Transcript
Zain
0:00
This is a Strategist episode 1294. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Carter, I'm going pretty fast because you've put us on a hard stop, haven't you? Listen,
Carter
0:08
Listen, I'm in Ottawa. Here's the thing. I'm way out here in Ottawa. As you know, I'm on a pilgrimage to meet all of our subscribers. And there's one guy out here named Doug Wong, and he's a subscriber. So I came out to see him. Our good friend Hannah Wilson from Kent Hares, old office, told me to come out and see him. And he didn't show up for drinks. okay i
Corey
0:28
i have no idea if this is real or not but this
Carter
0:31
this is a real story this this actually happened to me tonight doug wong subscriber didn't
Carter
0:36
didn't bother to show up for drinks that's
Zain
0:39
doxam doxam doxam yeah i'm gonna doug wong subscriber go ahead what else do you know about doug wong works
Carter
0:44
works at the department of finance in ottawa this
Corey
0:47
is a big am
Corey
0:49
to redact these listen i think people
Carter
0:51
people have said he's a big swinging dick but i just think he's a big dick that's what i think
Zain
0:56
What are Doug's finances? Pins, social security numbers, do we have anything? Keep
Zain
1:01
going, keep going. His pin is
Carter
1:05
He's not very original. And his social insurance, I don't have. But if you get a hold of his bank card, you're going to get some cash.
Zain
1:13
Get the Discord on it, Corey. Get the Discord on it.
Zain
1:16
Doug Wong, that's who we're after. Doug, you canceled. You ghosted on the wrong person. You're used to getting ghosted. yeah
Carter
1:24
listen i only got ghosted by one person today it was like a victory it was a mad day today it was fantastic is
Zain
1:30
is that is that an ottawa culture thing people ghost you you
Carter
1:33
you know what no i had i'll tell you something i don't know if you know this but the strategist is huge out here in ottawa huge i don't think it is i would say things like i'm on a podcast and they'd say which one i'd say the strategist and they go isn't that zane velge's podcast and i'd be like yeah that's
Corey
1:51
an No way Zane's name came up before mine. I'm just going to say
Carter
1:55
say it. I actually was talking to someone. I don't like the name drop or anything. I was talking to someone in the PMO who's like, how's Zane? How's Zane? I'm like, fuck off with Zane.
Carter
2:04
be asking him out for you. Zane
Zain
2:05
Zane is good, and he's ready to accept public
Zain
2:07
public appointments that come with a hefty per diem. Listen,
Carter
2:12
Listen, you're already the vice
Carter
2:13
of the vice regal. What
Zain
2:14
What more do you want? You want me to put me on the CRA? I'm good with that.
Corey
2:20
You can work with Doug. Yeah, you can work with Doug
Zain
2:21
Doug in finance. You can work with Doug Wong.
Zain
2:24
Doug Wong. And actually, if I was part of Sierra, I'd make everyone's PIDs 4-3-2-1. Okay.
Carter
2:30
my one thing I would do. That would be fantastic.
Corey
2:33
You know what? No one would ever
Zain
2:34
ever lose their money. Doug and I could
Zain
2:36
a team. I'm glad they're asking how I am. I am doing well. But Carter, the reason I bring this up is you've got a hard out, don't you? I've
Carter
2:44
I've got to be honest with you guys. It's already 10.43 here, because as you know, Zane, you're unable to join us at 8.30, which is our recording time. I have tech issues.
Carter
2:56
it's just like every time. It's
Carter
2:58
It's fantastic. I should take
Zain
2:59
take a picture of my desk right now. It is a mic hooked up to a computer, which is sitting on another computer, which is on top of an iPad. And that's not a brag of all the devices I own. I just don't know how to work any of these devices. It's just the worst.
Zain
3:11
Corey, should we start in Carter's current home turf with our first segment? our first segment why the fuck do we still do this guys oh good we're gonna we're gonna talk about we're gonna disabuse the listener of another uh political thing that happens a political tact strategy and this time i want to talk about floor crossings cory anthony housefather keeping his options open this is a liberal mp uh has been a staunch supporter and ally of of of Israel has been one of the loudest voices as this liberal government has been more and more measured. And I would say these are charged, perhaps even editorial words on my part. There they are, as they relate to the war in Gaza. And now, Corey, he's considering his options. This is on the heels of that motion, that non-binding NDP motion we talked about last episode. We called it the status quo motion. Well, for Anthony Housefather, it is perhaps the last straw in in that sense. Corey, are
Zain
4:11
are we talking about floor crossings correctly? Like, you know, we talk about the intrigue, the excitement when someone says, I'm going to cross the floor. In such polarized times, should we be looking at it through the same lens we were of perhaps yesteryear, where you were crossing from parties that may have had slight differences in policy or minor adjustments in how we looked at it, but maybe have, you know, seen the world in a similar way? Am I wrong? Was Was the past wrong? Why the fuck do we still care about this?
