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Zain: is The Strategist, episode 1852. My name is Zane Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan. And of course, there is the traveling salesman, Stephen Carter. Where do we find you, Carter? today
Carter: i am in a hovel i believe it is uh it is uh
Carter: a different type of room than i've been in in the past same hotel yeah
Corey: yeah very
Carter: very different uh living yeah accommodation
Corey: accommodation so for the listeners out there can
Zain: can i can i tell you something yeah go ahead cory and then i've got a i've got a very uh keen observation but please you first gray unfurnished
Carter: can
Corey: can i
Corey: observation but please you first gray unfurnished wall uh microwave prominently displayed in set yeah
Zain: yeah they're
Corey: they're firing you from this campaign the
Zain: they're firing
Zain: the the the room the room quality going down yeah from where it was last time which was uh i'm gonna i'm gonna you know i'm gonna say what within meters of your local fire and paramedic service uh to where it is now which is they have boxed you in yeah you you are this is this is on the path to being out carter we've seen this before No,
Corey: which is they have boxed
Carter: we've seen this before No,
Carter: No, I've got their... They said to me just yesterday, they've got 100% confidence in me.
Zain: I've got their... They
Corey: Oh, okay.
Corey: That's good.
Carter: Yeah,
Zain: Yeah,
Carter: Yeah, that feels good. Connor, your room has no windows. Your room has
Corey: Connor, your room has
Zain: has no
Zain: has
Carter: has no
Zain: no
Carter: no windows. It's
Carter: true. I'm in a room with no windows.
Zain: Corey, have you ever gotten a hotel room with no windows? No, no. There was a time in Ottawa
Carter: was a time
Corey: time
Carter: time
Corey: time in Ottawa
Carter: Ottawa we forgot to book a hotel room. Was that Zane or you who had to sleep on the... Oh, no, that was me. That
Corey: Ottawa we
Zain: we
Corey: we
Corey: who had to sleep on the... Oh, no, that was me. That was not... No, no, no, no. different i did have a really bad hotel room in ottawa where we forgot to book that is true forgot to
Carter: not... No, no, no,
Zain: to book or you thought you'd get super lucky booking last minute it was a
Corey: super lucky booking last minute it was a last minute thing and then i booked i can't remember but i ended up at this like um it
Corey: was clearly not originally a hotel and i think if there was a window there it was probably looking
Corey: into like an interior courtyard that was also without windows i would be carter
Zain: carter not only do i think they want you off the campaign i think they don't want your remains to be found okay
SPEAKER_00: okay that's
Zain: that's
SPEAKER_00: that's what this hotel indicates
Zain: indicates
SPEAKER_00: indicates
Zain: indicates to me is that it's like oh it would be unfortunate if there were a fire and no way out because
SPEAKER_00: indicates to
Carter: to
Zain: because there's no windows in this room i
Carter: because there's no windows in this
Carter: i got quoted in an article again and that's probably the end of me yeah
Zain: and that's probably the end of me yeah yeah
Carter: yeah yeah
Zain: yeah
Corey: yeah you wait can we talk about this i have not seen this hey just said they should just uh look at the rules and be creative i think that was your quote right that was my quote that's a good quote what
Zain: that's a good quote what was your okay can you give us some context i'm giving you some free air time to pump up the fact that you've you've you've been quoted somewhere we
Carter: we did We did a – so Vancouver Sun and the Globe and Mail both interviewed me about – we did a negative option sign thing because
Carter: no one answers their telephones anymore, kids. And so we did that, and I'll
Carter: I'll tell you, chaos ensued. A lot
Zain: I'll tell you,
Zain: lot of signs went up. Chaos ensued. Sorry, can you tell me what this is? Can you just explain this to me? What is this negative – what do you know what it is? You remember the old days when – You know what it is.
Carter: signs went up. Chaos ensued. Sorry, can you tell me
Carter: know what it is? You remember the old days when – You know what it is.
Carter: Yeah, corporations used to do this to you. They'd say, if we don't hear from you, we're going to increase your rates. right and we're going to sell you this new product and uh i think of rogers and you know the cable companies were notorious for this anyways that was called negative option billing and in sign land what it basically is is in
Carter: i send you a series of emails that say by the end if you don't if you don't opt out we're going to install a sign on your line what
SPEAKER_03: by the
Carter: i
Zain: i
Carter: i
Zain: i
Carter: love
Zain: love
Carter: love this
Zain: this because
Carter: because
Zain: because
Zain: because i love
Carter: because i love
Carter: love
Zain: love this for you sorry let me rephrase i love this for you you anyways
Zain: anyways so you of
SPEAKER_05: anyways
Carter: anyways
SPEAKER_05: anyways so
Carter: so
SPEAKER_05: so
Zain: of course it's so you yo
Carter: course
SPEAKER_05: course it's so you
Zain: yo what has anyone done this before well
Zain: it's been done before okay
Zain: okay okay and how did it go i've actually beyond the quotes uh and the and the media what was the goal of it and how did it go well
Carter: well we had we had about 2.5 rejection rate early you know with people emailing back saying don't don't give me the sign and then we had about a 0.1 percent rejection once we installed
Zain: so wait you installed signs on what hundreds of lawns and just like assuming consent two thousand oh
Carter: so wait you
Zain: my god cory you you're closing your eyes and shaking your head uh is this the fact that i'm talking about this or the fact that you it's the you object to
Corey: that you it's the you object to this actual strategy it makes me sad yeah
Zain: to this actual strategy
Zain: yeah but didn't i summarize it correctly i love this for you carter 95 of the people so
Corey: didn't i summarize
Zain: so
Carter: so we had a
Zain: a list of 2 000 signs
Carter: a list of 2 000 signs we had a list of 2 000 signs you know how hard it is to contact 2 000 people you
Carter: have any idea okay so i need
Zain: okay so i need i need some context here these are 2 000 people who in the past have taken a sign taken a sign in the past
Carter: a sign taken a sign in the past yeah okay i'm less offended okay
Zain: offended okay actually that's that's
Corey: that's a little better yeah
Carter: yeah they've taken a sign uh two and a half years ago for the for the for the election so we were contacting people who had already had a sign it wasn't like i was just going to your house knocking your door and it's like you're not home so i'm installing a sign but
Zain: but now you got to be impressed with that conversion rate to be able to increase the pool a bit for you yeah
Carter: you yeah i mean fuck it i put out another thousand this weekend no one knows about that yet so
Zain: so you were quoted the globe you were quoted the globe about this like because people kicking up
Carter: quoted the globe about this
Carter: people kicking
Zain: up a storm yeah
Carter: i said that they were politically challenged the
Carter: the people who were opposing this idea politically
Carter: how did i miss this
Zain: how did i miss this
Zain: this
Carter: this i
Zain: i
Carter: i don't know i don't know but i'm kind of a big deal out here in vancouver now you gotta now you're in a room
Zain: i don't know i
Zain: now you're in a room without windows in a building that will more than likely 100
