Zain: This is a strategist episode 1848H. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, well, he's not here, Carter. I was about to say it because I go with his name first, but you know what? We don't care. Corey Hogan is not here, but guess who is? Stephen Carter. Guy, how are you doing? I'm doing really well. I'm
Carter: I'm doing really well. I'm doing really well. My feet are cold.
Zain: really well. My feet are cold.
Carter: And I'm sorry I left you hanging there. I forgot to press the record button.
Carter: Yeah,
Zain: Yeah, it was a pregnant pause.
Zain: Once I figured
Carter: figured it out, though, things went really much better. Things went better, and you were a pro. You muscled through.
Zain: People don't know this, but we do a lot of the preamble talk really to help Corey with his nerves. He's extremely nervous when it comes to doing this, and we don't actually need a lot of preamble talk between you and I, because a lot is left unsaid and a lot is very much left aligned. Basically, we don't
Carter: Basically, we don't want to know about each other's family.
Zain: Well, we just know. We just know about each other's family. Corey's really on the outside looking in, needs a lot of that preamble. Does he ask
Carter: a lot of that preamble. Does he ask
Carter: ask for me?
Zain: me? Why are you doxing my son? publicly what's what's going on carter that's that's not i'm not putting
Carter: that's not i'm not putting a picture of him up or anything like that oh
Zain: oh you know what we should that'd
Zain: that'd be nice you know what you know what i've
Carter: that'd be nice you
Carter: know what i've editor can you just throw up a picture of a random child just throw up a picture of a random child that'd be that'd be great thanks very much yeah absolutely yeah
Zain: can you just throw up
Zain: yeah absolutely yeah
Zain: that's perfect yeah thank you um yeah i just like your child
Carter: yeah i just like your child no
Carter: no
Zain: no i appreciate it i i reversed course very quickly from you
Carter: you know know jesus
Zain: you know know jesus
Carter: jesus christ i
Zain: i
Carter: care about your kid and this is the way you treat me they
Zain: call that heterodox that's what they do that's what the conservatives are using these days you know this term yeah this i think that's what it is no it's just it's a jd vance term by
Zain: the way did you see jd vance just fucking rip a hole into into europe or try his level best with the the limited skill set he has to do so yeah
Carter: i mean it's a limited skill set and i'm not sure that it actually succeeded but i appreciate his effort uh
Zain: carter like i said we don't need the preamble talk we can get right into it. Let's do a
Carter: a
Zain: a
Carter: a show.
Zain: show.
Carter: show.
Zain: Here's the thing. One of the things I admire about you, and I have for a long time, is that unlike Corey, who gives very long and cogent analysis, he often comes to the wrong conclusions. You, on the other hand, Stephen Carter, you're not one for the analysis. You feel political strategy in your bones, in your gut. And so what I want to do is I want to race through or run through as many as we can of strategic things happening right now. I'm going to give you strategic statements, and you're going to tell me whether they're right or they're wrong, wrong and you're going to justify a bit why but you're going to give me where the stephen carter political strategy gut is and i say this may sound like a shtick and and like everything on the show it is but i do think this is one of your superpowers i do think this is one of the things you have um a keen and unique ability to do is tell us which direction to go is it left or is it right why you've got it very quickly you don't need a lot of time to to think it through uh often and you don't think it through. Often I don't think at all,
Carter: this is one
Carter: Often I don't think at all, Zane. Unlike Corey. Often I don't think at all. Who overthinks
Zain: Zane. Unlike Corey. Often I don't think at all. Who overthinks it and then ends up at the wrong conclusion most of the time. And he
Carter: And he starts talking
Zain: talking
Carter: talking and it takes six,
Zain: six, seven
Carter: six, seven
Carter: seven minutes for him to get to his point.
Zain: point. You know, people think I'm the reason this show is long. Go back. Study the game tape, people. It's fucking Corey Hogan, okay? No, it's both
Carter: point. You know, people think
Carter: both of you. I speak approximately 14
Zain: approximately 14
Carter: 14% of the time.
Carter: Not that anybody's keeping track. No one is. This is big for me because I'm going to get all the way up to 34% today. thing carter
Zain: carter here's what i want to do it's called the stephen carter um on the spot you're going to give me the on the spot answer to each of these things okay and i'm going to just run them right and as soon as i'm done we're going to end this episode because people are going to get more value out of that than they do a normal episode in fact we may permanently banish cory after this well
Carter: going to just run
Carter: we'd
Carter: split the money two ways right
Carter: i'd still get my 60 and then you get 40 which would be pretty good for you it's
Zain: i'd still get
Zain: it's an upgrade from where i'm at right now which is four it
Carter: it is it's a big upgrade you're welcome carter here's the first one pierre
Zain: polliev had a big rally this weekend it was his canada first rally he also introduced this this broader concept of uh of canada first and i should say he also reintroduced axe
Zain: axe attacks here's my strategic statement to you pierre polliev should at axe axe attacks it's over bud get rid of it it's done carter he
Carter: has to walk away from it uh and it's not just that he has to walk away from the idea of canada first the
Carter: the the man only knows how to one play one game and because he only knows how to play one game he's walking right into the trap that the carney and liberal people are putting forward even the liberal party of canada not noted for their uh spectacular communication skills have produced a video that's
Carter: that's going after After, you
Carter: know, Pierre Palliev in such a fashion that we've never seen before out
Carter: out of this group of communicators, because it's one note and it doesn't recognize the time, the
Carter: the ability to take Canada
Carter: Canada first and play it against American first, America first, and to show all the different times that he said that Canada is broken. I
Carter: mean, there's some really great
Carter: great opportunities
Carter: opportunities for the Liberals and great opportunities for the
Carter: the Mark Carney campaign.
Carter: And Pierre
Carter: Pierre Pellievre is just walking right into it. And
Carter: And he just doesn't know how
Carter: how to play a different game. And that's what I love. I love it when there's a political operative on the field that doesn't know when it's time to turn the page and actually take a different page out of the strategic book. so
Zain: so let me push back a bit he for to him canada first was turning of the page no right
Carter: right for him but
Carter: but for him turning the page is like taking one of those books that you read to sufi and it's got all those thick pages with no words on it that's that's how he's turning the page because he's he's working at a juvenile level and this is no longer juvenile games this is this this is now for all the marbles and pierre polliev just frankly doesn't know how to play at this level he knew how to beat trudeau that was easy now he's got to try and beat mark carney christopher freeland and the liberal party are
Zain: you saying that's like a taller task like is that is that what you're like talking about here
Carter: here right now it appears to be because the
Carter: the times have changed donald trump took office um
Carter: um
Carter: um everything
Carter: everything shifted the national anthem's being booed people are buying canadian people are you know wanting to bring back the i am canadian television ads uh the the zeitgeist has shifted and once that zeitgeist shifts you have to be able to shift with it or you're going to be left behind and pierre pauliev has he's desperate he's desperate to make the old hits play again it's like listening to the bare naked ladies frankly
Zain: wait so tell me if the statement is correct
Zain: axe attacks got pierre pauliev to where he is now Now, first place, shit ton of money, credentials, and credibility to be able to be in the pole position. But
Zain: it's not going to get him to what the finish line seems to be with the new emergence. Is that a fair statement in your mind? Because my strategic question, you should ax, ax the tax. You're saying, ax that, Zane, ax that. But in addition to that, get rid of Canada First, which he's just recently, that is his rebrand effort. Right.
