Episode 1846: Resignation

Zain 0:01

This is The Strategist, episode 1846. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan. Guys, happy

Zain 0:09

happy New Year's. Oh, happy New Year indeed. Yes, it is. Orthodox Christmas has passed. Orthodox New Year's has passed. New fiscal. The fiscal. Yeah, The Strategist's fiscal has passed. And Carter, your

Zain 0:22

The George Chahal letter really, really

Zain 0:25

really got the Prime Minister to move. move congratulations

Carter 0:27

congratulations my letter yeah

Zain 0:29

yeah thank you who

Carter 0:30

who wrote it george

Zain 0:34

that's good no that's very good it only took what took only weeks three three turns on three podcasts for you to get it right yeah so i got

Carter 0:41

it right eventually i'm a train you

Corey 0:43

you know i was on i was on cbc radio uh with george like right after him and uh i mean he accidentally said steven i mean me like four times yeah

Carter 0:53

yeah i think so i think you probably did yeah

Carter 0:55

i didn't write that

Carter 0:57

think we've covered that pretty solidly. So there you go. No, no, I'm

Carter 1:02

Thank you very much.

Zain 1:03

To Georgia Hall. Yeah. Oh,

Carter 1:04

Oh, I thought you

Carter 1:05

you were talking to me. Carter,

Zain 1:06

Carter, we've got so much to cover. We've got the resignation of one Justin Trudeau. We've got the fact that the candidates are already cropping and popping up on our television screens.

Corey 1:17

screens. Popping down too. Yeah, popping down

Zain 1:19

down too. Indeed. We also then have to talk about what Corey considers a big deal, which is, I'm just going to read it here. the um impending and potential annexation of canada um to me i don't know i just feel like just like another story it's really not in our wheelhouse to talk about that

Carter 1:38

political going on there oh

Zain 1:39

oh yeah no none whatsoever yeah

Zain 1:41

um did you know there's a dairy queen in bc that was offering free something uh on the trudeau resignation day i forget what it was two

Corey 1:48

two dollar two dollars oh okay it wasn't free that's actually it's a a bit of an outrage because back when i was a kid it was 50 cent yeah and these are nice that's true inflation man yeah

Zain 2:00

but they don't just prop up 99 cent per isn't dairy queen like the banana republic of fast food if you're buying anything at dairy queen at full price you're fucking up royally is what i say okay if you're not at one of dairy queen's thrice weekly sales

Zain 2:15

where so this is your theory on banana

Corey 2:17

banana republic as well that's

Corey 2:18

that's it i mean i agree with it you're instantly correct yeah no

Zain 2:20

no as as the comedian gary

Corey 2:23

gary they have sales at

Zain 2:23

at banana republic listen you got to use the 40 off sale and then the coupon code that they send you okay like

Zain 2:30

like winter wonder is probably their current one i

Carter 2:34

have no idea what you're talking about i've

Carter 2:35

i've never saved money in my entire life no you you're

Zain 2:38

you're you're you're white so you haven't cory's also white but also from the northeast so he gets this yeah we're just jiving like like no one's business but carter this is this is a foreign language to you i'm

Carter 2:49

i'm completely confused very confused

Zain 2:51

um so there was that going on listen let's start with the trudeau resignation announcement rito cottage um it happens as expected on the monday we record today on wednesday carter talk to me about what stood out if anything and then i've got one specific thing that i thought was maybe strategic that trudeau did in the in the confines of that 15 minutes that i thought was quite fascinating But what stood out to you, Corey, what stood out to you?

Carter 3:18

I think what stood out to me was the almost complete lack of acceptance of any of the responsibility. You know, he resigned because of the inner turmoil, not because, you know, the turmoil internally, not because of anything that he's done wrong, not because of anything that he may have reacted poorly to. That really stood out to me is that this

Carter 3:40

this is a man who, going

Carter 3:42

going out the door, basically

Carter 3:44

basically said, you know it's not my fault somebody else's fault and i was a little bit surprised by that i mean

Zain 3:50

mean he did did you expect more poetry to it is that what i'm was that what i'm hearing or no yeah

Carter 3:55

yeah i mean a little bit of you know i've made mistakes and but it's been the joy of my life and i mean

Carter 4:01

mean there was little bits of that but i really the the

Carter 4:04

feeling i got maybe cory got a different feeling but the feeling i got from it was um okay you fuckers you win i'm

Carter 4:13

i'm out of here cory

Corey 4:16

well i mean he said and then he repeated it's not in him to quit right he doesn't want to quit it was it

Corey 4:22

it was clear that this was not his first choice that was obvious from his actions as well but there we were and he gave a speech as as steven said it was pretty hard to miss that he described like a vague set of conditions that were forcing him away that were about caucus turmoil as though there was no source of the caucus yeah

Carter 4:40

yeah exactly it's like like

Corey 4:42

this thing that happened and now he has to leave and isn't that a shame because it had nothing to do with him but here we are and you know that was that was fine i i think that he could have as a prime minister left on a bit more of a graceful note but he didn't and it wasn't it wasn't entirely graceless it was a bit like come on buddy but it wasn't the worst resignation i've ever seen i mean uh rest in peace but jim prentice still takes the cake on that one remind me what happened it

Zain 5:09

it was election night but

Corey 5:10

but i basically said fuck you tipped the lectern over and walked off the stage saying in 2015 barely not that right like he resigned on the spot yeah he

Corey 5:18

he was pretty quick um and so you know The prime minister, he left and he didn't look like he wanted to. And at the start, I was thinking, oh, geez, like, I hope he keeps it together. Like, was anybody else out there thinking, I hope he keeps it together? Well, it sounded like he

Zain 5:36

he was crying, like, and like, very, like.

Corey 5:39

Well, and part of it was the optics. Yeah.

Corey 5:42

His nose was very

Corey 5:43

like, that was also like minus 20. Yeah, yeah.

Corey 5:46

And so I guess that's the last thing I want to say about sort of the setting, which is it was, it was the version of justin trudeau that i think he wants to be remembered as which was the guy who came outside of rito cottage every day during the pandemic and talked to us like that was a choice in my opinion and not particularly sensible one to do an outdoor press conference in ottawa in january right yeah that's a crazy thing to do but i i think it spoke to how he wanted to be remembered but

Corey 6:12

also say i was no

Corey 6:14

and actually what i want to talk about is a friend vernavine i was texting with who's uh you know deeply involved in the liberal party and uh she was saying like oh you know it was like making me a little like choked up yeah that it was happening and then he started talking about middle class tax cuts and all of the things he did from 2015 to 19 and she's like as sad as it was it was time for him to go like he hadn't updated his repertoire at all he was still talking about his greatest hits from four albums ago and he was was still using the language from 10 years ago. And it

Corey 6:49

was clear that it was time to move on as a party. So in many ways, it was Justin

Corey 6:53

Justin Trudeau, right? It was the rhetoric. It was the oratory. It was his greatest hits. He was a band who

Corey 7:01

who needs to stop touring. And as he went up there, I'm sure his fans were like, I like that, but I definitely see that he needs to stop. Carter, what would you have done differently?

Zain 7:11

What would I have done differently? Yeah, what would Stephen Carter have done differently for Justin Trudeau? if you were helping him out do

Zain 7:17

it inside okay first of all what else

Carter 7:19

else i do not understand people's preoccupation with doing things outside in the middle of winter i do i

Zain 7:25

i do get the i want to remind you about better

Zain 7:30

better days i want to remind you about what i better worst days yeah yeah like my leadership in this very acute crisis that i navigated the country i kind of get that i never thought of it that way until cory brought it up but

Zain 7:40

but i get it now more yeah

Carter 7:42

yeah i don't know if you've you've ever been outside zane um

Zain 7:45

um it's rare i wear exclusively outdoor clothing yeah

Zain 7:48

yeah but i never go outside this is yeah but

Carter 7:50

but if when you're outside um your nose runs your

Carter 7:54

your uh your vocal cords don't respond the same it's all um your body tenses up these the do they

Zain 8:02

they have wi-fi outside i told they do yeah they can get my try it but it has

Carter 8:06

has to be an extender i'm told um but nonetheless i just just think that he looked like he was uncomfortable all the way through and needed um i

Carter 8:18

don't know needed support you know needed to be in a place that that he didn't have his nose running so it didn't look like he was crying the whole time let

Zain 8:25

let me ask the question a slightly different way to you cory could

Zain 8:29

could trudeau have done anything differently so that the conversation literally the minute after was not about the go forward planning the answer here might be no that

Zain 8:38

that the The conversation might not be about the go-forward plan, but might be about, oh, let's look back at some of the great stuff he did.

Corey 8:45

No, there's absolutely no way. Because of what? Like, how, or because of just how fucked the timing is on everything?

Corey 8:52

I mean, mostly the latter. Like, there's no opportunity for any of that. But I think in general, in the entire situation, just demands a what next, right? And I think he crafted his remarks knowing that there were, I don't know, 10 obvious questions he was about to be asked. asked and then he provided those 10 answers that were clearly scripted right and

Corey 9:12

and the one that i bet you you're alluding to late on me you might just just

Zain 9:16

just jump ahead if if if because we might go into the same spot the

Corey 9:19

the way he wrapped his arms around freely is that a classic fuck your buddy that

Corey 9:23

that was a classic fuck your buddy i wanted to ask was it not well no i want to ask you do

Corey 9:28

do you think it was strategic fuck

Corey 9:29

fuck your buddy i mean it was strategically to the point

Zain 9:31

that i don't want her to be the next prime minister yes i

Corey 9:34

i absolutely believe that carter

Zain 9:35

carter do you believe the same this

Zain 9:38

I don't know. I mean... No,

Corey 9:39

No, come on. Listen, can I just make the case before you jump in? I think I'm on Team Cory here. I do want to make the case. Which is why I was going to bring it up, but go ahead.

