Episode 1838: Like a G6

Annalise 0:01

Welcome to The Strategist, episode 1838. I'm your host, Annalise Klingbeil, and with you, as always, Zain Velji and Corey Hogan.

Zain 0:12

We did it. We're

Annalise 0:14

We're doing it. Have either of you heard from our buddy, Stephen Carter, at all recently? Yeah, I

Corey 0:22

he's alive. You remember how we did that live show? And listen, a little peek behind the scenes here for our listeners. People pay us to do those things. And our good friend, Stephen, was responsible for sending the invoice.

Annalise 0:36

That's a big mistake.

Corey 0:37

Yeah, he didn't do that. But then

Corey 0:39

then when the person followed up with him and said, hey, can you have the invoice? He replied and said, hey, sorry that took so long. Here's the invoice. But you know what wasn't attached to that email?

Annalise 0:48

this is the same stephen carter who who agreed that we would do this without knowing what date it was or that it was knowing

Corey 0:54

knowing that he wasn't there or that

Annalise 0:56

was in edmonton or where it was has he has

Zain 0:58

he gotten his pardon yet i

Zain 1:01

feel like that's someone who could use a preemptive pardon oh i agree yeah

Zain 1:07

yeah probably are you fucking kidding me if there was anyone in your life that you would want to give a pardon to stephen carter would it be stephen carter i

Corey 1:14

think Well, I think it'd be my son, personally. Would you give it to your son? After my son. After my son, Stephen. I

Zain 1:20

I would never give it to my son. Mark my words. Never. Never. Kind of think of Stephen like a son. I'm going to hire a press secretary just so she could say that she'd never give it to my son.

Annalise 1:28

Oh. Some bold words, Dan. I'm sorry. Okay. I

Corey 1:32

I like what's happening here. Yeah. I like what's happening. This is good. Good. You know what? This is very meta. Do

Zain 1:36

Do we give pardons in Canada, Corey? This feels like a Corey

Corey 1:40

Yeah, the pardon system does exist. There is pardons, but it doesn't happen in the same way. can't give a pardon like the

Zain 1:45

the day of the election to people can he i i think he you know what he should try not easily maybe

Zain 1:50

he's tried everything maybe that's what he should try just giving out pardons that's

Annalise 1:54

that's what's gonna help him yo

Zain 1:56

yo fuck that could move the polls pardons add it to the list pardons

Zain 1:59

you know what he should do

Corey 2:00

should pardon polyev and then everyone will say oh pardon him for being

Corey 2:06

being a fucking prick and

Corey 2:08

and then trudeau says i just want to move on as a country tree he wouldn't he wouldn't get the security clearance

Corey 2:14

wouldn't get the necessary security clearance i can't get and i'm pardoning him and that's all we're going to say about it

Zain 2:18

it yeah yeah and i'm not pardoning patrick brown and there's nothing to do with india that's all you said

Annalise 2:22

we're very good at it i'll figure it out god

Zain 2:25

god we're awesome oh my

Annalise 2:26

guys let's chat about some stuff a lot has happened since we recorded last uh we're gonna move on to our first segment which is uh similar to our first segment last time around tariffs we had a long Talk about tariffs last week. A lot has happened since then. I'm just going to lay some timeline stuff on the table and then we will get into it. So Monday night, last Monday night, President-elect Trump vowed to introduce 25% tariffs on Canada and Mexico. You may remember we recorded a podcast on Tuesday night. That's important. On Wednesday, Trudeau met with the premiers at an emergency meeting virtually. And then the premiers put out their own statements about the meeting.

Annalise 3:07

can get into that. On Friday, Trudeau met in person with President-elect Trump at Mar-a-Lago for dinner. This

Annalise 3:16

This was kept pretty quiet until, essentially

Annalise 3:18

essentially until it happened. There was people watching flights. Media reported heavily on the Trump-Trudeau meeting on Saturday. Trump put out a statement about it. Trudeau said thanks to Trump on Twitter. He put out a little thing on it. Saturday, also, Alberta Premier Daniel Smith put out a short three-sentence statement about the meeting, which we will get into. and then the last thing on Sunday Pierre Polyev had a news conference he stood behind a fix a broken border sign he demanded Trudeau fix the broken border I

Zain 3:49

we are caught up we were so right about that yeah we were so

Annalise 3:53

so you guys you were right about some things possibly not right about other things I don't think we hit

Zain 4:00

what were you not right I don't

Annalise 4:01

don't think we hit don't mention

Annalise 4:04

we hit on the Trudeau

Annalise 4:05

Trudeau meeting trump in person strategy when we got into this last week cory hogan was that was that in the realm of things that you thought we were going to be talking about a few days later no

Corey 4:16

no that wasn't on my bingo card i i listen i i think that the proof will be in the pudding we'll see how this all pans out for trudeau and frankly for us as canadians and given that this was always a half baked threat i guess it's not that hard to find a quarter baked solution and maybe we'll all be be fine at the end of the day but i don't i don't love the energy of the prime minister going down to the the southern palace of the of the new u.s president and i it really feels pretty supplicant you know like like we're down there to kiss the ring and and so maybe it gets us through this moment might might cost us in in interesting ways in the middle to long term but i guess i'll reserve judgment i i look at this with kind of a begrudging uh sure i i suppose maybe it'll what do

Annalise 5:04

do you think it's going to cost us i

Corey 5:07

think we have been training i mean i i think donald trump is an animal and i say that actually not with any malice i think that we are training him to know that when he makes a threat like this that he can get the prime minister of canada the leader of a g7 nation to hop on his plane and fly down not even to an official official you

Corey 5:27

know u.s government place but to his house to a to

Corey 5:35

that's which is what

Corey 5:36

looks like are you fucking

Corey 5:37

fucking kidding me those pictures are nuts and kiss the ring you know and i don't i don't love that i just don't i i mean again maybe zane made a pretty impassioned case last time for the the realist approach which says hey that's a pretty cheap price to pay to keep the 25 tariff off but i do worry about the long-term consequences I

Zain 5:57

have actually kind of converged with Corey a bit so so over the course of last week you

Zain 6:02

you know I think it's come into focus that we

Zain 6:07

we haven't even begun the season like

Zain 6:09

like this is supposed to be preseason and this is like and like and if you're a sports fan you know that no one tunes into preseason unless there's a fucking show and like you're you know or someone who's who's who's playing that wouldn't necessarily get minutes but this is a spectacle and the clock is at zero. still it's still at zero and so the fact is pre-game in a pre-season game you know that's so good right and and now you've got trudeau you know to cory's point tripping over himself to go kiss the ring daniel smith doing like 10 times that right to

Zain 6:43

ultimately yeah like trying to get covered uh by and and get noticed almost like notice me i am one of you and i exist up here please please notice me please put me in your cabinet uh right like that's the vibe she's given off right now and so i've converged with cory because small price to pay initially but yeah to cory's point this is like a reptilian pavlovian sort of response ring the bell i get a good feeling and you know and and i could just ring the bell anytime i want it's kind of nuts

Corey 7:14

it's it's a lot nuts but you know i guess what can i say it it

Corey 7:20

it might work and maybe Maybe it will be okay, but I'm not thrilled about it.

Annalise 7:26

Do you think there was a thought like at the beginning of like, hey, we just got to get face to face or like, let's have that as a goal? Or do you think and then let's work backwards? Or do you think it kind of happened in the course of conversations? Like just kind of talk to me about that in terms of the strategy of like, let's

Annalise 7:43

let's get together in person. Let's not tell people beforehand before it actually happens. And then you kind of touched on it, Zane, like the spectacle, the visuals that are coming out of that room.

