Transcript
Zain
0:02
This is The Strategist, episode 1848i. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, glad he finally decided to fucking show up, Corey Hogan and Stephen Carter. Carter, you've been on this call, this link, for how long? You've recorded so many confidential conversations, which we're probably just going to throw into the back catalog. Yeah,
Carter
0:20
Yeah, no, it's been fantastic. I've been on conference calls for, well,
Carter
0:25
well, since the last time we recorded, Zane, and I am about to lay out some shit. I am just, everything that's been said on those confidential calls is
Carter
0:35
is coming out in the Strategist podcast, because I'd rather have their $6 a month than,
Carter
0:41
you know, a job. job
Zain
0:42
that preserve any how many uh how many b-team conference calls have you been on where where they feel like they're divulging confidential information to you but you know they may not be just
Carter
0:51
no they seem to be working
Corey
0:52
insane because like the amount you guys were i
Corey
0:56
i don't know pleasuring the backside of mark carney last episode was a little disgusting in terms of our like you know cherished non-partisan neutral are we cherished
Zain
1:05
cherished on partisan you're the one who likes mark carney more than anyone here i know mark that's true It's different, right? I
Zain
1:12
know Mark Carney. Carter's helping Mark Carney. Corey, what are you doing in this situation?
Corey
1:14
Well, I'm just sitting here passing judgment. It's what I
Zain
1:17
do. Carter, we've got so many things to discuss. And because you were actually adult enough to show up last time, I'm going to let you choose where we go. So tell us exactly where we're going.
Carter
1:29
I think we have to do the green dot.
Zain
1:31
Oh, my God, Corey. Flair Airlines has a new competitor because the black dot now
Zain
1:37
now has a green dot. Of course,
Zain
1:40
people to catch you up to speed, Flair Airlines is the title sponsor of this podcast and continues to be in perpetuity. They have signed a deal with the
Carter
1:50
the Strategies Media Corporation.
Carter
1:52
One less upside down landing than Delta. You know, it's pretty spectacular. It's a little
Zain
1:56
little clunky, but it fits their brand. It worked. It works on their
Corey
2:00
at the very least, one fewer, but okay. Yeah.
Carter
2:04
that they don't get that right. They
Carter
2:06
They don't get that right ever.
Zain
2:08
No, why would they get it right, Corey? Are you familiar with their brand?
Carter
2:12
they're our title sponsor. Of course I
Zain
2:16
as you know, Not Our Sponsor t-shirts are available on thestrategist.ca. Are you shilling merchandise? My God. One thing someone will see. This morning energy.
Corey
2:24
You're taking way too much out of Brian
Corey
2:26
Brian Jesperson's book. We're
Zain
2:29
eight in the morning. One thing people will see at the Not Our Sponsor,
Zain
2:33
on the Not Our Sponsor t-shirts is a black dot, Corey.
Zain
2:37
Well, make way, because
Zain
2:38
because now there's a green dot. You think we need to
Zain
2:41
to put a green dot on that? That green emoji, when you're on your phone and you're like, wait, what represents go but is not a checkmark?
Zain
2:48
Is there a green dot available on your emoji list? And the answer is yes, but the answer is now also, that is now the new logo of the Green Party of Canada.
Zain
2:56
I can't wait for the Liberals to go to an eggplant.
Zain
3:00
not a bullshit story.
Zain
3:02
Yeah. What do you think of this?
Corey
3:05
Okay, well, what do I think about this? I don't think it's very good, but I don't think it's as bad as people
Corey
3:11
people are making it out to be. Like, there's a thought in design that when you're doing a logo, particularly for a political party, and Hillary Clinton did this, right? Right. And that you're not creating so much a logo as you're creating a design system. And a lot of what we saw from the greens on the launch of their quote unquote logo, which is just a green circle, to your point, is how they were going to use it, how they were going to apply it on advertisements next to each other, where the dots become circles with pictures of nature in some cases or whatever, all next to each other, telling a story or the green dots surrounded by people in that Memphis corporate look like really pretty hackneyed and a few years old. But it's a way they tell a story. And so they were looking for a logo that allowed them both to meet the needs of a modern logo, which is simplicity, the ability to make it big, make it small, use an awful lot of context, but also serve as a bit of a foundation for other communications activity, other design activity. So, I mean, I guess I get it. I just think it's not as clever as they think it is. Carter,
Zain
4:10
Carter, is this clever, this shorthand that they're trying to use an emoji as their new brand, almost trying to suggest that their
Zain
4:18
their brand is so codified that it's available in emoji form?
Carter
4:26
genius or lunacy, and I lean towards lunacy.
Carter
4:30
Make the argument for
Zain
4:31
for genius in that case.
Carter
4:34
Everybody has access to your logo.
