Corey: Okay, you ready?
Carter: No, I don't remember. I don't remember how we start these ones.
Corey: Um, well, it is a complex dance of you saying things and then...
Corey: Welcome to The Strategist, episode 1848G. My name is Corey Hogan. You
Carter: You know what? We should have done a recording like we do with the You the People ones, where we write a little script.
Corey: little script.
Corey: Your name is Stephen Carr.
Corey: Not with us tonight is Zainer Annalise. Two hosts.
Corey: Two hosts. Useless. And yet no hosts. Useless.
Carter: Useless.
Corey: Yeah. Strange, that one, huh? Standard Carter
Carter: Carter and Hogan. So
Corey: So
Corey: how are you doing? It's good to see you in another hotel. I'm
Corey: I'm in another hotel. This
Carter: I'm in another hotel. This is back to back, you and me, by the way. I know.
Corey: I know. Yeah. This
Carter: This is starting to turn into a trend.
Corey: Only the people who spend $6 know that, though, right? That's right.
Carter: That's right. That's right. We gave them their episode.
Corey: We gave them
Corey: You know, in our defense, we knew that Zane was a flake. And we did ask the liberal leadership contenders to come and host this podcast. And they
Carter: they didn't.
Corey: didn't. I didn't
Carter: I didn't understand that none of them. I mean, Frank Bayless is getting no media at all. One would think that this has to count as some media. He could
Corey: count as some media. He could have had the strategist bump.
Corey: Didn't do it.
Carter: Yeah. Do you remember that time we did the liberal strategy and then they won?
Corey: Actually, that was a really good episode. Yeah. We often, we're
Corey: not shy about pumping our own tires. But I think that might have been. know we actually like we commissioned polling for that do you remember i know i know we had private polling yeah that told us a bit this
Carter: know we had private
Carter: this is before we had people to pay us i
Corey: know that was just that was the unlimited joke budget that was just my money you know just is that your budget money that paid i don't know it might have been yours i'm not sure i paid
Carter: i paid for one of the uh one of the live shows one time that
Carter: that that i remember you
Corey: you did you bankrolled a live show yeah that was nice of you that was back when we didn't think we'd
Carter: yeah that was
Carter: that was back when we didn't think we'd draw an audience yeah
Corey: yeah well we
Carter: we were we
Corey: we
Corey: we were We're kind of, we were young. We were naive. Like our third episode was a live show. So we
Corey: we had that going. Man,
Carter: Man, we were arrogant then.
Corey: Oh, man. Times were different. I wish we could go back
Carter: Times were different. I wish we could go back to those days.
Corey: We can, bud. Don't worry. We can live into now. Hey, so no Zane. Perfect opportunity to talk about not heading to Natchi, but also maybe just Alberta in general. You want to talk about Alberta? I
Carter: I don't know. What's going on? A
Corey: few things in Alberta. You're not even in Alberta right now. I'm
Carter: right now. I'm not even in Alberta. I'm in British Columbia right now. Sitting in another hotel room.
Corey: Sitting
Carter: doing video for
Carter: for the masses with no light we're
Corey: we're yeah
Corey: yeah we can see that yeah we can half see that yeah
Carter: yeah we
Carter: yeah well i feel bad okay
Corey: so a few things have been going on in alberta but i think the one that we need to anchor this conversation around because we've well
Corey: well we've talked a lot about danielle smith and her approach to to u.s politics maybe we'll get there maybe
Corey: we won't maybe we will maybe
Carter: will maybe we won't we're not making any promises to these people
Corey: we're not making any promises
Corey: absolutely these people don't
Carter: these people don't pay us fuck all promises
Corey: promises are for people who give us six dollars a month that's exactly right yeah
Carter: that's exactly right
Carter: yeah i
Corey: want to skip past that right now though and go to what is i think maybe one of the bigger stories in alberta politics at least because of its potential you know we live in a world where people tend to throw around rhetoric like this could bring down a government you know the divine analogy this is a government in saskatchewan where they basically all went to jail like these things get thrown thrown around and most of the time you just kind of roll your eyes and you know do one of those jerk off motions if you're steven i hate
Carter: i hate i hate i
Corey: hate i
Carter: i hate i
Carter: i hate yeah
Carter: yeah
Corey: yeah i hate the the
Carter: i hate the the everybody calling for everybody's resignation all the time yeah i know
Corey: time yeah i know makes me crazy
Carter: makes me crazy you
Corey: you hate it i hate it you hate the heated rhetoric of like this is it this is like this is the end of the government they
Carter: hate it
Carter: it this is like this is the end of the government they are completely without uh without any morality i
Corey: completely without
Carter: i hate that because
Corey: because usually it's not the end of the government no right but why don't we get to the actual issue here or at least throw it on the table why don't i
Carter: i do this hang on hey
Carter: hey
Corey: hey cory
Carter: cory will you set that up for us that's
Carter: his angelism well
Corey: well
Corey: look i mean the the basic allegation the summary of it is this it is that the government of alberta uh has been directing money towards people who have been doing favors for the government of alberta i i think i can summarize it as simple as that and the value of me a favor buddy
Carter: value of me a favor buddy and And make sure we don't get sued, okay?
Corey: sure we don't get sued,
Carter: Oh, that's a good idea. So that's
Corey: that's a good idea. So that's
Carter: that's
Corey: that's
Corey: that's the allegation. Okay, thank you.
Corey: And this allegation is in many ways unspooled in a letter from former CEO of Alberta Health Services, Athana Metzlopoulos, who is a former colleague of mine, right? Worked with her at the government of Alberta.
Corey: And many former colleagues of mine are involved in this story in some way, shape, or form. So I don't know if I want to get into the specific details here, right?
Carter: That's good. we're not detail people that's
Corey: that's you know it's actually great cover it's great cover for not knowing any of the details the
Carter: know
Carter: know it's
Carter: it's actually great
Carter: for not knowing any of the details the detail guys no that's right no this
Corey: that's right no
Carter: this is the strategists it's
Corey: about half a billion dollars though it's suggested in contracts for private surgeries right being directed towards people who have shown favor to the government and in fact it is a business leader leader who is
Corey: is tied to the Turkish Tylenol mini scandal here in Alberta that's at the center of it. Yeah,
Carter: Yeah, I mean, maybe... Not a mini scandal, a legitimate scandal, $75 million for a product that was really never received and never used.