Zain 7:55

Yeah. I mean, every Mar-a-Lago photo looks like it is an all-inclusive buffet, you know, down in Cancun, right? It's like, what meeting are you having with two world leaders where, like, any $259 hotel-paying guest can also eavesdrop on it? Can hear

Corey 8:11

in on it. And

Zain 8:12

And literally just go, like, beat the prime minister or the prime minister. Dude,

Corey 8:14

Dude, oh, man, fuck you.

Corey 8:16

Like, I'm sure that shit happens

Zain 8:16

happens throughout the time. There's

Corey 8:17

There's a picture of somebody photobombing them. Yes.

Zain 8:23

-state picture. Oh, my God. Do you think that goes up on the Dominic LeBlanc, Katie Telford house as a photo that we were proud to be in? Because they're in this photo, in this round table of 12. It looks like a tacky wedding, this situation. But the fact is that this is how they met. To Corey's point, Trump literally was like, yeah, let's have a, you know, or Trudeau was like, yeah, yeah, I'll show up wherever. wherever, wherever, whenever I'm here. And Trump's like, I don't move more than 10 feet away from this place. So you got to meet me here. So it's wild. But what

Corey 8:54

what is it? They're having the white

Zain 8:55

this night. I don't want to miss it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. The Michael Jackson impersonators on tonight. I don't want to miss them. He only shows up every second Tuesday.

Zain 9:09

Like, I don't want to miss the show.

Zain 9:11

Probably was a good fucking show, I bet.

Zain 9:14

Here's the thing. Here's what Trudeau and team are not wrong about, which is, and this

Zain 9:19

this is like a life lesson in some ways, as much as it's a political lesson, relationships can override a lot. And relationships can actually, you know, fundamentally make policy secondary or take a backseat. So what they're trying to do is forge relationships. They were hoping that they took, you know, Dominic, that they took Katie, that they took the Prime Minister, and someone would hit it off with someone around that table. Like, I bet you the strategy was nothing, not nothing, but fundamentally

Zain 9:47

fundamentally something like that. Let's see who we can hit it off with. Some of these people might be influential. We need to get into this new orbit, make some calls. Is anyone friends with Kash Patel? I hear that guy's going to be important, right? But seriously, this was a relationship building exercise to see if there was any vibe, right? If there was any vibe that they could present themselves, not as a bunch of liberal snowflakes, but be like, oh yeah, we can get along with these people. And I think that was fundamentally the purpose of the trip. And I think that was fundamentally a pretty good strategy. And I should suspect that more and more with Team Trudeau as part of their Team Canada approach. And what I'm fascinated by is, is they're ever going to, you know, tap

Zain 10:30

tap in from the benches, any of the premiers to kind of do this similar sort of work? This is where our friend Daniel Smith comes into the question. But yeah, this was just a straight up relationship building game.

Corey 10:40

Yeah, you asked, was this the strategy from the start? And I think we can now pretty safely say it was. We can't forget that Trudeau thinks that he knows the president. He probably even does know the president to a certain extent. Obviously, one

Corey 10:55

one of the pains in the ass about being a Canadian is you're always thinking about the United States. And for four years, he had to deal with Donald Trump, the president. And I'm sure he has many bags of tricks in order to deal with him, flatter him, get what he wants out of him. Sometimes he was effective, sometimes he was not in those four years, but he sure learned a fucking lot. I guarantee that's the case. And now he's ready to, probably better than any other G7 leader, walk in and have conversations with Donald Trump, armed

Corey 11:21

armed with the knowledge of who Donald Trump is and how Donald Trump acts. And Zane's right. I mean, ultimately, Trump is a relationship guy, but I think that there's actually something even more basic than that. The idea that you just kind of almost put a couple of pucks on net and see if you get any goals, right? Right.

Corey 11:38

People, when they meet in person, are better friends when they talk on the phone. They are better friends than when they think about whether they're friends or not. I'm sure that our listeners can think even in their own lives of somebody who they're like, fuck, I hate that guy. But when they're actually in the room with them and that person is all of a sudden charming, they're like, oh, they're not so bad or I'm OK with that person. And so listen, I'll just say this.

Corey 12:00

I think that the Trudeau government pretty wisely realized we can't let Donald Trump soak in this idea that him and Trudeau have a problem. So we go down and we're buds. And let's just reset this thing hard before anything bad sets in, like

Corey 12:17

like a 25% tariff.

Zain 12:19

I also want to add, I think there's, you know, I think Corey's bang on there. And in addition to that, I think, you know, the act of breaking bread with someone in particular, in that in-person setting, actually has a fundamental, like, evidentiary benefit, even more. This fundamental sort of like, if

Zain 12:45

if you have a meal with someone, it actually doesn't

Zain 12:48

doesn't just ingratiate you like automatically, but it has a greater likelihood of putting a relationship on a very different trajectory. And I think it wasn't just a meeting. I think dinner was like, you know, whosever idea was it was a smart invitation to either cast out, self-invite or accept. What

Annalise 13:06

What about the fact that he was the first? And I read reporting today, the Globe was saying that other countries are asking Trudeau's office for like insights and tips on how did this come together and how do we make it work when we get this meeting? Like, do you think the fact that he was first helps

Annalise 13:21

helps him in terms of the, helps Trudeau, I'm saying, in terms of the spotlight of like, hey, look at this meeting, look at these pictures, or is that, is that not helpful?

Corey 13:33

I think it's helpful, and it's not. I think it's helpful in the sense that certainly in that world leader class, they're going to say, damn, man, you got a meeting with Trump. What was that like? Tell us everything about it. What's the guy like? Has he lost his mind even more in the last four years? Yeah, on

Zain 13:48

on the WhatsApp group that Trump is not part of.

Corey 13:50

Yeah, the G6 is what the WhatsApp group is called. Yeah, it's the G6.

Zain 13:53

That's good. It's just a picture of Michael Jackson impersonator on Tuesday nights at Mar-a-Lago.

Corey 14:00

um so i'm sure it's helpful and that's and my god the amount of intelligence he got back and it does reinforce this notion of the special relationship and that's all positive but is it good in the sense that he was also the first that came rushing through the doggy door yeah

Corey 14:15

yeah to kiss the ring i'm not so sure and and i think with the like we don't know how this is going to unfold yet and obviously we need our leaders to sometimes even turn the other cheek and just do do what's right for the country and move forward. But I just can't help but wonder how many high fives there were and how clever everybody thought they were on Neville Chamberlain's plane back to London, right? Like, sometimes you meet with a person and you think, I got the better of them, and you look like a fucking fool after. And so we haven't, we haven't gotten through this. And that's, that's a crass parallel for me to draw. And the parallel I'm actually trying to draw is like, you can declare victory too early. And you don't actually know how these things are going to unfold and if we end up with a 30 tariff on uh on you know january 29th well then i don't think anyone's gonna be thinking too well the 30 tariff

Zain 15:04

tariff with the trump tweet or the trump truth social post be like as soon as he came down i knew he was such a fucking loser yeah he had a lip handshake oh my god what a terrible handshake he was like oh i'll use a knife and a fork and i was like you're gonna miss the michael jackson impersonator he's so good and he's like i don't care and i was I was like, third.

Zain 15:23

What is interesting, like, out of this, though, is that it seems like what has been actually, like,

Zain 15:29

like, the substance of it in

Zain 15:32

in its evolution, what I mean by the substance of it, the conversation of the tariff, that seems to be hardening rather than softening. That's at least my read. That this is, like

Zain 15:41

like with Danielle Smith's behavior, and I know you want to get to that, Annalise, but alongside

Zain 15:44

alongside Trudeau, the concept of a tariff being off the table versus on the table, that binary, I'd say it's been pro-tariff. You think it's more on

Annalise 15:54

on the table? I

Zain 15:56

think so right now. The conversation's really hardening towards Canada's percentage and what's going to be exempt rather than fundamentally getting it off the table. And one would question, perhaps with hindsight being their friend, because no one's smart enough to do it right now, whether Trudeau's visit hardened tariffs being a possibility versus removing it off the table. It's really hard to say, but it kind of feels like tariffs had a pretty decent week. Do

Annalise 16:24

Do you think on that plane ride down when they're going there for dinner, like are you divvying up roles

Annalise 16:32

roles or doing role playing of like, okay, you try and sit with this person and I'll do this angle and you do this angle? Like talk to me, having been in those back rooms, obviously

Annalise 16:42

obviously you weren't on that plane, but like what you would think is happening as they're going to this dinner?