Carter: in addition to
Carter: The new paradigm in which he's going to be governed and
Carter: and evaluated is
Carter: is his maturity and his capacity to deal with Donald Trump.
Carter: And you're not going to be able to deal with Donald Trump using
Carter: using a three word slogan. I mean, Donald
Carter: Donald Trump only responds to strength and Pierre Polyev is not strong. I'm
Zain: going to throw two liberal strategic statements out at you, and you tell me why they're right or wrong, okay? Okay. I'll do them one after the other. Maybe I'll just go with this one first.
Zain: Liberals should do and put as much energy as they can to having audio and video and text statements of Pierre Polyev saying Canada feels broken over and over again. They should take that out from the archives not too long ago, folks. We're talking about mere weeks and months ago. That was part of the Pierre Polyev lexicon. It's part of the ad that made him famous and catapulted him two summers ago.
Carter: That
Zain: Liberals should take that, dust it off, and make sure Canadians understand what Pierre Polyev feels of this country. Is that right or wrong? Is that the right strategic thing to do, Stephen Carter?
Carter: It's the right decision because right now Canadians are feeling a pride in their country that we haven't felt for a while. And frankly, we're against anybody who's picking on us right now. And
Carter: And Pierre Polyev was picking on us. Pierre Polyev was hitting us when we were down instead of trying to lift us when we're down. And he doesn't know how to lift. This is the right strategy for the liberals. The liberals should be doing this as much as possible, using his words against him, using his tone against him, using the way he looks, the way he sounds against him. What do you mean by the last two
Zain: What do you mean by the last two things, tone and sound? And the way he sounds. take
Carter: And the way he sounds. take
Carter: a look at the like it's
Carter: such disgust in his voice canada is broken it is it is a disgust it is a it's almost like this place sucks
Zain: it's almost like this place sucks right like this place is fucking worst right like
Carter: place is fucking worst
Carter: right like it's like my parents when they walked into our house after i threw that party in high school you know this place is disgusting this house is broken we're never going to be able to sell it i can't believe leave you did this um you
Carter: you know that was kind of that's
Carter: that's how he feels and he feels like he's
Carter: disapproving of our ways disapproving of who we are and
Carter: and we
Carter: we were buying it for two years we were like being pushed down and
Carter: and we were buying it and then another
Carter: another bully came along and
Carter: and we saw how to actually deal with that bully and that's the pushback and
Carter: and all pierre boliev knows how to do is to be that bully that says it's broken well god damn it we're not interested in who's gonna on someone telling us it's broken. We're interested in someone telling us how to fix it.
Zain: The beauty of this segment is that we don't have to get necessarily deep because I feel like you've got a lot of these answers at the tip of your tongue.
Zain: Liberal risk here. Like if you were just like sitting there and you're like, fuck it, this is like a slam dunk. This guy for the last three years has said this country is broken. This is now time to unite behind the flag. What would be the risk that you'd bring up in the room of this strategy? Or at least the cautionary note, because I know you're for it, Right. But there's also guardrails and cautionary notes that you'd want to probably add to your team if this is the direction they're going.
Carter: Don't overcommit. Be prepared to turn the page. You know, unlike him, unlike him, everything is coming out at us. And Donald Trump is is, you
Zain: him, unlike him,
Zain: is
Carter: you know, he's making us feel one way today, but he can make us feel another way tomorrow. moral right
Carter: right we don't know how we're going to feel because we are being manipulated and bullied and pushed and shoved by another person by another entity and how that's going to make us feel three weeks from now is different than how it makes us feel today so run those ads today but be prepared that three weeks from now you're going to need very different creative that's not necessarily going to be about Pierre you know drawing the contrast or drawing the comparison between Pierre Karapaliev, and Donald Trump.
Carter: Trump. I mean, you've got to be willing and able to be flexible and to recognize the timeliness of the message structure.
Zain: So maybe you'll agree with this next statement, too, because this is the second one about the liberals. For the longest time, we've said that the comparison towards Trump and the we, I mean, the collective we, the pundit class, the political class, that it's not necessarily wise to just call the person you're running against, if they wear the conservative jersey, Trump or Trump-like. No,
Carter: I think this is the beauty of it. But
Zain: of it.
Zain: But the statement is, this moment is different for the liberals, and they should connect Pierre Polyev directly to Trump.
Carter: Agree
Zain: Agree or disagree with that statement? Or refine it, optimize it for me.
Carter: I disagree with the statement, because actually what they're doing with Pierre Polyev isn't comparing him to Trump.
Carter: Can you inform people what
Zain: Can you inform people what they're doing? Because I actually don't have a good sense of it either. Tell me what they're doing right now. What I
Carter: right now. What I think that they're doing is, I think what they're doing is they're showing, Showing, not telling. How
Carter: How often have I said show, don't tell in this conversation, right? Always show, don't tell. Pierre Polyev is the Trump of Canada, is telling. Putting
Carter: Pierre Polyev saying that Canada is broken, saying that Canada first, you know, immediately before Trump says America first. Imitation is a form of flattery. I mean, my God, this is those ads were devastating, not because they said he was Trump, not because they they implied that he's got trump-like tendencies not because they name called him and called him a fascist or uh you know any of the number of things that the left has been known to do to the right and the right to the left um this
Carter: instead was just simply showing how it was on how it was happening showing how it was all unfolding in real time showing his words comparing them to trump's words and it was a time where we're willing to listen and this is where it comes back to kind of your second point in that
Carter: zane which is the timeliness of this particular message when someone is willing to hear something you
Carter: you have to say it
Carter: right um this goes back to nenshi right campaigning where people live or where people are everybody thought oh they're on social media ergo we're campaigning on social media no we campaigned where people were we talked to them with the language that they wanted to hear at the time that they wanted to hear it sometimes people People don't want long winded explanations. Sometimes they do want long winded explanations. Sometimes they want the six word headline. Sometimes they want the 20 second summary. That is how you communicate with people. This is where I think, frankly, the liberals have found either by luck or skill. I'm not sure which they have found that people are wanting to listen to their voices now. And that has changed the entire paradigm. So
Zain: campaigning where people live
Zain: we campaigned
Zain: in that sense, though, Carter, like, are you suggesting that that there is further appetite for showing the Polyev Trump comparisons that many have written off and said, this is not sufficient enough? This is not strategic enough. This is not going to meet the moment. No one wants to hear this. You think there is? And tell me about how you assess the window. If you agree that there's an appetite, which I hear you saying, how big, how wide, how narrow is this window? How do you figure out when people have reached there? Because it's not like natural convention where people want to be like, my local domestic politician is like Trump. It's almost like the comedic equivalent of talking about airport and airline jokes, right? Everyone's got one. Everyone's got a comparison. They're relatively hacky, right?