Carter: 100 full
Carter: full confidence okay
Zain: good okay good i'm glad i'm glad that's the situation with you cory um now i don't see any windows present in in your home that's true but i suspect there are there's there you go okay good thank you thank you for confirmation yeah
Carter: i'm glad
Corey: cory
Carter: cory um
Corey: um
Corey: home that's true but i suspect there are there's there you go okay good thank you thank you for confirmation yeah
Zain: yeah
Corey: yeah that
Zain: yeah
Zain: that
Corey: that
Zain: that
Corey: that
Zain: that people in
Corey: in your home want you to live uh you're doing well otherwise i am yeah i got to hear this story that steven had it made me feel better about the choices i've made in my life that led me here as opposed to wherever he is whatever bunker he's broadcasting from 100
Carter: 100 full confidence
Zain: full confidence
Zain: uh let's move it on gents let's move it on to our first and perhaps our only segment choices choices choices for
Zain: mr mark carney let's talk I want to talk about choices in three different ways. First, I want to talk about the choices that Mr. Carney made. Prime Minister Carney, we're going to have to get used to that. Indeed, that is what it is. Prime Minister Carney made for his cabinet. I then want to talk about, gents, the choices he made to message that cabinet and that initial sort of round of press coverage that he did, because I think there's some strategist questions in there. And then let's spend the final third of the show talking about the choices in front of him for what he does next. And I really want to focus on the unique sort of angle and the unique sort of things we could bring to the table, talking about message, brand, how he should position day one, etc. etc. He's launched six weeks ago. Does he need to launch again? Or two months ago? Does he need to do another launch card? Stuff like that, that I want to talk about in the third segment. But let's talk about choices round one. Corey, I'll start with you. Some surprising choices. Smaller cabinet was projected. It is smaller, but it's not tiny. A different cabinet was projected. It is different-ish, but it's of the same players, no outside players. And some key omissions, so to speak. What did you make of the first choice that Mark Carney had in front of him, which was his cabinet? I
Carter: Indeed,
Corey: guess I was surprised by how conservative it was, like small C conservative, not radical in any way, shape or form. Probably the most noteworthy thing was the size, which, but for a little blip somewhere in the aughts, is the smallest cabinet since the 80s, I believe. That means something, maybe even the 70s. And it does talk about a different type of leadership and a different type of governance. Presumably the cabinet ministers, when there's fewer of them, will have more power. I think that that's a good thing. i've certainly been critical of people who've gone the other way and made everybody a fucking critic or a cabinet minister so i have no real qualms with this i think it's fine but the idea that you would just go and pick um from your existing caucus mostly your existing cabinet and almost exclusively people who supported you in the leadership tells me in some ways this was this was the most traditional cabinet making we've seen in a long time like didn't seem that fuss with gender equity although most of the powerful ministers are women didn't seem that fussed with um you know with uh regional balance and um i'm sure we'll get into that because alberta of course got a got a big goose egg on the board there and um in
Carter: means something, maybe
Zain: some ways
Corey: that way i think it was quite a traditional cabinet right in fact it's it's a cabinet that looks a lot more like in the 60s and 70s than it does in the odds and teens carter
Zain: more like in the
Zain: carter
Corey: there's
Zain: there's many sub choices that we can talk about Violent choice is going to be my whole framing of this episode.
Corey: But
Zain: But what did you make of the overall choice? And then let's get into some of the questions that I think are interesting around some of the sub-choices that he made, regionality, specific people, gender, et cetera. What do you make of the overall composition?
Carter: composition? I mean, aside from the obvious exclusion of Corey Hogan, I'm disappointed by this cabinet, to be honest. I am disappointed by the cabinet. I'm disappointed that George Chahal wasn't in the cabinet. I'm disappointed that there wasn't a bunch of new blood brought into the cabinet. I think that that had more to do with the rush of becoming a cabinet and naming a cabinet as soon as possible. That, to me, was the driving consideration of the cabinet was how do we get the cabinet ministers in as quickly as possible and not how do we get the best possible cabinet for the election? So I'm disappointed. I think the regional balance, forget about regional balance. Let's talk instead about making sure that we have reasonable competitiveness. You know, there's a very real chance that you don't have any liberal seats from Alberta in the next election. I'd be wanting to shore that up.
Zain: aside from the
Corey: I'm
Zain: I'm
Carter: And I'm just disappointed because I think that the answer was, let's put this in as quickly as possible. That means that we don't have a lot of time for vetting. So we're going to go with the people who are already on the vetted list.
Corey: Yeah,
Corey: that was certainly the sense I got, too, right? I suspect they, just even based on the reporting and some of the musings that were out there, that maybe at least for a hot minute, they considered doing something different with the cabinet, maybe even pulling people in from outside of the cabinet. Certainly, we saw some reporting on that, but then ultimately decided it's
Carter: Certainly, we saw
Corey: it's not really going to work for us and probably came down for logistical concerns, as these things often do, to be frank. But that's kind of the heart of my, this is a very conservative cabinet point, right? They said, that might be a little difficult, so let's do the thing that's not particularly difficult. And I don't know. I mean, that tells us something about Mark Carney. It shouldn't be surprising. He's a former central banker. But if you're a liberal thinking he's going to throw out absolutely everything that's ever been done and do an entirely new type of politics, I suspect you're going to be disappointed. His new will likely be what politics looked like 40 years ago. And maybe that will be refreshing to us after the last couple of decades of soundbite politics. But it's not going to be revolutionary.
Corey: Corey, why do
Zain: do you think Joshua Hull is not in the cabinet? First caucus member to endorse him. Launch happened in his, quote unquote, jurisdiction of Alberta. Gave the opening speech to him. But here he is, not in cabinet.
Corey: Surprised me. Did it surprise you? It did surprise me. It seemed like it would be a pretty easy addition to make. But there
Corey: may have been other considerations. They may have worried about the caucus dynamics that that would introduce, given that George had been one of the people who had been critical of Justin Trudeau earlier than everybody else. And so maybe there was a group of Trudeau loyalists who thought that would just be absolutely a no-go for them. Maybe there was a challenge with vetting either time or they found something that warranted further conversation. I'm not saying there was. In fact, I doubt it in terms of like the vetting likes further thing. But that's always a possibility with these things. You've got to think about Andrew Leslie, for example. Everyone thought he'd be in cabinet.