Corey 16:50

for meetings like that, you are often putting together what you think are almost like the most likely scenarios, worst case scenarios, how you're going to react to questions, the overall vibe you're trying to create. If you're smart, you're thinking about the goals, the key messages, things of that nature. And I'm sure they were saying things like, okay, well, no matter how insane he like makes a claim about the border, like we react with this tone, and we just keep bringing them back to this fact. And we just keep repeating, you know, Canada and America are great friends and we don't take the bait. And, you know, I'm sure there was an awful lot of that on the way down as they were thinking about those roles. It was probably an awful lot of, okay, well, Justin, you're going to be the one who talks to Donald Trump because he really respects like the leader and he doesn't want to be talking to a second in command. So you talk to him and we'll try to sidebar with all of the other people who we think might be quite influential, like the Commerce Secretary. And we'll divide it up in this way. And we know that, you know, Katie has a good relationship with, I don't know, right? Like, whatever it might be, that's probably the thinking that they're doing around there. And in my experience, these do tend to be like you prepare for the worst, and then you're pleasantly surprised kind of preparations and then meetings because, again, people are – even Donald Trump, nicer

Corey 18:04

nicer in person than he is online, nicer in person than on the phone. Like, it's just human nature. And Zane's not wrong that when you get people together for a meal, there is something to that. That's why first dates happen in restaurants, right? Like, it's just like it's a – it gets people's guard down. And there's something literally reptilian brain about that too, right? You're sharing food, you feel safe, you're in an environment like that. Now, that's all great for the moment. I

Corey 18:31

I remain concerned that I'm

Corey 18:33

I'm not sure what the Prime Minister does if all of a sudden, there's a Fox News thing about how Trudeau thinks that he's really gotten the better of Trump and that he's smarter than Trump and he's negotiated it. and then all of a sudden trump is screaming shitty nicknames at him like true don't know what he's doing the maple syrup marxist you know or hairdo justin came down and he thought that he could convince me to do what uh was was in his interest but i'll tell you canada's cry baby doesn't get anything over on me like whatever it is you know we're gonna get the old donald trump treatment potentially and then what do you do because at that point you've really gone out out on a ledge you've really raised

Corey 19:12

raised the stakes for yourself that this meeting goes well because this will look uh pretty bad in contrast you can

Annalise 19:17

can like tell how old your kids are based on those insults trudeau don't know anything you cry baby love

Annalise 19:30

think that not um not

Annalise 19:33

not talking about it until like after it happened like not it was It wasn't like the news out of the meeting

Annalise 19:39

meeting with the premiers on Wednesday was like, hey, and we're going to try and get a face-to-face. Like, no,

Annalise 19:44

wasn't on the prime minister's official itinerary or anything like that.

Annalise 19:48

Do you think that was, one,

Annalise 19:50

one, maybe just because they didn't even know if it was going to happen until they were actually down there? Or do you think a bit of that was like, hey, let's not talk about it until it happens and we'll see how it goes because it could go really bad?

Zain 20:00

Yeah. Oh, go, Corey. I was going to say column A, column B. So we're going to say the same thing different ways.

Zain 20:07

great next question um

Zain 20:08

um yeah uh fake fake friendly justin uh carbon copy justin keep yelling

Zain 20:14

drama teacher justin these are pretty good keep yelling

Annalise 20:16

yelling those those that's good two

Zain 20:18

two face trudeau okay

Annalise 20:19

okay last two face trudeau last two face

Corey 20:21

face trudeau i could see that's pretty good two face that was pretty good last

Annalise 20:24

last one before we get into the daniel smith stuff is just the statements that came out from both of them about this so um justin trudeau had like the picture of the two of of them.

Annalise 20:34

Thanks for the dinner last night. He said, President Trump, I look forward to the work we can do together, comma, again.

Annalise 20:41

How can you give listeners like a glimpse of how much effort goes into those if I guess maybe the answer is not much, but like into those 20 words, it's like short, it's sweet, like how much workshopping, Corey, you know, this world goes into the like, Like, hey, what are we going to say about how this went?

Corey 21:00

A ton, especially in foreign affairs circles. And actually, I think this is one of the more normal things that happened, right? Which is after the meeting, they both then put out statements what they thought the meeting was like. And to a certain extent, they aligned, right? And that is almost severely normal given everything else that's going on. And obviously, it's a little abnormal that he's not even the president yet. had former

Corey 21:24

former presidents are called president in the united states by the way i don't read anything into it and certainly i think if he had called him former president or president-elect trump could potentially get upset so why

Corey 21:34

wouldn't you use that the title but um the uh the hat tip i

Corey 21:43

was gonna say the uh the plane ride back i'm sure that the same group of people who were saying okay you do this you do that let's talk about it you know all of the staff that are involved all All of the people that were there are sitting there trying to craft the thing that they think will perfectly put a bow on it. And and then I think probably

Corey 22:00

probably Donald Trump's team had a little bit less thought about it. It probably fired it out a little bit less thoughtfully. I think a

Annalise 22:07

a little less, just

Annalise 22:09

just a little. I do think. But, you

Corey 22:10

you know, ultimately they did a lot. And so I think that is that is actually almost normal. What happened there?

Annalise 22:18

You have more insults, Zane? More name calling? He wouldn't even pay

Zain 22:22

He just showed up. He wouldn't even offer to pay.

Zain 22:26

No, I've got nothing else other than to add that I think the again at the end was very strategically placed.

Annalise 22:32

I liked that comma, again.

Zain 22:35

Well, it's very much a mega

Zain 22:37

mega hat tip, I would say.

Zain 22:39

And it leaves that open for interpretation for those who think it isn't. But yeah,

Corey 22:43

yeah, I think that was cute. There aren't really accidents, I think, to your point, Zane, in statements like that. I mean, there are accidents, but every single word is swatted over. They really think about it. And that's true even of much lower stakes communiques after meetings with important people and between important people.

Annalise 23:02

Okay, speaking of words, let's talk about Premier Daniel Smith's response. Why don't I read it? And then do you want to dissect it? Corey, I know you have a lot of thoughts. Do you want me to read the whole thing or like sentence by sentence and you'll get into it? You can go with

Corey 23:16

with your heart. It's three sentences. Three long

Corey 23:19

sentences. It's long sentences. Yeah. But it's three

Annalise 23:21

So this came out. My

Corey 23:23

My graded teacher would say it's runoff.

Annalise 23:24

runoff. This came out on Saturday morning. It says, it is telling that one of the primary topics of discussion between incoming President Donald Trump and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was oil and gas pipelines. lines.

Annalise 23:35

It once again demonstrates that the path to strong security and economic relationships with the United States is directly tied to our nation's commitment to providing the United States with the oil and gas it requires to achieve its energy security and affordability goals.

Annalise 23:50

We therefore reiterate our call to the Prime Minister to immediately scrap the Canadian oil and gas production cap and work with Alberta and all provinces to secure the border from illegal drugs and illegal migrants, and critically to commence work on additional pipeline infrastructure between Canada and the United States.

Annalise 24:07

Corey Hogan, what do you think of that statement?

