Transcript
Annalise
0:01
Welcome to The Strategist, episode 1072. I'm your host, Annalise Klingbeil. Sorry, Annalise,
Corey
0:06
Annalise, I'm going to have to interrupt you. Why did Zain lose?
Carter
0:09
Yeah, we couldn't get an answer
Annalise
0:11
out of him. When's he doing the tell-all? When is he doing the tell-all? Zain wouldn't tell us
Corey
0:14
why he lost, so we thought we'd ask him. Yeah, do you know why
Annalise
0:16
why he lost? I don't know, but I want
Annalise
0:17
want him to do a tell-all. Can you tell
Carter
0:19
tell us why Zain's a loser?
Corey
0:22
can't. Can you expand a bit on... Before we went on air, you were talking about Zain being a loser. Yeah, could you expand on that? Not what I was talking
Annalise
0:29
talking about. you guys are such liars ask
Corey
0:32
ask a lot of
Corey
0:33
about how many hosts the show needs no
Annalise
0:35
no zane's great he did lose and he needs to come on and do a tell-all interesting
Corey
0:42
he doesn't seem to compliment sandwich
Annalise
0:44
yeah that's that's a message like a burger right
Annalise
0:47
right you put it in the middle i've
Carter
0:49
i've had all of my mistakes including being friends with cory um you know like you
Carter
0:55
you think he'd have to own up to his mistakes as well and
Corey
0:57
and yet he doesn't yeah the guy shirks shirk's responsibility you guys should turn the
Annalise
1:01
the table on him you two co-hosts and grill him that's what the last episode should have been was it i don't know i don't think so did
Carter
1:09
did you listen you know what do you have the ability to listen
Corey
1:12
i feel like if you listened to the first 10 seconds you would have you would have heard like you
Annalise
1:17
you didn't grill him did you i
Corey
1:19
i mean we didn't try that hard yeah i
Corey
1:20
i guess well we did
Carter
1:22
you lose why'd you lose why'd you lose and that didn't seem to get us anywhere yeah
Corey
1:26
yeah didn't get us anywhere with you either though now that now that steven mentions it yeah
Carter
1:35
be off but our tactics might be we're
Corey
1:37
we're not really like moderator host types i guess remember those
Carter
1:40
those episodes that we've done on our own oh
Corey
1:43
oh they were good those are great we did one recently yeah
Carter
1:46
couldn't get one of our like two hosts together we
Carter
1:52
lots of money to i
Annalise
1:55
did listen to that one the one where it was just the two of you it was cute you know oh
Corey
2:00
oh jesus talk about you
Corey
2:03
damning faint praise yeah holy
Carter
2:05
holy that was cute
Annalise
2:06
cute it's a compliment
Annalise
2:08
guys we have things to talk about there is a lot going on in the city of calgary do you want to get into it or do you want to keep making small talk oh
Carter
2:16
oh cory would like to remind you that this This is a national podcast, so.
Annalise
2:22
Interestingly, Corey's reminding us that, well, he's wearing a very, very local T-shirt there.
Corey
2:27
That's true. That's true. Available at the strategist.ca. Celebrating Che. Yeah.
Annalise
2:33
Which no one actually calls Che for all of the listeners outside of Calgary. Yeah.
Annalise
2:38
Not called Che. Pick it up, Steam. You
Corey
2:39
You know what? They heard on a national podcast that it exists. Pick it up, Steam. No,
Annalise
2:43
No, not called Che. Okay, guys. First segment. We're moving on. It's called Home Sweet Home. Calgary City Council, Corey's favorite topic. Carter's favorite topic, my favorite topic. So Corey, stick with me because I've got it. I know we've got listeners from outside of Calgary. I got to loop them into what's happening and stay tuned those listeners because this isn't just a Calgary issue. It's a national issue. There's politics, there's policy, there's strategy. What were you thinking? I
Corey
3:15
was thinking about how, you know, when somebody tells you about their dream and it's really interesting to them and you're kind of like, yeah,
Corey
3:22
yeah, okay, what is this? Anyways, for no reason, sorry to interrupt. Corey, you
Annalise
3:25
you say housing is not interesting? Hang on a second here. Housing is like a critical issue of our time. Corey,
Carter
3:32
can I ask you a quick question? Sure, bud. Did we or did we not do an entire episode on our local Dairy Queen?
Corey
3:38
Well, that's a Dairy Queen. That's very different. I think you know that. Annalise,
Carter
3:42
Annalise, proceed with your questions. that
Annalise
3:44
that that dairy queen um i
Annalise
3:47
i was so sad when it burned down okay
Annalise
3:49
okay questions so background actually first before i get into my questions carter of which there are many okay great so in calgary housing affordability task force it's made up of experts they started meeting last september they brought forward six recommendations 33 actions in may yesterday tuesday council voted voted on them. So these were like bold, bold actions and recommendations that are different things that Calgary could do to increase the diversity, increase and diversify the supply of housing in Calgary during a critical time during a housing crisis, which is something many cities across this country are dealing with. So there was recommendations to do with zoning, parking minimums, etc. We don't need to get into all of them. Anyways, task force does the work, they come up with these goes to council yesterday it's defeated in an eight to seven vote so eight members of council uh basically said like no we don't want to make any progress on on housing is how that was interpreted i would
Annalise
4:47
say i don't think
Annalise
4:48
that's how they would wow that
Carter
4:49
that was some no
Annalise
4:49
no they would not put it that but they reversed it cory so uh so we'll get into it so in the hours since the vote uh
Annalise
4:56
uh we saw like lots of different groups weighing in um students
Annalise
5:00
students group notable conservative and liberal federal politicians, developers, former politicians, constituents. Overwhelmingly, people blasting council for not making any progress on a critical issue. Fast forward to Wednesday today afternoon, about 24 hours later, council reverses Tuesday's decision.
Annalise
5:19
They do a reconsideration vote. They put forward some revised recommendations. You know, they say like Tuesday was really hard. In
Annalise
5:26
In the end, this alternate proposal was approved. In simple terms um they
Annalise
5:31
they approve what was put forward on Tuesday but like with extra red tape it will all go back to council there will be a public hearing in September and at that time council can now like cherry pick out different recommendations and ditch the
Corey
5:42
the more controversial ones so
Annalise
5:44
so there is some background summary of a busy 24 hours and I want to get into it um I
Annalise
5:52
I guess to start at this This, like, the national stage, we saw Conservative MPs Michelle Rumpel-Garner and Scott Aitchison weighing in today. How much, Carter, let's start with you. How much do you think the fact that this hit the federal stage, how much do you think that shaped this, like, very sudden reversal?
