Transcript
Zain
0:01
This is a strategist episode 1253. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, we
Zain
0:10
we have done it. We are here. We have assembled. This
Corey
0:12
This is great. And of course, the big Zain Velji diaries drop happened on Zoom yesterday.
Zain
0:18
yesterday. Oh my God. It was massive. And let me tell you something. Open book. Everyone knows everything about me. Yeah.
Corey
0:26
we want to, frankly. frankly hey
Zain
0:28
hey carter are you you guys are both off x right so you guys aren't going to be paying the monthly fee it now costs how are you off twitter slash x and are sending us all these tweets can you explain this to people you are not off it you are oh no i'm
Corey
0:41
i'm off it i'm for sure off it but you're sending us all these articles all right
Corey
0:45
i have two sources one is just because somebody is off x doesn't mean people don't send them articles like wrapped in that x thing and so
Zain
0:54
so you just forward people so you're like i just forward okay yeah exactly yeah pretty much like all my aunts that's good you're mindlessly forward yeah
Zain
1:02
yeah yeah okay good we call you what that's pretty racist
Carter
1:05
racist those aim because my white dad does
Zain
1:09
um you know no no no um cory's what we call a whatsapp and okay or auntie as we say in my culture uh
Zain
1:16
uh which is you know
Corey
1:17
know what we say aunt in my culture too being from the east coast of canada so uh
Zain
1:20
uh which by the way cory cory you can find a lot more about cory at whatsapp bounty.ca uh which is of course going to be his uh his new handle uh because we definitely we definitely own that now so
Corey
1:30
so that's number one
Corey
1:31
yeah the second way i get exposed to x uh you know the sewer as it is is when
Corey
1:37
when i log into the strategist account to post something for the strategist right like new episode coming or something like that and uh yeah i mean that's basically my exposure at this point i haven't quit like when
Corey
1:49
when i left you literally said you're
Zain
1:50
you're off of it like two minutes ago you gave no no it's different no no
Zain
1:56
oh you guys are you guys are just so i i left
Corey
1:58
left i said like i'm gonna leave it for a few weeks i'll come back that was about a month ago now probably i i reserved the right to go in and see if it still sucks in a bit but i i'm not gonna pay for it so probably this is rip twitter uh
Zain
2:12
uh carter any um any comments from you any insights from you uh carter our resident whatsapp uncle i'll
Carter
2:17
i'll tell you something love and threads uh i log in and look at it no one
Carter
2:23
is nothing is happening no one is there's no there's nothing there no one's posted oh it's silent great that's good yeah it's
Zain
2:30
it's good it's like crickets uh okay we're gonna we're gonna actually uh start this this show off i've heard a lot of comments about people not liking our banter up front uh which means we're gonna continue let's do some more banter then yeah that's good that's heard some pointed criticism and to them i say the shit is free and we're gonna do whatever the fuck we want cory what else you want to talk about what other inane topics yeah now we
Carter
2:50
we got to come up with some stuff uh
Corey
2:53
uh i i don't know i mean who's complaining about the start of our episodes uh now that your father is deceased i just don't understand that
Corey
3:02
was okay wow jesus
Carter
3:03
jesus usually usually it's me who goes too far today it's cory that's fantastic one year
Zain
3:09
anniversary three of my father passing away come on it's not this
Carter
3:13
this day i mean he waited for a while but it's right
Zain
3:16
yeah yeah sorry like i i am prone to those hassan minaj style emotional truths coming out wow this
Carter
3:28
is turning into quite the episode
Carter
3:30
i must tell you yeah
Zain
3:31
yeah this is we're off to a great start better the most in the first five minutes let's move it on to our first segment our first segment why the fuck do they still do this? Guys, this is a segment, of course, we introduced in episode 1109. I want to bring it back. This is an ongoing segment I like to keep into the mix. And I want to stress test political tactics. Why do we still do this?
Zain
3:53
Or Carter, more specifically, why the fuck do we still do this? And today, I want to take you to London, Ontario. You guys remember Justin Trudeau had his caucus retreat. He was a day late. He was late from India. We'll We'll talk about India in a second. He shows up to the caucus retreat. There's probably a lot of questions for him. We don't know necessarily what happened. There's some leaked sources. But after the caucus retreat, Carter, you have Justin Trudeau standing behind the human wall of caucus members, ministers, backbenchers, the entire liberal caucus. They do the human wall. And naturally, the media, knowing that this is a tense moment for the liberals, they're down in the polls, are looking for folks within that human wall that may not necessarily be so happy, might be gazing away, might be rolling their eyes. The focus, the attention is drawn away from Trudeau. Carter, the question I ask you today in this segment of why the fuck do we still do this, why the fuck do we still do the human wall of politicians? I always understand the human wall of people that look like you, so you see yourself in them. But the human wall of politicians, Politicians, should we be ending this practice? Give me the justification. Should we keep it? Listen,
Carter
5:01
Listen, I mean, you've pointed out the justification for it. The justification is that, you know, you see the people that are there. It's an easy visual. It's an easy thing to kind of show the normalcy or the, you know, how wonderful everybody is. Why do we still do it? I don't know. I do not like it. I, you know, I've stopped using the human wall. I'm not even sure if I've ever used it. And I'm sure someone will dig up a package of me. To
Zain
5:27
To be clear, I'm talking about the human wall of politicians behind the politician. And
Carter
5:32
And I'm saying I don't you know, I don't understand why we're doing that. It doesn't make sense to me. It is a dated idea that that creates more tension than it does that it dissipates. Right. Because now people are put into prop mode. and i'm not sure about you guys but i don't find a lot of people like being used as a prop so it creates some some bias some upset because people are angry that they're being used literally to shield people in some cases so i
Carter
6:06
mean i understand why we do it it's a simple photo it's simple it's simple storytelling but i think we've moved beyond simple storytelling and this is is, it's outliving its usefulness. I'll throw it over to Corey to tell me why
Zain
6:22
wrong. Carter, before you throw it over to Corey, which is my job, are you advocating that we kill the human wall of fellow politicians? Absolutely. Is that your pick? Absolutely.
Zain
6:31
are we killing the human wall of politicians with the politician right at the front, at the apex of it? And Justin Trudeau is not the only person committing this crime. We've seen this through and through. This is why I want to bring it up. He's just the most recent example. Sure.
Corey
6:43
Sure. We've seen versions of it here in Alberta with Danielle Smith. When she became leader, it was more like the mob of people playing paintball and hanging out and nodding thoughtfully as she said things in clips released of those caucus meetings when she first got the job of UCP leader. I mean, the reason they do it is simple. It's a way to visually say, I do not stand alone. We are united. There's talk about the unity of the Liberal Party having cracks in it. And so as a result, they try to give this counter visual, they counter program it with everybody there. there now i i generally don't think it's a great idea first of all it
Corey
7:23
it kind of reeks of insincerity especially after you've had the liberals biting each other's backs in the press and we know that there are sources that are there so you're gonna have people with insincere shit-eating grins smiling supporting the leader that you know they were talking like when you're in the media you know that this person was just talking to you about how unhappy they are three
Corey
7:43
three days ago right And so I
Corey
7:45
I think it's show, don't tell, take into stupid places, to dangerous places. I understand why people are looking for that quick visual, that quick hit. But I also think in some ways, it underlines that you can't trust these people with visuals like this, which, of course, given that journalism school is four years, you can assume most journalists are over four years old, and they know you can't trust people. people but um nonetheless uh it's something that just sort of rubs their nose in it like yeah this is all theater you're all just doing your thing it's all bullshit and so i just i don't think that it's a great thing for prime ministers to do it if only for that reason you mentioned the other which is somebody might crack somebody might yawn uh and all of a sudden you've got a visual that was unnecessary you know you're you've got a lot of error points when you've got over 100 people behind you and
Zain
8:38
and the reason i brought it up this time carter is because there was a pre-ordained story that that folks were looking to tell yeah right that they were looking for that fracture they were looking for that dissent they were looking for that annoyance or that lack of enthusiasm and and so you know you can find it if you want in the human wall in some ways carter your take on this and i want to get into solutions because this episode as you guys know with the many times we've done it even at the time we've tried to replace door hangers we've said what do do we what's the solution um right no we've done we've done it from the beginning uh carter i want a solution to this if if if they asked you to stage it what is the solution to the human wall if you couldn't do it if you wanted to show to cory's point solidarity unity i mean
Carter
9:19
mean it would be really interesting to come up with a different idea of what can be done what i would probably consider you know how the media all stand in a kind of a roped penned area right they're all all kind of held in in a space that's held back by stanchions or whatever i would love for an entire cabinet of 32 people to walk over to the journalists and start talking to them each individually right to show that we've got confidence in ourselves and we and we're going to have a good relationship with the media we're going to have a conversation if someone gets a cabinet minister they don't want to talk to they can talk to someone else but but show strength by being strong you
Zain
9:54
you mean like a post you mean like a post-debate spin room situation
Carter
9:58
situation you know where where everybody's just walking up and they're not, because what this is designed to do is to show-
Corey
10:04
- That would be very disorienting as a journalist. 32 people rejecting the
Corey
10:07
the premise at the same time. That's good. All I'm
Carter
10:09
I'm trying to say is that this is bad theater, right?
