Carter, I actually love that idea so much. I want to do that right now as a bit of batting practice. Let's call it, let's, let's call it a constituent corner. We'll do it for five minutes. We're both constituents and he is a candidate. Carter, what's your issue that you, let's just imagine Corey's knocked on your door, right? There he is right there. He's knocked on your door. Corey, can you knock? She's
Carter: Let's call it, let's,
Corey: five minutes. We're both constituents and he is a candidate. Carter,
Corey: what's
Corey: on your door.
Zain: like, do it. It's your standard pitch. I have the knock sound effect, please. Yeah, okay. Knock sound effect will be added. Okay, knock sound effect. Carter,
Corey: do it. It's your standard pitch. I have the knock sound effect, please. Yeah, okay. Knock sound
Zain: you are a middle
Zain: middle-aged, older side, white man living in Calgary Confederation. Corey's knocked on your door. You've got a burning issue. I'll let you take away a chance.
Corey: Okay.
Corey: So I say, hi, I'm
Corey: I'm Corey Hogan. I'm your Liberal candidate in Calgary Confederation.
Corey: How are you doing today?
Carter: I'm doing really well, and I'm glad you're here. oh
Corey: that's wonderful i'm going around i'm introducing myself uh you know want to talk about your issues here's my etc okay when
Carter: here's my etc okay
Carter: when is the street cleaning going to start and why does it seem to start later every year oh
Carter: oh
Corey: oh
Corey: oh
Carter: oh you haven't had snow i hate
Corey: you haven't had snow i
Corey: hate you so much why are you laughing
Carter: why are you laughing
Carter: don't
Zain: don't
Carter: don't laugh
Corey: laugh no
Zain: laugh no
Carter: no for weeks
Zain: weeks
Carter: weeks this is an older
Zain: older
Carter: older man who can barely
Corey: barely
Corey: barely see
Carter: see
Corey: see okay
Carter: okay
Corey: okay
Carter: okay
Corey: okay
Carter: okay
Corey: okay when's the street
Carter: when's the street cleaning gonna start i
Corey: i yeah it can be really frustrating uh that's a municipal issue but listen are you gonna
Carter: listen are you gonna run to represent me or are you not gonna run to represent me i
Carter: hate
SPEAKER_02: hate you
Carter: you
SPEAKER_02: you so much i
Carter: i
Corey: definitely represent you i'm happy to help you with the city can you got this great app 3-1-1 we can can you call it with me and
Carter: can you got this
Carter: can you call it with me and we'll find out when they're gonna start street cleaning
Corey: jesus christ no um yeah
Corey: yeah why not let's do it okay now
Carter: now
Carter: now let's try it again let's try it with zane okay we're going okay i'm ready all
Corey: we're going okay i'm ready all right get a knock on your door yep
Corey: yep yeah hi
Corey: hi cory hogan liberal candidate etc etc hey i'm just listening listen i'm just i'm
Zain: hey i'm just listening listen i'm just i'm with my kids right now listen um which party are we with just yeah sure i'll give you two seconds yeah go ahead yeah yeah yeah liberal party
Corey: yeah liberal party okay
Zain: okay yeah okay who uh
Corey: okay yeah okay who uh so mark carney he was the former governor of bank of canada governor oh yeah yeah no
Zain: oh yeah yeah no i heard about that guy listen um i love what trudeau did with the with the kids thing uh you you know, the child, kids, things. I have kids, which, okay, but it reminds me, the fluoride in the water,
Zain: does it actually, does
Zain: it cause brain cancer? Because
Zain: I've heard that if you combine the fluoride with the 5G, it's
SPEAKER_00: you combine
Zain: not good.
Zain: It's not good. So, like, what are you going to do about the fluoride? What are you going to do about the 5G? I'm just, like, I'm kind of concerned, and I don't have a lot of time, so, like, that's probably my issue.
Corey: Oh, okay. Okay, so, listen, I think you're okay with fluoride. Fluoride's kind of a natural thing. It's in a lot of water sources. is just not in calgary's naturally um it's good for your teeth not not really a federal issue but uh you know happy to generally support good science and good health you know we
Carter: we should do this weekly no should this is good yeah this is great you know we're gonna
Zain: gonna do it on stage this is a preview of the candidate oh
Corey: oh
Corey: oh good you're really selling the live show no well
Zain: no
Zain: well carter and i will bring costumes we'll wear hats we'll play different we'll play a a selection of
Corey: play different we'll play
Carter: play a
Carter: of different characters that's
Zain: of different characters that's
Carter: that's good okay
Zain: okay i just played and i'll just get out of method acting mode that was me um playing um brown dad who looked reasonable but was actually spending a lot of time on reddit that
Carter: i just played
Zain: that was that was my character carter
Zain: who was who
Zain: was the character you were playing uh
Carter: uh guy named steven carter okay that's good me that's
Zain: that's good me that's good yeah no it's good you're like the karen colkin just ride that fucking thing to an oscar carter okay good baby baby um yeah carter we're here for you we are here we should be talking federal politics but that's why i'm here well i know you're here for federal politics i understood that but but you are here also to
Carter: okay good baby baby
Corey: that's why i'm here well
Zain: see carter what
Zain: the fuck happened bud well
Zain: let's
Zain: start there i'm
Carter: all for four in british columbia okay
Corey: are you gonna give up on the place oh no
Carter: are you gonna give up on the place oh no
Carter: no
Carter: no
Corey: no i'm
Carter: no i'm doubling down i gotta go back i gotta figure this out um
SPEAKER_00: i'm
Corey: i'm doubling
SPEAKER_00: doubling
Carter: um this part this one was not mine to win though this one i
Carter: i don't care who did the campaign it was not going to be successful well tell us the context
Zain: well tell us the context tell us what was going on i think we we we briefly alluded to it in previous episodes but tell us what was at stake why there is a by-election why you decided just if you're open to it working with this group um
Zain: and then and then some of the dynamics and then lessons learned and shit we like to document this stuff well
Carter: as you uh i'll start kind of you know in
Carter: in the middle uh i worked with this group because they paid me uh i found that to be uh steven that was very influential i don't know if you're gonna be working with