Corey: Well, look, we can get into the definition of scandal. I mean, I think it's a bit of an outrage that the cost per dose was so expensive and we ordered more doses than we could possibly need as a province. And we ordered it in a way that it wouldn't come until after we needed it all of that i believe i mean we actually covered that in real time on this podcast this wasn't even like after the fact saying how crazy this was yeah
SPEAKER_01: province.
Carter: on this podcast
Carter: yeah we
Corey: we said it at the time but
Corey: but there was never the suggestion at the time that money was like flowing in ways that were improper i guess that's what i'm trying to say when i say mini scandal well
Carter: well there's no time yeah
Corey: yeah now
Corey: there's a suggestion or at least there's the the insinuation out there that uh that money is flowing in ways that are improper because this you know the heart of it is this skybox where um you know you could watch hockey games from that the you know people are invited to and all that i don't really want to get into like the very specific things mostly because the premier has already threatened to sue people yeah you were alluding to that um
Carter: yeah you were
Carter: um premier smith if you're listening uh our good friend carrie tate is who you're supposed to sue not not cory and i cory and i are approaching this in fact as though premier smith is innocent uh mostly to avoid litigation well
Corey: mostly to avoid litigation
Corey: well look i actually think that's a pretty good frame because like we only know what we know we only see what's in the media here but the long story short is all of these allegations are floating around other conversations around the side as to what this might potentially mean but after many days of silence where even the usually reliable um boosters
Corey: boosters
Corey: shall we say at post media were giving uh the gears to the premier and saying what is this what does this mean and you're right kerry tape broke the story in the globe and mail credit where credit's due um the premier released a statement on twitter on x on saturday and
Corey: it was an interesting statement i mean i i've i've
Corey: not read statements like this in a while how
Corey: can i say this like we
Corey: we were talking a little bit about this before here again
Corey: we're
Corey: working from the frame premier innocent does
Corey: not actually inspire a lot of confidence that that is the case right like some of the word choices are crazy and so this is sort of what i'm hey cory yeah
Corey: yeah don't
Carter: don't get us sued i
Corey: i
Corey: know i know i'm trying to walk a line brother
Carter: line brother walk the line but i gotta
Corey: gotta say like teach you how to do it yeah you know so the line the line in it maybe i'll maybe i'll just very quickly read you know it's not long enough that I can't read it. So let me read it. I'll skip over some. Show
Carter: say like teach
Carter: me read it. I'll skip
Carter: Show us your reading proficiency. Yeah.
Corey: Yeah. I have read various media stories containing allegations regarding the procurement and contracting processes of AHS. That's Alberta Health Services. They are troubling allegations and they should be reviewed as quickly as possible. To that end, I will be writing the Auditor General, Doug Wiley, to ask for an expedited review and his
Corey: findings on the issue. I have also directed my officials to ensure that any request for information from Mr. Wiley or his office, is dealt with on a fully transparent and expedited basis. We need to get to the bottom of this issue quickly to identify any potential wrongdoing, correct it, address it appropriately. Okay, so far so good, right? Here's where it starts to get a little bit stranger, right? I have also asked that AHS's internal reviews be completed as quickly as possible and delivered directly to me so we can study the results and make improvements or adjustments to these processes. Until these findings are delivered, AHS has paused
Corey: the contracting of surgical facilities under review.
Corey: And here's where it gets strangest still. As premier, I was not involved in any wrongdoing. Any insinuation to the contrary is false, baseless, and defamatory. It then goes on to say basically, hey, I like trying to change AHS and deliver quality, timely health care. That's my goal. I'm not going to bother going into that last paragraph. That's, in my opinion, boilerplate. But two things, which I kind of paused on, but let's really call them out. yeah one is this is really serious so i've asked for the review to come directly to me yeah
Carter: but let's really call
Carter: so i've
Carter: yeah right
Corey: right i gotta see it first gotta
Corey: gotta see this review gotta see this review send it to me send me
Carter: see this review gotta
Carter: this review send
Carter: send me an index so i can see where my name is mentioned yeah
Corey: yeah exactly and
Corey: and the other is as premier i was not involved in any wrongdoing you know it doesn't say there was no wrongdoing it doesn't say even i was unaware aware of any wrongdoing it's i was not involved in any wrongdoing and
Carter: it doesn't
Corey: and then any insinuation i mean this is like especially for a public figure knowing where the bar is on this oh man
Carter: oh man yeah can you any insinuation
Corey: yeah can you any insinuation is false
Corey: false baseless and defamatory how how is
Carter: how how is she going to sue so i mean thank
Carter: god we're taking the position that she's innocent because she's going to sue everybody if if uh if she's worried about the defamatory statements that have been made so far because Because this is one of those scandals that
Carter: money is not going in the direction that it's supposed to go and being directed to spend money by the government of Alberta to AHS. chess i mean
Corey: mean well and
Corey: and the suggestion is that her chief of staff at the time was at the heart of it right which which not had nancy and the alberta ndp when they were going against this you know railing against this said effectively either
Carter: right which
Corey: either she
Corey: she knew and that's a very bad thing or she didn't and that's a certain level of incompetence i'm paraphrasing nancy at this point right yeah but you know the
Corey: insinuation thing is pretty wild too like that's an interesting bar that's an an interesting interpretation but okay so that's all on the table now right let's
Corey: talk strategy oh
Corey: oh strategy okay
Corey: okay first
Corey: first thing i have my thoughts i want to get yours first how
Corey: how does a statement like this get written oh
Corey: you go and i'll go i had going and i go i
Carter: go and i'll go i had going and i go i had so many scandals i
Carter: i had so many um
Corey: so many um you were at least a few scandals well we
Carter: well we know in fairness i was not the biggest ones i
Carter: mean if you recall we had the no meat committee do
Carter: do you remember do you remember the The no-meet committee. The no-meet committee, for those just joining us, was
Corey: remember do you remember the The no-meet committee. The no-meet
SPEAKER_01: -meet
SPEAKER_01: us,
Corey: us, was
Carter: was in 2011, 2010, when
Corey: when
Carter: when
Carter: when a committee for the elections, I believe, was supposed to meet every month and every MLA would get a $1,000 stipend for attending those meetings. Unfortunately, the meetings never occurred.