Corey 9:47

He basically made the most... Like, he designed something to be clipped for conservative attack ads. 100%. Right? It was just like the space before it and the space after it and talking about how important she was to him and how she was a partner in everything that he did. Yeah, yeah.

Corey 10:01

Like, are you kidding me? Come on. He knew what he was doing there. That wasn't... steve got a political idiot i would try to be graceful that was not him trying to be graceful because nothing else he said was graceful as you yourself mentioned at the start right that was not him trying to be

Carter 10:16

be i don't like giving him that i was trying to i don't like giving him that much credit he's not a

Zain 10:20

a political idiot carter he's been prime minister for nearly a decade and so

Carter 10:23

every time he's been he every time there's been a crisis whatsoever constant i know i know i you know this one he's a year

Zain 10:30

year and a half late on it should be obvious that that this was strategic and the The reason we're questioning it is because of the track record of the last, let's say, two and a half years, where they've been lethargic and late and not strategic. But to me, as soon as I heard that, I'm like, oh, my God. He's totally trying

Zain 10:47

to fuck her over. Like, right before she gets to do anything. In fact, Carter, I

Zain 10:52

I think he's trying to fuck her over to the point that she may not even get into this race. I don't know if I'm being, I'm getting into

Carter 10:59

Yeah, way outside, way into the speculation. because ultimately if she's not in this race it might you know cory it might be cory hogan's to take cory

Carter 11:06

cory hogan could win this but beyond not

Zain 11:08

not wanting to give him credit what other reason do you have to say this was not a strategic move by the prime minister i

Carter 11:14

i don't want to give him credit okay

Carter 11:16

that is it was a classic fuck your

Carter 11:18

yeah cory's made a very strong case and and so have you frankly but um no

Carter 11:24

no i don't want to give him credit uh

Zain 11:26

uh cory do you feel like it's an effective fuck

Corey 11:30

um look i think the liberals were destined to lose next election anyhow and this is really something like the liberals aren't going to weaponize this against her it's

Corey 11:38

it's going to be the conservatives who weaponize it against her but make no mistake that is that is clipped that is ready to go in campaign ads if christie freeland becomes leader of the liberal party and if you want to go that next meta layer i think it was so obvious that that he wanted people to know that to make her seem like a less viable candidate in the leadership. Kind of what

Zain 12:00

what I'm trying to say, which is that it will be an anchor, even if the liberal candidates, her opponents in this race, however long it may be, don't bring it up. It's well known that that exists about her. And that's

Corey 12:13

that's what we're literally talking

Zain 12:13

talking about. Yeah, exactly. Like this is Carter. Anything else you want to talk about the Trudeau resignation? Or should we move to the candidates and the rules which will come out? Because I want to give you guys an opportunity in the 24 hours or less that we have to make your public appeal in terms of what the rules should be. Now, we've had an episode, Patreon, and then we released it to the public talking about the rules. But those were in speculation, not necessarily knowing the time. We have a better sense of time. Prorogation, March 24th. We now know how much time we actually have. I want to talk about rules. But before we do that, Carter, anything for you on the PM and his resignation before we go there? And then Corey, I'll ask you the same thing.

Carter 12:52

Nothing more on the PM and his resignation other than, you know, I really do think that the guy is, you know, like pig pen with timing.

Carter 13:02

Right. Like even doing it this week, right on the Monday morning, it just every

Carter 13:09

every day that was lost was it was a valuable day. And he could have done it on the second. He could have done it before Christmas. he could have done it in a place where people would have had more time to respond and the the general feeling from just about everybody who's involved with this now is it's all happening too fast they could have used two more weeks they could have used two more days and the prime minister's level of give a fuck is just so low that he doesn't mind fucking the party and to some degree he doesn't mind fucking the country he said you know he's a fighter for canada uh well sometimes being a fighter means you have to tap out and

Carter 13:48

and he just he tapped out way too late cory

Zain 13:53

cory you believe that and and like and i guess one of the to carter's point one of the narratives that has come out of this and let's spend a few minutes on this before we get into the the rules of the race is that he's left us in the worst position as a country beyond the partisanship that prorogation trump coming in tariffs annexation the worst possible position the carnet argument is cabinet

Zain 14:17

cabinet ministers still have their job he's still the pm he can they can all do their job overreaction

Zain 14:23

overreaction to say worst possible doomsday scenario position he's left the country or not so much do you do you do you kind of agree with some of that approach i

Corey 14:33

an overreaction because like technically you could wait another month i guess

Corey 14:37

right but like no this is terrible this is an awful thing i'm on team the country's in a lot of trouble because of this i when i look back on it i get angry and

Corey 14:47

and it's because this is not something that's only obvious with the benefit of hindsight we were saying this six months ago and the idea that the liberals were going to have a strategy of donald trump is such a train wreck you need us was always ridiculous like not not a ridiculous strategy if you're down five in the polls ridiculous strategy if you're down 20 in the polls right and the and i guess i think maybe what i even underappreciated is if you if you kind of unpack that a little bit right god the country's going to need us because we're going to be so royally fucked yes well no they're not and the country's going to be so royally fucked so would you just get on with it would Would you just get us a prime minister who's got some sort of authority, whether it's yourself or Pierre Polyev, or I don't even care. Maybe Elizabeth May wins the election in like the upset of the century. I don't care. What I do care about is we've got a prime minister who has no moral authority, no political authority, and we are in probably the biggest moment of crisis for this country.

Corey 15:44

I'm not sure it's an exaggeration to say in my lifetime, and I'm not saying we're going to be an ex tomorrow. I don't want to be, you know, but we're talking about 25% tariffs on a country that represents 20% of our GDP, the exports, right? And

Corey 15:56

And we are talking about a very perilous situation with a man who seems to have lost even the small sense of balance he had in the White House. So, yeah, I am on team. He's put us in a really, really bad position here. And now a lot of people are left to pick up the pieces and try to make the best of it possible, given this insane hand that he has dealt everybody around him directly and the country as a whole.

Zain 16:20

Carter, overreaction? That he's left us in the worst possible spot? Or not so much? I mean, he's still PM, God's cabinet, everything's still there. air i

Carter 16:30

mean i think it's a bit of an overreaction to suggest that they can't function i i but at the same time i don't disagree with a word that cory said around

Carter 16:40

yeah this is you know this is a guy who was hoping that trump would win so that he'd have a contrast argument against trump with pierre poliev and you know trump won he expected to see movement in the polls his

Carter 16:53

his budget he expected to see movement in the polls his his like if If everything that you do that you expect to see action or a reaction from is

Carter 17:03

is failing, then the only thing for you to do is to leave. And we've been saying it for at least a year that

Carter 17:09

that he had to go.

Carter 17:11

And his choices are going to hurt the country. And for someone who professes to love the country as much as he does, Um,

Carter 17:20

Um, it's a real shame because the, the country that he professes to love has been, um, I

Carter 17:28

I don't want to see irreparably harmed, but it certainly has been harmed, uh, substantially.

Zain 17:35

I want to, I want to talk about, uh, Trump in a second, the premier's Ford, uh, in particular, especially with rumors of him triggering an election in Ontario to try to get that mandate, to try to get that power, so to speak on, talk about the strategy there. Before I do that, let's talk about the liberals, as I mentioned. Carter, the candidates are already sort of popping up, dropping off. Dom LeBlanc, let's start there. He's not going to do it. Is that a big loss for the liberals? Or is he, Zane? Well, okay, so... No, keep asking. Keep asking your simple questions, and then I'll give you the good

Zain 18:05

good answer. Well, there is rumors that there's a group of folks inside the caucus trying to convince him even harder now to do it. Maybe that's strategic. Maybe that's devised, Carter. On the face of it, Donald LeBlanc not running, is that a loss for the liberals in this leadership race? Or do they have enough?

Carter 18:23

No, I think that it is a loss. I think that there needed to be at least three or four strong candidates. And as you start to reduce the number of candidates that are going to be running in your race, it really hurts the party in general. not because in part because there's it is a short race um if you have five candidates all out there pushing memberships you're going to grow the base of the of the party more than when you only have two candidates out there pushing memberships um candidates do better than mps uh candidates do better than ministers so losing dominic leblanc is a a blow and uh i would say it's a blow again again directly caused by justin trudeau having to move his finance minister in the last two weeks go

Zain 19:14

go ahead give us a sophisticated answer on on what dom might be up to or what could happen with dom maybe i shouldn't say what he might be up to right

Corey 19:21

right so um well reported the liberal board is meeting tomorrow from the day we're recording this is wednesday uh so thursday to set the rules of this contest assuming they set them it's of course possible that they can't come to some sort of conclusion that's unlikely but it's possible that the board has been talking about this obviously for a few days at the very least in a in a quasi-formal sense there's i think it was had to do with like meeting notice requirements or something that said it on thursday proper but there were also other meetings to happen there was a meeting with caucus today and the like but one of the things that became clear after justin trudeau resigned is that all of a sudden a contest that i

Corey 20:02

think some people could have reasonably thought maybe

Corey 20:04

maybe nobody runs for

Corey 20:05

for a hot minute it looked like holy shit is everybody going i think there were like 12 potential candidates on the first day and dominic leblanc was one of them of course and i you know i do think he is a loss if he doesn't enter because there's also some suspicion that champagne and joey won't be in either which would mean you don't have a francophone candidate effectively right i'm not I'm not counting Frank Bayless, for obvious reasons.

