Transcript
Corey
0:01
This is a strategist episode. Zain,
Carter
0:03
Zain, there's no time for
Corey
0:03
for that. We've got a live announcement. Yeah,
Carter
0:04
Yeah, come on, Zain.
Zain
0:06
Is it that I'm back? Zain's back, everybody. Is that back? Nice to see you, Zain.
Zain
0:10
qualify as me coming back when I keep going away and
Carter
0:12
and coming back? Focus, Zain. Focus on the big announcement, for God's sake.
Zain
0:15
Focus. Well, it turns out I haven't been brought into the big announcement, so I'm happy to hear there's an announcement. Take it away. What episode number are we? We wouldn't want the integrity of
Corey
0:25
of the numbering system to be. What number
Corey
0:26
do we want it to be, actually? Let's work this out live, too.
Corey
0:30
okay so the big announcement is um that we're going to do a live show big live
Carter
0:36
big live show you're
Corey
0:36
you're hearing it first as a patron of of the strategist which
Zain
0:43
i'm hearing it first as the host of the strategist yes uh cory what tell us what's going to happen because we have done many live shows before they've
Corey
0:52
no we're doing an iterative thing here we're gonna we're gonna build it together we're gonna build a live show together we have a venue step one can
Zain
0:57
can i just be clear uh we are we are telling the people who pay for our show pay to listen to this episode that we're going to build a live show that we then want them to pay to also attend that's
Carter
1:07
what they pay for zane this is what they pay for i like
Corey
1:10
like it i like it okay no no so we do know a few things it's april 2nd it's at the grand theater in calgary what
Corey
1:16
what time is it at
Carter
1:16
at 37 30 doors will be at seven so
Carter
1:19
so they can drink before this april
Corey
1:21
2nd like what What day of the week is that?
Corey
1:24
Oh, that's not a... Isn't it a Sunday?
Corey
1:27
It's a little too late to change, I guess. You
Carter
1:28
You know, you guys... If you guys had... You know, I'm going to throw this out here. You saw the contract. You saw the
Zain
1:34
the description. I thought April 2nd sounded good. I just figured April 2nd was a Thursday. We do these shows on a Thursday. No, you know what? I
Corey
1:39
I mean, strictly speaking, you don't even have signing authority for the corporation, Carter. I don't really know how you're getting us into this trouble. Well,
Carter
1:46
Well, I mean, I didn't tell them that part.
Carter
1:48
So let's not bring it up. Okay,
Zain
1:50
Okay, so April 2nd. you're you're so hold on can i be telling you're telling people on a sunday evening to come into downtown it's
Zain
1:57
it's gonna be awesome oh yeah we're gonna be the only people there i
Zain
2:01
us and the sheriffs the sheriffs the provincial sheriffs i think we do a takeover we're gonna do a flash mob okay go ahead so
Zain
2:08
about what we're literally said it's iterative and you get annoyed as soon as i suggest a fucking flash mob well because because i said iterative not hopeless okay we got a flash mob is now part of it any of you people who wanted to pay to be at a flash mob that was also another revenue source but now
Zain
2:22
now cory shut that down that's
Corey
2:23
that's okay all right okay first of all before we go a moment further i am committing to everyone listening we are not going to take the whole episode oh i'm committing
Corey
2:29
as the host who's recently returned that we will we
Corey
2:34
we have backup options you don't have to worry about zane taking this one too far do
Zain
2:37
do you have backup options
Zain
2:41
check let's clip that for annalise let's clip that part where i say do you have backup options that he says not really with the a very uh
Zain
2:47
well telling side that's right okay keep going but not today not
Corey
2:52
so this is going to be april 2nd it's just like what 60 days to the election at that something
Carter
2:57
something like that yeah
Corey
2:59
so we um we thought that
Corey
3:03
that we're gonna we're gonna make it about strategy for the election that seems sensible given
Carter
3:07
given that we're strategists yeah
Zain
3:08
here's what we're gonna do okay you are gonna assemble in a theater with and carters what's the capacity of this theater 400 people oh
Zain
3:15
shit okay that's pretty legit okay so 400 people at the grand theater i've also done can i just
Carter
3:20
just interject before you do anything more i've
Carter
3:22
i've also set aside a special tier of seats for our 20 a month cory and carter advisor level of patrons where they get seats in the mezzanine you have to ask for those by name you have to ask for the special patreon seats then you can pay