Carter: Fortunately, the
Corey: Fortunately, the
SPEAKER_01: the
Carter: the money did. Everybody
Carter: Everybody
Corey: Everybody got paid. Everybody
Carter: Everybody got
Carter: Everybody got paid, baby. Maybe, but
Corey: but maybe
Corey: not the scandal it sounds like because everybody got the same number of committee appointments, right? So people were paid based on committee assignments, but the reality was everybody just got paid. It
Carter: everybody just got paid. It was just a top-up on pay.
Corey: a top
Corey: top
Carter: Nonetheless, we did have to write a similar type of statement that said, you know, and
Corey: Nonetheless, we
Carter: and we had to give all the money back. We said we were going to give back all the money and that was, you know, that was our way out of it. But the point is everybody's hands on deck when you're writing that statement, you're writing that statement with the input of lawyers, you're writing that statement with the input of of the government. You're making sure that everybody's covered off so that you're not sounding like you have committed a fraud, because if
Carter: if you sound like you've committed a fraud, I'll tell you something. The next call is to the police. Right.
Carter: Right. Yeah. And the police come in and they knock on your door. We didn't commit a fraud.
Corey: Yeah.
Carter: We just took some money that we weren't entitled to. That was important. Maybe the phrasing on that was a little off. The phrasing,
Corey: little off. The phrasing, that was not great. But I think
Carter: think
Corey: think
Carter: think
Corey: think you know what I mean.
Carter: mean.
Corey: I do know what you mean. And it was interesting because on that no-meet committee, MLAs from all parties were caught up in it. Like, Raj Sherman and David Swan were both on it for the Liberals. They both wrote checks back as a result. But, you know, like realistically, it was just part of their MLA salary. Like it was just structured in such a way that committee meetings were a separate line item. But it
SPEAKER_01: it was a big thing. It was a huge thing in Alberta. It became a
Corey: thing in Alberta. It became a scandal. It really is the moment where Alison Redford went from will she get 87 out of 87 seats to will she win this election, which I mean, both you and I remember very well.
Corey: We were running different campaigns. It was
Carter: campaigns. It was polling so badly that when we presented the polling findings to caucus, they said it was a push poll.
Corey: Caucus is, you know, kings of denial, in
Carter: in my experience.
Corey: in my experience. Well, it was
Carter: Well, it was an IVR, so I think they meant IVR, and they just thought it was a push button. Yeah.
Corey: Yeah. And
Carter: And they don't know what a push poll is. I
Corey: I mean, that's really impossible. I mean, your profession is
Carter: that's really impossible. I mean, your profession is politics. Why would you know that?
Corey: Okay. Can you say something really interesting? Because you talked about, like, lawyers and communicators in the room. Can I say, in my experience, in government and in politics, which is, you know, not insignificant, you know, I've been here for a few of those statements myself, there is a difference between a statement written by communicators run by lawyers and a statement written by lawyers run by communicators. But also, if
Carter: and
SPEAKER_01: and
Carter: and a
SPEAKER_01: a
Corey: it's not that serious, it tends to be the communicators take first pen. And when it's deathly serious, the lawyers take the first pen.
Corey: This feels to me like a lawyer's run by communicator statement, not communicator's run by lawyers. Absolutely. The lawyer wrote this first and made
Carter: not communicator's run by lawyers. Absolutely. The lawyer wrote this first and made sure that the deniability was in there. We wouldn't have put that in.
Corey: made sure that
Carter: We wouldn't have put that in because it implies a certain amount of guilt. Absolutely. I mean, especially when you parse the statement and you kind of go, hang on for a second here. It doesn't say she didn't know. It doesn't say, like, we wouldn't have put it in. it
Corey: Absolutely. I mean,
Carter: um we would have allowed
Corey: allowed people
Carter: people to to reach the conclusion by
Carter: by writing something else right um one of the things that's missing is we don't have a scapegoat you
Carter: know a good political communicator would be pointing a finger somewhere else so fast your fucking head would spin
Carter: you
Carter: know yeah
Corey: yeah i think i think it would be pretty easy to say we all know ahs has been pretty chaotic and we all know that there's been troubles along there but a lawyer is going to say you
Corey: you have your you fucking mind you can't you can't
Carter: have your you fucking
Carter: you can't point the you can't point the finger at the hs and its problems we're
Corey: the finger
Corey: problems we're already in a situation where people are sending letters through lawyers like this was a leak of a letter that athena sent basically
Corey: with 44 pages alleging these things right oh absolutely you know as part of a dispute over her being terminated by hs so well
Carter: well and that's just it too like why terminator like why why
Carter: are you taking these types of actions in order to like if you're trying to protect yourself you're doing the opposite of protecting yourself i
Corey: the opposite
Corey: i mean this is is the other challenge with it all and we we really breezed past it but apparently some of this was known a little bit earlier these concerns were brought by uh the ceo of alberta health athena metzalopoulos um to
Corey: the board the board was poised to vote on it the board was let go she was let go i i mean there
Corey: there are i'll just say from inside government sometimes these things happen because you're like oh my lord this person's off their rocker now that's not been been my experience with a thana just to be clear but like sometimes them doing these things is the thing that makes you say okay they gotta go right but like the combination of both her and the board it's
Carter: right but
Corey: a little weird well
Carter: well
Corey: well you
Carter: you ever go fishing with dynamite uh
Corey: no no no no i mean does anyone do that it's pretty crazy thing to do it
Carter: it is a pretty crazy thing to do but this is the political equivalent of going fishing with dynamite everybody
Carter: everybody who's touching this that's not guilty is getting hit it with the dynamite yeah
SPEAKER_01: right
Carter: right everybody else is is trying to like they
Carter: didn't come up with any scapegoats they didn't push any any like the the this just doesn't make any sense from a political point of view i'm completely flummoxed by it i'm also completely flummoxed by the apparent lack of ethics um which uh has has to govern and govern you know government requires requires ethics and uh you know the old wild rose used to rail against it right yeah and
Corey: yeah and
Carter: and the wild rose crazies are now in charge and now they think they get to rob the piggy bank can
Corey: can i just say like can i just paint a picture of this not being the government's malfeasance can i just can we throw that out there just so i can oh get it on the record sure
Carter: sure what
Carter: what and when we're doing it is the color of the sky pink all
Corey: and when
Corey: right so obviously there were procurement challenges maybe they They were isolated to one person. In terms of the board and the CEO, maybe the government had soured on the CEO. Maybe things were awkward. Maybe at that point, the CEO starts trying to create almost a reason like, look at this.