Corey: We don't know why he wasn't, but certainly the rumors for a long time have been there was something. And, you know, when you do these things, there's never any that's like, therefore they cannot be in cabinet. But often this causes us concern. We'd want you to kind of self-report this, whatever it may be, right? Maybe there were some hiccups there. And, you know, maybe it was just decided that it just wasn't worth the pain in terms of dealing with those considerations. That's my guess, right? I don't think that there's been a falling out between Carney and Shahal. That, to me, seems unlikely. Might
Corey: be the catalyst for one, but I don't think that there was anything that changed, you know, Mark Carney's thinking of George Shahal in the leadership contest. scientist
Zain: scientist
Zain: carter it was very much a cabinet of people who helped me get here yet george hall's not on the list what's what's going on i
Carter: i don't know i think that it was all about vetting i i really do i think that and i don't think it was about vetting turning something up i think it was we're doing this four days from now how are we going to make sure that we get the right possible cabinet oh
Carter: oh okay well we'll just take the existing cabinet add a couple and call it a day well and those couple may
Corey: well and those couple may have been vetted in the round last time right that's the thing you've got to to keep in mind exactly faces may have been previously vetted when justin trudeau was thinking about his cabinet back last summer or
Carter: exactly faces may
Corey: summer before there was
Carter: summer before there was probably a list of people that they could reach from they reached from that list and uh they they dramatically shrunk the cabinet in part to say um you know this is a smaller cabinet so not everybody's going to be in it but just you wait it'll it'll be okay after the election when we when we name our actual governing cabinet this is this is just an election cabinet don't worry about it it's not actually sending any real messages to the population or anything like that yeah
Zain: no in order to get that joke you can tune into our um completely uh well-aged patreon episode um that didn't that age that held
Corey: that held up okay i think in the final summary you're
Corey: not gonna hate it yeah yeah
Zain: no okay well
Corey: okay well
SPEAKER_03: well
Corey: well
Zain: well it's a choreographed guarantee hey listen uh let's keep talking about other choices is carter strategic mistake not to have anyone what was it west of something like west of some
SPEAKER_03: well it's
Zain: ontario place like i no one and so no one in manitoba let's we can even do the math ourselves no one in manitoba no
SPEAKER_02: no one in manitoba no
Zain: saskatchewan no
Zain: no alberta any
Carter: no alberta any
Zain: any
Carter: any
Carter: bc one in bc i can't remember one in bc okay
Zain: bc
Zain: one in
Zain: bc i can't remember one in bc okay
Zain: so one from those four province is that a strategic mistake or do you do you in
Zain: your heart of hearts not give a shit no
Carter: no it's a big mistake i mean for
Carter: for me this thing is all going going to boil down to the lower mainland of British Columbia. I mean, let's say you pick up a couple of seats in Saskatchewan or a couple of seats in Alberta. That's great. That's all wonderful. Isn't that exciting? We picked up two more seats. But the lower mainland of British Columbia is ripe
SPEAKER_01: great. That's all wonderful.
Carter: for, you know, going conservative. It's also ripe for going liberal. I mean, it's going to be an absolute battleground in the next election. And why you wouldn't want to buttress against the the the coming force of of conservatism by putting in it's just a couple of cabinet ministers again if it only gives you a two-point bounce for that individual cabinet minister that two-point bounce could make a massive difference um plus you have things that you can actually do uh i mean
Carter: mean it doesn't look like this cabinet's actually going to be announcing anything or doing very much it's all going to come from the prime minister's office um for the next next week. But nonetheless, it still would have been very helpful, I think, to have had at least two or three more cabinet ministers west of the Ontario-Manitoba border.
Zain: Corey, strategic mistake, or you don't really give a crap that we don't have coverage for those three provinces? Real policy. I
Corey: policy. I
Corey: don't think it's like a fatal mistake, but I do think it is part of a worldview that is outdated, right? The west of this country, in terms of size, population-wise, economy it's shifted big time like bc and alberta there's more people in these two provinces than there are in quebec right the dynamics of this country has shifted and i'm not i mean you just have to turn on cbc the national to get that the laurentians don't always understand that right that's that's a reality i'm going to put on my aggrieved alberta hat for a minute here but it's true you do not always get that recognition that the balance of the country has shifted west and uh it
Carter: and uh
Corey: is consistent with a cabinet that was built like it was in the 60s and the 70s that's about all i can say for it in a neutral sense it doesn't make sense to me you wouldn't give at least some consideration to regions especially when you consider how titchy these regions are right we don't like to be forgotten we're well aware we're regularly forgotten and so it's not doing the liberals any favors but it is a 50-day contract but there were challenges challenges with the, you know, putting in some of the Alberta people, potentially. And so I guess it is what it is, right? Mark Carney ultimately decided he wanted a cabinet that, that he could trust to do no harm, seems to be the mantra here. And for
Corey: whatever reason, he decided some of the other choices might harm him. I
Zain: want
Corey: want to talk about the other
Zain: other two pillars of choices shortly. So Carter, I'm going to go quickly on this. The choice of giving Gilboa an upgrade, as
Zain: you have, have. And also the change in heritage, which I think is interesting, like the Ministry of Heritage now to cultural identity. Can we talk about that for a second, the strategy there on both fronts, the change in the nomenclature, as well as taking environment away from Guilbeau, but making him your Quebec lieutenant for reasons
Corey: talk about
Zain: I think are pretty apparent in terms of his popularity in Quebec still being quite strong. What do you think of that? I don't want to go through everyone gilbo is an interesting one to me gil
Carter: gil gilbo is interesting but keep in mind the champagne and jolie also endorsed uh mark carney right like there is a significant sure and he gets
Zain: sure and he gets finance and she keeps foreign affairs just for people but there's a there's
Carter: for people but there's a there's
Carter: there's a significant um
Carter: quebec contingent uh now in fairness quebec is going to you know if if the liberals are going to form anything vaguely resembling a government um quebec and ontario are going to have to go liberal um but
Carter: so does the lower mainland of british columbia anyways and i'm kind of i'm not sure that gibbo got a uh an
Carter: upgrade to quebec you know like i was gonna say he was fairly significant does not feel like a promotion in the environment tell me why tell
Corey: like i was gonna say he was fairly significant does not feel like a promotion in the environment
Corey: environment tell me why tell
Corey: tell
Corey: tell me why yeah
Corey: yeah
Carter: yeah it yeah
Corey: yeah and look i mean the environment you actually do shit
Carter: mean the environment you actually do shit in heritage you just exactly it
Carter: was heritage you got right like you just you make sure that the cbc heritage relabeled
Corey: cbc heritage relabeled to cultural Cultural identity. Yeah, that's right. A couple of other things appended to it as well. But look, I think here's
Carter: Yeah, that's right. A couple of other
Carter: to it as well. But look,
Carter: here's
Corey: here's the reality. There's going to be a lieutenant for each of these provinces. Lieutenants don't, that's not a cabinet position, right? That's saying like, you're my guy or you're my gal, right? For this very particular geography here.
Carter: geography here.
Corey: And I think it's a bit of a lame consolation prize, frankly. The spin goes
Corey: the other way, Zane. And like, you know, the Quebec journalists, when I was watching the Carney presser, were saying like, hey, what's going on? You just, he's back to where he was, basically. Like, Gilboa has been- No,
Zain: has been- No, I
Corey: I agree with
Zain: with
Corey: with that personally. Has been, quote unquote, demoted. And Mark Carney said, oh,
Zain: personally. Has been, quote unquote,
Corey: no, this is so important. The identity of this country is very tied up into these current conversations we're having. And I agree with that. It is. Like, it's probably never been in the past 30 years a more important portfolio, right? Right. Probably Sheila Copps was the last time a heritage minister actually was considered like important. But it
Corey: is spin. It is ultimately not as good of a portfolio as environment. And it's certainly when you consider that his thing. Well,
Corey: yeah, he wasn't the one who introduced it, but he was such a champion of the carbon tax. And that was also pulled out.
Corey: I don't know how you read that as a promotion. I don't think it is.
Zain: Yeah.
