Zain: This is a strategist episode 1848E. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, there's one Corey Hogan, and there's also one Stephen Carter. Guys, what's going on?
Carter: Don't
Zain: care, Carter. Do not care. Do not care. We have a massive update. Corey told me to dress
Carter: Do not
Carter: a massive update. Corey told me to dress up, but I didn't know this was going to be a jacketed affair. I'm a little... Yeah,
Zain: know this
Zain: this
Zain: Yeah, we've... Why are we got three various definitions of dressing up?
Zain: Yeah. You
Corey: You didn't get the memo at all. What's your definition?
Zain: didn't get the
Zain: all. What's your definition?
Zain: definition? No, I usually come without a t-shirt. What definition are you
Corey: definition? No, I usually come without a t-shirt. What definition are you meeting?
Zain: So, this is an upgrade. uh
Corey: So, this is an upgrade. uh
Zain: cory's wearing a suit jacket and a what is
Corey: a
Zain: is this like laser yes it's a blazer yeah knowing cory it's probably a suit jacket carter it's not even a blazer he doesn't even shop blazer he shops straight suit jacket he's that guy he actually does he's that guy doesn't even know the difference cory can you tell us the difference between the two oh
Corey: laser yes it's a blazer
Corey: yeah knowing
Corey: a blazer he
Corey: actually does he's that
Corey: oh man a lot to do with the cut and the way it kind of fits below so generic sounds like a generic answer
Zain: generic answer cory don't
Zain: don't think that's all
Corey: think that's all you You know what? We're going to get the menswear guy on here as a guest once we get through all of our other guests that we've got teed up now. Great account.
Zain: guests that we've
Zain: we've got teed up now. Great account. That's why I dress like this. He's inspired me to not even try. To give up. And wear whatever this is. I call this the Aziz Ansari on Fifth Avenue outfit. fit. Now, Corey, you have a massive update. Just to remind our listeners, we have invited every liberal leadership candidate onto this program for an unlimited amount of time, their discretion, whichever episode they want, up to them to pump themselves, their cause, their candidacy. And the only caveat is that they have to host the show. And Corey, I suspect we are getting getting flooded in our inbox, which, of course, is media at cartersmonthlynut.com. Corey, give us the update.
Corey: up. And
Corey: Well, it does feel like you'd have to be insane not to take us up on that offer. It's pretty amazing. With our 7
Carter: It's pretty
Zain: pretty amazing. With our
Carter: our 7
Corey: 7 million monthly listeners. Yeah, give or take, for sure. Give or take. Yeah. Give or take. But I'm a little embarrassed to tell you, Zane, we have no
Carter: give or
Zain: or take,
Corey: emails. I did check. No emails at all or no
Zain: No emails at all or no emails from registered? I mean, actually,
Corey: registered? I mean, actually, none. on like you literally put out an email address on a podcast that is listened to by as we already discussed seven million people that doesn't seem right hang on that seems like nobody you problem nobody has the fact that nobody's
Zain: people that doesn't seem right
Zain: hang on that seems like nobody you problem nobody has the fact that nobody's emailed is is more of a you problem no
Zain: no you know it's
Corey: no you know it's problematic though because this was our um well
Corey: this was our plan for next week like because you were going on vacation i do have a vacation
Zain: i do have a vacation
Zain: vacation yeah
Corey: yeah
Zain: yeah
Zain: yeah
Corey: yeah
Zain: yeah this is this was a way over
Carter: this was a way over carter
Corey: over
Zain: this was a way for us to to get chandra aria to host the show uh but can we pump this again this is a public episode okay so can i just say media at carter's monthly nut.com okay i
Carter: i can't believe it yeah okay
Zain: believe it yeah
Corey: okay
Zain: okay
Corey: okay
Zain: okay we didn't need
Carter: okay we didn't
Corey: didn't need that that wasn't a good bridge but we
Zain: we
Corey: we have been told we have a bit of a credibility problem here and
Corey: and i don't know we might have hurt our chances of people emailing by using the um the
Corey: the email address that you just picked so what is
Zain: is the alternative email address i
Corey: the
Corey: i mean I mean, let's just use that one. Okay, so alternative that'll do it. I'm not going to set up another one.
Zain: one. Okay, so alternative that'll do it. I'm not going to set up another one.
Corey: Media
Zain: Media at cartersmonthly.com. Also, inquire, I-N-Q-U-I-R-E, at thecraispoliticallymotivated.com, okay? That is where you can inquire at thecraispoliticallymotivated.com. That is where you can email us. In fact, you know what? Scrap the first email. If you are the person who wants to be prime minister, send us an email at inquireatthecraispoliticallymotivated.com to get your spot on the show to host what I guess is next week. I want to be in the room
Corey: Also,
Carter: to be in the room when someone pitches this to their boss.
Zain: someone
Carter: You know? I want to be in the room when someone says, you know what? I think this is a good idea. Is
Zain: to be in the room
Corey: room when
Zain: I
Corey: I
Zain: I
Corey: I think this
Zain: this is a good idea.
Corey: idea.
Zain: idea. Is
Corey: Is
Zain: Is
Corey: Is this your way of saying you have not
Zain: not pitched this to the Carney
Corey: this
Carter: this to the Carney campaign? Why
Corey: Carney
Zain: Why have you not pitched this to the Carney campaign? Is it because you're not high enough on the, like, what's going on? I'm
Carter: like, what's
Carter: I'm trying to hang on to a shred, just a shred of credibility.
Corey: No,
Zain: No,
Corey: No,
Zain: No,
Corey: No, too
Zain: too late. It's a tough crowd. I get it, Carter. But, you know, often they are looking for new, bold, and innovative ideas. No, no. You're thinking
Carter: It's
Corey: It's
Carter: It's
Corey: It's
Carter: It's
Corey: It's a tough
Carter: No, no. You're thinking
Zain: thinking
Carter: thinking
Carter: thinking of a different campaign. The Carney campaign is just going straight ahead to become prime minister. Oh, okay. Wow. Carter admits,
Zain: thinking of a different campaign.
Zain: become prime
Zain: Oh, okay. Wow. Carter admits, shots fired. Yeah, shots fired against one's own campaign. That's good.
Carter: shots fired. Yeah,
Zain: No innovation here.
Zain: Pedestrian PMO-powered campaigning. That's
Zain: That's what Christopher Freeland would say. say that's
Corey: Christopher Freeland
Carter: Freeland
Carter: would
Corey: would say. say
Carter: that's exactly
Zain: exactly this is our long promised brand episode we're going to get into the brand of each of the liberal candidates now that the field has gelled now that the field is uh solidified cory but before that can we spend let's
Corey: this is
Carter: is
Zain: let's say 10 i'm going to give it 10 it might end up being 15 it might end up being the whole show we may never get to the branding episode there are three strategy questions on the table that i think are worthwhile to consider before we get into the branding episode, which we are going to do, Stephen Carter. And I want you guys to give me your take. I'm not going to do the strategy scale. I'm not going to do the fine, fabulous, or fucked. You guys just give me your take. And thing number one that I want to start on is Christopher Freeland. It's the reference I just made, which is on the house this
Corey: strategy questions
Carter: And I
Zain: week. She was on the CBC radio program, and she mentioned that Mark
Zain: Carney is getting all the endorsements of her colleagues, the cabinet ministers, because it's clear now that he's the insider candidate, it. And
Zain: it is clear now that he is the PMO's pick for Prime Minister. And
Zain: I'm curious, on a strategy level, Carter, you're clearly conflicted. If not conflict, well, maybe you're not because you're willing to, you know, speak truth about your campaign's lack of innovation. So who knows where you'll go here. But Carter, we just want to disclose your relationship with the Carney campaign as thin as it might be. Your words, not ours. But Corey, what do you think of this strategy by christopher freeland and i mentioned this earlier because there was talk of her team putting this out there to seed the ground prior to lunch but now we've heard it from her that that that carney's the insider he's the pmo driven candidate like this is the guy you want if you want more of the same strategy
Carter: Your words,
Corey: it from her
Zain: strategy wise and then how is it landing for you give me your take and the card will come to you on the same well
Corey: first of all um of
Corey: course he's the the pmo pick right like we do know that that doesn't necessarily mean he's continuity the pmo might i mean it's unlikely but it's possible they know they need change in order to go forward too so she's not she's not wrong about that and in a funny way i think her argument is more more
Corey: more true and more accurate than it's possibly going to come off and that sort of gets to the point where we're talking about her on the house here she was the fucking deputy prime minister she was at the center of of the Trudeau government forever until she was fired, apparently for a lack of competency. So like, I just don't, I don't know that this argument is going to work very much. I think it's likely to antagonize a lot of the liberals. And I do, I do worry a little bit on behalf of the liberals for, for the amount of, I guess, tape she's creating for the conservatives to create an attack ads, right? Like, so the liberals best shot is they can break from this time. time freeland might win carney might win it does sort of feel like the consensus is carney is in the pole position at this particular moment right but if carney does win freeland is starting to poison the you know the carney brand before going forward and she might make the calculation this is how i win this is how i do it but it does seem like a pretty high risk strategy because if you end up running for this man and you've convinced canadians along the way of losing that he is continuity i
Zain: we're talking
Corey: don't know i mean i just don't know that's a very wise idea it makes me think back to that 2006 liberal leadership race when stefan dion as you know shouting at they like um you know in toronto this debate of liberal leadership candidates like do you think it's easy to make priorities which became that soundbite right in all of these ads you know dion almost shrill hysterical yelling this uh became a conservative attack ad and then there's you know ignatiev saying, we didn't get the job done, we didn't get the job done.
Corey: And I just wonder, did the liberals learn nothing in the past 20 years?
Zain: In the scope of the attack, and perhaps what it could be utilized for, Corey, or the effectiveness of the attack? Sorry, just so I'm clear. How
Corey: How the attack can be used is a challenge. I think it is also a challenge that this attack is not likely to be effective. And when you combine those two, I can't give it particularly particularly high marks, because you're essentially taking a line of attack that with a more general audience, even people watching the house, I'm going to call a more general audience. They're going to say, yeah, but that doesn't really ring that true. Christian, you were the deputy prime minister, you were the finance minister. I hear what you're saying, but it just doesn't ring true.
Corey: And you have in the meantime, also created this potential attack ad for the conservative. Carter,
Zain: Carter, what do you think of this? And I'm giving you the strategist hall pass, which is, of course, what we give Stephen Carter to speak the truth, even if he's actively sitting on a campaign. It seems like you've already used it on the show, but I'll keep granting it to you for this particular question. What do you make of the Freeland strategy to say Carney's the insider, he's the PMO pick? I
Carter: think there's a credibility problem, to be sure.
Carter: The credibility of being the person who's the deputy prime minister, standing beside Justin Trudeau for how many years now? Was it, Corey? Six years? Something like that? I
Corey: I mean, if you want to count it just in that tenure, but the fact of the matter is she was like an early by-election person under his leadership. 2013 yeah around right there she was
Carter: 2013 yeah
Carter: right there she was right there and and uh
Carter: uh i mean it's not like it the uh uh
Carter: uh the carnies and the freelands are estranged i mean godfather
Carter: godfather to her children um this is a this
Carter: is an in in the in the family spat that is coming outside of the family and i think it's because of desperation because
Carter: because she's finding that the the the person who holds the knife very
Carter: very rarely wears the crown.
Carter: And that is a
Carter: sparking requirement for, I'm
Carter: I'm
Carter: I'm not the insider, you're the insider.
Carter: And it just comes across as really weak. I suspect both
Carter: both of them have managed to pick up their fair share of cabinet ministers. Both of them have managed to pick up their fair share of
Carter: members of parliament.
Carter: And I suspect both of them are picking up their fair share of people who used to work in the prime minister's office so this is it's a fake it's a fake call let's
Corey: be clear they're both fucking insiders right like them sitting there saying no you're more insider than me is just just like the the
Carter: right like
Corey: the most glass houses stones argument they could possibly be having you have a former deputy prime minister arguing with a former bank of canada governor who was going to be the handpicked replacement for said finance minister they're both insiders and so So to have this spat out there and create this ammunition I think is – it's a choice, but I'm not sure it's one that she's going to not regret. Let's do a B-side
Zain: not regret. Let's do a B-side on each of these. Corey, don't change her strategy, but optimize it.