Corey 24:10

I think it is, I was saying to you guys on the group chat, you could write a whole master's thesis just on these three sentences. It tells us so, so much. And I think that there is a couple of individual components that we should break into. But before we even get there, I think it really shows a desire to be in the conversation in a big way. So much so. And

Corey 24:34

And in the conversation in the United States, because if it was to a Canadian audience, you wouldn't call it the Canadian oil and gas production cap, right? You wouldn't. This is designed to talk to an audience in the United States. This is designed to be picked up by Newsmax and Fox News. This is designed potentially to get the ear of the president of the United States.

Corey 24:53

I am really doubtful that she's going to be successful at doing that. And so I think that before we even get into this statement, I do want to do a bit of a reality check of why I think this is ultimately a pretty futile attempt to get into the conversation by the Premier of Alberta.

Corey 25:07

Trump is mercurial, but I mean, the comp, I'm going to try to draw a comp. Imagine that the governor of, let's even say like an important state, like, well, not too important, like Pennsylvania, was tweeting at the Prime Minister of Canada.

Corey 25:23

Canada. Is Justin Trudeau going to respond and engage? No, for 100 reasons he's not. One of the primary ones being he's a prime minister. He talks to presidents. He doesn't talk to governors. And so there is a certain understanding that that is where the conversation is. And you give up your own power to them when you elevate somebody who's at a subnational level like that. Like, imagine Trudeau having a special relationship with a premier in Australia. You know, he calls up, you know, he's like, I was just talking to Chris Minns of New South Wales. And, you know, we've come to this conclusion about the Australian government. That's never going to fucking happen. That's not even going to happen with Trump as president, right? Because that's just not how international relations work. And that's not how politics work. It would diminish him. It would diminish Trump to elevate the premier of Alberta too highly. So he's just not interested in it. And

Corey 26:14

it's just never going to happen like that. I actually shouldn't say never in Trump's role. I will give you the

Zain 26:20

the exact opposite take. I'd say in the next six months, Trump name-drops Danielle Smith because she's going to be so thirsty for that. She's going to escalate this. But keep going.

Corey 26:31

I think that he won't because I don't even think he could name all 10 Canadian provinces, let alone premier.

Corey 26:41

But it just doesn't happen. like the prime ministers don't talk about you know people

Corey 26:46

people at the subnational level presidents don't talk about people at the subnational level of people outside of their country that just doesn't happen and it doesn't happen for an awful lot of reasons but but that's exactly why i think it's a bit wild that she wants to get into this conversation like this because ultimately

Corey 27:01

even if she is successful six months from now those six months of thirsty attempts

Corey 27:05

are not going to reflect particularly well on her here's here's what's gonna go

Annalise 27:10

No, you lay out what's going to happen, Zane. Lay

Zain 27:12

Lay it out. She is going to. Okay, this

Zain 27:16

this is unbelievably desperate. It is so thirsty. It is trying to get in the conversation the most ham-fisted way. But I think she's going to be successful. And here's how I think she's going to be successful. Two-step process. Number one, the right-wing American podcasts that have had her in the past are going to have her again. She's making enough noise to get on Jordan Peterson, fellow Albertan, by the way. but he's considered part of the right wing American podcast universe. I wouldn't be surprised if she gets on a Megyn Kelly or a Coleman Hughes or something like that. Right. And Trump is going to notice I think she's going to become a name very simply. She's not going to stop this. And one thing I think that we

Zain 27:55

we have to understand.

Zain 27:57

And by the way, this doesn't move the needle politically whatsoever, perhaps makes things much, much worse for Alberta and Canada, just to be clear. But we're talking about Daniel Smith's media profile here, and trying to get into the the U.S., she's actually a very good communicator. She's very good at this. She runs the province like she's a talk radio show host.

Zain 28:14

And the only time that is valuable is

Zain 28:18

is when you're trying to get on to talk radio in the United States or in this country. And so she brings the core competency one would need in order to be noticed. And I would say that's not for nothing. In fact, I'd say that that's her principal skill right now, is that she says the right words, she's got that right-wing radar and she's actually moved further to the right over the course of her political career i think she could very easily get noticed for alberta oh it's it's i think it's total fuckery but for danielle smith if she wants to get into the conversation line up her next gig wherever that might be i mean she's premier of a province with 92 approval rating so i and i'm not saying that you know she's going anywhere anytime soon at least from her own party but yeah man like she's a fan of tucker carlson and she very much uh still wants to keep that door open i i've always believe that about danielle smith even while she's in the premier's chair and she's not gonna waste this opportunity and by the way to be clear as we said before we're still in the fucking pre

Zain 29:14

-season like we had this hasn't even started yet she's gonna be much thirstier as things go on and she finds the opportunity to do so but that's so cory

Annalise 29:21

cory because it's like it's nuts when you when you think about it and you think that she's a premier and okay what is the end game But then Zane kind of makes like a case for, yeah, that bigger profile, but it's still nuts. Like, Corey, what do you think is the endgame here of being thirsty and wanting to be such a big part of this conversation?

Corey 29:47

think the end game is that she elevates herself. She elevates Alberta. She makes Alberta a bit of a model. She draws attention to Alberta. She maybe even gets investment to Alberta in her mind, right? And she thinks like, hey, I'm trying to create a free market utopia here. So why don't you all come and join us in this free market utopia? I think there's a couple of problems with that, though. One is, it's funny to say, but when you look at how Daniel Smith is governing, she's not actually governing that right wing. She doesn't have a lot of things she can point to and say, see, we're the right wing Canada model. No, she's governing in a much more populist sense. She's a little all over the place with moves that it would be tough to peg down. I mean, just last week, she was basically nationalizing environmental data, right? That's not a small government approach to things. And there are other examples of that if you look at it over the past, I don't know, 36 months of her running and then being premier. It's just, it's not so clean. she can't be held up as this model as this totemic right winger in Canada, because that's just not how she's governed. It would be pretty tough. Outside of social issues, I think to make any kind of case on that. And frankly, there are Americans who are far more to the right than her on social issues. There are Canadian premiers who are arguably more to the right than her on social issues. So I just don't think she can be the model she wants to be there. But all of that that is almost secondary. I just, listen, I don't, it's tough. This is tough medicine for many Canadians to swallow, but I'm just going to say it. Americans do not think about Canada.

Corey 31:18

Canada. They don't. They couldn't name 10 provinces. They certainly couldn't name 10 premiers. It would be about as effective as them being asked who is the, who is like the governor of Baja, California, or any of the other Mexican states. Fucked if they know, they might hear them on a podcast. They might think of them as a curiosity, but they're never going to elevate them into international conversation in that way. Will she be on more podcasts? I'm sure she will. Will she potentially get the ear of some of the bigger thinkers in Trump's orbit? Yeah, that's a real possibility too. Could Trump weaponize her against Trudeau if he decides that he really wants to go for the jugular? 100%. But even that is pretty fleeting popularity, because the minute Pierre Polyev is in there, he's

Corey 31:58

he's never going to mention Daniel Smith's name again, if he even gets around to mentioning it between now and next October. over there

Zain 32:05

there there's an interesting question around like what daniel smith's political project here and it's in some ways it seems like she wants to even prior to appear showing up on the scene officially uh

Zain 32:15

as as prime minister she kind of wants to be the leader of the conservative movement it's a very fascinating sort of role that she's trying to establish for herself or you know redo the resistance cover that we saw in mclean's with her being at the forefront of it you know i think the only person left from that cover is ford if he was on it and i might be wrong um but he's no No longer

Zain 32:34

conservative in the way that Danielle Smith and Pierre Palliev are. So it's fascinating to see what political projects she's on, perhaps more even domestically. I know we're talking about a profile outside of the four walls of this country, but it's interesting to see what she's trying to do within the four walls of this country.

Annalise 32:50

Corey, do you agree

Annalise 32:51

agree at all with Zane's idea of like this is about long term career hosting bigger audience?