Corey 20:32

the, you know, the rules have sort of tightened even in, like, nothing's real yet. But in terms of people's conceptualization of what entrance fees should be in terms of people's conceptualization of what requirements were going to be put on people, those have increased. increased uh i've been i've been talking to just a bunch of people in the orbit and you know at one point it's like maybe the entry fee will be x and then all of a sudden it's double x and now it's quadruple x right like yeah rumors all of this is a million dollars

Corey 21:01

yeah so this is all ephemeral but yeah but we're we're seeing big entry fees being discussed here and um that can reasonably push people out of the race it might even push a guy like don out of the race and i will also say the caucus has got at least a cohort of it who are thinking no this is all nuts we're trying to smash a leadership contest in by march 24th let's just pick an interim leader and let's have a proper leadership contest after this election now for a lot of reasons i think that's great that's

Carter 21:32

that's lunacy by the way i

Corey 21:34

i think the caucus is out of their gourd if they think that well why

Corey 21:37

why is it will not help interim leader

Zain 21:39

leader not just pick

Corey 21:41

it has to do with the liberal constitution so like there is a way to appoint

Corey 21:45

an interim leader oh for like an indeterminate that person would be

Zain 21:50

be prime minister of this country well

Corey 21:52

well so this is part of what makes it crazy zane right um but they'd pick an interim leader and then they'd have like this full contest but they would run an election with somebody who's an interim leader like hey canadians this person's leading it the party might not look anything like what this person wants because they're just basically you've

Corey 22:10

you've conceded the election of course you haven't right

Carter 22:13

more than conceded it i

Carter 22:16

you're conceding the election and giving up the party anyways

Corey 22:19

anyways a little bit of a detour but all to say there's some of this caucus conversation too and certainly some of the people who've been pushing that have thought dominic leblanc would be the obvious interim leader in that particular moment so i you know i think that a bunch of different stuff can all be happening and i actually don't think they're mutually exclusive from a dom leblanc strategy point of view one he could have been thinking of running and now thinking maybe i don't want to run certainly people were calling around on his behalf over the past few days maybe they didn't like what they heard on the phones right maybe he didn't like how the rules were shaping up maybe he started thinking hey if i pull out of this race and it starts to look less shaky maybe they'll just make me interim leader maybe there's some brinksmanship here and maybe he's thinking let's just see where this goes right let's just put that out there let's see if people actually are like no no dom you have to enter the race you know ask me three three times, see if it builds a little bit of buzz. If it doesn't, I didn't have the buzz anyways. I'm not going to do it. I won't be able to beat Carney. I won't be able to beat Freeland. I think that's all possible. So like all I would say, and I know I've said a lot on this particular matter is,

Corey 23:18

this is all moving so quickly and so wildly. Like, I don't even know if you can count people's I'm ins or I'm outs as ins or outs at this moment as things are unfolding. Carter, do you agree with that? Corey said a lot, but

Zain 23:29

but I want to pick up. This is just the last point he said. how credible

Zain 23:32

credible are the yeas or the nays and then then game out at least for me right at least give me the analysis on uh leblanc's strategy to to go with his announcement even prior to any rules being put on the table officially yeah

Carter 23:46

yeah i mean his his announcement that he was not going to run in the race was very much weighted on the idea that he was going to remain the finance minister and foreign affairs minister um that yeah

Carter 23:56

yeah that weighting tells me that one of the rules that that should be in place, and I very strongly agree with this, is that if you're running in this race, you cannot be a cabinet minister. You

Carter 24:08

You can't be sitting in the government when you're seeking to lead the party.

Carter 24:13

The conflict of interest is just too high.

Zain 24:16

Is it conflict of interest or just the load on a single person and where we are right now with this acute crisis? Because we have had parts in history where I believe, and Corey, you might be the the history on this where we have had cabinet ministers run

Corey 24:30

run for leadership they

Corey 24:31

they usually step down or like suspend themselves and there is a conflict of interest there because when you're a minister of the crown you travel on the public's dime yeah

Corey 24:39

right there's there's a lot of considerations there and it's just an awful lot cleaner if your full-time job is running for leader yeah

Carter 24:46

yeah and what do you have what happens if you have to start doing spending initiatives or what happens if you have to from your ministry

Carter 24:51

ministry you know you know all of a sudden your ministry is the one that's doing the negotiations with the Trump government.

Carter 24:56

Your own influence is definitely going to be

Carter 25:00

a part of that calculation.

Carter 25:03

It's just inconceivable to me that they wouldn't have to resign.

Carter 25:06

So Dominic LeBlanc saying that he has to resign is one of the, or he wants to keep his role that he got all of two weeks ago, by the way. I mean, it's not like he's super set up in this role and really understands it. it um you know the briefing binder has already been prepared you can hand the briefing binder to the next guy with your notes right like it's not exactly a complex structure so i think that dominic leblanc has i

Carter 25:33

i think it's just as simple as he saw that he read the tea leaves he saw he's not going to do anything he's not going to be able to get out from under um justin trudeau and uh he

Carter 25:44

decided not to run. I think that when a man, when a person says something, I'm simple. I believe them.

Zain 25:52

Oh, okay. Is that how you are? Yeah. Okay, you don't read into it and try to figure out their political motives?

Carter 25:58

No, I never have.

Zain 25:59

Okay, excellent. You know what, the history of your appearances on the show dictate as such. No,

Carter 26:03

No, I'm a literalist.

Zain 26:06

Corey, let's talk about some of the rules. We expect them in the next 24 to 48 hours. I think that's a reasonable timeline to expect them yep any

Zain 26:14

any any appeals you'd like to make entrance fee candidate size length um what else can i throw up on there i guess spending limits are going to be dictated by elections canada am i right on that okay

Zain 26:26

okay so that's not a well you

Corey 26:28

there's like there's gonna be a lot

Zain 26:30

made of whole cloth here so uh any anything you want to put on the table either from a past episode or with new thinking now knowing the timeline um from from your end and card will ask you the same question well

Corey 26:41

let's let's be clear if the liberals are going to have a leader in place by march 24th they have to do something other than what their constitution prescribes right right because that process is at least you

Corey 26:54

you know it's at least 90 days but it's definitely probably more like 100 days or plus uh so they're going to have to truncate some timelines they're going to have to do that by squinting and looking at rules that allow them to change the date of the leadership And say, okay, well, that also means all of these deadlines that are related to the leadership. And it's funny, because this is going to be, they've never run this leadership process. These rules were created in 2016. And they're going to have to set them aside, right? I mean, that's, that is what it is. But as soon as you've opened that Pandora's box. So wait,

Zain 27:26

wait, wait. Just so our listeners are clear on this, because I don't think I'm aware of this. The rules that the Constitution currently dictates, are those new post-Trudeau rules? They're not the rules that got Trudeau in in 13? Okay, that's

Zain 27:38

And so what's in those rules that's

Corey 27:40

that's different from 13, if you know?

Corey 27:42

Yeah. Oh, sure. I mean, I've got a pretty good understanding of it.

Corey 27:47

Well, I think the big one is, in 2013, the

Corey 27:53

the party was a real grab bag of like constitutional amendments over the years, right? And without getting way too deep into the history of the Liberal Party, the Liberal Party started as a federation. There were all of these provincial liberal parties, the Ontario Liberal Party, the Alberta Liberal Party. And collectively, there was the Liberal Party of Canada. But each of those provincial organizations were wings of the original Liberal Party. Now, over the years, you know, Quebec, Alberta, Ontario, most of the provinces, but not all of the provinces, defederated, and their provincial, like, political parties separated from the federal party. And you ended up with a weird grab bag where in a province like Alberta, where there was an Alberta Liberal Party that was official opposition, they weren't associated with the federal Liberal Party. And the operations

Corey 28:38

operations of the Liberal Party for the federal Liberal Party were run by an organization stood up called the lpca liberal party of canada in alberta and there was one in bc and all

Corey 28:49

all i'm saying you know and then in nova scotia it was still a merged part right right so all i'm saying is it was a federation it started as a federation it had become more of a central party but there were still these provincial wings that were part of a federation and as a result one of the very weird things is any of the staff on the ground in the provinces like if you weren't staff in ottawa you

Corey 29:08

were paid for by these provincial wings which were you know they had significant authority and they were semi-autonomous they had their own constitutions they had their own staff and the party was like this is not a way to run a modern political movement so in 2016 there was a big constitutional change that really streamlined the constitution got rid of what we called ptas provincial territorial association said there is one constitution it governs the provincial operations it governs the um it governs the eda electoral district association operations there are no like merged wings now they're just it's all separate there's just a liberal party of canada and while they were at it they also cleaned up a lot of the supporter system stuff which is still there and it is a supporter system they

Corey 29:52

they called it registered liberals and there's no membership in the constitution now there is basically one way to engage in the liberal party it is to be registered as a supporter and that's that previously there had been register but there was also membership and so there were like these tiers and they said nope we're the world's most open movement or

Corey 30:09

or canada's most open movement you just register as a liberal and you get to engage in all of these processes and a lot of other stuff too zane but like as they were cleaning it up they went through and they added certain timelines and they defined certain processes through which the leadership would be point system remain

Corey 30:24

there are 100 points systems yeah 100 points not a floor or ceiling it's just a flat 100 so if there's two members it's 100 points okay if there's 20 000 members it's 100 that's interesting

Zain 30:34

interesting and important potentially very

Corey 30:36

much so especially in a short race when you think about some of the liberal wastelands that are out there um so that is uh that's what they did and they created it and this was supposed to be a big part of trudeau's party legacy and now they just got to kind of put aside

Zain 30:51

That's really interesting. Carter, I'm

Zain 30:54

I'm going to ask the question I asked Corey. I'll give you a fair shot at this, Corey.

Zain 31:00

What appeals do you want to make right now? If you're making an appeal to this board, if you're making an appeal to this party, either on – I can give you a list of things, but I suspect you know them, right? The entrance fee, time horizon, length, anything else you want to kind of talk about related to the rules. cut-offs for memberships, I guess, should that enter the fray now made of whole club? Talk to me about any of those. What's Stephen Carter best practice right now and why?

Carter 31:30

I believe that you should have as many new members as possible join your organization. So the later your membership cut-off can be, and I'm just going to use the word membership as a synonym for supporters, as a synonym for whatever.

Carter 31:45

i would like a late membership cutoff as late as as possible now in

Carter 31:51

in the 2011 pc leadership race that membership cutoff was the day of the vote like by the door sort

Carter 31:59

so maybe a bit late maybe

Carter 32:02

maybe a bit late but you know if this thing is going to happen by the 24th of march i'd love to see a cutoff date that's more like the 15th of february um

Zain 32:12

that's really close but sorry Sorry, did you say if this thing is happening, you gave me a hypothetical, what date did I miss? 20th of March?