Zain: What would have made this play better for Freeland? You guys both talked about the credibility problem. Let's just say she had to be the messenger on this because I don't want you to just be like, oh, hand it off to someone else. Hand it off to a reliable proxy. No. What would have made this message better coming from Freeland? Corey, to you, then to Carter. Well,
Corey: it's not a message for a general audience. So I guess I'm going to play a little bit with the premise that you've given me here. I wouldn't make her the messenger to everybody. If she wants to make that argument, like I said at the start, I think it's actually kind of true, right? He is clearly the PMO pick. Pick up the phone, call influential liberals, work that phone of yours, get your team to work the phone, and have that conversation there. But to have that conversation with the next level out, with those registered liberals who are only going to ever know you based on your persona and your brand, which is very Team Trudeau, what is the point? All you're doing is creating a sense of mess in the party and you're throwing stones. Let's not forget, you're not just throwing stones at Carney, you're implicitly throwing stones at Justin Trudeau and everybody around Justin Trudeau. And
Zain: If
Corey: we have had this conversation many times on this pod. He's still very, very popular in the Liberal Party. He still has very strong control over the Liberal Party. He built up the executive, he selected the candidates, he picked the cabinet, and
Corey: and you're fighting with them. And I do not know that that's a particularly strong case to make internally, and I just don't think it's going to resonate externally.
Zain: Carter, make it better. Make Freeland's strategy better here. Number
Carter: one is timing. You don't do it when everybody's just signing up. It looks like you're just sad that everybody decided not to come for you. Plant the idea in people's heads, first of all. Give them, you know, like through back channels, start to plant the idea that Carney's the insider who's getting help from the PMO. That had started. Give it two more weeks to actually take hold where the idea itself isn't preposterous. And all of a sudden, now you come out in two weeks and say, you
Carter: know,
Carter: Carney's the insider. Carney's got all the prime minister's help.
Carter: Here are the 26 people who used to work for Justin Trudeau, who are now working for Mark Carney.
Carter: Bring up the cork board
Zain: Bring up the cork board with the red string.
Carter: Exactly.
Zain: Exactly.
Carter: Exactly.
Zain: Exactly.
Carter: Exactly.
Carter: You know what? I actually would just because I think that would be hilarious. But, you know, you
Zain: I
Corey: I think
Zain: think that
Carter: have to set the expectation before you can meet the expectation. So
Carter: So set people thinking about this before you actually start talking about it.
Carter: And Chrystia Freeland just jumped before people were ready to hear her argument. And
Zain: it's a parallel sort of point to one that a former colleague of ours used to make, Susan Elliott, if you remember Susan. And I'll always remember when Susan said that politicians who solve things that no one knows is a problem never get credit for solving it, even if they did it tremendously well. Problem definition needs to be what you spend a lot of your political capital on. And then you can come in as the solution, either your candidacy or your position on said policy. And I think this is a cousin to that in many ways, where, you know, you're driving right to the conclusion without kind of setting up the, not the theatrics of the problem, but in some ways, the theatrics and the casuals and the gradual sort of build up to the problem. Okay, I take that in stride. I don't want to spend too long on this. Number two.
Corey: remember when
Corey: said
Carter: said policy.
Corey: policy.
Zain: We're only on number two? Pierre Polyev, Stephen Carter. No Hall Pass needed for this, unless you're working on the Pierre Polyev side of things, too. Yeah, I'm everywhere. Because if you started the last two weeks, that makes sense.
Corey: Yeah, I'm everywhere. Because
Zain: Because he has not had a lot of good – he
Zain: he has not had a good last couple of weeks. It's been a rough two weeks. I think so. I think this letter – at least I'm going to put myself out there. I think this letter also speaks to a rough two weeks. He has written a letter this morning, and I'm going to read you two – three paragraphs. I'm going to read you two of the three paragraphs. So we record on Sunday. He writes his letter January 26th. Mr. Carney, I will get straight to the point. The reason that there is a liberal leadership race for you to run in today is that the liberals admitted that Canadians were done with Justin Trudeau and all the damage he's done to our country over the past nine years. I'm going to skip to the last paragraph. You could be the prime minister in 43 days, and if you are to be any different than the man you are trying to replace, will you commit now to banning any prior Trudeau minister from serving in your cabinet, or will you hire the same Trudeau ministers to pursue the same Trudeau agenda and continue the same Trudeau failures that the country has rejected?
Corey: good
Carter: good last couple of weeks. It's been a rough two weeks. I think
Corey: think
Carter: think so. I think
Carter: – at least I'm going
Zain: Carter, I'm going to start with you you on this one.
Zain: What do you make of the Pierre strategy to put this letter out, this three paragraph letter addressed directly to Mark Carney? So the first strategy question is, you know, the conservative approach just on Carney alone. And the second one is on this particular question, to wedge him against the endorsees that are coming to support him, him, of course, being Carney. What do you make of the strategy? I
Carter: make very little of the strategy, Zane. I think it's a terrible idea. I think that the best thing that Danielle Smith did during the NDP leadership was shut the fuck up and stayed out of it um this is this isn't a thing that he can win this is a thing that is an internal party battle the general population is not involved and not paying attention and uh he's just bringing more light to mark carney um that's something he does not want to do oh the person that the pierre pauliev is afraid of is mark carney says the liberal membership?
Carter: Noted. This
Carter: This is a tremendously stupid idea. And I don't know why on earth Pierre Polyev would do it. And talk
Carter: talk about weak sauce. I mean, this isn't something that... I mean, are people thinking about this? Are people thinking about this every day? I wonder who Mark Carney will appoint as his ministers. I mean, come on. There's
Carter: There's going to be crossover over because the the best people are still the best people i mean it's just it's absolute weakness
Zain: carter goes with the why you so obsessed with me angle on this cory is this weak sauce by polyever is it actually a a helpful wedge to him even if his uh execution you may not agree with in terms of how he did it what do you think
Corey: no i mean this is not the trap he thinks it is this is um this is a bunch of people in a room who clearly thought oh he fucking got him yeah we've been sitting here for two weeks not able to react to the changing environment and the fact that we're now in this big fight with america and that the entire landscape has changed and all of our election plans for two years carbon tax election thrown out the window we're not getting that carbon tax no but we fucking got them because we'll just point out that listen to me people couldn't even point out who the current ministers are they can't compare list a to list b because they don't know what either fucking list is it's a pointless exercise and look i get it you really want the election that you planned but you've got to reorient yourself that's just not it's not going gonna be helpful here's what i would do if i were mark carney one not respond that's okay nobody gives a shit it doesn't give pierre polliev anything to work and just because i know what he
Zain: carbon tax election thrown out the window we're
Zain: and just because i know what he did just i'm gonna just jump in quickly carney carney into the media today said something to the extent of pierre polliev needs to find better things to do on a sunday morning than write me letters that was a version of the response keep going yeah
Corey: yeah that's basically one two just
Corey: just say no again you lose nothing and maybe you just want to say no because you don't like the guy very much that's fine so what do you mean by saying say no like say
Zain: what do you mean by saying say no
Zain: say no that i'm not going to appoint the same ministers just to be clear yeah
Corey: yeah
Zain: yeah
Corey: yeah
Corey: yeah yeah like
Zain: yeah yeah
Zain: yeah
Zain: like you know like i
Corey: i don't recommend just getting into a conversation back and forth but if you just said no one ever engaged again nobody would ever hear about it because see all of my points before this point or
Zain: or three
Corey: three just say hey listen man this
Corey: this is a time to build we are we're not going to exclude anybody from the cabinet my god i'm not even sure i would exclude you pierre we got to work together as a country and just you know you've got you can could basically respond any way you want with basically no downside like i i normally when you see something that somebody has tried to establish as a trap you think hmm tricky how is he going to get out of this oh yeah for
Carter: oh yeah for
Corey: for me it's almost the opposite it's like how's
Corey: he not going to get out of this like how could he possibly hurt himself on this particular letter like get a paper cut maybe if one of his staff prints it out it's about all i can think about like it's it's it's a pointless exercise option
Zain: option number four put out a press uh release tonight and do only one thing send the meme of the mean girls gif that says why are you so obsessed with me uh and add no further comment uh gen z's gonna shred that to pieces is that
Corey: add
Carter: add no
Carter: uh gen
Corey: gen
Carter: is that how we're sending that by fact whatever central bankers
Zain: whatever central bankers use to send info i don't know if it's that pipe that they have that sucks up the the canister uh the pneumatic one yeah i like that i like that that's a very central
Carter: the
Corey: the pneumatic
Carter: pneumatic one yeah
Corey: yeah
Carter: yeah i like that
Corey: that i
Carter: that that's a very central
Carter: central banker hey
Zain: hey carter i love those optimize this strategy for me don't change it don't
Zain: don't not do it optimize this for Pierre, for me? What would have made it better? I'm asking you to help on the margins. I'm not asking you to change this thing.
Carter: I
Carter: probably would make it a list.
Carter: And again, I would have waited. You, in
Carter: in the last five days, have been endorsed by
Carter: Dominic Leblanc. These people?
Zain: These people?
Zain: Yeah. You've
Carter: Yeah. You've been endorsed by... I don't even know if he was endorsed by Dominic Leblanc. I don't think he said anything.
Zain: I don't think he said anything.
Carter: Champagne, and Ida
Zain: Champagne, and Ida Nand, or whatever. Champagne,
Carter: or whatever. Champagne, and yeah, Nand, and and all
Carter: all of these ministers can you pledge can
Carter: you pledge that these ministers who are
Carter: are clearly coming to you because they've been promised something can
Carter: can you pledge that they will not be ministers in the next government what
Carter: what have you promised them and
Carter: and what is it that they're coming because the
Carter: the shit that justin trudeau promised them has turned out badly for the country you
Corey: still fucking say no yeah or just listen he's trying to as he said he's giving
Carter: listen he's trying to as he said he's giving me a big pile of shit and telling me to turn it into something good.
Carter: I'm surprised you guys
Zain: I'm surprised you guys think this is a bit... I mean, I think this will be a letter that goes nowhere. But maybe the other question is that do you think this will actually do harm to Pierre? Like, do you feel like... Oh, so it's like one of those... No, it's not going to do harm either. It's just a miss. It's not a hit. It's just a strikeout, per se.
Corey: It's
Carter: But
Zain: But
Carter: But
Corey: But if
Zain: if
Carter: if I were conservative... Lyle Landon, at one time, had the same impact.
Corey: if I were conservative... Lyle Landon,
Corey: Yeah, if I were a conservative organizer, my anxiety from this letter would not be, oh he's done damage to himself it's oh my god he doesn't actually get what's happening right now
Zain: now yeah
Carter: yeah or we
Corey: yeah or
Corey: or we just
Zain: we just continue a bad streak right the streak is not broken well in in some ways and if i'm talking about days not the years then in the in the upcoming of polls but you know you people in in in that world still live in days what have you done for me recently cory i'm gonna ask you the same question optimize this don't change it optimize it for me what would you what would you have written differently okay
Corey: ask you the same question
Corey: optimize it for
Corey: well nobody knows cabinet people know one cabinet minister pick one Pick one. Pick one that people know. Commit to not putting our disastrous finance minister, Chrystia Freeland, in the cabinet. Can you do that?
Carter: Oh, that's great. And then
Corey: And then if the answer is no, you've still got a very interesting conversation. Really
Carter: Really interesting variant on my idea.
Corey: Yeah. I
Zain: I think Carter's trying to say it's his idea. No.
Corey: No. That's Carter's version.
Zain: Carter's version.
Corey: You took Pierre's bad idea and made it a mediocre idea. And I took your mediocre idea. It's a long time since we've talked about variants. You made it a
Zain: since we've talked about variants.
Carter: You made it a decent idea. You didn't make it a great idea. He crawled
Corey: decent idea.
Corey: crawled so
Corey: so that you could crap your pants while toddling around, and then I took it and I ran with it. Oh, my God. That's what happened. So
Zain: So that's
Carter: that's what you
Corey: that's what
Zain: what
Corey: what you
Zain: you get when
Carter: when
Zain: when you wear a suit jacket.
Carter: No, it's good to know. It's good to know. The guy in the suit jacket on
Zain: No,
Zain: jacket
Carter: Yeah, not a blazer.
Zain: blazer. A
Zain: A suit jacket on a weekend.
Carter: suit jacket on a weekend. A
Zain: A suit jacket. Prove it's a blazer.
Carter: Yeah,
Zain: Yeah, a
Carter: a
Zain: a suit jacket.
Carter: jacket. In my
Zain: my basement. A suit jacket on a weekend is a real pure polyamory. My kids' art. Saturday morning.
Corey: my basement. A suit jacket
Corey: weekend is
Corey: pure polyamory. My kids' art. Saturday morning. My kids' art. Right
Corey: Right there. Look at that. That's a pretty nice picture that Ben made. Very nice. He calls it the derpy Beatles. It's the Beatles, but they're kind of derpy. What does derpy mean? Does
Zain: He
Carter: He calls
Zain: What
Carter: What
Zain: What does derpy
Carter: derpy
Carter: he know that you're putting that out to 7 million people this month? Why are the Beatles not white?