Corey
4:41
Well, it's an interesting question, because of course, certainly whenever somebody talks about crossing the floor in this day and age, I do immediately think about like, all of the things they've probably said in the last 24 hours about what piles of garbage their opponents are. I do like to think that that's largely rhetoric, and they see their opponents as more human and nuanced than that. But it certainly feeds and fosters this general cynicism in politics. Now, Anthony Housefather did not see it as status quo. And to be fair, we gave a lot of head. Well, it sounds like it's status quo, but what else might be in there? There is some language in there that suggests there can be no arms sales to Israel. Now, I don't know what the material effects are, you know, of Canada selling arms or providing arms to Israel, but that seems to be the thing that has Housefather particularly incensed. You know, if your view, well, and listen, it's my view, Israel was attacked on October 7th. Certainly events have spiraled since there in many different directions, massive loss of life. But, you know, if that's the fundamental core, I can understand that that might be something that really affects you, and you might feel that that's a fundamental issue of fairness. And, um, well, I don't share Anthony Housefather's view at this particular matter. Um, yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's not entirely fair to suggest that he's leaving because of the status quo. I guess that's what I'm trying to say here. um
Corey
6:09
um if he leaves if
Corey
6:12
if he but to your question zane why
Corey
6:15
why do we still do this great
Corey
6:17
great question lots of options you could be an independent you could resign your seat entirely and it does seem that the one that will foster the most cynicism is crossing to the side that you couldn't be bothered to be in the same room as you know metaphorically right like just big gaps in language minutes
Corey
6:37
minutes before you made the decision carter
Zain
6:41
carter are we you know we floor crossings i'm not saying i'm not romanticizing of how they were done in the past but i guess the root of my question is in these polarized times floor crossings question mark like do we need a new vernacular do we need a new way of talking about them do we need a an added cynicism in terms of how we look at them these days i
Carter
7:02
i mean floor crossings have existed as long as we've had political parties this isn't something that's new and it's not something that's going away what and nor is the idea of a rationalization of why you're crossing let's be very clear about why most floor crossings happen most floor crossings happen because people are trying to maximize their politics this is not something that's done uh willy-nilly it's done primarily so that they can hold on to power um and then they justify it afterwards you know oh i i did it because of a a motion a non-binding ndp motion that passed that is going to have absolutely zero effect on the government of canada you know cory brings up a couple of sections that are are controversial
Carter
7:46
controversial absolutely they're controversial but they're not going to change the foreign policy of the country of canada it's just not going to happen right and at the same time we've got the united states calling for a ceasefire which is a massive uh step forward i mean this is a um this
Carter
8:04
this is a guy who's looking to cross the floor to the conservatives and the idea that he's not going to cross the floor to the conservative he wants to cross because he wants to be able to get re-elected and that's great why don't you just say that why don't you just say that instead of coming up with bullshit reasons and rationale from a non-binding resolution of the ndps yeah
Zain
8:24
yeah yeah i mean i i don't reasoning and rationale despite the fact that probably for me i don't like cory don't share his views and i don't want to assume for you carter but i i suspect you might be aligned with us on that but but cory like you
Zain
8:38
know any response here then i've got another stream of questioning that i want to talk about in this in this yeah
Corey
8:43
yeah look it's kind of an open secret that anthony house father hasn't been particularly enamored with his lot in the liberal party for for some time but yeah
Corey
8:51
yeah i i don't want that to color the like listen this is this is life and death stuff This is not a game for many people who have deep connections to the region on all sides, right? You know, it doesn't even necessarily need to be somebody who's in Gaza or Israel or, you know, it could be or even a next door neighbor of Israel. This is like deep, serious, charged stuff. So I don't want to entirely dismiss what might be sincere, deeply held emotions. And if you have sincere, deeply held emotions on these things, I am sure I am sure it drives you up the ever loving wall that it seems like it's a bit of a game and that, oh, man, now we've got him. Like, we've just changed a few words and we've totally acquiesced to this thing that you think is morally wrong. And yeah, now we fuck the conservatives. And yeah, I'm sure that gets his ire up massively because of his worldview. I am. Yeah.
Carter
9:45
you think this is sincere?
Carter
9:47
You think that this is sincere instead of some sort of bogus ass mechanism of trying to gain and concern and hold on to power? I absolutely do not agree. I think this is
Zain
9:57
this is Carter's Carter statement is actually at the heart of my questioning here, which is, do we need a new language, a new process, frankly, a new cynicism automatically applied to floor crossings right away. And the reason I ask that is because he's made the rounds. He hasn't been accountability interviewed, really, right? You know, the furthest he's gotten, like, how much in contact are you with them? And he admits he's not in direct contact, but conservative friends. He's become the man of the hour. He's had his 15 minutes on this particular issue. And my question is really at the heart of, do we need to have an automatic cynicism to floor crossings? Corey?
Zain
10:32
I don't think so.
Corey
10:34
It's not hard for me to, like on all floor crossings, there
Corey
10:38
there are moral floor crossings in the world. Do
Zain
10:40
Do we need to start from a position of cynicism?
Corey
10:43
should probably start from a position of cynicism for most things in politics, Zane. I mean, that's almost the thesis of our fucking podcast, right? Yeah,
Zain
10:52
Yeah, exactly. Then the follow-up question is, why don't we? On this particular matter, why haven't we adapted with the times in that sense? It's kind of the heart of my question. Carter's now exposing his bed to us, and he's in a near lie-flat position, which is a seat type that is not offered by our sponsor. They have upright like a broom, and that is it. And, Coach, Corey, back to you. Look,
Corey
11:16
Look, I guess if you sense a discomfort, it's because I think this is a very serious issue for many people. This
Corey
11:24
Israel and Gaza. Yeah, and so I don't want to trivialize it to the idea of, well, it's clearly a cynical play. I just don't. I just don't feel comfortable doing that at all. But if you want to talk about different floor crossings that have occurred in other jurisdictions and at other levels in the last bit, yeah, I absolutely look at them. And I think, okay, right, you know, often it happens to be in somebody who's a swing riding. I think if you want to talk about a moral floor crossing, you're probably looking for sort of, let's just say, there's certain signals that maybe this floor crossing is about more than getting elected. Like, if they were in, say, an NDP safe seat, and they've decided to go to the conservatives, that's probably not a politically smart move for them. You know, that would be a more cynical floor crossing. Or sorry, a less cynical floor crossing. Less cynical. Yeah, right. And so I do think you've got to sort of look at, would this actually be politically advantageous as sort of a first gate on whether you're assessing if a floor crossing is sincere or not?