Corey: This happens in jobs. I'm certainly not saying it happened here. OK, just want to be crystal clear on this. But then they say, oh, she's got to go. And so many people will know that Andre Tremblay is the Deputy Minister of Alberta Health, is the Administrator of Alberta Health Services having replaced the board, and the Interim CEO of Alberta Health Services. Do you
SPEAKER_01: certainly not
Carter: you think he gets all three checks? It's
Corey: It's like Pokemon. He's going to catch them all, right? I know Andre pretty well. I've worked with him for a long time. Pretty competent guy, I just have to say. But you could easily imagine where they say, oh, geez, well, she's got to go. Oh, so we will just replace her. And actually, Andre, we wouldn't mind you being the administrator, too. Now, that's where it's a bit of a jump, like why. But the minute you do that, half the board of AHS is deputy ministers, like colleagues of Andre. Yeah. Andre. So at that point, do you not just say, well, that's an awkward situation. So we'd have to let half the board go anyways. So why don't we just make Andre in charge? You know,
Carter: Yeah. Andre.
Corey: charitable read.
Corey: But that's my charitable read right now. So
Carter: So if
Corey: if that's what happened, and that's how we ended up here, is that so crazy? Yes,
Carter: Yes, it is crazy.
Carter: It is nuts. It is not the way that things should go. Yeah, it's weird,
Corey: go. Yeah, it's weird, for sure. Because,
Carter: sure. Because, you
Carter: know, souring
Carter: souring on the CEO is one thing. Souring on the board is another thing. I've
Corey: I've
Carter: I've seen both of those things happen. And you know what? Ginning up a reason to hold on to your job is a skill I never acquired.
Corey: And
SPEAKER_01: And
Corey: Yeah, that's a real failing of yours. Yeah, it's a failing of mine
Carter: yours. Yeah, it's a failing of mine particularly.
Carter: But,
Carter: you know, I mean, this
Carter: doesn't strike me as something that's ginned up to hold on to a job. This strikes me as something that is legitimate and real. And when you put everything else into that filter, then the legitimacy and the realness of this takes apart, takes away from the capacity to say, you know, this is something that could have happened through non.
Corey: so let's just clean up what you said. like when you say legitimate real we don't know what it is but like we're saying there's smoke it's strange it's certainly not proper in terms of process and procedure even if it's not illegal that's what you mean at this case right because we don't know enough to make the broader claim i
Carter: i see the litigious claim and blue lights i see red and blue lights in the future here don't
Corey: i see the litigious claim and
Carter: don't you no
Corey: no jesus christ just stop just stop you
Carter: just
Carter: just stop
Carter: you
Corey: you
Carter: you don't see
Corey: see that like
Carter: see that like
Carter: it's all serious we just don't know no i don't you're gonna you're you're so afraid of getting sued i've been serious it's not that hard it's
Corey: it's all serious we just don't know no i don't you're gonna
SPEAKER_01: serious
Corey: serious it's
SPEAKER_01: it's
Carter: it's not that hard we're
Corey: not we're not doing that um okay
Corey: so back to the situation like we're going to continue with our frame of like what should the government have done so we talked a little bit about it we deconstructed we talked about statement written by communicators run by lawyers versus statement written by lawyers run by communicators anything else you want to say on that before you want to say what this should have been well
Carter: i i think
Carter: the question is really predicated on whether or not the premier feels she's innocent which
Carter: we have stipulated as part of this program as part of this program you know for the purposes of this program she's completely innocent in which case um she needs to do more than just a simple uh tweet uh demanding that a report be laid upon her desk and that the auditor general get involved if the uh if
Corey: program
SPEAKER_01: if the
Carter: there is no merit to the complaint uh then there's no problem calling the police right why wouldn't you call the place. Call the fire down on your own hole, right? Like, let's go. Let's make sure that this thing is absolutely 100% clear. And it's not like they can be expected to actually finish the investigation before your next election anyways. There's only two and a half years. I'm
Carter: anticipating that it's going to take at least, what, three, four years to get through this based on the current speed and progress of the RCMP on other investigations that are political in nature. This feels like Like it's you know, if if if if the premier honestly didn't know what's going on, then she should be absolutely furious that one of her staff put
Carter: put her in a position where she could go down for it.
Corey: Well, again, allegedly a
Carter: again, allegedly a
Carter: a staffer's job is to protect the principal. And
Carter: this is the exact opposite of protecting the principal.
Corey: the exact
Carter: Allegedly.
Carter: Allegedly.
Corey: So allegedly,
Carter: allegedly, I
Corey: mean, I think that you've you've unspooled a lot. That's true there. Right. right? I'm not so convinced I would call in the RCMP. I'm not really sure I want to create the precedent that whenever I'm accused of something, I'm calling in the RCMP. You've
Carter: RCMP. You've been accused of things for the last 18 months. For the last two years, you've been accused of things. This is not new to be accused of things. Being accused of something that has this type of connotation is new. It
Corey: been accused
Corey: new. It
Carter: is
Carter: beyond the pale. A half billion dollars worth of expenditures. One fifth of which, or 75 million of which, every
Corey: beyond the
Carter: every Albertan knows was lunacy.
Carter: This is the
Carter: Tylenol, the children's Tylenol. It was absolute lunacy. And now you put it all together and you tied it together with the red string, and it's not really that much red string.
Corey: string.