Zain: Carter, let's talk about the final choice I want to discuss in cabinet. The
Zain: choice for the conservatives in front of them,
Corey: them,
Zain: them,
Corey: them,
Zain: they on the day of talked about this being 90 some odd percent the same people that Justin Trudeau had in his cabinets. The question I have is, is less about message more about longevity. How long do the conservatives talk about this cabinet? Was it just to respond to the news cycle that Carney gave them on that day last week? Or do they talk about this cabinet and use their time and energy to talk about this cabinet going forward? Where are you with that from a strategic point of view? If
Carter: If they talk about this cabinet going forward, they're going to lose. This is not going to be an election about the cabinet choices that Mark Carney's made. This is going to be an election about Mark Carney and
Carter: and his character and capabilities versus Pierre Polyev and his character and his capabilities. that is the actual election and i think that people you need to remind people that pierre polliev was going to be the prime minister and still should be the prime minister if you're the conservatives because the liberals um and it's not they haven't changed much in the cabinet it's that they haven't changed much in their leader so this should be about the leader not about the cabinet cabinet, in my mind. But Jenny Byrne and Pierre Pellievre, they only know one mechanism, and that's attack everything, attack everything, attack everything. So I wouldn't be surprised if they still went after the cabinet. But I think that's a huge mistake, going
Carter: going after a group of people that, you
Carter: you know, most Canadians won't be able to name more than two.
Zain: Coy, Carter might be right about Canadians being able to name it. But is it compelling that they talk about the 90 some odd percent of cabinet being Justin Trudeau's crew going forward? Or Or was that just a competent response on the day of, in your mind? I'm
Corey: sure it'll come up again. I think it's just another proof point in their whole, just like Justin, attack that they've been doing for, I don't know, the past month even here, even before he was officially leader.
Corey: Certainly running those ads in
Corey: in volume, if you're listening to terrestrial radio, or if you're looking at YouTube. And billboards,
Zain: YouTube. And billboards, and out of home, and everything. Yeah,
Corey: and out of home, and everything. Yeah,
Corey: Yeah, I mean, I was driving around Calgary.
Corey: You saw tax relief? Yeah, there's just a lot out there. are like yeah pretty saturated market for advertising and i
Corey: i don't know carbon tax carney just like justin they're going with those alliterations they've got money to spend they're gonna run them hard they're spending it
Zain: hard
Carter: hard they're spending it but
Zain: but but cory do you think there's something there's a there there on talking about cabinet going forward of course it'll come up so should
Carter: come up
Corey: up so should
Corey: should they talk about it but as i was saying um it carter's right like you don't want to be talking about the cabinet and how
Corey: how would that even if the cabinet became the conversation oh we got got to talk about his cabinet we got to talk about the people around we got to talk about his team
Corey: oh who's your cabinet here like can can we talk about your cabinet can we talk about your team what would you do like it's not going to happen because it's not going to happen but if you were somehow going to make the cabinet and the team the conversation of the election i just don't know that that's to your advantage if you're pierre paul yeah his advantage is to make it singularly about one man justin trudeau so the cabinet individuals are they're not individuals they're They're just a mass of humanity that is roughly the same as Justin Trudeau. And that's the only thing he cares about. And that's as far as they're going to go with the attack.
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Zain: Let's
Zain: talk about the second pillar of choices, which is Carney's messaging and his immediate sort of in front of him tasks. And I guess the main question I have in front of you to grapple with, guys, is does Carney want to do more from this job than just call an election? This might be the only sort of two week window in which Carney gets to be prime minister. And is there anything that then your mind, Carter, that's strategic of Carney wanting to do more of the job than perhaps we might expect him to do before calling an election? Does that question make sense? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? like he could get into it be like fuck i there's shit i want to do here and yeah it might be later this week or next week that he calls an election but how much governing the choice of governing how much do you think mark carney will have an appetite for and and how would you kind of pull someone back from that especially when um they may have a particular appetite for it
Carter: trying to say? like
Carter: i mean less than zero um i i think that in general like the trip to europe we talked about that a few weeks weeks ago, how that made sense. You predicted
Zain: You predicted that and you said that was a good idea. I want to call that out.
Carter: want to call that out.
Carter: Yeah, because you go to Europe, you remind the world that we have opportunities beyond that of the United States. You come back, you take some sort of action against Trump. That's about it because you're not actually governing. You're setting up your election. You're setting up, you're just doing enough to prove that you belong on the world world stage. Pierre doesn't. You're doing enough to prove that you can act against Donald Trump. Pierre can't. You're doing enough to show that you have a government of people that can actually do the job. And Pierre doesn't. That's it. That's all you have to do. So you have to get in and you have to get out as quickly as possible. And I think the election is going to be called in like extremely short order. So,
Carter: So,
Corey: So,
Carter: So, you
Carter: you know, get in, get out and don't worry about governing. Corey,
Zain: should he worry at all about governing? And of course, he will talk about the repealing of the consumer facing carbon tax in a moment here. But beyond that, should he care at all about any governance matters while he's prime minister, and perhaps while the only time he's ever prime minister? I
Corey: I think that is a few Canadian equivalent of executive orders he's got to do, right? Maybe not even OICs, like he's playing a bit fast and loose with holding
Corey: holding up signs that say like, I dictate that this is going to not how our government works. Yeah, the one paragraph carbon tax repeal sort of thing. Not really how our government works. It's fine. Yeah, it was made for good theater. Well, that's it. He's going to bring the theater to the next couple of days here to make a big show of using government to make changes to unpopular policies, to make a big show of using the fact that he's the prime minister to go meet with leaders and reinforce people's perception of his relationships. That's it. it, he's not sitting there saying, you know, if I had an extra week, I really think I could knuckle into those regulations about health care. I
Zain: government works. Yeah, the one paragraph carbon tax repeal sort of thing. Not really how our government works.
Zain: theater. Well, that's it.
Zain: couple of days
Zain: I guess, okay, you're right. So maybe a different way for me to ask my question is, does he want to show action, show action, not do things? Does he want to show action in his two weeks of, or one week, 10 days, use 10 days as a placeholder for governing? Does he want to show action? And is that actually an important part of the setup for the third pillar that we're going to discuss which is the choices he needs to make in week one of a campaign of course so
SPEAKER_01: days,
SPEAKER_05: days, use 10
SPEAKER_01: 10
SPEAKER_05: 10
SPEAKER_05: as a placeholder
SPEAKER_01: placeholder
SPEAKER_05: placeholder for
SPEAKER_01: for
Corey: of a campaign of course so
Zain: so
Corey: so we already saw a little bit of that on friday where he went and he made a couple of moves as as the new prime minister if you ever wanted any um evidence
Corey: light though it may be that the cabinet was not really about the cabinet but it was about just saying there's a new boss in town it's that he repealed the carbon tax the exact same day you could have easily spaced that out another day said we're meeting today but we're gonna meet again tomorrow we've got some important things it's It's all orientation today. Tomorrow is when we get down to the real agenda. Like, you have that option, right? But he said, no, I'm going to repeal the carbon tax today. He's now going to Europe. He was marching in a St. Patrick's Day parade. He's going to do a few things that showcase him in different ways, using the power of his office. And then he's fucking out. Like, of course. Like, nothing I've seen so far makes me think he actually is interested in governing. Governing. Governing, right? Like, it is. And you both would think it's a mistake that he would get deeper than
Zain: we're meeting today
Zain: few things
SPEAKER_05: things
Zain: Governing.