Zain: i don't know if you're gonna be working with this group again oh
Corey: oh my god
SPEAKER_02: god
Corey: god no
SPEAKER_02: no
Corey: no
SPEAKER_02: no
Carter: no and uh you know they're they're my kind of people um the kind that pay the
SPEAKER_02: kind that pay the kind that pay every
Carter: kind that pay every
SPEAKER_02: every
Corey: every
Carter: every every month and
SPEAKER_02: every month and
Carter: and so i i worked with them and uh they're
Carter: they're really great people i really did enjoy working with them but they are two and a a half years into a mandate and they're not super popular and this was a by-election where they were replacing two of the left-leaning councillors um who had stepped down to one retired completely and the other one uh became an mla uh so this uh this by-election was you know to replace two left-leaning councillors uh we thought that uh abc vancouver was was uh which
SPEAKER_00: so this
SPEAKER_00: which is a group you fairly popular yeah
Carter: you fairly popular yeah
SPEAKER_00: yeah yeah
Carter: yeah and
Carter: and uh we were wrong uh they were not and uh you
Carter: you know we did a lot of advertising did a lot of science did a lot of brochure drops did a lot of you know all the things that you normally do did a lot of telephoning um but the truth is that it just didn't have the the ground game that we needed it didn't have the air war didn't stick uh there was no relationship with the media it was really a tricky campaign um and we got and the result was we got absolutely destroyed so
Zain: so okay we can talk about the lessons of why you lost although i think you've indicated already in some of this the analysis of you know what that looked like what was the coolest most interesting thing you did or the thing you did for the first time that you've been wanting to do that you did on this campaign it could be about people it could be a campaign tactic it could be as simple as how you structure things um
Zain: um what's something that you got to do new this time or
Zain: novel this time
Carter: novels a bit of a stretch but there was a we we did uh what i call the 250 meetings in 50 days right so the goal was five meetings a day instead of door knocking because
SPEAKER_00: the goal was
Carter: because in in you know like for example cory's
Carter: cory's running in confederation it is conceivable for him to door knock the entire war riding um you know in a period of time sorry did you say conceivable or inconceivable conceivable
Zain: sorry did you say conceivable or inconceivable conceivable with volunteers conceivable yeah
Carter: volunteers conceivable yeah
Zain: yeah yeah with volunteers yeah right it's
Carter: with volunteers yeah right it's it's reason it's reasonable size um the city of vancouver has a city-wide system so there is no way that we were going to be able to door knock uh
SPEAKER_02: so there is no
Carter: uh some 600 000 homes like it was just not
Carter: not going to happen i think it's actually more like 400 000 homes yeah the point
Corey: yeah the point is
Carter: point is the point is made we
Carter: we we simply could not door knock that number of doors especially when half of them are in towers. So we did this 250 meetings in 50 days. It went fairly well. But
Carter: in the end, we were meeting with people who didn't have a high enough give a fuck factor to really vote for us. They were happy to take the meetings but not happy to vote for us.
Zain: They were happy to
Zain: I'm very intrigued by this because for two reasons. The second I'll introduce in a moment that might have a tie into the ground game of campaigns across this country in this federal election. But the first part of it It was how
Zain: how did you set up these meetings? Were they of like influencer groups or people that could bring in voters? Were they just random meetings? Who was attending? And is this a political tactic you'd replicate? I'm curious about the nuts and bolts of it, Carter. Yeah.
Carter: I mean, so we met with Chinese benevolent groups. We met with Jewish groups. We met with regular people in their living rooms. We met with every group that had a meeting hall. We were at their meeting hall at some point. Every meeting that we did, we wanted it to be specific to our campaign. Did you set these meetings up
Zain: you set these meetings up on your own, or was this attending events and already existing? We set up the meetings on
Carter: We set up the meetings on our own. 250
Zain: own. 250 of those in 50 days on behalf of the two candidates on your ballot.
Carter: 250 of
Carter: behalf of
Carter: Right, and the two candidates attended every meeting. Ken Sim, the mayor, attended probably 80% of them. Really? His commitment was phenomenal. So he went to as many meetings as he could. we had meetings as small as five or ten people and as large as several hundred people. And it was basically meet and greets where the two outcomes were to raise a little bit of money and to get
SPEAKER_00: Really? His commitment was
Carter: people to get their friends out to vote. And the events themselves were successful, but the getting people out to vote was not successful.
Zain: Go ahead, Corey. Corey, I've got clarifying questions for Carter, too. Because the operation
Corey: Go
Carter: the
Corey: the operation was a success, but the patient died kind of energy there, right? Like, I'm curious, who
Corey: showed up, and
Corey: and were they already on your side? Were they undecided? Were they opposed? Like, I get why people would go to a meeting if the mayor is going to be there, too, I'll say. That's kind of why they showed up? I
Zain: That's kind of why they
Zain: I was wondering that, too. I think, actually,
Carter: too. I think, actually, that was the flaw
Carter: flaw in the plan. land i
Carter: think people went to go and see the mayor yes and they didn't go to facilitate
Zain: yes and they didn't go
SPEAKER_00: go to
Carter: facilitate any votes for us they they weren't motivated by
Carter: by the the by-election they were motivated by seeing and meeting meeting
Carter: meeting the mayor um
Carter: um and
Carter: the mayor is you know he's chinese
Carter: mayor he's he's very
Carter: very popular in the chinese community he had uh
Carter: uh the south asian community is very popular in south asian community um
Carter: um but we saw very low turnout from those two communities in the actual by-election were
Zain: were either Neither of your candidates from those communities?