Carter
6:10
Well, I think that, you know, the idea that Conservatives are for low-income housing has been something that Pierre Polyev has really pushed. And he's talked about reducing red tape. He's talked about, you know, getting municipalities into a place where they're making better decisions. All of those things are part of his his talking points. Now, the conservatives want to own affordability as a as a primary issue. And when city
Carter
6:37
city council like this makes a decision that goes against that, it really is reinforcing the stereotype that the that the conservatives have been railing against. It's bureaucratic. It's got gatekeeping. It's got all the words that Pierre Polyev is excited about, and it's now happening here in Calgary. The fact that it is the
Carter
6:56
the bluest of all the blue areas, the most blue city in Canada, really, is
Carter
7:04
is interesting. And I think it allows the Conservatives to jump in and have more impact. If they're doing this and they're jumping in in Vancouver, it's just the standard, you know, blue on red violence. This is blue on blue violence. And I think that it got more attention, number one. And number two, it
Carter
7:24
it really forced the
Carter
7:26
the local politicians to stop and think about their knee jerk reactions in opposing this type of information.
Corey
7:34
Yeah, I think it's important to note that the supporters were all from what we would kind of consider the progressive wing of the Calgary Council. And the opponents were conservatives plus a few people who were a bit surprising in the sense that you would normally expect them to be relatively reliable progressive votes. And so for those outside the city keeping count, yes, there are more progressive councillors in Calgary than conservative councillors, if you're going to do kind of like a rough, easy math on that. And to Stephen's point, one of the things that I think that
Corey
8:07
had a big effect, what you talked about, Michelle Rempelgarner getting in, Scott Etchison, because it was that
Corey
8:12
that conservative on conservative violence. It was conservatives calling conservatives to task and saying, what
Corey
8:18
what are you doing? What in the absolute fuck are you doing on this particular matter? And I think that surprised a lot of the conservative councillors. And I do think Stephen put his finger on the button here. One of the reasons why it was such
Corey
8:33
such a rapid reversal is I feel like a lot of the reason the conservatives on council voted against this is because it had the support of progressives on council. It had that sports team thing. And by all accounts, from the people I'm talking to, it's
Corey
8:48
it's not just the federal MPs who jumped in on this. Phone lines were lit up. Emails were lit up. Calgarians of all stripes were furious. And so I think the other really important element that we need to put on the table here, and God knows I don't want to go too deep into Calgary land here, is the arena deal a month and change ago was passed by council 15 to 0 with no public consultation. And so this is not about the arena, but I think people were like a dry powder keg ready to explode at council. You know, people's tolerance with council already very low. We've talked a bit on this pod about the polling for the arena actually not being very positive. And then when you have conservative councillors oppose the affordability and housing elements that the federal conservatives are even pushing. And one of the reasons they're saying they're doing it is a lack of public consultation. People had had fucking enough. Yeah,
Corey
9:49
just absolute enough. And it caused it caused the kind of shitstorm you sometimes see in politics. And I think almost to the credit of those conservative counselors, they very quickly read the room and said, we screwed up. And they they extracted themselves from a situation of
Corey
10:05
of their own making, but they extracted themselves quickly.
Annalise
10:08
Well, lots of different threads there on that, like, oh, we screwed up. Now we're going to reverse the decision we made yesterday. Does
Annalise
10:15
Does that open the door for people to say, hey, you reversed this one. What about the arena?
Carter
10:19
Yeah, it totally does. I mean, you
Carter
10:23
you can't reconsider one major decision without putting additional decisions on the table. And I
Carter
10:29
know that councillors are kind of already worried about that. They are already thinking in terms of, you
Carter
10:35
you know, what else are we going to have to back away from? And the arena deal stands at the top of that list. You know, there was a tremendously negative reaction to that, to the arena deal, notwithstanding the fact that Danielle Smith still wound up winning her provincial election because of it. But, you
Carter
10:54
when you back, I mean, this is one of the reasons that the double down principle exists and the double down principle isn't just to be, you know, just to get what you want to get or just to be obstinate. it. Um, it's because as soon as you start wavering on one of your ideas and you start wavering on one of the things you're committed to, there are other things that people will start to push you on. What is, Oh, if you're not really committed to this one, well then how committed are you to the next one or the next one or the next one? And so that's one of the, that's one of many really good reasons. Um, generally speaking, not to back away, uh, just because the public is outraged. You know, the public being outraged is just not, in and of itself, enough reason to back away from an issue. You're supposed to be a leader. You're supposed to be able to weather these intermittent storms of hostility because you are doing what's in the best interest of your community. And they may come to see that. This was just so egregious, the way that this And I think that Corey has really nailed it in pointing out that in part of the reason why this was so bad is it was conservatives taking advantage of the opportunity to show, I think, the progressives that they could stop this regardless of whether or not it was good policy. Yeah.
Corey
12:15
Yeah. And, you know, one of the things about these bodies, whether it be a council or a cabinet or a legislature, is their decisions intentionally curate an era of finality. Like, I've done this, ergo it is done. And one of the small little details of this is one of the reasons why it was relatively easy to reconsider this particular motion is it was technically in the same council day, even though the calendar had flipped over because the meeting had recessed. The rules for reconsideration were lower, although they certainly had the votes even with the, you know, the heightened like two thirds majority required to do it. So that was like interesting, but not necessary. But there, you know, that sense of like the gavel down and we've made a decision and that's it and we're moving on.
Corey
13:02
That's not an accident. incident. That's done for the reason Stephen said, because if you train people to think that those decisions are actually just momentary things that can be reversed the next time, you change politics in ways that are not particularly helpful to you as an elected official, right? Because there's supposed to be a certain move-on finality to decision-making in politics, and we go on to the next thing. And I actually think there's a broader challenge in politics where more things are open, more things are up for discussion, even once they're concluded. And we see this in a big sense when, for example, the UCP government comes in in Alberta and undoes all of the NDP things. Used
Corey
13:39
Used to be, we're kind of like, well, those decisions are made, let's make new decisions going forward. But let's not undo everything the last people did. But now people are more willing to undo it.