Carter
10:12
right? It's bad theater. I'm trying to come up with something that might have better storytelling, right? What's the story you're trying to tell? We're all united. We're all confident. We're all in this together. Okay, then let's do that. Let's actually show that in some fashion. You know, it's the same thing that we you know you could do something similar to what we do in conventions where the the cabinet ministers each have a table right like open
Carter
10:35
open it up instead of closing it off would be uh kind of a counter programming move that could and
Carter
10:43
and i'm not saying this is the best idea in the world but it's just i'm trying to come up with something that would do anything that would allow this to be more successful while at the same time uh you know achieving the end goal which is to show unity
Zain
10:58
I appreciate it, Carter. I actually kind of like it. Corey, you have anything?
Corey
11:02
Well, I want to throw on the table, first and foremost, that there is a certain class photo element to these pictures, too, right? Yeah, sure.
Corey
11:09
I mean that both in positive and negative senses. They will often get together and say, oh, let's get a group photo at caucus meetings. You don't always invite the media to them, but every single caucus ever has done a version of this. Let's all stand on the stairs together. Let's get a photo of this. We had this at the retreat, and then that's the thing that goes up in the caucus rooms and whatnot, and they get updated regularly. So I think that you have to do it, right? It doesn't need to be in front of the media, but people would read into it not happening as well. So you've got to at least acknowledge that that's a component of it. Oh,
Zain
11:45
hear you. I hear you. I'm talking specifically
Zain
11:47
specifically for the media, like pressure, like the theater for that, yeah. And
Corey
11:50
And I hear you. And I guess I would just say, you're not entirely eliminating that particular
Corey
11:56
particular moment. If you want to show that kind of solidarity, I talked about this, you
Corey
12:03
you know, they were trying to do show, don't tell the stupid places. I think what would actually be far more powerful, and it would require a PMO who was really on the ball, is the people that you know have been grumbling to the media. You find them and you say, now what I want you to do is I want you to go call that reporter who I know you talked to because your voice rang through in those quotes. And I want you to say, that was a good caucus retreat and I'm feeling a lot better about things. Right? That's a little more powerful. That's going to have a little bit more currency. Now, sadly, it's never going to become a story because it's not the conflict that
Corey
12:34
that people are looking for. There's another
Carter
12:36
another way of doing that, too, Corey. I mean, the other way of doing it is to say, let's go do some media together.
Corey
12:42
Let's go do some media together.
Carter
12:44
And, you know, you don't have to say, I know you talked to this guy, right? But you can say, we're going to do a little media tour if you're a region. I'm coming out in two weeks and we're going to do it together.
Carter
12:54
Here's our talking points. Let's be ready to go.
Corey
12:57
I mean, that almost feels like rewarding disloyalty. So I'm not such a fan of that. You
Carter
13:01
You know what, though?
Carter
13:02
do kind of have to. I mean, there is something to be said for if you're going to keep them in the tent, you almost have to feed the disloyalty. I mean, you can still go to the people who've been loyal, but you don't need to spend as much time with the people who've been loyal. Keep your enemies close, closer, closer, right?
Corey
13:18
your enemies close, closer, closer. That's what people are always
Carter
13:22
always saying. You know what? I bangled it a little bit, but you jumping onto it is what hurt. No,
Zain
13:27
No, no, no. You just created a new t-shirt,
Zain
13:29
which is going to be in your bestseller. I had your back.
Carter
13:31
back. back you so
Zain
13:34
that's pretty good that's actually we could put that at the back i had your back could be yeah it would be nice it's pretty good keep your enemies close closer and then on the back i had your back it's
Zain
13:42
it's past tense i like
Corey
13:43
like the other thing
Corey
13:43
i'd really like in the class photo if they could photoshop in uh jack torrance uh as the bartender in each of them right just a little bit of an easter egg for the cuber case that's
Carter
13:52
that's really good it's
Carter
13:54
it's really funny i really like that one carter
Zain
13:56
carter do you have any clue what he's talking about
Zain
14:00
we're killing the class photo media presser of fellow politicians let's move it on to our next segment our next segment liberal potpourri guys the liberal world order we have to talk about it we spent a lot of time on pierre pauliev let's spend some time on justin trudeau and the liberals they've got a lot of distinct stories strategies issues policies to deal with i want to go through a few of them that they're currently reconciling, trying to work on. We have a new session that has begun ultimately. Corey, let's start with this. They've
Zain
14:31
They've called in the grocery store CEOs. In fact, they called them in earlier today. They
Zain
14:35
They called them into Ottawa. They did a bit of a redux of a Jagmeet Singh. They did it with the power of government. Walk me through in your mind what the strategy was. Was it successful? Was it not? Give me your sense of this particular play. And let me add a bit of context. This is on the heels of Justin Trudeau not being such a big fan of Jagmeet Singh's approach to go after grocery store CEOs just mere months ago. And now they're called with the power of government to have some conversations to quote unquote, stabilize grocery prices. What do you think of this liberal strategy? Let's start here as we begin the potpourri of liberal things that they currently have on their plate.