Carter 32:20

That's when the... No, no, that's right. When the prime minister changes over to the new prime minister.

Zain 32:28

Correct. When do you think you want this leadership to end, this leadership contest, when do you want that to end?

Carter 32:33

Probably the 15th of March. Okay,

Carter 32:36

Okay, so 10 days. I'm not sure what day of the week that is. Sure.

Carter 32:38

But I see no reason for

Carter 32:41

for the new leader to have more than 10 days to craft a speech from the throne that's going to be... Holy

Corey 32:47

Holy fuck, do I ever. But go on.

Carter 32:50

That speech from the throne needs to be the thing that defeats the government. And we go straight into an election where the speech from the throne is the party platform for the liberals. liberals.

Carter 33:03

So the cutoff needs to be decent enough so that you can really start to build your ground game.

Zain 33:09

So you're saying, just so I'm clear, you're saying, I'm not saying this to hold you to it, but just to put something on the table. March 24th is the drop dead. That's when prorogation ends. March 15th-ish, 10-day period, that's how much time you want to give the new PM slash new leader, cabinet, throne speech, you know, defeat themselves. I guess we can talk talk about the mechanism that they that they pull um and

Zain 33:33

and then you're saying a month before that mid feb is your your membership cutoff date approximately is what you're you're suggesting february

Carter 33:40

february 15th let's call it february 15th and the other thing that i'd be looking for

Carter 33:44

and this goes against everybody else maybe cory agrees with me but everybody else seems to not agree with me i

Carter 33:51

i don't like high entrance fees i

Carter 33:54

think that an entrance fee like i think the last couple of interest fees that we've seen have been a quarter million dollars, $175,000. They are capped at $1,700 per donation, give or take. And

Carter 34:07

this is an important

Zain 34:07

important piece. This comes out of, you can't just like half a mil self-finance

Carter 34:12

-finance an entrance fee.

Carter 34:14

have to raise this money. So if this is a half mil.

Zain 34:18

mil. Is it fair to say that the first half mil you raise has to go to your fee? yeah and it has to go quick yeah

Carter 34:24

right because you can't be in you

Carter 34:27

can't be in until you're in you

Carter 34:30

you know there's a very technical like the way that you raise money the way that you register as a candidate all of this has to be registered with elections canada all the donations have to come in in a certain way the checks has to be you know it's

Carter 34:42

it's a very complex process and a very time-consuming process and you don't have time and you remember when during the the leadership ship in alberta danielle smith had all her signatures way before everybody else yes

Carter 34:55

and was able to enter the race and everybody else was chasing their signatures and trying to get you know signatures in fort mcmurray because they needed the signatures and they also needed to raise 175 000 and by the time they were done doing those two things danielle smith had won the fucking leadership this

Carter 35:12

this is where you don't want to happen in your leadership you want there to actually be a leadership contest you want to use the leadership to organize your your your local riding associations you want to have the what is it ldas or what's the eda edas

Carter 35:28

edas the edas need to be organized cory

Carter 35:31

cory talked about political wastelands there's massive political wastelands where you can now get 15 people who will run the general election for you right now you have a guy maybe Maybe if you're lucky. And this is the way that you build a party is through a leadership race. And this idea that you want to have as few candidates as possible and a shorter period of time to actually sign up new members or supporters is ridiculous. You want those two things to be the entry to be as low as possible and the membership length as long as possible. Over to you, Corey, to correct me on anything that I've said that you disagree with.

Zain 36:10

with. You know, Corey, you said you're better reacting to Carter than throwing it out there yourself. Well, Carter's giving you a lot to react to. I'm going to summarize. So March 24th is the drop dead. He's saying March 15, 10 days or so. A month before that is the membership cutoff and a low-ish fee. Carter, do you have a number in mind? Is like 150 your number? 150. Okay, sure. So Carter's saying- If

Carter 36:31

If you want to be prime minister, you have to be able to raise at least 150. I

Zain 36:34

I hear you. There is a certain sort of like competency

Zain 36:36

competency element to it. but like, do you have some heft? Well,

Carter 36:40

Well, our friend Steve McKinnon's floating his name out there, right?

Corey 36:44

Yeah, he is, yeah. He's

Carter 36:45

He's got to be able to raise $100,000. Steve, can you raise $1,000? Yes,

Carter 36:48

yes, that's it. Yeah, I mean, that's... Right, right. That's 100 people giving him $1,500 each. I'm not sure. I'm

Carter 36:53

I'm not sure. Corey and I haven't

Carter 36:55

haven't sent our checks. Let's put it that way.

Zain 36:58

Yet, yet, because the rules haven't been announced. Yeah.

Zain 37:01

Yet, yet. Corey, react to what you've heard. Start anywhere you'd like.

Corey 37:07

yeah why don't i give like 30 000 feet how i think it should be structured then i want to maybe explain slash rebut some of the things that steven said so i think this thing's got to be wrapped up well look honestly probably as soon as possible because my overriding concern as a canadian is we're in a lot of trouble right now but if i'm thinking about it in terms of the liberal party and what they want to do they want to get it done by march 1st they want that membership cutoff to be maybe 10 days before i'm saying you push that thing to the wire i'm saying a february 20th maybe even 25th date depending on the machinery that you can create crazy

Corey 37:43

i don't even care if you think it's crazy

Carter 37:44

crazy i agree with you explain to me why it's crazy

Carter 37:47

it's about verification holy

Corey 37:50

holy cow yeah zane i gotta tell you i was i was going over um some of the old documentation from the systems that we had to validate a supporter system and online votes in alberta in 2011 and i like i saw a step where i swear to you i got in cold flashes which was the matching step between the electors list because we use the elections

Corey 38:11

alberta list and the submissions and the crazy fucking manual steps we had and the custom tools we built just to see if we could try to match this and how it still took dozens of volunteers hundreds of hours to figure this shit out like it is a lot of work you know and somebody faxes in their id and it's blurry and you got to call them again and all of this it is a lot of work so

Corey 38:34

you've got to find some automated ways hopefully ai can help you out a little bit there anyways march

Corey 38:40

march 1st i think this has got to be done i'll tell you what race has

Zain 38:43

has got to be done march 1st got

Corey 38:45

got to be done why

Corey 38:46

five days before i think you have the membership cut off for as long as possible to allow as many registered members as possible and

Corey 38:53

and which in terms of you put a dollar amount to

Corey 38:56

that membership is it a

Zain 38:59

i i actually think it's i make it free okay both of you would say that well

Corey 39:01

well so yeah and also this is actually one of the changes that occurred in 2016 although i'm not sure how the board will interpret it in 2011 there was effectively a poll tax i think it was ten dollars so you could be a registered supporter but you still had to pay the ten dollars the the liberal constitution now says you can there is no price to be a registered supporter However, it does allow the board to essentially create additional rules for supporters who get to vote. And so I don't know how that will go. But I would make it open

Corey 39:31

and expensive. But let's get back to that one in a minute. And then in terms of entry fee, I

Corey 39:36

I also don't like high entrance fees as a general rule. But I actually would ask us to zoom out a bit and say, what is the goal of a high entrance fee? And I would say there's three goals. you two talked about one of them the fundraising qualification right like you're going to lead a party you should be able to raise money

Corey 39:53

money or else that party's in a lot of fucking trouble see

Corey 39:56

ndp right see jagmeet singh see what they're doing right there right another reason very obvious is money for the party so you're about to go into a general election for memberships

Corey 40:07

well the liberals have struggled a bit in fundraising too yeah

Corey 40:11

and by the way membership doesn't it

Corey 40:13

it could could like in a broad-based sense give a lot of money but it's not historically like a huge driver of cash but the uh you know it's money for the party and the party desperately needs money right now but the third reason is

Corey 40:25

keeping out the crazies you know you don't want everyone and their dog just to be able to walk around and get signatures and run for prime

Zain 40:31

minister of canada you

Corey 40:32

you don't want this podcast leader of the liberal stand up

Zain 40:34

up a candidate yeah

Corey 40:35

yeah you don't want draft zane for prime minister right or do you and well

Corey 40:40

well maybe you do people put your money where your your mouth is you know venmo

Zain 40:44

lessons with christy clark so

Corey 40:48

on that third goal though there are other ways to do it let's take them in reverse order right keep out the crazies this is where i think a caucus filter or a party president like writing president filter or something like that like you need x number of signatures would allow you to keep out crazies and also keep the size of the field low i'm going to put those two together right like you don't want like a massive crowd of people so you don't you know just create an additional nomination step that's certainly possible fundraising qualifications normally i agree certainly i think the liberals are going to need it after the election but let's be serious this

Corey 41:19

this is a keep the furniture election and you need a certain amount of enthusiasm so i'm not really sure about that one and in terms of money for the party i

Corey 41:28

i i guess i agree but i also think that you like it's you you just need that money coming to the party proper right like this is not one of these like people talk about the limits a lot and they're like well you know there's different limit pools and all of that well sorry folks but they're still it's like the one taxpayer thing like you need this money for the general you actually don't want people spending a lot of money necessarily fundraising suboptimally a general that could be literally

Zain 41:54

well it will be it basically will be but

Corey 41:57

now let's walk through it i already talked about why i thought the membership cutoff should be really close you need as many members as possible let's talk about the march first date and this is where i think maybe like me having been a senior official and having gone through a transition like just gets cold sweats when i hear like a march 15th and then a march 24th um you know throne speech where the government's gonna fall people

Corey 42:21

we do not have pretend prime ministers in this country we do not have pretend first ministers especially not now at moments like crisis you're not just a candidate for PM if you win. You're the fucking prime minister, and there is a transition that needs to occur. People need to be sworn in. Security clearances need to happen. Stuff needs to go down, and people need to be read into their files, because even if there's an election going on, there is always a government. We can't have a fucking prime minister who doesn't know anything about the government, even if it is during an election. I'm sorry. So you're going to need as much time as possible for the machinery of government to do its thing, because I'll tell tell you something even the first to the 24th is