Carter
4:36
Congratulations. congratulations you've now placed it into everybody's hands um that is the ability to make shit happen i mean the black dot for flare airlines we we stole that i mean they gave that to us as part of their title sponsorship and you know it's
Carter
4:56
it's unprotectable it's not something that you can say i have that's my logo that you're using there sir uh you know ma'am you can't use that that's that's that's
Carter
5:06
that's our logo it's it's absolutely unprotectable and uh the all
Carter
5:14
all the other you
Carter
5:18
i mean i think it's i can't i can't argue it it has to go to lunacy thank
Zain
5:23
thank you carter good well
Zain
5:25
well look you know what do you want do you want to insert a point or do i give you the best quote of all time well we have have a choice oh okay well it's
Corey
5:33
it's a fork in the road moment
Zain
5:33
moment as Elon Musk
Corey
5:34
Musk would say my quote might become the best quote of all time just just don't think
Zain
5:38
think it will because
Corey
5:38
because I'm going to read you an Elizabeth Bay quote okay well I don't stand a chance but you
Corey
5:43
you don't one of the things about brands political party brands and I'm using brand not in the sense of what people feel about it but more like in the design in the design systems of of parties would probably be more accurate people don't actually know political party logos like when you think about a political party's visual identity you almost certainly think of the color of the political party right red for liberal blue for conservative green for green so on a certain level it's embracing a reality like you could change your logo to whatever the fuck you want as any party and nobody's going to be able oh yes the l with the maple leaf swooping up just in the right place and so then it like that doesn't happen nobody knows like you could you could ask people to draw the liberal party of Canada logo on the street, zero
Corey
6:25
zero out of a hundred could do it.
Corey
6:27
It's probably true with the Conservatives, probably true with every political party in Canada. So in a way, just to make the case for genius, which I also kind of disagree with here, they're saying, I know, we know what our visual identity is. It's the color green. We're going to get down to it. We're not going to overcomplicate it. And by making it simple, we're actually freeing up ability to do lots of interesting things with it that we couldn't previously do because our logo, you
Corey
6:51
you know, know their old logo was a little it didn't render well at low resolutions it was a little pointy it uh you know it just it was tough to work with it's pretty fucking easy to work with a green dot so they in some ways i think that would be the case for it carter
Zain
7:04
carter so you heard cory's quote now now compare it against this quote it's
Zain
7:09
it's a statement around the things that really matter yes around dot the planet yes a circular economy carter
Carter
7:24
mean do we just end the podcast now i mean there's nothing that we're gonna say we have committed
Zain
7:29
committed ourselves for generations as a country but a rip and strip economy where raw resources get shipped out may
Zain
7:36
may said the last time the party rebranded was 25 years ago okay
Corey
7:40
okay so there's a gas leak in the green party office in ottawa circle
Zain
7:45
go back to the circle It's like the conjoined triangles of success, but it's just a green dot. And you find the answer within it. You
Zain
7:54
right? Kind of like you're going to one of those museums with paintings and they've got a bench and you're like supposed to, you should just look into it and the answer will come.
Corey
8:03
You know, somebody thought that was really deep. That's the most concerning thing here.
Carter
8:09
Yeah, it was deep. It was deep in a pile of shit is where that was. Okay.
Zain
8:15
took us to the first location. Corey, where are we going next? What do you want to talk about?
Corey
8:19
We could talk about the fact that Canada won a hockey game last night. Insert air horn sound here.
Carter
8:29
I don't think it's going to happen. Do
Corey
8:30
Do we have to be more explicit? I don't think it's
Carter
8:31
it's going to happen. I think whenever we say insert, it doesn't happen.
Zain
8:37
will this time. I don't know.
Zain
8:38
Corey, we were playing for our freedom. Do you think we're going to keep it?
Corey
8:43
I think we keep it for at least another day. Excellent, yeah.
Corey
8:46
yeah. I woke up not even caring what Donald Trump tweeted, because who gives a shit? We won. He's a loser. His team lost.
Zain
8:53
Yeah, but it was rigged, right?
Corey
8:55
Corey, so further than that. Mike
Corey
8:57
still, you know, get Team USA the win if he has the courage. Yeah,
Zain
9:00
Yeah, but he doesn't. J.D. Vance does, though. J.D. Vance has the courage. Okay, so we can talk about the hockey game. What else? What other options are thrown on the table? You
Corey
9:08
You want to talk about Ontario? You want to talk about Alberta? Ontario, Alberta. alberta german election this weekend german election's freaking me the fuck out yeah me too well
Zain
9:17
well let's do it actually talk about that for half a second sure
Carter
9:19
sure no not really no scared everybody give us everybody just terrified like like wouldn't we rather just go to sleep and pretend the whole thing doesn't happen like that
Zain
9:28
that that the neo-nazi party might actually win
Zain
9:32
yeah well so when or or make significant enough gains to fundamentally change the fabric of german culture or regress it yeah
Corey
9:41
in their particular case
Corey
9:42
certainly the afd is going to do better than they've ever done before unless the polls are wrong wrong wrong the afd is a very far right party in germany all of the mainstream parties have refused to work with the afd this has been a hard line that people have drawn in the sand you know you often wonder how long it will hold this was one of the things that was it jd vance was in when he was in europe saying like hey you've you've got to stop saying you won't work with these right-wing parties. Well, this is a far-right German nationalist party. Do we have any experience with that? Does Germany have any experience with that? What do you guys think? But, you know, norms are falling left, right, and center, and certainly far-right, and there is some concern that they're going to come out of this with an awful lot of power, and it's going to take like a total coalition of basically everybody else in order to kind of freeze them out of the Bundestag. How do you
Carter
10:34
you feel about the last few months learning German? Like, kind of wasted effort?
Corey
10:42
Yeah, a little bit. A little bit
Carter
10:43
bit of wasted effort. Yeah.
Corey
10:44
Yeah. Good to know.