Corey
15:09
Well, it would appear at least from the outside, like this is part of a broader strategy of clearing the decks and doing that through some strategic surrenders, right? So whether that be be on housing to Pierre Polyev's worldview, where all of a sudden you're introducing policies he's been calling for and policies you have actively rejected in 2017, right? When you officially walked away from a policy commitment to get rid
Zain
15:35
Well, let's also give you some credit for the idea for continued liberal kleptomania. And Carter wants some credit too. Both of you suggested, but mainly Corey, both of you, but mainly Corey suggested that this should be something that the liberals pursue is their ongoing history of kleptomania should continue not just to the left which they've been a big fan of stealing ideas from the ndp but steal pierre's ideas and there have been a few of those over the last week but cory on this particular one i'll let you continue yeah
Corey
16:00
yeah absolutely and i i don't mean this even as a criticism of the liberals but they've made strategic surrenders on issues they were getting killed on they said well the conservatives are eating our lunch on housing so do we really actually have a problem with the conservative approach, maybe we can do that. And I think they've said, we
Corey
16:17
we are not doing particularly well on affordability. And what the NDP are proposing on affordability in terms of this seems very popular as well. So maybe we're going to go do that as well, too. So, you know, I don't read it as part of like a brilliant liberal strategy for the path forward. I see this as closing doors that they're worried angry dogs are going to run through. So by taking on some of these strategies of some of their opponents, they're limiting the vectors of attack. And that's how I read this. And frankly, I don't expect an awful lot out of it except to be able to say, yeah, we did that. We tried to be tough with these CEOs. We brought them to Ottawa. Have you ever been to Ottawa? I mean, we're
Zain
16:54
we're serious. is carter
Zain
16:55
carter it was an idea they did not like the prime minister is on the record saying i don't love this i'm paraphrasing of course mere months later he brings them in right this is the power of his government and then tries to hold their feet to the fire around rising grocery prices walk me through what you think the strategy is and in fact even even more specifically who you think the audience might be for a strategy like this because the criticism they're facing is that it in fact reinforces an ongoing criticism of out of touch and and and and and and behind a step yeah
Carter
17:25
yeah i mean that's way better than not taking any action i would way rather be criticized yeah for being a day late than being a you know not at the table at all you
Carter
17:35
you know and stealing people's ideas um great
Carter
17:39
great go for it you know like who cares no one's keeping tabs of who whose ideas were i mean sure we are but no one in the real world is so just go do what needs to be done um take credit where you get credit and if you don't get credit then keep doing keep stealing more ideas i think that this was really
Carter
18:00
really the only choice that the the liberals had was if you're going to put in you know i
Carter
18:06
i had a survey in the field the other day and we had cost of living cost of housing and number one and two in people's issues um you know i mean you got to deal with them you're the government and you're in your tanking uh and someone should be saying to the print to the pmo we got some low-hanging fruit here yeah uh the low-hanging fruit was accessed once before by the ndp and the conservatives but that doesn't exclude it you don't take good ideas and say well our opponents thought of them therefore they're not good ideas anymore um
Corey
18:40
it just doesn't work
Corey
18:41
could not agree more yeah i mean and the attack of that was my idea and you're a day late is is kind of petty process shit that doesn't tend to resonate with the electorate right you described it as a liberal kleptomania i think that's a fun phrase but the idea is is that the liberals were willing to take ideas and not worry too much about uh
Corey
19:01
you know you know who was the father of the idea who was the mother of the idea and people don't really care if you thought of it first that's that's kind of one of those truisms in politics politics at least i've i've observed over the decades which is that it's it's the kind of thing that only matters to the most inside of insiders so
Zain
19:18
so let's talk about this actually you know and expand the scope on this this idea of of policy theft or idea theft right like ideas are dime a dozen um policies are a dime a dozen it's it's really about how you execute them in certain ways but is there a point carter where people start caring because here's like here's where where i can naturally see that the liberals keep i'm not saying this is singularly what they're doing because this is unfair to them let they keep stealing ideas some from the ndp some from the conservatives rinse repeat over and over and at some point it's like do you what is your purpose of existing liberals like well what is at some point does it does
Zain
19:53
does it pay that does does cost them i guess is my question carter right like this is what cory's saying like you know he's seen historically the
Zain
20:00
the authorship doesn't matter when does it start it doesn't
Zain
20:03
doesn't can i make a yeah
Zain
20:04
yeah Yeah, can I make an argument, Zane,
Corey
20:06
Zane, that the traditional role of the Liberal Party was to be that, to
Corey
20:11
to say, this is an okay idea from the right, this is an okay idea from the left, we're going to do both of them. And one of the arguments that was always made about the value of centrist parties, accept it or don't, I don't really care, and I can certainly see the downside with it too, is that they're less worried about that ideological purity, and they'll just take the things that work for them at that particular moment. And
Carter
20:31
And you don't have to give credit, right?
Carter
20:33
right? Like, it's not like the liberals are running around thanking Tommy Douglas for the universal health care ideas. They brought in universal health, like they get the opportunity to say this was us. Brian Mulroney was stealing from them, too. I mean, like, everybody steals the ideas. Once you put an idea out there, it no longer comes along with an authorship. I mean, how many times have Corey and I put out really good ideas, right? Solid ideas. Rarely.
Carter
21:02
then you just run off to the cbc
Carter
21:04
and you put them up on pnp or whatever they're paying you 500 bucks in appearance for you know and you that's fine with us because once we speak it it becomes everybody's it's everybody's you
Zain
21:17
you get to take it oh it's so good cory before i i uh before i ask you about the content anything to say about my my deceased father before any other comments on that you can't get that out of your system okay i'm
Corey
21:32
i'm sorry carter do you have something to say i
Carter
21:35
miss him i miss him that's
Carter
21:36
that's all i have to say okay thank
Zain
21:38
thank you carter i appreciate it jesus christ
Zain
21:42
are people yeah that's
Zain
21:43
that's an episode uh thank god my
Zain
21:45
my mom doesn't listen uh look
Zain
21:50
there is there's this notion can i ask you a question before you talk about you yeah sure you meander on is this actually a unique position for the liberals? Or do the conservatives have the same opportunity for theft as much as the liberals have? Because you've talked about the historical, a little bit of left, a little bit of right, a little bit of left, a little bit of right. Is this unique to them? Or do you like this sort of ability without fault? Or do you think that the conservatives have the same ability to maybe steal from the new Democrats as they try to to win over some union or labor-like voters?
Corey
22:25
I would argue the conservatives are at their most successful when they are the most inclined to steal, right? When they show the least ideological purity and they're willing to do things like, you know, boutique tax credits that are very popular with people, but don't naturally match kind of this conservative ideology, right? Yeah, sure. And that's almost been like the deal with the devil that parties on the right or parties on the left have to do. You know, you try to get elected, that means getting more people. And that means speaking
Corey
22:53
speaking to more people, which means putting things on the table that are not just about your base. But,
Corey
22:57
you know, I think the liberals are probably a little better positioned to do that just because of where they are on the spectrum, right? Just the situation that they find themselves in is they can steal from the left or the right, and it's not too far in either case. But I wanted to say that there's this notion of like an idea having value. And then there's the notion that the action has the value. And I think in politics, I think in public discourse, I'm talking about electoral politics here, I'm talking about voter discourse.
Corey
23:27
I think the action gets more credit, right? It's this extension of this Steve Jobs idea. Steve Jobs famously said, real artists ship. and the argument was everyone has ideas yeah everyone has ideas there's no art and ideas the idea is not thinking of the mac the the art is in building the mac right and um putting those things into action and executing on them getting it out the door and
Corey
23:50
and people generally credit you for getting it out the door and so when your government you have this massive mover advantage where no matter who came up with it you get to have credit for it because you were the one who did it at the the end of the day. And that's a power I think more governments should use. And I think that is one of the fundamental tensions that any government has with its true believers.
Zain
24:11
I also said by Steve Jobs, you are not my daughter. Carter, I am actually literally looking at the Walter Isingson biography. I'm not going to get into it. Carter, Carter, talk to me about this. This is interesting to me. And I'll get back to Justin Trudeau stealing some Jagmeet Singh ideas, which is what the heart of this question was. is your thought on the conservative ability for theft in terms of idea. And Corey, I don't mean to drive by your idea versus action. I think that's a really interesting framework. What gets the political credit? What gets the voter credit? Carter, your response to that or any reaction to that, but also the same question to you around conservatives and their abilities. I
Carter
24:49
I think that, you know, so we, we, Corey's mentioned before on the podcast that at one At one point, the liberals were the party supporting free trade and the conservatives were the party opposing free trade. And over the course of time, they switched positions. So there's this kind of natural ideological switch that happens, too, where an idea may have existed previously in time. Or in the kind of the attitudes of the time where, you know, gay marriage may have been a problem for conservatives at one point. And then they shift rather dramatically and say, you know what, this is an anchor around our necks. We're no longer going to hold this position. We're going to push it away. So there's different types of ideas stealing. The blatant idea of stealing, I always think kind of like of Mulroney and the Canada Health Act, right? right, like to put into very distinct terms to step on the provincial rights of delivering health care. You know, like there'd been pieces of it before, but Mulroney really jumped in and codified it. And, you
Carter
25:54
that was just good politics. That was taking a giant win for himself, right? So all of this comes back to why do we do politics the way we do politics? And the best politics is done with a degree of leadership right and and a degree of reflection and
Carter
26:11
and both of those things fit into stealing the ideas right i'm reflecting the population right the population wants this to
Zain
26:19
to happen but i
Carter
26:20
i will also lead by taking it to action and
Carter
26:22
and so if you're going to balance off and i always talk to my clients about balancing off leadership and and and reflection Reflection. Because
Carter
26:30
Because if you have both of them, and it doesn't mean an equal measure, but
Carter
26:35
but if you have both of them, then
Carter
26:37
then you are able to be a very solid politician.