Corey
13:50
On the flip side, though, I do want to say, the
Corey
13:52
the politicians use use that tactic of like this is final and let's move on but sometimes they they forget or they over train themselves into thinking that it is final and that they have to move on uh and so i think it was smart of them also to say actually we do have this escape valve for this very reason
Corey
14:11
it is at a dangerous point to stevens uh you know to stevens earlier comments in that uh now people are saying well okay we apparently we can do that so let's talk about the arena again
Corey
14:20
but you know let me tell you a personal anecdote when i worked for the government of alberta one one of my early cabinet meetings and and so i'm an official i'm a cabinet level official i sit in the cabinet room as politicians are talking it's the politicians who are doing the talking generally speaking the officials are not supposed to talk unless they're spoken to right
Corey
14:38
and it doesn't matter the issue but something was coming up and
Corey
14:41
and it was like it was an error so i i like i unprompted sort of raised hey there's this challenge here right and um a fellow deputy minister kind of pulled me aside after uh he'd been there for a while and he said hey you know
Corey
14:57
understand why you did that but you got to appreciate nothing in politics is as final as it seems and there's ways to deal with those things outside of the room so it's important to remember like this finality cuts both ways and you got to keep in mind it's not actually as final as it seems but if you treat everything as an open-ended decision well
Corey
15:15
well then chaos follows
Annalise
15:17
I guess branding wise do you make the argument here of like hey we're here to represent our constituents and we heard from our constituents loud and clear and that's why we changed course or kind of that that branding that storytelling around what happened what what would you do Carter well I
Carter
15:33
think that there's a couple of different ways to do that I'm not a real big fan of I heard from our constituents and we've decided to back away because you're again you're You're just inviting to hear from your constituents more frequently. You know, suddenly
Carter
15:48
they are marching on on City Hall demanding that we kill, you know, kill the the arena deal. If you're sitting
Carter
15:56
sitting in council, the last thing you want to see is people marching on council. So I would I would probably stay away from that. What they did say is that they didn't understand the implication, you know, really what they were voting on. I
Carter
16:09
I think that that's possibly the worst possible excuse. You know, oh, I'm sorry. It was a long day and we got confused. Well, what else are you confused about? I mean, this is all you do is you go to meetings and listen, pay attention and vote this. And the other one was that the mayor wouldn't allow them to break it into pieces that wouldn't allow it was
Carter
16:33
was all or nothing.
Carter
16:36
Well, I'll tell you something. I mean, all of those reasons really are quite horrible. I mean, I'm not sure why the mayor is, you know, prohibiting
Carter
16:43
prohibiting things being broken apart. She allowed it today. I'm not sure why, you know, today there's suddenly a deeper understanding. Did no one get briefed? Did no one ask questions? Did, you know, I'm just, you know, like, fuck, guys, you don't just show up and read your materials for the first time when you go into a meeting. if you are you're not serving your constituents particularly well um
Carter
17:06
um this was a task force of people who put a tremendous amount of effort and you know and expertise into this and you just rejected it because you might have been a little bit tired i mean fuck grow up like this is how
Annalise
17:21
how bullshit how how do you how do you brand it like it it happened they did the u-turn they did the reversal how how would you do a better job of explaining it well
Carter
17:31
well i think that when all 14 when 14 of the uh 15 decide to to vote with it and you're literally seeing half
Carter
17:38
half of the people who voted against it change their minds um i i honestly don't know how to to to rebrand it i think that they were so sorry how would you how would you do it okay well
Corey
17:48
well that's steven that's the the answer they should have not all flipped they should have had one person thank you yeah and then it's like hey we
Corey
17:57
we could do it because of this very unique set of circumstances where the meeting was just in recess not literally the way they reversed it you could reverse any decision of council and you're totally right steven like if
Corey
18:09
if people get the sense everything on council is up for grabs again
Corey
18:13
they can they can protest at city hall about literally anything like at least now they They protest about the thing that's in front of council. But if they can protest about the thing that was in front of council four months ago, that's really annoying as a councillor. That's really not very great for the operation of the city either.
Annalise
18:29
Okay, back to the federal piece. And you guys talked about that kind of conservative progressive divide. I think housing has traditionally been more of a left issue. And we're seeing like the CPC go all in on this housing, on this affordability. You guys are strategists. Just how what should the liberals and NDP federally be doing right now when CPC is like in their turf, essentially?
Carter
18:53
Well, I think what they should be doing is actually solving the problem. Almost all the solutions are the same, right? The solutions that Pierre Polyev is talking about and has kind of branded himself around as his right wing solutions are very similar to the quote unquote left wing solutions. I'll give you an example. example um this is one of the examples we used to talk about quite a bit in uh nenshi's
Carter
19:15
nenshi's days um and that is secondary suites right so secondary suites are a big issue just about everywhere and most of it hinges around parking right
Carter
19:25
if you have a secondary suite you might you know the person who has that secondary suite might accidentally park their car in front of my house um well that's not a very good reason not to have a secondary suite um and the way that liberals liberals have traditionally, you know, messaged that is that social housing is a compelling end in and of itself. We need to have affordable housing. Affordable housing means that we should be able to have secondary suites. Not everybody needs to live in a, you know, 2,400 square foot house with a bonus room.
Carter
19:57
That's true, but there's a better way to message it. And that is the right wing way, which is to say, why is the state even involved in these decisions? These should be be market forces that are making these determinations. The state doesn't necessarily have anything to say about it, except whether or not the facility is safe, whether or not the house is safe. And if it's safe, then we should be able to see market solutions to these problems. So if you're the liberals, then what you need to do is figure out what language you're going to do to put around your solutions and actually start solving them. Because that's what people are demanding. The reason that Pierre Polyev has been able to jump on this has been because number one, he's willing to, and number two, he sees that the cost of living issue is driven by housing. If you want to get ahead of the cost of living issue, you have to start solving the housing problems. So just start solving them. The solutions are known and available to everybody. Corey,
Corey
20:57
I mean, you asked what should the NDP or the liberals do? Well, how about pick up your your fucking socks, guys, like come to the table with an actual fucking solution. The thing that drives me mental about this, totally mental, is that Pierre Polyev has at least, he
Corey
21:14
he understands there's a problem and he's proposed an actual solution to the problem, which is allowing the market to create more housing and find that balance between supply and demand. What the liberals have proposed is allowing us to borrow more money in order to buy an even more expensive house that does nothing for that
Corey
21:30
that well that increases demand that does nothing for supply it's a bonkers solution it's not a solution at all it's bullshit it's not even wrapping paper it's stupid as hell and historically there have been left-wing solutions to housing challenges and you know what they are if
Corey
21:46
if you're not going to rely on the market to build more housing i'm just going to throw it out there maybe the government could build more whoa maybe crazy maybe Maybe the government could build more housing, right?
