Transcript
Zain
0:01
This is a strategist episode 1283. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Stephen Carter, and of course, Corey Hogan. Corey, go ahead, do it, please.
Zain
0:11
Man, you do realize... That was pathetic. Yeah, the impact you are looking for. No one can even hear that.
Zain
0:17
I agree with Carter. The impact you're looking for, Corey, it rarely delivers
Zain
0:22
delivers every time you open up a can. It sounds extremely meek. It sounds like you're drinking beverages from several years ago just to show us how poor the carbonation is do
Corey
0:31
do you know what it's uh it's like a metaphor it's like sit down have a drink with us put your feet up the strategist is because oh you think
Corey
0:39
your pals steven and zane that's our brand you're better cory hogan i think we've
Zain
0:43
we've already established our brand is not here yeah
Corey
0:47
i think it is i think that's our brand you know it's all just a very relaxed scene i think we're a relaxed scene i think that That we're chill, as the kids would say.
Carter
0:55
Speaking of which, did you put any product in your hair today? Because that does not look good. Well,
Corey
0:59
Well, it's very chill, Stephen.
Carter
1:01
Stephen. Oh, okay. Is that what it is? It's a chill
Corey
1:02
chill day. We're having a chill day. It's also chill for Corey. It's just a nice, chill
Zain
1:06
chill Sunday. He turns off all the heating for his family and his home every time he records. That's the level of dedication. It's extremely chill there all the time.
Carter
1:14
pretty chill. It's under zero again.
Zain
1:15
Carter, I assume you've been watching the Grammys going on as we record right now. Who's going to be winning Album of the Year?
Carter
1:24
Yeah, it's probably going to be Taylor Swift.
Zain
1:25
Yeah, yeah. Corey, you know, you're a big Swifty in your own right, arguably the biggest Swifty of the group. Is it going to be Taylor?
Corey
1:35
Yeah, with her spoken word album that she did. Yeah,
Corey
1:40
Yeah, it's a good spoken word album, I think.
Zain
1:43
Corey mailing it in with the jokes. Carter, we're going to... I mean... Okay, you do it. Corey, you want a second? Go at it.
Zain
1:48
do it, I mean... It didn't work. I feel like that's what he's starting to focus for the first time. yeah
Corey
1:53
yeah go ahead yeah carter
Zain
1:54
carter let him go he's got he's got something going on you want to let him go yeah no well he was barely he's barely turning on the stove with a taylor swift audiobook joke which is
Corey
2:04
is just it's fine go ahead it's very very chill it's just a very chill time
Zain
2:07
let's move it on to our first segment carter our first segment why the fuck do we still do this for those that are uninitiated to this segment steven carter i introduce a topic i introduce something that that happens in our political universe. It happens often. And usually it happens or has happened recently, which allows us to talk about it. And one of the things I want to talk about in this under, or I should say, under this banner, Stephen Carter, of why the fuck do we still do this, is going after strategists, campaign managers, and advisors. We have talked for a a very long time that the public's attention span is limited, that they could barely name a local candidate, that they could barely name a cabinet minister, let alone most people, or a good portion of people, don't even know who their premier is, and occasionally some people have no idea who the prime minister is. Yet, in politics, we see it all the time. Rather than going after the main person, the principal you're trying to take down, people go after their advisors, unelected folks. Sometimes Sometimes they're not even in the office. Sometimes they're just informally advising someone's campaign or someone's ambitions or someone's pathway towards becoming the next leader of a country in this particular case that I'll mention. And Carter, we now have our newest example of why the fuck do we still do this as related advisors, because the liberals are going after Jenny Byrne. She's, of course, known as the senior advisor to Pierre Polyev's camp. She was a former podcaster, so part of the Klan in that sense, ran Stephen Harper's campaign, the one that had the famous barbaric cultural hotlines, you know, tactic near
Zain
3:54
the end. And she is now a known, at least in the small political circles, advisor to Pierre Pauliev and his ambitions to become the next prime minister of Canada. Carter, the liberals have kind of waged an attack that goes after Jenny Byrne and goes even further, goes after her firm for being registered lobbyists for Loblaws, the giant grocer, on the heel as a draw or a wedge of contrast as Pierre Poliev talks about grocery prices being too high and Justin Trudeau being responsible for those high grocery prices. So Carter, let's park the issue aside for a second in terms of like, is this an effective attack, etc. I promise I'll get to it. But answer my question, because this is usually how we start this segment off. Why the fuck do we still go after unelected advisors, sometimes those that are not even in the office, to make an attack on the principal?
Carter
4:50
Well, a short answer, Zane, is because it works. And the reason that it works is that the media don't care really who's elected and who's not elected. What the media look for is who's got power. And so when you say those, you know, unofficial advisors, I mean, an unofficial advisor is someone with absolutely no, you know, recourse if the public decide that they don't like the advice that's being given. So there's no the dynamic is very fluid. So when people decide to go after Jenny
Carter
5:24
Jenny Byrne, for example, you're going after this person who has an inordinate amount of power or perceived power. And by going after them, you are able to attack and hurt the actual principle. principle. So why do they do it? Because it works. Why does it work? Because people are suspicious of power. That's it in a nutshell. And now I'll hand it over to Corey, who will explain why I'm right, probably. Corey,
Zain
5:53
Corey, the purpose of this segment is just to challenge conventional wisdom, right? We've seen this all the time. We've seen this with liberal advisors, we've seen this with insiders, whatever term you want to use, right? These are people with disproportionate power, as Carter might say without having the unelected banner um why the fuck do we still do this is it just simply because it works no
Corey
6:15
no um yeah i guess that's the pith of it but more to the point it works because people
Corey
6:21
people can hold the people around the leader they
Corey
6:25
they can hold them against the leader in a way they can't even the caucus right like in a funny way it's an extension of this leader centric world we live in the leader gets to pick their advisors the leader gets to pick their staff And those advisors and that staff serve at the pleasure of the leader. So you're actually, in a funny way, more easily able to tie the views and actions of those people to the leader than you are their MPs. So, like,
Zain
6:47
advisors are friends, caucus is family. You really didn't
Corey
6:50
didn't get a choice on caucus. Yeah,
Corey
6:52
Interesting. That's a shockingly good metaphor. Explain shockingly.
Corey
6:57
Well, I mean, we're just a couple of guys sitting around, chilling, and you're bringing the rake
Corey
7:02
rake in. I felt like that was a targeted statement,
Zain
7:04
statement, trying to maybe take me down a peg. But Corey, keep going. In some ways, to your point, this is a hand-picked selection by the leader, so it should have greater impact, and it should have a greater dotted line, or potency, in terms of the actions of one being charged as the actions of the other.