Carter
26:40
And stealing the idea is about that leadership and that reflection.
Zain
26:47
That's interesting. I'm going to almost go back to a Jobsian quote, right, where he talks about people, boring from a Henry Ford quote, right? People don't know what they want, right? They would have never asked for the iPhone with a touchscreen like we invented. What the fuck do they know in terms of what they want? He was, in this reductive sense, in the pure leadership category. Who cares about reflecting their needs? If they reflected their needs, They just want more keyboards or a better keyboard on their phone to extend that example. So your thoughts on this, and I will get back to this point on groceries in a second.
Corey
27:21
Yeah, you know, here's
Corey
27:23
here's the thing. I generally think in politics, politicians have their own frameworks. Political insiders have their own frameworks. But if you want to understand how the public reacts to a lot of what goes on in politics, I like to lay it over a workplace environment. And you'll sort of see behavior that people reward or punish a little more clearly there. And in a workplace, pushing off other people's ideas, that's a defensive thing. People don't really like that. You don't like that idea just because it's from another person. Accepting other people's ideas, even people who disagree with you, even people who might be people who oppose you, well, that's magnanimous and strong. And that's the kind of behavior we like to see in leaders. So I think the other thing that we haven't talked about, but I want to put on the table is that a lot of people see a lot of strength and confidence in saying, yeah, you know what? I was wrong. That's actually a pretty good idea. We're going to do that now, right? And it suggests a certain kind of openness and confidence that is
Corey
28:19
is not such a bad look on a government. Now, I don't want to overstate it. It's not like everyone's like, oh, yeah, Justin Trudeau is doing this from a position of strength. Look at his BDE. But it's
Corey
28:31
it's not necessarily a bad thing.
Zain
28:45
Not bad, Carter. Hey, Corey, talk to me about this. I'm going to pause it at the rate for you. Sure. Justin Trudeau bringing out the grocers was for an audience of one. It was for Jagmeet Singh to showcase that this
Zain
28:58
this supply and confidence agreement is still working. He can take that back to the NDP base saying, let's keep this going because the last thing the liberals want is an election.
Zain
29:08
Any merit in that?
Corey
29:09
Interesting. I would say, absent my knowledge of the polls, it's a really strong theory. But the reality is the NDP are not doing particularly well on the polls either. Normally, when the liberals go down in the polls, the NDP go up. That hasn't happened. And we're kind of looking at a conservative government. So I don't think this confidence and supply agreement has ever been more secure than it is right now, because they're
Corey
29:33
they're going to lose all of their authority going forward. But I think it's a fascinating notion, and it's very possible it's part of the theater that both leaders know they need to play in order to maintain the status quo that is better than the alternative for either of them.
Zain
29:47
Carter, what do you think of that theory, that this is for Jagmeet Singh to go back to his base and say, look, this
Zain
29:52
this is paying dividends. Let's keep this thing going.
Carter
29:55
going. It's missing one key element, and that's Jagmeet Singh.
Carter
29:58
yeah you don't get to do that you know if you don't give the credit for it like when you never you never credit credit corey right right so it doesn't feel good just never time it doesn't feel good and they don't want so
Carter
30:09
so they don't want notes they don't want not by not crediting you're you're taking away the world has changed they
Zain
30:14
brown people to say white people ideas i don't know if you haven't kept up with the last five years that's what they're very aware of what they
Corey
30:24
let's pause there go from yeah let's unpack let's unpack that yeah
Zain
30:30
yeah let's unpack how they want uh how they want uh go ahead carter yeah carter why
Corey
30:37
you aware what's going on
Carter
30:37
on what they want how they want zane's level of intelligence instead of my level of intelligence that's all i'm saying okay
Corey
30:45
okay and who's they just Hey,
Zain
30:58
Okay, Carter. We're going to have to bleep that out. Can you not bleep
Zain
31:04
I mean, I'm for sure not going to do that.
Carter
31:06
Have you met Corey? There's no way. work uh
Zain
31:09
carter um let's let's talk about um let's talk about a different liberal strategy or a different thing that has happened this week in this liberal okay we'll park the grocery store stuff for a second katie
Zain
31:23
katie telford has a massive i think that's fair to say massive profile written about her it took me forever
Carter
31:28
forever to get through and it's forever
Zain
31:31
did you read it by the way did you guys both yeah well you said
Carter
31:33
said to us read it and we did so i i actually
Zain
31:37
actually found it interesting this and and i'm not going to get into the same sort of strategy of profiles because we did a show with that about that with with annalise carter where we talked about chief of staff and political and i think that was a good episode we did um but i want to talk about just the takeaways here because we're talking about the liberals right so this is a profile that's many thousands of words if i'm not mistaken at least rivaled
Carter
31:55
rivaled mine right like it right it absolutely rivaled my sprawl uh
Zain
32:01
uh one thing one thing in this case uh katie telfer did not sit down with the author which she took a very different strategy, unlike you. She did not try to override the story with her interview. But in some cases, extremely flattering, glowing words about her. In other cases, saying that her linkage to Justin Trudeau is one of the reasons that there's been so much error ball that the liberals have essentially played. Carter, your initial takeaway, and less so that there was a profile and the strategy behind it, because that was for a different episode, the takeaway from what you got. And you could start with why there was a profile about Katie Telford, what you think that signals, and then what you extracted from it. Because I want to tease out some of the strategy that you see. Well,
Carter
32:45
first of all, I thought it was an excellent profile. And it did reflect the Katie that I know. And I think you guys know I have a tremendous amount of time for Katie Telford. I think she's a very talented political operative. I am in awe of how long she's lasted in the office um and i think that she does for the most part a very good job i also think that she's got weaknesses and those weaknesses are the ones that we've talked about on this podcast about a thousand times especially about and and it was ironic because the list of mistakes that we've been talking about on this podcast is like they listened to the podcast and wrote them down into the into the uh into the global mail article um no one's perfect And this felt to me like a preemptive article that sets
Carter
33:31
sets the tone and the space for the inevitable takedown. Oh, interesting.
Zain
33:39
interesting. You think this is like a part one of two
Carter
33:41
two situation? Oh, yeah, for sure. This is setting up the why'd they lose story. And it will be, you know, you know, Jeremy Broadhurst quotes will be turned around a little bit about the controls and the other things. And, you know, so there will be a, oh, yeah, I mean, if Justin Trudeau had been following, you know, and paying more attention, he would have seen these problems. It was written right there in the Globe and Mail. so
Carter
34:09
so to me this is a setup piece for the inevitable downfall and not because katie's necessarily going to cause it but because as we all are aware governments go up governments go down and
Corey
34:21
and right now smart money's on justin trudeau's government going down um
Carter
34:25
um you know i mean we've got a we've got a comment in our patreon saying we shouldn't talk about such sins um but this
Carter
34:34
this is the truth This is where we are right now. If an election were held today, I cannot imagine, you know,
Carter
34:41
Trudeau hanging on. How
Zain
34:42
How they win. Like, it
Zain
34:43
How they win. Yeah.
Carter
34:45
We'd have to do a whole other strategy episode, Corey. I mean, we'd have to pay for another poll.
Carter
34:51
Where would we get the money? I guess the Patreon. Yeah.