Carter
10:46
Glad I didn't follow you on that journey.
Corey
10:49
No, no, no. German is a, you know me, I'm a Germanophile, but I'm a little bit concerned about this particular stuff. Yeah,
Carter
10:55
Yeah, we're all a little bit concerned.
Corey
10:57
Yeah. But, you know, I think it plays into some bigger geopolitical conversations here, too.
Corey
11:03
Let's just throw the simple one on the table. There's some reporting about how, you
Corey
11:08
you know, researchers have looked at the For You page on German Twitter and found that far-right content is getting three, four times as many impressions as should be expected, right? Oh,
Zain
11:17
Oh, and to be clear, Musk is very much aligned with this part. Musk has actually,
Zain
11:22
spoken at A&D rallies,
Corey
11:24
rallies, right? Right. And and of course, we already mentioned the J.D. Vance thing. But this is a this is a total realignment of what's considered normal and appropriate. And and in Germany, there are there are constitutional protections well beyond what you'd find here or in the United States to stop extremist parties. And just before the election, they were they were somewhat strengthened. So it would take a super majority to undo some of them. So in some ways, the mainstream parties almost tried to AFD proof some of the things that exist within Germany. Yeah. So it's not like everything's going to fall apart in a minute, like it did, even if the AFD ended up with the plurality of the seats. It's unlikely they'd ever be able to govern.
Corey
12:05
They'd have to get like basically an outright majority or something really close to it. So on one hand, you think don't panic, but on the other, you think, well, at what point do you panic? These guys are pulling a 25% plus in some of the polls. it's a lot of people and it doesn't take a real stretch of imagination to imagine you know fatigue with a cdu government in a year or two people starting to feel a little bit less like the afd is just this outrageous presence in their life uh you know some other coalition conversations happen things change and uh that's really alarming you know they they're not right in the living room of german politics right now but they are they're pretty fucking present in the foyer and uh and things can lead to bad places so you know something to watch for sure
Corey
12:51
and something to be scared about so you know everybody out there go please be scared yeah
Carter
12:56
yeah because it's not it's not enough to be just scared about the united states right we gotta add germany on top of that you know
Corey
13:02
know the old norm mcdonald joke where he says the only country he's afraid of is germany right he's like you know germany they fought the whole world and
Corey
13:10
and then here's the crazy thing they did it again right and you
Corey
13:15
you know i i think uh oversimplification of both but very good joke and uh yeah cory
Zain
13:22
would be the type of
Zain
13:23
of person that would heckle at a comedy show being like the premise and the world war one was more complex than that yeah
Zain
13:30
he'd probably wear that same fucking blazer too hey carter it's a nice blazer
Zain
13:33
blazer and by the way if you're
Zain
13:35
in a dire spot just look into the green circle for the answers the dot has has all answers and solutions for you yeah yeah and it's just like you know you realize oh yeah the world is round and we're in a circular economy uh carter tell me this i'm gonna let you go into the next spot and and i really am not because i want to go to alberta i
Zain
13:53
want to talk about what danielle smith is doing she is not letting go of her health minister amidst this this controversy the ndp continue to call um for the judicial public inquiry to get to the bottom of the scandal. Where is this story headed? We have seen stories like this before. We've seen stories adjacent to this. Given its natural momentum, given its, you know,
Zain
14:17
know, sort of players involved, Smith has made a minor concession. You know, Tremblay is being replaced in the health ministry, but continues to be the interim head of Alberta Health Services. So she makes this minor concession with her deputy minister, doesn't let go of her actual health minister, despite one call from inside the House to do so, in her own ministry to do so, at least one call that we know of. The NDP continued to call for what they've called for. Where is this story going, Carter?
Carter
14:49
Well, it really is dependent on what the NDP choose to do with it, because the NDP, I think, has a tremendous opportunity to continue to define this in simplistic terms, and they've They've been shifting to more and more complicated terms.
Carter
15:03
They've been using the term corrupt
Zain
15:04
corrupt care. Corrupt care is how they've been...
Carter
15:06
been... Corrupt care is great. I like corrupt care. Corrupt care is a great phrasing that kind of puts things into a
Carter
15:14
a nice box. But then what they surround the box with isn't easy to understand or interpret. And
Carter
15:21
And I think that this is an easy to understand exercise. exercise um the the person that has taken the fall has fallen right into running ahs um you know the person who uh you know the the the job that was cut was from alberta health not from uh ahs right like and i know that those
Carter
15:42
those sound like the same thing but they're different things and the the this
Carter
15:47
this is kind of ridiculous right
Carter
15:49
if this person in some fashion behaved poorly then
Carter
15:52
then why Why is he running AHS still as a single entity, as a single person? He's
Carter
15:58
He's still in charge.
Carter
15:59
So the corruption continues. The corruption has been doubled down on. Well,
Corey
16:06
Hold on. Alleged. Like, no.