Zain: right? Right. So how do you assess what the strategic window here is if you're the liberals or the NDP or a third party group wanting to take a strip off of Pierre Polyev?
Carter: The window is as long as you can show and not tell. The
Carter: window is as long as that occurs. Like, for example, if
Carter: if instead you start talking, I'm going to pick up on your airline thing because that gives me an opportunity. And, you know, I always jump on these opportunities, even if I sound like a hack to you, to you. Well, you are a hack. All the rest of the listeners love this shit.
Zain: Well, you are a hack. All the rest of the listeners
Carter: But Donald Trump
Carter: Trump fired FAA workers
Carter: workers this week, right? Yeah.
Zain: Yeah. To say
Carter: To say if
Carter: if Pierre Poliev wins, he's going to fire or decimate our airline industry as well by doing the exact same thing that Trump did. That's weak. That doesn't have any basis in reality. That's just saying, oh, look, he's just like this other guy. He's just like Donald Trump. Well, that's ridiculous. That's not going to fly. But
Zain: That's just saying,
Carter: But when you've got the words and you can actually show how he's behaving in a similar way, like I would probably show Donald Trump saying the exact same phrase over and over and over and over and over and over again. And then just show the axe, the tax. Like there's just, you know, there's great opportunities to start to show axe,
Carter: axe, the tax. Like campaigning and sloganeering, right? That sort
Zain: axe, the tax. Like campaigning and sloganeering, right? That sort of vibe.
Carter: What's the answer?
Carter: What's the answer, not the slogan?
Carter: Right. Donald Trump doesn't have an answer. Pierre Polyev doesn't have an answer. You can you can show that you don't have to tell that. And I think that that's where as long as they can show it, then
Carter: then
Carter: then they can make the comparison. As soon as they have to start telling it, then I think they're really in trouble. Carter,
Zain: there's new polling out. This is one of the few polls I've seen about the liberal leadership race. It says, ultimately, that the race is closer than the Carney coronation that seems to be conveyed right now, at least sentimentally amongst organizers
Carter: organizers and the media at large. It's a Main Street poll, right?
Zain: Yes, that's the Main Street poll I'm alluding to.
Zain: Yeah, yeah, it's a Main Street poll I'm alluding to. I'm not going to break down
Carter: I'm not going to break down why that's something I'm worried about. I'm not going to break that down.
Zain: down. Here's the thing.
Zain: Here's my strategic statement. Tell me if you agree with it, disagree it, and how to optimize it.
Zain: Conservatives should stop acting like Carney is the heir apparent.
Carter: Conservatives should pay a hell of a lot less attention to the liberal leadership race and start paying a hell of a lot more attention to what their answer to the question, what are you going to do for me, is.
Carter: Because asking the tax isn't the answer to the question anymore.
Carter: So what are you going to do for this country? What are you going to do to help lift us up should be what they're focused on, not trying to tear down Carney. The problem is that Jenny Byrne and Pierre Polyev have this capacity to
Carter: to destroy.
Carter: An unbelievable laser
Zain: An unbelievable laser-like singular target, and arguably that job has been completed. Some
Carter: Some of the best destruction communications
Carter: communications in the world, right? They are some of the best communicators at that thing, but
Carter: but they don't have the legs to destroy Mark
Carter: Carney right now. They don't have the legs to destroy Mark Carney and Christopher Freeland and Karina Gould.
Carter: If Main Street's correct, and it is a closer race than anybody thinks it is,
Carter: first
Carter: first of all, we
Carter: didn't see any riding
Carter: riding-by-riding information. It was not weighted.
Zain: It was not weighted. It was a point race.
Carter: point race. right so um
Carter: um very
Carter: very very concerned about that particular uh
Carter: uh information but let's say just for shits and giggles that they're correct um
Carter: um that
Carter: means that any one of the three front
Carter: front runners could wind up winning this thing um
Carter: um this
Carter: means that if
Carter: you're Pierre Polyev you should be doing your background research to get ready to destroy them in the three weeks you're going to have between them getting elected and the federal election being answered or being called don't
Carter: don't try and destroy them in the midst of their leadership campaign when they're too strong it's
Carter: it's like they've cast a spell around themselves and they just can't be beaten and
Carter: and yeah i'm reading fantasy right now why
Carter: why do you ask what
Zain: what are you what are you what are you reading what
Carter: what
Zain: what
Carter: what are you reading a book okay
Carter: pretty
Carter: good book pretty good it's like harry potter but different old
Zain: old school book yeah i
Carter: yeah i like i'm getting ready i want to read sufi the uh the
Zain: like i'm getting ready i want to read
Carter: the harry potter series oh
Zain: yeah well Well, yes. I have to wait probably four
Carter: yes. I have to wait probably four more years, six more years.
Carter: He's pretty advanced. He's pretty good. I think he could start right now. I think he could start right now. I'm coming over tonight. He's only two.
Zain: coming over tonight. He's only two.
Zain: Carter, listen. Can I tell you something? We have rattled off, I don't know how many, but more than we would have if Corey Hogan were here. I just want to let the audience know that, and I want to let you know that, that you are—and what value would we have gotten? Don't
Carter: value would we have
Carter: Don't use this as an excuse to finish it in the 20-minute mark.
Carter: People will lose their shit if we just do 20 minutes. You
Zain: You know what? I wasn't going to, but now I want to desperately finish up the talk. No, you're not allowed
Carter: No, you're not allowed to. People will lose their shit.
Carter: You know what we should do for the other 30?
Zain: You know what we should do for the other 30? We should actually have you read Harry Potter.
Carter: actually have
Zain: Just have you read excerpts of— It'd be so
Carter: Just have you read excerpts of— It'd be so good. It'd be so good. Almost like biblical text. We'd probably get sued.
Zain: biblical text. We'd probably get sued.
Zain: You don't have a religion, so maybe this could be it. You could just read it as a biblical text. It is
Carter: It is my biblical text. That is how
Carter: how I do it. Thoughts
Zain: do it. Thoughts on J.K. Rowling, Carter, while
Zain: we're on the topic?
Carter: Oh, thank you. Thank you, Zane. Zane, while we're at it, would you like to see me juggle fire torches and not get burned? No. I'm not going to break that down.
Zain: Carter, we've gone through so many topics. So much value has been given to people who have missed our episodes. Arguably more value than they would have gotten over three episodes that included Corey. That's what I say. And I know that's what you're going to say right now, too.
Carter: I'll tell you something. The Carter and Hogan episodes, well
Carter: well
Zain: well
Carter: well
Carter: well-loved.
Carter: Well-loved.