Corey: that you're putting
Corey: right. Are you coming at my 8-year-old's interpretation? No, I'm just asking the
Zain: coming at my 8
Zain: interpretation? No, I'm just asking the Hogan family, I guess, why the Beatles are not white.
Zain: I mean, really, with the music they
Carter: really, with the music they made, they can't be.
Zain: can't be.
Zain: This sounds like the
Corey: the Snow White and the Several Dwarves. Let's
Zain: the
Carter: the Several Dwarves. Let's move on.
Zain: Let's
Corey: Let's move
Zain: move on.
Corey: on.
Zain: on.
Corey: on.
Zain: on. Let's
Carter: Let's
Corey: Let's just move
Zain: Let's
Zain: move
Corey: move
Zain: move on. Okay, that's interesting. I'll pass along
Corey: Okay, that's
Carter: that's interesting.
Corey: interesting. I'll
Carter: I'll
Corey: I'll pass along to Ben. Three
Zain: Ben.
Carter: Ben. Three minutes in, we haven't gotten to the premise of the episode yet. CRT,
Zain: Three
Corey: Three minutes in,
Zain: in,
Corey: of the
Zain: the episode
Corey: episode
Zain: episode yet. CRT, that's being taught at our schools, I tell you. Okay. Corey, final one. Three of threes. Third strategy question. Melissa Lansman, the conservative critic of something, is out giving a press conference talking about Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, now the housing minister, a Toronto MP, talking
Zain: talking about his endorsement of Mark Carney, calls him a radical drug advocate, and an oppressor which seems to be on the street. People can find this video. It's much better than me explaining this to them. them so go and follow but do it anyway sure so she's giving this explanation being like hard drug advocate nathaniel erskine smith has endorsed mark carney i wonder what he got from that kind of talking to the media and then he seems to be in the wings i don't know how or why and he's like you're talking about me comes up to her and like hugs her and be like oh welcome to my writing i'll buy you a drink and she's like what did you get for endorsing mark carney's like nothing i got nothing and she's like okay what'd you get it's like i got nothing and then i
Corey: sure so she's
Carter: explanation
Corey: explanation being like
Zain: don't think it was was a moment either of them wished it was corey but like i'm not sure what that was so like the reason i'm putting it here is i was so confused in terms of how to yeah the online discourse is fuck this guy dunked on her the other thing's like what a creep like that's kind of the that's kind of like the pendulum right like how dare you touch a woman why are you hanging around other people's press conferences all the way to what a sociable interesting guy who just like undercut the conservative argument in a matter of mere seconds corey
Zain: corey from
Zain: from a strategy perspective on both of their parts what am i to make here and please watch the video rather than me having to explain this to people i
Corey: from a strategy
Corey: watch the video rather
Corey: i mean first of all those are somewhat
Corey: somewhat mutually exclusive positions to put it mildly it's a bit of a rorschach test for people right like did he do a great job or did he do a shit job did they do a great job or did they do a shit job well i i don't know i kind of feel like the whole thing was awkward to watch that was my basic feeling like i'm not sure that anybody who wasn't already a diehard partisan is going to leave it feeling great about either party Because on one hand, we're so used to the sociopathic nature of politics that it doesn't phase us when somebody walks into somebody's neighborhood and starts basically calling them borderline a murderer and a degenerate, right? And then somebody comes up and says, oh, hey, I'm not. Come here. We'll talk about it. I'll buy you a drink, right? And so on one level, the actions of Lansman are like they're just so weird when you think about it. and his reaction in some ways was like almost like a shot of normalcy but i also think if you look at it through the lens of hey she's just doing her job she's being a critic and this guy comes up and starts getting in her business and being kind of handsy it's
Carter: did
Corey: it's
Corey: it's fucking kind of weird so like it really does depend on your frame and your lens but i think generally speaking there was enough where it just like you feel uncomfortable watching because you're like i don't know who's right i don't know who's wrong it kind of feels like they're both just playing fucking games and being children i don't like this and i just i feel like the general feeling of the public's gonna be fuck
Corey: fuck this is the best we've got in both parties like jesus christ yeah carter what do you think i
Carter: think uh sins were committed by both sides i think that the the sin of the the conservatives continues to be the half truth the the the implied um you know what did you get what do you you know what what was the deal i mean they have absolutely no evidence was that the
Zain: absolutely no evidence was that the sin or was it just the aggressive hard drug advocate line like i i i wasn't sure where the center maybe there's multiple but i'm curious in your mind where it was the
Carter: but i'm curious in your mind where it was the i think that the whole fucking thing that the conservatives are up to right now they
Carter: they they don't tell they
Carter: they don't tell small lies about their opponents they tell big lies about their opponents and
Carter: and that's
Carter: that's a problem that's the sin that's what i'm trying to get across is their sin but
Carter: but then you know nate comes into the picture and uh the sin he commits which
Corey: then
Zain: then you know
Zain: he commits which
Carter: which you know what i'm fine with you
Carter: stand up to to those who are saying how you know falsehoods about you i am a big fan of that but
Carter: but then he puts hands on her and
Carter: i don't care if you're being friendly i don't care if uh it
Carter: it it it looks like you are trying to intimidate whenever anytime you put hands on someone and that's the sin that he committed so i can see how both sides are taking this um you
Carter: you know you know and seeing their own their own narrative because the sins are being committed on both sides this is a this was a stupid thing for nader skin smith to do it was a stupid thing for michelle for lansman to do michelle lansman from i think michelle rempel garden melissa um it was a mistake it was huge and one
Corey: michelle
Corey: um
Carter: of them could have come across as the true winner in this if they just played it a little bit differently oh
Zain: oh let's this goes to the optimization who
Zain: who how and how and who carter how could have changed their behavior with this interaction still happening to come out the winner and and who would have been the natural winner in this situation for you who would you have picked between the two characters that are involved or the two people involved i should say i
Carter: i think that nate erskine smith has some unique points of view on drug consumption that would have been really strong i think that it was there was a uh that there's an opportunity to to make that a wedge issue um to make mark carney answer for nate's position i think would be a very strong action and i think if nate erskine smith simply comes in smiling and says you know what melissa we could have had a we could have had this discussion over a beer instead of maybe we should take this to a pub right now we'll i'll pay for the media let's go have a drink and we'll sort this out right
Carter: right i I think that both of them could have very easily
Carter: easily solved the problem.
Carter: But instead, we have each
Carter: each
Carter: one of them just kind of doubling down and really
Carter: really making a mess of a perfectly
Carter: perfectly good Sunday afternoon.
Zain: I like Carter's optimization. Corey, do you have one for me on this scenario, on this situation? You don't have to choose Nate as your character to go to. You may want to choose the other side, but you can. It's your choice.
Corey: go to.
Corey: Yeah, well, he picked Nate, so I'll pick Lanceman. i i think that if you had assumed that he had done exactly what carter proposed which is the obvious optimization they're like don't keep your fucking hands off her right like just show up do the rest of this stuff but don't get so chummy that it looks weird right um i
Zain: right like just show
Corey: i probably if i were her if he's like let's have a beer you know i would you just say like i
Corey: i try to keep better company and you're being exactly the example of why i think it is absolutely ridiculous that mark carney's decided to accept your endorsement and i would have turned like that into that without like you know i think just a little bit of a different tone and keeping the cool a little bit and and then pivoting it back to that main uh point probably
Corey: would have been fine as we talk this out though i actually think that she's probably like you know in this rorschach test i think that she's probably done less her acts were less egregious than his i've decided as we've talked so interesting yeah
Zain: i've decided as we've talked so interesting yeah
Corey: yeah really
Zain: really her acts were less egregious than his because she was what i i do why because she was doing a standard partisan standard it was
Corey: acts
Corey: standard it was just like normal politics versus
Zain: normal politics
Corey: versus
Zain: versus basically versus him who was trying to break the norm and and went too far is that like a fair assessment of what you're trying to say yeah
Corey: him who
Corey: yeah well and i think it's really it's like the minute he went up and he you know he started like grabbing her shoulders or whatever
Zain: whatever there carter's
Corey: carter's right about the intimidation component i also think i often will try to put this into like a workplace setting like even if i thought somebody was being a real jerk and out of line at work if the other person came up is like hey let's just talk this out and like grab their arms around it i mean hr would be fucking involved so i think uh that's where i land has he convinced you carter no
Zain: i also
Carter: has he convinced
Carter: i mean i just think that uh both of them did bad things and both of them should be shot at dawn
Corey: tough but fair steve that's a that's a tough but that's one way to optimize uh
Carter: steve that's
Zain: uh we're moving on to our next segment steven carter that was a tight oh hey that was a tight 10 real
Corey: on to our
Corey: hey that
Corey: tight 10 real good work Your
Zain: work Your time
Carter: Your time
Carter: time management is amazing.
Zain: time management
Zain: Listen, I give folks a lot of value, okay? I give
Carter: give folks a lot of value
Zain: give folks a lot of value on the show. You get like 25 minutes of content in 10 minutes. We have got a set field in the liberal leadership race. I've promised the audience for a while now an episode on the brands of
Carter: on the show. You get like 25 minutes of content in 10 minutes. We
Zain: the various candidates that are running and their teams, Carter, that have set up these brands. However,
Zain: before we jump into it and start saying what we like and what we don't like, I think it's worthwhile to maybe spend, and I'm going to use this number again, 10 minutes, to assess
Zain: what
Corey: what
Zain: we should assess as a modern brand, Corey, because I think it's actually a fair question, right? I think that piece has evolved from just simply what the website looks like and
Carter: simply what
Zain: and what the logo looks like to other elements, things that we may not see, what the emails look like, what the ad library might look like, what the social accounts look like, what the grid looks like on IG, how they're doing – and in addition to the website and how well it converts and all those sort of things. So give me your thoughts on this. I'm kind of putting it out in the broadest sense with a few examples, but in your mind, as someone who works in communications and as someone who's worked in politics, what are the things we should be assessing in a modern political brand?
Corey: Yeah, well, first of all, we are saying brand, but I just want to be clear, brand is ultimately the end result. It's what people think of you. It's how you come off. Yes. What you've listed there is largely identity. Those are components of a visual identity, written identity, the words you use. And that's the kind of stuff a campaign has control over, but ultimately you judge its success or not based on what your brand is. So the brand is the outcome. The brand is not the action. Love it. And I think that's important to keep in mind, especially as we go into some of these candidates, and maybe I'll keep my powder dry on that. But a lot of these folks have a brand coming in. We already think things about them, which means the identity that they're presenting, visual, words, all of that, it
Zain: Yes. What
Zain: Those are components
Corey: it pings off that in a different way. It pings off the times we're in a different way. And when we talk about brand, I
Corey: I guess the point I want to make right now is it's
Corey: it's the combination of the identity, the audience, the times, the context, right? And so you've got to weigh it all. And what might have been a killer, quote unquote, brand, a visual identity 10 years ago, even
Corey: if it's not that the style has changed, that same style might just be totally out of tune with
Zain: with
Zain: with what
Corey: with what we're looking for right now. And the
Zain: the audience piece could even make it out of tune with not even a dated 10
Zain: 10 years ago, but also the moment. Like you're missing the moment in a sense, even if you think you're hitting the moment sort of thing.
Corey: you're missing the moment
Corey: you're hitting the moment
Corey: Absolutely. And like on our strategist discord, which, you know, pay your six bucks, get in there, gang. We created almost a, well, not almost, we created a fake creative brief for the Carney brand, like the Carney visual identity when it went down. And we went through all of the topics and even just writing it out. uh one of the things that occurred to me is you're creating a brand for a leadership campaign but it's also got to be the start of your brand for the general election which in extension has got to be the brand for the liberals in the cycle so
Corey: so audience is a little bit polluted right now too right you're not just talking about a narrow liberal voting audience you're talking about yeah the
Zain: you're talking about yeah the
Corey: the general public potentially down the road too because you got no time like you got no time to sit there and say we're going to retool everything eight months from now it's got to to be the foundation of whatever your general that's so interesting and and
Zain: general that's so interesting and and not to keep my powder dry carton i'll get you a take on this but like that could have massive implications let's say freeland is elected her brand extremely distinct right with the with the red everywhere and we could talk about it right and what implications will that have on the overall liberal brand so it's an interesting point we've talked about the the politics like all three of us in various forums including this one have talked about the politics of being able to run a race literally within seconds of winning this one but then that's also got this this this tie tie-in as as folks on the discord and you point out cory to how you present yourself today having implications on how you present yourself in as pierre polly of would note 43 days uh
Carter: also got
Corey: uh
Zain: uh well sort of yeah and you almost have to work backwards
Corey: well sort
Corey: yeah and you almost have to work backwards
Zain: backwards right like
Corey: right like so what's the brand i need then what's the brand i need now how do i bridge between them where do i put like the give and like what's the what's the shift got to be and when's the shift going to happen should i be successful and the risk always when you're dealing with two audiences is if you create a product that's good for both it's probably optimal for neither and that's a real challenge i think and and so what you generally will see in
Corey: in these things is the person who thinks they're going to win is
Corey: is going to have their eyes furthest down the field like okay well i don't i don't want to win just to lose or at least lose big or go to go down in flames the way trudeau looked like he was going to i want to i want to win win and if you are somebody who thinks this is a fucking hail mary i don't know i've got almost zero percent chance if rounding up i've got zero percent chance of winning this fucking thing then your brand is going to be all focused on that first contest because why not like like are you really going to waste your time dealing with the the brand down the road and so i think that the way they present themselves also tells us a lot about how they think about themselves and i would argue based on that rubric there are two candidates who actually think they can win and that's freeland and carney and everybody else is is they're
Zain: like okay well
Corey: playing for the part and they're not they're trying
Zain: trying to get their brand to lift them up a bit or to make it uniquely distinct enough so that they punch through? Is that fair to say? Well, yes, kind
Corey: Well, yes, kind
Corey: kind of are, but you've brought up a really interesting point. Yeah, and I'll let Carter get in here. Yeah,
Zain: Yeah, and I'll let Carter get in here. Yeah, but this is good. Well, I'll just say, final point.
