Episode 1281: "Appointment" Viewing

Zain 0:01

This is The Strategist, episode 1281. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, can you hear the excitement in my voice?

Corey 0:10

you hear it? Oh, yeah. Must be Senate

Zain 0:12

Senate appointment day. Oh, it is time. You only get that excited. Listen, there's three times of the year, okay? Well, and one of them happens multiple times, which is today, Senate appointment. I'll get to that. The other two times, Order of Canada. canada and i always i always do the control f stephen carter and i and i don't find it and then i do the control f stephen carter with the v in case you know it's the government of canada they could they could spell it wrong right mistakes happen every single time not even as a member like i'm not talking about an officer but not even as a companion no not even as a member that's just doing local shit okay that's pretty much sweeping at your local y and they don't okay okay

Corey 0:52

jesus pretty much yeah like we'd like to uh yeah apologize to all the members of the order of canada out there all the

Zain 0:58

the members are they even yeah are they even real order of canada what do they do come on um my father-in-law a member of the order of canada i should mention to you uh yeah

Carter 1:13

jesus you've got you've married into quite the family yeah you've

Zain 1:16

got other way other way around i'm

Zain 1:18

i'm oh yeah they're the ones dragging you they're the ones dragging me down how

Zain 1:23

how funny would it be if they came seeking me that'd be a good like i don't know if it'll be a rom-com that'd be pretty interesting indie indie indian thriller i don't know what that would be uh

Zain 1:33

uh thriller it would be a thriller thriller oh my god they'd be plotting in the background uh no cory you are right though it is set an appointment it

Zain 1:43

gotten a new senator today not

Zain 1:45

not not ours that's correct it's not yeah there's two vacancies here uh carter do we want to chat about this because the fact is uh oh cory please isn't

Carter 1:55

isn't like the first rule of uh improvising a show not to block and say no we don't want to talk about this so yes zane we do want to talk about this so much oh

Zain 2:04

my god so great both drinking aluminum foil-less san pellegrinos which means that they

Carter 2:09

they are the common man's

Carter 2:11

this pink drink with With some ice in it. So I've tried to stay away from the microphone. Ice, that's good. Ice

Carter 2:15

Ice is good for

Carter 2:17

Corey gets quite uptight when you put the ice near the microphone. You

Zain 2:19

You know what? Fuck it. I'm actually going to go down the path of talking about Senate appointments. Because why not? Okay. All these people tuning in thinking we're going to talk about the Alberta NDP rules. Well, fuck that. Or maybe the premier talking about... No, no. Who gives a shit? Who gives a shit? Corey,

Corey 2:37

So we're going to talk about the Ontario... I don't know anything about the Ontario Senate appointments. Who gives

Corey 2:41

fuck? Neither do I.

Carter 2:41

I. Our best work is done when we know nothing. Seems like

Zain 2:44

like a person with

Zain 2:45

with a heartbeat. There

Zain 2:46

There is no net.

Zain 2:46

Congratulations to them. Okay? Congratulations on your purgatory. Corey, if one were to want to enter said purgatory with your lifetime quote-unquote appointment to the Senate, here's what's happening. Okay? Here's the word on the street. Well, actually, here's

Corey 3:03

Why did you put quotes around appointment instead of lifetime there out of curiosity? Oh,

Zain 3:08

I put quotes around random stuff just to see if people pick up on it. And Corey, it's usually for the audience, not upon you, but you will see throughout the history of this show, I put quotes around things that do not deserve quotes. So

Corey 3:19

So this is basically the first time I've shown any interest in your question. Well,

Zain 3:23

first time you've actually listened alongside, quote unquote, Stephen Carter. Carter.

Carter 3:30

Jesus, you put a V in there, I can tell. That's a

Zain 3:32

a callback. That is a callback. Pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Because you can do it with a V. That's nice. Because you can do it with a V. Corey, let me, before I get to the word on the street, I find this really interesting. The Senate appointment, we're actually doing this, is an application-based. Now, if I were, if I would have done any planning, I would have found out what's entitled or entailed in that application. I don't give a shit. It's an application. You apply, you get chosen, right? But Corey, what we've heard that's happening here in Alberta, specifically coming out of Justin Trudeau's and the government's sort of appointments bureau, whether that's a division of PMO or elsewhere. Once again, no research has been done. So let's just assume it sits somewhere within government. All right. Loving it. Calls have been made to people. And these are the classic sort of HR calls that we have either done ourselves or experienced. Let me give you the breakdown. The calls are made to relatively qualified people in the broader sort of Alberta community. And they are asked to provide their names for people they think should become senators. And then at the end of that call, 15 minutes, 20 minutes. Carter, sometimes even 30 minutes. They're asked, oh, you wouldn't be interested, by the way, right? And sometimes people say yes, and sometimes they say no. It's like, if you'd be interested, well, please don't send me the names. Let's have another follow-up conversation on that. Those calls, Carter, a version of which we have either participated in or been on the receiving end of, you probably less so than Corey and I, I would imagine, on the receiving side. Yeah, for sure.

Zain 5:01

have been happening. And the ask has has been, well, if you are interested, make sure you apply. And Carter, I'm wondering if there's any room for strategist thinking in that world. That's probably my basic question. If someone tells you, hey, if you're interested in this, apply, and A to B equals C, is there any world where the hats that we put on on this show, where we try to gamify certain things, think through the ups and downs, talk about lobbying individuals that might be on advisory boards, that's a real thing. Talk about maybe even calling up the person who's in charge of appointments. The things that we talk about, the tactics, the strategies we talk about. Carter, my basic question to you, and you could kill this entire segment with a no to this answer, is, is there any room for strategist-level thinking when there's an application-based system?

Carter 5:52

Well, I mean, obviously there is, because now I don't need to put the finishing touches on my application anymore. more uh i was just about done uh i did not get a phone call like the one you're describing and so basically to be clear neither i am

Carter 6:09

why would i even hand in my application um frankly i was looking at this as a nice soft landing uh i'm told they're for life right the appointments um uh

Corey 6:21

uh life in quotes yeah that

Carter 6:23

that could have been fantastic two open vacancies democracies a two chance two out of 4.5 million people oh i had that in the bag no i mean i think there is a strategy to this zane i think that there's strategy from the side of the pmo because

Carter 6:38

because keep in mind these are independent independent senators that's where we need your quotation marks independent senators senators

Carter 6:46

yeah this is independent senators um so

Carter 6:50

so you know with the the independent senators guys i'm gonna reveal

Carter 6:53

don't know how quotes work i

Carter 6:56

we have to do it again i

Zain 6:58

don't have to do it again

Carter 6:59

again yeah i think

Zain 6:59

think i know we start over

Carter 7:01

over like seriously this is rough

Corey 7:02

rough no we're we're committed now we're committed we're all the way hey

Zain 7:06

so cory same question to you is there any room for the type of thinking we provide on this show to someone anyone and i don't have anyone in mind to be absolutely clear uh because i didn't know we were doing this but is there is Is there any value in the type of thinking that we would provide or talk about on the show when there's an application-based system for these appointments, and the Senate being one of them?