Carter: Governing. Governing,
Zain: Governing,
Zain: than
Corey: than where he is right now. You're never going to get anything done in the time he's got available. What
Carter: he is right now. You're never going
Zain: going
Carter: What
Zain: What
Corey: What
Carter: What are you going to do? Rethink health care? Carter, let's move
Corey: What are
Zain: are you going
Corey: going
Zain: Carter, let's move on then. The choice of his presser.
Zain: What did you think of it? The human wall behind. Very conventional, right? Step outside the human wall of his cabinet ministers. Christopher Freeland over right shoulder. So talk to me about the visuals of it. And then talk to me about what you thought of those 20, 25 minutes where he he gave a bit of a speech and then answered questions from the press. I'll ask both of you about the choices that were made there, both strategic and messaging wise. Yeah,
Carter: I mean, I think that he looks like it looks and sounds like a prime minister. This is where I'm going to to kind of agree with Corey's earlier assessment about the cabinet. It's traditional, right? Like, I don't think that they made it. There were no decisions there that were outside of the norm. This was exactly the norm. And and I think that that might be one of the the theories of the election is we just need normalcy again. Right. And I would argue I would argue that he needs to step out a little bit more. What
Zain: do you mean by that? What does that mean? I'd
Carter: like to see him on his own. I'd like to I mean, this this trip to Europe is going to be super interesting. How does he look without a human wall? How does he look? You know, when he's you know, can he can he take questions on a topic that he's not 100% an expert on already? Can he can he survive without his cabinet ministers? You know, it's going to be an interesting,
Carter: interesting trip to Europe. Ready
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SPEAKER_00: I'm Terri Hart, and this is The Heart of It All, a podcast about navigating the messy, beautiful, complicated realities of caregiving for our aging loved ones. Every week, I sit down with experts, caregivers, and families to talk honestly about what it means to support an aging parent. If you're a caregiver or you want to know what to expect when you inevitably become one, you're in the right place. The heart of it all. That's heart spelled H-A-R-T. New episodes every week wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_03: ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com. Corey,
Zain: what did you think of the setup? What did you think of the content? I
Corey: I
Corey: think Carter named it so squarely and so well. It was normalcy, right? Like it was central casting for Prime Minister. what is it supposed to look like in our mind maybe even in a way it doesn't even usually look like but it's what you expect right yeah and he did that job really well a couple other comments i'll add one is i've never seen a guy the first day on the job look more comfortable and i don't i don't mean a politician i mean anyone like he looked like he'd been doing it for months didn't have a care in the world was batting around like there was no bleeding of nervousness there he he looked like a guy who'd had the job forever right and i think that that's an incredible superpower he's got he's clearly got a lot of confidence doesn't seem to be a rational confidence yeah
Carter: yeah and he
Zain: a
SPEAKER_05: a rational confidence yeah
Zain: yeah
SPEAKER_05: yeah
Zain: yeah
Corey: yeah no for sure and
SPEAKER_05: no
Zain: no for sure and
Corey: he's just he's just fine with it right he's instantly fine with it i also think he's better off the cuff than off the script like his remarks were delivered very plotting marching through certainly something we identified during the leadership contest as well but the minute it's okay let's go to questions he's boom bam ping he's throwing little quips out he's joking with journalists you know he's just moving through it kind of kind of a prick to journalists but yes you know so on that note i gotta tell you he
Zain: very
Zain: you know so on
Corey: he was he was just the right level of prick for day one he can get away with that day one if that was day 1000 people be like fucking what an asshole right but on day one okay you so you saw it too oh yes oh yeah but on day one you can get away away with that it
Zain: day one you can get away away with that
Zain: it was it was a i i like this guy but i've seen this guy before and he may not be the easiest to work with sort of guy like we've we've met a person like this before i'm not saying you the three of us but like we've seen versions of this person i'm well aware
Corey: versions of this person i'm well aware i can be that guy on on moments yeah yeah
Zain: yeah yeah yeah yeah i
Corey: yeah i think it's um it was interesting but i i like carter also would have liked to see maybe this is their theory of the campaign we're gonna be central forecasting for the prime minister uh but i would like to see some creativity myself we'll see could come or
Corey: or he might just say i want to
Zain: say i want to talk about i want to talk about potential creativity uh in in a second um carter there is the the item of the choices that he made which is the day one carbon tax repeal yeah
Corey: i want
Zain: yeah what
Zain: what would you did you like and everything from including aspects of which we've already touched on the cameras in the cabinet room the signing of the the executive order. The only thing that was missing was the fucking Sharpie so that it wasn't Trump-like, right? But the theatrics and the actual timing,
Zain: would you have done something differently? How would you have made it better, I guess? Let me start with that angle in getting your strategist assessment with it.
Carter: Well, I don't think that I would have done
Carter: it the same day as the cabinet.
Carter: Why?
Zain: Why?
Corey: Why?
Carter: Because
Carter: when Alison Redford was running for the leadership and we went into that two-week period, every
Carter: other leadership contender endorsed Gary Moore all on the exact same day.
Carter: And you didn't get to build the story.
Carter: And the building of the story is what actually allows a story to become something more exciting.
Carter: Name your cabinet on Friday.
Carter: Make an announcement on Saturday. Make another announcement on Sunday. Go
Carter: to Europe on Monday, right? So your announcement on Saturday could have been the
Carter: the repeal of the carbon. We're working 24-7 here.
Carter: we're going to repeal the carbon tax on Saturday.
SPEAKER_01: It's as big a news day because now you get the cabinet story and
Carter: and the carbon tax story and the Europe story and you're building instead of trying to fight your own story. And if you think that the media has the capacity of doing more than one story it's super duper hard for the media to do more than one story. Especially when they're doing reactions to, you know, they got to go to Pierre Polyev and get his reaction. They got to go to some guy who runs the NDP. Does anybody remember his name? I don't remember. I don't
Corey: remember. I
Corey: I don't
Corey: think there is an NDP anymore, Stephen. I think
Carter: think there is an NDP anymore,
Carter: think it's gone. You're confused.
Corey: You're confused.
Carter: Yeah, I was confused. That's on me. I apologize. But
Carter: this
Carter: would have given them more opportunity to build momentum, right? Cabinet. I
Carter: think if you went cabinet, carbon tax, trip to Europe, come
Carter: back from Europe, action on the United States. That would be my recipe board. word.
Zain: Corey, let's talk about this. What did you like? What did you not like about the carbon tax repeal announcement, the timing of it, the theatrics of it? And I'm curious if you feel like it hit their day one goal, which is seriousness, like we're going to do shit or show action. I'm curious what you kind of took away from that day as well. Yeah.