Zain
12:22
Carter, your facial expressions, there's many of them in this lie-flat position. I just don't know if that's just the natural forces of gravity pulling on your face here. That's all
Zain
12:32
What do you have to add? You seem frustrated. Well, Corey— You look frustrated.
Carter
12:37
it's an important issue. Absolutely. Absolutely, it's an important issue. But it wasn't like the complaining started on Monday, right? The complaining started many—you know, has been around for quite a while. This is a guy who was a parliamentary secretary, then became not a parliamentary secretary, then became a parliamentary secretary again, and all of a sudden becomes another critic of his own government. This is not someone who's just
Carter
13:04
upset because of the Israel-Gaza situation. This is someone who's playing a game and trying to put his government into a negative situation. if you want to see a real floor crossing that that is not about partisanship watch someone who crosses to independent you know if this guy would cross to independent then maybe i would say you know what why
Carter
13:27
why do you say that's
Zain
13:28
that's not in the cards for him sorry i just like he
Carter
13:31
he said it he's going to cross to the fucking conservatives he
Carter
13:34
he said it well
Carter
13:37
that's what he's going to do
Carter
13:40
Mark it down. Prediction made. Can I get nerdy
Zain
13:44
nerdy for a second? Oh
Carter
13:46
Oh yeah, this is the first time.
Zain
13:48
Can I talk about what the modern rules for communication with the other party should look like or with your potential suitors should look like for a floor crossing? Any new rules in our text message obsessed, WhatsApp obsessed, multiple conversations conversations on the go, obsessed, loose lips, obsessed world on floor crossings? Is there, like, how would you think about this? Like, when he says, I'm having a lot of conversations, people are reaching out to me, how do you deal with that inbound? How do you deal with that outbound if you're considering this? I'm kind of curious, like, do you have every conversation? And then you have an excuse saying, I said yes to everything. How do you think about it, Carter? Like, and you're smiling, so I think you may have a framework here to
Corey
14:32
to talk about this We might have
Zain
14:33
have both been involved in floor crossings. I know you both have. That's why I'm going to ask you the rules for today. I suspect they may have stayed similar, but give it to me, guys. All
Carter
14:43
All you ever want to do is have a cup of coffee.
Carter
14:46
That's all you ever want to do in writing.
Carter
14:48
Writing is just, hey, why don't we get together for a cup of coffee, right?
Carter
14:51
right? Everything you do has to be verbal, because the very last thing you want is an approach to be made public. Like, you don't put it in your WhatsApp, you use your Snapchat, right? right? Because
Carter
15:03
Because the message disappears. But even then, you don't want to write it down. So don't write it down. You say, let's go for a coffee. You have a conversation. And sometimes you're rebuffed. But sometimes you're not. Most times you're rebuffed.
Zain
15:19
Corey, how are you thinking about the written comms rules of floor crossing? In the history
Corey
15:24
history of this, you have not used written communications. It's just not a very smart idea, you because
Corey
15:29
because you just don't know where you are until you're at the finish line on this and can i tell you a
Corey
15:35
a lot a shocking number of these conversations occur that do not conclude in a floor crossing carter you
Corey
15:41
you will back that up oh
Carter
15:43
oh my god like for every one cross you probably have
Corey
15:46
have 10 agreed conversation 100 agreed and
Carter
15:48
and and you wouldn't believe the number of the conversations that start on the in the house in the legislature where people are just kind of like ah it's the the end of the day you know they've just been heckling one another and they walk across and they you know oh man you guys really got me i wish i wouldn't be heckled by your team well what do you mean you don't want to be heckled by our team you want to join our team ha ha ha really oh
Carter
16:11
oh really that's fantastic for those
Zain
16:14
those uh for those basketball heads this is the draymond green texting kevin durant after the loss in the 2019 finals yes that's the reference that many were looking for i think it's perfect you know and their hands brush against each other as they reach for the speakers mace and yeah
Corey
16:28
yeah i mean there's it's just it's like uh it's kismet right it just happens and uh
Corey
16:34
uh yeah so always always verbal i and i agree it's not even like phone calls if it can be avoided it's like conversations let's meet and when those conversations escalate to the most senior people like the party leaders it's let's meet secretly like come in through the loading dock and we'll take you up through a random elevator oh
Carter
16:53
oh my god yeah
Carter
16:55
i remember those ones I had one where the guy went to the parking garage and came up a secured elevator. So,
Zain
17:03
So, this is a fun story. But talk to me about...
Corey
17:09
We're just two old guys going down memory lane now. You're
Zain
17:11
You're reminiscing. One time
Carter
17:12
private room in an Italian
Zain
17:16
All that comes from it. Lots
Carter
17:18
Lots of Starbucks meetings. Yeah. Yeah.
Zain
17:21
And all you have to show for it is two regional campaigns.