Corey 7:31

Yeah, okay. I think the answer is yeah, just as there's kind of strategic counsel you can get when you're looking for a job. You know, you'd hire an executive coach or a headhunter. I mean, I would hire an executive coach. I don't

Carter 7:43

don't need that kind of shit. I don't

Corey 7:44

don't think Stephen... I

Carter 7:46

I don't need that. I

Corey 7:47

I don't need that. Anyways, I'm getting distracted here. So what

Corey 7:51

you do is you want to make sure that you are telling a story that aligns to what they want in a candidate, right? And so you

Corey 7:59

you could give a charitable view that what they want is just very strong, independent candidates that check boxes and show the diversity of Canada. I don't mean checkboxes in a negative sense,

Corey 8:09

criteria have been put out for the independent Senate process about, you know, representation and, you know, excellence and achievement. And so you can make sure that you're crafting your application

Corey 8:21

application the same way and you can make sure people are aware of your application. So at least it gets given due consideration there. That's all for sure possible. And I think if you were actually hell-bent on being a senator, I

Corey 8:33

I mean, maybe even necessary, right? Because these are jobs that, I think they pay what an MP pays, which is about $180,000, if I'm not mistaken. So, you know, it's a real job. I mean, real in quotation marks.

Corey 8:57

know, the way the process works, I understand it. And this is, again, thank you, Zane, for this wonderful advance notice you gave here. There is a committee that has a couple of members for each province and then some general members, right? And I think one of the main members is Melissa Blake, a former mayor of Fort McMurray, if I'm not mistaken. Oh, I remember her, sure. But yeah, they're generally not politicians. They are prominent people from different walks of life, former justices, things of that matter. But here's the rub.

Corey 9:29

They provide for each vacancy five names to the prime minister. They recommend five names. So, you know, they will put them forward. But then Justin Trudeau is going to say, oh, I like that one. Bingo, bango, right? And so there are two really important ways you can influence that process politically, even in this nonpartisan process. One is on the way in, right? So like, how are you making sure that you are in the mix and you are hitting the criteria? And I mean, small p political at this point, right? That would allow you to be considered and put forward by these candidates. And then there is, okay, how do I make the prime minister's office excited about me? And how do I make it so the prime minister is interested in me being a candidate? date and i think the reality of most of these appointment processes is even

Corey 10:16

even um you know within the confines of what i've just described there's an awful lot of soft power in the prime minister's office if the pmo were to say hey here's you know you got names that have come through the process there's a there's a couple of other names we just want to make sure you're aware of her out there we're not saying anything but for sure check them out yeah

Carter 10:33

yeah just be aware just

Corey 10:35

just the reality is comments like that are going to lead to a higher likelihood that person's going to get through especially if they were kind of an edge case right now 50 50 do we put them forward well we know the PMO is a little keen on it we want to do our job well and our job is putting forward candidates that the PMO would find acceptable so yeah why the hell not so I do think there's a place for politics and strategy in this um why

Corey 10:59

why you would want to be a senator I

Corey 11:02

don't know I mean I'm sure it's a fine job but uh but if you uh actually were quite set on it you probably do want to be be thinking about the strategy you know

Zain 11:11

know most people could not see this and i most i mean all people could not see this because this is a auditory medium uh cory did put air quotes around fine job um oh yeah yeah yeah um yeah i don't know what that means as we realize on the show hey carter um

Zain 11:26

um yeah if we both if you both agree that there's room for like strategic thinking on this is it just you or should you bring in other people and how far can you go with other people Like, should you get a lobbying firm, this is a crazy idea, maybe it isn't, that knows and has access to the PMO and say, fuck it, push my application, here's your retainer, go do it. That's one extreme, all the way to, you know, a perhaps more casual way of having other people influence your application. Should you do that? Should you not do that? If someone came to you, like, seriously, being like, Carter, I'm actually thinking of Senate, what would you advise them? And if they said, you know, I actually have some connections that might actually have direct access to the PMO, the chief of staff, the prime minister himself, and I hear he's picking it. What would you say to them, Carter?

Carter 12:10

I'd say be careful. Corey described a scenario where the prime minister's office was pushing a candidate. I think the far more likely scenario is that the prime minister's office says, not that candidate. we'd like a list with five people on it that doesn't include cory hogan um

Carter 12:28

um i mean that's probably not a very good example we'd

Carter 12:31

we'd like a list of five names on it that doesn't include stephen carter that's probably a more apt example so that's that's probably i think more likely to happen so if you get like let's say that you hired navigator um well renowned world-renowned really lobbying firm um comes with some strong strong personality world-renowned

Carter 13:00

capable air quotes um really

Carter 13:04

really well connected air quotes um you

Carter 13:07

you know air quotes

Carter 13:09

quotes you could you could put that forward and

Carter 13:14

and but i don't think that that's going to help I think that here that it was, you know, that you've gone so far as to hire a lobbying firm. It's almost as useless as, you know, running an election and getting elected to be the next senator from Alberta. I think that Erika Baroudis is still waiting for her appointment. I mean, her application was filled out by the people of Alberta. And let's never forget that.

Corey 13:42

OK, we won't. endorsement a lot of people won't have a clue what you're talking about but yeah

Carter 13:49

yeah well i mean zane will ask you a question to follow up and then we'll explain i

Zain 13:53

i will not i will move on i will move on i will move on to ask a very simple question cory which is like going down this path what do you think would risk it like carter started to answer being like my outlandish example of hiring a gr firm to get you into the pmo it was meant to kind of like you know know, draw the line somewhere. Where else would you kind of draw the line around risk? Because you've talked about, you know, some of this might even be necessary. You just start to push yourself, your thoughts on others pushing for you, first and foremost, and then where you kind of think some of the traps are around personal advocacy for one's application, especially when it's like not in your sort of character and you're looking to kind of like serve. It's a lot of people feel that tension, and it's uncomfortable for them in that way.

Corey 14:43

Yeah, and it's an interesting and evolving one, right? This is new, I think. I still consider it new. This came in with Justin Trudeau, this idea of independent senators. And certainly, especially at the start, there was this sense that there was no politics to be involved in it, right? And so, So I think in particular, in those early days, you would likely have created, I think some squeamishness would be putting it in an understated way. If you started lobbying the prime minister's office saying like, oh, no, I'm your person. I'm exactly who you want for that particular role.

Corey 15:17

Or at least it would need to be in the context of this is, I'm that person because I'm nonpartisan. And, you know, I have all of these other accolades that would allow me to be successful in this particular role.

Corey 15:28

But as it's evolving, I don't know if that will always continue to be the case. I'm not even convinced that this particular process survives. And in fact, I'm fairly certain it doesn't. Pierre Polyev becoming the prime minister, right?