Corey
3:38
extra this is getting gross i didn't let's keep i
Carter
3:40
i didn't tell you but they're the worst seats in the house i've set them aside simply for the patron that's how much that's wonderful yeah they they suck you're on an actual stool instead of a nice comfortable chair like it's really bad
Carter
3:54
looking forward to mistreating our patrons quite a bit okay
Zain
3:57
okay so here's all right well
Corey
3:58
well that actually sounds a little more
Zain
3:59
more yeah i feel better let me try to sketch it up because cory you literally said you don't want this to take the whole episode and then you gave the most piss poor description of what the show is uh the election coming up so we thought we're gonna do strategy thing yeah
Zain
4:12
here's what's gonna happen carter what they're used to what the fans are used to they're used to the martha cohen yeah they're used to the maharaja but now they get to go to the grand theater they get to be part of fucking the hell cory they get to be part of an audience of 400 people yeah they get to watch a show but it's a very different show because what will end up happening is that cory hogan and stephen carter the two big brains of strategy on this show we'll each pick a team between
Zain
4:38
between the ucp and the ndp and you guys will come with some notes some preparation but will be a guided strategy session in the form of a show where you produce a winning strategy for each side you guys get to poke holes in each other's strategies you guys get to hold on to have shenanigans will will ensue trust me despite my guest appearance status on this show uh shenanigans will absolutely ensue but the whole point of it is with the The audience's help, their ability to poke holes at it, my ability, Annalise's ability to poke holes at it. You guys will create winning strategies for the NDP and the UCP heading to an election at the end of May. Stephen Carter. I
Carter
5:17
I am not prepared to create two
Zain
5:21
No, you do one.
Zain
5:23
I very clearly said you will do one each.
Zain
5:26
Well, but you OK.
Carter
5:28
So how do we determine which one do I get to do? Like, do I get to choose first because I'm oldest?
Corey
5:35
That's a good question. I mean, we could put this to a vote. We could do a coin toss. I don't have a coin. You know what
Carter
5:39
what would be great? It's
Carter
5:41
don't have a coin. I don't know if I have a coin. Here's what we do.
Carter
5:43
We put it to a vote.
Carter
5:45
We put it up on the Patreon page where we can do surveys. You and I have learned this, Corey. We've done this before. We found out that most of our audience, I think, were freaks. I can't remember who they were voting for. But they did not reflect the gen pop.
Carter
6:00
So we put it up. No, it didn't. And then they can vote, you
Carter
6:03
you know, for Corey to do the UCP. Do the question
Zain
6:07
design here, Carter. Yeah. How's the
Zain
6:09
question design going to be? Because
Zain
6:10
was just thinking about it.
Carter
6:12
Go ahead. Corey can do the UCP or I can do the NDP. And those
Carter
6:18
will be the two choices. And they can choose from those two choices then.
Corey
6:24
That's interesting. So I think that what it will subconsciously do, though, because there'll be a combination. It'll be a combination of who
Corey
6:31
who are our listeners supporting and who do they think is a better strategist. So if, for example, our
Corey
6:36
our very right-wing fan base picks me to be the UCP strategist, that would explain that they think I'm the better strategist. I think if you were the
Carter
6:45
the better strategist, you would have found the hole in my design of the question right off the bat.
Corey
6:51
No, I think we just breezed right past it. None of us were lost. i just i'm
Carter
6:56
i'm just saying that if
Corey
6:57
if yeah the heads i win tails you lose bet very funny very live
Zain
7:00
live show april 2nd uh with the grand theater the strategist live present uh the winning strategy session we'll figure out a name for it you guys get first dibs you can even help us can they even fucking pick a name carter with your survey who knows uh who cares do
Carter
7:15
do all kinds of that winning
Zain
7:16
winning campaign strategies for for both sides i'll make a guest appearance uh we'll figure out in what way, shape, or form. Annalise will be there to host. And Carter, you're predicting sellout here, over, under on sellout.
Carter
7:30
Yeah, I mean, I'm predicting that we sell out just to the patrons.