Carter: Neither of the candidates. We had three, between me and the two candidates, we were indistinguishable.
Zain: and the
Carter: Absolutely indistinguishable. I
Corey: indistinguishable.
SPEAKER_02: indistinguishable. I
Carter: actually was mistaken for Jamie Stein, one of our candidates, two times.
SPEAKER_00: mistaken
Carter: It was not good. But
Carter: But
Carter: yeah, that was, you know, it was a successful operation, but it was not successful in the way that we'd want it to go. Yeah,
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
Zain: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'll let you explain to me in greater detail where the biggest fail points were. But I have a second part to this meeting question, which is you talked about Vancouver being inaccessible with half a million homes being in towers.
Zain: But was any part of this strategy for
Zain: you, Carter, the
Zain: meeting strategy, coming from the place that you've maybe lost a bit of faith on door-to-door direct contact? Tina
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Carter: I mean, well, first of all, we just couldn't even begin to understand where we would go with the door-to-door direct contact. It was a by-election. It was really short timelines. We weren't going to be in a position where door-to-door was going to be able to work. I'm not sure how Corey's finding door-to-door, but in the worst case scenario, it's one in 20 houses that opens the door and you're getting maybe one in two of those to commit to you. And also, there's a very real possibility of people just telling you that they're going to support you to your face and then not supporting you afterwards, which is part of what I ran into in Surrey. Right.
Carter: People I mean, if everybody who told us they were going to vote for us voted for us, we would have won in a landslide. And
Carter: And the same with Mike DeYoung.
Carter: Mike DeYoung in the B.C. liberal race, we had tons of identified vote and we got them out. they just chose to vote for someone else so
Carter: door knocking has its door knocking and direct contact has its pitfalls it
SPEAKER_02: door
Corey: door knocking has
Corey: does you know it's interesting i'm certainly getting more than one in 20 people at the doors but one of the things you um you notice is there
Corey: there i feel at least i'm curious your thoughts on this with so many people having even ring doorbells these days oh yeah if if they see who's coming and they don't want to talk to you they just won't come to the door and and
Carter: oh yeah if
Corey: and so it's the doors feel better than they would have felt in elections past simply because people select not to have the conversation at certain points right yeah
Carter: yeah i
Corey: yeah
Corey: i
Corey: i still think there's a big place for them and you know there are ways to test that commitment including asking them for things like taking a sign if that's the election you're doing i think those are important things still but there's
Corey: there's no question the nature of doors is changing the nature of conversations is changing and um and
Corey: and i think that's something that campaigns are going to have to grapple with for the next bit In some ways, Vancouver might be a little bit ahead on that curve simply because of the nature of it being a lot of condo towns. Density and
Zain: being a lot of condo towns. Density and
Zain: and all that sort of stuff.
Corey: Carter,
Zain: Carter, did this campaign introduce anything on the voter contact side for you that was either emulated or directly taken from some of those advances in like what door knocking looked like or the change in philosophies? And I'm thinking of stuff like deep canvassing and other things where you do spend a long time chatting with people. even in these meetings would you classify them as being meetings of depth and and and kind of substance or are they directly to the ask i'm kind of curious like if if if one type of meeting despite the fail of the campaign one type of meeting unearthed a different type of result sort of thing um because i find that fascinating just as well i'll tell you i
Corey: this campaign introduce
Carter: well i'll tell you i mean i think the the meetings thing was a heck of a lot more deep canvas like yeah and it was uh uh just a simple turn and burn in a good way or not in not
Zain: yeah and it
Zain: in a good way or not in not so productive way you think in
Carter: in a very productive way i mean most of the time we were leaving with people on side um but you
Zain: mean most of
Carter: know they weren't necessarily i mean they might have just been on side because the mayor was there they but at the end of the day um we weren't going to be deep canvassing the number of people that showed up to those meetings right those meetings were infinitely more productive than door knocking would have been. Our opposition did some door knocking. But most of the campaign was conducted with media relations, social media and advertising.
SPEAKER_00: those meetings
Corey: Yeah, well, so that's, I guess, the obvious question. What did the other guys do? Maybe they were always destined to win for other conditions. But what kind of tactics did you see the winning campaigns use? Well,
Carter: Well, and let's be clear, there were three campaigns that could have won, right? The Greens could have won the one city could have won well did win and uh cope could have won and and did win sean two people got
Zain: sean two people got two people got seats and they were both progressive parties is that correct carter yeah
Corey: got
Carter: got
Carter: yeah like one is a declared communist so he won he's the guy with cope um he's uh an interesting cat um little little personality
Carter: pieces
Carter: that we're not going to get into or unless i
Corey: unless i
Carter: i get sued um but the the uh
Carter: The
Carter: Greens didn't run a campaign at all.
Carter: The Greens didn't mount a campaign at all. We saw, I believe, one Green sign throughout the course
Carter: course of the election campaign.