Zain
17:29
what's the cost of being found out by your own party you're done because you're talking to yeah like they might not kick
Corey
17:35
kick so you're they might not kick you out dozens but you're yeah you're done well
Carter
17:38
well actually i had one where we approached and she wound up uh getting a uh parliamentary secretary really
Carter
17:50
because she went straight away to to the Premier's office. Oh,
Corey
17:54
That's a bit different,
Zain
17:54
though. So wait, you tried to poach. You approached. I approached. And then someone was like, Carter's fucking with us sort of thing. I'm being loyal, sort of. We'd heard
Carter
18:02
heard that she was very dissatisfied. We
Carter
18:05
We went to her. She was dissatisfied. But
Carter
18:08
But then she became very satisfied when she got her new job.
Corey
18:11
That'll happen. Yeah. Corey
Zain
18:14
Corey can beep it out. You
Zain
18:15
can say who it was.
Corey
18:15
No, I don't want to have to remember to beep it out. Okay, then don't beep it out.
Corey
18:22
depends on if you're the instigator i said he can't i didn't say he will so you know what i think is interesting about the house father situation is the suggestion that he's not talking to anybody in the party which makes me wonder if the conservatives are actually interested in him joining them and i can i can think of a few reasons they wouldn't be first and foremost is he's he's kind of got a bit of reputation as a malcontent right yep
Corey
18:46
and uh if If you don't
Corey
18:48
don't know much about them, but you know that, that should often give you pause in any organization.
Zain
18:56
Talk to me, Carter, about where – let's put it back on this case of him. Like Corey had some sort of suggestions for the conservatives. What suggestion would you have if you're the liberals right now? Because this is like a potential floor crossing in public, which is why I asked you guys, what are the rules if you're found out? So, well, in some ways, he's denying direct conversations, but he's acknowledging inbound requests. Does this cross the line in that sense? Like, how are the liberals viewing this guy right now?
Corey
19:25
But he was already, he already wasn't, like, again, he wasn't loving his lot in life.
Carter
19:30
I just think that the prime minister's office is focused on the budget, and the second they're done focused on the budget, this guy is going to be- That
Zain
19:36
That makes sense. Doug didn't show up.
Zain
19:38
Doug was on the budget. Fucking
Carter
19:39
Fucking Doug. So angry about Doug.
Zain
19:42
Yeah. Control F on the budget when it comes out, 4-3-2-1 if you see it, that was Doug. Anywhere in the document, those four numbers are chained
Zain
19:49
together. That's Doug. Final question, Carter, on this for you. What
Zain
19:54
What advice would you give the conservatives? Corey gave some. What advice would you give the conservatives right now as it relates to not even accepting him or not, but how they should deal with the dance? dance like i think the dance is almost as intriguing as the outcome and maybe the outcome is when it like the intrigue
Corey
20:13
intrigue dies so i gotta say i actually think you're almost creating a phony scenario because i can't believe he wasn't like oh i'm talking to like it okay can we just back up a little bit here clearly a bit of a cry for attention here uh to say well i'm talking by him well i'm talking to the conservatives that's how serious this is i don't know if i have a home in this party right but
Corey
20:33
but then to follow it up with well i'm not i mean i'm talking to people who who are talking to the, I mean, that's, that's
Corey
20:38
that's a little weak, right? That's a little weird. Oh,
Carter
20:40
Oh, that's very weak.
Carter
20:43
No, this guy, this guy is so close to being absolutely homeless. Because if I were the conservatives, I'd be like, interesting,
Carter
20:50
interesting, but we're not taking any fucking liberals, right?
Carter
20:53
right? We've seen how floor crossings go. And we just don't need one more person. When we're heading into a majority government, we're going to have 220.
Carter
21:01
So thank you very much. I think you've just spoken to the weakness of the liberals, but you've not you've clearly misunderstood our strength and i just i'd be like see
Carter
21:10
see ya we don't need you cory
Zain
21:14
cory with that being said i
Zain
21:16
said that was the last question when have i ever stayed well you were a liar yeah
Carter
21:20
yeah you're the worst this hey what do you
Zain
21:23
you what advice are you giving house father right now you are you are advising him for his own good he's now on a media flirting tour he's on a political party flirting tour his party probably his current party doesn't love him more than likely, because this is obviously taking the leader off message. What are you telling him?
Corey
21:40
Well, okay, let's, there's something we haven't mentioned, although I kind of hinted at it earlier, which is part of where I was saying, he represents fucking Mount Royal, like it's a liberal lock, you know, it's not, it's not like he's going to be elected there as a conservative, if he crosses the floor to the conservative party. So I do think that this is a bit of a, This is a bit of a, hey, listen, you got to take me seriously and I'm upset kind of conversation here. But if you are talking to him and you're saying, hey, here's how you manage things going forward, at the end of the day, he needs to be a liberal to be reelected in that riding. So if his interest is politics, he needs to be a liberal. If his interest is a bigger cause, if his interest is, I don't care, fuck all of that. I think this is morally wrong and I'm upset. Well, then he will go to the conservatives or do something different. But if I was the conservatives, I just wouldn't trust them to be much of a team player at this point.
Zain
22:38
he's so close to being homeless. What advice do you have for him?
Carter
22:42
uh grovel and apologize and say that you're a team player and you're never going to do this again because this is a guy who's going to be homeless and out of a job in 18 months
Corey
22:54
politically homeless just no he's
Carter
22:57
he's gonna i'm sorry yeah that's incorrect he's going to be completely homeless uh and uh just out of a job in 18 months okay
Zain
23:05
okay there's a gaza reference there i will not make let's move it on
Zain
23:08
on to our next segment our next segment respect the recall carter carter
Zain
23:15
carter the recall for jyoti gandak here in calgary is
Zain
23:20
gaining steam but it's also gaining some more red yarn on the corkboard as connections are being made to take back alberta an institution called project yyc the guy who started it is is denying knowing anything about this project yyc despite including
Zain
23:37
including folks from that orbit and some cash over to them. The plot thickens, Carter. Yeah.