Carter
7:34
Like, we won't even get to the general audience. We'll announce this to the general audience on like Sunday, maybe, Monday, maybe. I don't know when we record. Zane, when are you available next?
Carter
7:44
Because you're supposed to be two on and then, you know, four or five off or whatever your regular schedule is now. So Sunday night. Let's not.
Carter
7:52
sunday night you record and we then we open up to gen pop maybe we you know whatever
Carter
7:57
and uh i bet you were sold out before gen pop even gets a chance now
Zain
8:00
now that we've given them the tease now that they know that they want to do this they want to attend they want to fill one of those if not two of those uh 400 seaters uh cory hogan how do they do that do they go to the strategist live.ca or is it strategist live uh i i i should i mean you literally
Corey
8:17
literally picked the one url we don't have okay
Zain
8:19
we don't have that so we should buy
Corey
8:20
buy it yeah we don't have the strategist live.ca well where does that actually go hold
Corey
8:24
the strategist live.com we
Corey
8:26
we have strategist live.com and we have strategist live.ca but we do not have the strategist live because unfortunately we got into a bit of a dispute yeah this is backstory that's important for people to know
Corey
8:39
yeah we got into a bit of a dispute last time we were doing live shows and as part of our settlement with the well if with an airline that we were in a dispute with yes of course we We had to give this airline one of the URLs, and so that was the one that we gave them. So don't go to thestrategistlive.ca. No. You go to thestrategistlive.anyoftheotheroptions that we've had.
Zain
9:01
Corey's also wrong about that. You go to thestrategistlive.com, and then strategistlive.com, strategistlive
Zain
9:08
strategistlive.ca. Those are the three that will definitely take you to the tickets. If you go to thestrategistlive.ca, I mean, don't do it. I personally wouldn't do it. But
Carter
9:17
I've got lost. I don't know which one's ours again. Could you explain it again for the audience? Because I'm... Absolutely.
Zain
9:22
Absolutely. Absolutely, I can. Yeah. So the strategistlive.ca, that's the one that you will find in the court settlement that we had to provide, right? So that's the one that we no longer own. It was highly valuable. It now has boosted the market share of a certain airline significantly by double digits. That one is given away, okay? That one is parked elsewhere. Kind of like... We don't have that one. most of this airline's fleet that that domain name is parked elsewhere okay strategist live.ca the strategist live.com strategist uh strategist live.com excellent excellent places to visit because that is where you'll be able to get your tickets grand theater april 2nd steven carter cory hogan the strategist live dueling strategy session winning strategy session we'll figure out what we call it it's to the patrons it's all a rough draft with you guys anyways let's move it on to our first segment yes those are my transitions guys are to our first segment quiet quitting steven carter uh
Zain
10:17
uh this is not about me in the podcast i was
Carter
10:19
was gonna ask about
Carter
10:21
an announcement you wanted to make or no
Zain
10:23
no i well i think i've made it with my actions haven't i uh
Zain
10:27
uh i want to talk about i want to talk about something that i found fascinating that you guys might not find fascinating but i don't give a fuck because Same
Carter
10:34
Same old, same old. Okay, good. Stephen
Zain
10:37
Stephen Carter. Welcome back, Zane. There
Zain
10:39
There are two openings right now, or two obvious openings in political life if you're a resident of Ontario. One of them is leadership for the Ontario Liberal Party. And one of them, of course, as we've discussed on one of the last episodes I was on, is Mayor of Toronto.
Zain
10:53
What I find really interesting about this, Carter, is that both of these seem to be relatively short, relatively quick turnaround sort of races. They will appeal to those that have name recognition. Stephen Carter, when you think about people that have name recognition, it's largely sitting politicians. And you're seeing that. For the Ontario Liberal leadership, you're seeing Yasser Naqvi, sitting MP, former Ontario MPP and minister. minister, Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, also an MP, looking at this sort of spot as well. And then on the mayoral side, you're seeing some of the names of yesteryear kind of kick the tires. You're seeing some sitting councillors, but you're also seeing folks like Mitzi Hunter, a sitting MPP, now looking for a job potentially as mayor.