Corey: Well, can I say, this is actually what I think is one of the challenges that danielle smith has is let's just say if let's just say something happened it doesn't even need to be like the biggest things that are claimed right with her staff and all of that if
Corey: if this becomes a thing if there are red and blue lights at any point even if she was a hundred miles away from this particular situation the challenge she has between the hockey tickets and the turkish tylenol is that people are just gonna they're gonna do the red string thing and they're gonna going to say well like look at all of these connections here like it's just it's way you know it is character it is known associates right like i mean it's like one of those things in like a police procedural this is a known associate of danielle smith i
Carter: i said to a friend of mine today that everybody's going to get painted with the same brush even if all they did was take a ticket to the to the box they're
Carter: they're going to be treated to whatever is found to be the worst sin committed by the cohort right
Corey: right i mean that's the risk yeah whatever
Carter: whatever the cohort has done to this stage everybody who's going to be guilty of the same sin because they were playing for the same team i
Corey: they were
Corey: mean daniel smith is very much in the splash zone i guess we would both agree oh
Carter: oh absolutely absolutely so
Corey: so
Corey: so the challenge that is let's go back to this statement here and some of the conversation that was had how do you get out of the splash zone in that situation i don't think this statement does that no
Carter: no the statement doesn't go nearly far enough first of all i think you need You need to make sure that you're painting a villain.
Carter: Whoever the villain is going to be, there are two people in any good story. There is a protagonist and an antagonist. If you want to be the protagonist, you must define who the antagonist is. That is the very, I mean, simple literature, reading your kids a story at night, there's a good guy and there's a bad guy, right?
Corey: right?
Carter: You're going to tell a story to your kids in the car to make the long trip exciting? exciting they're the good guys there's a bad guy good guy who triumphs over bad guy so
Carter: so danielle did not set that up she needed to have a bad guy or at least a potential bad guy and
Carter: she didn't do that
Carter: and the the this the second piece is she really didn't tell us much of a story at all right
Carter: right remembering that we this is one of our constant criticisms of rachel notley we learn by stories.
Carter: The story that is being told now by Nahid Nenshi isn't that good a story, but it's still much more of a story than Danielle Smith told us. Danielle Smith should have told us the story of an AHS that's out of control, an AHS that was being run by people
Carter: who didn't have the competence or the character to make sure that this type of stuff didn't happen.
Carter: And this
Carter: this is is clearly
Carter: an ahs problem uh
Carter: uh but i think that one of the reasons she didn't tell us this cory and cory can you whisper it to you it's
Corey: no no no no listen it's
Corey: if you whisper something you
Carter: if you whisper something you
Corey: you can't get sued for it right can i make a broader point sure about this please yeah can i make it brought please when
Carter: about this please
Carter: yeah can
Corey: you are constructing in a statement like this one of the challenges you you have is you worry about where it might go and you don't want to put yourself into a corner you don't want to make statements that you're then going to have to walk back right you're trying to make it durable because you know what they always say is like it's the cover-up that kills but like in this case the broader point is like if you say something and then tomorrow you have to say the opposite because you were just loose with your words it starts to look like a cover-up even if it was just an accidental fuck up so when i say it's the lawyers run by communicators that's when language gets super tight when it gets super specific you can't say that you can't say that you don't know that for sure you absolutely must stick to this line very carefully here and um and and so i've
Corey: been on the inside there you've been on the inside there what often happens is you sit and you don't know where the next hit's coming from you don't know what the next shoe to drop is you don't know what information might be out there that you don't know or sometimes you either is information out there that you do know and you don't know if anybody else knows it and it creates very very interesting very narrow communications for the purposes
Carter: for the purposes of this podcast we were assuming she was innocent i
Corey: still am you know like i think
Carter: i think
Carter: think but if she's innocent then she's not worried about the information that she doesn't know because
Corey: because she knows that she
Carter: because she knows that she knows that she hasn't done any there's no wrongdoing on her behalf no
Corey: no no no i disagree with that because i think even if you're there knowing you did nothing like listen that the police came to my house today and said we want to talk to you about a bank heist that happened in downtown calgary where were you at this time okay thank you very much i'm gonna go on my way and then it started to be reported out there like oh there's a bank heist and it looks like stephen carter might be involved and cory hogan's a known associate of stephen carter right yeah i'm putting out a statement i'm gonna be like i wasn't involved involved at all.
Corey: Am I putting out a statement that says, and Stephen's innocent too?
Carter: No, no,
Carter: no, no, no. Right.
Carter: Right.
Corey: Right. But
Carter: But just for the record, I'd have lawyered up really quickly instead.
Corey: the record,
Carter: I'd be dollar bill Stern, baby.
Carter: Lawyer. Because I don't know.
Corey: don't know.
Carter: Lawyer. Because
Corey: I don't know. Because you don't know. So if you're Daniel Smith.
Carter: Because you don't know.
Carter: if you're Daniel Smith.
Corey: Lawyer. You
Corey: only know what you know. Yeah.
Carter: Yeah.