Zain: For
Corey: For a lot of them, it's about their brand and what they're going to be able to do down the road once they've elevated themselves. That's exactly right. And so are they elevating who they are? And I think Karina Gold is a perfect example of this. She is presenting herself as a fresh, young, new face. that's the way she's doing it has value win or lose right the way freeland is presenting herself only
Zain: road once they've
Zain: That's
Corey: only has value if she wins right
Zain: right
Zain: right
Carter: right interesting
Zain: interesting carter cory's
Zain: cory's thrown some interesting things on the table including what brand is brand is the output and outcome it's not something you can assess on the front end this is what i'm talking about and rightfully so to cory's point is more visual identity or broader identity including the words etc so what the pieces we should be assessing today we can continue to have that discussion if you've got any thoughts on those in terms of which pieces you find most important like even like tactically like i like like for example like the hero image means a lot to me like i'd love to hear that sort of thing um because we will get deeper into this but your thoughts on on what should matter in a 2025 brand analysis well
Carter: i think that everything begins with the audience um who is it that you're trying to change who is it you're trying to impact what do they what do we want them to remember about us
Carter: And I think that, you
Carter: you know, the two leading candidates, be the Kearney and Freeland,
Carter: I'd agree with the assessment that Corey's made that the other brands tell us that they're just
Carter: just simply trying to compete.
Carter: Those two are telling us a very different story about themselves, a
Carter: very different story about what the challenges are that they're faced with.
Carter: You know, and I don't want to get ahead of myself and start saying, well, this is what the brand is and this is how the brand is being interpreted. But both
Carter: both of them are telling a story to Canadians in general, not
Carter: not just to Liberal members, the 250,000, 300,000 people who will sign up, but
Carter: but a much, much broader conversation.
Carter: conversation. And not only that, they're
Carter: they're both trying to put a spin on
Carter: on the past, right?
Carter: right? Right. Mark Carney's launch, for example, very
Carter: very much definitive of the overarching brand,
Carter: the choice of doing it in
Carter: in a small
Carter: small community hall when
Carter: when it was very easily he could have filled a much larger room.
Carter: But that small community hall was a choice. That
Carter: That was something that took the brand in
Carter: in the direction that the campaign
Carter: campaign actually wanted to go. And
Carter: we saw from Freeland's campaign launch that
Carter: that she was denied that, mostly
Carter: mostly by protesters, but
Carter: but also in part by her own campaign and
Carter: her own campaign choices.
Carter: So the
Carter: the brand structure is,
Carter: is, you know, this really emphasizes that you control the input. You
Carter: You don't necessarily control the output of how the brand is perceived and received. I think it's a great point.
Zain: the brand is perceived
Zain: I think it's a great point.
Carter: Emphasize that for young Corey. Great
Zain: Emphasize that
Zain: Great point by both of you. Corey, round us out with any thoughts, and then I want to go through each. We'll start with the top two, and then we'll go down the line.
Corey: So what Carter said about Carney's launch is super important, because you can look at various launch techniques, and you can say, well, does a big event make sense? Does a small event make sense? Does streaming make sense? Does not make sense? And a lot of the time, you'll argue the pros and cons, merits of those things. But anyone who's worked with me knows I've got a bit of a shorthand for this, which is brand answers all questions. if you work backwards from how you want to present yourself those things resolve relatively quickly and relatively easily so i'd be curious to hear steven the conversation that might have occurred in the carny campaign so much as you can provide it but that to me and you don't always get it right like right sometimes you fuck it up but like that to me is like well who are we trying to be well then of course this is how we have to launch right and uh when i see the carny launch video video and how it started with the graphics of you know i was born here and then i lived in edmonton and then a lot of his canadian origin story is in
Carter: argue the pros
Corey: edmonton you know i i played for this team i went to this high school and then i got a scholarship to go play hockey here and by the way what a flex just to show him in like his hockey gear at harvard not mentioning he went to harvard just you know he's a hockey player at harvard i guess we could figure out the rest right in
Zain: harvard i guess we could figure out the rest right in the middle yeah of that crimson color jersey oh i'm sorry it was
Corey: yeah of that crimson
Corey: i'm sorry it was
Corey: was
Zain: was a school just outside of boston it
Corey: it was just it was an ncaa school don't worry oh my god yeah close
Zain: it was just
Zain: god yeah close to somerville if you know the area
Zain: all
Corey: all great my point is this like
Corey: like it's clear what they're trying to do what you're trying to do i guess because i'm i don't know what credit you don't deserve shit for probably brayden is trying to do and the smart people around brayden what they're trying to do is create this sense of And just so people know, Braden's
Zain: probably brayden is trying
Zain: just so people know, Braden's the guy with the title of campaign manager. That's
Corey: That's right.
Corey: When your campaign slogan is, it's time to build, and your story becomes about how you built yourself and what built you,
Corey: great,
Corey: right?
Carter: That idea and the idea of emphasizing the hockey, the Edmonton, and the Laurier Heights, that all came from Carney.
Carter: We were trying to find the right location.
Corey: That's the right answer. You should have done that with the Sheehal. I'm learning. i'm
Carter: I'm learning. i'm learning and it all came from carney because he he was
Carter: was the one who really wanted to make it about uh hockey and his his absolute passion for hockey like it's not put on some
Carter: some people i think put put on their passion for hockey uh his is not it is a legitimate passion and to be in edmonton and to launch in edmonton made a lot of sense for him because
Zain: is not
Carter: because of the childhood but also because of who you know how he perceives his own growth so
Carter: so the
Carter: the brand structure um was
Carter: rooted in reality and i think that that's one of the best brand structures you can you can you can build like
Carter: like when you when you're actually building a brand that
Carter: that is true that
Carter: that is built off of the truth of it and
Carter: and i think that freeland also has this when we get to talking about hers i think that she is um
Carter: um talking about the exact same, like she has developed a brand that is as true to her as this Mark Carney, it's time to build is true to him. And
Carter: And both of them can be quite proud of their brands as they're unfolding.
Zain: Okay, let's let's jump into this. I think that that's that's enough on the table in terms of what we need to assess our brand. We'll start with the websites. And because they do while they are not inclusive of everything that is a visual identity or an an identity, or an outcome of a brand, I think they house a lot of the items, including photos, the language, the overall sort of taglines Carter talked, and Corey, you've both talked about the Carney one. Let's start with Krista Freeland. She's
Zain: She's at kristafreeland.ca is where her campaign's at. She's leaning heavily on the last name. People can look this up. That's better than me explaining any of it. So I won't. I won't explain any of it other than turning it over to you guys if you want to talk about it. Let's start with this. What did you like? What did you not like? And where did this overall kind of land with you? So plus minus delta, right? Plus minuses delta. Corey, can I start with you on Krista Freeland? Give me your plus minus delta on her.
Corey: Well, the plus is the word. She obviously is most comfortable when she's dealing with the written word and she's telling a story. And I think that makes perfect sense. That's her background. That's who she is. And I really do believe she has a good sense of what she wants to do however i'm going to give you a couple of minuses here and unfortunately they do somewhat stack together uh one minus is that like the polish of her uh her visual identity here and i think it is such a fascinating example to me about graphic design and how there is such a fine line between stellar graphic design and bad graphic design and i think unfortunately for her she's on the bad side you're not typically you're not
Zain: typically you're not saying good and bad you're saying stellar like like oh this is stellar interesting like historic and bad that's
Corey: stellar interesting
Corey: interesting like
Zain: that's
Corey: that's
Zain: that's
Corey: that's right and so she is clearly the one who's got the most unique like like you know what she's going for and it's quite unique and it's got a certain like uh almost like a explainer video now this like the kind of the overlays that she's doing free land
Zain: and so she
Zain: overlays that she's doing free land
Corey: land yeah
Zain: yeah but
Corey: but the font size not quite right the font weight not quite right the way the maple leaf and the a is there just it's just not quite right and in a kerning not quite Right. Everything's not quite right. And it's a great example about how I think if I don't know, I don't want to denigrate anybody who's did it. And obviously, everyone's doing this under absurdly short timelines. Yeah.
Zain: Yeah. But
Corey: But I think either another two weeks or another two professionals in the room, they could have made that sing. They could have figured it out. And they could have made it sing. Their concept is so good. But the execution is so middling. And as a result, unfortunately, you don't get the concept score.
Corey: The concept almost plays against you unless you can land the concept. And so that's why people do tend to take it safe on design. And you can say to her credit, she didn't take it safe, but I'd say to her detriment, she didn't deliver on it. It's also by far the sloppiest of the pages on some technical components. It was driving me up the fucking wall today when I was looking at it, and she's got all of these buttons at the top. And with
Zain: with
Corey: with any luck, it'll be fixed by the time you good viewers are looking at it. But as you mouse over, hover over them, it's changing the weight around it. And there's like a one pixel difference. So this bar is just like shivering. It's just moving one pixel at a time. I see exactly what you're talking
Zain: pixel at a time. I see exactly what you're talking about. as you're
Corey: as you're doing it come
Corey: on man it's 2025 we should be able to figure out basic css at this point and they didn't and so again it just creates a sense of rather than like
Corey: here's the thing you can go for that super minimalist super polished super slick super like posh thing that she was going for but the minute shit like that starts happening it's gone it's over it's done so that's that's one of them that's an
Zain: of them that's an interesting point because she is going for like a real rich and
Zain: i don't mean that like in a wealth sense but like a real rich like depth like the the comparison i've jokingly sent to you guys and i think it floats online too is the current king charles portrait
Carter: right
Zain: right like king charles and like it's like a very rich royal textured sort of thing and you could see what she's going for but can i ask a clarifying question to you cory before i jump over to uh to carter um because i do want to get both of your deltas too in terms of what you change when you you say really
Zain: really like the concept can i be clear is that the free land concept is that the red is that the what is what do you mean can you clarify that for me so
Corey: so i do i mean the visual identity specifically what i'm saying i really like the concept because the one other thing i want to put and maybe carter will expand so i'm not going to dwell on it is the
Zain: saying i really like
Corey: other minus i give her is the story right but but just to wrap off like the visual identity i do want to say it is a great concept and if she were to win and if there were like an army of party designers and external designers working on it you
Corey: could do something you could do something really good with that with this with what she's put out this is not it this is not it and
Zain: put out this is not it
Zain: and you know i i think your point around the fact that you know people have had to release their drafts is
Zain: is a good one right like people have had to release v1s and v2s is a good one i'm not making excuses for anyone but i think it's it's fair given the timelines in some ways well
Corey: had to release
Corey: well sure and carney had to like drop his logo because it's the same as a as a fucking uh like collections agency so oops but i will say that the others drafts are in my estimation stronger like they did but they played it safer so i mean you know judge accordingly i judge negatively because outcome matters carter plus
Zain: because it's the same as a
Zain: plus minus delta what do you like what
Zain: what do you not like and then we'll do uh the the changes together what would you change how would you make it stronger let's
Carter: begin by saying there's nothing easier in the the world than to pick on someone else's creative um
Carter: um so i don't want to come across like i'm just picking on creative i'll leave that to cory uh i don't disagree with his freeland um comments i don't i think
Corey: think be fair literally what i do for a living i know i'm not i'm just saying there's
Carter: i know
Zain: know i'm not i'm just saying there's
Carter: there's nothing
Zain: there's
Zain: nothing
Carter: nothing do neither of you like
Zain: like
Carter: like that's why you do it can
Zain: that's why you do it can
Zain: can i can i
Carter: i address
Zain: address
Carter: address
Zain: address
Carter: address that
Zain: that no i don't either of you like free land why i like talk to me about
Corey: no i don't
Carter: don't either
Corey: either
Carter: i like talk to me
Carter: about
Zain: about that
Carter: that i like freeland and
Carter: and i'm gonna i'm gonna put into the context in which I like it. I don't like the design. I
Carter: really don't like the font choice. There's a number of choices that were made in the Freeland design that
Carter: I don't like.