Corey
21:57
Lots of jurisdictions, lots of models. People have talked about Vienna, probably not an appropriate model for Canada because it's got kind of an aging, declining population. I don't know. You could look at the UK. You could look at council housing, how they build a house and then they allow somebody even to buy that house if they've lived there long enough. And then they build another house. And yeah, the United Kingdom doesn't exactly have cheap housing all of the time. But you know what? But at least there's a solution out there that somebody can propose that is actually about the supply of housing instead of whatever the fuck this is that the NDP and the liberals are talking about. I mean, my God, the liberals are literally saying, we're going to find ways where you can borrow more money and have more money available to purchase a house. Never mind that it is so many times multiples of income right now that you would be drowning the rest of your life if you purchased one of these houses in Toronto. The NDP are saying, we're going to give you more money to give to your landlord to pay for rent. What are you doing? What
Corey
22:53
What are you doing? If you don't want to get absolutely steamrolled by this absolute, you can't even call it a sleeper issue anymore. This is a very big issue. And the liberals have nothing. The NDP have nothing. And they pat themselves on the back for their novel neoliberal failed solutions that any economy, anybody who's taken a year of economics could tell you was a bad idea. And here's why. I don't get it one bit. no that
Carter
23:18
that was a really good rant i like fiery cory cory brought a rant today
Carter
23:24
cory means we're doing a good episode oh i like this uh
Annalise
23:27
uh okay what what what about the generational aspect of this and maybe i'm stereotyping here from like my experience back in the day covering city council and being at these public hearings but the the nimby's so to speak the people that are against like having there's four duplexes being built right now on my block the people that are against that that say i want single family I cannot stand the thought of having a duplex or a townhouse or a row house beside me are often older they have white hair they've they have no hair they've lived Stephen
Annalise
23:58
it you Stephen do
Corey
23:58
do you live on her block they've
Annalise
24:00
they've lived in Calgary for some time and and maybe I'm stereotyping here but they're probably people who supported the conservative party um I guess do you want to speak to this generational aspect because these people trying trying to enter the market not being able to afford it are younger but they're often like the kids or grandkids of these older people that are saying nope don't want this on my block so where does where does that generational thing fit in with the strategy of the conservative party and and others carter you're old you have thoughts i
Carter
24:32
i mean it's hilarious to me because what these people actually want is they want the ability to sell their houses at the market rate but they They don't want to have market forces dictate anything else, right? So people who own their houses, my parents bought their house at $32,000 and sold it for $450,000, right? That was kind of the growth that the baby boom and pre-baby boom generations were able to see. You're
Carter
25:00
You're doing fine, kids. You're doing just fine. And if you want to maximize the value of your home, the
Carter
25:06
the way to do that is to, you're going going to be shocked to hear this, Corey. Corey, you're going to be shocked. The
Carter
25:10
The way to do it is to allow market forces to actually work.
Carter
25:14
If you can put a duplex on the same land that a single family home used to live in, then you have multiple ways of increasing the value of that property. If you can't, then that property stays stagnant, relatively stagnant. Now, some of them in really nice communities do just fine, but a lot of them in not so nice communities have their property values reduced to what they could be if we started to see density. And I also would add for people that
Carter
25:41
that these single family home communities were designed for 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 people. And now they have three quarters to one half as many people just because of the aging community, which means less services, less opportunities, less things to have. So,
Carter
25:58
you know, call me crazy, but if you want to actually get the maximum from your home, if you want to be able to have maximum value if you want to have maximum services then the best way to do that is to enable market forces the things that you've believed in all your life especially if you're conservative you allow market forces to dictate the value and suddenly your value is going to be higher yeah
Corey
26:18
yeah you know housing is a really interesting one zoning is a really interesting one i don't want to get off on like a like an absolute tangent on this particular one It's
Corey
26:56
It drives me nuts when the people in West Crescent Heights try to create all of these rules around what a block is supposed to look like. I'm actually not even really joking. There's this sense of the community must look in this way, and it has to have these heritage elements. It must be built in this particular fashion. I'm not building a duplex on my lot. My lot's not big enough for this. But if I want to put up some postmodern monstrosity, who the fuck's decision is that but mine? This is my property, and I should be allowed to do what I want with it. And the idea The idea that the very same people who would really bristle at the government being involved in any other component of their life want to come in and stop them and their neighbors from being able to do what they want to do with their property really baffles me. Like, I don't understand that. But I think maybe this is also an opportunity to find common ground on this particular issue. This is something that progressives can support. This is something conservatives can support. Maybe it's got to be framed in entirely different ways. But there has to be ways that you can put some pretty foundational philosophical underpinnings there for everybody.
Annalise
28:00
Carter, you wanted to rant? Yeah,
Carter
28:02
Yeah, I want to talk about, there's one other thing that we have to talk about, and that's covenants, right? So there's these properties that have been sold with covenants. don't get me started and and the truth of the matter is the people who who want to stand behind these covenants need to understand where they came from right they are racist there is just no other way around it they are racist they well
Corey
28:21
well the notion of they were put in place not each individual most covenants
Carter
28:24
covenants were put in place many covenants were put in place to keep the neighborhoods uh you know free of of undesirables and the undesirables that they are trying to keep free just happened to be black, Jewish, have different types of last names, different religions, different ethnicities. All of these things were a significant part about why covenants came to be at all. And anybody who's using a covenant to defend why their property should be kept the way it is needs to be confronted with the fact that they are behaving as a racist. And that's okay. okay, if you want to be a racist, I'm fine with that. Just say you're being a racist.
Corey
29:06
I mean, I'm not fine with that, but I hear your point.
Carter
29:08
Say you're being a racist, accept the point that you're being a racist. And then we can point at you and say that person over there is a racist, but don't go away hurt when I call you a racist, when you stand behind your covenant. And the last thing I wanted to say is something I wanted to say earlier, and I forgot to, but I'm going to do it right now. I am so fucking tired of city councils and elected representatives rejecting expert advice, especially expert advice that they request. You know, this council, like this housing advisory committee didn't just show up. They wasn't like, you know, 12 people sitting around in a fucking city just trying to figure out what they should do with their weekends. These are people that were appointed by city council to come forward with the best possible recommendations. And eight fuckers decided that their time, their expertise and their efforts weren't worth shit. shit so fuck you terry wong yes i'm talking to you sorry cory i brought up a specific name but it's terry fucking wong that's
Carter
30:04
that's the guy i'm pissed with okay
Annalise
30:08
i like how i complimented cory's ranch and you just had to like 10 up i felt that too it was
Annalise
30:14
like you wanted me to compliment you i didn't feel like i
Carter
30:18
i was getting the attention that i deserve sure yeah
Annalise
30:21
yeah i know um
Annalise
30:23
um okay a few new threads that you put on the table but i just want to go back to something cory said with the framing of of this issue like zoning is not a sexy issue i think we can all agree on that i think we can also agree that zoning is like pretty critical to to solving the housing crisis that is happening across canada so from kind of like a framing a branding a a storytelling point of view.