Zain
11:39
I find this really interesting, Carter, this concept of politicians looking for jobs while they have them. In every other domain, in every other field, of course, you secure your next gig before you quit this one. But in politics, we've kind of looked at it in a negative light, kind of being like, do you kind of try to get one job while you have the other? What do you really represent? So, Carter, I think I want to use today's episode to talk about this phenomenon. I've called this quiet quitting, and it's not quiet quitting, or is it? it. But Carter, give me your thoughts on this. Politicians with existing jobs seeking other jobs, there's a strategy behind how to do it well. There's a strategy about how you explore it properly. How do you balance your constituents that you have, specifically around the constituents that you want, which might be different? And should it be derided in politics? And maybe we'll start with that particular question, Carter. Have we for the longest time looked at those that that are seeking other opportunities in political life in a negative light incorrectly?
Carter
12:37
Well, I think that, you know, first of all, you are far more likely to move within your field than outside of your field, regardless of what your field may be, right? So if you're in tech, you're likely to move within the tech industry. It is highly unlikely that you're going to move from tech to some completely other different field. Now, which doesn't say that it doesn't happen. Of course, we have new entrants into politics all the time. But the two high profile positions that you spoke about, we talked about how, at least for the mayor of Toronto version, it was very likely to be someone who already had a past reputation, because it's going to be very difficult to assign and create different, you know, a brand position without having an existing one. And without being known, I can't see this being a particularly easy
Carter
13:30
easy path in the short term for a politician to take. So this being a known politician is probably the only way to get through. So of course, we're going to see people whose names are already known. And it's not like when you apply within your field, right? Like you put your name forward and no one's talking about you applying for different jobs because it's all done behind closed doors when you're a politician it's all done out in the open and that out in the open is testing
Carter
14:03
testing the waters seeing if people are interested in you actually being in this position those types of decisions those types you don't want to just throw your hat in and hope for the best you want to actually throw your hat in and have a chance which means you have to have some sort of public discussion about whether or or not the public's going to respond to you in a positive or negative fashion so
Zain
14:24
it's such a good point right like you yeah
Zain
14:27
you you have to do it all in the open and i think part of that cory is like what
Zain
14:32
what i think is interesting about these particular races is the names i've just mentioned don't have to quit their existing job to explore this opportunity right i think that's one of the reasons that's one of the reasons that you're hearing the knack fees and the earth's expense because they're not leaving the liberal federal liberal caucus to pursue an opportunity at the provincial level. And same with Mitzi Hunter. She's not giving up her MPP seat as a member of the Ontario Liberals to pursue this as mayor. The question is, Corey, should they have to? Because all of this is out in the open, should you have to? Politics has been given this special sort of like you explore new opportunities in the open, you do exploratory committees, you do it all in the open. But is this a sacrifice to your current job, your current role and responsibility, that you are now seeking this without necessarily having to risk your current gig that you own? Talk to me about your thoughts on that before we get into like how one does it and your experiences, if you've had any with politicians that have kind of tried to not jump ship, I say that so negatively, but tried to pursue other opportunities. Your thoughts first, Corey. Yeah.
Corey
15:34
Well, look, first of all, voters can decide whether them looking for exits in different gig down the road is ultimately disqualifying. And I think that is is the safeguard that we should be relying on and not creating rules around this otherwise. But, you know, it tells us a little bit about how politics is perceived. And in reality, federal issues are different from provincial issues, they're different from municipal issues. But in practice, voters sort of see them all as the same bucket of service, right? They're taking a philosophical approach to the same general types of issues, and they're going to manage them. Because there's an argument to be made that having experience as a federal politician is a pretty piss-poor experience for a provincial politician. Our
Corey
16:14
Different role, different responsibilities. And yet I think most voters would be like, politicians, politician, I guess they can move to a different level of government. Sure. So that in itself is interesting to me.
Zain
16:25
competency flow through. That's a good point. We'll hit on that.