Corey
7:30
Yeah. I mean, let's look at the, let's use the conservative caucus as an example. Leslyn Lewis last month was basically putting a petition around suggesting we shouldn't be in the UN as far as I could tell, or at least, you know, there
Corey
7:42
there was a lot of kind of anti-internationalism that was involved in it. And Pierre Polyev kind of can just shrug, you know, and everybody around him is going to be like, well, she was here before he was leader, and what are you going to do? And yeah, he's given her a role, but yeah, he's got to balance the caucus. And that's the thing, Zane. Caucus is seen as like something to be managed and to be dealt with and traded off with, right? And so when you make a decision relative to caucus, that maybe isn't entirely the thing you would always do if you had full unfettered authority. But when you start talking about advisors, when you start talking about staff, you have full unfettered authority. So when your advisor, Jenny Byrne, is working for Loblaws, it's pretty easy to say that
Corey
8:25
that that's something you should have taken into account. That's something you should contemplate as you're doing this. And so it becomes a little bit easier to tie the personality and tie the action of the personality directly to the leader. Now, we can get into the substance of it. I think in some
Corey
8:39
some ways I agree with the charge, and in many ways I don't, because Loblaws is like, what, the fifth or sixth largest company in the country by revenue? There's going to be some work done by them and with them, right?
Zain
8:51
is... And you mean some work done by a lot of people, like in that sense? sense. Well,
Corey
8:57
Well, I mean, Loblaws is going to do work and they're going to do some of it through consultants and some of it through lobbyists and some of it by advisors, right? And so, yeah, I mean, you can look at it both ways, but people also love a good hypocrisy, right? So when the leader says one thing and the people the leader chooses to surround themselves with do another,
Corey
9:16
well, isn't that fun? Carter,
Zain
9:17
Carter, you know, let's get to the specifics in a second and I'll make one mention of one of the specifics just so that we're absolutely clear, which is that Jenny Byrne herself is not one of these registered lobbyists, yet this attack still seems to have at least some juice because I'm reading it from a CBC article, or at least the details that I've kind of verbalized to you all and the listeners. Carter, when I do this segment, I like to ask the simple questions. Should
Zain
9:43
Should we get rid of this? And if not, do you want more or less of this? This particular attack, this particular strategy? Walk me through your thinking on that. Because if you're telling me this is effective. And if Corey's layering that on by saying, you know, this actually is more revelatory about a leader than the caucus that they have and the moves that they do in caucus, should we get rid of this practice? And if not, do you want more or less of it in our politics?
Carter
10:08
Well, I want less of it, because I tend to be the person who is the advisor. And as such, I wind up with a target on my back, right? And
Carter
10:17
that target, you know, it really does depend depend on how strong your leader is as to whether or not they will stand against it. Like, I suspect that Pierre Polyev will stand with Jenny Byrne because it's not only the right thing to do for this particular situation, but it's also, it'd be too painful to lose that input from, I
Carter
10:42
I think, an advisor. While I don't necessarily agree with what Jenny does or how she does it, I think she's incredibly effective at it. So you wouldn't want to lose that if you're Pierre Polyev. She might be your ticket to being the prime minister. So keeping her around, even though there is pain involved with it, is probably the right thing to do for Pierre Polyev. Should we stop this? No, no, of course not. Because we are a product of the people that we have around us. And if we have people around us that are unethical or taking kickbacks or doing something that's really really truly not yeah you know to be not the
Corey
11:21
the case here just to be clear no
Carter
11:23
no absolutely not this is this is the liberals trying to make hay of a perceived conflict of interest or and and perceived hypocrisy and i can even see the hypocrisy i mean it's
Carter
11:35
it's pretty clearly hypocritical but
Carter
11:37
but jenny baron baron is working for a
Carter
11:40
a firm that does lobbying you're gonna wind up in bed with these people It's just, we
Carter
11:45
we were with a firm that did lobbying. We all wound up in bed together, which was awkward. Did I say that right? I mean, that's metaphor. Which,
Zain
11:54
the way, brought to us by, not brought to us by Douglas Mattresses. Corey, I've heard they make mattresses that folks can get in a box. None of us have gotten that mattress, or else we've had plans to record an
Corey
12:06
an entire show. I have an Indy mattress. You have an Indy mattress? I have an Indy mattress. Okay, good. Maybe we can record. Shots fired, Douglas. Yeah. Use the
Zain
12:12
the promo code DAVE45. Actually, just try it. It might work. Just see if it works. Try Dave. Try DAVE45. In fact, try any promo code on your ND mattress. Corey,
Zain
12:23
more of it, less of it? And frankly, I think I almost assume what I think you're going to say on my core question, which is like, should we get rid of this practice? But same question as to Carter. Should we get rid of it? And from a strategist's brain, is
Zain
12:36
is it underutilized, overutilized? Do you want more? Do you want less? Give me your thoughts here. Yeah.
Corey
12:41
More of it for staff and less of it for advisors. Big difference here. Look, I'll be frank. I don't see
Corey
12:47
hypocrisy with advisors. I don't think that a lawyer representing a murderer is pro-murder. I don't think that accountants who do bookkeeping for a company that ends up having done something wrong are pro-accounting fraud. And I don't think consultants who work for companies that have opinions are pro those opinions. opinions it's strategic advice it's a product that the three of us on this podcast have all offered in the past for money and i didn't agree with a lot of the people that i provided the strategic advice to but it was a particular product that we sold and i think it's kind of funny that there is this expectation that if you provide strategic advice to somebody you must agree is it funny though like
Zain
13:24
like in the public side yeah
Corey
13:25
yeah i it is is it like also in a fun can i just take take a tiny detour and get back to kind of the moral point there i
Corey
13:32
think that you get the best strategic advice from people who don't agree with you because we don't have the same blind spots right you're not getting a bunch of people into the room who have the same worldview as you you see their bullshit so much faster you can talk to them about it you can work through it with them so i think there's immense value in hiring people who actually disagree with you and so if i want to use this loblaw example and jenny burn's not even on the file but if she were jenny burn would would be saying to them i think you guys need to realize that you look like a bunch of dicks who are soaking canadians right now right and because she has a different worldview you know ostensibly than the one that blah blahs has that actually helps them that's useful strategic advice for them as they're building lobbying plans as they're building their strategic plans so i think there's actually in a funny way when you see somebody is consulting for somebody you shouldn't assume that they have the same worldview and you might even want to think maybe they emphatically don't But in terms of like the morals and the ethics of all of this, whatever,
Corey
14:27
whatever, right? Like again, like lawyers have clients of all sorts of ilk. Consultants of all types take on all sorts of projects that they have varying degrees of enthusiasm for.
Corey
14:39
And I mean, frankly, there's even people who work for companies who don't, aren't thrilled by those companies after they get up and go to work, right? That's just, that's the way the world is. Can I come back? Some things will never change. I'm
Zain
14:49
I'm going to come back to you on the more for staff, less for advisors.