Corey
34:54
That's money otherwise goes to us, though. Yeah, that's
Corey
34:58
that's true. We could probably just make up numbers. You know what we do? We
Zain
35:03
we should try to sell every single one of our domain names for a thousand dollars as an auction okay
Zain
35:10
you have so many what's the patrick brown one people can buy that for a thousand dollars cory yeah
Corey
35:14
yeah disgraced leader patrick brown i believe disgraced
Zain
35:17
disgraced leader brown.ca i mean do you want that i think it's multi-purpose okay
Zain
35:21
okay it could be coming
Zain
35:22
handy it's it's a multi-purpose you can use that anytime it's a thousand dollars okay helps us pay for full cory talk
Zain
35:29
talk to me about But Carter, I am capturing your thread about this could be part one of two. This could be about the down five. But I want Corey's thoughts on the table. And then I want to mold this into a conversation about strategy, maybe even specifically about Katie and what she does. But Corey, your thoughts here on what you saw when you read that profile.
Corey
35:48
Well, yeah. I mean, I'll echo some of Stephen's thoughts. I thought it was an excellent profile. I think a lot of it rings pretty true. I don't know Katie great. I've certainly met
Corey
36:00
met Katie multiple times, but it's definitely
Corey
36:03
definitely one of those things where you read and you're like, oh, well, yeah, that's the discourse. You can absolutely see what the Ottawa discourse is as you're going through it there. there. And for me, what really struck me about it was just the way it expanded upon and gave some texture to this notion that Justin Trudeau and Katie Telfer need each other. They trust each other. They were the ones with their backs against the wall, everybody doubting them as far back as like 2014, 2015. They got through it. They managed to prove everybody wrong, but they might have some some of the same weaknesses and they might have the same gaps and they're both introverts and governments over time tend to get bunker mentality anyhow and because they have perhaps some of the things that would lend them to be bunker mentality even in better times maybe there's some trouble and maybe because they see things so much the same way and they have the same expectations for the world they have some blindness on some of this stuff that you look at and you're like Like, how
Corey
37:07
how did people not talk about this? You know, there was a list of stuff that was – we have talked about it. Things like the We Charity scandal and, you know, the idea of going surfing into Fino on the first National Truth and Reconciliation Day. But I think the list actually missed a lot of very obvious political ones, too. And not that those are not political ones, but those are more like, there was an event, how did we react to it? But I'm talking more like thrust of policy and strategy. Like, let's just use this foreign inquiry as an example. It was obvious to everybody six months ago. As much as I would like to say it was only obvious to us, it was not. Literally every commentator was saying, we're just going to end up here anyways, right? What is this government doing? Why is it doing this in the most painful way possible? And sure enough, six months later, we ended up exactly there. And I have a hard time believing that would happen if there
Corey
38:00
there wasn't actually a little bit more tension in the PMO. They might be like
Corey
38:05
like too simpatico, I think is one of the theses of the article. And it's an interesting thought, and it's something that's going to be sticking with me for a bit.
Zain
38:13
Carter, you know, we've had episodes about political profiles. We've had episodes about chief of staff relationships. We've had these kind of broader conversations. I'm going to try to keep this one narrow, right? Because I think I want to deal with the narrow issue in front of us because I just broadened the scope on the previous question about kleptomania.
Zain
38:30
Should Katie leave? And how does one leave? How does one leave? Like, how does one leave when you have been an architect for so long, right? Like, do you have to go down with the ship? Is it an obligation? litigation like i guess i'm broadening the scope already but i i guess my question for you is is just this uh like i i well it is in the confines of this particular relationship in the confines of this trudeau katie telford relationship as as co-author of the country for the last number of years does she have to stay on or should she leave well
Carter
38:58
well let's go through what i think her decision-making process should be i think her decision-making process should be um what
Carter
39:06
what do we need to do to win the next election like forget it like this isn't about scandal this isn't about anything this is about what do we need to make justin trudeau the next you know keep him as prime minister and ideally increase his seat count um and my
Carter
39:22
my answers would be you know we're gonna we would need a new way
Carter
39:27
way of looking at things we would need a new um um some
Carter
39:31
some sort of a new framework because right now the framework that exists isn't elevating
Carter
39:38
to the next level right there is no uh
Carter
39:41
uh you know the the we talked about this this cabinet shuffle you know being a an attempt to try and right the ship um you
Carter
39:50
you know is a cabinet shuffle really enough to do so like don't you need at some point a new way of thinking of things you know one thing i hadn't really realized now you know you just kind of forget about it is that when jerry butts left um they didn't replace him right
Carter
40:06
you know it was interesting just to read that again because it isn't a one-person job it is a multiple person job and like most prime
Carter
40:15
prime ministers or first ministers politicians their teams get smaller over time not bigger and this is probably the time when they need a bigger team. And so if I were Katie Telford, what I'd be saying is, first of all, what do we need to win? And if we
Carter
40:32
we need something different to win, then how do I ensure that that happens? It may be her
Carter
40:39
her staying and saying to the prime minister, listen,
Carter
40:42
listen, we're bringing in 14 new people into the PMO and they're going to be the
Carter
40:46
the ones that we listen to you and you and I, you
Carter
40:49
you you know, we're going to remain friends. We're going to remain confidants. We're going to be there together for each other, but
Carter
40:55
but we're going to start listening to the new team because we
Carter
40:58
we are in the shit right now. That
Carter
41:00
That could be one of the things that she comes up with, but she
Carter
41:04
she has to come up with something because right now it's just simply not working.
Zain
41:10
Corey, I like Carter's idea of decision-making tree, but I also, if you have a take on leave or go or stay and how? I'd also like to hear that. So your reaction to what you've heard, but also if you've got a direct answer to my question, I'd be curious to hear it and why.
Corey
41:25
So should Katie leave? Well, yeah, I think the next liberal leader and prime minister should have their own chief of staff.
Corey
41:34
But my more serious answer in the context of if she intends to stick around and if Justin Trudeau intends to stick around is, I don't think she can leave. I don't I think that that would be disastrous for the liberals at this point. It would be so disruptive. She's so clearly part of the fabric, so deeply embedded. It would be like removing an
Corey
41:54
an organ, an essential organ. You just can't do that this close to an election. I think it would take a year for somebody to come even within, you
Corey
42:04
know, 100 yards of what her power and capacity was. And the liberals would just feel that too much. I really think the answer is in finding a new a new butts, right? You've got to find somebody who can do more of the narrative conversation sort of
Corey
42:18
Yeah, well, yeah, or like a 1A IC, right? Like somebody who can be more focused on the strategy and the narrative and the storytelling and the and the overall arc that needs to be adhered to between now and the next election. And then, yeah, when you get to the next election, this is where you can get your numbers obsession again. And you can talk about how you squeeze the victory in the marginal ridings. But the reality is, you know, it's so interesting. So often life comes back to these sports metaphors, but you
Corey
42:48
you only have to play the game of inches when it's a total grind, right? But if you've managed to put some distance on the scoreboard, you've managed to do a good air game, I'm now kind of mixing politics
Corey
43:00
politics and football, then
Corey
43:04
you don't need to worry about that war of inches. And I really think right now they've been trying to win too much by inches and not enough by yards.
Zain
43:14
That's an interesting point. And so you're saying that what's missing here potentially is the air war aspect, is the message. And I mean, the evidence is there that it is missing, right? Like we've talked about the story, whether we want to say it as the me, we, now, Gans, like what are you here for story, or just the simple lack of ads that they have on the air about the story against their principal opponent, let alone the story about themselves and what they're here for, other than to tout their past accomplishments that many criticize them for. But Corey, yes, please.
Corey
43:47
Yeah, let me just jump right off that. So, Pierre Poliev being not defined by the liberals, just defining himself, I think that there needs to be somebody there saying, what's the fucking story? And if he's the villain in our fucking story, what are we doing to set it up so everybody goes, oh, that guy's bad in chapter two, right? Like, what do we need to put on the table there? What are the pieces that overall lead to the climax and the denouement that we want here? And that is clearly, in my opinion, something the liberals have been missing for at least two elections at this point. And so that's something that I think the liberals should be candid with themselves about and say, okay, we got to find that. And you know, interestingly enough, I think based on that reporting and other reporting, it's going to have to be somebody that Justin Trudeau trusts a
Corey
44:34
a ton. It's going to have to be somebody else.