Zain: Well-loved.
Carter: Well-loved. yeah
Carter: yeah but
Carter: the zane and the zane and carter episodes are well loved too basically it's any episode i'm in people love let
Zain: me tell you this i've got i've got about six more of these things you want to hammer out six more do you need a break
Carter: we're
Carter: gonna have word from our sponsor and
Zain: gonna have word from
Carter: and then we'll and then we'll come back with it and then we'll then we'll continue what
Zain: what do you mean a word from our sponsor have you not heard
Carter: everything's upside down right now exactly
Carter: where i was going
Zain: oh it's too early isn't it you want to
Carter: isn't it you want to talk about a hack uh hack airport joke there it is baby there
Zain: there you go hack airline material uh carter
Zain: carter let's go here okay
Carter: uh
Zain: uh this is a big one actually this
Zain: one might take us a few minutes okay
Zain: okay actually there's two carny ones i want to go with and i'll go with the big ones oh good carny
Carter: ones oh good carny that's gonna be good for me car
Carter: car for my potential career that's
Zain: for my potential career that's right carper yeah carper which is the carny and and carter and harper uh oh that's nice trifecta Yeah, that's Carper. Carney's Stephen Harper brag that
Carter: yeah carper
Carter: oh that's nice trifecta
Zain: Harper asked me to be finance minister is
Zain: a solid comms choice by Mark Carney.
Zain: Yes, no, optimize it for me. So for the context, Rosemary Barton's Sunday morning show, Carney mentions that, you know, amongst other things, he's been asked to serve publicly before, including and surprisingly to many, myself included, by one Stephen Harper to be finance minister. And Carney mentioned a date that was, I believe, 2012
Carter: 2012 that he was asked to do that.
Zain: asked
Zain: It's
Zain: It's a solid brag. It's a solid comms strategy. It's a solid brag. Carter, it's a thing that's already happened. So you're not going to do the campaign much damage by giving your assessment on it. But it's a solid brag by Mark Carney. Yes, no, optimize. You
Carter: know, I didn't like it.
Carter: I didn't like it. I don't like the idea of walking away from public service when being asked. And I feel that this is the problem with the Carney story. And I love the Carney story. I think the Carney story is super strong. I think it's really solid. but if you were to point to a weakness to it, it has been that he has been asked to serve and hasn't served.
Carter: He has been asked to serve a number of times. Now, one could argue that serving as the Bank of Canada governor is public service. One could argue that serving as the Bank of England governor is public service. I'm
Carter: sure that Mark Carney would make that argument if he was sitting here.
Carter: But
Carter: it's not being the finance minister of
Carter: of an elected government. You
Carter: You
Zain: You mean like finance minister is different. That's a different type of service you would argue. I
Carter: You mean like finance
Carter: of service you would argue. I think that that's a – I
Carter: I have a higher bar. Why
Zain: a higher bar. Why do you think that? Why
Carter: Why do you think that the Bank
Zain: think that the Bank of Canada
Zain: Canada governor versus front bench of a political party, why is that different levels of service?
Carter: front
Carter: Well, I think that one is accountable and the
Carter: the other is not as accountable, right? Like you get a five-year appointment to those Bank of England, Bank of Canada appointments. You're not really accountable to the people. And
Carter: And when you're the Finance Minister of the Government of Canada, you are accountable to the people. When you're running to become the Prime Minister of the country, you're accountable to the people. And I would really like to see Mark Carney take a position
Carter: position of public accountability to the people. And I think that he has through his his launch speech. I think he did through, you know, he is showing that he wants to be that. But I don't think that humble bragging about how you've been invited by every prime minister since the early 2000s to be a finance minister, because
Carter: because there's only been two saying, do you see what I did there? And
Zain: And I do see what you did there. Yeah. Yeah.
Carter: And I do
Zain: Yeah.
Carter: Yeah. But it's,
Zain: Yeah. But
Carter: it's, it
Carter: just it falls flat for me. It
Zain: falls flat for you because of what it says about his lack of commitment, which is what I hear you say, or does it fall flat for you because it opens up a line of questioning where conservatives are like, well, technically he didn't ask you, Harper could come out. It kind of creates its own sub-narrative where it undermines credibility. What do you think of that sort of story as related to putting out this anecdote by Carney on national television? Well, I mean,
Carter: mean,
Carter: mean, it is dangerous, isn't it? You
Carter: You know, like when someone- And I don't know where this
Zain: someone- And I don't know where this goes. i have no idea where this bouncing ball goes right you know
Carter: bouncing ball goes right you know
Carter: i had the uh hottest
Carter: girl in grade 12 asked me to go to the to
Carter: to grad with her sure
Zain: i said no right
Carter: yeah but
Zain: yeah but
Carter: but i said no um
Carter: um you
Carter: you know that's that probably isn't a true story
Carter: um i
Carter: i i would imagine he's got receipts otherwise
Carter: otherwise he wouldn't have said it but
Carter: uh
Carter: uh it's a little bit risky calling harper down on your head when you're kicking the shit out
Carter: out of uh pierre
Carter: pierre prelieve so so dramatically i'm
Carter: i'm not sure i would have done it i I just don't like it. It doesn't work for me.
Zain: Here's a simpler statement, but perhaps more to unpack. Carney, as soon as he wins, assuming he does, should call a snap election based on his plan to battle Trump on tariffs. He
Carter: should call a snap election.
Zain: Based on – do you agree with the second part of the statement? Based on his – as a referendum on his tariff plan against Trump? Or
Carter: Based on –
Zain: position it as much as he can or best as he can on that question?
Carter: You know, I struggle with this. Why
Carter: should we ever call an election? election
Carter: what what is the what's the point of of calling an election i mean obviously it's to give people their due it's to give them their opportunity to speak and to choose but
Carter: but this idea that we have elections on major issues um
Carter: um and that the major issue is in fact defining ultimately
Carter: ultimately it's a personality and popularity contest most of the time so i mean outside of the free trade election in what 19 good
Carter: god when was that 1988 this
Zain: is the pre-nafta you're talking about yeah the you
Carter: is the pre
Carter: you're talking about
Carter: yeah the you You know, outside of that, when was the last time we had an election that we thought, oh,
Carter: oh, it was a single-issue election, and it really turned on that? To
Zain: To your point, they never are, right? Like, they never or rarely are. So when we say we're going to
Carter: when we say we're going to get a mandate, we're going to go get a mandate to do these things. For these things.
Zain: these things. For these things.