Carter: But here's the thing. You don't know what
Corey: here's the thing. You don't know what other people are doing. If
Carter: If you don't know what other people are doing and you think that they've been doing something wrong,
Carter: that's where you're you're fucked that's
Carter: that's where you're fucked yeah that's
Corey: that's where i'm fucked in this story too then because like you clearly robbed that bank i'm
Carter: i'm
Carter: i'm obviously would rob a bank i'm a bank robber yeah
Carter: yeah because my face is so um you
Corey: yeah because
Carter: know so generic generic white guy it'd be like could you imagine trying to pick me out of a lineup they'd have like five of us and we'd all look the exact same yeah
Corey: so generic
Corey: generic generic white guy it'd
Corey: yeah dominic cummings would go down for your crime dominic
Carter: crime dominic cummings mike mike bullard oh he's dead well
Corey: mike mike
Corey: well
Corey: it's perfect patsy then yeah aaron
Carter: yeah aaron
Carter: aaron
Corey: aaron o'toole aaron
Carter: aaron o'toole goes down for this yeah
Carter: yeah i mean there's thousands absolutely thousands of us
Corey: us
Carter: us but
Corey: but you know so like you do get into place but like let's go back to this statement and dissect it this to me shows it's a premier's office that doesn't feel fully in control of the issue doesn't have a full sense of what the facts are doesn't know what's going to get out there next yeah that is how it's written right now of course i agree yeah yeah
Carter: course i
Corey: yeah which
Carter: which then you
Carter: you know so allowing
Carter: that statement to go out when you don't know when you don't know what the next thing is that's a problem like
Carter: you can't like she's made it worse before making it better yeah
Corey: yeah well and here's the other challenge she has because we've talked about just the words here but this is the only thing she said on this yeah
Carter: yeah that's
Corey: that's that's the other challenge my understanding is she is slash was in panama she's now in washington dc right
Corey: she
Corey: she has made many statements about the u.s tariff situation both before and after if you go on her feed you'll see all of those have pictures and they're designed to look big on the feed and this one's designed to look small on the feed right and
Carter: the feed
Corey: it's starting to feel a bit absurd it's starting to feel a bit absurd that a half a billion dollar allegation has only been addressed in this particular fashion doesn't it oh
Carter: doesn't it oh
Carter: oh absolutely i mean that's a lot of money like
Carter: like like
Corey: yeah i mean that's one of those numbers that's so big people have trouble processing the oh
Corey: oh yeah the size of the challenge here well
Carter: yeah the
Carter: well let's just say for shits and giggles you
Carter: and i were involved in a fraud that had about 500 billion or 500 million dollars sure
Corey: sure absolutely just you know allegedly allegedly
Carter: allegedly first of all we would be we'd be small minnows right
Carter: yeah we
Corey: yeah we
Carter: we wouldn't be doing the whole thing we're just gonna get a small what
Carter: what we're gonna get two percent we're just gonna wet
Corey: we're just gonna wet at our beak yeah two percent each absolutely ten
Carter: ten million dollars each ten
Corey: ten million
Carter: million bucks yeah
Corey: yeah we're
Carter: we're not we're not we're not people who we're not overly greedy two
Carter: two percent feels good to us yeah take two points on the back end sure
Corey: yeah take two
Corey: sure oh my god that's pretty modest and that's ten million dollars right yeah
Carter: yeah this is exactly when it gets to numbers this big and
Carter: and what do you think the profit line would have looked like on that 75 million dollar tylenol deal yeah
Corey: well Well, let's not even bring that one in, right? We just don't know enough about it. But like the point is now- No, I'm just saying, what does
Carter: is now- No, I'm just saying, what does the profit line look like on that? Like
Corey: the profit line look
Carter: Like what is the incentive- It's got to be 100% margin.
Corey: what is the
Corey: the incentive- It's got to be 100% margin. At
Carter: At least 100%. It has to be 100%
Corey: 100%. It has to be 100% margin. At least 100%
Carter: At least 100% margin.
Corey: Given that the government was over a barrel, wanted these things in a hurry, was willing to take these extraordinary steps, has to be. Has
Carter: Has
Corey: Has
Carter: Has to be.
Corey: And also just looking at margins, like pharmaceutical margins can be like 90% in some cases. Exactly.
Carter: Exactly. Not usually
Corey: Exactly. Not usually for a commodity like Tylenol, but- But
Carter: But this is just it. How hard is it to make, you
Corey: is just
Carter: you know, what
Carter: what is it, acetaminophen or whatever? What's in Tylenol?
Corey: Tylenol? Yeah, that's Tylenol. Yeah,
Carter: Yeah, I mean, how hard is it to make? It's nothing. It's nothing. This is a known compound that everybody's been making. And you just have to, like, holy shit, 75 million of it?
Carter: I can't imagine how much real Tylenol you'd be able to buy for that.
Carter: Just insanity. A
Corey: insanity.
Corey: A lot.
Carter: Just insanity.
Carter: Okay. My point is just simply this.
Corey: Okay. My point
Carter: Yeah. That when you start to deal with numbers that are that large, the
Corey: Yeah. That when
Carter: the amount of incentive to
Carter: to actually start
Corey: actually start
Corey: to
Carter: to behave or misbehave becomes insane.
Carter: It is insane.
Corey: insane.
Corey: Which is why for contract, the bigger the contract, the more safeguards you put on it. Right.
Corey: Absolutely. So that is why you don't have people being
Carter: is why you don't have people being directed from the premier's office to
Carter: to hand out on
Corey: on
Carter: on
Corey: on half a billion dollar contracts. Well, if if that were to happen, like we again, we don't know. I just want to be really clear on that. Right. There are a bunch of things that are stated.
Carter: Well, if
Carter: are a
Corey: Nobody knows. But now the Premier's Office is going to have to deal with this. At the very least, there's going to be an Auditor General report.
Carter: You know what, Corey?
Corey: At that point. I
Carter: think we've made a real mistake here.
Corey: Doing this podcast. I think we should
Carter: I think we should have assumed that she was guilty.
Carter: We might have been a little more careful.
Carter: We might have been a little bit more careful with our words.
Carter: But by presuming she was innocent, now we put ourselves in a real pickle.
Corey: Yeah, we've actually caused more problems that way. It's a great point. OK, we touched on it briefly, the Nenshi response, which is almost like the
Carter: the Nenshi response,
Corey: the Nenshi response came before the,
Corey: the, you
Carter: you know,
Corey: know,
Carter: know,
Corey: know,
Corey: know,
Corey: know, the premier's rejoinder, I guess we'll call it. But
Carter: thing with the Nenshi response is the man has never found a way to say two
Carter: words when 200 will suffice.
Carter: It
Carter: lacks a soundbite, doesn't it? Jared Wesley, who said that the definition of a real scandal is one that can be written in a single tweet.
Corey: lacks a soundbite, doesn't it? Jared
SPEAKER_01: Jared
Corey: Jared Wesley, who said
SPEAKER_01: said
SPEAKER_01: And
Carter: And then he wrote the single tweet about
Carter: about this particular scandal.
Carter: And I don't have it in front of me. I don't want to misquote him. But
Carter: it was a banger of a tweet.
Carter: And I thought to myself, you know what? You
Carter: know who should have written that tweet?