Corey: Yeah. So what I liked, I liked the theatrics. I know you've got some people online, including conservative MPs saying this is ridiculous. this is not how the system works i thought it was fine look it is kind of how the system works the prime minister directs a minister to do something the minister does it we just don't have like i was really curious does that template exist did they just use a standard cabinet template and use it in a different way or did somebody have the job of saying okay we're basically creating an order from the prime minister can you go put that on paper that looks like it came from uh you know the cabinet office because
Zain: the cabinet office because we're going to post it on social media afterwards by the way i'm so
Corey: social media afterwards by the way i'm so curious about the specifics behind the scenes there uh that got that going on but that was all working for me that was good that was something that uh you and it was definitive and clear and short and you know you're winning when your opponent is sitting there and saying that's not how we eliminate like anybody gives a fuck right like anybody gives a fuck and the funny thing is as
Zain: and short and you know you're
Corey: as i already said it is kind of how we do it we just don't do it in that template right so we don't just do it in the way that
Zain: that trump has kind of done it on a weekly basis it's time for my open office hours of executive order yeah so i don't
Corey: has kind of done
Corey: basis it's
Corey: yeah so i don't i don't appreciate i don't think it was like fully dishonest i do wonder about it being the same day it's
Corey: not unusual for that to happen i think jason kenney did the exact same thing got sworn in repealed the carbon tax that afternoon at the cabinet meeting right um
Corey: um yeah but
Corey: but i
Corey: i do think that the challenge with it is um uh
Corey: i do think the challenge with it is you are stepping on your own story and you are assuming that everybody wants to have the zone as flooded as badly as you do and my own personal feeling about saturday
Corey: saturday is it was a lost day for the liberals it was the day after and there didn't seem to be a great plan for it and absent a great plan i don't know why that wasn't the plan like if you had something else to keep everybody spinning on saturday and on sunday before the monday trip go
Zain: and there didn't
Zain: and absent
Corey: go for it but if you didn't why didn't you spread that out a little bit
Zain: yeah cory i want to talk about this third pillar of choices and let's spend a bit of time on this let me start with a big question that you've alluded to but not explicitly as like a discussion point and i want to make it one um
Zain: the
Zain: data we have is limited
Zain: it's friday to now but
Zain: is
Zain: carney presenting himself as too conservative uh
Zain: to to be able to win this next election in your mind no no
Corey: mind no
Corey: no okay so listen let's
Zain: listen let's
Zain: let's
Corey: let's
Zain: let's start
Corey: start let's
Zain: let's
Corey: let's start basing
Zain: let's start basing this on on one very simple piece
Corey: piece of data where
Zain: where
Corey: where
Corey: where where has the concern or where has the liberal gains come from where have they come from
Zain: concern or
Zain: you
Corey: you
Zain: you mean historically i mean in the past two months
Corey: mean historically i mean in the past two months
Zain: the
Corey: the
Zain: the
Corey: the
Corey: ndp the ndp are sitting at 11 or 12 percent right they've dropped where where they've been historically at the 20s dropped right so people points and
Zain: the ndp are sitting at 11 or 12 percent right
Zain: where where
Zain: they've been historically
Zain: 20s dropped right so people points
Corey: and those points have all gone to the liberals as they've gotten more right wing as they've gotten more fiscally conservative like i I don't see any evidence that the headspace of this country, the headspace of progressives, is, no, like, I am going to punish you if you go too far right-wing. Like, there's, like, the group that would do that, the group that could do that, at least in theory, they are actually so on the mat. Like, they are just so wrecked right now. Nobody has any interest of talking about the NDP. I think we've already established, not even sure they exist anymore. more. So no, I'm not, I don't think he's going to lose the election for being too right wing, especially when your opponent is Pierre Polian.
Zain: Carter, same question to you to start us off with on the choices that Mark Carney faces on what I'd call week one of the election. Well,
Carter: I just pick up where Corey left off there. I mean, I think that Carney
Carter: is trying to define himself differently. And the pickup from the NDP has been fantastic. I think he's also, Corey's skipping over a little bit about the pickup that he's getting from the conservatives as well i mean this was a 25 point gap and now it is a tie game uh
Carter: uh unless you're following the ecos polls in which case i think that uh didn't i think the liberals went over 100 with eco yeah i actually think uh the conservatives
Corey: yeah i actually think uh the conservatives owe them votes in the ecos poll right i
Carter: i think they do i think the conservatives have given up all of their votes but there's also a tremendous number of votes It's coming off of the Conservatives. So that, and what was the question, Zane? The
Zain: question is fundamentally, is Carney positioning himself as too conservative with the limited data we have in order to be successful this next election?
Carter: No, I don't think so. I mean, I think that there is a zeitgeist in the province and in the world towards conservatism. And only Justin Trudeau was really standing against that in Canada. I mean, if you look, you know, everybody's favorite premier right now is Doug Ford. You
Carter: You know, Danielle
Carter: Smith is getting stronger with her lunacy, not weaker. You know, we can blame the left. But, you know, David Eby squeaked out a victory against a lunatic in
Carter: in British Columbia. I mean, this is this
Carter: this is a time of conservatism and rational conservatism is going to be very, very popular. Well,
Corey: look, I do want to say I don't actually think that Mark Carney is a conservative. I think he is such a classical liberal, a type that I didn't know existed in the Liberal Party of Canada until pretty recently. I thought that they'd all kind of been shaken out by Justin Trudeau, but he's
Corey: he's not, you know, he's not Pierre Polyev. And to Stephen's point, about half of the gain that the Liberals have seen have come from the NDP and half from the Conservatives. So he's drawing pretty evenly from both sides, which makes me think his appeal is not about left or right. Right. It's probably about competence, adultness, qualification. And that's that's not so bad for him. That's not bad at all.
Zain: Let's talk about before we get into messaging and positioning and all the fun things we like to on the air war side of things. Let's talk about a ground game aspect of this, Carter, heading into and starting into the first week.
Zain: Candidate recruitment. Corey,
Zain: Corey, there's a there's a Hill Times piece today saying that Carney is reaching out to prominent or his team, by extension, to be fair, reaching out to prominent former Tories or prominent former New Democrats and others to consider being candidates. Do you like this for Team Carney? And then I want to spend a few minutes on what their ground game candidate recruitment challenge will be. Of course, they've had some of the Trudeau era folks say, I'm actually going to run again after saying no. The most prominent, of course, is Anita Anand, who found herself on cabinet again in a prominent role. But Corey, the branching out to folks that may have been previously of another party, or may have not even indicated that they're liberal now and still might be part of that other party, New Democrat, NDP, New Democrat conservatives. You like that for Team Carney strategically? Or, you know, find a lane, find your liberals, let's go.
SPEAKER_02: a there's a Hill Times
SPEAKER_02: piece today saying
Corey: I mean, I personally like it an awful lot. I like the idea that especially in a moment of crisis, crisis especially in a moment where we all need to pull together as a country there's somebody trying to pull the country together irrespective
Corey: irrespective of what their stripe has been in the past
Corey: do think we live in a pretty negative
Corey: partisanship world and the challenge becomes are you just bringing a bunch of people that are going to give people a reason to be mad at you so it remains to be seen but i i mean i don't hate it i i have to i have to assume they have some polling they have some thinking they have some focus grouping on maybe
Corey: this being not such a a bad contrast for them we've talked about steady stable prime ministerial versus eating an apple in a t-shirt pierre poliev right maybe that's a contrast they think works for them maybe they think hyper partisan pierre poliev versus non-partisan former public servant mark carney works for them maybe maybe this is all working for them maybe there's a piece of paper somewhere and in fact their actions to date suspect there is that says mark carney is qualified stable stable sensible government uh who is not going to get dug into the partisan fights of the past and instead going to just put canada first and a strong canada as we build a better country or whatever the hell the you know the statement version
Zain: version of that is sure sure yeah
Corey: of that is sure
Corey: yeah
Corey: yeah so i don't hate it um but i also think when there's reporting like that you
Corey: you better hope that you actually have some of these names or else it looks like you've just kind of fumbled out i
Zain: i want to get into the part b of that question that you're leaning into carter answer answer part a do you like it and And then let's start with part B, which is, how does Team Carney ensure this is successful? In a world in which most people don't even know the name of prominent cabinet ministers, how do they become successful in showcasing to the public that they're creating this multi-partisan rainbow of people on the liberal side of things? Explain that to me. How does it punch through? That's like a very 2025 sort of word. But how does that kind of punch through to make an impact or the desired impact that a team carny would want should this be a dedicated strategy that they're pursuing you
Carter: know it's interesting i'm trying to figure out if i long for the day of the star candidate um
Carter: um you know the star candidate used to be something that we that we you know how we i think we all remember christine silverberg was approached by every party uh when she was the chief of police to be a candidate for them in their in their in their election and uh rick hansen wound up being a police chief
Corey: uh rick
Corey: rick hansen wound up being a police chief right Right. Calgary
Carter: Calgary police chief Rick Hansen was another Calgary police chief who wound up being a candidate for Jason Kennedy.