Zain
44:36
And here's the thing. They've lost like Cameron Ahmed. They've lost so many other folks. Right. And Corey, Corey's analysis, I think, is very astute, Carter, because when you look at the last two elections, they lose the popular vote. They actually literally do win on a grind down of vote efficiency. Right. Between Azam and Katie, like talented operatives who like literally push this thing over the top while still losing the popular vote and retaining government in some miraculous fashion. And Corey's right. We've talked about this in the past. This is what's missing. But Carter, let me go to your point directly. If it is, how do you get... And
Zain
45:12
And I'm just committing the sin. I continue to commit the sin of broadening the scope. But Carter, how do you get someone in place when everyone is kind of left? This is nearly a decade. decade there
Zain
45:22
there is no jerry butts 2.0 who's just been waiting put me in coach in year eight i'm ready to go right i just want to i'm just there is no person like that at least that we that we know this is the greatest
Carter
45:33
greatest week so how do you this is the greatest weakness that you know i mean this is the greatest weakness of all governments right when you start to really reduce the number of people that you trust when you do not when you stop expanding the number of people that you're bringing in. Eventually, that means that the organization has an end date. Corporations work against this all the time. They're always trying to find new people to bring in because, you know, two people decide to leave and go and retire or someone goes to a competitor and suddenly the, you know, the C-suite is looking awfully weak. So corporations would do this. In politics, we tend to, you know, everything is so personal. Everything is so, you know, like,
Carter
46:16
it hurts, right? Like there's an actual pain that comes with politics that I don't think exists within the corporate world. I could be proven wrong, but this pain prevents
Carter
46:26
prevents us from trusting sometimes. And what they really need is someone who will come in, who is not beholden to the old ideas, who will come in and say, let's do this. And then they need to listen. And I just don't know that that person exists i'm kind of with you they've pushed them all out not by not by choice not because they wanted to push them out but because that's what happens you push them out and so they're all gone and now um there's a big you know there's a big problem and what are you going to do you
Zain
47:03
you know it's interesting cory right like in 20 i'll let you comment on this but in 2015 everyone
Zain
47:07
everyone and their dog who is a progressive political operative that i know of and i'm exaggerating a bit, but not a lot, would
Zain
47:13
would have gone to go work for the liberals. This was exciting, right? It was a decade of Harperite sort of politics. Real change. We're going to have last election under first pass of the post. I'm not going to breach any confidences, but how many of our friends do we know who are eager to be like, I want to get into this operation somehow, right? To be like, this is exciting. They may or may not have worked on the campaign, but they saw the outcome and they said, holy shit, there's something happening here. And in some ways, it's like an organizational issue, which I know you've kind of compared this to a corporation or an organization where you have a supply-demand issue. You have way more supply of folks that want to get in, so to speak, or fewer supply of seats than you have demand of people who want to get in. And you could really use some of those folks now
Zain
47:57
in year five, six, seven, eight to kind of be part of your team, to mature, to grow in a way when you had to say no to them in 2015. It's a really interesting sort of, if you look at through the longitudinal sort of period of time, it's an interesting human talent problem in terms of how you incubate this talent early, say yes to everyone that comes to you without maybe the trust factor and build that trust within in some ways. I
Zain
48:20
I don't mean to go off on a tangent here, but I just thought I'd kind of present that because there was such a fervor to work for them, to be part of that mix, to be part of that talent pool a number of years ago. Yeah.
Corey
48:31
Yeah. And, you know, I think that the thing is, it's not so much about giving them the job. It's about actually giving them the thing that this profile underlines they don't have, which is the trust, right? The ability to actually make these decisions. And that's why I said what I said, which is this is if there is going to be a new Jerry Butts, and maybe we shouldn't take Jerry Butts himself off the table here. but it's gonna have to be somebody that the prime minister trusts because otherwise listen can you imagine coming in as a 1a ice in command like a one hand command to
Corey
49:04
to that fucking dynamic where those two have worked together and can read each other's minds for the past eight years plus like your your chances of convincing anybody of anything are somewhere between slim and none so you're gonna have to have the trust of the decider and i just don't know that many people that could build that that quickly that confidently in a meaningful way like it's just a difficult thing to imagine i
Zain
49:27
i i agree with you but let me give you the counter argument how about someone who's got nothing to really lose and who stakes their reputation being like you are down and you are out unless you take a swing and i'm here to give you a pathway to take a swing and if that character sounds familiar right like it's it's because we know those folks right like that they come in and they say like this is what you need this is like they need a sense of confidence as much as they need a sense of here's what to what to ultimately do and and take a shot look at what they give up
Carter
49:56
up right so that person now comes in they're coming in on uh the last two years of the uh of the trudeau let's
Zain
50:03
let's just say they start trudeau dynasty two years right it's two
Carter
50:06
two years and and uh a month or so two years almost two years to the day sure Sure. Um, so great. You've got two years to turn around a sinking ship. So you come in and the truth is that, um, if you lose, you are not able to lobby for a, what, a five-year program, a five-year period. You're, you're on the outs. Uh, I mean, you could work as a consultant, I suppose, and still be able to do some of those pieces, but you're, you're in a conflict conflict of interest situation. Um, you're, you're giving up an awful lot. Your reputation's going to be, uh, tied
Carter
50:42
tied up in whether you succeed or fail. Sure. If you win, you're, you're a God, but if you lose, you're going to be the guy who lost the dynasty, right? We, we saw this when we went back in the day with Redford, right? In 2012, I was going to be the guy who lost the dynasty, right? It was me and Susan Elliott and, uh, Robert Hawks and Alison Redford. We were going to lose the dynasty and you know that's a little bit of pressure that's a little bit of pain i mean you don't want to be the person coming in to do that and so you really need to be given the keys to the castle and we don't have the the
Carter
51:18
uh person for hire culture
Carter
51:21
culture here i mean how many people are there like i'm a paid political hack right how many of the us are there
Zain
51:28
there there's just Let me just, let me just turn this back to you. Let me just turn this back to you, Carter. If you, and I give you these hypothetical all the time, that's no longer hypothetical in a sense. Like if you actually got this call tomorrow, Stephen Carter, like, and I, you know, as much as we make fun of you, you're one of the most talented communicators and you have great instincts about this. If you got this call tomorrow, you're one of the handful of people that I would be thinking of. Would
Carter
51:52
Would you do this gig?
Carter
51:53
I feel like I'd be interviewed, being interviewed by, uh, you know, in the West wing, what was was the guy's name you know who came in and the was going to run bartlett's campaign re-election campaign and he asks do i get direct access to the principal bruno
Carter
52:07
and and if you get direct
Zain
52:10
direct access or he wouldn't know because he doesn't
Carter
52:12
doesn't like it he doesn't understand it um
Carter
52:15
um he doesn't like anything helpful
Carter
52:17
you get direct access to the principal then you can at the very least think you know egotistically
Carter
52:22
egotistically and let's be clear it'd be very very strongly an ego play. You could say, I could change their minds. I could take them in the right direction. I know where to go. But realistically, that's just ego, right? Realistically, it's going to be super duper hard to get through the door when you need to get through the door. And so I don't know. I mean, I would have to have a sit down with the with the prime minister in which he said, listen, I know we're in the soup and I need you to get me out of it. and that type of language would appeal to my ego any
Carter
52:58
other language ain't gonna work because it has to be an ego play it's
Zain
53:01
it's the only reason cory's cory's been shaking his head like every 15 seconds yeah you know jump in eyes when the flattery from the flattery of stephen carter to the answer that carter gave what what do you object to the most cory i
Corey
53:13
i mean i object to the notion that deathbed conversions mean anything it wouldn't mean shit to me that justin trudeau said i really need you I think that we'd have to look at past performance. That's
Zain
53:23
That's why you're not going to guess. That's why you're
Zain
53:24
going to guess. Well, we would see
Corey
53:25
see that the group is getting smaller and smaller. And I think a lot of the reality of the situation is this can't be a cold call. This can't be a consultant. This has to be a call from inside the house. It would have to be somebody.