Zain
14:52
they'll put up in a – Carter, I need you to react to this. Corey makes a compelling case. Is it a politically attuned case? Because I think in the sense – give it to me. Give it to me why. I
Carter
15:04
I mean, oh, the media are going to just parse through this and say, you know what? I don't think this conflict of interest is real enough because we don't actually know what Jenny Byrne is saying to Loblaws. Maybe she's saying that they were a bunch of assholes. Yeah, that's probably what she's saying. let's hold this off then let's see if we can't come up with a better uh some sort of a better outcome no no
Carter
15:24
no this is bullshit cory i kind of end with the truth of the matter is i like your explanation is very logical but
Zain
15:30
but i'm kind of with carter on the politics totally
Carter
15:32
totally true by the way he's totally right he's totally correct no it's compelling except for the idea that people should see around that i mean by god we know that the average voter is barely engaged at all all um you think that they're going to parse through and do we think that the media the media have the ability to kind of report this stuff properly like come on they're after the headline this is a headline it works they were fed the story they bit down this is what this is the way that the world works now and and should it work that way i don't know does it work i mean that was yes literally
Corey
16:08
literally the question should we see less of this my point is simply that my point is this yeah make your point
Corey
16:14
my yeah my point is that when we're talking about volunteers when we're talking about advisors look
Corey
16:20
look we we don't own their time as political parties as governments right they are they are people who are involving in in a part-time basis and they have an other part of their life that they need to manage and we shouldn't make it a massive we getting involved in politics shouldn't mean you have to bring politics into every other part of your life that's the fundamental thing that i believe and so my should is maybe not on like a media is it a good hit point of view it's on a civics point of view which is we don't need to penalize people for being involved in politics in every other aspect of their lives well
Carter
16:52
well can you hear the music like did we put music under that can we put music under that well he does edit it so i'm sure he
Carter
16:58
yeah so when you're editing it to make him look yeah can
Carter
17:01
you throw some music underneath because that was you want to be
Zain
17:04
be a bit more specific are you thinking clown music are you thinking soft jazz
Zain
17:07
like Like, elevator music? I mean, anything. I'm thinking rising violins at
Zain
17:10
17th. I'm thinking whoever wins album of the year, we just put their whole album through the entire, through the entire. That's a great idea. Let's just figure out. Get
Carter
17:18
Get this copyright struck right off the bat. That'd be perfect. Let's do
Zain
17:23
Corey, talk to me about staff, more on staff, a little bit more.
Corey
17:28
That's different. Their time is paid for by the party, by the government, by the opposition caucus. caucus they they do need to be held account for their actions and their involvement and if one of them was moonlighting and giving advice to loblaws on the side i'd feel very different swear
Zain
17:43
swear that though with your first statement in regards to like the company you keep with advisors versus staff right like you're you're trying the tighter line on advisors looser looser sort of connection on on or the tighter sort of connection on on advisors looser connection on staff they're not not necessarily your people now he's
Carter
17:59
he's just making he's i'm
Zain
18:01
i'm curious about so let him explain let him explain look
Corey
18:04
look i in the first instance i kind of combined staff and advisors and said it's easier to tie them to the leader than
Corey
18:10
than elsewhere but i think staff are the ones you most tie to the leader because they do serve at the leader's pleasure advisor can be a very fuzzy term an advisor might not have a box on an org chart or anything like that people can float in and out of being advisor there's politicians i've known in the past who i would say at certain points i I would kind of think of myself as an advisor. I'd talk to them almost every day. And there's other times I'd go months without talking to
Corey
18:32
Was I an advisor then? I don't know, right? But the point is, it's a much less concrete
Corey
18:37
concrete and specific role. And so sometimes you're engaged a lot, and sometimes you're not. That's the reality of it. And as a result, I think it's a lot harder to hold them to account. Because if in one of those doldrums where you're not talking to them for months, they do something, what the hell does that mean? What does it do? And like, I'm not saying Jenny Byrne is that situation. But my point is, the
Corey
18:58
the difference between an advisor and staff is an advisor's time is their own, a staff person's time is the leader's. That's what it comes down to. Carter,
Zain
19:06
Carter, let's talk about the specifics of this attack. And there's one question I'll save a little bit later that I find particularly interesting, which takes us back into maybe some of the branding and the mechanics here. But Carter, is this like a solid attack by the liberals? Do you like this angle, like on the specifics now, on Jenny Byrne, on her firm, on the six or so associates, I believe, not including her, to be clear, that are registered as lobbyists on the file of costs of living and groceries? Do you like this package and what they're trying to imply with it and what the attack ultimately is trying to do?
Carter
19:43
do i like it yeah like it as a strategist is an interesting question the
Carter
19:48
the way i would put it is i think it's a very good strategy i
Carter
19:51
think that the strategy itself will work it is working and it may even have legs um meaning that it will it will last beyond just the the end of the week right and i think that this could
Carter
20:04
could be a very good thing i don't like it same i don't like any any Any time that – I'm
Carter
20:10
I'm actually very much on the side of Corey's little soliloquy over there about good government and how we shouldn't have politics bleed over into the rest of a person's life. So it's
Carter
20:24
very cute. But it's bullshit. It's never going to happen that way. So recognizing
Carter
20:28
recognizing the reality of the world, I live more on the lines of, yeah, I mean, this is going to work. If you want
Carter
20:36
want to regain some of that power, which I think is important that you regain, then,
Carter
20:41
then, you know, taking a swing at
Carter
20:43
at Pierre Polyev through Jenny Byrne is probably pretty good. Corey, effective
Zain
20:47
effective attack? I won't repeat the whole question, but never mind, effective attack at the end of the day, strategically?
Corey
20:54
Well, I think so. I do think it's a bullshit attack because, again, it's not even on the file. But I think it's an effective attack because you're able to tie. It's an interesting one. Let me put it this way. Let's talk this out for just a second here.
Corey
21:10
The liberals are the government, right? And so it is a bit funny to be like, I can't believe you're talking to Loblaws and all of these high prices. Like, what are you doing about it, liberals? Like, it's a bit ridiculous in that sense. In
Corey
21:21
some ways, it feels almost more like a natural attack for the NDP than it does the Liberals. But ultimately, there is kind of the enemy of my enemy is my friend thing. And to a lot of Canadians, law of laws is the enemy. And so it's an interesting connection that they've managed to bring in there. And I don't know that it will play the dividends that Carter is saying over the long term, but it certainly didn't hurt them this week. Corey,
Zain
21:48
Corey, can I can I get specific with you for a second on something that I find fascinating? I think you might find it fascinating, too. But we'll find out how
Zain
21:59
or what part of this attack in terms of it being at least initially effective. And by which I mean, like the fact that we're talking about it, it was said in the house articles written about it. it how
Zain
22:10
much of that do you think is and to be totally clear she's not on this file but
Zain
22:16
but how much of that is do you think because the firm's name is jenny burn and associates versus
Zain
22:21
versus being named anything else and i just find that so
Zain
22:25
interesting because she could have named like i own a firm my name's not on it right um you know and and you know with my business partner um so this could have been named sugar water for all we know right like sugar water public affairs or or whatever. And it wouldn't, would it have been as potent as it is having the visual of six people, first name, last name, and Jenny Burton Associates repeated six times in a column, two over, so to speak. And I'm kind of curious to get your thoughts around like the mechanics and the potency of the attack based on that.