Carter: Nahid Nenshi should have written that tweet. that tweet he would have yeah he would have had the ability to define this entire thing i got a note from christina gray today which makes no sense to me at all this is a leader all the way issue i
Carter: i got a quote i got an email from christina gray that was paragraphs long explaining
Carter: explaining this whole thing to me if you take paragraphs to explain this you are losing this war yeah
Corey: this whole
Corey: like wesley's tweet which i just pulled up here is allegedly you know so this is him stating like like this is how you would summarize it in one tweet right be the scandal right jesus we should have started with this can i say can we we should have started with this do you want allegedly yeah
Carter: allegedly yeah
Corey: let's just okay hang on again hang
Carter: okay hang on again hang on episode
Carter: episode
SPEAKER_01: episode
Carter: episode
Corey: episode this
Carter: this is episode eight welcome to episode 1848g i'm stephen carter and with me as always cory hogan why
Corey: welcome to
Corey: episode 1848g
SPEAKER_01: 1848g
Corey: 1848g
Corey: i'm
SPEAKER_01: i'm
Corey: i'm
Carter: don't we open up with that jared wesley tweet yeah
Corey: don't we open up with
Corey: yeah uh allegedly smith's staff pressured health care officials to approve over half a billion dollars in private health care contracts to a businessman who bought them seats in nhl luxury boxes in return for the favor then smith fired a ceo who tried to investigate pretty
Corey: good but way better summary than we did gotta say i'll tell you jared much better if
Carter: if it's only they bought him seats for the playoffs do
Carter: you think that's all it is i
Corey: that's all it
Corey: mean again
Corey: carter so So careful. Tread careful here. Like, we just don't know. But even that, like, those things are worth thousands of dollars, seats like that. Yeah,
Carter: like, those things
Carter: Yeah, they are.
Corey: Yeah. Remember
Carter: Remember the profit margin.
SPEAKER_01: the profit margin.
Corey: So those are the allegations. And so this is the challenges that we're now facing here. Right.
Corey: So here we are. Right.
Corey: We're now talking about Nenshi. Nenshi's response wasn't pithy.
Corey: It was, however, I think, a pretty good prosecutorial laying out of the case. I actually thought he was pretty good. I think
Carter: actually thought he was pretty good. I think if we had 12 jurors in a box who
Carter: who had to pay attention, right,
Carter: right, at the risk of the judge throwing them out and into jail for contempt, I
Corey: I think
Carter: I think those 12 people would have paid attention. All
Corey: All right. Tell
Corey: me I'm wrong. You're not wrong. Tell me I'm wrong. And your point about like the emails and all of this, it's true. And actually, I'll say another challenge people have with, with allegations of scandal like this is the longer your, your explanation, the more you come off, like you've lost your mind, right? That you're just piecing together random things. And like, you're picking up this piece of the scandal and that piece of the scandal. And, and what Jared points out, I think rightly is like when you can put succinctly and everyone like just sort of gets it like, oh, that's it. Like, that's the scandal.
Carter: And like,
Corey: That's the real power. And the power of
Carter: And the power of this needs to be this needs to be the defining factor. Right. We need to learn from Pierre Polyev on this. Right. Pierre Polyev has said this is where, you know, the carbon tax, the carbon tax, the carbon tax. And it's all been the carbon tax. And of course, the weakness of that is now the carbon tax is gone. But this scandal never goes away. This scandal is there for the remaining two and a half years of Danielle Smith's tenure. And if you do this right, if you set this up properly and you start just simply saying a half a billion dollars for a few hockey tickets and Lord knows what else.
Carter: Right. They
Carter: got a half a billion dollars in the contracts, Corey, for a few hockey tickets and Lord knows what else. See
Carter: what I did there?
Corey: Yeah, I do. And, you know, in many ways, I think that Smith's tweet about defamatory allegations was aimed at an audience of one. yeah
SPEAKER_01: yeah
Carter: yeah and it
Corey: and it wasn't you i think it was not hidden in she i think that she was trying to imply that she would sue not head for oh that would be spectacular i
Carter: be spectacular
Carter: spectacular i
Carter: i
Corey: i
Corey: i mean it would be wild you
Corey: you know what this scandal this quote-unquote this alleged scandal needs though what
Carter: what nickname
SPEAKER_01: nickname right
SPEAKER_01: right oh
Carter: oh it needs a gate i don't
Carter: don't hate the gate or i
Corey: gate or i don't you know it doesn't need to be a gate it could be something like smith backs instead of kickbacks that's not a good one it's not a good
Carter: good one
Corey: one you
Carter: you
Corey: you
Corey: you
Carter: you know what we you know this is where we really need zane he
Corey: can
Carter: can be pithy he
Corey: he can be can
Corey: can he that's
Corey: not been my experience no actually you know what now that
Carter: no actually you know what now that i'm thinking about it yeah
Corey: yeah the
Carter: the this is one of the joys of doing the carter and hogan episodes right
Carter: right like look at this sucker 39
Carter: 39 minutes in 39
Corey: 39 one
Carter: one take yeah
Corey: yeah so so much rich content here okay god
Carter: so so
Carter: god so
Corey: so where do the ndp go from here they
Corey: they need
Carter: need
Corey: need What do they do now? They
Carter: they do now? They need to start over. They need to define this again and make this a Nahid Nenshi exclusive and just go at it every single day. And then when they get into the legislature, they've got to go at it every single day. There is nothing else but this. There is no concern. Like, today there was an open house talking about the coal mining on the eastern slopes. Interesting. Fantastic. Another situation, I would totally be behind it. In fact, I'm
Corey: the eastern slopes.