Carter: Yeah, I'm going to go get a mandate to go do this. That's not how it actually works. I get it. I'm like, yeah,
Zain: That's not how it actually works. I get it. I'm
Carter: yeah, you can get a mandate. You can get a mandate to do the
Carter: the things, but
Carter: but you're getting a mandate because of trust. you're getting a mandate because people
Carter: people want your style of thinking it's larger than any specific issue and
Carter: it fits more within a brand structure and that brand is what people are are buying at the particular at that moment and sometimes the brand can last 10 years and sometimes the brand can last 20 years sometimes the brand only lasts three or four years um but
Carter: but in
Carter: in in the case of carney He
Carter: should call in the early election because his brand is ridiculously strong and
Carter: and that's why
Zain: why – Is it just untested enough that he can get away with an extra 30 days if there's something in the window such as a plan on tariffs and wrapping himself up in the flag and looking like the adult in the room? He just skates by it for another 30 days. This is no slight against Carney. There's no slight against Carney. But this is
Carter: This is no slight against Carney.
Zain: perhaps part of the calculation. It's not that his brand is strong. I just think his brand is untested.
Carter: You know, you walk into the grocery store, there's new Coke, you pick up new Coke, you buy the new Coke and you drink the new Coke and you're like, that wasn't that bad. Then everybody else starts complaining about it and you're like, yeah, I didn't like it either, right?
Carter: right? Like the truth of the matter is when the new brand is appearing, people get excited about the new brand and
Carter: and they buy the new brand.
Carter: That's why you see companies rebrand themselves all the time, right?
Carter: right? Alberta government telephones is gone. gone it's
Carter: it's telus telus is an infinitely better brand it's
Carter: it's the same as it was except for now it's got everything else involved but nonetheless like it's basically when you've got brand opportunity and you've got brand capacity
Carter: capacity you take advantage of and
Carter: that's what doug ford did and
Carter: that's what um mark carney should do or frankly christian freeland or
Carter: or frankly Lastly, Karina
Carter: Karina Gould, whoever
Carter: wins the leadership should
Carter: should run,
Carter: don't walk to an election.
Zain: Run into an election. But I'm still I still want to spend a bit more time testing the
Zain: tariff idea, because one of the reasons Carney or Gould or Freeland have a chance is because Trump is now part of the potential ballot box question, at least for a growing crop of Canadians. I'm not going to say a majority of Canadians, but it's enough to have Pierre Poliev pivot his strategy and do Canada First rallies and make axe to tax secondary. I know you've argued both of those should go away, but it's enough to get the leader of the opposition who's been on the same track to respond and read the room. And so one of the things that Carney or any of the leadership candidates that emerge would be doing is reading the room. Why not try to, in
Zain: that moment of those 30 days, explicitly say this is about Trump? Tariffs are a Trump question. Why not say that this is my plan against Trump? In case something happens, if something happens, to ensure that the campaign question that you feel like is advantageous to you still remains part of the conversation 30 days later, which can be weeks in politics, as we have talked about in the past. But this is exactly my
Carter: a Trump question.
Carter: But this is exactly my point. It can be weeks. Like, we're looking at 10, 15 weeks to an election, right? Something like that. Yeah.
Zain: Yeah. Yeah. So we're sitting mid-March. Yeah. Like, can we talk about the timelines a bit, just if you're okay with it? so we sit here like we can talk about the timelines mid
Carter: Yeah. So we're
Carter: we're sitting mid
Carter: here like we can talk about the timelines mid
Zain: mid-feb he's he or or more than likely mark someone there's someone when someone will be someone wins on march
Carter: -feb
Carter: someone
Carter: someone
Carter: wins on march the 8th right nine is that right nine
Zain: nine is that right nine nine three eight something like that yeah yeah
Carter: nine three eight
Carter: yeah um
Zain: um what happens they're running so you're thinking like that that's that's that's three weeks from now by the way right
Carter: so someone's got you got to form a cabinet yeah
Carter: you got to put a new spin on government you form a cabinet you
Zain: a cabinet
Carter: You do something, and
Carter: then two
Carter: two weeks in, three weeks in, sometime before the prorogament is over, the
Carter: prorogation. Why do I always say prorogament? I don't know. Prorogation is over. I
Zain: prorogament?
Zain: Prorogation is over. I
Zain: I know. It's a better word.
Carter: I know. It's a better word.
Zain: It's a prorogament from Corey Hogan. That's what we'll call it.
Carter: It's a prorogament from
Carter: Oh, that's really good. I'm going to just go write that down.
Zain: Would it be of or from? We'll
Zain: do both. We'll do prorogament of from Corey Hogan. That's good. He'll like that. He'll be really happy with that. He'll be excited. but
Carter: really happy with that. He'll be excited. but
Zain: but
Zain: you
Carter: you you call the election before the prorogation is over and
Carter: and we have an election sometime late
Carter: late april early may mid-may yeah
Zain: yeah yeah yeah right
Carter: right that's
Zain: that's where we land that's
Carter: that's where this unfolds and it doesn't matter if it's christia freeland mark
Carter: mark carly carney karina
Carter: karina gold um
Carter: um frank
Carter: frank bayliss you
Carter: you know
Carter: ruby dala whoever
Carter: gets there this
Carter: could happen it's
Zain: could
Zain: it's
Carter: it's
Zain: it's
Carter: it's gonna be
Zain: be ruby um
Carter: um
Zain: um
Carter: um
Zain: um ruby
Carter: ruby
Carter: ruby dollar is going to come in i
Carter: still i'm not i'm not let's lose the ruby dollar that's the big question oh
Zain: still i'm not i'm not let's
Zain: oh i'll talk about roll-ups in a second carter give me a bit um i'm
Zain: i'm not trying to be dense on purpose i still don't understand why you don't run against trump versus what you're saying
Carter: what you're saying
Carter: there's only one this is exactly this is exactly one tariff right now this
Zain: only one this is exactly
Zain: this is exactly one tariff right now this
Carter: is your plan on could be gone on march the 4th right march the 4th donald trump comes back and says i don't need to tax them i don't need to put a tariff on them because so there are great good good good
Zain: is your plan on could be
Zain: are great good good good okay good right he won't fucking say the great friends were uh but he's talking about 51st state over and over again um why not make it something adjacent to tariffs my plan against trump my plan against all like why not explicitly say this is my like we both agree on snap election why not because we say that i want to run a ballot box question against that guy
Carter: because we say
Carter: against trump yes
Carter: against the The threat that is annexation,
Zain: that is annexation, the threat that is whatever. Yeah, let's listen.
Carter: let's listen. Throw away
Carter: away the word tariff, and
Carter: and I'm with you. I
Carter: don't know where tariffs are going to be in 30 days. I
Zain: don't know where— You're not opposed to running against Trump.
Carter: I'm not opposed to running against Trump at all. We
Carter: We need someone who can stand up to this. Are you opposed to explicitly
Zain: need someone who can stand up to this. Are you opposed to explicitly saying that? Explicitly saying that? I
Carter: I would explicitly say it. How many days are federal elections? 36 days or something like that?
Zain: I thought it was 28, but you might be right. I'm nowhere near thinking about it. Oh, it's 36, I
Carter: near thinking about it. Oh, it's 36, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's 28 for provincial.
Zain: think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's 28 for
Carter: You're adding
Zain: You're adding another eight. Right. You're right. You're right. Yeah.