Corey
22:58
Yeah, it's an excellent point. I think if the company had had a different name, that would be one thing. Might not be enough if she owned 100% of it, But if it was sort of a division of ownership and it had a different name, then
Corey
23:10
then she just says, well, what do you want from me? Like, it's a company that makes decisions and it's a big company. But it's not a big company, right? And it's got her name on it. And so, this had actually all of the elements that made it harder for her to distance herself from the working
Corey
23:26
working question and the filing question. And, you know, it's actually a very interesting point in that it becomes quite difficult when you are kind of the masthead, when you are the CEO, when you're the president, to distance yourself from any of the work that goes on, because the buck is supposed to stop there. And we can talk about putting up walls between various clients and the various sets of work that are happening at an organization.
Corey
23:50
And they exist, you know, lawyers do it all the time, strategic consultants do it all the time. People do this all the time. It's well established and well structured. But to the public, good luck, right? Like you're still the president, you're still the boss, you're still the person who is responsible for everything that goes on at that place. And
Zain
24:07
And Carter, you know, one of the things that I was thinking about, you know, it's not that she's just got her name on it, she's got her full name on it. It's not just like Byrne and Associates, it's like Jenny Byrne and Associates. There's no squirming away from it. The name is going to be constantly repeated over and over again. First name, last name, so to speak. uh i just
Corey
24:27
just realized she's gonna write a biography someday called the burn book oh
Zain
24:32
i think well i i mean if she's gonna if
Zain
24:35
if she's gonna write it she's definitely not going to be able to use the burn book.ca to sell that book
Zain
24:44
only thing i know we gotta stop
Carter
24:46
stop spending so much money on these things uh
Zain
24:51
mean i'm getting into a bit of nerd but
Carter
24:53
but why did she okay
Zain
24:54
okay go keep going keep going right she
Carter
24:57
she got the business because she is jenny burn right and one of the reasons that she got the business is because she's close to uh the person that is perceived to be the next the next prime minister of canada we
Zain
25:07
we know that part being true i don't know if i can know the first part being true but i i get where you're going yes you
Carter
25:12
you know she she's talented she's got the capacity She's she's monetizing. I mean, I think we've created a really perverse system in Canada where, you know, if you're involved in politics, the best thing to do is become a lobbyist rather than joining the public service. Because working on a political campaign, you can do whatever you want afterwards. Working in government, you have to wait five years before you can become Jenny Byrne and Associates. uh
Carter
25:40
uh so jenny's taking the the smart play she's taking the money that she i think that she's earned through her talent and her capacity um and it
Carter
25:51
it comes with a price and that price is public scrutiny and so whether it was called jenny burn and associates or um you know sugar
Zain
26:01
public affairs which sugar
Carter
26:01
sugar water public affairs um it's still going to get the attention attention because she's
Carter
26:07
she's the boss she's you don't think you don't
Zain
26:10
don't think it's period you don't think it sticks because it's her firm like full name first name last name associates totally
Carter
26:15
totally it would stick regardless though oh
Zain
26:18
oh see this is i'm trying to say you don't think it sticks more that's the question i'm coming into it which is like you don't think it actually this is like what's really helping the story because to me my i actually think it is in some ways um cory what would
Zain
26:31
would you advise her, if
Zain
26:33
if she were to seek Corey Hogan out for advice in the sense of her name being splashed all over these pages, Carter saying, people like Stephen Carter saying, there could be legs here, which is a term we use often, which ultimately means there could be a second, third news cycle, there could be more developments, there could be media and others wanting to chase this, the political opposition in case the liberals and NDP may want to go poke further. What advice would you give her on how to think about something like this?
Corey
27:00
you know i think we've kind of stumbled upon it throughout your line of questioning here which is i would probably recommend a different name for the organism this is like long-term solutions not short-term let's get you out of today's problem i think i'd say for today's problem you know what this too shall pass but uh there are probably some concrete steps you can and should take that will inoculate you from these attacks going forward i don't know what her Her current day-to-day role is at the organization, but I would probably not even do... I would be like chairman emeritus or executive chairperson or something to that effect, right? And have a day-to-day president
Corey
27:37
president of the company, change
Corey
27:40
change the name of the corporation. You can do the two in tandem to sort of reflect that. And then when these things come up next time, you say, yeah, I founded it. It's a very successful organization. I'm very proud of it. My focus right now is on the campaign. I'm not involved in those day-to-day decisions. This is just more smear and lies from a desperate floundering government that, you know, is so concerned with what Loblaws is doing that they'll dig through, you know, the lobbyist registry and what a company I'm associated with does, but won't actually solve the problem themselves. Like this is the level of competence and quality that we have from our current government. So yeah, let's talk about what we're going to do about, you know, high grocery prices. Let's talk about the fact that they only seem high because our, you know, wages are stagnant. You know, the growth of GDP in this country is non-existent. Everything seems more expensive because we're all standing still while the world gets more expensive. So, you know, maybe there's a way you do that and just sort of move on with your life from there. But I think those are longer term plays. I think in the short term, I wouldn't sweat it too much. We're a ways to an election. And, you know, can't really even say years anymore, though, eh?
Corey
28:49
we're a ways to an election and this is just something that now you have gotten a bit of indication this might be a game the liberals play so clean it up govern yourself accordingly make sure that you are dealing with it both in in a i always tell people there's mitigation and messaging right the mitigation has changed your structure a bit change the name so that you have actually distanced yourself from these things going forth the messaging then flows from that which is not really that involved in those day-to-day decisions. And let's turn it back on the liberals. So just have good mitigation and have good messaging.
Zain
29:22
Carter, what advice would you give her?
Carter
29:26
I like a lot of Corey's advice. I wouldn't worry so much about the mitigation around changing the name. I do like the idea of changing her title within the organization, organization uh making it look less like she was involved in the day-to-day um but i i really think that you know this is the price of of this type of success i mean there's there's a reason i don't go into lobbying uh and in fact you'll find that there's an awful lot of organizations that have
Carter
30:00
big names at the top of them who and
Carter
30:05
and the big names never register the
Carter
30:07
the big names at the top of of the organization don't register as a lobbyist they
Carter
30:11
wind up being you
Carter
30:13
know the president of the organization and they make a couple of telephone calls every once in a while but they're not lobbying no i mean they're just they're
Carter
30:20
they're just there to to
Carter
30:21
to uh you know pass along intelligence that's all answer questions not lobby i mean they would never stoop
Carter
30:28
stoop so low but
Carter
30:29
but i think those types types of firms exist all over the place and uh you know that's not a question for this podcast but i think that that's a question for why
Carter
30:40
why we created the system that we've created it
Zain
30:42
it is it is an interesting point it is an interesting question for this podcast though around like some of the big names that run some of these massive firms that that dominate the lobbying and public affairs industry in this country often are just strategic counsel and now outright right lobbyists and and to give themselves
Zain
30:59
themselves that that latitude or to keep their powder dry or for a myriad of reasons cory you wanted to jump in here well
Corey
31:05
well look i think jurisdiction to jurisdiction you got to be careful there because sometimes strategic council counts as registrable activity here in alberta it can in certain circumstances inexplicably unless it's an issue in the public domain in which case it's not which is like the world's biggest loophole we have created here in alberta so if the government's talking about it you can talk to them about it and it's not lobbying wow that's pretty wild but um the thing that i also think is worth noting is steven's point about how we've created this perverse system where there's actually a lot more benefit on staying outside of government than inside is so spot on it is like if especially federally it is a long time that you don't get to do the things that you probably are most qualified to do once you've taken over government
Corey
31:53
and that's pretty wild and look i'll even say in
Corey
31:55
in my own personal instance it's not um you know i i ended up quite liking the work that i went into but part of the reason i went from government to kind of the mush sector is that was a way to kind of ease out of lobbying restrictions right like it's just it's not it's not practical in many cases to move from very senior government jobs directly to the private sector because you can't do anything for a year or two well
Zain
32:19
well and i think we've as
Corey
32:20
as the case we know
Zain
32:20
know like live examples So, you know, I wouldn't be singling it out other than the fact that it's been reported elsewhere that Navdeep Bains, the former, you know, senior liberal cabinet minister is now sitting at Rogers frozen out of lobbying. One of the principal things that they've hired him to do is effectively kind of move the needle with this government. So, you know, it is interesting in that broader regard in terms of folks having this chill period in ways. Well, yeah.