Zain
23:43
We'll get into the plot in a second. There's also seemingly, and I know this is a one-off story, when I say respect the recall, one of the defaced, you know, Gondek, recall Gondek signs was recently churned into respect Gondek, which
Corey
23:59
which I like. This is
Corey
23:59
very nice. Strange graffiti energy.
Zain
24:03
strange it was it was middle-aged white woman graffiti energy and i could use a bit more of that you gotta admire
Carter
24:09
admire them you gotta admire the middle-aged white women for just standing out there in the middle of the day getting filmed doing
Carter
24:16
doing the defacing of the sign like there were not going to be any consequences for us we're white women right
Carter
24:24
you're still defacing a sign i mean there should be an argument as to whether or not those signs are even allowed but that's okay that's okay that's a that's a bylaw no you
Corey
24:33
you don't understand i'm defacing it in a way that i like right
Carter
24:37
right exactly exactly it's still defacing someone
Carter
24:40
someone else's property you anyways moving
Zain
24:45
white white women got it good um which is which is a subtext of this podcast some might argue carter hold on hold on hold on talk to me about this and
Zain
24:54
and i'm going to get into the details in a second but answer me this question question first.
Zain
24:58
Is there, with the current sort of plot thickening, with the assertiveness of this group, with the aggressiveness, how loud they are, is there a sympathy
Zain
25:10
sympathy slash jujitsu strategy available to Jyoti Gondek right now? I think that to me is the most interesting element of this, which is they're in the plus 15s, they're out, they're loud, they've got signs, some of them are illegal they've got this connection to money and tech it as it thickens is
Zain
25:28
is there a pathway for gundek to be like look
Zain
25:31
look at this fucking shit in
Zain
25:32
in a reasonable way what do you think sure
Carter
25:34
sure there is but it doesn't involve being angry and you know she she just did a rick bell interview where she said how angry she is about the recall i mean i i would be completely dismissive of the recall you know i've got a job to do and i'm going to continue to do it um this isn't impacting me it isn't impacting my office it isn't impacting my relationship with council because everybody knows what a joke this is and how ineffective recall is to begin with and uh it won't matter in the long run so i'm not fussed by it i'm disappointed with the people who are uh defacing signs i'm disappointed with the people who are putting up signs but it doesn't change the fact that i have a job to do if you did that then you may have jujitsu if you do some some sort of, you know, if you're just getting out there and saying how angry you are, I don't like your chances of making any changes.
Zain
26:26
Corey, we'll get into the details of what some of the numbers look like, what their organization looks like for the recall campaign. But let's talk about Jyoti Gondek. She sits here as this happened, as the plot thickens, as some cast of characters, which are unsavory to many, including Take Back Alberta, get involved in this story. What is available to her as it relates to counteracting this recall? conversation. Well,
Corey
26:50
Well, I do think Carter's onto something with a bit of almost like a Margaret Thatcher energy. This lady's not for turning, you know, like that's fine. They can try to scare me from doing the right thing that council needs to do, but I'm going to keep doing it. And that seems to be a more obvious avenue. When we talked about this last time, I think we talked about contrition potentially being an avenue available to saying like, you know, I think, you know, it disappoints me that I've let down people and that they're going to do this. And you have to make tough decisions in this job. And I want people at the end of four years to measure me based on the sum of those decisions, not based on, you know, whatever take back Alberta decides to put on the window today. And yeah, am I happy that there are people that are this animated in a negative way about my mayoralty? No, I'm not. And I always strive to be better day after day, one foot after to the other. That's always been true. I strive for constant improvement. And I will always be reflecting on what I hear from people around me. But I got a job to do. And I'm not going to be scared off doing that job, simply because, you know, some people don't want me to be doing this one.
Zain
28:01
Carter, the tone is getting, it's getting harsher, it's getting more personal.
Zain
28:07
I know it it was just one example, but we're also, you know, folks who work in the art of brand and taking what's presented to you and trying to turn it into a positive or blow it up in certain cases. Would you lean into this respect element at all? Would you try to engineer or manufacture any of that as a counter narrative to what you're seeing? Would you add any,
Zain
28:31
would you fan those flames? I guess is the core of my question. Oh,
Carter
28:33
Oh, absolutely not. I mean, the only way you could do respect is you at least have to have respect for the office. But let's be honest, respect is earned, not assumed. And if there's some people who respect you, that's great. And if there's a lot of people who don't respect you and don't act with respect, then it is not for you to defend yourself. It is for others. And I'm not talking about the white women painting the signs. I'm talking about people standing up and saying, no, I'm with Joe Tegandek. And I'm not seeing a lot of people do that because there hasn't been the respect earned. So I wouldn't go into the respect element. I would just get back into the way to earn back the respect, Zane, is to do the job. And to do the job, we've talked about how you have to reflect leadership or you have to reflect the will of the people sometimes. times and sometimes you have to lead. My thinking with Jyoti Gondek at this time is that her mayor's office needs to reflect the will of the people. And that's what she needs to be doing more than being angry or frustrated by the lack of respect being shown by, I suspect, a relatively small percentage of the Calgary population.