Corey 15:40

right? And then the independent Senate is gone. But insofar as this process exists right now,

Corey 15:47

I suspect as they are getting closer to the election that is likely their last, I

Corey 15:54

I suspect they're going to be a little less fussed about a certain amount of partisanship on the side. Maybe I'm entirely wrong about that. But, you know, political mortality is an interesting thing. And you start thinking, oh, my God, since 2016, we've appointed nothing but independents to the Senate. And now it's going to be only conservatives for the next bit. Maybe we should be thinking a little bit about that. All to say, where is the line of propriety, Zane? I don't know, and I suspect it's evolving, and it certainly hasn't existed long enough to be established. But you probably don't want to be going so far as to making it awkward for them. So

Corey 16:30

So if it came out, oh, the prime minister's office heard from political

Corey 16:34

political strategist Stephen Carter that the right political choice was Zayn Velji for the Senate, well, that's probably not going to do them any favors. And that would probably cut against the otherwise rock-solid Zayn Velji candidacy. You

Zain 16:48

You can get your Zayn Velji for Senate posters endorsed by Stephen Carter. So it's pretty much just so you can't see it. It's because it's not in the shop right now, folks. But we've been designing this for months. It's a photo of

Zain 17:00

a small me and a very large Stephen. And it's Zayn Velji for Senate in small font endorsed by Stephen Carter in very large font. It's actually a beautiful poster. I think the kids will love it. We'll also do beer koozies with the same design, right? Yeah, my kids love those beer koozies. They do? Kids are into them. Hey, Carter, here's the most Stephen Carter question to end off this segment.

Zain 17:24

I'm going to ask it to you, okay?

Zain 17:27

Actually, this is not as crazy as my hiring a JR firm. But now that we're down this path, if someone's told you, Carter, hey, listen, I think I have a good chance at the Senate thing.

Zain 17:37

Let's just say it's me.

Zain 17:39

But I've heard my biggest competition. I've heard fucking Corey's applying. And Corey hits all of the DEI criteria, man. man. He's just... He's from the Northeast. He's still from the Northeast.

Zain 17:50

how air quotes work. He like fucking hits it all, man. He knows it all,

Zain 17:55

Is it insane to think that this, either it happens or that you would engage in it happening, that people try to torpedo or sabotage other folks' candidacy in something like this? How much of that is part of this? Because if we're now talking that political strategy or the strategy that we talk about on the show can enter a application system, then

Zain 18:17

it. You can, two ways to build the tallest building, build the tallest building or tear down other people's building, right? And what point do you start thinking about who your competition is, Carter, when it's this application-based, and what would you do about it? So any thoughts in regards to that as we spend minute 18 onward on Senate applications, Carter? Well, I

Carter 18:38

I wouldn't do it. Yes, you would. you guys know i'm a gentle

Carter 18:43

gentle i'm a gentle political activist okay i don't do things like that of

Zain 18:48

what would you advise someone to not do not i

Carter 18:51

i might advise someone you know like if you knew that cory hogan was your primary competition i mean and and and say that we knew that where his his skeletons are um making those skeletons pop out does diminish his chances and if there's no no fingerprints it would probably increase your chances would

Zain 19:09

would you actually go that far in an in something like this not

Carter 19:13

for the senate i mean fuck it's the senate but i mean for a real job maybe like isn't that how we you got into h and k no

Zain 19:21

no let's say you had a client like i'm actually being serious now you had a client who said fuck it yeah i'm actually never gonna run for political office carter like i'm actually not gonna i've thought about it's not for me but this senate thing this actually might be the perfect capstone to my career and i want it and my My competition is Corey and they call fucking you. There's not like they're calling. Yeah, they know what they get with you. So you're telling me that you actually wouldn't do that if or you wouldn't actually give them a path in how to do that tactically if this is what they wanted.

Carter 19:51

No, because there's too much at stake with the prime minister's office. I mean, we're pretending like we're elected or that we're appointing independent senators. senators right like that's the great um pretense of all of this discussion is that we're we're doing something that is uh you know holier and holy and and and true and and all that shit um the truth is that the prime minister's office is probably just as involved uh through this process as any process that they would ever be involved in so you don't want to piss off the prime minister's office not for something like this not for helping someone else get their dream job i mean i'm not going to make the phone call for you zane it's like oh my god yeah i mean he's he's more than the vice son to the vice regal yeah

Zain 20:33

no you wouldn't you wouldn't i'll come back to you carter i'm not getting anywhere with you on this cory what do you think of this the answer is no what do you think of tearing down your competition in a senate application well

Corey 20:43

well i mean such a such a weird universe that we're in that this is the question how i

Zain 20:49

i don't think it's

Corey 20:50

it's a zero so yeah i know i i don't think it is either i think it's weird we're talking about it the context of the fucking senate but like it is a zero-sum situation right there it's not that dissimilar from an election for being an mp in the sense that somebody will win and many people will yes right

Corey 21:06

right yes and so yeah i think potentially

Corey 21:10

potentially contrast can assist you you

Corey 21:13

you do have to consider kind of the norms around it to go back to what we were talking about before and where they're evolving it might be considered quite

Corey 21:19

quite quite improper to be lobbying for the job and in a way that is then undercutting the other other person there and you know that might cause you problems with the prime minister's office but if i want to argue the other point what

Corey 21:32

what does the prime minister want from the senate i think no issues not to be an issue and so if you're raising issues of other people they might be like oh fuck i'm not sure it's like jeez i don't like cory that much god did you hear this rumor that he's friends with stephen carter i don't i don't know let's just move on past that held you back a lot carter

Zain 21:52

said you wouldn't friends

Corey 21:53

friends was in quotes

Zain 21:54

quotes if you if you had to not do this not as in quotes carter um how would you not do it uh how would you get this information out let's say you knew something about cory how in this process getting it out to the public is almost meaningless is it not so how do you get it out to this extremely and i think there is actually a lot of interesting like tactical and strategy questions here How do you influence an extremely narrow band of decision makers where the gen pop sentiment may not even matter, let alone be an influencer on the decision making process here?

Carter 22:27

Assuming I didn't want my fingerprints on it, what I would do is

Carter 22:31

I would have a podcast, right? right? That started in 2015. And on that podcast, I would subtly mention the lunacy

Carter 22:43

lunacy of the whole process, and then maybe just drop a couple names in, Randy Dawson. And when I throw those names out there, Jason Hatcher, you're not going to have those people, you know, like there's certain people that shouldn't be appointed. And if those people were to get appointed, it would be a significant setback to the entire senate what

Carter 23:06

what do you mean what am i doing it's literally you

Zain 23:08

ask the questions inelegant and

Zain 23:12

and also not randy

Carter 23:18

don't appoint them they're appointed they're

Carter 23:22

they're not going to be appointed you

Carter 23:23

you know what if they're not appointed my strategy did he work why

Zain 23:26

why is he here

Corey 23:27

i guess i guess you're right you

Zain 23:30

what when he's right he's right oh man cory

Zain 23:33

cory is there is there any meat on the i mean are either of you gonna give me an answer on this if you actually wanted to do this i

Carter 23:39

i haven't wanted to be in this whole session and it's the whole fucking segment i haven't wanted to be you'll

Zain 23:43

you'll be okay you'll be you'll be fine you'll get to talk about tucker carlson in a second don't worry you'll

Zain 23:48

you'll get to talk about your hero in a moment don't worry oh

Zain 23:53

uh cory is there uh is there is there how

Zain 23:57

how would you do it i guess is my question or is there in it like just from a tactical basis oh

Carter 24:01

oh jay's if i did it is this what it is i just think i did

Zain 24:05

did it there is a interesting lesson here around a narrow band of decision makers needing information without like it looking like you are trying to sabotage one of of your competition? That's actually a really interesting strategy question to me.