Carter: And Corey, I think kind of, he
Carter: he said it better than I'm going to say it. So I'm just going to leave that with him.
Carter: What I'm going to talk about is the literal wrapping in the Canadian flag and
Carter: and the red that is the Liberals. And
Carter: And everything that she has done now
Carter: now looks like you are looking at it through a Canadian flag.
Carter: You are looking at the free land through
Carter: through a Canadian flag. You're talking about our
Carter: our land strong and free. You're looking at it from
Carter: from this nationalist
Carter: nationalist point
Carter: point of view at a time when our nation is literally under threat.
Zain: time when our nation
Carter: The ballot box
Zain: The ballot box question, I think, is an interesting point there, right? She's the clearest on Trump, Canada, I'm Canada. I get what you're trying to to say well and
Carter: right? She's the
Carter: well and she is saying i am the liberal party right
Zain: and
Carter: right justin trudeau was not the liberal party he does not own this liberal party mark carney does not own this liberal party i own the brand of the liberal party and the wrapping herself in the red while i i am not necessarily a big fan of it i you know it's not about whether or not i'm a fan of the brand it's about whether or not the brand has got a clear statement that is being made and i think that the statement that is being made between the free land the
Carter: the
Carter: the wrapping in the in the in the in the in the colors of the nation in the colors of the liberal party it
Carter: it does remind me of the king charles portrait it does make me wonder how much of this was emphasized and yeah i don't think it's a great idea that you necessarily put your picture and you look like the devil personally but
Zain: make
Carter: but yeah i see where they were going and the direction that they were going is very clear to me this i am the the liberal party i am wrapped in the flag of canada and
Carter: and this is and i'm not going to be ashamed of it and
Carter: i'm i'm super impressed by that direction i think that they could have had a lot more stuff on the website um you
Carter: you know it could have been a lot more detail that could have given us more um and
Carter: i don't like the you know like the video just being kind of embedded from youtube is kind kind of uh
Carter: you know 15 years ago too like it it it doesn't look like it's polished the same way that i would like it to be polished so i'll leave it at that because
Carter: because i don't want to come across like i'm being some sort of uh
Carter: uh critic critic i
Carter: do see where she was going and i like where she was going i
Carter: i like the brand story that she wanted to tell cory
Zain: what do you what do you think in here
Corey: here well
Zain: well
Carter: well
Corey: you asked about the freeland thing
Zain: thing yeah i want to get your comment on that that's sorry that's what i meant in particular well
Corey: yeah i want to get your comment
Corey: one of my big concerns with it and this is going to sound really small and and maybe even petty but the way she presents her name is not how anybody says her name and and there's just something about that that actually challenges me right and to me it says almost like you're trying too hard i feel like it would have been a much stronger creative concept if it had been more subtle like it's just it's like just too much you know there's just like sometimes you can go too far with an idea and you're trying to shoehorn the idea and it's yeah of course like what a happy coincidence your name is free land at a time when we're talking about defending ourselves from the united states that that must have felt like such a fucking gift and in a way it was but it's
Zain: way it was
Corey: it's it's like gilding the lily right it's it's just a little too much it reminds me a lot of um a story about when they were creating the original macintosh and anybody who had a macintosh in the 80s or 90s will remember there was like the closed apple and the open apple button that was on like your apple 2 or whatever and this little thing that looks like uh i don't even know what you call it like the box with the nubs around it that's on the command button on a modern mac that symbol didn't exist at the time and steve jobs there's a story about him losing his mind because he's looking at a menu in this mac because this is a this is the first time there's like drop down menus right and it's just showing the hot keys for all of this stuff and every single one of them has an apple logo either a closed apple or an open load apple and he says you're denigrating the logo you're using the logo too much you're just saturating it's starting to mean nothing like you you've got to put more reverence on the logo and so then they They went and they found the command logo and the rest is history. But the point is what he was saying about the logo. Like the minute you're taking like your name and you're trying to distort it to do all of these other things, there's risk. And you're just you're just you're trying a little too hard there. And I know that might sound out
Corey: there, but it's you know, I think it's a challenge when you start fucking with your core brand. Yeah,
Carter: Yeah, but this is this is you saying again, you know, she's trying too hard. It was it goes too far. It doesn't quite get there. It doesn't quite hit.
Carter: All of this is true, right?
Carter: right? Right. Like she
Carter: she but she chose a direction.
Carter: She chose something significant to try and achieve. And
Carter: And she went all the way there. She
Carter: She just fell
Carter: fell a little bit short on the final execution, given
Carter: given that this was all implemented within, you
Carter: you know, seven days. Yeah, I'm
Corey: Yeah, I'm
Carter: I'm still super impressed that they went as far as they did and they reached as hard as they did. You're
Corey: now I think you're being too charitable, because at the end of the day, they
Corey: they have a campaign to run, and they knew the parameters of it being seven days, right. And at a certain point, there is a conversation about risk that needs to occur where it's like, hey, we can play it safe. And we can deliver that. Or we can swing for the fences. And we can fuck that up. And, you
Carter: And, you
Corey: you know, I'm not sure that I would say they fucked it up. they didn't land
Carter: they didn't land
Corey: land it it's mediocre i would say of the big you know the big three websites i'm only going to count carney freeland and gold it's the worst of the three and it's it's not the least ambitious it's the most ambitious it
Corey: it could it has the concept that could be the best but it's the worst of the three okay
Zain: okay i'm gonna i'm gonna ask a few pointed questions on these just to kind of make sure i get your opinion um the image that she uses so like i know it's wrapped in red what What do you kind of think of that hero image? It's on every single – so if you go to Party Renewal Plan or other than that one, I guess, Donate, Volunteer, you see that image kind of underneath of Krista. Thoughts on like the portrait style image singular of Krista Freeland versus what you see with other candidates, people around them, more sort of surrounded by everyday folks from a launch, et cetera. i'm kind of curious on your on your take with freeland right at the heart and the center of it not necessarily surrounded by by by people almost like a like a intense portrait shot there any
Zain: any thoughts well
Corey: just that it's part of the this is an example of how she tried to answer the story with brand right she uh by the way carter it's so funny that you're on the website and your face is more red because all of the red of the website is reflecting back on you right now um and he likes that like that's the positive for carter he's yeah but no it's and it's fine but like it
Zain: right she
Corey: it is uh i
Corey: lost my point entirely what the hell was i talking about the portrait photo the portrait
Zain: about the portrait photo the portrait photo any any thoughts on that and it's and it's use case versus uh having folks around her or anything like her in community or humanizing her in that way that political campaigns often think about and do no
Corey: i think that it's fine it was a choice it it goes to the idea that you are trying to stand alone and that you're strong and that's the point that i was trying to make that i i lost that it's all consistent with brand she's telling the brand story that's all well and good that's fine she's showing that she's the person who can stand up and she can stand tough and and part of that sometimes means standing alone visually like i get all that like it all kind of works i don't have a problem with that i think that's one of the cleaner parts of the implementation but this
Corey: is one of my when i said the minus part of it is the story like i worry that
Corey: that that she has not quite calibrated her story you know i think that the story is a little bit too
Zain: you know i
Corey: too much about how how she's going to fight and be tough. And I think that Canadians want a path forward, for sure. Canadians want to defend their country, for sure. But I think that all that's present for me in a lot of the material on that website, and even her speech, is the fight. And I don't think that's enough. And I don't think at the end of the day, Canadians say the
Corey: the biggest
Corey: biggest pricks, the biggest fighters are the liberals. Nobody's saying that, right? You have to be very careful that you're not presenting a question where the obvious answer is the other guy. And I think if If you're actually looking for somebody who's going to fight, Pierre
Corey: Pierre Polyev is the more obvious answer there. So you've got to find a different framing of that defend and that construct argument than
Corey: than Chrystia Freeland is currently at.
Carter: That's where I thought she got there with the wrapping and the Canadian flag. I think that she's closer than you think she is.
Zain: Yeah, so Carter's already thrown down this constructive sort of delta for her. Anything you want to add, Corey, to constructive changes that you would suggest for Freeland? You've talked everything about the font, the weighting, the currenting, all that sort of stuff. You can address anything specific or you can address something much broader in terms of constructive changes.
Corey: or you can address something
Corey: Yeah, I mean, clean it up. That's the obvious one from the visual identity point of view. In terms of story, I think you need to think about Chapter 2 in your story. Chapter 1 is I stand up. Chapter
Corey: Chapter 2 is what do you do when you stand up? And I do actually believe that Chrystia Freeland's pretty deficient in that one right now. And I think part of it is because she
Corey: she was fighting in December. She's fighting now against Trump. up you know fight is what she's got fight
Corey: fight is what brought her here she
Corey: needs to move past that in her own storytelling let's
Zain: let's move to mark carney uh mark carney.ca cory can i start with you again on on the carney campaign so we've got a a website that looks very different um maybe i'll let folks look at it so that they can interpret what i mean by that and of course can as compared to the freeland website not very different in terms of like a um an absolute on absolute terms cory plus Plus minus delta. Start with what you like, what you don't like, and then we'll get into constructive changes together. So
Corey: again, if you go to brand and you think about the story that he wants to tell, that's part of it. But I mentioned earlier, you also bring your brand into it. And he's a banker, right? He's a staid finance guy who has helped save two different economies at two different times. He's a professional. And his website by far is the most staid of the websites, again, of the big three I'm talking about here, is the most traditional of the websites it's everything that a website for a leadership candidate is supposed to be and it's fairly well executed minus that logo snafu that we already talked they've changed
Zain: talked they've changed that to a different way which
Corey: which they've changed to a different logo exactly right it's professional it's polished it launched with you know all of the websites are threadbare but it launched with enough content it told the story it basically was the the flat version of the video that came out So it's well done. It's crisp. It's responsive. It has the things that you need on a website like that.
Corey: I think that's the point, right? Like he is basically saying, I'm going to be the adult. I'm going to be the professional who comes in. And I'm going to just professionally manage things. And I'm going to do it with positivity. And yeah, there's some quirky sides of me. And you know, I'm like,
Corey: I think I mentioned on another show, like I'm the banker who's the neighbor who you'd like love to go over and hang out with. Like, he's just a super nice neighbor and super erudite and has these things, but also can talk to you for 40 minutes about, you know, the draft picks that the Oilers are looking at three years out or something like that, right? I think it does exactly what it's trying to do, and I think it does a pretty good job of being what he needs it to be because of the brand he's trying to present.
Corey: I will say, however, that's a lower bar when your brand is to be boring, and it's not really his brand, and I think Carter would probably take exception to that. Well, Carter's
Zain: to that. Well, Carter's actually almost indicated as such at the top of the show. It's not to be innovative, per se. It's just to power through. But if your brand
Corey: if your brand is just to be professional and polished, mission
Corey: accomplished. You don't need to do crazy swings. In fact, if you took the exact same Christian Freeland approach and you executed it perfectly for Mark Carney, it would be a cacophony. It would be dissonant. It's like, who the fuck is this guy versus this brand? It doesn't make any sense, right? So, again, when you think about audience and all of that and the brand that they bring into it, that matters. The negative that I give it, I don't know. I mean, like, it's hard to give it too much of a negative because it does exactly what you want it to do. Can I throw one at you, potentially? Yeah, go for it. Way too many calls to action, or am I wrong about that? When you go to this front...
Zain: I throw one at you,
Zain: When you go to this front...
Corey: No, you're 100% right. I was trying to limit more to, like, the visual... Sorry, yeah, yeah, but I'm getting right
Zain: visual... Sorry, yeah, yeah, but I'm getting right into the web aspect of it. We can address... Go where you're going, and then I'll take my point, and I'll carve it out. Because
Corey: it. We can address...
Corey: it out. Because the other thing, the point that I had, but I thought was maybe not brand related, but I certainly think all of the candidates do poorly, but it's almost inexcusable that Carney did it poorly, was like, how is there not just a big sucking funnel taking you to register to be a liberal? like it's gotten a little bit better i think over the past couple days but uh yeah it's um the website was not really like it had to your point there's i think there's four ctas right at the top and then there's additional reiterations of it all the way through the particular thing no i think that my bigger problem with the brand is that like the story feels like it's
Zain: but I
Corey: only part of the story like there doesn't seem to be a lot of wraparound content because even the others like Like, you can point to their various social channels, and Mark Carney just doesn't quite have that same feel right now. And I think that he needs it more because he hasn't been in politics more. So if you're Chrystia Freeland, if you're Corinna Gold, you can get away with
Zain: with a little
Corey: with a little bit less content. That's interesting.