Corey
16:08
no. Alleged. And also, like, in defense of Andre Tremblay, nobody is saying that he was, well, some people might be implying it, but. No,
Corey
16:17
think. The reason why he was removed from the job was a concession of like, okay, well, maybe be he shouldn't be the person overseeing the thing that he's running and we'll just take a step back right so he could focus on this job like nowhere did the government say we're doing this because we have concerns with andre's um he's
Carter
16:34
he's making my point my point is that this was a nothing move a nothing move that that didn't address anything they've been continued to just try and sweep this under the table and it shouldn't be swept under the table but the ndp are making it more complicated than it has to if they can make corrupt care stick great but they need to define corrupt care they need to define corrupt care a hell of a lot better than they have to this point well
Zain
16:58
well there's there's some interesting angles here right um two strategies sweep it under the rug and get something to stick broadly is what carter's put out there the the ucp want to sweep it under the rug the ndp want to get their relatively
Zain
17:12
relatively pithy slogan to stick corey
Zain
17:15
corey is that is that right in terms of where we are with the politics here or do you disagree i
Corey
17:19
i i guess i have to disagree in that it kind of assumes something right which and i
Corey
17:24
i which is something went wrong you don't sweep something under the rug if something didn't go wrong okay and so like i i think that we just need to take a tiny bit of a step back from such assertions but certainly if you're the if you're the premier you would prefer to be talking about something else you'd prefer to move on to some other topic and uh and so yeah the ucp strategy has changed the channel and the ndp strategy is keep it on there and turn up the volume to a level that even stephen carter can hear it right this is the uh this is the door this is the fork and um and if you are the ucp
Corey
18:00
even if you think you've done nothing wrong you don't want to talk about it right like it doesn't benefit you to talk about it doesn't benefit you to have everybody else talking about it so i i don't i think disagree in like the tactics being the same as quote-unquote sweeping under the rug but i do think you need to take a breath on that particular claim right like we're still waiting for an awful lot of information to come out but
Carter
18:22
but i think that you have to define what the expectation of the law of the awful lot of information that's going to be coming forward i mean you this needs to be defined as a corruption scandal it
Carter
18:32
it has not yet been defined as a corruption scandal i mean
Corey
18:37
called it corrupt care but yeah no
Carter
18:39
no but it hasn't been defined it's you can't just name something you can't just name it
Corey
18:42
it i take that point yeah
Carter
18:43
yeah you can't just name it and say you know there it is i mean we named the strategists and then we had to prove that we were actually this no we didn't and we continue
Zain
18:50
continue to do so never never i don't think we've reached it yet i don't i don't think we've gotten it there no but i think that i think that piece about the green dot though i think yeah it was pretty good it's pretty good might be what does it lunacy or genius
Zain
19:02
Can we, okay, whatever Corey wants to call it, I do want to discuss the respective strategies of the NDP and the UCP. I think that the materiality of this case is interesting, but I think the political strategy is also just as fascinating. Fascinating. Corey, let me start with you.
Zain
19:18
What is the NDP strategy that they need to employ, not the one that they are employing? Carter's suggesting that it is to define their short statement. In this case, it's corrupt care. What should the NDP strategy be here based on the most recent maneuvers that the premier has made? It
Corey
19:32
It reminds me a lot of the, we used to talk about the model 330-330 a lot. Stephen will for sure remember this, right? Where we would want an advertisement that worked for somebody who wanted three seconds of information, 30 seconds of information, three minutes of information, and 30 minutes of information. And it does feel to me that the NDP have figured out the three second version with corrupt care. And it feels like they figured out the 30 minute version with, you know, Nahed Nenshi's, you know, deconstruction of Zapruder films, right, that are going on right now. But they haven't quite figured out the 30 second and the three minute version, like how they say it in such a way that somebody says, oh, corrupt care, tell me more. And they don't have to sit through a lecture, right? Like they need to be able to get to a point where it's, well, and I, you know, we were giving a lot of praise to, who
Corey
20:22
who was, who was the tweet? I can't remember now.
Zain
20:27
I don't even know what you're talking about, but I just took a shot. You figured
Corey
20:31
figured it out. That's good. Shot in
Zain
20:32
Good. Context, man. Just like building it up. Yeah, yeah. And
Corey
20:35
And well, and so the tweet essentially summarized the entire accusation in what could be said in 30 seconds. the ndp have not found their version of that they haven't found the version of and and to me it doesn't feel like it's very hard it's like the accusation is the government was improperly directing money towards somebody who was giving them favors you
Corey
20:56
know that's that's not very hard but like i i think the ndp is struggling because there are so many elements and and there is a desire to be precise and the desire not to get sued i suspect although corrupt care feels like Like, that's, if anything, kind of pushing pretty far. But I don't know. I mean, like, they need to bundle it in ways that, you know, anybody on the street, if they're like, hey, have you heard about this fucking, like, scandal? And when the person says, no, tell me more, they're like, I don't know, I'll send you a Nenshi video. I found it pretty compelling, but it was a little – like, that's not going to work, right? Yeah. So, you've got to find, like, the super crisp, this is it. And, you know, it reminds me so much. There's a former colleague of ours, one of my very best friends in the world. I like him better than either of you, for sure. Jim Murkowski. I
Corey
21:42
I mean, you know, full
Carter
21:44
Yeah, I mean, he
Carter
21:46
he moved away from you, as I recall. Yeah,
Zain
21:49
did. Moved away and then simultaneously
Corey
21:52
Jim is chief of staff to the premier of BC.