Corey 24:18

Yeah, look, I mean, what's interesting is, as well, you would need to know the other person actually applied for the Senate, right? But assuming that you did, and

Corey 24:29

and assuming what you would want to do is you would want to have somebody who was involved in the process on the PMO side, I believe. The PMO side is the only place you would get this going. And you would have somebody who knows them call them up and say hey i uh i hear that you were considering cory hogan for senate well look

Corey 24:46

look i mean i just want you to know you should go in eyes open with this it's that hope you're good let's play golf next time you're in town or something like that but it would need to be like a call from a friend just saying hey just a heads up on that and again if you assume that the prime minister mostly just wants it not to be an issue that might alone be enough to kill it because the one thing i will say is

Corey 25:07

is and i don't mean to be demoralizing to people you will not believe how

Corey 25:12

how superficial the conversations are around appointments in political situations right really fucking superficial like you've got a list of people nobody knows any of the names and somebody says something they heard from a friend of a friend about that person and they're like oh well i guess maybe we don't do that right it's insane how quickly that sounds

Zain 25:31

sounds like that's that's Sounds like the same process for judging the top 40 awards that I've been a part of, Corey. But your point is well taken, right? If you're sometimes not known, it's actually better than to be known, because if you are known, people will have an opinion on you. And at least on the balance of probability, someone's opinion may not necessarily be positive in that sense. Carter, you're going to add something to this?

Carter 25:52

No, I was going to say the same thing as Corey said, but I thought that my podcast idea was much stronger. Yeah,

Zain 25:57

and I feel like the only thing you have done is made it up to our libel insurance. We're going to have to just get better insurance coverage, thanks to our patrons. We should start our own insurance company. I feel like that'd be pretty good.

Carter 26:12

Ryan Jesperson is available. What

Zain 26:16

What? What are you doing? What

Zain 26:17

What are you doing?

Zain 26:18

Don't think so. Lost the plot. Okay, let's move on to our next segment. Thanks for this. Thanks for indulging me with 27 minutes of time. Moving on to our next segment. Is

Carter 26:27

Is this going to be short tonight? Because I'm really quite punchy.

Zain 26:31

Well, I feel like I want to take advantage of that. Let's make this rapid fire, Carter. Fine, fabulous, or fucked. Let's just move it on to that.

Zain 26:38

we are here. I'm not adding a fourth. I'm not adding a fourth to fine, fabulous, or

Carter 26:42

or fucked. Thank you. We appreciate that.

Zain 26:44

I'm not going to do it. Okay, I'm going to keep it simple on this Sunday night because I didn't make you record it a little bit later than you wanted to. Carter, the rules are the same. I'm going to give you a topic. I'm going to give you an issue, and I'm going to give you a frame to view it through. and you are going to tell me whether for that person party uh or whatnot it is fine fabulous or fucked and steven carter let's start at home let's start actually with the premier sitting on stage with danielle smith yeah she sat with herself yeah

Carter 27:13

she did she was there yeah yeah

Zain 27:15

yeah no no here's here's let me start let me start again you don't even you can just just keep it here don't have to edit

Zain 27:19

edit this out cory we're not gonna edit

Carter 27:20

edit or anything um

Zain 27:22

there There was an ideologue right-wing pundit and Tucker Carlson on stage. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. Can you, like, just put that in? That's pretty good. That was like a Jay Leno. Yeah, that's pretty good. Leno has fucking money. Okay, let me tell you that.

Zain 27:38

He's not funny. He has money. Carter, Smith, Carlson on stage together, 20 minutes in Calgary. She did the intro to the show in Edmonton. There was commentary. There was commentary, there was, you know, denouncing of him heading in, there was commentary, there was denouncing of him heading out of the event. Fine, fabulous, or fucked, how did the Premier handle this? And we can then talk about the downstream effects, but let's talk about how she handles this coming out of it from a political damage perspective. Carter, fine, fabulous, or fucked, start us off.

Carter 28:14

i was going to come up with something even better than fine fabulous or fucked but i'm really tired i'm sure you're up with any words you've had like a number of

Zain 28:21

of years to do so i'm

Carter 28:23

i'm gonna say she's fucked because now every time that tucker carlson says something that's racist bigoted uh ill-informed incorrect um she's gonna own it and she's gonna be asked by someone in the media or someone at an open house or someone at a town hall she's going to be asked uh tucker carlson today said that um muslims are terrible and uh women are horrible and you know whatever whatever the fucking crazy thing he's going to say because it's going to be crazy and and how do you feel about that and then she's going to have to reiterate her talking point which is i stand for free speech now granted i i wasn't at all the events that day i was just at that one event so So obviously I chose his free speech over anybody else's free speech. But I think she's relatively fucked on this because I think that that guy, I don't know if you guys know this, but I think he's rather unhinged.

Carter 29:17

I think he's kind of a lunatic. Corey, what do you think? Do you think he's a lunatic?

Corey 29:22

Yeah, I wouldn't even put quotes around that. I think he's clearly kind of circling the bottom. But I, you know, I'm going to say it's fine, you know, and maybe I will even go from her her point of view even a little bit further like it almost shifts into fabulous can i can i give you a bit of a take here sure do it of course this fucking happened alberta you get exactly what you got and if i were a conservative premier of alberta and

Corey 29:50

and i i know a couple of things if i'm a conservative premier of alberta one this is a province with the memory of a goldfish you can do it three months before an election and nobody's going to want to talk about it and they're going going to say, ah, that was old news, right? You can literally get

Corey 30:05

get involved in the administration of justice in a way that calls, you know, condemnation from the ethics commissioner, and people go, well, that was a yesterday problem, right?

Corey 30:15

So that's the public. There's no way they're going to remember this in three years when the next election comes along.

Corey 30:21

But there's another thing I know if I'm a conservative premier in Alberta, and that's that conservative premiers in Alberta tend to have a pretty short shelf life because the right wing of the party comes after them and kills them. So if I'm sitting there as Danielle Smith, why the hell wouldn't I sit and cozy up with the far right? Why wouldn't I? Where's my threat? Is my threat at the ballot box? No, because as long as I start acting like a normal person three months before the election, everyone's going to forget and forgive. However, if I slip up even for a minute with the far right of the party, they're going to start sharpening the knives. So yeah, fucking bring it on. I'll I'll get involved with every crazy right-wing cause. I'll be their champion for as long as I need to be because that's how you survive as a premier in Alberta. You don't survive by being popular. You survive by making sure the far right of the province is on side with you. And that's kind of a downer, I guess, if you're not in the far right of the province. But hey, that's a reality I think we've seen play out time and time and time and time again in the past 10 years here.