Corey
16:29
Yeah. And look, I'll say this. In some ways, we
Corey
16:33
we tend to perceive looking at leadership opportunities at different levels no different than we perceive looking at leadership opportunities at the same level because you can make a lot of the same arguments you just made when somebody decides to explore running for leader of their current caucus right like where your eyes not on the ball oh you're not eyes not on the ball you're not thinking about your constituency you're all of a sudden thinking about all of these other issues that have to do with you know the province as a whole or the nation as a whole rather than the thing i elected you to do
Zain
17:00
whatever the fuck you know yeah or
Corey
17:02
or frankly even being a minister as as opposed to being an MP without a portfolio, because that's a different job still. And when you're a minister, you are being taken away from those issues. And so we do tend to look at these things and just allow that certain permeability. And I think as voters, we just see it all as like one greasy ladder, everybody's trying to climb however they can, and maybe they leap to the other side or not. And we seem to be totally fine with that. And the people going out there, they always say sort of the same thing, like, well, I'm just looking for other ways to serve, different ways to serve i want to continue to serve my constituents but in a different manner right and um again voters can be the ultimate judge of that but i will say that like the strivers in politics in my experience they are taking their eye off that local constituency ball they they really are and and at the end it might actually be better for their constituency on net because they have control of the reins yeah yeah but but it is different and it does take you away from from that constituency work, that we want our MPPs, our MPs, our MLAs, our council people. It takes it away from that. Yeah,
Zain
18:09
Yeah, that's very sharp analysis, Corey, and very clarifying, because you're right. We do see this pattern of behavior. A minister spends significantly less time on their local constituency than a backbencher, a leader even less, right? But to your point, they have the reins of power of being able to shift certain things, one would say. So maybe they serve their constituents deeper. more,
Corey
18:31
more, more, more, more holistically in
Zain
18:32
in a certain direction. But Carter, you know, we, we seem to forgive and tell me if you think my, my assessment is accurate. We seem to forgive that quite easily, striving within your own party, striving to become a minister, right? Like that's just expected, but to go look for another political job, there's a bit of eye rolling. And I'm going to talk about the eye rolling from the public, but there's also a bit of eye rolling and consternation that that one's own caucus can have. If you're a NACFI or a Nerskin Smith being like, the fuck, man, like we're fighting for our lives. You got Pierre Polyev here, like, and you're looking for another job. You're looking for an off ramp. So talk to me about like, let's talk about the public first. And then I want to talk about like the caucus sort of thing, Carter. Yeah.
Carter
19:13
Yeah. I mean, I think that the public has changed their expectations as we do this too, because it used to be that, you know, you could just do it. And that was that. Now you have to, to, you know, make a pledge to give away your salary or that you're going to give it you're going to donate it to charity or something along those lines so it doesn't appear that you're you feel like that's just like when you
Zain
19:33
you have seen that as like a strategist and someone who believes in like this function of of politicians as public servants right not to get too on our high horse do you feel like that's a race to the bottom every time a politician says i'm not taking my pension i'm going to donate this back to charity i hate
Corey
19:50
it's a very privileged place to be right
Corey
19:52
right and and one of the reasons george George Washington, like the U.S. president, not George Washington, the bridge in, you know, the city of New York. Thank you for that. George Washington, the president, took a salary despite being fairly wealthy. And it was in part because he knew he was setting an expectation that if he didn't, future presidents were not going to be. I'm
Zain
20:13
I'm sorry. This is George Washington, the person, not George Washington, high school. Not the bridge. Not high school in Denver, right? Not George Washington and I? No, not the high school in Denver either. But a
Corey
20:21
a good clarification, Zane, because a lot of people do think that this was George Washington in the high school in Denver. But George Washington, the president, he
Corey
20:28
took a salary despite not needing one. Not the middle grade school in San Francisco
Zain
20:33
I'll check on that
Corey
20:34
that one. For now,
Zain
20:34
now, we'll just go with
Corey
20:35
with the person, the president. So either the middle school or the president, when they had their position, they said, no, I'm going to take the salary. Now, you can say that's self-serving, but the philosophy behind it, the logic behind it, the reason we pay politicians in the first place, because politicians were not always paid. is because by paying them, you are not excluding people that were otherwise excluded. Like, you couldn't have a day laborer being an MP in England if the MP was expected to pay their own salary, right? And
Corey
21:02
And so, you know, the reason we pay these people is not entirely because of the work they do, but because we do think it's a public service and we want it to be available to everybody from all walks of life. And the more you create this expectation that when you start doing things like this, you give your salary away. Well, imagine you're an MP who is like a mother of three, who
Corey
21:22
who is a single mother, does not have any other income earners, and would actually not mind being leader of their party, or perhaps leader of a provincial party. But now they simply cannot do it because an expectation has been set that they have to give away their salary. Despite having been elected, despite this potentially being a different way to serve, you know, it becomes an avenue only available to a certain class of politicians. So I'm generally pretty disdainful anytime a politician gives away their salary or says I'm only going to take a dollar a year or any of that nonsense for those reasons.