Corey
21:57
But Jim and I used to, you know, talk about messaging a lot, common passion of ours. And he had a way of describing, he's like, you know, the perfect message is just so simple. And it's like, you just, it's like you hit a piece of crystal and it just resonates. And he's like, that feeling of when you've got something that is so simple, it seems obvious, is just the best feeling in the world in communications. And I think, I
Corey
22:18
think that's what the NDP need to search for right now. Like they have all of the pieces. They've got to figure out how to put them together in a way where everyone's like, oh, I fucking get it. And I could explain it to somebody. That needs to be their test. Before
Zain
22:30
Before I come to you, do they have time, Corey? How do they have to assess the time horizon? Well,
Corey
22:33
they got a lot of time. They got a lot of time. Why do you say that? Well,
Corey
22:37
because this is the
Carter
22:37
the kind of thing that
Corey
22:38
that is not going to naturally leave the news cycle. I mean, Carrie Tate was posting new things even yesterday.
Corey
22:45
There are going to be a number of moments that people will be watching over the next bit, including the return of the legislature. I think that's next week at this point. Yeah. And what's the first QP going to be like? What are the questions going to be? What's Nenshi's response to the throne speech going to be? All of that is going to naturally happen over the next bit.
Corey
23:02
I guess I should say, in my mind, a lot of time is like you've got weeks, not months and years, right? But like you've got a lot of natural opportunities to continue to push this forward. forward.
Zain
23:12
Carter, comment on this before I get you to give a fair shake on the NDP and the UCP strategy here. But as
Zain
23:20
as it relates to time, how
Zain
23:22
how do you assess the current sort of dynamic around when the public becomes desensitized or dull to even new information, even scandalous new earth shattering information? If the premier is continuing to drag this out, muddy the waters as she has at what point does the public tune out or become dull i
Carter
23:42
think that the the challenge there is making sure that the public doesn't and the person to look to is
Carter
23:48
is uh probably pierre polyev we never became desensitized to the acts of tax we never became desensitized to
Carter
23:56
to the idea that we were paying we collectively not we the strategists but we
Carter
24:01
we became we don't become desensitized to it because
Carter
24:04
because it becomes definitive.
Zain
24:05
And I don't want to expose ourselves, but I think this is an appropriate time amongst friends. We don't pay taxes. No, we never have. Either as a corporation or as individuals. No, we certainly pay both. No, we don't. Well,
Zain
24:20
only speak for myself
Carter
24:20
myself and the corporation. I speak for yourself, but
Carter
24:23
We have a special deal with the government. It's very special.
Corey
24:28
I'm going to laugh if this results in either of you getting audited. I want you to know that. If
Zain
24:33
If we get audited, it's just content. We can do the whole audit. We
Zain
24:37
We can read the letter. That's true.
Corey
24:41
$10 tier access, right? Listening in on Carter's audit.
Zain
24:46
And his calls to CRA.
Zain
24:48
You'll make them live on the show.
Zain
24:50
And you can also call in. Like I've never filed
Corey
24:55
Jesus. You're all going to jail. You're all going to jail. This is going to be evidence in your federal
Corey
25:00
federal court tax trial. I
Carter
25:02
I have no idea where I went before I was so rudely
Zain
25:02
rudely informed. How ironic would it be that in order for us to pay taxes, the
Corey
25:06
the CRA would have to pay us first $6 a month?
Zain
25:13
great. But would we owe taxes on that? At what point does it end? It's circular, kind of like the Green Party logo. Just search it. Good point, Carter. The economy is a circle.
Zain
25:23
It's a circular economy, just like planet Earth.
Zain
25:27
It's going to end up being a historic economy.
Carter
25:28
economy. Where was I? I was rudely interrupted. Does anybody have any recollection? You said Pierre
Zain
25:32
Pierre Poliev. You said we never got desensitized with axe attacks. You were going somewhere in that. Yeah,
Carter
25:37
Yeah, because it became definitive. And I think that this has the opportunity to be a definitive story that defines the government. And, you
Carter
25:45
you know, it doesn't have this fall off because you're able to actually define it. Now, the government could walk away from it. The government could solve it like the liberals solved the tax, you know, the tax problem by walking away from it. But right now, it doesn't look like there's a solution to the problem that doesn't involve long term investigations, doesn't have long term reports, doesn't have, you know, even some sort of inquiry. there is a opportunity
Carter
26:12
opportunity to ride this all the way to the next election it's uh it's it is if it's done properly it is defining of a government and the fact that they doubled down on it and moved andre trump you know the only move was someone who was you
Carter
26:29
you know to cory's point not really involved um you know the that was the move that was taken this thing could run for the entire two and a a half years that are left in this in this uh in this government cycle is it two and a half it feels like it's been two and a half for a long time no
Carter
26:45
don't even know it's two
Corey
26:45
two at this well it is two and a half actually because they moved the election yeah
Zain
26:50
yeah carter i'll keep the floor with you well ucp strategy here what what is it what do they need to do well
Carter
26:57
well i mean sweeping it under the rug is their strategy i mean the the the the sliding this thing i mean their best case scenario is that this is a time uh
Carter
27:08
sensitive issue right where you
Carter
27:10
you move through this and and three
Carter
27:12
three months from now no one remembers it because you're in the middle of a different issue right you almost donald
Carter
27:16
donald trump this thing and there's two ways to do it you can do it the donald trump way where there's
Carter
27:20
there's a new crisis every 15 or 20 minutes so
Carter
27:23
so who can keep track of the the crisis 20 minutes ago like it's just right to
Zain
27:28
to to to be clear carter crisis of your own making to distract from this one or no matter
Carter
27:33
matter but you could do that you could you could that's one tactical
Zain
27:36
tactical pathway they have
Carter
27:37
have you can do a uh channel changer um
Carter
27:39
um you know several like
Zain
27:42
like every every 48 hours do something well
Carter
27:46
well that that seems to be the path that trump's on trump
Carter
27:48
trump has has redefined political uh
Carter
27:50
uh interactions it's just it's ridiculous and it's difficult to understand so
Zain
27:55
so that's one pathway for for team smith what else what other pathways do they have the
Carter
27:58
the other pathway is to uh just to you know just to do what they're doing now and that's weather it and
Carter
28:04
start to sweep it under the rug as best as possible you
Carter
28:07
you know i've taken action i've removed andre trombley from the head of alberta health uh and now he's the head of ahs so clearly that solved that problem um
Carter
28:15
um and uh there's no wrongdoing here um whistle whistle whistle look around somewhere else you know nothing going on it's just it's it's uh happiness and uh dovetails over here and it's just
Carter
28:28
know, we're doing the work that needs to be done. Albertans don't mind privatization and private services. This is just the NDP focused on private service delivery when really what we're doing is saving Albertans money.