Zain 31:23

Carter, give me your take on Corey's analysis here on like, Corey, some version of you got what you asked for, you got what

Corey 31:32

what you got sort of thing, right? Well, I'm not even trying to be shitty to Albertans. I'm just saying, let's be honest,

Corey 31:38

the public doesn't seem to care, right?

Corey 31:41

right? Like everything that Danielle Smith did in the fall that we were like, wow, that's going to be a real problem in the general election.

Corey 31:48

Not a problem in the general election. I know a guy, he did the ads for the NDP.

Corey 31:55

to fundamentally lock those things in because people were just sort of over some of it, right?

Corey 32:01

Meanwhile, we do know that the far right comes for premiers. Jason Kenney didn't lose because he was unpopular with the general public. He lost because he was unpopular with the anti-vax crowd.

Carter 32:13

give me... It's true. That's very true. Well,

Zain 32:16

let's spend a second here on maybe giving the listeners our sort

Zain 32:23

of synopsis or elevator pitch on Danielle Smith as we have seen her now, which is to say, extending on Corey's You Got What You Got, did she do what she did, Carter, sit down with Tucker Carlson, Jordan Peterson, and others, because she is that person? Are you like ready to kind of like be like, yep, like this was beyond the political move of catering to the right. Are you comfortable saying this is actually who she fundamentally is? This is this was politics, sure. But this was also conviction at play.

Carter 32:55

yeah you know there was a time i defended danielle quite a bit because there was this this uh i have a sense of who she is from my past interactions with her and i've and i think that cory and i have both said that we quite liked her she's a she's a very nice person um i

Carter 33:13

i think that she did this because she's scared i think i'm not sure that this is who she is i think that she did this because she is trying to prop up a small group led by apparently a listener of this podcast who is driving

Carter 33:30

driving the right wing in Alberta. And I am so excited because it looks like we're going to come head to head. And

Carter 33:36

And at some point when we get to come head to head... You're talking about David Parker.

Carter 33:39

Parker. I would never say his name.

Carter 33:41

I would never utter the name of Satan on this show.

Carter 33:45

I would never utter the name of Satan.

Corey 33:48

Yeah. For the listeners, he didn't put Satan in quotes. No, he did not. No, that was, no.

Zain 33:52

Would this be a bad time to mention that the entire first segment was in the service of Senate candidate David Parker?

Carter 34:00

Oh, yeah. Okay. It would be a bad time.

Carter 34:03

We should just have David

Zain 34:03

David Parker for Senate. Well,

Carter 34:05

Well, he certainly is independent, says Justin Trudeau.

Carter 34:09

Yeah, I mean, I think that she was afraid, and I think that she's afraid the right wing's going to come together. So

Zain 34:14

think this is just classic fear and lesson learned. Corey, do you believe this is classic fear and lesson learned, or is this revelatory about a person and who they actually are right now? Look,

Corey 34:27

Look, I don't think it's revelatory. You ask, is she that person? Depends on what you mean by that person. She is the person who wants to listen to everybody, especially those who have more right-wing, you know, non-mainstream views on that side. She is the person who wants to be on the big stage. I think I mentioned on this pod, you know, it wasn't so long ago, she was tweeting at Elon Musk saying good things about Alberta, you know, and what was going on with Alberta conservatism back in the day. I mean, she is that person. And I think that she sincerely does think you should be able to have these conversations and have these, you know, challenging debates and discourses. I believe she's that person. And I

Corey 35:05

I also do agree with Stephen, she is under a certain amount of pressure from, I don't even think it's like pressure, pressure. Like, I do think that we tend to overstate sometimes what this is, but I think she knows she can't be turning down invitations like this, right? If somebody says, hey, do you want to be on the stage with Tucker Carlson? And she says, no, well, then that becomes the thing they're pissed off about in right wing land, right? So she just says, yeah, sure, why not? And so I think the combination of those two things where she's like, yeah, look, I've always been a fan of public discourse. And yeah, I've always liked big stages. And yeah, I'm going to get hit in the head if I don't accept this invite or don't agree to do this thing. So of course, she's going to fucking do it. Now, it's manifesting into ways that I think, like,

Corey 35:49

like, look, Tucker Carlson's views are brutal.

Corey 35:52

brutal. And if you're a premier, you don't have to answer for them, you've got a problem. But I just, I think realistically, we've shown that we're not even making Daniel Smith answer for her own views. And I'm not saying that to be flip and I'm not saying that in any kind of political context. I'm just saying it's

Corey 36:08

it's just a reality. And so when you do that risk benefit analysis saying, where's the risk? And you don't even feel like you're debasing yourself because it is so consistent with your professional career before this point. Carter,

Zain 36:24

find fabulous or fucked what you saw from the responses and the denouncements. You heard versions from the, you know, rumored leadership candidates of the Alberta NDP, but you also heard things from like Randy Boissoneau, federal MP saying, you know, you are the company you keep. I'm paraphrasing what he said. What do you kind of think in terms of the denouncements, like as a package, the line around reasoning being like, how dare she share a stage, abhorrent views, like guilt by association? Those were largely the threads. I don't want to, you know, be too reductive. But what did you kind of think? Fine, fabulous or fucked in terms of how the overall stream of denouncing the premier sitting down with Tucker Carlson was?

Carter 37:07

Absolutely fucked. I mean, it has no impact. All you're doing is speaking to people that you want to speak to. You're not speaking to anybody outside of your own primary cohort. It's not like the people who are at the event. I mean, they should be ashamed of themselves. They're not going to be ashamed of themselves. And they're certainly not going to listen to Randy Bossineau's admonishment. I mean, oh, Randy Bossineau thinks that I'm a

Carter 37:34

a bad person. and they're just going to call him a nasty name and move on. Like, this

Carter 37:41

isn't about the people who went. This is about the people who didn't go, the ones that are hearing things. We've lost a generation of people who are at these events. Those people are gone to us. Whether you're going to a Tucker Carlson event or you're going to a Donald Trump rally,

Carter 37:56

you're lost to the discourse right now. We need to be talking to the people who aren't there. And I don't think Bossineau or the leadership candidates had a particularly solid, you know, retort to the people who weren't there. Instead, it was just a scolding of those that were there, a scolding that frankly, you know, didn't mean anything. I would have loved to have gone down and screamed at everybody. That would have been great. I would have felt fantastic. But I wouldn't have done fuck all. And I think that that's where we are right now.