Carter: Not Jason Kennedy. Was it Jason Kennedy? Yeah. No, it was Jim Prentice when Jim Prentice lost the government.
Carter: You know, these star candidates came forward. You mentioned the name Andrew Leslie. You know, we have these star candidates that are going to come forward. They're going to fill our cabinet and actually be successful. I'm not sure that that matters anymore. I think that we've moved so much into leader centric politics. And the cabinet is so anonymous with so little power that, you know, if you recruit a star candidate, you're probably just recruiting someone who's going to be
Carter: be bitter and being in a cabinet position where they don't get to actually make any choices. So, you
Carter: you know, going out and recruiting an NDP MLA or recruiting a former liberal, Quebec liberal premier who also ran for the conservative leadership, it sounds good in paper, but you're also losing a lot of these people. You better be able to step up on Monday, Tuesday and actually deliver some of these folks or you're going to look like you're chasing a dream that doesn't exist. And that's where I'm worried about it. You think there's enhanced
Zain: think there's enhanced risk there without without the upside, so to speak? Well, I mean, it's not like it's not like he's going to get Tom Mulcair to run for him, for example. Right. Like that's a name that people would know. That's a name associated with with with one party, despite his Quebec liberal past. Right. He was the former. Like that's just I'm throwing that out there as a hypothetical just to give you a sense of political height. Right. Like in terms of that sort of name isn't going to show up. So how does this strategy work? I guess is my question. I mean,
Carter: mean,
Carter: I mean, if he wanted a really difficult to work with NDP former leader, I mean, he could go to Nenshi.
Carter: But this is impossible. Like, you're grabbing all these names and they're just impossible. I don't
Zain: I don't get it.
Corey: Well,
Zain: I don't understand it. There's another problem, right?
Corey: understand
Carter: understand
Corey: understand it. There's another problem, right? You'll
Zain: You'll be fine.
Carter: fine.
Corey: And
Corey: And we talked a little bit about this on our Patreon one, which, you know, if you're willing to part for $6, you can go listen to it. Only $6. Only $6. $6 Canadian dollars, right? It used to
Carter: to it. Only $6.
Zain: $6.
Carter: $6.
Zain: $6 Canadian dollars, right? It used to be American. We switched over. It was never American. Okay. We switched over, though. Let people know. People like the fact that we made a Canadian choice rather than it was default Canadian, Corey. Okay. So let people think it was American, and then we made the effort. Yeah. Great point. Yeah, we made a choice to be like, no, we don't actually want the 30% premium. We're going to make it $6 Canadian. And we wanted to be Canadian
Corey: It was never American.
SPEAKER_05: we
Corey: we made
SPEAKER_05: made
Corey: made the effort. Yeah. Great point. Yeah, we made a choice to be like, no, we don't actually want the
Corey: $6 Canadian. And we wanted to be Canadian because we love this country. Yeah, okay.
Zain: this country. Yeah, okay. yeah okay uh
Corey: we
Corey: we talked about is mark carney making some of the same calculations that the kamala harris campaign made and will those calculations result in the same
Corey: disadvantageous outcome i guess that's the most neutral way i can put it yeah and this just reeks of the the democrats trotting liz cheney to fucking everything right yeah
Carter: yeah and
Carter: yeah that
Corey: that didn't work because we live in a world of negative partisanship where it's you know it's not an the minute she's talking in support of kamala harris she's a traitor to the conservatives that you're after and the democrats that she's now in in a party with or at least she's not in a party with them but she's supporting they fucking hate her and they're like why would you do that i'm mad i'm not going to go doorknock today because i'm mad liz cheney was on my tv saying nice things about kamala harris and so we're
Corey: not the united states we're canada we we do take a different approach to our politics i'm not saying that you're destined to have the same outcomes but
Corey: but it does It does make me wonder, and it does make me wonder if it's actually a strategy that has
Corey: borne out recently anywhere in the world.
Zain: That's interesting. Not to belabor the point, because I think we're past on this particular Carney strategy, but I do find there's two aspects of it to what I presented here. There's the multi-partisan aspect of it, going after people from different political stripes, which I think we've talked about. But the former, I think, is also as interesting, right?
Zain: And when you're going with a cabinet that can be argued as being traditionalist or a throwback, do you think there's political value in finding people, regardless of actually their jersey color now, that have committed to public service, bringing them back, plucking them back in in this very acute moment of crisis? Does that translate for you, either as an air war message or as something interesting or useful? Like, left and right is one thing. Front and back is one thing. And this is going back to go forward. Maybe I'm thinking too much about this. But there is something to be said here. Corey, you go first. And then Carter, you seem to be confused, maybe because the oxygen level in your basement suite is rapidly running out. out but yes yeah i'm
Carter: yes yeah i'm feeling a little light-headed yeah
Corey: i'm
Zain: i'm
Corey: i'm feeling
Corey: yeah well don't worry carter i'll go back and then you can go forward yeah so you know what i mean right yeah i was very
Carter: yeah so you know what i mean right yeah i was very confused by that uh
Corey: obvious major difference with when kamala harris is doing it and when we're doing it right now is that people in canada actually believe there's an existential crisis americans that was quite a partisan divide right people thought that you know uh if there was an existential crisis they couldn't agree on what it was they thought it was either donald
Corey: donald trump or kamala harris and so it was hard to it was hard to create a rally to the flag moment at least in a way that was actually going to give you the political dividends that you wanted but here in canada we're actually pretty fucking concerned about what's going on with the united states and all of that and so
Corey: maybe there is an opportunity to bring people together from across the board and say no in times of crisis we pull together we have had coalition
Corey: coalition governments during wars right where where we've brought people together, and maybe this is something that starts to feel like a moment where that's appropriate. I have seen some polling that suggests amongst liberals, it would actually be very popular to have a united
Corey: united coalition of, well, we're just going to get everybody involved, the best minds of all. We're going to put aside all of this partisan bickering. And so maybe
Corey: maybe that reporting doesn't hurt so much, as long as you can somewhat follow through with it. I'll go back to that point there. But that's the challenge he's got. He hasn't delivered on on it yet we we got in that hill times piece no names except for lee richardson who was a former conservative mp in calgary yeah
Zain: yeah who said no who said
Corey: who said no so like we're and that he's supporting the conservatives so like we've got to get more than that if we're going to think this strategy is going to bear any fruit carter
Zain: um how does carney launch again he just launched how
Zain: does he launch again if you were advising him what would you do what would you do different from from the launch that you had, if you were to launch, would you include some candidates? Would you have the time to build slogan? Would you completely take anything that happened during the leadership and scratch that and you're starting net new? Give me how you're thinking about this. Do you even need to launch again? He's already prime minister. Let's go. How are you thinking about this, Corey? Same question to you as we discuss what I'd like to call the first week or the first starting days for the Carney campaign.