Corey
32:48
yeah. And you, you, you know, again, this is kind of a, I'm really doing a Jim Prentice look in the mirror tour here with my second in like three weeks of saying you get what you get. Like we created these rules and of course people are going to act accordingly.
Corey
33:02
And I, you know, I can't, I can't speak negatively enough about some of the downside that's occurred as a result of this. Now, they were created for a reason and you don't want a revolving door either, but it's quite possible we've gone a little bit too far. are so if you're a jenny burn type what why would you destroy your livelihood for so long by the way this is not just about freeze outs it's about the fact that they've really ground down people on wages right you can make more money outside of the system than in the system you can actually be employed outside
Corey
33:31
outside of the system instead of having to be on the sidelines in
Corey
33:34
the system or after a stint in the system it's
Corey
33:37
it's it's really weird and we're kind of creating this shadow shadow environment. So, you know, as we talk this out, those advisors becoming more important, maybe that's a lot of the reason why we're looking at them more and more, because more of the system is actually occurring there. That
Zain
33:52
That leaves us on a good note, Corey. We're going to leave that segment there. Carter, we're going to move it on to our next segment. This one, of course, brought to us by our sponsor. Yes, they're still around. This is the Flair Airlines Miracle Takeoff. Carter, Flair Airlines, our smaller fleet, now means fewer delays for you. Carter, a lot of their fleet are more than likely going to be um part of the government of canada's um backup infrastructure we might actually use them
Carter
34:18
them as military because if i wind up working for the government i mean we may as well flare
Zain
34:23
airlines might actually see some some action on on the ground we might even be going to the middle east with some more flare airlines flights wow yeah that short haul that you took from vancouver i mean you didn't take it because it didn't go anywhere no
Zain
34:34
didn't go anywhere that was scheduled for you that might actually find itself as a as a goc plane maple leaf on the side represented canada somewhere cory probably built in 1963 you know stills got a good it's very six
Corey
34:47
six to eight months
Corey
34:48
shelf life they're new planes i think they're likely
Corey
34:50
likely we don't know
Zain
34:50
know that i mean they haven't told me in the copy so you know carter it's time for the miracle takeoff we talk about the flare airlines miracle takeoff when there is a campaign to be launched a campaign to get started and we come back home to alberta Because the Alberta NDP leadership race starts officially. The official period starts tomorrow. And we record here Sunday, February 4th, I should say, tomorrow, Monday, February 5th. You're able to go if you want to. You are able to launch your campaign. And Carter, I less so wanted to focus on the specifics of who's going when and if, because we'll find all that out shortly. We'll
Zain
35:29
find some of it out shortly. So let's park that, so to speak. week. Let's talk about the strategy of launching together. And is there a strategic benefit of all going at the same time of the wait, one or two days, a week? Talk to me about how you think about launches. We've talked in the past about launch as it's how important a launch is, and we've had deep dives into that. I'm going to put that also on the side today. Today, I want to talk Talk about less so what your launch is, more so the timing of your launch as related to your competitors when the gate is kind of, when the race is relatively narrow like this one is. And so give me your thoughts about this. If you're one of these cams thinking about it, let's assume all your vetting and all that sort of stuff is behind you. Let's not get bogged down in those technicalities. From a pure strategic choice perspective, the ability to cluster your launch together within a day or two, so to speak, within the same week, good, bad? Are you into that? Are you not into that? talk to me about how you would think about this if you were advising a particular camp i
Carter
36:33
like to get a full cycle meaning a full media cycle to myself uh to the candidate alone um because here's the truth right the truth is that if you launch first you have a benefit because then every other campaign that launches you're going to be mentioned in that other person's article so you're going you know you're going to stay in the discussion so even if it's just the sentence at the end that uh you know zane velgey joins cory hogan and stephen carter already in the race uh we welcome zane to the race blah blah blah whatever however it's going to be phrased but going on the same day i've never actually been in the situation where you know we launch on monday and we anticipate multiple campaigns launching that day um generally speaking i I wouldn't see an advantage to that because now I got to share my only day of guaranteed media,
Carter
37:26
my only day of getting the top billing.
Carter
37:30
I now have to share that with three other or two other one other campaign. And I don't want that. I'd rather hold for a week because all I'm doing in that week is, you
Carter
37:42
you know, getting the same media as these other people. And I just don't see that that is an advantage. Not at all.
Zain
37:49
Corey, are you still thinking through the frame that Carter is on media cycle? Not to be so reductive, Carter, in saying that's your only lens, but I'm curious, A, Corey, are you thinking it through that same frame? And B, your thoughts on like these clustered sort of launches in a narrowed window or a narrow timeframe?
Corey
38:07
Yeah, well, since we started recording here, Kathleen Ganley posted that tomorrow she's got an important announcement been at 10am. So that's Monday. So, you
Corey
38:15
you know, I think this is kind of game on. We have heard rumors that there are at least one other campaign, maybe two that are going to launch tomorrow and that everybody's kind of going out the gate. I generally agree with Stephen, it seems weird for everybody to crowd on at the same time. But these things are always prisoners dilemmas. And there's always dynamics at play here that will make you move one way or the other. And the other thing I will say is people
Corey
38:40
people can set plans and then be stubborn about them when they realize that everyone else is going they're like well fuck it i'm going anyways i'm still going to do it but um the uh the idea that you're going to have a couple of people on the first official day of the race jump in is also somewhat tied i believe in this case to the fact that
Corey
38:58
it's so clear that there are campaigns that are up and running right now
Corey
39:02
and so they want to sort of be out in the public they want to be able to have the things campaigns out in the public and do like fundraise and you
Corey
39:08
you know like advertise and have
Corey
39:11
have offices and phone numbers and websites and and those things matter too and so i think a lot of calculations probably being made that the media benefit steven's talking about of going a week later and what is ultimately like what like a 10-week campaign like it's you know there's not
Corey
39:26
not a lot of time you uh because the membership cut off is in april uh it's just not worth it so you want to go when you want to go that said these these things are prisoner's dilemmas. So if one
Corey
39:37
one campaign decides, I'm not going to do that, and I'm going to go a bit later, a couple days later, a week later, that can also afford some advantages here too. I
Corey
39:46
I also think in the context of this Alberta NDP campaign, we'd be remiss not to talk about the obnoxiously transparent, will I, won't I, Nahed Nenshi stuff that started on Friday, and then following up with his flurry of activity and people around him just coming to to this lightning bolt moment. Oh, shucks, I never thought about it till just now, but maybe he'd be okay too. And I'm sure a lot of these campaigns just want to stomp on that right fucking quick and say, no, this is not going to be a coronation. We're out here, we're running, we're going to do our thing. And certainly assert that this is going to be an Alberta NDP race as well. So that's another reality. Carter,
Zain
40:23
Carter, and we'll see all the specifics, so to speak. My question for you is in regards to being that solo camp alone. How do, if you've made that strategic decision, and of course, I say this without any prior knowledge of any campaign that's gonna go like next week or something, right? But let's assume there's someone who's like wanting to wait or not wanna go in the same, let's say 48 hour period. I'm gonna make an arbitrary call, okay?