Zain
29:42
Corey, would you lean into the respect mantra at
Corey
29:44
I generally don't like it when any politician leans into the respect mantra. I
Zain
29:48
I have real challenges
Corey
29:49
challenges with that. For
Zain
29:50
For themselves, or just overall? Like, I get it for like, hey, respect me sounds weird, but respect the broader mantra? What do you think of that? I don't like it. I mean,
Corey
30:01
I'm a bit of a tear it down kind of guy. You know, I'm a funny mix of institutionalist, and I also have no regard for these institutions. Lieutenant Governor, sorry, I had a bit of a cough. I wanted to clear it before I said that,
Corey
30:17
an example. 2025, we just, we just fucking take it down, man.
Zain
30:20
man. That's the year.
Corey
30:23
or a certain date, I'll let you know. No kings, no masters, right? But the,
Corey
30:29
notion that we are supposed to respect certain things, I think that's, that's the kind of language that's been used to prop up a lot of shitty things over the years. Exactly. And respect, to Carter's point, broader, respect is earned. And while I think that people should treat people, you know, nicely and fairly, I don't think respect is something that anybody just
Corey
30:51
just gets. I don't, you know, I think respect is earned.
Zain
30:55
Carter we don't have access to their database we don't get to see their membership we get to see a bit of the heat a bit of the light we don't get to see under the hood that being said as a practitioner who has a good understanding of what might be happening under the hood how well is this recall campaign doing Carter we knew it was never going to reach the high watermark of to be successful but we've always called it a data mining and organizing and volunteer upliftment and engagement exercise from what you can see through your lens how's it doing it's
Carter
31:25
it's doing fantastic and
Carter
31:27
and i'm not talking about the number of signatures the number of signatures at this stage is almost irrelevant um they've managed to take the mayor off of her game they've taught you know they've managed to get administration to try and hire an additional 10 staff so that for for four months so that they'll be able to verify a a petition i mean what confuses me is they have 45 days to uh to verify the petition but they're there for
Carter
31:51
four but they're hiring for four months i'm i'm absolutely shocked like who's in charge of math over there that's my big question um
Zain
31:59
um i know i know who it is who is it it's it's doug wong and doug wong that
Carter
32:08
came all the way out here to meet him nothing
Zain
32:12
doug wong man what happens it's probably here anyways yes who's in charge of matt they're hiring for four months for a 45 day gig i get it i
Carter
32:19
i don't understand it though you like cory do you understand can you explain it to me using your small word i i
Corey
32:24
i have to assume there's some sort of clause in a collective agreement or some sort of operating procedure that either reduces the cost for the city in the long run doing it this way or there's i don't know i really can't steven i can't i
Carter
32:38
i like to i like to think that they're they're going to be counting something else afterwards.
Corey
32:44
That'd be pretty great. Well, they've got some counters around. They're going to see how many stools are in the cafeteria. They
Carter
32:49
They could count the number of pylons that they've just left around the city with no particular reason.
Corey
32:54
You're really easing into old age. I just want you to know that. I
Carter
32:58
I just want to tell you that the pylons piss me off. Okay. Just pick the
Zain
33:02
up. I feel like Carter's going to roll into bed. I am
Carter
33:08
Why are we starting this podcast?
Zain
33:11
Corey, how are they doing? How is this recall campaign doing? Well,
Corey
33:15
I mean, it's been quite a trip to see some of the various threads get pulled into it. There was an interview on CBC with the, you know, the organizer or the person who started it, who seems like a fellow who's like, yeah, I just started to do it. I don't know, I don't really have a problem with, you know, left-wing politics generally. Yeah, some people are helping and it was really interesting to hear and makes you think a couple of people piled on to a recall campaign done by somebody who only kind of half
Corey
33:40
half-assed into it, right? right? But there's no doubt that it has galvanized an awful lot of opponents of the mayor. It has certainly taken people off message. I mentioned that CBC interview over the lunch hour. CBC radio at noon also did like an hour on recall, which I know because I was on half of it. And it's just, it's the conversation in the city right now. Like this has really kind of seized the, you know, the discourse. And that's not great. Like when you're the mayor and everyone's talking for days and days on end about how people are coming to get you and how there's this recall effort against you the best you can say is it's an absolute distraction the worst is it's actually damaging your brand fairly badly and and all of a sudden you are so unpopular that tens of thousands of people are rising up even in this improbable recall environment to try to get rid of you so if
Zain
34:34
if you're opposed to the bear it's going great carter
Zain
34:37
right right for me their game plan after this. Let's say tens of thousands, because I'm not going to venture to say hundreds of thousands of people have signed, but tens of thousands. Volunteers from across the city, right? People have been activated through this. I literally saw people with t-shirts, you know, in West Hillhurst, like at a community association trying to, like across the street, trying to like rally the troops for something like this. So they're around, right?
Zain
35:03
What do you do right after this? You're going to fail on the metric that matters, but you have succeeded on several other metrics. How do you take this and build it? Are you just launching another campaign that's now called defeatgondec.ca and you're starting all over again and continuing the momentum? Give me a sense of how you keep this alive to what ultimately matters. And I know this merges in a bit to the municipal party conversation, but we're heading into about, what, 18 months, Carter? 18-ish months? Right? Yeah,
Carter
35:34
Yeah, it's 18 months. Yeah.