Zain: He doesn't. So can I address that point for a second before I come to you, Carter, on Carney's website and his brand and any insider tales you may want to tell us associated with that? that. Corey, you know, is there a case to be made that Carney's kind of like running the banker, former central banker, like the vibe he's running is a bit more premium? I'm going to use that term because I don't have the right one. And
Zain: that I actually want to add more friction. I don't want to be too accessible. Like I don't want to be like doing, I'm not, TikTok dances are on one end of the spectrum, but you get what I'm trying to say. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Like I actually want to to be buttoned down all the way through i don't want to actually have you get to know me beyond what i want to put out there because that's kind of what i'm trying to do i'm going to wear the same sort of thing every time very rarely you're going to see me hanging beyond you know the collar and the sweater is probably the most casual like i wonder if there's something to be said about that carter may have an inside track being like these fucking idiots don't know the hell they're talking about but i'm going to posit that as a hypothesis back to you to react to well
Corey: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Like I actually
Corey: well i definitely you you know, I don't think premium is the word, but that goes back to my professional and polished, right? And I think that in part, that is the contrast with Justin Trudeau, who was seen as obsessed with social media. So Carney not having it maybe is a conscious choice too, or maybe not leaning into it as hard. He has social media, but not leaning into it as hard. I know there were some conservatives say, oh, he doesn't have a YouTube channel. Who fucking cares, right? Like, that's pretty easy to, I mean, we have a YouTube channel. You can watch this right now on a YouTube channel right but um the uh the interesting thing that he has to contend with is if
Corey: if you're freeland if you're gold there's a lot of content as to where you stand on various things yes it's always been kind of the party positions but you
Corey: you know you start to put out like the planks about how you would deal with like and both of them have actually put out plans for the party itself
Zain: of them have actually put out
Corey: carney because he's coming from outside because we don't really know what he stands for I think that the brand would have been served by having a little bit more on policy. And I don't mean a 30-page paper. I mean a one-line, I'm going to get rid of the carbon tax and I'm going to do something else. And I can understand maybe
Carter: And I can
Corey: why they might want to hold that in reserve and maybe that's all coming. But you've
Corey: you've
Zain: you've basically asked
Corey: basically asked me to come up with a minus. And I don't have a ton of minus, but that would be my one critique. Carter,
Zain: but that
Zain: Carter, plus minus delta. delta it's it's it's it's a bit unfair to ask you this but i'm curious to see where your head's at and frankly correct any misconceptions cory and i may have if if you can uh around the uh impulse to do certain things that that that cory
Zain: cory suggested at the very least
Carter: number one calls to action are
Carter: are everywhere and that's what what should be that is the you never have
Corey: the you never have enough you can never have a car right this
Carter: never have a car right this is this is what happens um in a political campaign now this this higher ux You need to meet Mark,
Zain: higher ux You need to meet Mark, get to know Mark. I've already known Mark. I'll tell you, though. So that you can actually... And then Zane knows Mark Button. Can you add a Zane knows Mark Button onto the website? So that people can have that choice. This
Carter: get to know Mark.
Corey: Mark.
Carter: you, though. So that you can actually...
Carter: And then Zane
Corey: a
Carter: a Zane knows
Carter: So that people can have that choice.
Carter: This is a very professional website. It does what it's supposed to achieve.
Carter: It tells us a story. However, there is one glaring weakness. And I'm actually surprised that Corey didn't pick up on it. and that is that the story that is being told in this website is miss is missing a giant chunk of the story that's being told about the brand in general the brand in general the best thing that they have is the is the video and
Carter: the video is not here you
Zain: i don't see that are you talking about just so i listen you're right and i'm clear right are you talking about the newest video that they've done or like the daily it's not on the website no
Carter: you're right and i'm clear right are you talking about
Carter: or like the daily it's not on
Corey: on the
Carter: no no the the one that um the one the the video that starts off with the Daily Show clips and then goes into his history as a hockey player, the one that you guys were referencing earlier with the big H on the jersey.
Carter: That video is money in the bank.
Carter: It tells a story about who Mark Carney is, and it really defines the brand in
Carter: in a way that this website does not.
Carter: And this website, while it is good, while it is functional, while it does the job that it's supposed to do, it
Carter: it isn't doing the job of establishing the brand in the same fashion that the video is. Why is it not there, Carter? Why
Zain: Why is it not there, Carter? Why is it not there?
Carter: there?
Zain: I'm not asking, like, be responsible for it. Why do you think it's not there? Because you're also the same guy who made the comment. You're also the same guy who made the comment that embedding YouTube is like a 15-year-old exercise, which is what Freeland's done. So I'm curious what you're like. To me, I almost thought of you saying that about her as a rationale for why you don't have yours on your website. You gotta have
Carter: I'm not asking,
Carter: made the comment.
Carter: which is what Freeland's
Carter: yours on your website. You gotta have the video, or you just gotta make it look like, you know, you don't wanna watch the next video is you know whatever you're streaming right like you don't want it to pop up with now watch the next video on your streaming application you know this is great for
Zain: this is great for that if folks ever wonder you can yeah but the point
Carter: ever wonder you can yeah
Carter: the point of the exercise should be to put up a video on this and why it's there i
Carter: i think it's just a factor of not
Carter: not wanting to make too many changes to
Carter: to a website that's doing doing one job and
Carter: that one job is supposed to be registering liberals um
Carter: um we could debate whether it's doing that job well enough um but i suspect that most of the liberals that have been registered have actually been registered through the liberal party's own
Carter: own portal i know that that's where where things seem to be not not through the
Zain: that's
Zain: to be not not through the front door of the campaign so to speak which is what every campaign is kind of first form second form right you're
Carter: which is what every campaign is kind of
Carter: you're not getting that uh data capture um it doesn't work you can't build a website that does the data capture we talked about this a little little bit in the last episode you can't get that data capture on
Carter: on the website you can get the data capture why why sign up because it just won't allow you to do the sign up it's a technical thing and then flip
Zain: why why sign up because it just won't
Zain: it's a technical thing and then flip
Carter: flip it through to the to the primary site at the liberal list or the liberal side it we did that on nenshi
Zain: it we did that on nenshi but i guess it was is different portal different sort of different portal different
Carter: of different portal different softwares so
Carter: so this is instead
Carter: instead it's sign up for updates which is sign up so we can get you know, contact you and find out, you know, more if but it's not the same as register now and get your and be registered with the Liberal Party.
Zain: Carter, but while I have you any other constructive deltas and constructive changes you would make, you mentioned the video, you feel I feel like you're you're you like the brand that it doesn't take too many shots. Does it tie into your first comment, though, which I know sounded like a bit of a throwaway at the beginning of the show, which is like, you guys are looking 100
Zain: 100 years down 100 yards down the field. Right? um you this is just the first step so like you're not necessarily looking for groundbreaking innovation you're not necessarily looking for certain things you're looking to get through this process is this does that tie into yeah
Carter: process is this does that tie into yeah is this a website for the next prime minister of canada and
Carter: i think the answer is yes and no you
Zain: you want people yeah you
Carter: you want people
Zain: people
Carter: people
Zain: people
Carter: people to
Zain: to
Carter: to hold
Zain: hold
Carter: hold you
Zain: you to that bar though
Carter: though
Zain: though yeah
Carter: yeah i do i think that this should be something that you know is it is it close to the website of the next prime minister of canada it's pretty close is it the website of the next next prime minister of canada maybe
Zain: think that this
Carter: maybe with the video and a few design tweaks like i think that if you were to if i was running the campaign i'd probably be saying okay we're doing a significant overhaul we're
Carter: we're going to pop a brand new website tomorrow once the register is liberal is over and
Carter: and that new website is going to have the
Carter: the video it's going to tell more of the story it's going to throw up a couple policy pieces it's going to be talking about mark carney the prime minister investor, not Mark Carney, the guy who's trying to shill for registrations.
Zain: Interesting. Yeah. And there's to be said, you make a good point, we are going to reach a sort of chapter change in this leadership race, where the sprint for registrations and selling, I guess, selling memberships was it's conventionally said, is going to end. And we're going to enter this new sort of era in terms of what that that looks like. Corey, I'll get to your constructive delta, but Carter makes an interesting point, minimal policy, if any, on the Carney page, I'm just just looking at that right now versus freeland minimal policy but does have a party renewal plan a six-step party renewal strategy which i think is interesting from the perspective of audience as well right carter's talks here about hold me to the standard of next prime minister of canada freeland is wrapping herself in the flag making sure she's centered as liberal and then talking about the party um so they've you know deliberately or not chosen distinct swim swimlanes, even in their lack thereof and or chosen policy prescriptions that they've put out there. Respond to Carter, anything else on your constructive delta list for Mark Carney?
Corey: So I'm not fussed with his video not being on the website. First of all, we live in a more of like an ecosystem environment now. And there are a lot of channels that can carry that. But there's a very practical reason not to rely on people going to your website to find your video. I think actually, I will say the Carney campaign, I tried to find it on YouTube, and I really struggled. And And I think that's a big miss, right? Because sometimes you just go to where you think videos are and you want to find it. But the reason you want to drive people to those other channels, the social channels, whether it be Twitter or Facebook or YouTube or any of them, rather than them going to an embedded version on your page is, drum roll, please, nobody fucking shares it when it's on your page. All of the social shareability that's built in and the way that the systems try to ping you to kind of retweet and like and move it forward and propagate it does not exist on an embed. Which is why people have moved away from an embed. They want, if you're going to look for the video, for you to go use it in a way that you are then going to further propagate it here. So I take Stephen's point, but I actually think if you create a video with buzz, you don't want to embed it. You actually want it to run its life cycle on social channels, and then you warehouse it on your website. What's it like being so
Zain: your
Carter: your website. What's it like being so wrong all the time? It's an interesting dynamic,
Zain: so wrong all the time? It's an interesting dynamic, though. Which is that if the video is what you watched, and the link associated with the text on that tweet sends you to markcarney.ca, And then you're thrown the video again. You're kind of sent into a boot loop. But Carter also makes a compelling argument, which is if you go to the website, the video is the greatest sales pitch in order to get you to sign up. And it's missing. So I could see both sides of like the constructive tactical argument. I'm
Corey: the constructive tactical
Corey: tactical argument.
Corey: I'm going to point out to both of you that we talked about this a decade ago, more than a decade ago when we all worked together. Do you recall? We discussed how people end up on homepages, right? Right. And we talked a lot about this. There's a hub and spoke model and increasingly people go in through the spokes. They're not going to the hub and then going out. They're coming in through one place. They're ending up at the hub and then they're going out to another spoke. And that to me, like Carter, I just assumed it was intentional. I assume they were saying, to be honest, I did find the website, especially based
Zain: honest, I did find the website, especially based on the Freeland content through the video.
Corey: the video. They
Corey: go here and then we get them to do other things.
Zain: Respond to this, Carter. I think it's a nerdy but very interesting debate to me. I
Carter: retain the position that
Carter: telling the story was the most important thing, and
Carter: and it is a better story when told by the video. And that's what the website is designed to do.
Carter: The website is not just designed to simply register members. Now, I think that we'll probably see a change in the coming days. Yeah.
Corey: Well, look, I just also assume the website will be refreshed now that the call to action is being refreshed. And I assume now that it's run its course through social media, you're going to see the video warehouse there. But I assumed it was all pretty
Corey: pretty practical strategy. Anything
Zain: Anything else on Kearney? Can we move to gold? I think we should.
Zain: KarinaGold.ca. Carter,
Zain: can I start with you on this one? Please. An interesting website, hero image, large hero image of Karina Gould on it. The KG being used on the main page with the Canadian flag, but not necessarily just like a standard issue Canadian flag. There is some unique design elements to this, including the little triangle at the bottom. Once again, for folks, go see this. So you don't rely on my descriptions for this. has a singular call to as a donate register singular call to action videos on it and then has some written text visual
Zain: identity brand carter start where you want what did you like what you did not like and then we'll talk about the constructive deltas there on in queen of gold.ca i
Carter: i love this site i
Carter: i think that the picture of her in action as the hero shot is super strong i think that uh the kg makes a tremendous amount of sense for the generations that that she's trying to talk to um you
Carter: you know she's this
Carter: this is a introductory page for a person who's not well known um outside of the political circles uh certainly not well known between the 300 000 people that are going to be participating in this and i want to know more this
Carter: this is this a site that that says to me uh this is someone i want to talk to this is someone i want to talk about and i quite like it i love the uh the maple leaf is the a and the katrina or karina as well um
Carter: um i
Carter: i you know a little bit further down the page i like this page a lot it's simple it
Corey: this page a
Carter: it it but
Carter: it does it tells me that she's she's
Carter: she's
Carter: wanting to to brand herself and wanting to create a true brand to last for longer than than the 45 days of this campaign but is
Zain: is it important the precursor to what what Corey mentioned, for herself. Rad, this is a Karina Gould exercise.