Corey 42:59

is insane you know it's insane steven you

Carter 43:02

you know i can do it in nine days uh

Corey 43:05

uh you can't i can't

Carter 43:05

can't do it in nine days what

Carter 43:08

do i need to know about fisheries what

Corey 43:10

what do you they're

Corey 43:13

just listen it's not even about that do

Corey 43:17

you know how stressful it is on a public service doing the transition as well like

Carter 43:21

like you public service guys have had it too easy for too long they

Corey 43:25

they there's a lot easy we got a lot going on in this country at some point we'll probably get to a segment about donald trump here we got a lot going on in this country we can't be fucking figuring out briefing binders and trying to smash them into 10 days that's not going to happen it

Carter 43:39

it should happen carter

Carter 43:41

carter is cory being is

Zain 43:44

it wishful thinking that they're actually going to have a briefed cabinet and a briefed prime minister oh

Carter 43:49

oh you have to i mean i totally agree with cory okay i mean as much as as much as i would love to give him a hard time he's completely right the the the truth of the matter is that you

Carter 44:01

you have to have a functioning government where i disagree with cory is

Carter 44:05

is that i think that you can come in with a you can basically have a prime minister who comes into a a caretaking uh

Carter 44:13

you know you you can leave justin trudeau's cabinet in place you don't have to go in and say here's my brand spank a new cabinet The prime minister can get sworn in, get his briefing or her briefing books, and jump immediately into an election, which they're going to do.

Corey 44:30

Yeah, that is a fair point. I will say politically, it's not advantageous because then you're going in with Trudeau's cabinet, right? Like you don't get your fresh start. But

Carter 44:39

But I'm not sure that, you know, oh, I appointed Steve McKinnon into finance is going to change the entire outcome of the electorate. i mean we elect so much on the top person now right

Corey 44:51

the leader i will concede that right

Carter 44:54

this is when i'm talking about february or march the 15th i know it's less than ideal i blame just i don't know if you heard the first part zane i blame justin okay

Carter 45:04

yeah um but the the

Carter 45:07

the the truth of the matter is this is a significant problem

Carter 45:12

problem for the government of Canada period

Zain 45:14

period and for and for Canada I guess more broadly especially with the acute crisis we're facing right yeah

Carter 45:19

yeah it is and Corey's points aren't wrong it's just that we're both making different trade-offs right

Carter 45:24

right both of us are saying okay this is a trade-off problem and I'm saying that we can get through the trade-off by having a little bit lower uh entry fee building the focus on building the party I believe in it I believe in party building I think that that is a a big part of a leadership race but it's going to be hampered i also believe in having a strong government but

Carter 45:47

but that's going to be hampered so how do we balance these things we're corian i mean we're talking about a difference of two weeks yeah

Corey 45:55

yeah we are it's crazy right

Carter 45:56

it's not the way we've been asking for this many

Corey 45:59

many people these contests last like five six months at the minimum usually this is there's coffee

Zain 46:04

debates and pre-organized whatever's and you know there's regional tours and you know the party infrastructure organizes some things some guardrails for you to follow sort of who knows what what comes out of core you want to add something debates of course um which rule in

Zain 46:21

in the next 48 hours which

Zain 46:23

which rule would you be most pissed off to see if it were in there it

Zain 46:28

it could be about money could be about timeline could be about membership cutoff could be about the support so it could be anything but corey like yeah you're not going to get your wish list but which of the things if you see like opposing your wish list that you'd be like fuck this this is a bad strategic call yeah

Corey 46:43

yeah i don't care about the money i i ultimately think you should wrap it up by march 1st but i guess i can't be outraged by 15th stevens actually made me come around a bit on that even though it still puts me into cold sweats to think about what that will do to the government um and the membership cutoff is going to be dictated almost entirely entirely by logistics. Like, are they actually able to do it? So unless that membership cutoff were say, like right now, like, Hey, sorry, if you're not on the, on the bus already, you've got a problem. I, they're going to do what they're going to do there. You're going to figure it out. I'm going to go a little off menu and say, the thing that would make me crazy is if they decided, no, we're just going to use the interim process and whoever goes into this.

Corey 47:23

Well, they don't have to, like the party, the party can decide any interim process. They could could say oh interesting you know what okay we're we're gonna just do a thing and it's gonna be done under the interim process how likely do you

Corey 47:35

you think that is it's

Corey 47:36

it's not impossible certainly i know it has been discussed about whether they even have a vote with the interim justice i don't think that's gonna happen any of this i think that was kind of like yesterday's

Corey 47:45

yesterday's thinking but certain not literally yesterday but you

Corey 47:49

you know things are moving fast here but i it's not impossible it's not impossible somebody says you

Corey 47:55

know it's not gonna work under our rules and let's just use the interim process speaking

Zain 47:58

speaking of things that are not impossible card i'll cut you in a second stick with cory here um when

Zain 48:04

when we just like put this all out it all sounds nuts yeah

Zain 48:09

so i mean i'm sure

Corey 48:10

sure that we've lost half the audience going through some of this technical stuff i don't think you know our audience i think we've gained i think we've gained twice the audience they've

Corey 48:17

they've called people into the room and said hey you gotta listen to this quick

Zain 48:20

quick game twice yet but

Zain 48:21

but but but does any Any of this let

Zain 48:25

let you buy into the stream of thinking that this just ultimately means Trudeau somehow stays, that this is too nuts and Trudeau is the next candidate?

Corey 48:35

No, it's not going to happen. The party has moved on pretty quickly here, and now

Corey 48:40

now it's a situation of just making the best out of a bad thing. One

Carter 48:45

One of the things that's made me craziest is listening to the cabinet ministers that could have actually impacted the outcome in June, impacted the outcome in September, impacted

Carter 48:54

impacted the outcome even last winter, suddenly saying he really should have left earlier. I

Carter 49:03

you know, be counted. This is kind of a gong show. But

Carter 49:07

But the one rule that I would be pissed to see is that membership is essentially retroactive. i do agree like no new members

Carter 49:17

new members you you would have to be a member as of january 1st 2025 that

Carter 49:22

that would make me insane the other thing that would make me insane is an interim but

Carter 49:26

but i just i think we're past that i think that yeah

Carter 49:29

that that threat's gone i

Zain 49:31

i want to spend a lot of time on candidates eventually but let me spend a few minutes now who

Zain 49:36

who would you be want to be right now carter would you and you could give it to me from an inside outside frame you could give it to to me from a, you know, close versus far. You could give it to me from a more viable or natural constituency, Quebec or BC. But you could also give it to me specific. Who would you rather be right now with all the rumored names? And I'm not going to run through the list. Who would you want to be right now, Carter, as we're gelling on the rules at this moment in time? Corey, same question to you

Carter 50:04

you in a second. I'm going to make a bold prediction that this winds up with two candidates by the end.

Carter 50:09

You mean only two people? I think it's only going to be, I think it's only going going to be freeland and i think it's only going to be carney and of those two i'd much rather be wow what

Zain 50:18

makes you think hold on before i get to you what makes you think this is only a two horse race ultimately i

Carter 50:23

i think that the dollar value is going to be too high for people the dollar value in the time you know how long it takes people to raise a half a million dollars right

Carter 50:31

right like that's out of time

Carter 50:32

yeah and and then all of a sudden your membership cut so you got to be doing that at the same time that you're trying to mobilize and build out what a minimum of 140 edas to be bringing you a minimum of 50 to 60 percent of the vote in those 140 edas and then you have to line up secondary support like it's

Carter 50:55

it's just not going to happen i think it's going to be two candidates because these guys the

Carter 50:59

the the rules are going to be too difficult um

Carter 51:02

um for them to actually put in place cory

Zain 51:05

who'd you who'd you want to be right now i

Corey 51:09

actually think i'm i'm not even going to call her a dark horse anymore i have been shocked by how strong christy clark seems in this race right now based on what people i'm talking to well

Corey 51:19

well first of all it's just the conversations the people who are saying to me things like what do you think about christy clark yes admittedly i'm an albertan i have circles that skew a little bit more right than the average you know liberal that's maybe talking to some of the other people out there but i think she is coming up in interesting ways from interesting corners friends in quebec saying things like that to me like oh christy clark she doesn't even really speak french but like she's getting she's cop she's captured some sort of zeitgeist she's certainly been hustling for for months at this point like months and months getting out there and i understand that her like like her field calls, have had lots and lots of people, like lots of people. And so I'm not as convinced that she's not going to be able to find that money. I also am not as convinced it's actually going to end up being 500,000. That number gets thrown out there, but I've

Corey 52:12

I've been in enough boards to know that it doesn't take very much of a moral stance of people to say, well, we're going to come off as a party of elites. Doesn't 250 sound reasonable? Is that really so so bad right like i i think that's very likely that they'll end up at 250

Carter 52:27

250 is a bargain carter

Zain 52:28

carter what do you think of clark 250 is a bargain you've seen and there's anchoring you've seen carter christy clark up front and center you've seen the comeback kid we've seen 2013 we probably have a more intimate understanding of what happened there than than most being so close to british columbia oh

Corey 52:42

oh yeah just because of our geography for

Zain 52:45

for sure like i wanted i wanted i wanted to give it the the widest berth possible yeah

Carter 52:49

yeah i totally agree our geography has given us lots of insight into that so we we've

Zain 52:54

we've seen what christy clark can do we know how good of a campaigner she is she might be one of the best campaigners we have seen in this country i'll say that i don't know you don't have to go on that ride with me but i think she is carter

Zain 53:06

you didn't mention her yeah

Zain 53:08

know you know of of her candidacy why didn't you mention her i know what do you what are your what is your your current thinking on her i

Carter 53:14

think that she's not going to uh not going to go i think that ultimately she's going to wind up coming in and saying that she's actually the next can't next next leadership is going to be her leadership um this just all seems like it's just a little too fast i

Corey 53:31

don't know i don't know how you run for a job in the shadows for six months plus and then not run when the job comes out she's been because it's like but but i do will say like

Corey 53:41

like the fact that I'm even saying these things about her is wild. She's generally seen more as a conservative than a liberal. And she didn't speak French a year ago. If she's learned French in the interim as an adult language learner. Like I

Corey 53:54

we've been both taking French lessons, right? She's

Corey 53:56

She's been taking them from me,

Corey 53:57

me, I should say.