Carter
35:36
Well, and there's absolutely people starting up. And this Project Calgary that claims to be behind the petition now, they're definitely going to be fielding a field of candidates. That seems to be one of their mandates based on leaked documents uncovered by Dwayne Bratt of Mount Royal University. um we're not sure if those documents are real but if they are real and we see a party coming out of this um that party could be you
Carter
36:09
you know probably set up with the most infrastructure of any potential party in the election because they're going to have so many names and so many people that they can access um you know you're not supposed to use these names for anything but the petition petition
Zain
36:27
but but there's but there's also no real rules that prevents them from doing so per se well
Carter
36:33
well there are rules that prevent them from doing so it says that they're not supposed to but you know there's
Carter
36:39
there's no enforcement mechanism beyond elections well there's
Corey
36:42
there's also this notion of parallel petitions or yeah i think okay so you've you're you've signed the petition this one yeah could you also sign up to volunteer join my well
Carter
36:50
well you're on the list and
Carter
36:52
You're signing the electronic ones. Those electronic ones are completely unenforceable because they're not, you know, like the only place that you can't take the data from is from the written form.
Carter
37:03
That's it. Everything else is totally legal. Yeah,
Zain
37:05
Yeah, there you go. Corey, how are you advising this group after they lose the recall? They've got a ton of assets. They seem to have a bit of momentum, and they've got an 18-month horizon until the election. What is the advice you'd be giving them right now? Yeah,
Corey
37:18
Yeah, well, so normally I would think 18 months is a little too long. But now
Corey
37:22
now that we're going to be seeing municipal political parties in Alberta, isn't that a wonderful bridge to this next world? Well, you know, the dream never dies. We didn't get this one, but boy, we dented her. And look at how many people have shown that they want a different Calgary. And hey, now that I think about it, maybe different Calgary is a great political party that we should all go create together. And we're doing a founding meeting and it's united by a core of anti-Gondekism. And I'd really like to see you there. And you can easily see how they could propel that into six to 12 months of party building, followed by nominations of slates, followed by all of a sudden, here we go. And so it does seem to be a pretty – the
Corey
38:04
the timing is not bad, given the amount of activity they have to do. And in many ways, this allows them to propel a
Corey
38:11
a more conservative political party forward in Calgary, because they have a catalyst that the others won't have at this point.
Zain
38:20
me carter i i you know like cory i was on cbc which means that two out of the three of us were on cbc today um uh earning bank and and one of us was not meeting with doug long um but carter tell me this tell me this rob brown on cbc asked me this question asked the whole panel this question i think it was a really good question as
Zain
38:38
as a political operative or a strategist when you see what's happened here do you see anything with with all these linkages which we haven't gotten into the details of and we may not because fuck it you can do whatever i want um do you see anything nefarious here or is this just is this nefarious or is this just a group of people taking advantage of the moment collecting data elevating engagement and doing the work i
Zain
39:02
i came down on one of those two sides i'm curious to hear your your opinion cory you next on that same question
Carter
39:12
the understand my understanding of the word nefarious there's nothing nefarious about this because this is a group of people who are using a law to you know recall a politician which is entirely legal using uh the legal frames and the communication frames that they've been granted in today's society so from my point of view there's There's nothing particularly nefarious to it. It would be better if there was a sunshine component where the donors to the organization were posted. It would be better if the organizers weren't using essentially a useful idiot as their front guy. But that's not nefarious.
Carter
39:58
nefarious. It's just it's taking advantage of the rules as they are currently written. written that's something that i do and i don't think that i'm a nefarious practitioner
Carter
40:08
cory cory does but i don't think i your
Zain
40:10
your your take on this is this is this nefarious or is this just what organizing looks like even if you don't agree with what is being organized or what ends they're trying to organize too well can't
Corey
40:21
be both right i mean what steven's talking about is the status quo it is the norm we have a very rules-based culture where the rules all of a sudden become the guidelines through which we then establish
Corey
40:33
establish all of our other activities, whether they're particularly ethical or moral or any of those other higher concepts you want to apply to them. And I'm not trying to get on a soapbox here, but I will say we have certainly slid in terms of what we allow. Because, you know, I found myself agreeing with Stephen, like, yeah, it's not really nefarious. It's people doing the work.
Corey
40:54
But we also just spent a bunch of minutes talking about them tricking people into getting onto lists. We talked about them being a little bit duplicitous about this. We even mentioned in passing, these signs probably aren't even legal the way that they're put up. But no, not nefarious. That's our conclusion at the end of the day. And what is that? Like,
Corey
41:12
Like, how is that our conclusion at the end of the day, based on the conversation we just had? Right? And so I'm torn because I did kind of agree with Stephen, like, ah, it's just just organizing but on the other hand fuck that's
Corey
41:27
that's just organizing jesus we all gotta up up ourselves here so
Carter
41:33
so let's just one of the reasons why recall so it's insidious recalls evil it's fine it's good i don't even know what do
Zain
41:40
do we want to go here this is where i wanted to go in the over under and lightning round should we just should we just well it's gonna be
Zain
41:45
be longer than the yeah well first
Carter
41:46
first of all are we not done yet i said let's keep it to 30 let's move on to our over
Zain
41:50
over Over under in our lightning round, Stephen Carter, a recall legislation. Are you in or are you out? I am
Carter
41:55
am so out on recall legislation. You know what we have? We have a system that every four years recalls all the politicians. Everybody starts from scratch. It's called an election, Zane. Oh, okay. It's called an election. And you can unelect anybody you want at any time. And it doesn't require bogus fucking recall legislation that is stacked so high no one can actually do it. this is a bullshit piece of legislation that purports to to put democracy back in the hands of the people but really all it does is give people who are whiny little bitches some sort of opportunity to uh put you know to to make life miserable for people who've stepped up to fucking serve if you don't like the person who's in office you know what i got a solution for you run you fucking lazy bastards run cory
Corey
42:47
cory uh why is carter wrong listen
Corey
42:51
recall should be possible but it should be hard and it is right it's fine to say don't like the person in office run what if that person's not planning to run again what if they get elected and they say you know what oh fuck it i'm gonna do whatever i want like our whole check the only check we have in a system and without recall is we assume that the politician wants to run again. And because they want to run again, we will be able to hold them to account at that particular moment, particularly, particularly with nonpartisan elections like mayoral elections, where there's not like a party you can hold to account afterwards here. There's also the reality that sometimes people do deeply egregious things and need to be removed. And the decision to remove them, we can give it to a bunch of different groups, but the one that is the most democratic is to give it to the voters. So I repeat, recall should be possible, but it should be hard. And that is the system that we have.