Zain
21:51
We saw a version of that in Alberta just to kind of make it live
Zain
21:54
live with, you know, former Premier Jim Prentice, right? Covered all his expenses, if I'm not mistaken, Carter, and also either took a reduced salary or no salary. But certainly I know the expenses side, he just covered it all out of pocket because he was a, he's
Zain
22:07
he's a very wealthy man. in
Carter
22:08
yeah i mean and he also took every headache out of the way you're not going to hear about his 1400 town car ride from calgary to edmonton you know it's right he made it a seamless experience
Zain
22:18
experience for him and on his terms with his cost the
Carter
22:22
the cost of covering those expenses was less than the cost of uh the potential problem of having those expenses exposed and you know this elitist thing still exists i mean new hampshire has a huge um assembly that gets paid a pittance and it is it for it makes service totally different it also makes governance very different so the type of government that we want to have is dictated on having a certain level of service and a certain level of professionalism and so getting people paid and having them paid all the way through does make a significant difference now returning to the central point question which is the You know, being the being
Carter
23:04
being the the candidate, you know, we would we shouldn't be putting this this block. I like the idea. The general population thinks that these skills are transferable, obviously, to anybody who's worked in the municipal frame, as well as the provincial frame and the federal frame. They're not transferable skills.
Carter
23:24
They're extremely different skills, but that shouldn't really matter. By keeping them at least transferable, we keep a population that is at least looking at different options. It's hard enough to get people involved in politics without constraining it and saying, you're going to just be a federal politician and you can't seek the next office. You can't seek your next opportunity until such time as you resign and move away from this particular opportunity. That would be very counterproductive to us as a society. And I think that that's what we should be getting back to in general is, does this benefit us as a society that these names are coming forward and being put forward to take these positions? And my argument would be, yes, having experienced politicians put their names forward is certainly going to help the city of Toronto and the Ontario Liberal Party more than having an inexperienced pool of talent.
Zain
24:26
You know, Corey, this to me is different than the Horvath and the Del Duca experience where they both lose and they're both finding another job, right? Carter makes a good point about this is a profession. You can find gigs in that profession, right? I don't have problems with that. What I wanted to kind of talk about is this concept of if one of these politicians, let's just use Yasser Naqvi, right? Right. This is a former MPP justice minister, now MP in Ottawa, you know, openly exploring running to be the next leader of the Ontario Liberal Party, as kind of stated previously. Premier would be an ideal gig for him. He's also part of the Trudeau Liberal Caucus right now. So if you approached you, Corey, saying some of the basic questions, should I be feeling guilty about trying to seek this job while being part of Trudeau's caucus? Should I? How would you how would how would you, Corey? How should I navigate my colleagues around this? How should I talk about? Give me some like I don't I don't want to build like a rules list, but I'm curious, like if we want to like make this gig in this profession robust, we want to have people like make money that that they can live on, explore other opportunities, like, you know, have personal growth, have quality names to Carter's point that can, you know, move across different occupations. How would you talk to him as a strategist, but also as kind of a supporter of the overall ecosystem, if that makes sense? Like, what were some of the things you tell him around, like, should I feel guilty? How should I talk to my caucus about this? Because those are concerns.
Corey
25:53
Yeah, I would start by saying, what's your job?