Carter: One city did do some signage and they did do some posters and things. But Cope actually put up the most, you know, they plaster posters on these poles, telephone poles or lighting poles. They have these big round cylinders that they post posters on. can i ask you before you go
Zain: can i ask you before you go further it's a citywide race for two seats list of like 15 people that were like on the ballot if am i not am i right like around that what's
Corey: am i right
Corey: what's a spending limit what's a spending limit for that i'm
Zain: limit
Zain: limit what's
Zain: what's a
Zain: i'm curious if you're running a half a million persons like what do you what do you what do you get to play with you
Zain: get 120 415
Carter: get 120 415 dollars per candidate that's
Zain: that's not a lot
Carter: that's not a lot
Carter: lot no
Zain: no
Carter: it's bullshit is what it is it's absolute fucking bullshit it makes me so so angry why are we only getting 17 voter turnout well i'll tell you why because you won't let us fucking communicate with people you won't let us actually advertise to people i couldn't buy radio i couldn't buy television i couldn't buy um you know getting a brochure i was a fucking nightmare like
Zain: it's bullshit
Carter: like and
Carter: then they're shocked shocked i tell you we only got 17 of the population out to vote well
Carter: well i can't believe 17 of it fucking knew that there was an actual by-election like
Carter: like it is is bullshit they gave the electoral office two million dollars to plan the by-election and they get the candidates a couple hundred and twenty thousand bucks per and cope and and uh uh one city only ran one candidate they can only spend 120 grand and
Carter: and they kicked our ass we could spend 240 i'm
Corey: not feeling a lot of accountability from you right now steven yeah and
Zain: yeah
Zain: and
Corey: and
Zain: and
Corey: and
Zain: and uh by the way i'm
Corey: i'm
Carter: i'm not gonna lie to you i think that it's i think that there's some campaigns that i've run that
Corey: i'm not gonna lie to you i think
Carter: i could have run better right and we could have won i
Carter: think that if the three of us were running this campaign together with um with jesus christ himself we wouldn't have been able to pull this campaign off it
SPEAKER_00: wouldn't
Carter: was a it was not ours to win it was just not ours to win it's
Zain: it's a good rant so So
Corey: so So what did we learn? What's your big takeaway from this campaign? Before
Carter: So what did
Carter: Before
Zain: Before you answer, how
Carter: Before
Corey: Before you
Carter: you
Corey: you answer, how are you going to be a better you?
Zain: Before you jump in, Carter, I just want to talk to Colin directly. Stephen Carter is a different person than Corey Hogan, okay? Corey is a great candidate. Stephen is great at what he does, okay? But I just want you to know, Colin, I know you're listening. I hope you're enjoying it. We should gift Colin a free Patreon. Do you think we could do that, Corey? we probably
Zain: probably
Corey: probably should yeah we probably should that's good absolutely does
Zain: yeah we probably should that's good absolutely does that feel like you're
Carter: does that feel like you're bribing the guy who greenlit you yeah cory does that feel like i don't i
Corey: you're bribing
Corey: does that feel like i don't i don't know if he i don't know how the process works exactly he interviewed me i'm sure he's green lat he was
Zain: i'm sure he's green lat he was
Zain: was green lat
Corey: lat green lat yeah it's post tense now that's post tense it's green
Zain: yeah
Zain: it's
Zain: it's post
Zain: now that's post tense it's green lat um yeah i just want to let colin know that because he's probably like well okay well what did i make a mistake no you didn't you're fine everything's good everything's good we could just chill we
Zain: we could totally chill everything is it's fine thanks
Zain: yeah no problem appreciate that uh yeah we should also send him a free ticket to paint the town red uh paint paint paint
Corey: yeah no
Corey: appreciate
Corey: paint paint confed red thanks yeah hey is paint the town red dot
Zain: hey is paint the town red dot c available we should find out you should probably get it too because i might name the fundraiser that oh
Corey: the fundraiser that oh
Corey: oh
Corey: good great
Corey: great thank you hey carter thank you you're really helpful okay
Zain: okay
Zain: you are predestined to lose i get that you
Zain: did some interesting cool stuff um what
Zain: i'm usually interested in in these campaigns is um
Zain: not
Zain: not necessarily what the other side did to beat you but what you think your side could have done better to get the gains to maximize the gains you could have had not to win but to maximize so optimization of certain things where
Zain: where do you think that was that you don't have to throw people under the bus but you could also talk about yourself but uh but talk to me about optimization i'm really curious about that i
SPEAKER_02: yourself
Carter: yourself but
Carter: think our media relations was really poor and i'll own that in hindsight was
Zain: in hindsight was it just a pure media air war campaign could you have skipped skipped out on most of the ground you think i
Carter: think that we could have done well i mean basically we did i
Carter: i mean we put up signs using the reverse you know the no what
Carter: what
Carter: what was it the opt-out clause um the negative negative billing option um that's how i read about it in the paper
Zain: how i read about it in the paper yeah no that
Carter: that worked that worked out really well um we uh we we ran this more like an air war than we than it was as a ground game.