Corey
53:38
There are people inside the house. There's no one in the house. There are people that Justin Trudeau can talk to and trust. And he's going to have to look and say, maybe they're not as senior as I would otherwise like. Like maybe they're not as, you know, as fluent in French as I would otherwise like, or fluent in English. Let's not make it one way or the other. Let's find somebody whose mind works in that storytelling way that I can implicitly trust. I can move forward. I'll tell you something. That
Carter
54:02
That person would be in already. Well,
Corey
54:05
I've got to follow up
Corey
54:07
for both of you on this. Go ahead. Sure. Go
Corey
54:09
They barely beat Shear. They
Corey
54:11
They barely beat O'Toole. There is so much baggage. They are so high on their own supply. fly. Somebody needs to actually craft a bit of a story here, but it doesn't work if the person who's supposed to read it isn't going to read it. And so for me, number one, and in a funny way, this profile really underlined it for me. It needs to be somebody he can work with, he can trust. You've got two introverts running the government right now, and you're trying to elbow up and say, oh, I'm going to be the third. You, my friend, a personality like yours, an outsider's personality, and there's nothing against you oh no you'd be fucking
Corey
54:45
fucking crushed in that environment um
Carter
54:47
um but the point i'm
Corey
54:49
i'm not talking about the specifics you but i'm saying anybody of your cut is going to get
Carter
54:54
doesn't it need to be like you you're making up a person right you're making up an individual that doesn't exist in this system and
Zain
55:00
and i was when i brought this up initially i asked you because you're here but i i should be clear like the whole like the whole sort of composite image was for that very reason so we're not talking about a specific person until we did we do it like
Carter
55:14
jamie watt's gonna get a phone call like like who's who's out there to do this right
Zain
55:19
well okay let me ask you let me ask you a question actually because we're deep in this and i like hurley's
Carter
55:25
come off the bench fucking that would be a disaster i mean he barely does a podcast um
Zain
55:35
would this have to be someone in-house 12 hours a day carter or do you do or this is to both of you like if you were structuring this role or is this a consultancy i already
Corey
55:44
already think the problem is that they're not going to listen to them right and they're not going to be there either someone's i mean that's
Carter
55:52
that's sitting in the in the in the in the liberal uh party office isn't even going to have their fucking phone calls returned let's
Zain
55:59
let's summarize the last 20 minutes for everybody uh cory says this person is is mythical but exists within the infrastructure carter says this person doesn't exist thank you um excellent work guys excellent last question on this could
Zain
56:15
could you go down south to find this person no
Zain
56:18
like this is a crazy notion like this like but in some ways and i actually am thinking of a person right could you say like could you go with like obama's retired architect on something like this master storyteller clearly has a relationship with the democrats could you tap axelrod and be like dude could you do this for me well like talk just walk me through this i'm sure i'm sure there's like hairy issues around yeah 100 here's
Corey
56:38
here's the challenge a what
Corey
56:40
what i like is it's somebody that i think the prime minister might actually take seriously and listen
Corey
56:45
hate everything else about it yeah
Corey
56:47
doesn't know anything about the country like actually that's you could go and to get somebody like that for katie's job if it's about numbers and trains on tracks and making sure things are running but you've got to actually feel what the narratives are in this country and have a sense for them and have some background in it and if you're just coming from outside what are you gonna be
Zain
57:05
be there's a lot of political igloos and
Corey
57:07
and maple syrup are you
Zain
57:08
you i mean there's a lot of people disagree with that i i get the point but i mean i i think it's i mean i
Carter
57:14
drop into markets all the time cory like you
Carter
57:17
you know like you're gonna drop into to a market it's okay you can learn carter
Zain
57:19
carter your take on that your take on that if if they need a storyteller at an expert level who's done this before we don't cory thinks it's a mythical person on the inside that definitely exists but more than likely doesn't you think it's no
Carter
57:32
no one doing could
Zain
57:32
could they go here's
Carter
57:33
here's what i'm doing what would you do i'm calling axelrod and
Carter
57:36
i'm saying i need you to front this for me right because he's the only one who's going to be listened to by the prime minister and i will tell axelrod what to say in the meetings and he will say them and then we'll be okay because
Zain
57:50
you're talking about you in particular
Zain
57:52
that's like a hop the abstract
Corey
57:52
abstract listen that's the only way to do it i have no problems with campaign managers coming from afar we are specifically talking about the storyteller in chief and the storyteller in chief needs to know our stories as a country and that just would not happen if you got somebody from elsewhere i'm
Zain
58:09
i'm gonna leave that segment there we didn't get to the the india story not because Hey, I did all the fucking research on the India story.
Zain
58:15
Well, that's fine. Okay, well, fuck it, then give me your five minutes. It was bad. India shouldn't have done that. Did you research?
Zain
58:22
Corey, anything to add?
Zain
58:24
I don't want to, I don't want to, now I feel like I'm giving it a, like
Corey
58:28
very quick treatment, which I don't want to. Yeah, it's too big to get into in two minutes here. I mean, I think this is significant. I think it's massive for Canada. I think it's massive for India in ways far beyond Canada. like
Corey
58:40
you you have i mean modi i
Corey
58:44
i i mean here we go we can't really get into it like but this is like this
Zain
58:47
this is just do your whatsapp anti version of it and then carter you could do your just like we are your forward your whatsapp forward i
Corey
58:52
i mean let's just say that when we've watched india's governance in the past decade there's been a lot of stuff that's made us raise our eyebrows and say what's happening here you know but like the whole world has dealt with some democratic backsliding so it had to be considered in that context this
Corey
59:07
this is just another brick in that wall but really really problematic and and i think it deserves to be unpacked in more than just a couple of minutes at the end massive for canada's relations with the most populous country in the world and lest
Corey
59:23
lest we forget and i know nobody listening to this does india
Corey
59:27
india i mean the relationships between canada and india very very tight million i mean i think it's what 1.5 million more than that uh canadians of indian descent like that's it's
Corey
59:38
it's really material and so i i think it's worth unpacking on a on a separate show a
Zain
59:43
a couple of shout outs uh katie telfer profile shannon proudfoot that was a great profile i agree completely you guys both both mentioned it and to the organization they've
Zain
59:51
they've they they were advocating for this story for a long time that came out today uh carter you've you've read better or have you uh have you delivered i'm just saying i've
Carter
1:00:01
I mean, it's, you know, we're
Zain
1:00:03
we're going to go to our door over under in our lightning round. Stephen Carter, give me the mantra that Justin Trudeau needs to fundamentally capture in this in this sitting as as as the house is back. What is the mantra that he needs to fundamentally capture
Zain
1:00:21
capture as the house comes back? It's
Carter
1:00:24
It's about it's about Canadians, you idiot.
Carter
1:00:27
You know, it's about reflecting right now. Reflect, reflect, reflect.
Zain
1:00:31
Oh, okay. Reflect, Carter. I like that. It's about Canadians. Reflect. Corey, what's the mantra he needs to capture? He'll stand up, he'll make statements, he'll have their ongoing battles, him and Pierre Polyev. What is a mantra you want him to keep repeating as he has those day-to-day daily tiffs?
Corey
1:00:48
stevens is a good one right it's not about you it's about them it's identifying the things that actually resonate with canadians and it's actually listening to that information too it i get the sense that sometimes
Corey
1:01:00
sometimes justin trudeau looks at issues in front of canadians the way somebody in their 20s dates being like oh i can change her or i can change him right like they're they don't see it my way but i can i can change them and he needs to sort of take canadians as they are where they are and speak to them through those lenses. This is a good first step, I think, his approach to housing and his approach to grocery prices. But it's like step one on a 1,000-step journey. So let's see where he goes from here.