Zain
40:48
How do you maintain discipline? Like Corey makes a really interesting sort of like point here, right? Like you've got a strategy, let's say you buy in on some media cycle cycle, and then you see your competitors go.
Zain
41:00
They go at 10 a.m. tomorrow. Let's say 10 a.m. is the first one.
Zain
41:02
And they're going to start getting their first checks, and they maybe got a fundraiser they've organized, or they've been working on for a long time, or they're going to start selling memberships. And you see the activity, and you're just like, ugh, should we go early? Should we just do it? Should we actually downgrade our launch and just get officially declared so we're also in it, unless they're our names? How do you maintain discipline on something like that when when you made a strategic call. I'm kind of curious to examine that a bit with the two of you, using this as an example.
Carter
41:29
Yeah, I don't think you have to. I think you can, I mean, we have seen time and time again that campaigns are soft-launched, then soft-launched again, and then hard-launched later. You know, that is the nature of campaigning now. You still are, like, if you soft-launch tomorrow, if you leak to the media, you know, that Zane Velji's really anticipating a very strong run and we anticipate him launching sometime within the first three weeks of the campaign period um right now he's just you know he's finalizing a number of things he's not going to launch week like these people are doing tomorrow he's going to launch strong in three weeks um you
Carter
42:08
that you you can still get into the article and you can still get coverage for your campaign launch right
Carter
42:14
right so why would you make this a binary when it's not a binary it's
Carter
42:18
it's not like Like launch tomorrow or you can't get any coverage. Launch tomorrow or you can't do any work. You're not allowed to fundraise. You're not allowed to advertise. But these campaigns have been going for weeks already. Without
Zain
42:32
those assets, so to speak. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Official assets.
Carter
42:37
assets. There are campaigns happening in Mississauga right now that can't be happening for another month. They're
Carter
42:41
They're not happening. You mean to replace Bonnie
Zain
42:43
Bonnie Crombie. Yeah, yeah. Bonnie
Carter
42:45
Bonnie Crombie. one of the counselors has written an op-ed and run it in the in toronto sun saying why i'm running i
Carter
42:53
i mean dude you're not allowed to run there's no campaign for you to run in you're not allowed to run until such times nomination period opens up and then you can start to run but it's you know yeah
Carter
43:02
you just go you just go on your own time frame and it doesn't matter because at the end of the day the media are still going to hit you so they're still going to give you the opportunity to jump in because they want a race. The media always have one bias and one bias only when it comes to leaderships. They want a race. That's what they're there for. And if you bring them a race, it doesn't matter when you come into the race, they're going to get it. They're going to pay attention to you. Corey,
Zain
43:28
Corey, I really like that Carter took my like 2D sort of example, turned it into 3D, being like, why even accept the premise that it's binary? I really think that's a good strategic point. But at some point, Corey,
Zain
43:40
you know, you're going to need money. You're
Zain
43:41
You're going to need to do some of the official things, right? Because you've been starved from it for a while. And there's probably a part of it being like, I wish I could get in there for some of those practical reasons, if I can bucket all of them as being practical reasons for your race. Give me your thoughts on this, around the core question of how do you maintain strategic discipline if you've thought this through in that way?
Corey
44:02
Yeah, you know, this is something that happens a lot in leadership contests, is we jump to general election frames, and we talk about things in general election frames, but I want to build a bit on Stephen's point. These campaigns have been going on for a while. There's nobody who is actively involved in the Alberta NDP who has not been engaged in one of these campaigns, either directly by one of the candidates or through a proxy or somebody who's on an org chart that doesn't exist yet because there's no technical campaign yet, right? This has been happening, and it will continue to happen regardless of whether or not somebody announces tomorrow. And yeah, there's kind of the kick that goes out into the general public there. It is a bit of a starting pistol. It does allow you to do the fundraising things. But every
Corey
44:44
every campaign that doesn't launch tomorrow is still going to be doing stuff tomorrow. They will still be having meetings with community leaders. They will still be selling memberships. And this activity continues unabated. And I actually think it's a super fascinating, like, trap that organizations fall into, which is they start to think they're running a general election. And they start to say, well, we just got to get the, you know, the front page of the Edmonton Journal. We're in great shape. Well, no, that actually doesn't mean a thing unless it sells memberships, you know. And so I think that there are a lot of ways to launch, and there is not necessarily a right way or a wrong way to launch.
Corey
45:20
I think the wrong way to launch is ultimately to play Me Too and to play towards a general election. Those would be the two things you've got to be careful for. Carter,
Zain
45:28
Carter, we'll maybe even dissect some of the strategies and tactics used in some of the launches that we see in the coming week or so. So, or I mean, and to your point, Carter, maybe even in the coming couple of weeks or so, in terms of how some of these campaigns want to roll themselves out. But talk to me about going first. Does it say anything else? And I go back and I'm trying to draw a parallel from last episode when we talked about Daniel Smith's policies being rolled out. And you guys, I think both came, at least one of you said it and the other one agreed to it, which is going first has a certain value in that sense, in terms of responding to Daniel Smith's statement. statement.
Zain
46:06
Talk to me about the value of going first. Let's put the practicality aside. Does it give you anything else, really? It doesn't give you a front-runner status if someone's gonna launch at noon, if you're launching at 10 a.m., using the example that Corey's just put on the board. Does it actually give you materially anything? Like, if I saw Kathleen's tweet right now, and I was running one of those campaigns, and I was gonna launch at 11, and should I even bother sending a text to my team to say, should we launch at 9? Like, and this might sound stupid and petty, but like people think about these things. Like, like we've, we've probably been part of chains. Talk to me about going first on a technicality. Does it actually get you anything in a leadership race?
Carter
46:43
Not really. No. I mean, going first brings very little in the way of value. And the, the thing that brought Danielle Smith value, it wasn't that she went first and
Carter
46:52
and she was the most prepared, right?