Annalise 33:01

that like it sounded crazy Zane when you first started saying it and then as you said it more I was like no I say it all the time people think people

Zain 33:07

people think I'm nuts every time I say it I've got it's been shut down but I think she's always keeping an eye on it she also knows how fickle her world is as conservatives she could be gone as a conservative premier any day now that's why I added the caveat that she's got 92% support from her membership but

Zain 33:21

but fuck 92% could dissipate extremely quickly we know that as well so she'd be crazy not to leverage this for what she sees as a natural home for her as i add to my argument and i don't let correspond yeah

Corey 33:35

think that she might even want to be a pundit in act two and certainly a pundit in the united states pays a hell of a lot better than a pundit in canada right so maybe maybe that's uh maybe that's something she can do in the future but i

Corey 33:49

i i don't know like if if the idea is that you are okay if that is your goal i guess i can see a path for her to do that but where we started was her goal is to to be involved in international relations and to actually be part of this conversation between the president and the prime minister between canada and the united states and i'm just less convinced that she's going to be that right could be weaponized for sure i think that's this is my thing i actually think that premiers can be used as negative examples by the president of the united states and your premiers don't agree with you they're not even with you i

Corey 34:22

don't know that they can be positive examples saying well we've got a great relationship with them so we're going to modify things and we're going to do well i can buy into that completely i

Zain 34:28

i agree with that completely that's

Corey 34:29

that's and so yeah

Corey 34:30

yeah and so i do think it's uh it's an interesting path that she's trying to walk and i do think she is i since i think she's sincerely trying to engage in this because she sincerely thinks that because of who she is and the governor she's met and the and the contact she has in her rolodex that she will be more effective at this than trudeau and whether you believe that or not What I'm saying is the position she holds and the position that Trump holds and the position that Trudeau holds just boxes her out. Nobody is going to deal with a subnational government on these particular moments unless it's to hit somebody over the head with it. That's it. That's all I'm saying here. And so I think that when I see a note, like a statement, like Daniel Smith put out, I think I

Corey 35:15

I can see so much about what you're trying to do just based on the words you chose, the way you phrase certain things. And it's just, it seems so unlikely to work that it kind of makes me think you've got to reorient yourself to a reality that exists that perhaps you're not seeing, which is you are a premier, not a prime minister. And while you're a big deal in Canada, you

Corey 35:35

you are nobody in the United States.

Zain 35:38

So Corey and I just think there's two different goals here. I actually don't think fundamentally she's trying to shift the conversation. I think she's using that as a guise. The border patrols, the fence at all, the agreement with Trump. I honestly just fundamentally, legitimately believe that she is just trying to get noticed. That there is a loyalist and an ally on the other side of the border, get to know my name. And

Zain 35:58

And if that can lead to something, whether that benefits Alberta or not, that's all secondary. That is how I see Daniel Smith playing this. I do not think this is a good

Zain 36:10

let's get rid of the tariffs on oil and gas exemption strategy. This is a Daniel Smith, you

Zain 36:15

you know, notice me strategy.

Annalise 36:17

Corey, what do you think the ultimate strategy, the end goal of this three

Annalise 36:21

three sentence statement is?

Corey 36:24

well i mean i ultimately believe she is trying to put

Corey 36:28

put herself as a voice on that international level and i you know when you okay let's go through these three sentences real quick here

Corey 36:35

here no take your time

Annalise 36:36

time let's do it really

Corey 36:37

really really talks multiple times about the value of oil and gas pipelines you know providing the united states with the oil and gas it requires goes back to affordability which i think the affordability line is basically the only thing that was on message in all of it right? Because you're talking to Americans and affordability in the United States, right? And you are talking about providing oil and gas to the United States and that being part of energy security. I don't think many Americans think of Canada as providing energy security to them. We do. But again, it goes back to that American psychology. And they would generally see their energy sovereignty coming from themselves because they're Americans and America defends America and America supports America. So I read through that and I think, okay, well, you're trying to make it all about oil and gas and and in the you know the so-called readout certainly they talked about that i think that again this is one of those funny things when you're the prime minister and you're sitting there in mar-a-lago and you're thinking about the things that will be pain points for the prime or president of the united states of course oil and gas is going to be very high on your list you know so you're going to use that as the wedge you're going to use that as the conversation and maybe you want to hear that and say well so daniel smith is right so we should really be be talking about oil and gas and the need to be secure and all of that but you somewhat undercut that by then talking about all of these pipelines that you want to see too and turning it from a give to an ask right i am going to give you oil and gas or we could use another pipeline here mr president what are we trying to do here and and i think she's just trying to have her cake and eat it too when

Corey 38:08

when we get into the second part where they reiterate the call to the prime minister to scrap the canadian oil and gas production cap you know the canadian oil and gas production cap and work with alberta and all provinces to secure the border from illegal drugs and illegal migrants again you're trying to have your cake and eat it too you're you're dealing with this internal fight but then you are turning around and clearly communicating to an american audience acceptance of that message it's so interesting to me that they wrote this statement which was i feel like originally designed this

Corey 38:40

this is one of these classic examples like when you like at Natalie, as you work in PR, Zane has some passing knowledge of communications.

Corey 38:48

When you have such different audiences and you try to make a message speak to both of those audiences at the same time, it comes out like this statement. It

Corey 38:56

comes out like this statement. It's like every sentence in this three-sentence thing is, here's the Canadian audience part, here's the American audience part, let's go. But it undercuts both of them. And I just, I think it's just, it's such an interesting look into where this government is. So

Annalise 39:13

So why not just make the statement longer?

Corey 39:17

I don't know. I don't know why they didn't make it longer. I don't know why they didn't just turn it into two statements. I don't know. I mean, I suppose that

Zain 39:24

It's trying to parrot her idol. This is very much Trumpian in how it's constructed. It's also Trumpian in the sense that... And one thing I wanted to add is that Danielle

Zain 39:36

Danielle Smith and Donald Trump do have one thing in common that we've noticed over the course of the last, I'd say, two weeks, is that their desire to have imaginary problems and imaginary solutions be constructed, right? Like with her and Emissions Caps and Sovereignty Act just today, and him with like, yeah, this is a problem. Canada, it's your problem, too. It's not a real problem for Canada. The fentanyl and the migrants at our border, it's like not a real problem. And we're going to be offering an imaginary solution to that problem. Daniel Smith, and I know everyone like clutches their pearls when you make a Trump comparison to any other politician. I'm not making an ideological comparison. I'm making a political sort of theater and act and tact comparison, which is she's very much Trumpian in the sense of having, you know, imaginary problems that don't exist and creating theater out of it and then proposing imaginary solutions that kind of solve it all for political gain. and and it's fascinating but i think one of the reasons it's short is she wanted to shop it around

Zain 40:34

and she wanted to be very much like the way of american pr uh sort of political pr right now which is we saw it during the election we've seen it through trump he may have even influenced what we've seen during the election two three four words four sentences being like almost like yeah explicit fuck you's like this is what's up um she's very much in that lane and swimming in those same waters well

Annalise 40:54

well to cory's point about writing a master's thesis on it like the length Length itself, I think, is fascinating. Gettysburg

Zain 41:01

Gettysburg length, I call it.