Carter: This is a remember me in the future exercise.
Zain: Before I come to Corey, because I do want to give you a fair shake like I do with him, I'll go through your list. That's what you like.
Carter: like I do
Zain: You noted the strategy. What do you not like?
Carter: You
Carter: What do I not like? It
Zain: It doesn't even have to be the website. The overall sort of brand presentation could be the text, could be any elements of this. You've seen the video. I don't like the maple leaf.
Carter: I don't like the maple leaf.
Zain: thought you just said you like that. You like it as a A, but you don't like it. I like the maple leaf in
Carter: thought you just said you like that.
Carter: A, but you don't like it. I like the maple leaf in the letter. letter. I like the name, but
Zain: the name, but I
Carter: I do not like the actual Maple Leaf. There's too many points on it.
Carter: And by the way, I'll mention to
Zain: And by the way, I'll mention to people, this is not going to be the podcast where we take this particular logo, put it into Illustrator, look at the particular weighting, you know, do all that sort of design analysis. Other people are doing that online. We're here to talk about the overall sort of brand, the story, what they're trying to communicate. And these aspects are part of it. So like, just to be clear, like Carter's comment there and And whatever Corey thinks about the Karina Gold logo, that's the extent of what we're going to do. We're not going to, you know, spend every second talking and dissecting the K, which I think is interesting. But I
Carter: talking and
Carter: I really like the site.
Zain: I
Carter: site. I really like the image. I would be hard-pressed to
Carter: to come up with more things I would change.
Zain: Corey, plus
Zain: plus minus Delta. Let's start with plus minus. We'll go to Delta together.
Corey: Okay. Well, absent any brand
Corey: brand goals, which would be a huge mistake, but I'll just say, absent any brand goals, this is the nicest looking webpage. in my opinion and there's a couple of reasons i say that i think that the palette is the nicest it's the most modern it's got the most interesting types uh you know fonts and typesets but i
Corey: don't love all of the choices but it's the most interesting it certainly is trying to you know convey a youthfulness i think it's really funny and i was uh i was kind of smirking to myself here when steven said uh the kg makes sense for generations she wants to talk to because in my notes here i have and
Corey: this gets into the negatives a bit this is an old person's idea of a young person right like this is this
Zain: like
Carter: like
Zain: like this is this
Carter: this
Corey: this is this is what the website feels to me it feels very stuck in the era of around 2010 to 20 well
Carter: 2010 to
Corey: well hey man it
Corey: feels stuck between 2010 2015 it's got a very like roots olympic attire and the vancouver olympic games to it to me that's
Zain: to it to me that's an interesting comparison and
Corey: and and i mean that's even with like the choice of like the outdoor shots and all of that right and uh in some ways it is the one that is the closest and most direct line from the existing liberal brand and so this is kind of the paradox of karina gold's campaign to me like in some ways she's youth and change because of who she is yeah but a lot of what she's saying is is probably the most consistent with the trudeau liberals and how the liberals have presented themselves over the past bit and she's very good communicator but my negative is i think this is not actually change i think that if you put this to canadians uh unless they are so wowed by the fact that you are are younger and like you know it also just wrecks my brain that she's a fair bit younger than me even right i don't think she's my age yeah yeah
Zain: i don't think she's my age yeah yeah yeah
Corey: yeah um what if they unless they're just wowed by that like it actually is the one that feels the most like the liberal party right now so when i was talking earlier about creating a brand maybe for the general maybe Maybe just for right now, maybe for yourself. I don't think this plays in the general. I think this is not what the liberals need in the general. They need that professional. They need that polish. They need that fight even that Chrystia Freeland's got. I don't think they need this. And it's fine. But it is actually not that young. Do you think that status quo – If you compare it to a Gen Z aesthetic, if you compare it to a Gen Z aesthetic, it's
Zain: think that status quo – If you compare it to a Gen Z aesthetic, if you compare it
Corey: not a Gen Z aesthetic. Does
Zain: Does that status quo for you extend beyond the website though, Corey, into her video and how she's communicating what she's saying? it's a walk
Corey: it's a walk and talk zane it's like the most played out state thing like don't get me wrong i'm not i'm not taking a shot at you you rode the wave at a good point you did really well with the nenshi walk and talk but this is like
Corey: the homage to your video and it's not done as well as your video right like it is a pretty traditional approach our
Zain: traditional approach our video was a uh was inspired by dozens and hundreds that came before this is my point like not to say anything that we've done is original and again i'm
Corey: like not
Corey: original and again i'm not and like you don't need to be original in politics but my My point is, it's not as young and not as hip as I think that it's coming off to Steven.
Corey: That's all I'm saying. It's
Carter: It's an old man's young and hip. It's
Corey: an old person's idea of a young person.
Zain: person. You know, when you guys were saying that Karina Gold being the youngest person in the race, that's actually not true. There is someone else running. That's true. Zane Belchie is running for leader of the local party. And you can, of course, find my website at full confidence.
Corey: That's
Carter: That's true. Zane
Carter: local party.
Corey: I actually think you're older than her, Zane. How old are you?
Corey: Can we dox you on this? Oh,
Corey: Oh,
Zain: Oh, that's fine. I think she's also an 87 born, but she might be – I'm
Zain: an 87 born. Jesus, 87.
Corey: Jesus, 87. Full Confidence.
Zain: Full Confidence. Holy shit. FullConfidence.ca. That's where you can – Carter, when you go to FullConfidence.ca, okay, that's a website that makes a lot of sense because it's got too many calls to action, but they all lead you to the same spot, unlike Mark Carney.
Zain: Okay?
Carter: Yep.
Carter: I've got to tell you. Really good work. FullConfidence.ca might be my favorite one.
Zain: you. Really good work. FullConfidence.ca might be
Zain: Constructive Deltas about the Create and Gold website. Corey, so you've got a criticism there. It's more so a criticism of Carter than it is Karina Gould. Yeah,
Corey: Yeah, that's true.
Zain: Yeah,
Zain: that's true. But what would you constructively advise her to change? What would you suggest that this... And I also find another comment interesting, which I may want to hit on before I ask you for this. Absent any brand goals, is what you said. Now insert the assumed brand goals of Karina Gould,
Zain: which i guess will spoil from carter remember
Zain: remember me in the future how
Zain: is it there's a remember me
Corey: it there's a remember me in the future website if that's your brand goal let's just let's just use it as a case
Zain: let's just let's just use it as a case because carter's
Corey: because carter's put it on the table can i at least discount like what we would assume the brand goals are which is to try to win an election i don't think that i've already said why like i think it's actually continuity too much for the liberals it doesn't feel like the type of change that canadians have talked to us about wanting right which is to be like a little more economically minded uh to push forward into uh you know some of the um you
Corey: know uh more right-wing
Corey: impulses that the liberals sometimes have yes shall we say right but if your goal is to be remembered in the future it's different from the other campaigns it comes off a little bit younger simply because it is using a choice of fonts that's a little bit different than than the other campaigns right you don't have the serif sans serif debate you've got some of these like really chunky like blocky uh fonts and um you
Zain: sometimes have yes shall
Corey: know i think it does okay on that front i definitely think because it feels both different and polished it will be remembered and she will kind of be perceived as the future and moving forward but uh but that's an internal uh perception that i'm not really sure that the public would necessarily feel that it needs to be a fair bit different i think from the current liberal brand to really align with the brand that she's trying to present which is i'm new i'm change on young the
Corey: visuals don't say to me new change young they say i found a really good liberal designer who's been working on liberal campaigns for 10 years and they're the best at the version of liberal party that we have right now but it's the liberal party we have right now
Zain: answer my question of does this meet the objectives of remember me in the future carter's goal
Corey: i mean the the the visual identity does not i think the combination of uh of all of the elements she's getting there and certainly i think just the raw talent that she has in speaking is
Corey: why she's going to be remembered carter
Zain: anything else to to add on this list from a constructive delta or should we should we power through some of the the other individuals uh beyond what i what we'll call the top three if
Carter: beyond what i
Carter: if we don't make it to number four five and six and i think we're going to be disappointing the listeners yeah
Zain: well i think we have to uh let's do a round should we do the closest thing to a rapid let's do something like lightning round
Corey: let's do something
Corey: round yeah
Zain: yeah what do you who do you want to go for corey you choose the person and you start so and you can you can direct them so we've got we've got a few other folks at the ruby doll on the table frank bayless on the table uh who else do we have i'm missing that's
Corey: yeah what
Carter: missing that's
Zain: that's right i miss uh the the the final candidate that rounds out our our six uh chandra aria of course told today that he's not going to be an official candidate for the liberal party corey who do you want to start with of the three well
Corey: well let's start with ruby doll let's take it in the order you've done it here um this
Corey: this is a great example of your brand not just being what you present on a website it's really hard to get past the fact that ruby dallas brand is the stories about and i have no idea about how the office and authenticity played out but the the caregivers for her mother who came to like uh you know another town hall and said they she took my passports away and i couldn't go anywhere and the idea that she took a limousine to a liberal convention and the idea that her colleagues thought that she was very self-absorbed and her brand when
Corey: when uh when she sort of reached the end end of her political career or what we thought was the end of her political career was
Corey: not fucking stellar and
Zain: and just to be clear if everyone's watching ruby4pm.ca is this website keep going cory yeah
Corey: and just to be clear if everyone's
Corey: and so of course she's been doing other things in the interim like she's a human being who has you know
Corey: days to fill and this website is uh i think i wouldn't even say it's a throwback to like 2011 or whenever she lost her seat it it's a throwback i think i
Corey: don't even know what it's to but like it also doesn't feel like it's even remotely uh connected
Corey: connected to or aware of the modern liberal party and the way it presents itself or remotely in a good way no not in a good way or connected to or aware of what her personal brand is like you know i'm not saying that you want to background your mother when you are running for office like it'd be a pretty weird thing to be ashamed of but to have your mother as part of that prominent story as i'm reading through that content i'm like oh fucking right her i remember that story about her mother right and it's the story i just told you and so i think it doesn't yeah
Zain: in a good way no
Corey: here's what i'll say and i'm trying not to be too shitty it
Corey: it is so clueless of context that
Corey: that it is almost baffling right it's clueless of how she is perceived it's clueless of how the party has evolved it is just like time
Corey: froze and she just walked out of a 10-year trip in a parallel universe and created this website and created this candidacy and it blows my mind it just it seems like i i just don't understand you know what's missing on this website more than anything for me anything
Corey: anything that makes me think she is a rational person for thinking she should even be in this race stop
Zain: carter what's your what's your take when you see this i
Carter: carter
Carter: i agree with cory 100 well
Zain: okay let's let's talk about the politics beyond the brand for a second why do you think she's doing this i
Carter: have no idea i think that you know if this is a re-entry into politics she's not going to win this this leadership leadership uh if this is a re-entry into politics i mean it's being done i think in a very ham-handed way uh she is uh
Carter: uh not doing anything to kind of you know defeat the idea that she's self-centered and and like
Carter: like has
Carter: has an inflated sense of self uh i mean you
Carter: know she's kind of doing the exact opposite of mark carney by floating all of her credentials and trying to make herself into into
Carter: into a story frankly that hasn't existed for a decade plus um i
Carter: i am i'm
Carter: not a fan of
Carter: of this website i'm not a fan of the brand that she's trying to to establish i
Carter: mean the the
Carter: the photographs alone i mean she's
Carter: she's a very beautiful woman and
Carter: that becomes the driving force of the campaign there's
Zain: something to add here into the mix cory this is this could be brand this could be motivation we can kind of and all of it's all tied together at some point,
Zain: 775,000 Instagram followers.
Zain: Like, there may
Zain: not be a there there.
Zain: Conventional political wisdom says there's not a there there.
Zain: But it's perhaps part of her motivation to say, you
Zain: you know, maybe there's a there there. And we talk about other candidates having social media and their presence on social media. This is different. This is nearly a million followers on IG. And I haven't checked her other platforms. But there's something to be said about that. Or is there? Well,
Carter: haven't
Corey: haven't checked her
Carter: her other
Corey: there might be. I mean, I honestly don't know. And wouldn't it be funny if like, so Carter has dropped this a couple of times, but certainly we're hearing that the liberals have had quite a surge of registrations, and they're probably going to end up around where they were in 2013. And wouldn't it be fucking, I mean, peak comedy if half of those or more came from Ruby Dallas, like whatever her version of the K-Hive is, right? I just think that would be really, really funny because
Corey: it doesn't mean she's going to be successful going forward. Even if she somehow managed to win the Liberal leadership,
Corey: I don't know. This just doesn't look like it would do anything for the Liberal's fortunes. This is not a winning
Carter: anything for the Liberal's fortunes. This is not a winning Canadian brand.