Zain
28:41
Corey, what do you think tactically the UCP need to do here?
Corey
28:46
Well, why don't we talk a bit about what they are doing first? Because I think it's super interesting. Interesting. The press conference that Danielle Smith had with the health minister, LaGrange, it
Corey
28:56
it was weird. It was funny because she was basically indignant about an accusation people weren't really making and ignoring the accusation people were making, right? It's like, well, this is just an outrage that Alberta Health Services was not moving faster on changing to the private healthcare options we wanted and they were trying
Zain
29:17
trying to get their feet. It's very gaslighting,
Corey
29:18
gaslighting, yeah. Well, it was wild, right? And it was quite an interesting choice because it does muddy the waters a bit, I think, for people. And so, and these two things are not unrelated. Like the NDP, one of the reasons they need to get their shit together on the very clear, focused way in 30
Zain
29:34
30 seconds and three minutes. They need to give people a framework on how to think. Well,
Corey
29:37
Well, otherwise, there's just going to be more things thrown in. People will be like, I don't know what's going on. It sounds like AHS was fighting with the premier's office about transformation of healthcare. They threw some accusations. Like, there's so much, like, this isn't quite throwing a dead cat on the table. It's more like there's a bunch of real food, and you're throwing a bunch of fake food on the table, and you're saying all of this food is crazy, right? right? Well, it's almost
Zain
29:58
almost like they want the scandal to, the way they kind of kill the scandal is they only limit it to the 30 minute version of it. They're like, we'll give you more facts, we'll give you more additional context, we'll actually give you a summary, more, like, there's like all these things. And then at the end of the day, most people will leave that being like, I don't know if there's a there there. Well,
Corey
30:15
Well, I think that's part of it. But I actually think it's a bit different. I think what it is, is they've decided, well, there's going to be a scandal. People don't quite know what the scandal is. So we're just going to create a new scandal. And we're going to make ourselves the hero in the scandal. Like they've said, there's just too much there for people not to be a little bit upset about something. So let's just, let's make it the thing we're upset about, right? And let's push our agenda through it. And on a certain level, I think it's almost genius, right? Not sure it's going to work. Like, although I will say the reporter questions after were pretty soft, given everything going on.
Corey
30:50
But I do think that there's maybe an opportunity to, if you're the government, just keep riding that train. And yeah, like there's just a bunch of things. Nobody can explain it. There's a bunch of other details. Imagine that fictional conversation again, where you talk to your friends and say, yeah, you hear about this corrupt care scandal? And they say, oh, yeah, corrupt care. Right. Oh, totally get it. it and uh but wait didn't i hear like that was the premier being mad at alberta health services and they're like i don't know i mean maybe i think i vaguely heard something like that too and so you
Corey
31:19
you know that's that's a challenge that we have that's uh you know people's attention can get split in a million different ways and issues stack together and it's tough to disaggregate and it's
Zain
31:33
what do the ndp need to do tactically so
Zain
31:35
so and do you agree with cory's 3.30, 3.30, and they're doing the three well and the 30 minute well, and that there's a gap in the middle. So tell me A, that, and then B, okay, so you agree with that. What do they need to do tactically? How do you find the 30 second story? How do you iterate it? Do you iterate it? Is it the same thing over and over? How do you add depth to three seconds? This is a comms challenge we've been faced with multiple times ourselves in our professional lives. How do you substantively add add depth to three second. And then what does it look like? And what does it feel like? What does it need to look like? Well,
Corey
32:10
Well, and just to be clear to listeners, like we don't literally mean 30 minutes. We're
Corey
32:15
about like degrees of depth if you want to go further. And there's, you know, think about it in terms of like slogan, elevator pitch, the short description, the long description. That's the mental model here. 330, 330 is just a frame.