Carter: Yeah. So,
Carter: So, you
Carter: you know, 36
Carter: 36 days of standing up and saying this election is about who can deal with Donald Trump is
Carter: is probably, and saying it explicitly, is
Carter: is probably the wise way of going into this election.
Zain: Okay. I'm going to leave that there. Go to a slightly similar question, but that explores another angle of this, another strategic statement. So both Pierre Polyev and Mark Carney kind of gave their plans against Trump, against tariffs, and gave their rhetorical sort of plans, right? right? Less so concrete, here's what I'm going to do. Here's what the counter tariffs look like. Here's what's on none of that. But they both kind of gave their rhetoric. They said, here's what we're going to secure. Here's what we're going to do. Here's what's on the table. They both talked about in different ways. You know, we'd be open to feeling the maximum amount of pain, because this is what it takes to defend the country. We will never be a 51st state, right? Like similar on that vibe. It's not like there's divergence there.
Zain: Here's my strategic statement. If Trump Trump and tariffs in Canada and wrapping ourselves up in the flag, those three things, Trump, tariffs, Canada, wrapping ourselves up in the flag. If those become the
Zain: ballot box questions or a cocktail of the ballot box questions, tie
Zain: goes to the liberals, which
Zain: which means that if the rhetoric is the same, the tie on that goes
Zain: to the liberals. Do
Zain: you agree with that? Do you disagree with that? Optimize it for me.
Carter: Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting because I'm not sure that that would have been the case, obviously, a month and a half ago. I was talking with a colleague today, and we were talking about how, you know, a year ago, everybody
Zain: were talking about
Carter: wanted, you know, we thought it was too late for Trudeau to step down. And here we are, and it's turned out even to be a better scenario.
Carter: You
Carter: know, it goes straight into it. And
Carter: I do think that right
Carter: right now the tie is going to the Liberals because, first of all, we've talked about how efficient their vote is, how strong it can be when you take Atlantic Canada, Quebec and Ontario, and
Carter: and you just have to have a little bit of a lead in those three regions. regions and suddenly you've got a huge seat lead because
Carter: because the vote is so efficient in those three areas whereas the conservatives are so out of whack in manitoba saskatchewan and and and alberta and and frankly rural british columbia as well they're
Zain: saskatchewan
Carter: they're out of whack you know 65 70 in some writings 80 in some writings that distorts your vote total it distorts your um
Carter: um capacity to win So they're not able to win
Carter: win the majority government. I think
Carter: think that the tie has to go to the liberals in this case, Zane. I think that the efficiency of their vote, the maturity of their candidates, and the opportunity of brand change all are coming together at this one moment in time. And you called it Trump tariffs and the flag. I think there's something more structural to it.
Carter: It's brand structure and
Carter: it's all coming together for
Carter: for them at the right time. Even when Harper says we're
Carter: we're going to have to make the hurt for
Carter: for the country,
Carter: it's kind of like even
Carter: Stephen Harper agrees with the liberals. liberals
Carter: it's not stephen harper agrees with pierre poliev it's
Carter: it's structurally and brand wise coming together in
Carter: in this one moment in this one opportunity
Carter: opportunity i
Zain: i i love that you're answering this so by the way i i like that you're answering this about like vote efficiency my my intent with the question wasn't even about the electoral map but i love that you went there and gave me your breakdown on that but can i ask you the actual intent which is if the question is about trump Trump tariffs, wrapping yourself up in the flag. And the rhetoric is nearly identical, said different ways by two different people, Carney and Polyev, that the tie on that, if they say the same things, and it's about the same issues, liberals have the edge. That liberals ultimately, if those things are the questions, and their policies are nearly identical without much massive digestible divergence, that
Zain: the
Zain: liberals come out ahead. Well,
Carter: let's rephrase that. Let's take two brands. We'll call them brand A and brand B.
Carter: And the brand that is the most liked, the
Carter: the most likable, the most familiar will win.
Carter: And Pierre Polyev is familiar, but he's not liked. Right. So that brand. So
Carter: So so in a situation where everything changes, everybody goes back to their home ports now. And I'm talking this way as though the liberals are in first. They're still not in first. No,
Zain: No, but
Carter: but their their trajectory is on fucking believable. Right.
Carter: Right. What Eco saw two weeks ago. Now everybody's captured and all those numbers are running up. And I'm quite sure that we've still got some distance to go before we really see what the liberals' upper numbers really look like.
Zain: This next one is a bit clunky. But in it, I'm just trying to like – I'm
Zain: trying to inert something and see if you agree with it. And it's less of like a strategic statement that favors one side or the other. But let me – go for a walk with me on this, OK? OK. So the country wants change. That's the first part of the strategic statement. Pierre
Carter: OK. So the
Zain: was the change to incumbent Trudeau. And
Zain: now Carney is a change to a guy who's acted as the incumbent for the last two years in Pierre. And
Zain: that favors Carney.
Carter: That's
Zain: That's a bulk, it's a clunky statement. But it's like the country wants change. And we've actually put a guy in position that's gotten rid of the PM as the change candidate. in it. But he's been around for so long now, as like, almost nearly controlling the levers of change, that people now see the new guy as being changed the guy that they've already had two years of experience with, despite the fact he hasn't fucking controlled shit for two years. He's just expected to do so.
Zain: Do
Carter: Do
Zain: Do you agree with that statement? And do you agree, disagree, optimize? Let
Carter: agree, disagree, optimize?
Carter: Let me clean it up for you. We've been so disappointed. We've been so disappointed in the prime minister that
Carter: we've been looking to the prime minister and waiting pierre
Carter: pierre pauliev to
Carter: come and save us but
Carter: but we've had so long of waiting for the pierre for for pierre pauliev to come and save us that
Carter: that now when
Carter: when shit's real when being saved is real when being can it is broken is now a real threat because someone is going to come in and fucking break us with
Carter: with that now that that we're seeing that we're
Carter: we're going hey you know what that prime minister in waiting wasn't that great guy that
Carter: he now we're going to go on we had two
Zain: go on we
Zain: two
Carter: two years of him yeah
Zain: yeah he wasn't that do you feel like there's a group of canadians who felt like we've already had two years of him just because of that lead being so consistently maintained his presence being so uh on the present like he was running the media cycle and i'm not i'm not projecting a pure poly of loss here but i'm i I am trying to test out this dynamic in some ways to say, is this something that could be going on? That because Pierre was so good at what he did, that
Zain: he was so omniscient, he was so omnipresent everywhere, he was everywhere all the time, people feel like they've already gotten Pierre for a number of years. And now that they're – now in the weirdest twisted way, they might be looking for change from the guy that they haven't necessarily even put into office yet.