Carter
46:54
Doing the work is the only thing that matters. And you can continue to do the work behind the scenes for days weeks i mean this is a relatively short period so you do want to be on the ground with money and making things happen but one of the things i was just thinking about if you really wanted to get a bump if you really wanted to be you know in in a media thing that in a media frenzy that was a little different than everybody else you know what i would do for this race register
Carter
47:22
don't launch register and
Carter
47:25
and then all of a sudden you know what some enterprising journalist is going to find out that you've registered and now they're going to break the story.
Carter
47:32
They're going to break it. And isn't that going to be like 100 times better than any launch that you're going to get? Because the launch is going to hit all the predetermined hits, right? The problem with launching, all launches have the exact same feel to them, right? Certain hits, certain beats that you see every time, and they only generate so much attention. The only thing that really matters is being able to raise money through elections albert you know i'll raise money for through your party and spend that money that's the only thing that really matters so who the fuck cares just register and then launch a week after you register after the story's been broken two stories price of one that
Carter
48:11
that that's that's the only thing you get with launching zane if you go first maybe you get two stories instead of one but tomorrow you don't you're going to be one One third of one story. God,
Zain
48:21
God, Coy, I have to say he's on fire today. I think Carter's responses have been home runs. And I feel like that 10-year-old carbonated drink that you've had needs to kick you
Zain
48:34
you up a gear. Well,
Corey
48:35
Well, I'm just very chilled. What Carter's talking about happened in the UCP race. There were candidates, I think it was Travis Taves, who was listed on Elections Alberta before he made any kind of announcement. And there were people who wrote about it and put it online. i think the broader point though needs to come back to an underline which is people way fucking overthink these sort of things yeah oh
Corey
48:56
oh i mean like you wouldn't believe right they're sitting in campaigns i think we go first and we're going to look the most prepared and the party wants the most prepared person because that's the person who's going to win the next election because the party wants somebody who's going to win the next election so we got to go at 10 a.m on monday right or whatever you know but like the rationale and the logic chains that lead to these decisions and almost the panic of we must do it in this way are
Corey
49:18
are you know you step back from any campaign you've ever worked on you look at them you're like well that wasn't necessary that wasn't yeah that
Zain
49:25
that was a small thing not a big thing sort of thing right even if it was
Corey
49:28
was a small thing not a big thing and uh you know yeah i got that sugar rush of all of a sudden i was online and people were giving me thumbs up emojis left right and center but that that shit doesn't get
Zain
49:39
so like for us we're like desensitized to it completely yeah
Corey
49:41
yeah yeah clearly i I mean, as the strategists, we are regularly used to adulation like that, but candidates are different. Yeah,
Zain
49:48
have thousands of listeners on a weekly basis or those who kind of- Tens of
Corey
49:53
thousands. Sorry, I- Don't sell us short, okay?
Zain
49:55
thousands- Come on, like, fuck it.
Zain
49:56
To be clear, thousands could also be tens of thousands. I was being humble. I wasn't shortchanging us, right? It could actually be every number up until, what, 999,000?
Zain
50:09
Yeah, that's true. I mean,
Corey
50:10
millions are still thousands. I guess it's a good quote.
Corey
50:15
You went for public
Corey
50:15
public school? That's pretty good, Corey.
Zain
50:18
pretty good. I'll let you keep going. Candidates don't get that adulation. And they
Corey
50:23
they overthink it. That was the core of your point. They overthink it. Campaigns overthink all of these things. These moments are much more ephemeral. We've talked about this before. I'm not
Corey
50:32
You know, the Pierre Poliev launch video was just him at a desk. It didn't even look normally like his other videos. videos the other thing is like my
Corey
50:40
my personal view of these campaign launches is you do it when it makes sense for you to do it you fucking get out there and you adjust based on the initial reaction you get back because one of the big challenges campaigns have in this go quiet mode is you don't get the kind of feedback you sometimes need in order to develop the things the way you need to develop them so um once it's all out in the open once you can have these conversations once you you can test messages. Once ads can go out and there's an A version and a B version, your campaign gets a little bit better. But you should start with the idea that the first version of your campaign is not the last version of your campaign. And you will iterate, and
Corey
51:17
and you will improve. And a campaign that is open to that is probably a campaign that's going to be in a stronger position. Yeah,
Zain
51:22
Yeah, even in a 10-week sort of sales period, that's good advice. We're going to leave that segment there, Stephen, moving on to our over, under, and our lightning round. And I say your name, of course, Carter, because we do this for you. We do everything for you. Yeah. So this whole show is literally created for you, Stephen Carter. Are you in or out on the federal government's quote unquote official response with Justice Minister Arif Virani, someone who you actually correctly named on our holiday spectacular of How White? Right. Yes. He accuses Alberta Premier Daniel Smith of demonizing trans kids. He had a whole response. Do you do you are you in or out on the speed and the cadence of the federal government getting involved on this file? It's the way they have now. They said they want to see the legislation before they do anything. So on a pure actions basis, they're
Zain
52:07
they're not doing anything. Rhetoric basis. Are you in or are you out?
Carter
52:12
I'm in. I think the more voices we have, the better off we stand against this, this lunacy. I was super pleased to see so many people in Calgary and Edmonton and then now in the smaller cities as well, standing up against this legislation. And I think that the federal government doing so helps. Unfortunately, there'll be a lot of people who say, oh, anything that Justin Trudeau's government does is bad. So this is this must be bad, too. And I just think that that's very childish.
Carter
52:44
childish. And this is too big, too big, too important an issue to stay on the sidelines. So I'm pleased to see the government in.
Zain
52:54
Corey, you've heard from Holland, you've heard from Boissoneau, you've heard from Arif Farhani, the justice minister I mentioned. Are you in or out broadly on the rhetoric? The rhetoric is not, to be clear, backed up with any sort of here's what we're going to do. They're saying we're going to wait to see what the legislation looks like. Are you in or are you out?
Corey
53:09
yeah i look i think you're
Corey
53:12
you're asking me as a person you're asking me as a strategist i think as a person i'm a hundred percent as
Zain
53:18
think and i think we know our personal beliefs collectively on this
Corey
53:23
think as a strategist i'm not so sure right um there is um there is the angle that steven's talked about which is is this actually going to make a backing down more likely from alberta i don't i'm not entirely convinced of that this is not a super popular federal government here in alberta but
Corey
53:40
but beyond that i think if
Corey
53:43
if i'm the liberals and i'm looking at the potential upside there i
Corey
53:46
i don't know i mean it is is one of those things where i well i guess i'm in because i think it hurts not at all to say i'm i'm concerned with this whole bundle and then get specific and pick at the parts of the bundle that end up being quite unpopular and it's one of the interesting things here in alberta that we've seen is like there
Corey
54:04
there was was a lot as we talked about last episode that was in there it wasn't even just the parental notification stuff but i think this whole bundle has gotten such a reaction we've seen a lot of people from a lot of walks of life stand up and say this is kind of nonsense uh and we are starting to see the things boil to the top where people say okay that's the one in particular i've got you know challenges with and it might be different for different groups but you know ultimately Ultimately, if
Corey
54:31
if this goes badly for the provincial government, I think we will say with the benefit of hindsight, it's because they went so big at the start, right?
Corey
54:38
right? Now, we talked about it last week as, well, they've really moved the Overton window.