Corey 53:57

She's been taking them from you. So she's a lot of growth. She's a zero growth. I mean, I really think that one of the things that the Liberal Party is going to care a lot about is that. And also, if

Corey 54:08

if there's no Quebec candidate to naturally suck up the Quebec vote, if you are the Anglo candidate that doesn't speak French, what

Corey 54:15

what chance do you have winning like what is about a fifth of the votes in the overall contest, right? That's going to put you at a massive disadvantage. Now that said, she

Corey 54:24

she might be able to pick up some votes in those liberal wastelands, right? She might be very appealing in those areas. And I think a supporter system doesn't hurt her, right? right we've talked about the pros and cons of it one of the so-called pros which many people see as a con is that it does make the barrier the psychological barrier lower like i don't have to buy a liberal membership i just register as a supporter i can help christy we'll

Zain 54:47

we'll talk about the candidates going forward carter i don't do transition material as you know um donald

Zain 54:54

donald trump's not joking is he no

Corey 54:57

course donald trump's not joking is he no zane he's not he uh it's been been pretty clear i think since december when he started making actual pitches not to connect not to americans but to canadians where he said like hey your taxes will be lower and you'll be defended by the army kind of ignoring things like health care guns you know all sorts of crazy shit but he is making like he's and of course now saying that he's going to use economic force to annex us that's not that's

Corey 55:24

that's not subtle and it doesn't seem like a negotiating tax so

Carter 55:26

so propaganda network his His propaganda network for Fox News is like, I think everybody wants to join him, the United States. You'd be lucky to join the United States. This propaganda warfare is started. You know, this is Russia interfering in our space already. But it's the United States instead of Russia.

Zain 55:47

I'm happy to appear as the least intelligent on this podcast. But I'll tell you, my wife asked me two hours ago a question I have no answer to, which I'm going to just turn over to you guys, which I should have an answer to. but I have no answer to, which is, could America, if they wanted, just do this?

Zain 56:03

Like, I know it sounds stupid, but it's actually not. It's like a very, like,

Zain 56:08

what's stopping them? And I know we've got all the, fuck you, Don, it's not happening. Canada will never be, you know, snowballs chanted. I know we've got the rhetoric from all our leaders. We're all on the same page on this particular thing. Multipartisan support for keeping Canada, Canada, Canada.

Zain 56:25

Corey, you know, at the heart of my question is actually a pretty, like,

Zain 56:29

interesting question I don't think we've actually teased out, which is, if America wanted to, what's stopping them?

Corey 56:35

Well, a couple of practical things, right? Maybe let's just start here.

Corey 56:41

This is, we've lived a pretty awesome existence as humanity for the past hundred years, like, and I will include even during some terrible times like like the world war is in that there is generally a sense of like, you can't invade somebody doing so as a terrible thing, but that's not really been the experience through most of human history. You know, often there'll be, there'll be causes belly, right? Like they'll find a reason to invade you. But some of the reasons have been as flimsy as you've insulted me or I need your resources, right? Like that's not a great cause for war and your neighbors would get mad at you, but people would just occasionally do that in centuries past. And this does seem to be almost threatening a return to that. Now, in a more modern sense of conquest, what usually happens is like a veneer of legitimacy is put on, like you

Corey 57:27

you impose a government and then the government votes that says they want you there. Think about Ukraine, right, where there's a referendum that happens after, and that referendum is in no way fair, but those areas vote then to join under the formal constitutional frameworks that are available to these people and under the precepts of self-determination abuses. use as they sure so to answer your question zane could america do this yeah there's a roadmap that is well worn by dictators everywhere of how to take over a country which is invade the country phony referendum then you are constitutionally a part of that country right and then they just try to legitimize it through a hundred different ways along the way and that would be an entirely through might kind of approach but the reasons why that's a little unlikely um a

Corey 58:14

well i really wish

Carter 58:14

wish it was a lot more than a little i wish

Corey 58:16

wish it was a lot more too but like

Corey 58:19

doesn't seem to me that there would actually be a lot of enthusiasm in the united states for invading canada outside of a few very fringe sectors and i think that that that would be a very challenging thing our defense uh is so integrated with the united states right that's both a threat to us but it's also a threat to them like how in the world would they even do it But when our air defense is so integrated, I'm not sure and I'm not privy to the mechanics of it, but I seriously doubt they can just flick a switch in Cheyenne and all of a sudden Canada doesn't have access to the things that are in Canada that are running our air defense. We're a part of all of these various treaties. It doesn't seem possible they could do it militarily. And so their only approach that

Corey 59:02

that seems half realistic is just putting pressure on us until we want it. And that will not fucking happen. Like you look at the polls, it's not there. right like there's there's just no level of support that's going to allow that so the bigger threat is they keep trying to do this and they keep putting up the temperature and they keep making our lives fucking miserable and

Corey 59:20

and we still won't join them right but it's going

Corey 59:22

to make things we

Zain 59:23

done because we're just focused i

Corey 59:24

i think that is yeah very much the more realistic case that we have here with a madman like that's the

Zain 59:31

case carter you want to take my take a stab at my what what's stopping them question like in its naivete and and tackle anything that cory hasn't mentioned

Carter 59:42

there are a series of reasonable people in government in the united states in the military in the united states i mean this isn't uh a reenactment of canadian bacon um with john candy a classic oh yeah a classic subgenre of the dave um

Carter 1:00:02

yeah i mean this is

Carter 1:00:05

are people who are reasonable throughout the

Carter 1:00:08

the government, and those people will stand in the way of lunacy. The problem is that there's going to be fewer of them. And if a defense secretary is tasked with the job of coming up with some sort of a plan to

Carter 1:00:22

to invade Canada, the

Carter 1:00:23

the truth of the matter is the standard things that stop us from invading another

Carter 1:00:29

stop any country from invading another country, are tenuous at best. as evidenced by the wars that are currently ongoing. If you want

Carter 1:00:41

want to be Israel, you can be Israel. If you want to be Russia, you can be Russia. I mean, there are aggressive

Carter 1:00:48

aggressive governments out there and it

Carter 1:00:52

would take nothing to take a Daniel

Carter 1:00:55

Daniel Smith style of premier and turn her into a useful idiot. it. And I fear that that's what she's being used as when she talks about going down to the United States for Donald Trump's inauguration.

Zain 1:01:10

I want to get to the premiers in a second here. Corey,

Zain 1:01:14

talk to me about where

Zain 1:01:16

where this leaves Canada from like a national response, right? We know he's not joking about the tariffs, or he doesn't seem to be joking about the tariffs. TBD on what what annexation brings. Like, I'm

Zain 1:01:29

I'm asking the same question I did earlier in a different way, now focused on the issue rather than the people. How bad is this for Canada right now as it relates to not having a prime minister with the moral authority to be able to respond?

Corey 1:01:43

Yeah, first of all, Stephen, I think there's miles difference between Russia and Israel, but we're at the hour one minute mark. So maybe we don't get into that now. I think the realistic problem we have and how bad this is for canada zane is that um i just don't know after all of these years and all of these tensions in confederation if we've got what it takes to even put a semi-cogent response forward to uh to the uh to the situation in front of us i i you look i let's play this out about 13 percent of canadians would support joining the united states over 80 no no no dice right even if you look in alberta i think in the leger poll i saw from december it was 19 okay yeah which is obnoxiously high in my opinion but it's still it's so the minority opinion that it would be insane for anybody to hop on board with it political leadership unified even maxime bernier saying that's never gonna fuck

Corey 1:02:38

off yeah right but

Corey 1:02:39

but somebody might break that hegemony at some point somebody might say oh let's hear them out

Corey 1:02:45

and then all of a sudden there's a couple of different people you feel like there's one to

Zain 1:02:48

to crack do you feel

Zain 1:02:49

feel like there's a name no

Corey 1:02:50

no i'm i don't and i don't think daniel smith is going to crack that way and i just i don't think any of that's realistic but i do think that all of a sudden 13 becomes 25 if things get rough and it's not that that means canada will disappear and become a state in the united states but it means that internally things are going to get really fucky in

Corey 1:03:09

in a hurry and our politics are going to get even more broken and unfortunately Unfortunately, there don't seem to be a lot of great ties that bind us here. And, you know, I was just, I was on Twitter, or I guess not even Twitter, Blue Sky, and I made, I don't know, I made some comment about, like, Canada needs to stand up for itself. I can't remember the exact tenor of it. And then somebody replied more on, like, clearly the more extreme left being like, well, I will never fight for Canada. We're just a colonialist nation. And it's like, well, fuck, you know, we're already lost if that becomes too broad of a concept, right?

Corey 1:03:43

I don't even know what to do with opinions like that. But I worry that there are just too many people who hold too disparate of opinions about what it even means to be Canadian to hold us together when times get really bad.

Corey 1:03:53

And again, it's not that that means we become a state, but it means we cease functioning as a nation. And that is pretty scary. And that has some consequences for our economy, for our livelihoods, you know, for the fabric that holds us together for the people in our lives.

Zain 1:04:08

Carter, this is naturally presenting from a raw politics six perspective a leadership vacuum you have a prime minister that may not have a moral authority to govern you have premiers that are trying to cobble their responses together they're making their own trip in february and you've got a leader of those premiers that is now looking to potentially use this sort

Zain 1:04:28

sort of power vacuum or this lack of leadership for his own political game strategically would you be in on doug ford calling an election in the next couple of weeks in ontario to secure a mandate to battle Trump?