Carter
32:30
Yeah, but the 3.30, 3.30, I mean, basically, if you think of this as iteration, the
Carter
32:35
the first three doesn't change very much. The first three you want to keep as consistent as possible. That's where corrupt care could really work very well. It
Carter
32:43
It is a title that makes sense, that defines the issue. And then the next 30 seconds, you can define that in different ways. You can say the same thing different ways in the 30-second description over and over again. And the three minutes will change over time. Right. Like there's going to be multiple. Think of the three minutes as the Carrie Tate reporting. Right. Carrie has taken the 30 minute story and turned it into the three minute stories over and over again. And she's done an excellent job of making that very clear where the NDP are struggling. They don't need to necessarily define the three-minute piece. They can simply recirculate the media work there. They'll have to do some three-minute work when the media stop covering this. But for now, their greatest weakness is that they're not defining at all the 30-second definition. And that 30-second definition that Jarrett Wesley tweet is not in the wheelhouse of Nenshi. He needs to be able to say that at the beginning of every statement that he makes. on everything on
Carter
33:48
everything as we saw with the corrupt care scenario this government can't be trusted and tell the tell the tell
Carter
33:55
tell the 30 second piece give me a 15 second summary of why this government can't be trusted that ties it back to to the corrupt care issue um i love the phrasing corrupt care it's easy it's alliterative it's it's it's simple it's
Corey
34:12
it's okay like oh look
Corey
34:14
i i don't think it's bad but one of the challenges is it's it's very um it's
Corey
34:20
it's okay it's it's generic right it gets to the kind of the heart of like there's corruption here and so there's like if you want to say that's the pith of the accusation it's okay but it doesn't tell me anything about the nature of it like you uh you almost want to find like you
Corey
34:35
you know when you think about the great ones there's there's kind of the generic like the watergate the original watergate scandal was just talking about the hotel like it was like very descriptive just of like where this all went down the water gate complex right and then after that it was every dash gate was a reference to like that like it evoked something kind of immediately right and then there's like there was uh
Corey
35:00
abscam there was yeah like think of your favorite ones like they try to tell you like the nature of the corruption but um i
Corey
35:08
i don't know it's okay i don't have a problem with it it could stick it could be pretty good for them i
Zain
35:12
i have one more topic i want to cover outside of alberta and and but but can i get your your guys's final answer on the tactics for the ndp we talked about how to construct the message on the tactics like carter i'm gonna be i'm gonna be dense for for a second 30 second video that you play over and over and over again is that what we're talking about here is this is like is this you know like give me a sense of what they what they need to do right like don't
Carter
35:39
don't put the requirement on the audience right
Carter
35:41
right that would be what a 30 second video would do is put it would put the requirement on the audience the audience needs to find that what
Carter
35:47
what you do is you put the requirement on yourselves and
Carter
35:50
and the requirement on yourself is we're going to make sure that everything is headlined properly everything's got its own three three second headline and everything has a 30 second descriptor that ties us back to corrupt corrupt care.
Carter
36:03
Really, the best person in Canadian politics for this has been Pierre Polyev. Pierre Polyev has defined the Liberal
Carter
36:11
Liberal government in 30-second soundbites and three-second titles over and over and over again for the last, what, two years? I mean, when was he elected leader? He's been spectacular at it. His difficulty has been really making the 30-minute case and leaving the door open for the liberals to walk away from the allegation. But at the NDP,
Carter
36:35
NDP, you don't want to just say, well, here's our 30-second answer and now it's all set.
Carter
36:42
What you want to do is you want to make sure that 30-second answer shifts so that people remain interested in it, so that it's always new.
Carter
36:49
But the three-second and the foundational 30-minute can
Corey
36:56
Yeah, it largely wraps around, right? Right. And then, so
Corey
36:59
so if I'm the NDP, there's,
Corey
37:01
there's, I'm doing a couple of different things, right? There's a stream of activity. There's, there's stakeholder conversations, there's going out there, there's advertising is going to play a huge role in this if they're smart over the next bit, because when that media interest dies down, that's how they're going to keep it in the headlines. That's how they're going to keep poking
Corey
37:18
poking it. I, if I were them, I'd be working on like a pre-roll for YouTube tube that makes the case not just
Corey
37:26
just the words corrupt care but the case in six seconds 30 seconds is the longer form version and run that shit in front of everything so it feels like every albertan can explain it to their spouse exactly what's supposedly there maybe even head on address like there's a lot of smoke that's being thrown here but it boils down to this right so i those are some of the tactics but there's another tactic we haven't talked about out here the
Corey
37:52
not uniquely positioned but the ndp has a massive interest in actually getting more information i don't mean more information out there i mean more information like what else can they find out what other connections can they find because where the case is weakest right now if i'm being totally candid is the is
Corey
38:10
is the idea that so you know there's the idea that contracts are going to uh a party and people are saying are we getting value for money that's actually fairly well established that that was a conversation in government right and
Corey
38:25
there is unquestionably similar you know questions about um you know the turkish tylenol stuff right how
Corey
38:33
how much you care about them how much you care about the the change in the procurement rules your mileage will vary but like those things are fairly well established at the very least as as conversations that occurred within government these are not accusations from outside government they're conversations in government expressing concern about them that's pretty potent stuff but what is a little bit weak is the what's in it for them right so i i get that skyboxes are very expensive i think it's something i'm not saying it's nothing but if you really want to take this to the next level you need to show a little bit more quid pro quo than that right yeah
Corey
39:08
what are they getting? And so I think that that's something that the NDP should spend a little bit of time and energy and focus and just chase down anything on there. And I'm not saying there's a there there, but if there is, that's what takes this from level one to level 99 in a heartbeat, because that's where it becomes like the circle is complete, like the Green Party logo. At that point, the circle is complete. Oh, that's a great episode title. The circle is complete.