Zain 38:27

let's move it on to our next one let's move it on to the liberal candidate or the liberal mp i should say and maybe soon to be candidate heading into the next election again cory this is mp ken mcdonald of the liberals earlier this past week he suggested that justin trudeau should face a leadership review within the liberal party he then took that back um after assuming the pmo got out to him and saying, please clean that up for us, Ken. But Corey, I don't want to ask the PMO perspective. I want to ask the perspective of this MP from Avalon. Is this fine, fabulous, or fucked for his political future? What do you think? He said it, and this is the same MP, just to remind folks that pre-carve out of the carbon tax for Atlantic Canada, he was the one advocating for it on political shows and such. His future, Corey, he made it, so he looked independent strong but you have to take it back fine fabulous or fucked for him like i'm really curious about him i think the pmo answer is obvious but he's the interesting part to me

Corey 39:33

no i think he's he's fucked because of two things first of all well

Corey 39:38

well maybe i'll i'll put a bit of a proviso on this he's fucked if he wants to be anything other than a backbench mp okay because if there's one thing i now know about him it's that he'll he's willing to stab a leader in the the back and

Corey 39:52

so it doesn't seem to me like the kind of guy i want on the team generally speaking and yeah maybe he'll just be sitting around a bit of a gadfly in the caucus doing those things because he's seen as a bit of a folk hero locally because he managed to get heating oil without a carbon tax and maybe he just feels a little untouchable as a result but he's never going to get an opportunity from me like he's he's now capped out in politics and i don't just mean that that in terms of the Justin Trudeau PMO. What PMO in their right fucking mind would give this guy any authority with which he could then turn around and hit them? It would be a crazy thing to do. You basically know one thing about this guy, and it's that he's not a team player. You

Corey 40:32

You don't put him on the team. So that's it. He's done. It's over for him. And he, you know, he'll get a bunch of headlines. He can have a lot of fun. He can be the guy who helped take take down Justin Trudeau, but he'll never be more than that. And that's the end for him. Maybe he can go run for mayor of St. John's at some point, but it's fucking over for him in liberal politics if anybody has a brain in their head. And certainly I think in any kind of party caucus, that is true. Carter, there are rumors that he might

Zain 40:56

might be going elsewhere for fine different sort of political pastors, so to speak, but fine, fabulous, or fucked as it stands for him in this particular context. And then I have a few follow-ups that I think are more generalized, but but uh um speak to cory's point i

Carter 41:13

he's fucked beyond belief i recall a situation when during the 2012 election where one of our candidates took a position that was kind of contrary to the uh the premier at the time who i was working for and uh that candidate zane i don't

Zain 41:30

don't know how you're talking about she

Carter 41:31

she didn't she did not do well she did not do well we we uh She was on a black list, so black, you couldn't read the black ink on the black list. She was never going to see a cabinet position because of the fact that she could not be trusted not to flip and take the other side. So if you're starting to flip and take the other side, your best bet is to find new political ground. But even then, I think you're done in politics. And this is the problem. right now when you've got your party and your party's not doing well and your leader's polling even below the party that gives you a real problem because you want to do something to save your own skin but the thing you cannot do is just shit on the leader because the leader still gets 90 of the votes 95 of the votes in your riding and you get like fuck all because you're most of us don't know the names of the of our own members of parliament well not most of us i mean mean we're pretty amazing we know every name

Corey 42:30

name we also all live in the same riding so who's

Carter 42:34

who's our mp again

Corey 42:35

again a lot of diversity geographical diversity you know

Carter 42:38

know what's funny about this stepping down big day big day you

Zain 42:42

you know you know what cory uh it's so interesting carter talks about that black list um when he was working for the premier it was uh the candidate this this mla eventual mla was on the blacklist so much uh that she eventually became a cabinet minister that's that poorly the premier that uh carter was supporting was doing so uh just so yeah i'd left

Corey 43:00

i was gone you you that's

Zain 43:02

the correct you were gone yes can

Corey 43:06

actually talk to you about this

Zain 43:06

this this cory brings up something really interesting at least to me yeah cory what if you're if you have no m like we always talk about this as if ambition is maximal right like ambition is parliamentary secretary cabinet and then maybe like who knows like what if your ambition is is just to be humbly a backbencher. And being your own person is kind of part of that. I know you guys gave me the fuck dancer, you know, with the asterisk of if

Zain 43:31

wants anything more. What if he wants nothing more? And in this case, I said, like, there's other things he's looking at, but like, now I'm going to make this more general. What if one who's in this position wants nothing more, except to say, I spoke up when I felt like it was right to do so?

Corey 43:46

You know, I guess I'll have to say fine, then, because you can't argue about his effectiveness on a policy point of view right one of the things that we haven't really stopped talking about is the fact that they've created this carve out now

Corey 43:58

now for atlantic canada and and that's in no small part because of him and and the work of other mps within atlantic canada so that makes him actually quite an effective mp i believe right it again not likely to trust him with anything if i can can avoid it in the future the one thing though i will say is that

Corey 44:19

that is that is a card you can only lay down once or you know a couple of times at most i suppose because ultimately people will start just costing in your opposition to things and and they will act accordingly and so you

Corey 44:34

you know there's something to be said for an mp who chooses its moments his moments her moments to stand up their moments to stand up against these things. But if you do it every time,

Corey 44:46

mean, then people just start operating around you. And it doesn't even have the shock value with the media. It's like, oh, you know, there's

Corey 44:53

there's McDonald again, opposed to what Trudeau did again. You know, I'll say this, considering

Corey 44:59

considering that he basically suggested that the leader needed to step down, you know, needed to face a review, didn't

Corey 45:06

didn't make a lot of news, right? And that's in part because he's now seen as a malcontent and so it's just less as that

Zain 45:12

that guy carter any thoughts on you

Zain 45:14

you know if your ambition is not sky high if you just want to be a backbencher speak in your mind always get you fucked or is it fine sometimes i

Carter 45:23

mean you can speak your mind but you're probably going to be speaking so so infrequently that no one's going to hear you i mean there how many people in the house of commons actually matter right

Carter 45:33

right how many people actually get a voice how many people get to speak i mean if we're being charitable i think we might get the 65 or 70 on a regular basis that are speaking that are getting the pnp bookings or getting on power play i mean they're they're they're they're fighting with you zane to try and get uh onto these shows uh and food

Corey 45:52

food out of your child's mouth zane food

Carter 45:53

food out of your child's mouth and you know sickening

Carter 45:57

yeah they're terrible people but there's only 60 65 of them that are are getting those appearances and this guy is in the is in the other uh 270 i mean it's just it

Carter 46:09

it it's just a really difficult spot for him to find himself and if you say he he you

Carter 46:15

you know he doesn't need that he doesn't have that ambition okay sounds

Carter 46:19

sounds good i mean rob anders was a member of parliament for 100 million years he didn't have to say anything um it doesn't matter like you don't have to be a member of parliament doing

Carter 46:29

doing interesting stuff you can just sit there but that's why that's what we call the the senate carter

Zain 46:36

carter i'm going to move on to our next one the alberta ndp let's move it on to a bit bit closer to home they it's just like it's i love a good callback it's excellent

Corey 46:44

excellent you know it's very good it's

Zain 46:46

it's very good it's it's uh 46 minutes in um carter alberta

Zain 46:50

alberta ndp they have a new set of rules that allow a new leader to be named june 22nd that's what they're looking at It is a June 22nd leadership announcement. They have the race commencing in the next week or so, February 5th. There's a vetting period. I won't bore people with that. But ultimately, February 5th to April 22nd, that is the day that you have to have all your memberships sold for new members to effectively be able to vote. And then there's a bunch of dates in between. But there's kind of a bit of a dead period, I guess, if I'd call it that, between April 22nd and June 22nd as it relates to new membership sales. I'm sure the party will organize events and debates and contests to, you know, do other things, hot dog eating contests and others in between to keep it lively. But Carter, overall on the rules, fine, fabulous, or fucked for the Alberta NDP as they seek to replace Rachel Notley?