Carter: But honestly, when you look at how the vote turned out and where the vote came from, the
Carter: visible minority population was not engaged. I bought a lot of ethnic ads, but I think we could have done a lot more ethnic media, a lot more ethnic interviews. And, you know, that was probably one of the areas that we dropped the ball, as well as just general media interviews. years like um
Carter: you know we didn't go on ck and w i don't think once uh which is their big qr 770 style or you know talk radio station um you know why
Carter: well because we were avoiding talking about issues that may have been challenging to us and instead of going on and trying to control the narrative you
Corey: and instead of
Carter: know so that avoidance um created real problems i think for us as a as a campaign pain but uh
Carter: again i don't think it would have changed the outcome but it might have changed the way that we are perceived within the market um
Carter: um and the the market at this stage perceives abc vancouver as really the the fourth place almost fifth place uh party well i guess it was the fifth place party well
Corey: was the
Corey: well so that that's a that was one of my questions that was coming like what do you think are the long-term consequences of this by-election for well i'll tell you what
Carter: well i'll tell you what i was telling them at the beginning this is the beginning of their election campaign in 2026 if you win both seats then you're well on track to winning and holding on to the city council if you lose um both seats then then you're you've
Corey: 2026 if
Carter: got a hill to climb and and not only did we lose the the seats we lost them badly
Carter: so you know we beat the independents uh that were in hundreds of vote category yeah we got 8 000 votes the winners got 31 000 votes 33 000 votes um like we weren't within striking distance so if you're you know right did you know that did
SPEAKER_00: yeah we got 8 000
Zain: you know right did you know that did you know that though carter or was it kind of a surprise to you when you found out on election night i
Carter: i don't believe the word surprised has left my mouth uh uh we we you know there's certain things that that that tell you where you are? Yeah,
Zain: tell you where you are? Yeah,
Zain: Yeah, yeah, like what? Like what were the indicators of the fact that this was not going to necessarily, like a miracle would have been required to get one of the top two spots?
Carter: Well, I think that we can relate it a little bit to Corey's campaign. When you get volunteer engagement and you get money coming in through the door, then you are running a good campaign. You need both of those things to really say that the campaign is resonating with Gen Pop. up um we
Carter: we didn't have volunteer engagement and we had money we had money but
Carter: but we had money because we're the the government not because we were running a spectacular campaign you couldn't do i mean out beyond
SPEAKER_00: because
Zain: because we were
Zain: campaign you couldn't do i mean out beyond the 250 what were you going to do anyways too right like yeah well
Carter: well i mean yeah i mean we raised as much as we spent yeah
Carter: yeah right good for us isn't that isn't that wonderful but this really could have been a catalyst for starting to raise money for 2026 and some could argue should have been. You know, I don't think that Corey's going to turn off the taps when he reaches his max spend in Confederation. You raise money when you can raise money and elections are when you can raise money. It enables the spending in your constituency or in your party for the next few, because you need an executive director, you
SPEAKER_00: yeah
Zain: yeah right good
Zain: us isn't
SPEAKER_00: isn't
SPEAKER_00: and
SPEAKER_02: and some
Carter: you need a comms person for your party.
Carter: You pay them out of the money that you have surplus in your campaign. you
Carter: you don't you can't raise money now right
Carter: right like it's it's super hard i mean it's super hard to raise money i don't know if you're aware zane but there's a federal election um and it's dragging money out of the municipal markets that's
Zain: dragging
SPEAKER_02: dragging money
Zain: that's why i'm getting my calgary party gear ready i'm ready
Carter: i'll tell you calgary party's had a good week too i'm not going to talk about it calgary party given
Zain: calgary party given some of the separatist talk right on the money i like it i like it it's good I want Calgary to separate from Alberta when Alberta separates from Canada these
Carter: it's
Corey: it's good I
Corey: these are
Zain: are the things I believe and I'll be sharing with everyone on stage as a
Corey: I'll be sharing with everyone on stage as a guest of the campaign that's wonderful
Zain: paintconfedred.ca you can hear more of my theories my
Zain: theories will be available
Zain: oh look at the time
Corey: oh look
Corey: why are you even here I
Zain: are you even here I
Zain: I don't
Zain: know
Corey: know
Zain: know I
Corey: I got nowhere else to
Zain: to go. Do you feel like we held him accountable enough?
Corey: to go. Do you feel like we held him accountable
Corey: accountable
Zain: Carter, where did you fuck up the most? Let's get back to it. Where did you... Yeah, let's get to you. Okay, media relations. Is there any regret for taking the gig? Is there any regret for... Where do you kind of feel like, fuck, I learned something? You know, I'm good at what I do, but I learned something. Where did I fuck up the most?
Corey: relations.