Carter: He's the most effective – how many times have we said on this podcast? cast. It's so funny. We had someone leave the Patreon because we were too hard on the conservatives. I'm like, we've
Carter: we've called Pierre Polyev the best communicator in politics. I don't know how many times. He is the best communicator. He was the best communicator in Canadian politics right up until about four weeks ago. And
Carter: then he became the second best communicator in Canadian politics. Well, I'll tell you something. The chasm between number one and number two has it's always big because
Carter: because people lift you up onto a pedestal when you're number one and they shit on you when you're number two and pierre paliev is for the first time experiencing being shit on and
Zain: sorry just to be clear you're thinking carney's
Zain: carney's taking over the pole position here well
Carter: absolutely i
Carter: i mean carney is is the one i think i'm saying sure like
Zain: sure like yeah i agree like and and you know and i know you're you're helping the guy and and i don't know if people know this but but I know Mark. But Carter, by circumstance, right? Like in this rare sort of moment where the country might be looking for an adult in the room and someone who brings their blood pressure down due to perhaps his lack of lifting off the stage or his words or his presence, that sheer sort of like unique moment triangulation is why you're putting Carney in first. I don't know if I'd go that far. I still think I'd give it to Pierre, right? And I think there's many who watched just that Canada first rally over the weekend and got what they needed from him as it relates to solidifying their vote and saying, yeah, he's still all about Team Canada. So I'm not sure I go that far, but I just want to try to get a sense of why you're suggesting Carney's taking the poll position here.
Carter: Well, I just think that Carney is the one who's got the media presence, controlling the message structure, forcing
Carter: forcing Pierre Polyev to change his messaging,
Carter: the same way that Pierre Polyev was doing all of that to Justin and more to Justin Trudeau, right?
Carter: right? You can tell who's in first by who's setting the agenda. And right now, Mark Carney is setting the agenda. Tell
Carter: me
Zain: me
Carter: me how
Zain: how long.
Carter: long. I like
Zain: like that.
Carter: that.
Zain: that.
Zain: No, I don't. I mean, I won't disagree with you on that. I think there's something to be said there. I just think there's a very interesting dynamic. Here's the question. Would you be, as a Carney campaign,
Zain: leaning in as a change candidate, or is that too cute?
Zain: Is that too cute to call yourself change? Because it would almost have to accept the assumption that I'm putting in, the strategic assumption I'm putting out on the table, which is that people are tired of the guy who never got the job but was so good at communicating the fact that he's around and he wants the job would you is it too cute for the carding campaign to communicate that they are change at this moment yeah
Carter: yeah it's it's not the right message the right message he's not change he's
Carter: he's not change he's competence right
Carter: and you can argue the competence is the bigger change right
Carter: he's competent right
Zain: he's competent right
Carter: right oh
Carter: oh he's competent that's
Carter: that's a a pretty good change and it's a change away from both the existing prime minister and
Carter: and the prime minister in waiting that we've had for the last two years you
Zain: got some energy to do a couple more oh
Carter: yeah i mean you started early because we didn't have to wait for uh cory's kids to go to bed this is well i mean fantastic this
Zain: well i mean fantastic
Zain: this is probably five episodes worth of content we should probably price this at what what it was what is a patreon member we should probably price this episode at a hundred dollars even if it's public yeah
Carter: yeah well the patrons are stupid they'll
Zain: they'll pay they're really really dumb yeah
Carter: they'll pay
Carter: they're
Carter: yeah it's like they can get half like they're paying six dollars for sometimes twice as much content did
Carter: did they even complain that we didn't record on thursday i don't
Zain: did they even complain
Zain: don't know do i do i even care do we that's the other thing no yeah i know i don't i don't know um
Carter: don't know do
Carter: we that's the other thing no yeah i know i
Carter: don't know
Carter: um
Zain: um jagmeet
Zain: singh should make a deal with mark carney and or whoever wins the liberal leadership to try to extend this election as long as he can agree
Zain: disagree you
Zain: you have to you have to play the jagmeet role here right you're You're probably reading the same polls that most of us will be reading soon from a national perspective, saying that he's not gaining, he's losing, and he's losing to the liberals, and time is what he probably needs. So, ergo, make a deal, try to extend this.
Carter: reading the same polls
Zain: That's what he needs to do. Agree, disagree, optimize it for me.
Carter: I mean, the problem is that there is no one
Carter: to do a deal with. the
Carter: the liberals aren't going to accept a deal from uh
Carter: jagmeet singh not when they're up and this and the and the ndp are down not when there's another yet another opportunity to
Carter: to steal ndp votes and and put them into the liberal into
Carter: into the liberal slot but you know lend us your votes one more time and so we can defeat pierre poliev and the giant evil that is uh the conservative party of of canada how many times have the liberals played that fucking card how successful have they been and they get to do it one more time they get to do it one more time oh my god this is amazing for the liberals there's not there's no deal to be made now if you're jugmeet singh instead
Carter: of trying to solidify and build your party from the ground up which is what he should have been doing for how long has he been leader saying how
Carter: long has he been leader uh
Zain: uh since the 2019 election i believe So
Carter: since the
Carter: believe So this is going to be his third election. And he hasn't built the party from the ground up.
Carter: He's trying to find some magic way, magical thinking that's going to create a party that has structure and strength. But what he doesn't seem to realize is that every time, you know, every time he tries to create that magical thinking, he drives people either to the conservatives or to the liberals, because he's not doing the work, the work that an Ed Broadbent did, the work that even Mulcair did. did um you know the these were leaders that put their back into it and built from the grassroots up and instead we're seeing jagmeet singh try and build some sort of uh magical enterprise that uh
Carter: uh is failing and no one is going to do a deal with him no
Carter: no one but
Zain: should he try sure
Carter: i
Carter: mean i'm gonna i'm gonna try all kinds of shit i'm gonna why not give it a whirl i'm
Carter: gonna try acting like i'm 22 years old why
Carter: why not let
Zain: me throw another one out there can
Zain: we go to ontario for a second i'd
Zain: love it
Zain: merit styles and bonnie crombie should
Zain: should make a deal should make a deal to
Zain: stop duck ford somehow some way why
Carter: why you're
Carter: bonnie crombie you're the only one going up everybody
Carter: everybody else is going down bonnie crombie is what 14 points back right now with enough time to form the official opposition she may not be the the
Carter: the premier but
Carter: she has the capacity when everybody thought she was was dead. Everybody
Carter: Everybody thought she was gone.
Carter: She has the capacity to do, frankly, what the liberals always do. They can just steal the NDP vote.
Carter: There is no reason to do a deal. Instead, talk about stopping Doug Ford. That's how you do your deal. So Bonnie Crombie doesn't need to do any deal. And the NDP, my God, could they look worse across the nation? I mean, David Eby barely
Carter: held on. And
Carter: now they're just getting – Wab Kanu. Thank God Wab Kanu is there.
Carter: He's the only one who's making any difference in NDP politics across the entire nation.
Zain: Oh, I disagree with that. I think EB is doing extremely well, especially in the last number. Oh, you haven't seen
Carter: number. Oh, you haven't seen his budget yet.