Carter 1:04:43

You know, it's interesting, because I think in general, I'm not a big fan of taking advantage of these types of situations. But on the other hand, I think Doug Ford's been pretty good at managing this crisis. From a distance, it looks like he's done the best job of any Canadian, well, compared to Daniel Smith. So it's a low bar. I will concede the low bar of it. But I don't like it being used as a political football, but it is a political football. So Doug

Carter 1:05:13

Doug Ford choosing to leap on it and maybe making Canada a bit stronger and developing a little bit more national

Carter 1:05:25

maybe it's not the worst thing in the world.

Zain 1:05:27

Corey, what do you think? If Ford were to call an election, let's

Zain 1:05:31

leading up to or on the heels of inauguration for the President of

Zain 1:05:36

of the United States, would you be into that? Is that a strategically sound and wise move for Doug Ford?

Corey 1:05:42

kind of like it and i've

Corey 1:05:44

i've been given a bit of a glass half empty here but can i tell you what would be maybe a more positive spiral that we might find ourselves in as a country here

Corey 1:05:53

we get ourselves and our political leaders all and their supporters by extension and almost a bidding war for who can be the most patriotic and who can stand up the most for canada and doug ford starts us off the liberal leadership you just have a bunch of liberal leaders saying how how tough they would be. Pierre Poliev looks at that 80% to 13% I was just talking about and says, well, I don't want to be on the wrong fucking side of that. So he starts making strong comments. Maxime Bernier is making strong comments. Everybody's making strong comments about how they're going to stand up and defend Canada. And this squeamishness disappears, right? Like a patriotism returns. The Canadian flag becomes something people are proud to wave again. And, you know, I never know how I feel about nationalism kind of as a concept, but I will tell you, in a world where people have nationalistic feelings, I

Corey 1:06:41

I would rather have the type that Canada has than the type the United States has. And I do hope people stand up for this country in a world of countries. And, you know, it is possible that our leaders get there too.

Zain 1:06:51

Yeah. Carter, what do you think of that? He's right.

Zain 1:06:57

Corey, you don't hate the Ford thing. Would you advise it if you were advising him, though? Can I ask you in that way?

Corey 1:07:05

Yeah, you know what? I don't just not hate it. I gotta admit, I kind of love it, right? He's saying, for a couple of reasons. One is because I think it would actually potentially be advantageous in this fight with, you know, this spat with America. And the other is, it's brilliant politics, right? Tell me- So he's going out and saying- Is it better

Zain 1:07:23

better for him if Trudeau were still here, or is it only working when Trudeau, which he is now, gone? Talk to me about that dynamic.

Corey 1:07:31

I actually don't think it matters, because he's done such a good job of being his own spokesperson on this. But he's basically saying, I

Corey 1:07:39

I need a mandate from Ontarians to spend tens of billions that I might need to spend to go fuck this guy up. but

Corey 1:07:47

also if he does it riding that patriotic fervor riding that percent of the poll that i was just talking about there he then has a mandate to go fuck that guy up and

Corey 1:07:57

and that's pretty cool to me right like that's pretty cool that all of a sudden we've got a government putting tens of billions on the line saying yeah we're gonna we're gonna really wreck this guy's breakfast i'm okay with that i'm okay with that politically and i'm definitely okay with that as a canadian i'd

Carter 1:08:11

i'd love to see it from alberta because

Carter 1:08:12

because alberta's got a bigger hammer what

Carter 1:08:14

what would you what would you you like to see? What

Zain 1:08:16

What would you like to see from Alberta? And tell me, Carter, do you feel like there's meat on the bone to a criticism that I think one of the two of you put on the table of Smith going to the inauguration, going to the Trump inauguration? Is there meat on the bone there to criticize her for that? The premiers have already planned a trip in February where they're going to work their networks of Congress people and senators and other legislators to talk about this, and I believe government officials as well. Do you think there's meat on the bone for challenging her going to the U.S. in 12 days and attending the inauguration kind of like a fan?

Carter 1:08:48

Yeah, I mean, she's going as a fangirl. She's not going as someone who's standing up for Alberta unless, you know, standing up for Alberta is folding like a pup tent. I think that she has severely weakened herself and I would love to see an opposition party in Alberta that actually had the balls to stand up and say so. Unfortunately, I don't see right now an opposition party in alberta yeah

Corey 1:09:15

yeah it is a pretty quiet for the ndp right now it's hard to hard to ignore that for sure and i don't understand why because it does seem like her decision to go to inauguration is a pretty obvious point that you could could knock her against i do want to give the defense of danielle smith on this one though because

Corey 1:09:32

because while i don't agree with it i can understand why she might think she's being helpful going down there she

Corey 1:09:38

she thinks she speaks their language she's one of them she can talk to them and i will say i did appreciate in the premier's tweet yesterday that

Corey 1:09:47

that she talked about you

Corey 1:09:48

you know we're not gonna she said something to the effect of we're not gonna join but she's like listen we're we're

Corey 1:09:53

we're we're the globe's ninth biggest economy right and and i actually think that she made a point that not very many people are making like there's this narrative that's out there that

Corey 1:10:03

that we're just this small nation that he's he's picking on because he doesn't want to pick on the big bad nations like north korea or russia fucking north korea or russia i mean we have more people and a miles bigger economy than north korea we've got a bigger economy than russia right like we are not like this small timid nation we seem small next to the united states but we're a really big really powerful nation and part of that is because of this incredible friendship we've had with the united states but the reality is we're we're a multi-trillion dollar economy. We're not Panama. We're not Greenland. And while I don't think you should be picking on them either, I think we have gotten ourselves into this, oh, woe is us. He can just roll over us a little bit too quickly here. We forget we're a serious nation sometimes. We forget we're a G7 nation sometimes. We forget we're a powerful nation sometimes. And that's because we often compare ourselves to the biggest nation, the most powerful nation right but we're we're not a pushover like you couldn't just and go back to the point you sort of began on here yeah they

Corey 1:11:07

they can't just walk in here it would be fucking misery to try to take over canada for a hundred different reasons it would be fucking misery to try to take us over economically we have a bigger economy than russia how is economic pressure on russia working for everybody right just doesn't work that way this

Carter 1:11:23

this is where daniel smith could go further this This is Daniel Smith could go right in there and say, fine, you don't want our oil. The world wants our oil.

Carter 1:11:31

You put a 25% tariff on it. We'll put another 25% on it.

Corey 1:11:36

Well, so, but this is the thing. And this is why I think that Daniel Smith might think she's being helpful here. She can go down and she thinks I speak their language. I can talk to them. I can get it all to figure out. But I think she's, she's kidding herself. I think she's making a mistake. And I certainly think she's rewarding the wrong kind of behavior showing up to an inauguration. Damn

Corey 1:11:54

Tell me about this, guys.

Zain 1:11:57

You're one of the premiers. You could be Ford, you could be Smith, I really don't even care about your jersey color.

Zain 1:12:02

What do you want Trudeau to do? Do you want him to actually lead in this lame duck period?

Zain 1:12:08

And I'm talking about this both practically and politically. Or do you want him to disappear so that you can actually hold and fill that leadership vacuum practically and politically? What do you actually want? You're chief of staff to a premier. What are you suggesting to your principal right now around what they want the prime minister to do over the course of the next number of weeks and heading into the next number of months? Do you want him to disappear or do you want him to be there and take the fall sort of thing? Options. Carter, what's yours? My thinking

Carter 1:12:36

thinking is that we need

Carter 1:12:38

need strong national leadership right now. And the fact that Trudeau is the leader does not negate the need for him to be a strong national leader. And this is one of the challenges of running against the prime minister all the time, is every once in a while, like right now, you

Carter 1:12:59

you need a goddamn prime minister. You don't need a strong premier, you need a strong prime minister. And Trudeau, sworn enemy that he is to Alberta, also can be one of the great statesmen that can protect our economy.

Zain 1:13:15

Corey, your thoughts on this, and then let me know if you're willing to go down random speculation scenario planning avenue with me.

Corey 1:13:25

my thoughts i think we need a prime minister right now even if it is one who's a lame duck prime minister it's gonna have to take on a different flavor i feel like he's gonna have to lean on the authority as

Corey 1:13:36

much as i find this obnoxious of the premiers and pull them first ministers together and say folks i'm not gonna be here but

Corey 1:13:43

but we've got to hang together and we got to work together and here's some thoughts i have right now and what i believe that the government needs to do perhaps even easier with a no fox left to give trudeau uh government is say okay here's here's what we're going to do here's our escalating steps of retaliation i am going to uh i've called the ambassador i've told them if there's another comment about this we are going to expel the incoming ambassador or fail to recognize their credentials we're going to cancel donald trump's trademarks in canada we are going to ban fox news we're going to ban twitter we're going to put a massive tariff on teslas coming into this country and in fact i'm going to treat them exactly like we treat russian oligarchs because america's acting like a group of thuggish oligarchs right now this is a government by a bunch of billionaires who are just trying to push us around and not just us also denmark and greenland and so we're going to act accordingly here and these are things that do not do not make people's lives worse like it's not going to make americans lives worse and things more expensive it's not going to make canadian business in a in more of a bind but it's going to fuck them up and it's going to frustrate them and that's what we're going to focus on over the next bit here and he can rail against me all he wants he can talk about what an asshole i am he can talk about how i gotta go i'm going what

Corey 1:14:56

the fuck do i care and you guys can all say well i might be a little too far and tut tut but let's play within a certain realm of kabuki here where you never say like this is wrong you just say i don't know if i would have gone that far but i understand what the prime minister is doing

Corey 1:15:11

So let's do it.

Zain 1:15:11

And let's just fuck these guys up over the next month, and then we'll figure it out. So you guys are, this is interesting. You guys are both suggesting we need the PM involved.