Corey: No.
Zain: Let's go with Baylis. Let's move on to Frank Baylis. Frank, B-A-Y-L-I-S dot C-A. Carter, can I start with you? Plus minus delta. You've got a hero image of Frank, you know, portrait mode, interestingly lit. Folks can check it out. And then a white, black, and red website across the board. What do you think of this brand?
Carter: What do you like? What do you not like?
Zain: What do you like? What do you not
Zain: like?
Carter: like?
Carter: have this feeling like I've entered a mob era with the second photograph. I mean, he comes straight out of The Sopranos for
Carter: for me. But the guy
Carter: is
Carter: unknown to us, right? Right. Like he's known to to a small group of people. He's known within his own community, but
Carter: but he is not known to Canada.
Carter: And we really
Carter: don't get a real sense of who the guy is. He does have some policy elements, but we really don't get a sense of what this brand is trying to create because it's
Carter: it's not really a brand.
Carter: It's the candidate page from 2011.
Carter: Right. Like it's that's what it feels like to me. This
Carter: This is the same page that you would get in the standard website package from the Liberals in 2011. Am I close
Carter: close to the right year or is it 2015? 15 yeah
Corey: 15 but like i think your point is well taken it's a it's a weird one right like uh uh
Corey: you
Corey: know it has a real connor has always followed politics vibe which is not fair to him because uh there is uh there is certainly like some there there like he was a member of parliament and i think we have to acknowledge that but it feels um i don't know i mean like i think when the reaction of everybody is like frank bayless is entering the race and he's the first one in that's fucking weird right you think okay well how do i make that not weird and you have to start thinking about that mission and in a funny way like if you're going to be the candidate that comes from nowhere you have to own it a little bit more than he is and so this is a great example of like audience expectation versus so whenever you're creating a presentation i like to tell people you need to there's three things you need to know right like know your goals know your audience know yourself and
Carter: and
Zain: and in
Corey: and if your goal is to be liberal leader and
Corey: and you know your audience has deep deep skepticism you
Corey: have to have the self-awareness enough to know like i
Corey: i can't put up a page that just says look
Corey: look at all of these random awards i've won look at the fact that i sold this company that my mother started for a billion dollars clearly i should be prime minister you've got to fucking lean into that a bit and say like you're probably like i'm imagining a video almost where it's like you're probably thinking who the hell is frank bayless well let me tell you who frank bayless is he's an entrepreneur of the year he's a business person he's experienced politician he's somebody who passionately cares about politics who's been involved in montreal politics who's been involved in canada politics who's done international deals like you all you know there is all we always say don't repeat the charge but this is not this this is meeting people where they are and taking a few steps with them right like i am going to be that outsider that you're all so crazy for and the funny thing is in a funny way like ruby dala has a like he was a trudeau mp you know like he was an mp under the trudeau government it's just like i'm not even quite sure the outsider thing works firm in its current construct so that's that's kind of my overview my final point is how many fucking logos do you have frank like you there was one logo when i googled you like there was this little like i don't know like looks like a sprocket then there was the maple leaf and a shield and then there was a version that was just the shield without the maple leaf pick
Corey: pick one and you know what tell the story that starts from a common understanding between you and your audience which which is they have none, as to why you're in this race.
Zain: Before I leave Frank, Corey, your comments about the logo, I didn't get a chance to ask this about the Kearney logo. What impact do you think it had on his brand or image or whatever you'd want to call it? I'm going to call it the logo fuck-up. You may not think it qualifies as fuck-up. But what sort of impact does something like that have on a day one basis? I think
Corey: qualifies as fuck-up. But
Corey: think almost none when you clean it up as quickly as he did, which he did. that's the kind of thing that people are always pointing to and they say no it's a bit of a gaffe and obviously if you're trying to present as a professional that's not great but they cleaned it up so fast it's hard these
Corey: things happen right and um they shouldn't as regularly as they seem to have in canadian politics the last bit but they fucking happen but it's a classic fail fast don't sit there and and fight with this you know collection agency or say no no it's okay this logos here say holy fuck it's a logo for a leadership campaign it has zero value just put up a new one make sure there's a maple leaf in it let's fucking go which seems to be what they did carter
Zain: carter yeah you're on the inside of that thing what do you think i
Carter: think the speed with which they reacted was very good i mean it came across almost like the
Carter: the first one didn't happen it happened so quickly right
Zain: we've
Zain: got one final candidate to discuss jamie batiste he's the mp from sydney victoria and also the first indigenous person running for uh the liberal party of canada leadership were
Zain: you guys able to track down his website yeah
Zain: kind of uh it's interesting right he
Corey: uh it's interesting right he
Corey: he has a website yeah it is got an expired security certificate and it's for his re-election campaign however it seemed to be a lot of this
Zain: it seemed
Zain: this is what's interesting however
Corey: this is what's interesting however
Zain: however what's interesting is is that if you spell his name J-A-M-E
Zain: -Y rather
Zain: than J-A-M-I-E, you
Zain: you land on a website, Balanced Vision for Canada.
Zain: Really?
Carter: Really?
Carter: Okay, well, then I guess I did land on
Zain: well, then I guess I did land on his website. No, this is what's fascinating. I actually wanted to bring, I know you guys didn't find it. So I wanted to bring this up. I think this is really interesting. How
Carter: How are you spelling this?
Zain: How
Zain: How are you spelling
Zain: So his last name is the same, B-A-T-T-I-S-T-E, spell the first name J-A-I-M
Zain: -E-Y. So,
Zain: J-A-I-M-E-Y-B-A-T-T-I-S-T-E dot com. You get onto a Squarespace site, just
Zain: just to make sure this guy gets a fair share. I can't even get to it. I mean, you're going to have to drop this in the chat or something. I'm going to link this to you. I think this is what's fascinating about this. Okay, I think you might have found an unlaunched website, you legend. No, it's on his Twitter. It's really interesting. It's on his Twitter. It's not linked many places. It's not in the bio of his... Oh, dot com, not D-C-A. No, not dot C-A. So, I've sent it to you guys.
Corey: this guy gets a fair share. I can't even get to it. I mean, you're going to have to drop this in the chat or something. I'm going to link this to you. I
Corey: It's not linked
Corey: bio of his... Oh, dot com,
Corey: sent it to you
Zain: Okay. Because I
Corey: I
Zain: I
Corey: I do want to give him a fair shake.
Corey: Wow, we get to react in real time. This is exciting. You do,
Zain: is exciting. You do,
Zain: you do, you do.
Corey: This
Zain: This is exciting.
Corey: This is exciting. And
Zain: this video is also on his socials, that part you've seen. Interestingly, he does use the Liberal logo, which I believe you're not supposed to. You're not supposed
Corey: to. You're not supposed to do that. And
Zain: And then he's got this J and NB, which seems
Corey: this J
Zain: seems
Zain: to be surrounded by some artwork around it. Carter, you're wincing, which means you're going to go first.
Carter: I mean, it's not great. great um you
Carter: know i i i i i really
Carter: want to see the first nation story i really want to see um you
Carter: know jamie take
Carter: take off and be as strong as possible but
Carter: but even
Carter: even in his his video he's got a different spelling of his first name so
Carter: so it's going to be a little tricky to find him um
Carter: um so
Carter: yeah that is a weird
Corey: is a weird one i i'm wondering if he lost control of the site somehow i am
Carter: i am uh you
Carter: know i hope for the best for him i i always think that we we root for for the underdog we were and we root for uh first nations in canada um
Carter: um it's an important story to be told this does not tell it court
Zain: give me your quick reaction and then we'll we'll wrap it up here well
Corey: look i think it is actually summarized and his goals and his brand and what he's trying to do are so well summarized by the quote that he has at the end he says before there was a premier wap canoe there had to be an elijah of harper before there was a president president barack obama there had to be a jesse jackson there must always be people willing to try and there must always be people willing to take the first steps even if their journey is one meant to pave the way for future generations he he's basically saying he doesn't think he's in it to win it he's in it to be a trailblazer so that the next uh you know uh up and coming maybe even himself in a future contest but the next up and coming indigenous leader says fuck yeah i won't you know there there are people who've done this this before jamie did this back in 2025 there's a path here i can do this and i think that's great um i think if anything he's selling himself a little too short i even if you're not in it to win it act
Zain: yeah
Zain: yeah i
Corey: like you're in it to win it okay
Zain: okay
Zain: okay i'm gonna ask you guys final three questions here as we can go rapid fire carter three more questions
Carter: more questions best
Zain: best we did rapid fire for the
Carter: did rapid fire for the last 30 minutes best
Zain: best
Zain: best visual identity overall so excluding everything what looks and feels the best to to you, if you were associating this without the political goals in mind, without having the Stephen Carter strategist hat on, and you were assessing this as just simply a, oh, I like how that looks, who would you choose? Oh, the aesthetic.
Corey: aesthetic.
Zain: aesthetic. Yeah, yeah, best visual identity. Just purely
Corey: Yeah, yeah, best visual identity. Just purely
Zain: purely visual identity aesthetic. You're assessing this purely on like, oh, I like this a lot. You don't have to explain to me if it aligns with the audience and the political goals, but who's your best visual identity? I've got two other questions after this.
Carter: I think it's Mark Carney.
Zain: Carter's going to go with his guy carny cory who are you going with on on just the aesthetic alone um just the visual identity alone
Corey: aesthetic goes to carny uh uh the logo goes to gold oh
Zain: interesting do you like the the the carina or the kg with the maple leaf in between to talk specifics about kg i
Corey: specifics about kg i actually don't like the use of both of them we didn't get into that but if you're going to use the maple leaf as an a in one context and then use it in another it starts to feel like an a and that's confusing to me like
Carter: it starts to feel like
Carter: like all of a sudden it's keg yeah
Corey: keg
Corey: yeah like all of a sudden it's keg right and so that's my problem keg
Zain: keg okay good um cory
Corey: keg
Zain: cory i'm gonna start with you on this one best
Zain: personal brand who's done this best for themselves who's branded themselves the best i
Corey: think carny i think if you because now we're bringing it into an idea of of of how you're coming off and how that brand might be useful in the future and um yeah
Corey: i mean that's pretty solid work he's done but you know Now, again, I do want to say, like, in some ways, I
Corey: don't want to take anything away from him because he understood the assignment and he did it. But he also had an easier assignment because his job is to be the state professional banker. And
Carter: is to
Corey: And that's a lot easier than what Chrystia Freeland was going for.
Zain: Carter, best personal brand that you saw or that you've seen in this liberal race?
Carter: I
Carter: I want to say Carney, but I also want to say Gould. I think that for someone that was as unknown as she was, she's really leapt off the page for me. So, and if I say Kearney back-to-back, I'm going to just look like a shell.
Corey: You already
Zain: already look like a shell. No, it's fine. Yeah, don't worry about it. Here's a final question. You can answer this however you please, but I find this to be interesting as, like, three practitioners talking about this. Which of these brands would you want to take and find your most talented designer in your network and say, give me 10 hours with this? I want to do something with it. So it could be any of these that we've seen, even the final three that we rapid-fired, and said, I'm going to take my favorite, best, most interesting designer and 10 hours, and I want this project. Which project would you choose, Corey, between the six that we have discussed today?
Corey: a
Carter: a shell. No, it's fine. Yeah,
Corey: Yeah,
Corey: do something with
Corey: Freeland. But I do want to caution,
Corey: and I said this, but I really want to underline, you could make that brand amazing. You couldn't just hand it to one of the other candidates and make it work, right? Your brand is really tied to who you are as an individual, how you're perceived as an individual, and what your goals are. And so, while
Corey: I think that it's the one with the most unrealized potential, I suppose I'll say, I also don't, I think it's the least transferable. Carter,
Zain: last question to you. 10 hours, a designer or a creative of your choice, which project of these would you want to take on as a 10-hour sprint passion project?
Carter: Jamie Batiste.
Zain: You really?
Carter: I really do. I think that the First Nations elements would be fascinating to work with. I think that he wants to lean right into it and wants to tell a story that is unique in
Carter: in Canadian politics today, and I think that that would be really fun to work on. We
Zain: did it, guys. A tight 35 minutes on the liberal brands. We are going to leave it there. That is a wrap on episode 1848E of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velji. With me as always, Stephen Carter, half asleep, Corey Hogan. We shall see you next time.