Annalise
30:46
What is your advice on like this issue of housing? How do you make it into a good story or a winning issue?
Carter
30:57
Admit you've been doing it wrong for 100 years. Begin with the premise that we did it wrong for 100 years. Now, what we were trying to do is keep certain types of uses away from other types of uses. No one wants to be like, Like remember when Ramsey had the chicken processing
Carter
31:11
processing facility and you know, no, no one likes that. No one wants the chicken processing facility outside of their backyard, but that's how we used to build things because it was convenient. We walked everywhere. We, we had industry located next to houses and we decided, you know what, that's probably not a great idea, especially given the fact that a lot of our industry was polluting the neighborhood and killing our children. Not great. We don't want to do that. So we're going to create zoning so that we have certain uses away from other uses. And then we went too far. We thought, you know, what would be great is if we could actually zone everything so that we have residences in one place and commercial in another place. And what we found out is that mixed use and density actually is the best way to possibly zone things because it makes it better for business owners. It makes it better for residents. It makes it better for all kinds of people. And if you think that a 15-minute community is in some fashion going to impede your ability to to travel you're a nutcase you're a crazy person so you know i i just think that you know we we have the opportunity to to say that we were wrong and and one thing that politicians don't do enough of is say they were wrong and they did the wrong thing for a long time and now they have to fix it just say you were wrong okay
Annalise
32:22
okay not super sure about that strategy especially the bringing up 15 minute cities cory your your framing branding kind
Annalise
32:29
of a segue it
Carter
32:30
it was the next it's just i wanted to add like
Annalise
32:32
like how i mean you could maybe because it was a little long like how how would you along
Annalise
32:39
how would you brand this how would you frame it hurtful you're good at this stuff yeah
Corey
32:43
yeah well not to at the risk of repeating what i was saying earlier i think it's about choice it's yes we uh we are still going to zone industry in certain areas but we're not going to tell you what kind of house you're going to build on your property, that's going too far. That's getting into your business in a way that the city just shouldn't get into your business. And we're not going to tell you you must own a car and you must therefore have a garage. We're not going to get into your business in that way. And if you don't want that, that's fine. And we fully accept that that's your right as a citizen of Calgary, right? The thing about Calgary, the thing about Alberta is you get choices. You get to live the life that you want to live and the government stays out of your your way in these particular fashions. And I think that that's really, you know, that's fruitful ground, both for the conservatives, but also,
Corey
33:27
also, you know, when you think about the more progressive people who are thinking about what they want, you know, those 15-minute cities that Stephen Carter threw on the table for no good reason except to antagonize people.
Carter
33:39
people. Yeah, I did. That's true. That's what I did. Yeah, he did.
Corey
33:43
Those things didn't need to have to be built, you know, from above. Those things organically occurred in cities all throughout the world because they made sense, because that's how people wanted to live their lives. And if people ultimately decide that's how they want to live their lives again, and you allow them to do that through the zoning and whatnot, then God love it, right? That's just fantastic. So for me, because I don't believe that the zoning challenges and complexities are, you
Corey
34:10
you know, they're not unique to one side. I think that the NIMBYs on the left are are just as bad or perhaps even worse in many cases as the NIMBYs on the right. You've just got to reframe this entire debate about something that's a little bit different, right? You know, this idea of like master planning is how you're going to get what you want is just probably not true. There are so many failed examples of that. Here in Calgary, we have Eau Claire Market. How's that for master planning to build a big residential area?
Corey
34:37
The few Calgarians who listen to this show will be aware of what that is. um on the right it's
Carter
34:42
it's still a fairly significant number i mean not
Corey
34:49
mean it's not zero there's
Corey
34:50
there's a there's a few but on
Corey
34:53
on the right it's
Corey
34:55
it's not so much about the community it's about like it's it's even smaller than that it's your land it's your property and if a property owner wants to build something that is not impeding your enjoyment of it and i don't mean like you don't like to look at it i mean like you can't put a fucking tower next to you know something that's going to loom a shadow over a park in an entire neighborhood then
Corey
35:14
then then what's the problem like just have natural step downs if the story at the house next to you is three stories and your house is two stories and the one next to you is one story literally nobody is affected by that so just let it happen you know i would like to see more contextual zoning in the sense of you can only get so much higher than your neighbors rather than getting too prescriptive
Carter
35:34
yeah plus we could get rid of some of those coral buildings
Carter
35:37
buildings you know like a whole community is done with coral and salmon color that's really gross you
Annalise
35:43
you don't like that like edge mosh edge mod is sounds like when you're talking
Carter
35:47
talking you know when you're doing door knocking in these places and you just it's all the same color and you kind of barf a little into your mouth coral stucco yeah it's the worst i don't like that i had
Annalise
35:55
had a friend who lived in edgemont growing up a lot of you you didn't have
Carter
36:00
don't talk like that dark carter
Annalise
36:02
carter burn sick burn um okay what what next what now uh this comes back to council in september and and we you there because it's been like such a hot topic for 24 hours that almost feels to me like you're telling people hey three months to get your campaigns in order hey three months to like flyer the city with your thoughts like i guess what what do you think where do we go from here and what's your advice to people on either side of this who want to organize uh ahead of that september meeting get
Carter
36:39
um whatever side you're on the other side's going to be organizing so
Carter
36:43
so get yourself together find people
Carter
36:46
people who were outraged i mean the twitterverse was outraged today um you know find them i know I know that the pro-NIMBY side had very strong participation when we did the guidebook consultations a few years ago. Basically, one of the reasons that we have this problem is the NIMBYs have always been more prevalent than the YIMBYs. bees or yimbies yimbies this
Corey
37:20
yimbies so the pro nimbies also known as the aunties for sure to steven nimby meaning not by the way like this you
Carter
37:28
you know what i i lost my train a little bit nimbies and yimbies can
Carter
37:32
you clean this up a little bit for me i can
Corey
37:36
can we clean this i lost some clean
Carter
37:37
clean up some of it let's
Corey
37:39
let's just get some clean audio here let's just get some clean audio here
Corey
37:44
it this is okay you didn't give the clean audio we're gonna i
Carter
37:47
i like that clean
Carter
37:47
clean audio of quiet that's exactly what i was hoping for thank
Carter
37:51
you guys thank you both for what are we doing yeah
Annalise
37:55
what's your answer to my question carter's going nowhere i
Annalise
37:59
can't even what was my question understand
Annalise
38:01
either i think that the
Annalise
38:04
no it wasn't yeah what now Like, but no, it comes back in September. You've got three months. What do you do?