Carter 47:49

April 22nd to June 22nd or whatever. yeah

Carter 47:53

me let me ask you a question zane if you have you ever sent a piece of mail in canada

Carter 47:59

long does it take to receive to get to its recipient five

Zain 48:02

five days four days six days something like that i don't know three days

Carter 48:05

days two days uh one day if you're in the same city like the next day right so what

Carter 48:12

what i want to know is why do they think the mail is going to take four weeks going one way and you know like they don't even have to mail back a thank you like just

Carter 48:21

just count the fucking ballots they mail the things out they come back in why why is this taking so long now

Carter 48:29

i'm done with it i'm not saying another word i don't care i don't care how are you going to fill the time between april 22nd and june the 22nd or whatever it is strategist

Carter 48:40

strategist live events we're We're going to do a fucking series of strategist lives every single week. Fuck you all. You're going to have to pay money to be there live in order to hear from the fucking strategists. And that's the way it's going to go because ain't nothing else going to go on. So the strategist fucking live is coming back, Zane. I didn't ask your permission. I didn't ask Corey's permission. I'm just fucking doing it. I don't even care. Book

Zain 49:05

Book the dome. Book it. Do

Carter 49:06

Do it now. Oh, dude, you have no idea. I found a venue. i'm not i don't want to i don't want a soft lunch i found you do you

Zain 49:14

you absolutely do i

Carter 49:16

i found a venue that the fucking patrons are gonna they're gonna they're gonna be so excited there's gonna be little messes in their pants they're so excited about what's gonna happen and at this venue they're gonna die it's gonna be fantastic anyways

Carter 49:30

anyways cory cory can we pause

Zain 49:31

pause the show so you can tell us the venue that's all i care about right now maybe

Carter 49:34

maybe i'm not telling you the venue you fuck off zane fine

Carter 49:37

fine you're not even a signing

Carter 49:40

with a fourth one of the corporation

Zain 49:42

jesus christ he money goes out when stephen carter gets involved either through the lawsuits or through randy

Zain 49:52

cory not the rules should be in the fine fabulous or fuck there were there were debated this weekend they're ratified this weekend they're being rolled out this week with the first sort of stage of that process april 22nd cutoff june 22nd is the reveal of the new leader in this showcase. What do you think? Fine, fabulous, or fucked?

Corey 50:10

I think they're fine. I do think that the period between April 22nd and June 22nd could be a doldrums. I don't think that's unique.

Carter 50:19

Corey, because we're going to do the strategist live.

Corey 50:22

That's true. I forgot. It would otherwise, but we're

Corey 50:25

in there saving it all. But the Ontario Liberal Party had three months between membership

Corey 50:29

membership cutoff and announcement. I think the UCP had similar.

Corey 50:35

Look, I think that's wasted time. I think that's the worst time of all of those leadership contests. You should try to narrow that gap as much as humanly possible. In a perfect world, the gap between voting

Corey 50:45

voting or membership cutoff and voting and voting and announcement to me would be zero in basically all cases, because that's how you generate the most excitement and interest in a membership contest. But, you

Corey 50:56

you know, they're going to do what the herd has done, political parties of all sorts of stripes, which is to give themselves an awful lot of time to deal with things as they come up. So they'll have their membership lists, and then they can kind of go through and they can rotate through and make sure everyone's good with those lists. And they can send out those ballots. And no matter where you live in the country in this provincial contest, you'll be able to get your ballot and you'll be able to muse about it for two weeks. And then you'll be able to send it back no matter where you are in this country on this provincial contest, and everything will be nice and good. And, you know, there is an obligation under the NDP constitution for mail-in ballots being an option. So you do have to have the time for the mail back. yeah

Carter 51:32

yeah but how long again

Carter 51:34

again and i'm not arguing with

Corey 51:36

with you i think it is it is too big but i gotta tell you as a guy who's like run this from the party side before things come up you do want the extra time and so sometimes you do find yourselves talking to the party executive who otherwise are just very hand wavy about it you start almost getting you know like infomercial hands where like you're using a product and you just can't use it even though any normal human human being could do it in a different way you started well you're like well you know the cutoffs there and we couldn't possibly we couldn't possibly get through all of those cash memberships without three weeks notice or whatever right and so you you build these buffers in and

Corey 52:12

and they're not even necessarily for the things you claim the buffers or

Corey 52:15

you just sometimes need the time and

Corey 52:17

and that's you know bullshit

Carter 52:19

oh i'm sorry i missed i misread what we're

Carter 52:21

we're gonna say that's

Carter 52:22

that's how you're gonna say that's

Carter 52:23

bullshit and i said that and i was wrong i'm sorry well

Corey 52:26

well it is kind bullshit steven i i was sort of going to say that because you could probably run it closer to the line but your interest in the party office at that moment is not to be the story and not to be the people who fuck up so you give yourself patty wow

Corey 52:40

is it in the best interest of the party not convinced but it's also not a huge deal and every other party's doing it it's fine cory

Zain 52:47

carter um is it a funeral home that you have booked for the strategist life because i feel

Corey 52:55

feel like that would be a because it's called live and it would be at a funeral home that's really good it's pretty good carter

Corey 53:01

carter what do you think what do you think we

Corey 53:03

we could put live into quotes

Carter 53:12

oh my god that's so good yeah okay are you

Zain 53:16

you done or do you want one more

Carter 53:18

think we're good that was a really good episode that guys really deep really good stuff I was just going to leave it there. Is

Carter 53:26

That was excellent. I really enjoyed it.

Zain 53:28

Fine, fuck it. We're going to move it on to our final rounder over under our lightning round, Stephen Carter. Carter, let's talk about the by-election that has now been announced to replace Aaron O'Toole's vacant seat in Durham, Ontario. There was an interesting development over the weekend where this – it was a very online development, but I found this fascinating. Where Justin Trudeau referred to the conservative candidate in Durham as a twofer, both an insider and an ideologue. The candidate then kind of, you know, took this term of twofer without the context of Trudeau explaining what twofer meant and said, you know, how dare the prime minister call me names and then went on a four minute sort of biographical epic about who he is and how he deserves to be running in this race, etc. et cetera. What do you kind of think of PM's use of language here? Are you in or out of him trying to drive political attacks? And this would potentially be called punching down, so to speak, in some ways, going after an MP. Are you in or out on what the PM had to say here? Of course, what this candidate did was pretty predictable and took a clip out of context. In or out on the PM, though are

Carter 54:37

you suggesting that the the conservative party of canada potentially something out of context and then spun it into some sort of media and fundraising initiative is that what you're suggesting zane it doesn't matter what the prime minister says the conservative party of canada is going to take it out of context and they're going to turn it into a fundraising campaign and some other way of winning votes that's what they're doing um that's the techniques and the the tools that they have and frankly the liberals have tried to do it too and the ndp haven't tried but you know other people i mean the ndp haven't tried for years but anyways the the this whole thing is is a joke it doesn't matter that he said twofer it would have been if he if he'd said this is a candidate that that i don't think has the skill set then

Carter 55:27

then they would have been running a a series of, you know, ads that say the prime minister doesn't think that this type of person has the skill set. I mean, it's a mugs

Carter 55:39

mugs game, because it's not done in good faith, and it's not done, it was going to be done regardless.