Carter: I'm behind it. I don't think that there should be coal mining on the eastern slopes of the Canadian Rockies. Does not fucking matter. matter only thing that matters is danielle smith and her government gave a half a billion dollars worth of work to a company that in exchange it appears or or the
SPEAKER_01: eastern slopes
Carter: same company that gave them
Corey: same company
Carter: hockey tickets you
Corey: you know the ndp what else
Carter: know the ndp what else
Carter: else
Corey: else figure
Corey: figure out a phrasing that gives you that legal shield and you use that exact same phrasing every single
Carter: single like
Corey: single like
Corey: like you don't need to struggle the way steven and i are to talk about being allegations just find the way to say it and say it right i think
Carter: like
Carter: right i think i said it better earlier uh
Carter: uh you know you
Corey: you know but
Carter: but then you i saw the look on your face you went a little green yeah
Carter: yeah
Corey: yeah i was like
Carter: yeah i was like well maybe i'm a little close to getting sued well you know
Corey: well you know this is a podcast that we're gonna have to run by lawyers but it's not like the lawyers are gonna write the podcast so you know we're still in that ground we're okay no we're not gonna run this by you know
Carter: know we're still in that ground we're
Carter: know who we should call jonathan
Carter: dennis i
Corey: hear he's got some free time he's got some free
Carter: he's got some free time and he's still still
Carter: still a lawyer
Corey: qc casey i guess casey now yeah yeah
Carter: casey now yeah yeah
Corey: yeah i had
Carter: i had difficulty with that switch yeah
Corey: yeah i know because you want to say and the sunshine gang yeah you hear it exactly
Carter: yeah you
Carter: exactly it makes it it's hilarious yeah
Corey: yeah we're
Carter: we're of a certain age when we come up with kc and the sunshine
Carter: how many how many people in our podcast listening i
Corey: people in
Corey: i mean actually probably a lot of them yeah you know that's just life hey so okay we should promote the discord though
Carter: mean actually probably a
Carter: yeah you know
Carter: we should promote the discord though we should promote you know being a patron yeah
Corey: yeah six dollars get the discord have we done this is lit
Carter: this is lit you guys You guys got to be on that. You
Corey: got to be on
Corey: You got to be on the Discord. You got to find your way to the Discord.
Corey: We're breaking stuff there all the time. Okay. So we got the Nenshi response, the
Corey: NDP response, we're going to call it. We've got Smith in a bit of trouble. Right.
Carter: Right. Right.
Corey: Right.
Corey: Right. How
Corey: about the media? What do you do if you're the media? Now, where do you go? First of all, let us give
Carter: First of all, let us give props to Carrie Tate for breaking the story. Once
Corey: Once again. For getting
Carter: Once
Carter: For getting the information. Because
Corey: information. Because we did that, but we can do it again. We're
Carter: again. We're doing it again. We're giving props because props are free. And that's the type of stuff that we give away. You
Corey: You know what? Free shit. Unlike the Discord, which is $6. Props are free. Props are free.
Carter: which is $6.
Carter: Props are free. Props are free.
Carter: Problem
Carter: is, how much more can they continue to invest in it? It's the Globe and Mail. If this was post-media, this thing would be over already.
Carter: It's the Globe and Mail, so I suspect that we're going to see an awful lot more chasing by Carrie Tate and her colleagues. And they're going to go after this like shit on a stick. No, they're going to go after this like... Is that a saying
Corey: this like... Is that a saying that anyone has ever used before? No, I'm
Carter: used before? No, I'm lost on my sayings. I
Carter: I don't know what idiom to use.
Carter: Wow. Okay. Here's the thing. Shit on a stick. I think they're going to continue to do it, and they're going to continue to push, and they're going to find more stuff. Because I think, you
Corey: Wow. Okay. Here's the thing.
Corey: Shit on a stick.
Carter: you know, Carrie Tate has been the one who's been the closest to this UCP government and seeing how they actually are working. And it's no surprise to me that she's the one who's broken the story.
Corey: Okay. you talked about one more thing i wanted to try to get in there which is this is not the only thing that the ucp is dealing with right now right and so the coal mining oh yeah is
Corey: is also getting pretty big mla is having to cancel coffees with constituents and whatnot because there's so many angry constituents out there yeah
Carter: yeah who
Corey: who do not want to see it's
Carter: it's a seven eastern slopes seven
Corey: seven eastern slopes seven to three issue yeah
Corey: yeah right
Carter: right like it is a big fucking issue and and danielle has tried to hide it um Maybe tried too hard to hide it because she unleashed this AHS thing. But this is the
Carter: coal mine stuff is huge. If
Carter: If they go ahead with this, they're going to have they're
SPEAKER_01: If they go
Carter: going to have a lot of angry constituents. And I don't know that the NDP can win in every place it's going to be angry, but I suspect that they can win in some. And
Carter: And I don't know if you followed the last election, Corey,
Corey: I don't
Carter: but it was pretty close. Pretty
Corey: Pretty close. It's pretty close.
Carter: pretty close.
Carter: A few hundred more votes here, a few hundred more votes there. Suddenly, Rachel Notley's not practicing law. I'm just saying.
Corey: Rachel
Corey: Well, it's interesting to me because you wouldn't normally think that the ridings on the Rockies, with the exception of Banff-Canmore or Banff-Cochrane, whatever it's called now, right, is
Corey: in play. But this
Corey: this could at least mess things up for the UCP in some challenging
Corey: challenging ways, right, where they're playing some defense. fence and and certainly it's one of those issues that while it's intensely felt in the communities that are affected it's also felt in the cities like you don't have to work real hard to walk
Corey: walk around calgary and see signs where people are mad about this i mean one of the reasons people like to live here for those of you not here is the proximity to the rocky mountains and the and you know the landscapes and the outdoor living never
Corey: never been my thing no
Carter: no i'm not really sure why i'm here I mean, maybe
Corey: really sure why i'm here I mean, maybe
Carter: maybe
Corey: maybe that's
Carter: that's why Zane can't record.
Carter: Maybe he's lost in the Rockies.
Corey: Maybe. He would
Carter: He would be having a hard time finding his way out. You
Corey: be having
Corey: You know what? It's both not at all likely, but very likely if he tried. Yeah, exactly. I heard one time
Carter: Yeah, exactly. I heard one time he went to Canmore. I was worried for him.
Corey: I mean, yeah.
Corey: yeah. Canmore is like a city, but even then I am worried. They still call
Carter: They still call it the town of Canmore, hey?
Corey: Do they? What a fraud. They're trying, but it's a city now. What a fraud. It's
Carter: but it's a city now. What a fraud. It's a city for sure.
Corey: It's a city for sure? Yeah. Yeah.
Carter: Yeah. Yeah.
Corey: Okay, so we didn't say anything substantive about coal mining, but It's
Carter: It's bad.
Corey: Okay. There
Carter: There you go.
Corey: Strong ending.
Carter: is this the end?
Corey: Do you have anything else to say? I
Carter: thought you looked good tonight.
Carter: Thank you.
Corey: you. I'm
Corey: not returning that compliment. I'm
Carter: I'm wearing my sweater.
Corey: Oh, is that what that is?
SPEAKER_01: They're
SPEAKER_01: here to give you the takes and you're here for them.