Corey
54:43
I'm not entirely walking back from that view, but, you know, this is the downside, right? The potential downside is there's a lot to pick at. There's a lot of broadside to shoot at.
Zain
54:52
Corey, I'm going to stick with you for our next one. Selina Robinson, that's probably a name that most people do not know, but
Zain
54:58
but have gotten to know over the last, let's say, 72 hours. She's a BC NDP MLA, Cabinet Minister, Finance Minister. Currently. Currently. She is not- As of 9.34,
Zain
55:11
I'm not going to draw people in, but she said some things that were kind of disrespectful, I would say. This is my editorial lens about- I mean, I don't even think
Corey
55:19
think- Kind of. that's kind of yeah
Zain
55:21
yeah it's not much
Corey
55:21
much you know i i get accused
Zain
55:23
accused i accused of not of of not going far enough uh on certain things especially by uh by my friends in in a certain community um yeah she said shitty things about palestine um and
Zain
55:35
and and about gaza um and she's and she has just been sent a a notice as has the media that that certain mosques uh are banning her and any Any NDP, MLA, or candidate from their sacred sort of spaces, which is, by the way, for folks that are, you know, into the political organizing aspect, that has ramifications around organizing. Now, this is a small group of mosques, but they kind of put out a letter, put out a statement after she kind of called, you know, where Israel currently sits as being crappy prior to Israel kind of receiving the land and building a homeland there. Corey, overrated
Zain
56:15
overrated or underrated, the political headache this is for EB? You feel like something like this goes away? You feel like this is, give me your sense of this. For him, a guy who's going to go face the electorate in less than a year, probably, I'm trying to do the math here, October, right? He's going to go face the electorate, overrated or underrated, this particular sort of issue, if I can just frame it as simply as that for him.
Corey
56:40
Yeah, it depends on your starting point. The reality is with BC United and the BC Conservatives kind of chunking everything up, he's got such a lead in seat projections right now that it would be super easy to overstate the potential consequences of this. But he's got a problem. Let's be really clear. He's got a problem. This is not the, he's got a caucus that is not behaving on these particular matters and is, you know, exposing some pretty ignorant views all over the place on matters like this. And so this is obviously one of them. Talking about Palestine as a crappy piece of land with nothing on it. Wow. I mean, that's just, I don't know why anybody thought that was a good idea, ever, under any circumstance. circumstance uh but then you know on on the flip side on like national holocaust memorial day like there was there was not a post right away on that and he had some problem with his social media on that particular matter i
Corey
57:32
i uh it's been a week so i already forget the specifics so i'm not going to go any further than that but um the uh this is one of those issues that is kind of tearing different parties apart i don't think that's fundamentally going to change but if i were him i would be be getting everybody in a room and saying are we all fucking this stupid like really are we this stupid and uh reading the riot act to everybody and telling them to to kind of walk a better line and be more thoughtful about the things that they are doing here uh both in terms of of uh you know jewish canadians jewish british colombians and also uh you know palestinian british colombians muslim british colombians you know to thinking about these issues more broadly still so um Um, yeah, I think he's got to deal with that. He's got to clean that shit up. But I don't think it's existential at this particular moment. It is very embarrassing. But the reality is it's excluding MLAs and candidates.
Corey
58:25
There are a lot of organizers that do not fit in either of those categories that
Corey
58:30
will continue to organize. nice carter
Zain
58:31
carter overrated underrated the headache this is for premier david eby in british columbia um
Carter
58:37
um i think it's probably uh
Carter
58:40
uh underrated i think that he's going to wind up carrying this problem for a while uh i i don't understand why he didn't act immediately
Carter
58:50
immediately not necessarily uh you know just because this this statement was was so callous and so stupid um but just just because of the stupidity are you fucking kidding me you bring this and drop this at my desk um you know you have a cat that does that you you you get rid of the cat you know i mean this is this is political
Carter
59:14
political stupidity and we've talked about it on the show you know this is not an easy subject it says everyone um it's it's fraught it's challenging there are no easy
Carter
59:25
easy answers and And to pretend that, you
Carter
59:30
you know, this isn't stupid politically. Why is
Zain
59:34
is she still in an NDP MLA? I
Carter
59:37
I have no idea. Pictures, I assume. Some sort of pictures of the premier. I have no idea. If he'd moved quickly, he
Carter
59:43
he could have put this thing to bed. I don't understand. Because
Corey
59:46
Because you start worrying any action, people start saying, what about this on the other side? What about that on the other side? You were willing to jump so quickly in this particular matter. You were not willing to jump so quickly last week. It exposes more about you than... You than the MLA or the minister. Yeah,
Carter
1:00:00
this one's pretty egregious. Oh,
Corey
1:00:02
Oh, I agree. It's just so stupid. I did have a cat that called the historical lands of Palestine a crappy piece of land with nothing on it, and I did get rid of it. I
Zain
1:00:11
I own that cat now. And I don't know where they are, but this is why I don't let brown people have pets. Corey, I'll start with you with that blanket statement. Oh,
Zain
1:00:24
my God. Let me start with you, Corey. So name me one thing you're going to be looking for from the launches this week.
Zain
1:00:30
One Corey Hogan metric. Not even metric, qualitative, quantitative. Let me give you like as much latitude on that as you need. It could be a visual, it could be a word, it could be a statement, it could be a frame, anything. One thing you're looking for, Carter, same to you, and we'll close this thing out.
Corey
1:00:46
I'm going to say adaptability or maybe even just more broadly anything that's changed. Because again, these campaigns have been going on for a while. they've been foreshadowing lines is kathleen ganley going to tell us the economy is about people for an hour at a launch which
Corey
1:01:03
is the line is not as good as they think it is no they seem to think it's good enough because they've used it multiple times right um you know still waiting to find a political party that doesn't think the economy is about people by the way if the economy is about people you better be good at the economy right anyways i could go on about why that line's a the clunker but um the uh that's
Corey
1:01:24
that's what i'm going to look for adaptability the ability to kind of shift from where they've been and and see how they've evolved as well and see what that tells us about the campus carter
Zain
1:01:32
carter can i can i narrow it for you a bit around like launch week or launch day or from their launch what do you look because i cory's analysis i like that a lot i'm going to get into that a bit more as as things roll out what are you looking for from from as they launch this week? One Stephen Carter metric, qualitative,
Carter
1:01:53
Honest to God, something different, something unique, something that sets them apart. My great fear is that we're going to see X number of campaigns launch in the next 14 days. And we're going to look at them and say, was there anything interesting about any of those launches? Did those launches in any way speak to us? Did they show a different way of doing it? Or are we going to be be able to say oh yeah that launch reminds me of this launch in in 2001 and that launch reminds me of this launch in 2014 and you
Carter
1:02:24
you know like will we be able to just simply pick apart every one of their launches and say been
Carter
1:02:29
been there done that um
Carter
1:02:30
um i would love and i know i do not expect this i do not but
Carter
1:02:36
but i would love to see just something different we
Zain
1:02:39
we are going to leave it there that's That's a wrap on episode 1283 of The Strategist. My name is Zayn Velji. With me, as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan, and we will see you next