Zain 55:49

Corey, I get what Carter's saying, but I'm kind of curious your thoughts on the prime minister's use of language here. Because there could be a world where this candidate, who I know personally, Jamil Javani, could just lean into this, be like, you know, be like twofer, could be like part of his campaign. Like, it could just be like, you know, yeah, call me that, right? And we've seen that in politics, right? Where someone tries to do something from a negative sort of stance or an attack mode, and they're like, you know what? Fuck yeah, that is exactly what I am. Basket of deplorables is a good version of it, right? Where people kind of took the attack and made it their own sort of thing. And I know this is one candidate in a by-election, but there is something really fascinating to me about, like, language jujitsu, but also language that is kind of known, but not really known, and allows this room for leaving out context. Your thoughts on the Prime Minister's language, in or out?

Corey 56:37

Yeah, I think if you didn't watch the show 30 Rock, you wouldn't even understand what the hell the controversy is. But in the show 30 Rock, there was a character, Tuffer, who was so-called because it was described in the first episode he was in. He was a black guy and a harvard guy so he checked two boxes right the

Corey 56:55

the phrase twofer existed before that that's why the joke worked in 30 rock is the great irony here right but you know then it was taken as a racial thing because in 30 rock it was used as a racial thing and so you

Corey 57:08

you know there's a lot to unpack they're very meta you could get into discourse about the evolving nature of language and all of that ultimately i think that um the prime minister there are so many times where you can be like right but you should know better right like i don't think that the prime minister necessarily meant anything i certainly don't think the prime minister meant anything racial but he literally described the two things he was saying he was a twofer on right yeah

Corey 57:33

but why the fuck do it like knowing that the most the most well-known version of this had racial connotations why would you do it like as a prime minister you sometimes have to know it's better not to be witty a lot of the time and and frankly it wasn't even that witty so what the hell that's

Carter 57:48

that's good because Because he really isn't that witty most of the time. Well, let

Zain 57:52

let me extend this conversation to my next question, Carter, under enlightening ground. And let me add some context here. So on the heels of this video, like I said, this is a very deeply online thing, but there's some interesting strategy lessons to be learned here. The newest hire to the PMO, Superior DeVetti, who's been a commentator, radio host, been on PNP for years. She wrote a beautiful Toronto

Zain 58:15

Star article about why she's taking this gig. This was about a couple of weeks ago in the PMO was was sort of named by conservative commentators around, you know, a response. She kind of went back and forth with them and then got into a very heated sort of conversation and debate. If you can call it that lightly, Corey, with Canada Proud, you know, just going back and forth, like, you know, explicit language, all like pretty witty, pretty funny if you're on her side sort of thing. But like, okay, that's like surprising language coming from someone in the PMO. Two ways to look at this, I guess. Number one, like, hey, go ham, attack hard. Who gives a shit now that you're in the PMO? Just be who you are. That's why they hired you. Number two, holy shit, you're in the PMO. You know, calm the fuck down. Corey, I'm going to ask you, are you in or out on her behavior? And I can't give you all of the language in the back and forth right now. So people can look it up because it's still not been deleted. And I'm sure it'll become a bit of a side sort of internet story in that sense.

Zain 59:13

Are you in or out? And you may know her personality, you may not, you know,

Zain 59:17

know, heading into this gig, but now that she's in this gig in the PMO, in or out on her behavior online? line

Corey 59:23

mean i think carter and i it'll be an interesting conversation with carter i'm out i when i was in government i think i tweeted less than a handful of things over the entire time and absolutely nothing was controversial or political it was like oh i broke my favorite mug you know it was like really anodyne shit because i i just generally don't know that you need to become the story at moments like this you know and i'll i'll let carter argue the counterpoint there is an obvious counterpoint which is that you have other personalities that that can get mixed into it. But the bottom line for me is, when you have a job like that, it doesn't work to just say, these are my own opinions in your Twitter bio or anything. And I don't even think she had that. But it comes off as being the prime minister's office. And do we need our PMO? This actually ties pretty well to the last point. Do we need our PMOs to be mean and funny? I don't think that's actually what anybody's looking for. Especially as governments age we want them to be we we want them not to be witty generally speaking we we don't credit them very highly for funny or witty when they get long in the tooth and yes she might be new there but to canadians this is an old pmo this is an old and established pmo and the same things that come off as scrappy and upstart when you are say 2014 and you're trying to get into office

Carter 1:00:41

office in 2015 and

Corey 1:00:41

and you've just gotten into office come off as condescending entitled overpowered when you were in government now for nine years and frankly maybe maybe

Corey 1:00:52

maybe the strategic consideration needed to be given and if you wanted to change the brand in such a way as to say yeah we're the give no fucks brand we're basically donald trump's brand of we're kind of funny and we're kind of dicks if that's the strategy and if that's the plan well

Corey 1:01:06

well i'd like to actually see that i wouldn't like to see that come up through a random PMO staffer. Carter, what

Zain 1:01:12

think? Corey makes a lot of good points around the duration of this PMO, but she's got a personality. She's probably hired with that personality in mind, if not explicitly for it. Your thoughts, are you in or out on Supriya Devedi online with this argument over the course of this weekend?

Carter 1:01:33

Well, I wonder how

Carter 1:01:35

how else you take on Canada Proud, right? How else do you take them on? I mean, the liberals are getting the shit kicked out of them. I think that using a staffer as an account, an attack dog is probably less effective than using an MP as an attack dog. I think that you've got other people with the skill set in your cabinet that might be able to do it. And if you don't have someone in your cabinet, you should probably put someone in who's got the attack dog fighter instinct. i'm not sure that coming from the pmo is necessarily the best uh the best play i played some of that role right we've seen some of those roles being played by jason kenney staffers um i don't think i ever did it like this but i don't think i'm in a position to throw rocks from my glass house uh so i'm gonna say this is fabulous that was another segment well

Corey 1:02:33

told somebody that they couldn't make a woman come no

Carter 1:02:37

no i did or

Corey 1:02:38

that or that oh you did oh

Carter 1:02:41

david on the daily it was back before anybody knew jesus christ come

Zain 1:02:48

we're just gonna let that lack of joke breathe come

Carter 1:02:51

come on are you seriously we're gonna we're gonna

Carter 1:02:55

gonna do that i'm

Zain 1:02:55

i'm putting joke in air quotes that's a wrap on episode So 1280, one of the strategists. My name is Zane Velji with me as always. Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. We'll see you next time.

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