Zain 1:15:20

Neither of you have said, go away. This

Corey 1:15:21

This is why the situation he's put us in is so intolerable.

Zain 1:15:25

intolerable. And you guys want to game this out with me? We need a prime minister. You want to game this

Zain 1:15:29

While he's prime minister, and while his party is actively engaged in a leadership race, Carter, he brings Pierre Poliev alongside with him, potentially even the other party leaders. What do you think of that?

Carter 1:15:42

I mean, let's do it.

Carter 1:15:47

this isn't a time for partisanship. This isn't a time for political game playing. If he can bring Pierre Poliev into a discussion about what the Canadian national identity needs to look like under this threat and what our responses are, then he should do so.

Carter 1:16:04

This is a minority government. What do you mean, if he can?

Zain 1:16:06

can? Of course he can. He could just do it.

Carter 1:16:09

Pierre Polyev is his own man. He gets to choose what he wants to do.

Zain 1:16:13

You think Pierre Polyev would reject that, saying, come sit with me at the next meeting

Carter 1:16:16

meeting with the premiers? I'd sure like to find out.

Carter 1:16:20

Let's make it happen. It's an interesting political play.

Carter 1:16:22

Make the play. All the shot. I

Zain 1:16:24

I mean, you could be clearly indicating the likely future, which I think everyone knows reading the polls, that you're pretty much suggesting this guy's going to be the- Sure,

Corey 1:16:31

Sure, but bring Singh, too. Right. Right, so you could bring the other party leaders, which was kind of the thing. Fuck, tell them to bring the provincial leaders of the opposition. Say, this is a Team Canada approach in the truest sense. We are all going to work together on this. Would

Corey 1:16:42

Would you actually do that?

Carter 1:16:44

Oh, yeah. Team Canada would be great. I consider it for sure.

Zain 1:16:45

They're meeting next Wednesday.

Zain 1:16:47

Would you suggest that that actually be the cohort? Bring Singh, bring Pauliev, right? Bring counterparties as they wish to. Like, you would actually suggest that, Corey?

Corey 1:17:00

probably want to think

Zain 1:17:00

think about it for more than the 10 seconds

Corey 1:17:01

seconds before i gave it out but yeah we've

Zain 1:17:03

we've got no accountability

Corey 1:17:03

accountability on this podcast

Corey 1:17:04

this is i think that i think that the last thing we need right now is people second guessing what happens at that table and everybody understanding the stakes so get them read in talk about it say this is what we're going to do we're going to be a country and we're not always going to agree and this is not a consensus model but i'm involving you in all of the decisions i'm involving my counterparts within the parliament i'm involving your counterparts within your legislatures and i understand that That the authority is yours. I'm not going to pretend they speak for

Corey 1:17:34

for your province. That's not what's going on here. I'm not trying to undermine you. I'm trying to make sure that as broad a representation of this country as possible is here to stand up to a very big threat. That we're all unified against.

Carter 1:17:47

This is one of the largest threats in Canadian history.

Carter 1:17:50

And it needs to be treated. I think it would

Corey 1:17:51

would also underline the severity of it. Can I ask

Zain 1:17:53

ask you another game out?

Zain 1:17:56

Trudeau would not have done this on Monday. Sunday, could

Zain 1:17:59

could he have actually done something with his political career this week? That sounds insane, because he's been dragging his heels for fucking months. But he may have chosen not just the worst time as it relates to leaving this country in a lurch, he may have chosen the worst time for himself. Because there was there was this opportunity, as we're just discussing right now on the table, to bring the entire sort of political leadership of this country together. Or am I just overstating this? And the actual opportunity was two weeks ago, or last week, or when Trump first got elected. I mean, part of me is thinking, man, if Trudeau would have waited, there

Zain 1:18:31

there could have been some real leadership he could have provided here that could have fundamentally changed the trajectory of how he maybe was thought about. Not his political fortune, but maybe how he was thought about.

Carter 1:18:42

There is something true about being heard on your way out the door.

Carter 1:18:46

You know, the reason you get up from the boardroom table and you walk to the door and then you turn around and you make an emphatic statement that you're on your way out the door, people

Carter 1:18:54

people will hear you in in that moment there

Carter 1:18:57

there they would never have heard him if he was just sitting at the front of the table again this

Carter 1:19:00

this is a unique moment now that he's got because he's leaving if he was still staying it would be uh

Carter 1:19:07

uh first of all a

Carter 1:19:10

mean he we still don't know if he's going to act

Carter 1:19:14

it's time to act and it would be great to see something um

Carter 1:19:17

um along what you're suggesting i would take fucking anything if

Carter 1:19:21

if he would just act like

Zain 1:19:22

like an attempt of something cory your thoughts on this before we wrap up no

Corey 1:19:26

no i feel very similarly it's tough to pinpoint exactly why but i feel like if he was still in the job and i think maybe more importantly fighting for the job his actions would be interpreted quite differently but if he's like i'm fucking out of here but this is the last thing i need to do is try to make sure that this country isn't as strong of a place as possible and maybe even if i were him i would say i

Corey 1:19:47

i acknowledge this is probably the worst time for something like this to happen and with the benefit of hindsight i should have left earlier i would even maybe own a little bit of that and

Corey 1:19:55

and say but now we're here one

Corey 1:19:57

one country united against this common threat you

Carter 1:20:00

you know he shows up with some edibles he says let's get creative you

Carter 1:20:04

2015 anyway it's all

Zain 1:20:06

all over again let's move it up to our over under our lightning round steven carter find

Zain 1:20:10

find fabulous or fucked mr

Zain 1:20:12

mr jagmeet singh watching everything that's been going down this week how should he be feeling things are fine things

Zain 1:20:18

are fabulous actually or

Zain 1:20:20

or things are fucked um

Carter 1:20:22

um things are uh fucked i mean mr irrelevant has just become even more irrelevant he doesn't get to speak he's not going to be heard for the next uh three months and then we're going to be in an election so he's going to spend three more months being mr irrelevant they go into an election the ndp uh could be facing uh a wipeout that uh that the liberals were facing a few minutes ago know do

Zain 1:20:46

you believe that as well cory and and i'm asking the same question fine fabulous or fuck for drug meeting i

Corey 1:20:52

i mean i don't think that this is a change in my score form but i think he's a little fucked i i ultimately well we know that his authority is going to go down under a poly majority government of course right and this um this does take a little bit of power and stage away from him here i don't know that um i don't know that his situation has materially changed or he's materially made it worse in the last week. But he was fucked before and he's fucked now.

Zain 1:21:19

Corey, you in or out on Polyev

Zain 1:21:21

Polyev going on Peterson?

Zain 1:21:23

Jordan Peterson, that is, for this 90-minute interview

Zain 1:21:26

interview about everything he cares about, this arguably this masturbatory exercise of laying it all out there.

Corey 1:21:35

I think I'm in. You're in. This is part of a common thread of going to long form, right? Right. The number of people I've talked to in the past couple of days, not

Corey 1:21:46

not even mostly conservatives, but I would say mostly nonpolitical people who said, did you hear that? That was really interesting. I learned a lot about that guy. Boy, he's really smart. He's got some ideas. Right. You should listen to that. the number of people who've said you should listen to that and i've just gone like i don't want to listen to that like you know what it's actually the jordan peterson thing that offends me more than the polyev thing but but like i just i can't bring myself to do it but people have really liked it and i don't know there's not that many moments you get to you get to hear people actively talking about an interview in

Zain 1:22:17

in 2020 despite the way i phrased it i'm actually with cory on this one uh carter but are you are you in or out on this i'm

Carter 1:22:25

i'm in i mean i think at the end of the day you

Carter 1:22:27

you got to find ways to be heard and to be seen and uh the

Carter 1:22:32

the joe rogan's the jordan peterson's the uh you know these these the the new uh the new right the new podcast class or whatever class class they are um the

Carter 1:22:46

the youtubers really they're uh they're

Carter 1:22:49

they're dominating so you you have to if you're going to be a legitimate uh contender for office

Carter 1:22:55

office you have to participate in this in this new in these new roles yes

Zain 1:23:00

yes cory you want to back clean up no

Zain 1:23:02

no i i mean i agree i think we should probably start a youtube channel okay yeah maybe we i think we have one we just barely use it

Zain 1:23:09

We should get Jordan Peterson on.

Carter 1:23:12

Yeah, probably. Yeah, we're a big guest show.

Carter 1:23:14

Yeah. Big guest show. Yeah.

Zain 1:23:15

Yeah. Carter, finish us off on this.

Zain 1:23:19

This leadership vacuum, this lack of moral authority to lead that Justin Trudeau leaves behind, doesn't have to leave it behind, as we just discussed, but it's there.

Zain 1:23:30

stands the most to gain from it?

Zain 1:23:39

You think Pierre Polyev? I

Carter 1:23:41

I think Pierre Polyev is still sitting in the best possible seat. He's in the position where he actually can control and dictate the outcomes.

Zain 1:23:51

Corey, I'm not trying to drive you to a specific conclusion, but you could look at the premiers, you could look at Pierre Polyev, you could look at any of his leadership contestants in the Liberal Party. Same question to you, who stands the most to gain from what Justin Trudeau leaves behind in this short-term leadership vacuum that he does leave?

Corey 1:24:09

Pierre Poliev, he's been given an enormous opportunity to show that he can be a statesperson when there's a vacuum of leadership at the federal level. But

Corey 1:24:17

But he also has the most to lose, because he's been given the opportunity to fuck it all up and show that he's not a statesperson as well. So it will be an interesting couple of months.

Corey 1:24:27

It will be tough for him because

Corey 1:24:28

because he does have an election to run. So he can't go pure statesperson and forget about the politics of it all.

Corey 1:24:34

But he can't swing at every pitch and he's going to have to think about how he presents himself as a defender of this country that is more concerned about that than making Justin Trudeau look like an asshole on his way out the door.

Zain 1:24:45

We're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 1846 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we shall see you next time.

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