Zain: not seen his budget, but his development – Speech from the Thrones is
Carter: development – Speech from the Thrones is coming tomorrow, my friend.
Zain: Tell me this.
Zain: Can we stick with Ontario for a second? Because that one was quick, and I agree with where you went with there, personally.
Zain: That was quick because it was so easy.
Carter: it was so easy.
Zain: There is so easy
Carter: There is so easy for me. So
Zain: So this is in line with the Trump conversation and like, you know, the particular sort of
Zain: line of attack of showing not telling that's available on Trump for the liberals against Polyev. I want to try to port that to provincial politics. And
Zain: the statement is there's more meat on the bone to attack Ford on his comments that he supported Trump that he supported and wanted Trump to win. win.
Zain: If you remember, this is a piece of audio that came out that said, of course, I wanted the guy to win, or of course, I supported the guy. My statement is there's more meat on the bone there than
Zain: Crombie or Stiles may realize as they try to pivot to healthcare, trying to make it about a more domestic election. Agree, disagree, optimize it.
Carter: Yeah, I mean, politics is about understanding who you're up against. Politics is about being able to read the room.
Carter: Politics is about making the right decision under difficult circumstances, and Doug Ford can't.
Carter: Doug Ford saw the same information that we saw, saw that Donald Trump was a lunatic, and his behavior was to nonetheless expect Donald Trump to win, to hope that Donald Trump would win. Even though it was going to be worse for Canada, Donald Trump was saying it was going to be worse for Canada.
Carter: It's
Carter: not that Doug Doug Ford is Donald Trump.
Carter: He's just not right.
Zain: Because that is
Carter: is
Zain: is not
Carter: is not that
Zain: that lazy sort of like line of comparison is not it. Liberals have a spot out there where they're using audio and clips where that kind of, you know, the fourth statement comes up. And they're not, I think they've done it craftily, like they've done it like with nice craft, like they've kind of said, you know, this is who he wanted. And this is what he suggested sort of thing. And it kind of undercuts a core notion of why we're having this election to begin with. it's
Carter: it's not that Doug Ford is Donald Trump it's that Doug Ford didn't recognize the dangers of Donald Trump right
Carter: right
Zain: right
Carter: oh and someone should write that down that was good that's
Zain: that's not bad Carter we can't do this when Corey's around you
Carter: we can't
Carter: around you get into the 52nd minute and you're doing pretty good if Corey's
Zain: if Corey's around he was just caught up in so many things we've probably done four episodes worth I said five a moment ago I mean
Carter: mean you were exaggerating you're using hyperbole
Carter: hyperbole
Zain: hyperbole that's right Right. What is this episode called? The Prorogman of the Corey Hogan. I
Carter: the Corey
Carter: I don't know if you've noticed that Corey is not so sick to not text us. Yeah,
Zain: Yeah, he's texting us during this thing. He wants the title to be
Carter: He wants the title to be H for Hogan, who is not here.
Zain: No, that's definitely not what it is.
Carter: it is. That's definitely not what we're going to do. We finally get to name an episode, Zane. We're not going to follow his fucking lead.
Zain: No, we're definitely not. Where do I want to go? I talked to you about Jagmeet Singh. I asked you about Axe Attacks. Tie
Zain: goes to the Liberals. We talked about Carney. Feels
Carter: like we're done, Zane. Feels like we're done. Can I throw one? I can
Zain: can
Zain: can get into all of Alberta, but maybe we do that when Corey's here next. So let me keep it federal outside of the two Ontario questions.
Zain: Gould should present
Zain: like she's in second place in this leadership race.
Zain: She's been kind of seen as the third place, the also-ran. Of course, behind her are the true also-rans, so I don't mean to, you
Zain: you know. You know what I mean, right? She's looked at it like, ah, it should be great for the future. But it's a two-horse race, and it's increasingly a one-horse race. Karina Gould should
Zain: really position herself as second place.
Zain: And Carter, this may speak to your broader how you think of roll-up, how you think of positioning. This is one of the things I know you love talking about. So there's my statement for you about
Zain: Gould presenting
Zain: presenting like she's in second place. Agree, disagree, optimize it for me. And
Zain: And
Zain: And we'll end on this note. I
Carter: we'll end on this note.
Carter: I seem to recall one time working on Tony Clement's campaign when
Carter: he was running for the leader of the now Conservative Party of Canada. And I remember spinning that he was in second place and then he came in third. But
Carter: I
Carter: don't see a problem with trying to with that type of spin. I mean, the distance between her and Chrystia Freeland doesn't feel like that much. and i know karina was here in uh in calgary tonight um we didn't go because it's minus 400 outside i hope she got a decent crowd but uh you
Carter: you know i think that there's nothing wrong with her spinning that she's in second place and it's entirely believable um even if it's not probable should
Zain: she um the second part of this question should she be courting any of her fellow fellow competitors in the top three to try to endorse her? Or anyone else in the race to try to endorse her? Like, I'm not talking about endorsements from Camden, I'm talking about, like, drop out and endorse me. Is that something that moves the needle for her, strategically?
Carter: strategically?
Carter: Unless Chrystia Freeland dropped out, there is no one to ask.
Carter: I mean, you know, Ruby Dalla dropping out and endorsing you is Craig Chandler, you
Carter: you know, endorsing Jim Prentice in 20 in 2004 um
Zain: Jim Prentice
Carter: um it's just just
Carter: painful frank
Carter: frank bayless drops out and endorses you what do you get uh you
Carter: you know another 1400 donation like it's just it
Carter: it it doesn't it
Carter: it doesn't make sense karina
Carter: karina needs to run like she's in second place and
Carter: and who knows in three weeks time maybe she is carter
Zain: we've done it we've
Zain: we've we've we've recorded the episode of all episodes we've done with that cory hogan i feel can i
Carter: feel can i
Zain: i check in can i check in how do you feel about that i
Carter: feel pretty good i don't feel great about posting this i
Carter: i feel like there's a 50 percent oh you don't know how
Zain: like there's a 50
Zain: oh you don't know how to post this oh that's fine we don't do it for the for
Zain: the people well
Carter: well who cares
Zain: cares about
Carter: about
Zain: about that that's
Zain: mostly they're irrelevant mostly just us that's also another good episode title mostly just us because it also it's on multiple levels because the normal show is mostly just us i think
Zain: i want want to go with mostly just us okay
Carter: okay well good news i wanted you to write i want you to write the uh this mostly just us mostly
Zain: i wanted you to write i
Zain: i want you to write
Zain: mostly just us mostly just us the the the prorogament of the cory hogan no
Carter: we can't make it that long why can't we make it that long there's
Carter: rules don't
Zain: think there's rules we'll
Carter: we'll make
Zain: make it happen and
Carter: and
Zain: and with that we'll leave it there that's a wrap on episode 1848 h of the strategist my name is zane velge with me as always stephen carter not with me cory hogan and we shall see you next time