Carter: Well, I think the biggest fuck up was not being able to come up with anything that would change
Carter: change the channel when we needed to change the channel and not being able to really
Carter: really jump, jump you know jump start us into something spectacular you know I think that you
Carter: know we weren't able to come up with a great slogan we weren't or or theme to the campaign because I don't like slogans but we didn't have a theme to the campaign we didn't have you know we were stuck in we've
Carter: we've done you know these are all the great things we've done in the past except no one believes them no one believes that all these great things were done by ABC and I wasn't able to come up with something that was better so we weren't able to communicate um
SPEAKER_00: one believes that all these great
Carter: um the potential of abc and
Carter: and i think that that was really the biggest failing uh
Carter: uh forget about what you've done in the past but what's the potential what are you going to get if you vote us back in what are you going to get then and that to me was was a great failing because the i think that people are as you may be aware i think that people are relatively selfish and uh their vote needs to be about what's in the future so that to me is uh you know the the problem okay
Zain: cory i'll let you ask one more question to stephen carter and then i think i need you to leave uh
Zain: uh this is like the game quiz show
Corey: game quiz show
Corey: show where uh
Zain: uh you put on your headphones and you get the fuck out and then we and carter and i can talk about what people actually want at the 34 minute mark you can actually
Corey: you put on your headphones and you get the fuck
Corey: we and carter
Corey: minute mark you can actually talk about federal politics yeah no
Zain: politics yeah no no for sure yeah
Corey: yeah yeah
Zain: yeah
Corey: we're gonna let him go we're
Carter: we're gonna let him go we're not gonna make his life life miserable no
Corey: you're gonna do that later he came
Zain: he came here to use the podcast to sell his fundraiser which he's roped us into basically wanted
Corey: podcast to sell his fundraiser which he's roped us into basically wanted to be fat formed oh my god it
Zain: oh my god it
Corey: it was that's not let's not discount the fact i also got to hear steven talk about losing a camera oh that's true that was probably very joyful yes two things yeah my
Zain: oh that's true that was probably very joyful yes two things
Zain: my new show is available at whatever this is dot ch sorry i don't mean to drop you let's get all
Corey: new show is available at whatever this
Corey: drop you let's get all the plugs out there any other plugs carter you got anything you want to plug uh
Carter: uh i'm a loser baby um that
Corey: was a great song by backpacking i know um you can listen to it while
Carter: i know um
Corey: you're paint confed red.ca i almost said painting confed red but then you probably have to you know i think you're gonna have to see the paint confed red okay here's what we're gonna do turn confed red where did paint come from turn confed red is the the domain shit i
Zain: to you know i think you're gonna have to see the paint
Zain: okay here's what we're gonna do turn
Corey: got a paint confed hey carter god damn carter carter
Carter: got
Zain: got a paint confed
Zain: hey carter god damn carter carter
Zain: this audio is going to be referred to if cory loses oh
Corey: yeah
Carter: yeah when did this happen at 34 minutes mark on episode uh 1859 is when it all fell apart paint you know what's saying
Corey: when
Corey: all fell apart
Corey: paint
Corey: paint you know what's saying i have no more questions paint turn
Zain: saying
Zain: paint
Zain: turn confed
Corey: confed
Zain: confed
Corey: confed red dot
Zain: dot
Corey: dot ca yeah
Zain: yeah
Corey: yeah
Zain: yeah
Corey: yeah it's where you can find good okay do you actually want
Zain: it's where you can find
Zain: okay do you actually want to give people a real because you actually made an earnest plea and I don't want to undercut that because you told me explicitly not to, but then you fucked up the domain
Corey: fucked up the domain name. And then I did. That's on you. Yeah.
Zain: I did. That's on you.
Corey: Again, I'll just say, if you do one thing, do this thing. We can do this thing. We can do this. We work together, we win.
Corey: And with that,
Zain: da
Corey: da
Zain: da
Corey: da
Zain: da
Corey: da
Zain: da-da
Corey: -da-da-da
Zain: -da-da
Corey: -da
Zain: -da-da.
Corey: -da. Later,
Zain: Later, Hogan. Okay, Carter, he's gone. So, man,
Zain: so many things. Let's boil it down this way. Two topics, 15 minutes. Okay? Sure. Topic number one, carny is coming to calgary uh pauliev is as we speak tonight um packing anywhere between 10 to 15 000 people in edmonton yeah
Zain: let's start there um
Zain: um the
Zain: events
Zain: events don't seem to be a rebuttal for the polls but
Zain: man are they still fucking impressive and they're growing so tell me what's happening like is this entering a wave beyond politics that's not going to have a political impact that people are just going to go see the act like Pierre's in town and we got to go see the best of is this related to the politics and we're going to be surprised like what is your years of experience strategist gut sense telling you that these two things are divorced that this guy's just
Zain: happens to be running for prime minister while putting on rock concerts across the country and it's not going to have impact on his polling or that a and b definitely converge at some point and over I think
Carter: over I think that these events are not replacements for polling polling right i think that polling does something completely different but let's be very clear about the number of people who have a super high give a fuck factor um there is a huge group of people for whom the give a fuck factor is really high and they're going to those those rallies they're going to those events and they're hearing from
Carter: uh
Carter: uh from pierre poliev because that's what they want to do that's what they find finding entertaining right now going
Carter: going to these events has now become um
Carter: um you know part of the conservative experience but
Carter: but i think that it's two
Carter: two percent of the population right
Carter: they were going to vote conservative anyways it's not like it's changing anybody's mind because the event uh you know how many concerts are held in the city of calgary that you and i don't know anything about right that fills and they can bring 20 000 people yeah
Corey: it's not like it's
Zain: and they can bring 20 000 people yeah
Carter: yeah and it's like 20 000 people and you're like what the fuck was that you
Carter: you know who the fuck is
Zain: who the fuck is jelly roll that's still a question i have it's
Carter: question i have it's
Carter: it's still a question i didn't even know it was a question uh
Carter: uh you know this this is um these events are drawing the the hardcore and the the heart there are a lot of hardcore but mark carney's event you know in one day um is going to draw you know 25 through to 2500 to 3000 people in a day yeah yeah so you know how long has it been advertised how long you know how much effort are they putting into it um you know i i i
Zain: in a day yeah yeah so
Carter: never liked big events in in politics because i find that big events in politics don't actually generate new votes um they take a lot of time to implement and execute but they don't find any new votes they only find the old pre
Carter: pre-existing 100 already with you voters and
Zain: the dynamics of this race could we look back and say pierre was a genius to have these massive events to ensure his base remained as sticky as possible, because that liberal vote didn't necessarily go to the conservatives, but it was just soft and didn't show up in the way that the polling indicated. Is there wisdom in the strategy to make your vote as hardened, where Pierre might be reaching
Zain: a new conservative ceiling in his vote? This is a pretty high number for Pierre in terms of where the CPC are currently polling. Usually they hover around in the low to mid 30s. He's hitting 38, eight thirty nines on the national averages so could you just say well listen we may not be able to compete with the liberals right now but if we make sure our vote is super hard and bank on theirs being just a bit soft elections ours what do you think of that yeah
Carter: i mean i think is that like wishful thinking
Zain: is that like wishful thinking like i'm not i'm not hearing this from conservatives in my circles to be honest but i'm just kind of reacting to what you're what you're suggesting here and saying like could this this be a a theory that that might have some wisdom behind it
Carter: um i
Carter: don't know how's
Carter: how's
Carter: how's that first shitty answer um i just don't know i think that there's there's um ready
SPEAKER_00: there's there's
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SPEAKER_00: think you're hardening the wrong
Carter: wrong group.