Carter
43:45
We have ministers, we have judges, we have laws, we have checks and balances in how the processes work, how the MGA is written, how the administration works with elected officials. We have checks and balances all over the place. Plus, I reiterate, a check and balance called an election every four years. um
Carter
44:03
um where where it doesn't matter if you're running again or not if you're not running again it just means that it's easier for the person who who wanted to run the recall petition to suddenly step up and become a candidate you
Carter
44:15
you know step up and be a candidate step up you know what there are so many ways of having your opposition heard this isn't exactly a dictatorship that we We have to overthrow through some sort of a recall mechanism. At
Corey
44:28
At the end of the day, we,
Corey
44:31
we, the voters, are in charge. We're in charge. No, you're
Carter
44:35
you're not. You get the opportunity to make choices. You're not in charge. It's a representative democracy. No. Not a direct democracy. The
Corey
44:44
The collective we are in charge. And if we don't like what is happening between elections, recall provides us an avenue where we can change people's courses. And that's fine. And that's good. And it's certainly not undemocratic, as I've seen some people suggest. And for everybody complaining about the cost of a recall, let me introduce you to my friend, cost of a general election. Democracy costs money. Democracy is worth it. And we should be looking at ways that we can support and strengthen our democracy and reduce the cynicism and democracy of, oh, they're just going to do whatever the fuck they want. Well, they can't, because we can recall them. That's a good thing.
Carter
45:21
The only thing that you've said that's even close to correct is that the cost of the recall doesn't matter because the cost of the recall is borne by the people who are mostly recalling. Unfortunately, that's an opaque set of data that we don't get to see because it's hidden behind a nonprofit society that's not going to be reporting how much money they raised and from whom. So shady influencer groups get to come in and bring in all this money from places not even in Alberta necessarily. From organizations, not necessarily in Alberta, and it's unlimited dollars. Unlimited dollars to unseat a politician when you've got limited dollars to actually manage the politician. Great
Corey
46:01
Great argument for campaign finance reform, not a great argument to get rid of recall.
Zain
46:06
I'm just going to step in here and I'll just pencil both of you in for overrated. Okay.
Zain
46:15
Overrated, underrated. An actual question with that frame, the current Recall Gondek campaign. As an organizer, as a strategist, that's the hat I want you to put on what they've been able to do or what we think they've been able to do, overrated or underrated overall, despite your opposition
Carter
46:31
Overrated. I mean, nothing's going to change. It's not like people are going to be rethinking the way that they're approaching the big issues that are coming for city council. That's not going to happen.
Zain
46:43
Corey, overrated or underrated, what this group has been able to do thus far? are what we think they've been able to do uh
Corey
46:47
uh both or all three even i would say oh
Corey
46:51
cory i'm gonna go with
Zain
46:52
for our next one
Zain
46:52
let me tell you why my
Zain
46:54
oh my god jesus christ yeah carter are you just set your watch i'm here we go that's good do you got a warm blanket it's time here
Carter
47:01
here we go it's time for professor hogan's
Corey
47:03
lecture it's um underrated because this does afford all sorts of powers to the people who have built these lists that will give them undue influence in the the next election. I mean, that's just a reality. It's overrated if you think it's going to get rid of Mayor Gondek. But it's also underrated in the sense that this little experiment is likely to change our recall legislation. People have seen this. People have said the bar is both too high and too low. It is too low to sort of start the recall process. And it is too high to get to this next phase. Because one thing we haven't really talked about, the petition doesn't remove the mayor. The petition then forces a vote, where if a majority decide to vote that way, they can remove the mayor. So it seems like just a thing, but it's not just a thing. It's a thing that is going to change the legislation going forward, I believe, because they've already said they're going to bring in adjustments to recall as a result of our experience here and the experiences of other municipalities.
Zain
48:02
Carter, would you, for
Zain
48:04
for our next question, would you use recall
Zain
48:07
recall as a political tool if you found it politically advantageous. You hate it, but it's there. You just told me you're a rules-based person. You work with the rules. If you were advising someone in a situation where your upside would be organization, data, all the stuff that this group is getting, I understand you said it's overrated, but it's not invaluable. I actually am more with Corey on this, that what their collection and the apparatus at their building is probably underrated.
Zain
48:31
Would you use it?
Carter
48:33
Listen, I don't want to soft launch the seven recall campaigns that I've got got lined up for After the Recall Gondek campaign. But let's just say there's seven counselors who are going to become very uncomfortable in the next couple of months. And it makes me happy. It brings me joy.
Corey
48:51
have no idea if he's going to be comfortable. I honestly don't either.
Zain
48:53
Corey, last question. Will he or won't he? Will
Zain
48:57
Will Anthony Housefather become a conservative sometime this year? No.
Zain
49:04
Carter, will he or won't he?
Zain
49:10
shout out to our buddy doug wong we're gonna leave that episode there that's a wrap on episode 1294 the strategist my name is zane velge with me as always cory hogan stephen carter and we'll see you next time