Corey
38:11
Yeah, well, I mean, this is, one of the things that I think was a bit of a trap that the councillors set for themselves is they have put a gun to their own heads here. They've basically invited the kind of discord and discourse that Stephen Carter's talking about, where you're going to have two sides yelling at each other, and you're going to have to pick a side, right? Right. It
Corey
38:30
It was probably if they had read the tea leaves in the last 24 hours and said, oh, my God, actually, the city is not with us right now.
Corey
38:37
We should just we should fail fast. Right. But what they've decided to do is really prolong this thing in a way that is going to invite this conversation and invite criticism of council for many months to come. And I just don't think that was particularly strategic of council. And maybe that's a bit of a running theme at this moment now. And so I
Corey
38:57
do believe that if you are on the outside looking at this, council has handed you a golden opportunity. They've told you that they're going to unbundle these things. They've told you that they are going to vote on this in September. And you can organize like crazy around individual questions and you can just flood the zone on it. And you can make misery for the individual counselors on individual issues. shoes and the counselors don't even get to hide between like i hear you on that one but the overall bundle is really good and the bundle is the important thing and it's not one it's a suite of things and there's a reason we need to keep it together instead they've unbundled their own fucking bill allowing them to get beaten to death on every single individual recommendation by every single interest group that's out there and they're just going to be bloodied at the finish line like there's a there's a possibility that there are different votes different combinations of yes yes and no on every single thing. And every single thing passes. And everybody is mad at every counselor because of this unbundling that they've done and the conversation they've invited over several months. Sucks for the counselors. Great if you're actually looking to try to get your individual thing in there. So just organize narrowly and go hard over the next bit.
Corey
40:08
They're not going to know what to do. They're fighting like an eight front war now with all of these these recommendations big mistake by them big opportunity for those organized sounds
Annalise
40:16
sounds like we should do something really good answer to my really good question cory you know what um do you think they do you think they saw this coming like it just in terms of that like that you saying like this is a bad
Annalise
40:26
bad position for them to be in the fact that it lost by one vote carter's falling off his chair there just i think that's kind of like the last piece of this is that like initial council strategy of asking
Annalise
40:38
asking a task force to do work having them come back with the work and And then having it lose by one vote.
Corey
40:44
Well, the reason you do task force, there's two reasons to do task forces, right? One is you legitimately don't know. So you get a task force together and you say, you're the experts, you let us know. And in those cases, you know what the proper thing to do is?
Corey
40:57
You do exactly what Stephen said. Listen to your task force. You ask for the expertise. You probably gave them parameters. If your terms of reference were so wide that it did things that were not on the table, that's on you. That's not on them. You ask them for solutions. You could have put them in more of a box. The second reason you hire a task force is to avoid political blame. You know what needs to be done and you need outside expertise to validate the thing that you want to do. And of course, Jason Kenney did this with the McKinnon panel when he was elected in 2019. He knew what he wanted to do in terms of funding for all of these various things. He needed outside, marked by a former NDP finance minister, yes, this is what needs to be done. This is the analysis against all of the other provinces. He knew that. He
Corey
41:40
He knew that. And
Corey
41:41
And if that's your strategy, then
Corey
41:44
then you just vote for it. And the minute you have a debate and you seize it back into the political sphere, you've ruined your own strategy. You fucking failed, man, because you had this get out of jail free. That's what the experts said. That's why we hire expert panels. And now votes are swapping back and forth, you're trading, all of that.
Corey
42:02
You blew it. You just blew it. If strategy one was your strategy, you blew it because you didn't listen to the experts. And if strategy two was your strategy, you blew it because you didn't depoliticize it. You ramped the politics up to fucking 11.
Carter
42:14
This is why we do this with politician
Carter
42:19
right? Politician pay is where we always put it out to an expert panel, right? And any expert panel that looks at the role and responsibility is going to come back and say, you know, this group of people deserves more pay because, you know, they're decision makers. There's consequences to the decisions. There's all kinds of reasons to push
Carter
42:39
push the pay packet. And then it comes back. And the second it gets back, if it gets politicized, all the work has gone away. And the way it always gets politicized is that people say, no, no, no, no, we should make 10% less, right?
Carter
42:53
That is the wrong instinct entirely. If you're going to make it political, then make it political. Do it for, you know, we'll do the lowest possible bidder gets to be the counselor, right? So someone who can do it for a dollar for a year is going to do it.
Carter
43:08
but what makes me a little bit frustrated is hearing this kind of idea that there's some sort of attribution of strategy to councils across the country. There generally isn't strategy across the country. I mean, I watched Surrey as they decided that they were going to get rid of the RCMP and move to their own police force. It's a financial disaster. It's not strategic by any stretch of the imagination. Instead, it's just one politician's dream to try and create something that's going to be a legacy. Legacies cost money, right? And so, you
Carter
43:44
you know, if this is, politicians at a civic level tend not to be nearly as strategic as the federal level. And in part, it's because we have too few parties. I know that some people will disagree with that and they'll say that the party system is broken in some fashion it's not it brings in professional leadership it brings in professional staffing and it enables a better outcome because the people who are working for you the people who are leading you are more skilled and more attentive at politics this is not uh this isn't you know an after-school project kids this is real and there are real life consequences and even though this you know this particular council is full-time they're supposed to be behaving like adults um the truth of the matter is sometimes they just don't it's
Annalise
44:29
it's quite the um trail you went down there that
Carter
44:33
was fantastic this is
Carter
44:34
answer of the night and i'm getting nothing for it nothing okay uh
Corey
44:39
uh i i i liked it you know i don't know
Carter
44:43
been sounds the worst that he likes it do we have zane still like does zane still work
Annalise
44:48
work for us what's going on
Annalise
44:50
we're gonna move on to um we're gonna do lightning round supersized lightning round is what we're gonna do um cabinet friday is that a thing yeah i've got like more than a couple questions cabinet is being announced on friday what will you be be looking for competence
Corey
45:13
for me the big question is the size of the cabinet right is she going to continue speaking of supersized with the supersized cabinet the largest cabinet or is she going to take a moment to shrink her cabinet down to a more rational size do
Annalise
45:28
do you think she can do supersized like one in two ml rays will be in cabinet if she keeps up the supersized cabinet will they not oh
Corey
45:36
oh yeah well and then the rest of them will all be committee chairs too yeah for sure i mean it would be ridiculous but i think it's possible if she decides that's the best way to keep the peace that's she's shown that she's willing to do that but there are knock-on effects that occur from that including the organization of government and uh i can't remember if it was on this podcast or on west of center uh that we were talking about it but um there
Corey
46:01
there was you know know, jobs, economy, and innovation, Doug Schweitzer's old portfolio, right? The economic development portfolio.