Carter: Campaign started in February. Just keep going. Just keep going. don't relaunch again just keep running uh make it look like one long campaign and don't give people the time to chance to to think about whether or not um why
Carter: why they like you just understand that they they do like you and that's what mark carney should be doubling
Carter: doubling down on right now people
Carter: people like don't go crazy do
Zain: like don't
Zain: do
Carter: do you
Zain: you agree with that
Corey: that premise
Carter: premise cory and
Zain: and if so this is very much a hill and knowlton thing for you and i which is carter is giving the strategic directive and we have to now make this real, because he's given very little direction to us otherwise. Because if you agree with that premise, what does a brand look like? What does all these sort of things look like? Do you borrow it from the previous one? How are you thinking about these things? I want to get a bit deeper than what Carter's put on the table here.
SPEAKER_05: that premise,
Corey: Yeah, I don't agree. I think that you still need to have a launch because... That fucks my premise
Zain: because... That fucks my premise up. Fuck. Okay, fine.
Corey: fine.
Zain: Yeah,
Corey: Yeah,
Zain: Yeah, go ahead. Talk about it. Because
Corey: go ahead. Talk about it. Because I think that, well, Canadians are pretty keyed in on politics right now. I don't think they were sleepwalking through the liberal race i do think that there is a whole group of people who are not going to pay attention until there's an election the number of conversations i've had with people in my life smart people not idiots who have said so uh when do you think of the election's gonna be and
Corey: and i want to say we've all fucking known forever it's going to be next week at the latest right but they don't they don't know that they don't know that and so um you've got to accept the moment for what it is you've got to accept the electorate for who they They are. And they're going to turn their eyes to all of the main candidates as soon as the election starts and says, oh, I guess I better pick somebody. So you got to use that moment. I don't think the launch needs to look like it's
SPEAKER_05: don't they don't know that
Corey: the first time anybody's thought about an election. I think you can use the power of the pulpit to go out and say, I've just told the or the governor general we need an election. We all know it's coming. We all know this moment's too serious to wait a couple of weeks to see if parliament can work or not. I want to make a new parliament work. I need a mandate to go fight mano a mano with Donald Trump, whatever. is right and so the launch can look less
Corey: about let me introduce you to me mark carney and more i your prime minister have made a decision this is in the best interest of the country and that's when you pull in your brand attributes in your story are
Zain: those brand attributes new or are they borrowed from the leadership cory i
Corey: think that you would have been a very very poor political organizer if you weren't keeping one eye on the general election through the leadership so the answer is both it's new and it's carried through from it it's just making the focus A little bit different for the audience, but none of the words are new. The
Corey: The emphasis is just in different places.
Carter: No, but there has to be some different words. Like, for example, it can't be Team Carney on
Carter: on the signs, right? It's been Team Trudeau on all the signs. Yeah, I agree with that.
Corey: Yeah, I agree with that.
Carter: I think it should be Team Canada, a
Corey: Team Canada, a
Carter: a Mark Carney liberal, right?
Carter: right?
Carter: I'm a Mark Carney liberal,
Carter: right? Really define that Mark Carney is a different type of liberal. liberal you know george
Carter: george chahal a mark carney liberal is
Zain: he is he though is
Zain: he though
Zain: lucia probably get it that was a bad example i
Carter: was a bad example i made a bad thing happen there damn
Corey: bad thing
Zain: thing happen
Corey: happen
Zain: happen
Corey: happen
Zain: happen
Corey: happen
Zain: happen
Corey: happen there
Zain: there
Corey: there
Corey: it carter
Corey: carter are you okay are they carter
Zain: carter
Corey: carter
Carter: carter
Corey: carter do
Zain: carter do you have you passed is this like a ghost where you have passed away can
Carter: do
Corey: do
Carter: do
Carter: you hear the sirens yes
Zain: hear the sirens
Zain: yes
Corey: yes yes
Zain: yes we
Corey: we can hear
Zain: can
Carter: can
Zain: can hear this yeah we
Carter: hear this yeah
Corey: yeah we can hear this
Carter: this
Zain: this all night every night this
Carter: this all night
Corey: night
Carter: night every night this
Corey: this
Zain: this is what what happens what the where are they putting you up and then ultimately killing you there's
Zain: a tv it's
Zain: not all bad all
Corey: not all bad all right that's good okay
Zain: okay cory any other choices you want mark carney to make on week one because my over under is really one only one question and i want i want to get to it any choices that you have been thinking about that you're like carney do this week one you
Corey: you know he's moved to canada strong away from the it's time to build that he launched with i think that's a bit of a shame i actually preferred it's time to build i i can again i don't like
Carter: again i don't like canada strong i can understand
Corey: i can understand the thinking i just don't like it and uh if if it were me in the first week you've
Corey: got to do it in a way that it doesn't look like insanely presumptuous but you've got to come out as the man with the plan right you haven't said very much about policy i
Corey: i actually don't know that canadians care that much about policy right now i know that there's going to be some concern about giving a target rich environment but if there were ever a moment in this sea of sound soundbites for a 93 style red book i think this is kind of it and i wouldn't spend any time talking about it so much as to say i got a plan i want a mandate for the plan you know here are my three focuses are we're going to build east to west infrastructure we're going to you know pull down all of these barriers you know all of that crap that we always say which is always harder than it is uh you know the way we talk about it but yeah
SPEAKER_05: i know
Zain: know
Corey: yeah i think you just you keep the agenda moving to to your song and you also know that
Corey: that you're gonna have donald trump blow up your campaign 10 different ways so you start by getting all of that stuff out so that nobody can say you're a lightweight and then you spend the rest of the campaign as the man with the plan who's gonna fight donald trump and then you you
Corey: you react and you pick up the donald trump pieces and you hit pierre polyev with them and you just let you let pierre polyev's 35 days in his wish journal campaign that he always wanted to run get utterly fucked up and you just do everything you need to do week one and you spend the rest of the weeks you
Corey: know
Zain: know improv
Corey: improv i
Zain: i
Corey: i
Corey: think that's what you do carter
Zain: well what's an idea or a thought you have in your head that you that you hope and wish and dream uh as a young lad that mark carney would do on the first week of of his campaign yeah
Zain: sounds
Zain: good that's a great idea probably one of your best carter i
Carter: i think you should send out an email asking
Zain: should send
Carter: asking if If people want to sign and
Carter: if they do,
Zain: if they do,
Zain: I've got nothing. We're going to leave it there. That's good. I don't even go to the over under. It should probably take a whole episode. We're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 1852 of the strategist. My name is Zane Velji with me as always, Corey Hogan, Steven Carter, and we shall see you all next time.
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