Carter: know, I think if you're going to make something hard, you start at the base and you work your way all the way to the tip.
Carter: And if you can work from the base to the tip. Okay,
Zain: the base to the tip.
Zain: Okay, just okay. Thank you, Carter. Thank you. Thank you. But
Carter: But right now, polyevs only work in the base, and you're just not going to get there, you know? You're not going to get to the end result if you just work the base.
Zain: this count as the same podcast that Corey was on earlier?
Carter: Oh, totally.
Zain: Okay, good. I just want this mention to be the same one where paint, is it turn or paint?
Carter: want this mention to be the same one
SPEAKER_00: where paint,
Carter: Paint.
Carter: I don't know.
Carter: Turn confed red. It
Carter: was paint, and then it became turn.
Zain: was paint, and then
Carter: It's turn confed red.
Zain: Okay. No,
Carter: No, I don't think it is. This pink can fed red sounds better.
Zain: No, I don't think it is.
Zain: agree, and I don't know which one it is either. It's fine. It's fine. Just as long as your phallic analogy as well as- You know, if he doesn't win,
Carter: as well as- You know, if he doesn't win, and it comes back to this podcast, we're
SPEAKER_02: back to this
Carter: going to have some guilt issues. I mean, not a lot, because we don't care that much. Well, he
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
Zain: mean, not a lot,
SPEAKER_02: lot,
Zain: he
Carter: he
Zain: he can record a nice, solid, clean bumper. Let him do that. Let
Zain: him do that. Why
Carter: Why would we let him do that? He's probably in bed already.
Zain: That's true.
Zain: Lazy, lazy candidate. Carter, I've
Zain: I've
Zain: said this is the most important week for the conservatives. The stock market is, you know, tumbling like a motherfucker. Friday was worse than today, and we record here today on a Monday. There
Zain: seems to be no shifting off of the Trump question, although they're trying, they're trying, they're trying. They're putting out ads that are going after the Trump question. They seem to have some targeted spots, including one where Pierre is driving this Corvette around a racetrack with his wife, which has its
Zain: own vibe, and you could see the message in terms of who it's for. um what
Zain: sort of shift if you were in the conservative war room or if you were team jenny burn would you be looking for this week like we we're all kind of talking about this is the make or break week but i don't think people understand what are practitioners actually looking
Zain: for right what are practitioners actually looking for um
Zain: um in momentum change and in a turnaround style week because it could be less or more than what gen pop thinks needs to happen in order for something to be a turnaround so this is what i kind of wanted to spend the final few minutes here which is if
Zain: if we're on this campaign what are we looking for this week well
Carter: you know what to be honest uh i think that they might even be looking for something as simple as um did you see that shitty ad that you know that pierre polliev did that at least would be be a talking point that puts Pierre Polyev in the front of the front of people's minds right now like in 2010 when I and I've told this story so many times but in 2010 it was always have you heard of this Nenshi guy that's
Carter: that's what we wanted to see that's what we wanted to hear what
SPEAKER_00: wanted to see that's
Carter: what Pierre Polyev needs is that someone at some point actually says what
Carter: what do you think of Pierre Polyev what
Carter: what are you thinking about Pierre Polyev what
Carter: what the what he's getting so far is have
Carter: have you heard to that mark carney guy are
Carter: are you watching that mark carney campaign have
Carter: have you seen mark how much mark carney's numbers have changed you
Carter: you know and pierre polliev is you
Carter: you know desperate with the events he's you know maybe he can get somewhere with this i think it's a tragic ad but i don't imagine that i'm part of the target audience um but you know and everybody that seems to have seen it seems to be uh uh make it an issue right which one is this is
Zain: which one is this is this the change is coming down the track the speed down the track yeah yeah the corvette ad yeah yeah i
Carter: down the track yeah yeah
Carter: don't understand that at all do you get it
Zain: um yeah
Carter: yeah
Zain: yeah i do i think um he looks good he looks manly he looks like he's got a really cool wife um there's a level of um
Zain: 30
Zain: 30
Zain: 30 40 50 year old dude being like that guy's kind of my vibe i'm not sure if it's purely like aspirational like like i wish he would he had had what he had but it's
Zain: it's kind of i
Zain: get it i get it it doesn't have and it's also like it's political messages does he need to
Corey: it's
Carter: it's also like it's political messages does he need to solidify men like the gender gap is already massive okay
Zain: gap is
Zain: so you know what i i i think he might you're
Carter: you're going to come back to hardening again i
Zain: you're
Zain: going to come back to
Zain: think he might i think he's in the situation right now where there's
Zain: two ways if he hardens okay
Carter: two ways if he hardens okay
SPEAKER_02: okay
SPEAKER_02: okay
Zain: okay
SPEAKER_02: okay
Zain: okay so then
SPEAKER_02: then let Let me ask.
Carter: You can't win if he makes it so hard that no one else can join in, right?
Zain: You can't win
Carter: It
Carter: has to be hard enough. I'm
Carter: I'm letting you go at this
Zain: I'm letting you go at this one alone, which you'd be very used to.