Corey
46:09
Danielle Smith basically split it into six different departments. You know, it wasn't even a big department when it was one department. And all of a sudden it became six. Like that's, that's
Corey
46:20
that's a lot of overhead. Every one of those departments is going to have a deputy minister, is going to have like kind of a central staff, is going to be operating towards different different objectives. And that can be a strength, right? You can say, okay, we're going to really focus in and have a dedicated staff on these particular areas. But if you're just doing it to keep mouths to be fed, it's also very expensive. And it can make government work at cross purposes if the overlap is too tight, right? If two people are working in the same space. So I'll be curious to see if she says, now we're going to do small government or smaller government, we're going to get back to normal, or if she declares this to be the new normal. And I'll tell you why I'm particularly interested in it because
Corey
46:58
because she gave a lot of new people deputy minister roles when she created all of these new departments.
Corey
47:05
If she shrinks the size of cabinet down, there's
Corey
47:08
there's a lot fewer chairs in this musical chairs. And historically, you can find places for a few deputy ministers on special projects, bring them in, move them over here, get them doing this thing. But if it's a large number, it's just simply not possible to keep them all.
Corey
47:23
And then who's off the the island.
Corey
47:25
I'm kind of feeling like it won't be the new people. I'm feeling like it'll be the old people. And so it could be an early sign of a really big turnover in the leadership of the Alberta Public Service.
Annalise
47:36
Carter, any additions to your response or your one word response was it?
Carter
47:40
No, I mean, I think that the large versus small is an interesting one. I am also very interested to see who gets what in Calgary. You know, will we see a deputy premier in Calgary? Will we see deputy premier in the in the what we lovingly refer to as the donut in edmonton um and then yeah i mean who
Carter
48:03
you i don't think you can run with as many ministers as she had before i think that it just creates too much havoc uh within the public service but
Carter
48:11
but that means that some people who maybe were cabinet ministers won't be cabinet ministers and it certainly will mean that people People who are expecting to be cabinet ministers won't be cabinet ministers. And that's
Carter
48:23
that's one thing when you're Rachel Notley and in 2015 and no one really expected to be there anyways. And it's another thing entirely if you're Danielle Smith and everybody who's been
Carter
48:33
been there for a minute or two is quite certain that they deserve to be in cabinet.
Carter
48:39
you know, I'm looking forward to it. Should be a gas. I actually would be surprised. I'd be interested to see if she puts any of the people facing judicial recounts into cabinet pending the actual outcome of the recount. That
Carter
48:53
That might be interesting.
Annalise
48:56
OK, another provincial question. So last
Annalise
49:00
last one and then we're going to we have a Toronto question after those guys in
Annalise
49:04
in these like postmortem features and such in the wake of the election. that was a week and a couple of days ago. There's this theme that the UCP is saying, they're saying like tough campaign first two weeks. And they're pointing out two specific days, May 16th and May 18th. May 18th was debate day. May 16th was the day the NDP released the financial calculation behind its platform and the business tax increase. And so they're saying like, this was like Christmas. And like, these were like the single days where we knew, okay, we've got this, we've won this campaign. I just want your take. I mean, obviously, when a campaign is done, people can can create narratives and they can storytell around it. But do you buy this idea that like, you
Annalise
49:45
you can pinpoint a single day where where you've won the election?
Corey
49:51
well we often do end up trying to point to them i mean if we look at 2015 we would all say the debate as well where rachel notley was uh pointed to by jim prentice and it was declared that she was the opponent and we've gone into that in the past but this is this is what we call a post-hoc confabulation it's trying to put a narrative to something that is fundamentally a lot more random than the narrative suggests it's it's going out and it's putting a nice story to make sense of like a month of crazy events and
Corey
50:21
and when people like i've heard this and i've actually heard this repeated now by new democratic supporters too like oh you know it's really about the corporate tax increase and the debate performance you know being 1a on that list of challenges that people have with why even new democrats think they might have lost the election i
Corey
50:40
remember it so cleanly when it was going on i don't remember the polling telling that story so cleanly i don't remember remember any of that before those two events you talked about there was a janet brown poll that had the ucp up by 10 points in calgary right like we didn't see major movement based on those two events so i have trouble believing it's
Corey
50:59
it's it's as advertised right as people are now saying
Corey
51:03
but in a way it doesn't matter because these myths they take over and they become the way we think about the elections after the fact and we we airbrush off all of the rough details and And, you know, it just becomes this nice, smooth thing we can say about 2023 and all of the complexities. And, you know, the many hours of podcasts we had, the back and forth, the thrust and parry, all of those conversations become two
Corey
51:24
two events. And it'll be two events in many people's minds going forward.
Corey
51:28
I don't remember it so cleanly.
Corey
51:31
I think it would be a real mistake of the NDP to read the election that way.
Corey
51:37
it's a good story. And I will say this, when
Corey
51:40
when the UCP were handed
Corey
51:43
handed the corporate tax increase the way they were, the
Corey
51:47
the way they were, I think there was a way you could have done it.
Corey
51:51
It allowed them to not think so much about their leader and think more about the NDP, right? right? I don't like Danielle Smith, but oh, geez, I don't know. And I will also say, NDP, you ran a strategy on she's risky and can't be trusted. You should have been stability all the way through and all of your actions that didn't scream stability.
Corey
52:13
Monday morning quarterbacking for sure. But I think it's a great example of how you need to be consistent all the way through your campaign. Campaigns are not just a series of events. Campaigns are stories that didn't help help tell the story you wanted to tell yeah
Carter
52:25
yeah i mean yeah i mean that those are mistakes to be sure and i've been a part of campaigns where the you know the one day thing
Carter
52:35
thing does make a big difference like for example i mean when when we did lake of fire uh with daniel smith in
Carter
52:43
i mean that that lake of fire narrative uh did change the election but it wasn't a day that's
Carter
52:51
I mean, it took weeks
Carter
52:52
weeks for that thing to catch because it
Carter
52:56
it turns out that, and we've talked about this in the podcast, people don't just get information all on the same day. Oh, everybody heard of it. Great. We're all done. Problem solved. You know, just wipe your, wipe, wipe, you know, put your tools away and we're, we're done now, kids. That's not the way the world works. It takes a lot of time to get information to stick. and the narratives that may stick are probably wrong. And again, I will add this. Nenshi, you know, so I've been on both sides of this. That was a day. But then Nenshi, you know, all of it was the narrative around,
Carter
53:32
well, you know, Nenshi was the first social media election. Well, kind
Carter
53:37
kind of, kind of not. You know, like it wasn't really the social media that elevated him. it was traditional word of mouth and and you know social networks that carried them but once the narrative is established you can say to
Carter
53:50
to your blue in the face you know it was a you know social networks is the same building
Carter
53:55
building blocks as we've seen in society blah blah blah um
Carter
53:58
um no one gave a shit they wanted the easier narrative to understand and and that easier narrative is
Carter
54:04
is is you know know social media or one day or whatever it may be so this is this
Carter
54:11
this is just it
Carter
54:13
was a very complicated election it was a very small ball i mean uh cory and i have talked to nazi about the number of different one things that may have changed this outcome and there there are a lot right one thing is
Corey
54:27
is a thousand one thing in
Carter
54:30
thing in january one thing in march I mean, all of these one things that could have changed it. So pointing at one, one thing seems relatively foolish.