Corey
39:34
complete. Yeah, never gonna
Corey
39:35
use that now, because you said that.
Zain
39:38
Hey, Corey, I want to get your take first on this, because I gave Carter a fair shake on a version of this last time. Pierre
Zain
39:45
Pierre Polyev during the hockey game last night ran, I believe it was a 60-second ad. Yeah, I watched it. Okay, good. Him putting up the flag. Him putting up the flag. All jacked, his muscles up there. On the second half. But the first half was still very much about how Canada's broken. Yeah, it was. Broken, broken, broken.
Zain
40:00
Corey, should he retire broken? broken should he should that be retired right now from a pure poly of message handbook um or do you agree with him that it's more broken than ever before and he's going to keep saying it and i asked carter a version of this on axed attacks which is why i'm giving you a fair shake on this this time first but he he has not backed away from it and we know that because there's evidence from last night yeah
Corey
40:22
yeah so the thing that i kept screaming at my podcast which is actually literally my my podcast when i was listening to you two talking about all of this is like he's still ahead in the polls by so much like let's let's not pretend what he's doing is not working right like there's a couple of polls that showed the liberals in the lead there's a couple of hypotheticals with mark carney as leader that shows some pretty good like work for the liberals but by and large the consensus of polls is still the you know the cpc is up by 10 points you know it's a really big it's still majority government territory here it's not you got you got to talk for 60 minutes to give a commercial to carney last episode let's chat about reality here the
Corey
41:03
guy is winning and so you don't want to entirely throw away a winning strategy that's what part of me says but the other part of me does say okay well you've got to figure out when you've got to jump off the train and um i i did think he didn't do a terrible job of tying in his canada is broken that's why we need to make it strong messaging there yeah
Corey
41:24
but i just i i can't stop shaking the feeling that he's and probably because i'm one of these people too but like he's one of these people who would rather be right than win you know like he's like i fucking told you canada's broken this is evidence of it but that's not what wins elections i told you so doesn't win elections you know you've got to go where the people are going and i think um i
Corey
41:46
i think he's got to be careful that he's not riding that train too long and it just goes right into a wall so um it's interesting to watch but he's still leading and i think we have to have a certain humility to it and suggest that they've probably focus group this and tested this a bit but i continue to not understand the canada first i continue not to understand why you're riding canada is broken and i just think that there is a more natural message of saying we've
Corey
42:12
we've weakened our country over the past eight years we need to to be strong we can be strong we can do these things like i just think that's so much more available to him than hanging on to old messaging and parodying trump messaging like that just doesn't feel like it's hitting the moment he'll
Zain
42:28
he'll probably still win very sober very considered carter um by cory hogan unsurprisingly uh should pierre poliev uh get rid of broken yeah
Carter
42:38
um he should it's uh it's it's been co-opted it's been taking advantage it's but i mean i i respect the double down and i think that you know as the as the creators of the double down which i think we are um you know the double down is uh you
Carter
42:54
you should respect it when you see it in the wild and we're seeing it in the wild but i think we're seeing it applied at the wrong time in the wrong place i mean he needs to step up and recognize that the time has changed and the canada is broken narrative narrative isn't going to work. And to Corey's point, I mean, the
Carter
43:13
the polls aren't a 10-point lead anymore. The
Carter
43:15
The polls may be a five-point lead, but
Carter
43:23
Listen, I grant that you're not getting the most recent polls sent to you.
Corey
43:27
Oh, I forgot. I forgot that you are... I'm
Carter
43:29
I'm kind of a big deal. Did
Corey
43:31
Did you miss the
Carter
43:33
think you did. i don't
Carter
43:34
don't think he was part of the b team conference call um but if he was he'd have seen uh all the most recent polling all
Corey
43:42
it oh well it's the story you guys tell each other but uh 338 canada's average right now is 42 for the cpc and 29 for the liberals well
Zain
43:51
he's up i agree with cory he's up right like there's it's undeniable i
Carter
43:56
disagree with cory and with the numbers okay
Carter
43:59
because Because I'm making my own spreadsheet. Fuck you all.
Zain
44:03
Okay. That's good. It's good. It's very similar to his bug out strategy. By
Carter
44:08
By the way, looking better
Carter
44:10
and better. Yeah, it is actually
Corey
44:11
actually looking pretty good. I'm beginning to weaken my opposition
Zain
44:14
opposition to it. Corey's going to want a coffin
Corey
44:15
coffin right beside you or whatever.
Carter
44:16
Well, Corey's plan was to fly to Germany for fuck's sake. How stupid was that? That was a
Corey
44:21
a bad mistake. That was a bad plan. No, it's a great plan. You know what? They've
Corey
44:24
They've got protections in place.
Carter
44:26
this figured out. They're ready for this.
Carter
44:28
this. So does Canada.
Corey
44:30
what protections do they have in place cory what
Corey
44:33
what protections do you really want me to go into like the constitution we're gonna leave it
Zain
44:37
it there that's a wrap on episode 1848 eye of the strategist my name is zane velgey with me as always uh stephen carter cory hogan and we shall see