Annalise 41:02

it. It fit on Twitter X, like in terms of on one, you

Annalise 41:08

you didn't have to do a thread. But Corey, do you want to speak just like from that Calm's view on, and you touched on it, on the different audiences and the length and that sort of thing. But like, why not do two

Annalise 41:20

two different statements or why not do something longer? it's not like she does you know the short suite often

Annalise 41:28

often she does longer things as

Corey 41:30

oh yeah well and and you could easily imagine construction that says like you know to albertans to canadians to americans and then she could talk to each of the audiences along the way here i do wonder if part of why it was written the way it was was to give ourselves a bit of cover because she is essentially engaging in international affairs in a way that many would consider inappropriate appropriate, right? This is a federal responsibility. Why are you getting involved in this? So you make it almost feel like it's designed to be talking to Albertans or Canadians, but clearly based on your choice of language, the words you use, the way you phrase certain things, you are talking to the United States or you're attempting to. I don't think that it got exactly stellar pickup in the US of A, right? So yeah, maybe it's just as simple as that to provide political cover. But maybe it's not so simple. Maybe she is doing exactly what Zane said, and she's trying to create this tight Trumpian style format that he would potentially read and say, yeah, I mean, I love that. I love that. I love how short and to the point that is. It's tough to say, but it's certainly a stylistic choice that I think leads to some tortured prose. And I'm not necessarily sure I would have recommended it if I were the Premier's communications team okay

Annalise 42:47

uh anything else saying that you wanted to talk about in terms of the statement or should we should we move on to polyas response to fix our broken borders

Zain 42:58

uh no the statement other than what cory's mentioned there

Zain 43:02

there are so many other proof points of ironhound this is tailored for an american audience including illegal migrants which we don't use as a term really all that often here yeah we borrow it a lot but we don't use it really like in our politics that's very much an american term right we talk about undocumented migrants asylum seekers other terms i'm they're escaping me at the moment but i just i just feel and know in my bones that this is not one of them yeah

Zain 43:25

that we use and so if you needed more proof points the illegal drug i don't have it in front of me the illegal drug trade and illegal migrants yeah that's very much like if you wanted proof who this was for uh

Zain 43:35

uh even more proof there you go

Annalise 43:38

Corey, closing words on Daniel Smith's statement.

Corey 43:42

Well, I think this is watch this space and she's going to have two options if this continues not to get the kind of pickup that I think both Zane and I believe she wants to get, although for different reasons, right?

Corey 43:54

Either she's going to elevate the volume and get even louder and try even more, or she's going to stop or downplay it or move back into the background on this particular one. hard to imagine the latter simply because that's just not been her style at any other point but i guess we'll see and

Corey 44:11

and ultimately i won't be surprised if she takes a bit of a pause here to see how this lands with trump and if things get rocky again then inject herself back into the conversation in a big way okay stay

Annalise 44:21

stay tuned um just briefly uh polyev's response you know having his his press conference his uh fix the broken borders that

Annalise 44:31

that key messaging do you like

Annalise 44:35

good strategy bad strategy what what if you guys were advising what should he be doing right now as all this other wild stuff is happening

Corey 44:45

canadians think the borders are broken i mean i i know we think that immigration is too high

Corey 44:50

Do we think the borders

Corey 44:52

borders are broken? I really do.

Zain 44:53

do. You tell me,

Corey 44:55

me, Corey. I mean, this is worth like three podcasts, but I have to say, as much as we've all been skeptical of Justin Trudeau and this idea that the liberals will be back in the game because they know how to deal with Trump and Canadians are going to see them as a serious player. Yeah.

Corey 45:10

Team Toronto. Jesus. I mean, I haven't seen any polls move yet, but it kind of starts to feel like there might actually be a there there, you know? No, because between him going down and, you know, people definitely turning their heads and saying, well, that's interesting to Mar-a-Lago, even if people like me are way less enthused about it. Plus, Pierre Polyev doing stuff like this where he almost can't help himself and he seems to be propping up a man who, let's be very clear, is so incredibly unpopular in this country. You know, Donald Trump would, Kamala Harris would have won in an insane landslide if the election was held. In Canada, yeah. in Canada, right?

Corey 45:50

And so when it looks like you're carrying the water of Donald Trump, especially against the interests of your own country, do

Corey 45:56

do you really want to risk that? Like, I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on it, Zane, but I

Corey 46:02

I don't know why fix the broken border would serve any purpose for you. I

Zain 46:06

I feel like anyone's sycophantism can now be justified with being as part of like, but I'm doing it for Canada. I'm doing it for Alberta. Danielle Smith has that cover too, right? Like, she's clearly ideologically, she's not doing it needfully. She's not doing craftfully, but she's definitely like, she's doing it. And she's saying, well, but this is because of Alberta. It's not because of me. Pierre Polyev may have that same sensibility. I'm not saying he does. I don't think he's necessarily kind of shown any sort of allegiances to Donald Trump. But you've got three people here, Trump, Smith, and Polyev, who can't, to your words, can't help themselves. They just cannot not be who they are.

Zain 46:41

And the reason we told Pierre Polyev this is not a good idea, I think are still justified this week as much as they were last week. But the fact is, we could have literally scripted, I think we almost scripted what he was about to say. You did. Like between the three of us, I honestly think we did. And it's not because we're amazing at what we do, it's because he's predictable at what he does.

Zain 47:01

And what he was being was unbelievably predictable. And to Corey's point, one

Zain 47:05

one of the reasons, if you're Team Trudeau, that you think you have a chance here is because everyone is kind of playing their part. Danielle Smith is playing her part. Pierre Polyev, you know, trying to hold off for 36 hours. And then he said, fuck this. This is insane. How is this guy

Zain 47:22

to Mar-a-Lago and meeting with Trump and I'm not even in the conversation? Like, Polyev has had an interesting, almost Trump-like effect in the Canadian media cycle. Once again, not making a direct comparison on ideology here, but from like strategy intact, is that every day has been a Pierre Polyev day. Either he's been kicking down the prime minister or he's been taking control of a policy or he's been doing something. Think about the last time we've been talking about the prime minister in a positive way outside of maybe a couple of pre-budget announcement things seven months ago. Pierre Polyev is our Canadian political ecosystem. And the fact that he wasn't for three days, that he wasn't mentored at the premier's meetings, that he wasn't Doug Ford at the head of the premier's council, that he wasn't Justin Trudeau heading to Mar-a-Lago probably expedited what we thought was good, at least what I thought was going to be a couple of weeks going for Pierre Polyev before he broke. broke but nope he broke he got the visuals and he did the thing that that the chat gpt of the podcast could have predicted do

Zain 48:16

need it we need our own gpt card do

Annalise 48:17

do you think though if

Annalise 48:19

if he keeps like

Annalise 48:21

like okay if if um one hand trump is saying all this border stuff that we know the the stats don't back it up and it's not true but if he's saying it and he's repeating it and it's it's out there and then polyev just goes hard on like fix a broken border fix a broken border like Like, Corey, do you think that public sentiment does change and people are like, man, we have a border we need to fix? 100

Corey 48:41

100% I do. Like, let's be clear. He is so popular that he might lend

Corey 48:45

lend his popularity to this particular issue. Yeah.

Corey 48:48

And I think about this in terms of the one I always think about when I think about, like, the tail wagging the dog like this is income trusts, which was a vehicle that was very popular for, you know, a lot of purposes. But it was kind of breaking things from a tax point of view. And it doesn't matter if you know what an income trust is. I don't think I need to get into it. All you really need to know is that the government of Canada then got rid of income trust, the liberal government of the day. And why I mentioned this is I just so happen to have been doing some polling in Calgary at the time. And,

Corey 49:21

And, um, the position of the conservatives at the time was, uh, you know, income trust bad. And the position of the liberals at the time was income trust good. And they like flipped overnight, right? When the liberals got rid of them. And then the conservatives were opposed to, to that particular point of view.

Corey 49:37

And maybe I shouldn't even say the conservatives were saying income, income trust bad, but they were, you know, they weren't exactly, you know, their biggest champions. And so this

Corey 49:46

this polling showed that Canadians were very opposed to income trusts.