Corey
54:39
And you know, Stephen, I'd be curious to hear your answer. Annalise, I'd be curious to hear your answer as well. When I think about the one moment that probably set this campaign, I have a different one moment. I'd be curious if I had to pick one. For me, it was the wildfires. It just broke the flow. It was like a first week of the NDP just murdering the UCP. We talked about how horrible that first week was. And it was a total reset of the campaign as soon as we got the wildfires. And it had a couple of effects. One, it allowed Daniel Smith to look like a premier.
Corey
55:15
Two, it truncated the rest of the campaign. So I have been critical about how many things came, how fast and how furious. And upon reflection, I think part of the reason that's the case is that four weeks became three weeks, effectively. And a lot of things got piled on top of that wildfire narrative that was moving at the exact same time. So that had a big effect. And we know that's when polling started to move.
Corey
55:38
Polling didn't move on the 16th and the 18th, as far as I can tell from all of the available sources here, right? right? There is the Abacus poll that went from like 10 points up to not.
Corey
55:49
But in hindsight, that was clearly an outlier, right? Because the other polls were telling different stories. And Janet Brown's polling, which everybody's holding up as this gold standard, it
Corey
55:59
didn't move in the question. Carter,
Carter
56:02
Carter, what would be your one thing?
Carter
56:04
My one thing isn't a moment in time. It was a a decision, uh,
Carter
56:08
uh, about how the election would be waged and, uh, you know, the war would be fought. Um, this, you know, I still think the lack of storytelling from, from the NDP making it relevant to me and to you and to our families, um, really hurt them. And it was, it was far more technical campaign than it needed to be.
Carter
56:30
And that to me had more impact than, than
Carter
56:33
than anything else. I mean, I do recall the wildfires and I will only take issue with one thing. And Corey says, you
Carter
56:39
you know, it it it shortened it from from four week period to a to a three week period. Well, it actually was shorter than that because this was a so heavy period on the on
Carter
56:55
the advance vote that really we're talking about a two week campaign. campaign and in that two weeks the big ideas that were coming out of the ndp were to increase corporate taxes and uh um well and that's all i can remember because the rest of them were relatively unimportant so you
Carter
57:13
you know it it was a frustration to be sure i i'm not sure i can point to any one day i just think you know in high neither campaign was particularly compelling compelling and it came down to a coin toss okay
Annalise
57:26
okay uh toronto guys this is a a listener question the toronto me oh the question is this is the toronto mayoral election a lock at this point with chow so far ahead with three weeks to go what can other candidates do if anything to rise up and to become serious contenders oh
Carter
57:45
no it's over i mean why i mean she shouldn't spend any more money do anything it's done campaigns never matter hey cory i mean when was the last time a campaign mattered yeah
Corey
57:56
yeah it's all set yeah
Corey
57:57
it's in the stars there's
Carter
57:58
there's a group of uh white guys in the background i'm i used to be one of them but then i started talking about it and
Carter
58:04
and uh they make all the they make all the choices anyways they
Corey
58:07
they make all the decisions yep
Corey
58:10
uh yeah look there's gonna be we've talked about this and this is the time you would expect to see a natural winnowing of such a a large field it's not a given we've also talked about the fact there's times when there's really long balance that don't win oh and that's how you end up with donald trump's and arnold schwarzenegger's and and the people who you know raise to the top because it's just it's it's a crowded field you don't need that many if it's a winner takes all kind of situation but i expect you're going to start seeing some of the candidates fall off i don't mean drop out i mean fall off kind of fade through the stretch. And that vote coalesced around, you know, the top three, maybe a top four with, you know, some strong showing by Fury inexplicably. My God, could you imagine if he becomes mayor of Toronto? But yeah, I mean, Toronto's in for a fun one. It's going to be a blast. And I look forward to many
Corey
59:04
many more years of Calgarians saying, our
Corey
59:08
our mayor versus your mayor. I mean, this doesn't tell the story you like to tell about us here, Tarana.
Carter
59:15
I mean, campaigns do matter, Annalise, and this campaign will matter. They do, really. Will, you
Carter
59:21
you know, Chao lose? I don't know. I mean, our prediction game is as strong as ever here on the Strategist Podcast. Like,
Annalise
59:29
Like, how are you saying are? You're just bringing Corey into that.
Annalise
59:33
Oh, yeah. Well, Corey and I had the exact same fucking
Carter
59:35
fucking prediction. I mean, whatever, Annalise. One
Annalise
59:39
One of you was a lot more confident in that prediction.
Carter
59:43
Well, you know, you're just making up a brand new history. I don't even
Carter
59:47
even understand. Like, what have you got in? Do you have anything else?
Annalise
59:51
else? Did I upset you? Do you have anything else
Annalise
59:54
else to say about the Toronto mayoral election? I'm done. That was my whole
Corey
59:59
You don't even want to say anything about Annalise's pronunciation of Toronto? No. Oh, did I pronounce it bad? She eats low-hanging fruit. I was reading. Well, that's how, that's how they, that's how they would say it. Toronto.
Carter
1:00:13
Yeah. Toronto. And you're going to get a laugh out of the discord
Carter
1:00:15
tomorrow. I'll tell you
Corey
1:00:16
you that. It's like if there was a, I'll tell you what, it's like if on the Hurley Burley, they were talking about Calgary. Oh no.
Corey
1:00:23
Yeah. That was a huge
Annalise
1:00:23
huge faux pas. I apologize to anyone listening. Yeah. And me. And
Corey
1:00:28
And me. And the city
Annalise
1:00:28
city of. No, I don't want to say it. Toronto.
Annalise
1:00:34
Okay. We're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 1072 of The Strategist. My name is Annalise Klingbeil. With you, as always, Stephen Carter and Corey Hogan.