Carter: Oh, yeah. I mean, if it's super hard and you're going at it alone, it's no problem. But he wants to have others join in.
Zain: Oh, yeah.
Carter: And when you want to have others join in, sometimes having it super hard is a little intimidating.
SPEAKER_02: And
Zain: And when
SPEAKER_02: when you want
Zain: it?
Carter: I believe so, yeah.
Zain: Carter, keeping you on track. Here we go. By the way, change is coming down the track, I should mention. Listen, okay, this
Zain: this is similar, though. If you take that ad, though, and you don't understand it, and my theory to you is that this is to pretty much solidify the group of men, because I honestly, both
Zain: both on the surface and thinking it through a bit, do not see an audience beyond that,
Zain: right? Dudes, like just dudes. But
Zain: then you also look at another act that they took today, which is Stephen Harper coming coming out of retirement, which might sound like a casual thing. It is not. He has not done anything for the past two candidates, recorded a video for one, showing up and introducing Pierre at a rally today. You could look at that as an offensive move or a defensive move. And my default is to look at that as a defensive move, which is they
Corey: which
Carter: which is
Corey: is they
Carter: they
Zain: they needed Harper, right? Every time you see a big name come out in campaign, and we're used to this in the American context, I always think of that that is defensive posture, right?
Zain: right? Like you couldn't get the job done. The surrogate sort of intro or the surrogate sort of rally, to me, is always on a defensive posture. So to
Zain: me, I think this is a group that pure strategy, this next little while may have been, I'm going to pivot a little, I'm
Zain: going to harden my group and my base, make sure they're as engaged that voting is something that they are looking forward to do and they do. And then maybe I rely upon the gods a bit alongside some of my negative uh that that carney's vote isn't as soft as the the mid-40s he's getting in certain polls and then there's
Zain: our race like i it's a it's a working theory i'm
Zain: i'm not sure it's a successful one no
Carter: no i mean if you're playing defense and you're behind you're really fucked right
Carter: you need to be playing offense when you're behind and uh right
Carter: now the only have you seen any new negative from
Zain: have you seen any new negative from him have you seen any new negative from him that that is maybe it's completely hidden from like the the youtube universe but at that being said youtube is taken away from these folks right like no partisan paid content on youtube because that would probably be the fastest quickest turnaround way to get stuff out is paying stuff on on youtube so they might be using meta i can't find anything that's new that's attacking carney in a unique way beyond the the the the list of things they've had going for the the last number of weeks um
Carter: seen any
Zain: um so i'm not sure what their offensive game is right now i
Carter: don't think they have one and they can't and they can't rely on the ndp
Zain: can't and they can't rely on the ndp the ndp are trying to go negative on carney to fight for their own survival but i don't think you can rely and boost the ndp content to be to kind of be the you
Zain: you know the marker that takes carney down what
Carter: what if they're just waiting for the debates what
Carter: if you tell me
Zain: you tell me you think that's a serviceable strategy right now like you think you tell pierre being like do a bit of a pivot try a few things out we're gonna have to take him down with
Zain: with one viral moment at the debate
Carter: that's essentially what i would be doing it
Carter: it doesn't have to be one viral moment i think that he can just dominate the debate you know i think that he can be a super strong uh candidate and and try and push it that way
Zain: pierre
Carter: pierre paliev has not been tested with a real debate at the federal level even though we all quote unquote know him so well so
Zain: pierre
Zain: so carter the final thing i want to talk to you about um and
Zain: it's creeping up it's not like like
Zain: at like a a 10 on the volume scale because if it was its own crisis that i think the conservatives could take advantage of but it's liberal arrogance it's like liberals on panel shows measuring the drapes kind of like how polyev folks have been doing for the last 18 months it's the the comments that this thing is over etc etc beyond the obvious do you feel like that is a a potential like strategic thing that could be hit upon right now that the liberals getting getting overconfident? Or is that like a meta inside the bubble inside an Ottawa sort of thing? Or do you think liberal arrogance in this moment in time has any play or mileage? And could you, as
Corey: months it's the the
Zain: as a strategist working for the conservatives, mold something there from that or not so much in your mind?
Carter: Liberal arrogance is the Achilles heel of the Liberal Party. And it is always there, it will always be there to be taken advantage of. And if Pierre Polyev wants to take advantage of of it it's he can uh the problem is that pierre paliev comes across as such an arrogant ass that it's harder to make a case of um you know liberal arrogance when he's coming across as an arrogant asshole he's
Zain: not the right messenger he's
Carter: the wrong messenger for that message pierre reasonably could
Zain: reasonably could jugmeet reasonably take that line on what's his what's his um if there's a there there why can't jugmeet carry that uh particular argument because jugmeet is also
Carter: argument because jugmeet is also the He's also the wrong messenger, Zane. I mean, you're looking at two campaigns that have the wrong messenger at the wrong time.
Carter: Pierre Palliev is just the wrong guy to be up against a Trump
SPEAKER_02: Pierre Palliev
Zain: Palliev
Carter: Trump wave and Mark Carney at this particular moment in time. And Jagmeet Singh is probably three years past his best before date.
Zain: We're going to leave it there, Carter. That's a wrap on episode 1859 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velju with me as always, Stephen Carter. And the, what do you call them? Sponsored content?
Zain: The
Carter: The branded
Zain: branded content?
SPEAKER_00: branded
Carter: branded
Carter: content? Paint, turn, make. The
Zain: partisan
Carter: partisan
Zain: partisan content of Corey Hogan. And
Carter: partisan content of
Zain: we shall see you next time.