Corey 49:52

And then the Liberals went and they got rid of income trusts. And all of a sudden, Canadians were very

Corey 49:58

very supportive of income trusts, right? right? Because like, at least in Calgary, because what happened was, everybody took their cues from the political leaders, and all of a sudden, an issue that they didn't think about at all, they just lent their, they took the opinion of somebody that they trust on these particular matters, which is their political leaders. So it happens all the time, right? It's not something that people have been thinking about. It's not a high salience issue, as we say, and because it's a low salience issue, you're

Corey 50:24

you're much more willing to lend to somebody else your support and take take their opinion and call it your own opinion. And I suspect a certain amount of that will happen here, but it's always a bit of a trade, right? Like it's never a perfect conversion. Like there's an efficiency to that conversion. And if you, the popular person takes an unpopular position, yeah, you might move that unpopular position, but that unpopular position is going to move you too. And the question just becomes where and how much. And while I'm certainly not saying that this is is going to drop Pierre Polyev even into a race, let alone out of contention.

Corey 50:58

You can't take too, too many of these positions and expect it not to dent your popularity over time. So I do think it's interesting that he basically took the bait, right? And yes, he will make Fix the Broken Borders more popular with Canadians widely, but he's going to make Pierre Polyev less popular doing this too. And if you spend the next eight months making this exact same trade,

Corey 51:20

it might actually end up being an interesting election again. And we're so many miles from that. So

Corey 51:26

So many miles from that. I really want to underline that. But if you keep doing dumb things, dumb things are going to happen to you. And

Zain 51:33

And in this case, I think, Corey, this articulates a very helpful sort of way of talking about when we talk about political capital being spent, this is a version of it too. This is not the most natural version of it. the more natural version of it is you find something you want to do. It's maybe unpopular, but you either want to do it because you feel like a small constituency or group or just frankly, just conviction that you have that it needs to be done and you spend that capital. But this is also a version of that same thing. When you spend capital on doing something and it reduces your own popularity, that is capital being spent. And in this case, it might be small nicks or small all cuts, but the thousand-cut strategy is conventional wisdom, because it's conventional wisdom. It has happened before, where it wasn't one thing that led to the downfall of Pierre Poliev in the final year of an election. They said, hypothetically, but it was many small, stupid things that led to it, so to speak. And at some point, maybe people are like, yeah, we're tired of the sloganeering, and this was the last slogan that was added to the pile. We just didn't buy into it, and this guy was pretty hollow, and he just exposes a bunch of of stuff. And you never know where that snowball kind of can lead to. With Justin Trudeau in the seat, I don't think it's going to lead to anything.

Zain 52:50

couldn't help himself. Danielle Smith couldn't help herself.

Corey 52:54

can't help himself. I'll observe that Trump won. Smith won.

Corey 52:59

I like Pierre Polyev's odds, even if he screws this one up.

Zain 53:01

It's good. This is what Corey calls clean up, when he bats clean up. So make sure his record is tight. So that anything he said in his previous response, no one can, yeah, yeah. Stay

Corey 53:09

Stay tuned. No, no, no, no, no. Look, I don't want to.

Corey 53:13

I don't want to overstate it. I don't. But I think it

Corey 53:17

it is interesting to me that Pierre Polyev played exactly the role that the liberals clearly wanted him to play.

Zain 53:23

Mark my words, Justin Trudeau will get Stephen Carter a pardon.

Annalise 53:28

Guys, let's move into our lightning round. Lightning round. I'm going to just tell you some stuff and then you tell me if it's a good idea or a bad idea.

Corey 53:40

all of them are bad bold

Corey 53:42

wow that's bold first

Annalise 53:43

first one uh some of the biggest news organizations in canada including cbc canadian press a globe post media tour star they're suing open ai they

Annalise 53:53

they allege the company is engaging in copyright infringement by unlawfully scraping news articles to build its models zane is this lawsuit a good idea or a bad idea good

Corey 54:06

think it's a good idea, if only because this is such a murky space. We actually need the courts to start weighing in on some of these things, and even make a boneheaded decision or two that will then force the parliaments to weigh in on some of these things. We are so far ahead of our laws, and we are so far ahead of just kind of the legal framework more generally. We need to have a couple of cases like this to shake some things out. I could make compelling

Corey 54:31

compelling non-legal arguments to myself one way or the other about whether I think that OpenAI is stealing content from these organizations. I could make compelling non-legal arguments that they are, but I ultimately would rather hear what the lawyers say and what the judges say. And again, when they screw it up because many of the judges couldn't possibly understand the technical nuances of these things, then

Corey 54:54

then I'd like to see what the politicians do. But we've got to start working through these problems. It takes some time. This is a huge technology, tons of money involved in it. And right now we're just we're floating, we're floating around, and it's fucking everything up. And it's changing the whole of society. And it's so accidental. And we need a certain intentionality to it. Yeah,

Zain 55:11

Yeah, I just would add that I think I like it simply because

Zain 55:15

I don't care about the legal outcome in some ways. I think the legal outcome is almost secondary with this particular lawsuit. I think the broader macro legal outcome is important in terms of data scraping and what writes, by the way, for-profit company OpenAI has,

Zain 55:30

once claiming not to be. But this is very much like, I take this from like the Lena Kahn school of like, the lawsuits are a PR win. They're trying to move the needle, have the conversation, force the conversation, bring light to the fact that this happened. I don't think many Canadians would know that this is what OpenAI has been alleged to do, if it weren't for the New York Times and now Canadian media outlets and others filing the lawsuit. suit it is its own way of uh pushing the conversation win or lose and in this case of course they want the proper legal outcome but i'd say it's almost secondary when we're entering these waters not not you know that are that are so new and embryonic in some ways yeah

Corey 56:10

yeah is embryonic waters a good band name cory i

Zain 56:12

think it is no it is i do i think so yeah i feel like it sounds too pregnancy oriented don't

Annalise 56:19

don't say that again okay

Annalise 56:20

guys no don't say it's

Annalise 56:22

it's good it's a good Australia just passed a

Annalise 56:25

social media ban for kids under 16. Platforms like Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Snapchat must show they are taking reasonable steps to keep kids under 16 off the platforms. Corey, you've got kids. Good idea, bad idea? I do.

Corey 56:43

Well, I think it's a good idea. I definitely would want to hear people weigh in on this with some background in these areas. is but as a parent i i just even the limited social media engagement my parents or my my kids do have and my parents frankly i worry about it uh about

Annalise 57:02

about it under a certain age and over a certain age well

Corey 57:04

well i think that it's in many ways much more damaging than some of the other things that we say kids can't do that right i also do believe that one of the challenges is you're creating a permanent record for them very early when they're not remotely in control of well

Corey 57:20

well of anything or who they're going to be as a person down the road and at the very least they they deserve a right to forget and maybe the best way to have that almost imposed on them is that we just don't allow this central social media records of everything they've done since the age of 12 i think that there's some logic to that frankly i wonder if 16 is is old enough i wonder if it shouldn't be uh age of majority. Because

Corey 57:45

even that, I can imagine a lot of very stupid things that you're going to regret being on there. But more to the point, I can imagine an awful lot of some

Corey 57:54

some pretty dark pressures on you as a youth. It's tough being a kid. And I'm sure that there will still be social

Corey 58:03

media that slips through the cracks, people creating fake accounts. Maybe they'll go back to Usenet groups i don't know you know life finds a way but i definitely don't think we should be encouraging kids to be on social media because it seems to be creating some uh

Corey 58:18

uh some rough situations and certainly when you look at the the data as a whole for society in terms of rates of depression you know uh anxiety amongst younger people i'm

Corey 58:30

i'm not saying it's all on social media i'm saying the correlation is pretty hard to ignore and one of the benefits now is australia gives us a case study and we'll see where this all goes zane

Annalise 58:38

zane good idea or a bad idea uh

Zain 58:41

uh trade wrecker trudeau that's what donald trump would call justin trudeau on social media if they were teenagers yeah

Zain 58:48

mean listen i think the bullying aspect uh is

Zain 58:51

is is part of it right like the bullying aspect is a huge part of it what i'm fascinated about is two things implementation that's going to be fun i think think it's january of 26 that they have

Zain 59:05

and then the youtube carve out i believe youtube is carved out yeah

Annalise 59:08

yeah youtube i was talking about this or something like the oh

Zain 59:11

oh maybe just youtube kids okay well there are

Annalise 59:13

are carve outs yeah the

Zain 59:15

the youtube one is fascinating to me because the algo on youtube i'd say is more powerful

Zain 59:20

powerful prominent radicalizing of young boys than anything else i have seen so i'm really curious to see what the youtube carve out ultimately means but overall i I think this is a bold move by the Australian Senate and I'm curious to see how they implement it. Do

Corey 59:36

Do you know what I think? I think that kids should just get their parents' algorithms so that my children get nothing but home renovation content. That's what

Annalise 59:43

what your algorithm is, Corey?