Corey
25:56
And when inevitably he said, well, it's to represent my constituents and it's to fight for these things, I'd say, well, make sure you're still doing your job while you're going out and trying to find this other job. And there's lots of versions of that. And there's, you know, like a very talented MP could
Corey
26:09
could probably do that better than, you know, while still looking for another job than an incompetent MP who's just basically taking oxygen up in the House of Commons. And there's an awful lot of them, right? So, look, I think it's fine as long as you're continuing to meet a certain base level expectation of behavior. You've got to be clear with your colleagues and your leader about what that might mean. You should ask your leader to be clear with you about what his or her expectations would be as you're going throughout this process. and, you know, what might actually have to drag you back to the job that you are currently doing. And if you can do that, then I think that it's all fair ball. And in some ways, I think about it not too dissimilarly from when, you know, other people in a corporate setting are looking for a role. As long as you're still doing your job, you're free to look for other jobs, right? But, you know, and the job of MP is a very flexible job, and there are a lot of ways that you can do it. Now, that said, if we go any further, I would say explore
Corey
27:04
explore opportunities that interest you. And, you know, your career is a jungle gym, not a ladder. And maybe you want to be prime minister, but maybe you think you want to be premier, first for a bit, and all of that. Interesting. There are considerations there. But, like, don't deny yourself opportunities. But also make sure this is something you're actually interested in and actually want to do and that you're not just striving or looking for the next thing for the sake of the next thing. This is the opportunity to move forward. word because you don't get to just ping pong around perpetually do a thousand different roles pick the things that matter to you and go towards them and be thoughtful about it because the last thing you want to be is the guy or the gal who's going to run for everything whenever it comes up right that's a challenge well
Zain
27:43
well you make such a good point and carter i'm almost going to break it down in this two two molds that cory's kind of put how do you do it so if you if you decide you want to do it how do you communicate your leader your caucus colleagues the public that that you're going to look at this job, but seek another one. And it's awkward. It is awkward because like Corey, you make a point around the corporate world, but like not many people get to prance around being like, I'm going to do my nine to five, but I'm going to do it nine to two. And I'm going to spend two to five finding the other gig, right? Like, you know, some people have the ability to get away. Most of us don't. So the fact is this is all what is happening right now. He's fucking kind of awkward, right? Like, and there is that bit of that eye rolling and what's going on. So Carter, I want to talk about it. Once you've made a decision that you want to to pursue it, how you do it. And then I also want to talk about Corey's point, whether you do it, because Corey, you make some really good points around how do you access job match, make sure it's the right gig for you, like striving in any direction versus one direction. Carter, give me your thoughts on this. I know you're jumping to get in, but I wanted to maybe set up a bit of a framework for us to consider.
Carter
28:38
I think that you need to kind of accept that this is the rules of the game, right? You need to put yourself out there to ensure that you're going to be welcomed into this the the key is to be honest about it you need to tell your leader even if you're still kind of behind the scenes um you need to have spoken to your leader the the leader being taken off guard by this would be very problematic for any politician um that would create a challenge for that and so telling your leader is
Carter
29:08
is more important guys
Zain
29:09
guys that are looking at it right now i've probably talked to trudeau even though they're the backbenchers they don't are not not ministerial portfolios, I think they've somehow communicated to the PMO or to Trudeau that before their name appeared in the newspaper or whatnot, that this is what they wanted to do.
Carter
29:22
I think that both, you know, both of the people that we're talking about are very strong individuals, and they would not have made the mistake of not talking to their leader. In general, in politics, in general, you don't surprise the leader. That's one of the kind
Carter
29:39
of one of the core you
Carter
29:41
know rules of politics if you will don't surprise your leaders so
Carter
29:46
this would be a big surprise you know your your leaders out there you know on working the stump making sure that everybody's talking about the right thing and all of a sudden the leader gets a question about you
Carter
29:55
you know you and whether or not you're going to be even a candidate for them in the next in the next election that's
Carter
30:02
that's probably not a great way to start with your leader so you know or to stay with your leader. The
Carter
30:09
The other thing to do is don't let your name float if you're not actually going to do it. Bernard Lord, I think, stands out as one of the great, great
Carter
30:18
great lessons of this, where he let his name kind of stand that he would be around for leader
Carter
30:23