Zain
1:01:29
Corey, same thing. Mantra, Pierre Polyev. This house, what is it?
Corey
1:01:35
I mean, just keep doing what you're doing. He's clearly got the initiative right now, and he should not let go of it. The more he can keep the prime minister reacting to him, the better off he'll be.
Carter
1:01:47
I'm Pierre Polyev and people like me.
Zain
1:01:52
Let me ask you a follow-up question on that to both of you. On a scale of 1 to 10, the political risk for Pierre Polyev of falling too much in love with himself and his own words and his own rhetoric and his own way of being, he clearly is on a high after Quebec City. He seems to really dig what he's up to. But the risk of politicians of falling Falling in love with themselves and their words. Where do you, currently, for Pierre Poliev, where does that risk lie on a 1 to 10 scale, Carter? It's
Carter
1:02:22
It's got to be like at a 9 or 10. I mean, he,
Carter
1:02:25
he, this is the risk that we all face. We all read and write our own press releases, right? We're all fucking amazing. And then, but we, this, the electorate, it's
Carter
1:02:36
it's very unforgiving and it's very temporary. Everything is very temporary. So, if you start getting a little high on your own supply, there is a very good chance you will be knocked down by the electorate in very short order, especially when you're in the middle of the systemic change that Pierre Polyev is in. Like, he's in a really risky place. People are saying, oh, I like this new guy. But if he turns back into the old guy, they're not going to like that.
Zain
1:03:05
Corey, where do you peg that risk right now? I like Carter's phrase, like getting high on his own supply sort of thing, falling in love with himself. What is the political risk to him right now? One being very low, 10 being pretty high, and should be quite cautious.
Corey
1:03:21
up his passport video, which was very good, with his wood fondling video,
Corey
1:03:27
which is all I need to say about that.
Corey
1:03:31
So, you know, what I would say to Pierre Polyev is, You're good. You're really good, but you're not as good as you think you are. So while you might want to trust your instincts, you don't want to surrender to them.
Carter
1:03:41
Oh, that's good. Oh, nice. Very, very nice.
Zain
1:03:45
Danielle Smith is in on hydrogen EVs. Are you in on Danielle Smith being in on hydrogen EVs? Hydrogen EVs. Like, so hydrogen creating electricity.
Zain
1:03:56
so the context of this story is that she believes the future is bright for zero zero emission vehicles on her radio show this past weekend. She said, you know, I could be open to an electric, I'm paraphrasing here, but I would like a, I think our solution is zero emission vehicles is hydrogen. And they're already there. And she would consider getting one herself.
Zain
1:04:15
Are you in on Daniel Smith talking about hydrogen electric vehicles?
Corey
1:04:18
Well, there's like, there's kind of like hydrogen electric combos and there's hydrogen combustion vehicles, just to be clear. So there's like some, some differences there.
Corey
1:04:27
Are you telling her directly? Because I felt like this was... I'm not even sure. i
Carter
1:04:31
i think it's to her i think it was to her yeah she listens that's why she's a listener here's what i
Corey
1:04:35
i would say we
Carter
1:04:35
we got her in the discord it's it's
Zain
1:04:40
we do that'd be wild man um we should call her in for an interview west center had her on yeah
Zain
1:04:46
and i feel like we should do the same for sure and
Zain
1:04:48
and that's who we're gonna start doing interviews with i
Corey
1:04:51
i don't think we yeah that's
Corey
1:04:52
gonna be our first interview here why
Zain
1:04:53
why not i think it could work well okay
Zain
1:04:56
break break through my ad strategy talk about everything we did okay go ahead cory okay
Corey
1:05:03
okay i look i think that the idea that hydrogen vehicles might save us all is an interesting one people have had for a long time but as it stands right now it's an absurdly expensive the infrastructure exists only in a couple of places say what you will about evs and yeah we talk a lot about the charging infrastructure infrastructure across the country. Do you know what the predominant place you charge an EV is? Yeah.
Corey
1:05:26
Your house, using an outlet that you already have, right? Like the infrastructure is in some ways resolved for short trips. But when you talk about hydrogen, you're talking about creating stations with a fairly volatile gas, and they don't exist in a lot of places, and they're not sold in a lot of places. And in many ways, the lift is much, much bigger, I think.
Corey
1:05:46
People accuse people who have evs of magical thinking i think hydrogen has a much longer road to walk and that's not to say i don't see a place for hydrogen i think hydrogen makes a lot of sense for things like trucking right where you've got to be able to get back on the road right away i think hydrogen makes a lot of sense for shipping might even make some sense in airplanes not entirely sure about that but um in
Corey
1:06:08
in terms of vehicles where the average car trip is you know tens of kilometers and you You get to plug it in at the end of the night?
Corey
1:06:15
No, I mean, I'm sorry. EVs have got that, you know, just totally locked up at this point.
Zain
1:06:20
Carter, Corey had much more substance than I thought.
Carter
1:06:21
Well, let me answer it. Let
Carter
1:06:23
answer it a little bit. It was
Zain
1:06:24
was a bit JPT-ish for me, but it's fine. It's fine. Well,
Carter
1:06:28
Well, let me answer it, Zane. Are
Zain
1:06:30
Are we in or out on Danielle's in on hydrogen? I
Carter
1:06:32
I love hydrogen as a potential fuel source, and I think that it would be great for Alberta to have it. But we don't get to wish these things into place or wish them into being. And the truth of the matter is the technology that is the most able to be deployed is electricity. And we have opportunities to do
Carter
1:06:54
do as well in that market as we do in the hydrogen market. So unfortunately, the premier shut that down. So you just this it's the picking of winners and losers that ultimately destroys government. And she's supposed to be a conservative. she's supposed to be someone who does who believes in the free market and the free market is taking us predominantly towards uh electricity i totally agree with cory the the trucking side i don't think that the trucking side is going to be the solutions are going to be electric i mean i love the electric trucks that are coming out they're fantastic but i i think that the range issue is going to be really difficult for long-range trucking um but hydrogen may be a really good solution there carter
Zain
1:07:39
carter final question i'll start with you on this one the liberal caucus retreat they did it was that let's
Zain
1:07:46
let's use a six month timeline was that the bottoming out for the liberals
Carter
1:07:52
well as you know i'm excellent at predictions um yeah
Zain
1:07:55
yeah yeah lay it on us i i
Carter
1:07:58
don't believe so i
Carter
1:07:59
i i think that there's really
Carter
1:08:01
uh they're back in the in the house today uh and i think they're going to suffer a bit more because they still, while they've had a pretty decent week from our point of view, uh, within the general population, I'm not sure they're going to be saying, well, yeah, I think they've really turned it around for us. So I think that the liberals are still going to suffer for a little while.
Zain
1:08:23
Corey, have they bottomed out?
Corey
1:08:25
Yeah. Politics like Lake Superior has no bottom, right? Like there's always another bottom. You can get to 406 meters down if you really try hard enough and they're miles from there.
Corey
1:08:39
have an opportunity to kind of refocus with a session. A session is a great thing for focusing an unruly caucus because you have your enemy three or two sword lengths across from you. You know, you can argue with them, you can fight with them, they become the enemy. me but
Corey
1:08:54
but if nothing has materially changed by the time they break for the winter the grumbling is going to come back again right where it ended up right where it was before and that's not to say they're going to have clear sailing between now and then either so in some ways i
Corey
1:09:08
don't want to sound overly dramatic but it does feel a little bit like this is the this is the last exit do or die session for trudeau which is not to say he'll be ousted after this session but i think you can start writing those political obituaries if he's still down 14 points in the polls after this session.
Corey
1:09:25
I do. I just don't know how you turn that around.
Zain
1:09:29
Who lied to Corey that Lake Superior has no bottom?
Corey
1:09:31
bottom? I don't know. He's got a troubled childhood there. We're
Zain
1:09:34
We're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 1253 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Belger. With me as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan, and we will see you next time.