Zain 59:45

I have all those border crossing people where they're bringing drugs in and they're, have you seen this? This shit's amazing. You could watch,

Zain 59:53

have you guys ever watched an entire movie on TikTok?

Zain 59:57

movie? Oh, well, like in parts for sure. Yeah, you

Zain 59:59

you can watch. I watch the social network all the time. I feel like most of my algorithm is drug trade and the social network film. And I'm like, yeah, and every scene is great. Every scene in that film is great, is what I'll tell you, having watched

Corey 1:00:13

the most pretzeled way possible. out of order look i think that one of the things that australia is going to have to contend with is the line between social media and what's just a group chat is increasingly murky but

Corey 1:00:24

you know it's a good point yeah

Annalise 1:00:25

yeah no there are carboxyl case

Corey 1:00:26

case study for like see the g6 google

Annalise 1:00:29

classroom and stuff yeah that

Zain 1:00:30

group chat the g6 okay

Annalise 1:00:32

okay guys good idea or bad idea in a surprise sunday evening move president joe biden pardoned his son hunter uh lightning round we're not gonna get deep

Annalise 1:00:42

deep into it Corey, I know you've got some

Annalise 1:00:46

thoughts. You sent a, what are things on blue sky calls? They're not tweets. A what? They're

Corey 1:00:52

They're called skeets, which is a pretty terrible name. Yeah.

Annalise 1:00:58

Okay, Corey skeeted. Not

Corey 1:01:00

Not making this up.

Annalise 1:01:00

up. Corey skeeted about this, but what's your take, Corey? Good idea or bad idea?

Corey 1:01:07

Well, I think it's a bad idea, but I think it's because the system's a bad system. I don't think politicians should be allowed to pardon people. There's been a lot of pardon scandals in my lifetime. I remember Bill Clinton pardoning people who had donated to his presidential library. Obviously, we remember Donald Trump pardoning all sorts of shady characters, one of which he's now named ambassador to France, because that's the fucking world we live in here. and I don't think this is a good addition, right? I don't think that Joe Biden is wrong that Hunter Biden's prosecution got very political. There were a lot of political voices leaning on it. They squashed a plea deal at the last minute, a judge did. That felt very political. That doesn't really happen like that very frequently in court and so it's tough to think that he got a fair shake but

Corey 1:01:57

but Joe Biden also said that he wouldn't do this and then he did this And it is also him pardoning his son. And that doesn't feel right.

Corey 1:02:07

I would probably pardon my own son, which is what I said at the start of this episode. And I mean it because why the hell wouldn't you? You're a father and you care, right? Doesn't make it right. I don't think that we should hand that loaded gun to

Corey 1:02:20

politicians. It's just not a good idea. In Canada, we have, we were talking a bit about this at the top. The power of pardoning doesn't exist with politicians. power to grant clemency can be done by cabinet right but it's it's not quite the same like there are different controls and this is just we're

Corey 1:02:38

we're clearly in a world now where you're just going to pardon somebody if they're your friend and you're not if they're not and that's not what the justice system's supposed to be and it doesn't make it just simply because in the 1780s somebody wrote it into the united states constitution it's a problem and i i just don't think that this should It should be a power that we give to politicians. And I frankly don't think very highly of Joe Biden for doing it. Or, you know, or do I think that it's appropriate?

Annalise 1:03:06

Zane, what are your thoughts in his kind of emotional, his pretty emotional statement? He said, I hope Americans will understand why a father and a president would come to this decision. Do you think the pardon is a good idea or a bad idea?

Zain 1:03:19

Good idea for Hunter Biden.

Zain 1:03:22

I mean, it's not just a pardon. It's a pardon for everything he could be convicted of, too, because there's stuff still in process. And I don't know what that stuff is. But what I'm looking forward to is the second Hamilton, because, of course, that's who we need to blame for this. Alexander Hamilton was to blame. And I want Lin-Manuel to come out with another musical. Hamilton

Corey 1:03:43

Hamilton 2, The Reckoning.

Zain 1:03:45

You just lost me. It should be called Hamilton 2. Pardon me.

Annalise 1:03:50

OK, I've got one last one for you. Alberta is ending photo radar on provincial highways and speed on green. This was announced today by Alberta's Minister of Transportation, and he was wearing a barbecue apron that said, no cash cow.

Annalise 1:04:07

Was the no cash cow apron a good idea or a bad idea, Zane Velgey? The apron?

Zain 1:04:12

apron? Who cares about the policy? Just the apron. That's

Annalise 1:04:14

That's all I care

Annalise 1:04:14

care about. Okay, well,

Zain 1:04:15

well, I'm out of the policy. I am totally in on the apron.

Annalise 1:04:18

You're in on the apron. And, Corey,

Zain 1:04:18

Corey, I want it on our merch store.

Annalise 1:04:22

aprons we need i

Zain 1:04:23

i want i want the attrition that was

Annalise 1:04:24

was like christmas remember the gal who asked about more merch for christmas aprons would sell it was the apron a good idea or a bad idea cory

Corey 1:04:33

uh it was it was a bad idea but it was this the kind of generic bad that you see in government communications all of the time man i've been there i'm not throwing stones and saying i'm better than you whoever came up with this idea i've fucking been there the number of tortured what's our hook How are we going to make this visually interesting idea, as I've seen in my day, is just way too many. And I can feel what that meeting was like, where they're sitting there and they're like, what are we going to do? What's the visual for getting rid of photo radar? Do we want to be outside with photo radar? No, we're looking for something with a little bit more sizzle, like a steak. Hey, no cash cows. Like, it's just so easy to see how this all unfolds. It's like season

Zain 1:05:14

season 20 of Mad TV Writers, just the bottom of the barrel.

Corey 1:05:18

barrel. Yeah, man. Everyone

Zain 1:05:18

Everyone had gone to SCTV and SNL. He just stuck with those people. Everybody's

Corey 1:05:22

Everybody's too busy, you know, everybody's too busy working on the three-sentence statement from the premier. And nobody's fucking thinking about this particular event. And it just, like, you can imagine, you can just imagine sitting there and having this dawning realization as the minister of how fucking stupid this is. Because nobody's going to get that it's in a restaurant. on nobody's gonna get the connection nobody's gonna understand this you're calling me

Annalise 1:05:49

me out cory i

Corey 1:05:49

i did not get blocking your apron yeah

Corey 1:05:52

yeah the mic is blocking your like absolutely all of this background that nobody is gonna have it's

Corey 1:05:58

it's just gonna seem weird right like why are you wearing a fucking apron that says no cash nobody's gonna understand it but this happens all the time this happens not just in government this happens in communications right it's it's like you're trying You're trying to make it interesting. You don't want to make it your 800th press conference. You're trying to add some visual interest. This is what we call an activation.

Annalise 1:06:20

We're going to end it there. That is a wrap on episode 1838. I'm your host, Annalise Klingmule. And with you, as always, Zane Velgey and Corey Hogan.

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