leader of the conservatives a couple of times. And then, you know, he went so far as to meet with people. You know, he was the youngest premier in New Brunswick, one of the youngest premiers in Canada, I think. I think he was literally the youngest at one point he may still have been um who
Carter
30:39
who remembers these records but he you know he's an up-and-comer he was going to be all this and all that but his name got floated for everything at all times and he never took
Carter
30:48
took the plunge and ultimately his
Carter
30:51
his name stopped being floated because no one ever thought he would he would be in that position where he would would actually you know
Carter
30:58
know put his name down as a potential candidate um so if you're going to let your name float then
Carter
31:06
then make sure you're considering the gig and if
Carter
31:09
if you're going you know if you're going to consider the gig then you better let your name float so in
Carter
31:14
in any at any understanding you have to let your name out there i'm
Zain
31:19
i'm gonna go to corey on this can i talk about this whole concept of floating and these are you know sure
Zain
31:24
these are interest levels zane velgey wants to is interested in something obsessively i was interested in something obsessively last night i talked to you guys about it for like 40 minutes and you guys were like shut the fuck up and leave yeah stop talking that's what these episodes are these days yeah people like them who gives a fuck about them right carter live show april 2nd do not go to the strategist live.ca that will lead you to a fourth tier airline that is also a proud sponsor of this podcast carter not not our sponsor um carter this concept of letting it thought exercise for you if bernard lord had had run right
Zain
31:56
right he had actually pulled the trigger on one of those things he was being floated and lost would he have lost less political capital than continuously being floated and have never ran for for one of these things like i'm you know i'm trying to say what loses more capital for you like is it the constant l's or is it the fact that you you never can pull the trigger because i think we know a few people in the local and even provincial orbit that were like they should do this they should do this and they never ultimately do well
Carter
32:21
well and you even hear their names right oh did Did you hear so-and-so was thinking about running for blank?
Carter
32:25
And it becomes a laughingstock. You're like, yeah, that person is never going to pull the trigger. So we're not going to think of them. It
Corey
32:32
It doesn't matter how many Zane Velgey for leader posters
Carter
32:34
posters we sell. Zane Velgey is never going to run for leader. He's never going to do it. It's just very disappointing. I'll
Zain
32:38
I'll say today we sell 1,000 by the end of the weekend. I'll run for any leadership position that anyone wants me to run for. I'll do it. I'll do
Carter
32:45
do it. It sounds pretty exciting. Let's get out there and push those things. things. But you know, like why would ... people invest in ... Zayn Abbas You
Corey
32:56
can't wait for Zayn to be mayor of Toronto. Peter Robinson You're very
Zain
32:59
very excited about my candidacy before it. This is a very meta because now your level of enthusiasm has gone down. Zayn Abbas It's
Zain
33:04
It's been floated too many times. Peter Robinson I'm
Zain
33:07
I'm interrupting your stream of thought.
Carter
33:09
Listen, and I don't remember what my stream of thought was, but know
Zain
33:13
know that it was good. Peter Robinson What do you lose more political capital on? Never running or running and losing? never running
Carter
33:17
running is way worse running
Carter
33:19
running and losing you could lose you know there could be next time there could be you know that person's got an opportunity running and losing every time very very bad you
Carter
33:28
you know anything to excess very bad and i think you know you let your name get floated once and then you don't pull the trigger no one's going to notice but you're the next time you better pull the trigger uh because if you don't it's all over it's just you're never going to be taken seriously carter
Zain
33:44
carter i'm going to come to car i'm going to speak for one more second Second, your advice to the Yasir Naqvi or Ernst & Smith when they're saying, listen, Corey's telling me some things. Make sure I can still do my job and be clear with my leader. And he's talking to me about make sure this is an opportunity, in this case, Ontario Liberal leader, that I actually want to do, that it's not just because it's available or it's an off-ramp. Any other advice you'd want to give to me, Carter, as a campaign strategist around me keeping my current gig, but exploring leaving it? What else would you add for me before we talk about whether the gig is right for you, etc., which I want to do next?
Carter
34:16
I think that there really has to be a question asked of, are you doing this for the right reason? Is this just simply the next step on your ladder? Because if so, then it's probably not a good enough reason for you to actually seek this position. You need to be doing this because you wish to serve in the role that you're going to get. Because, you know, if you get the job and then you fucking hate the job,
Carter
34:39
it's not worth being there. That was actually one of the interesting things about John Tory. john tory seemed to love being the mayor of toronto he he seemed to sell right into it you know even though he'd been in all these other roles so the
Zain
34:52
the other yeah if
Carter
34:53
if if if it's not going to be the gig that you want then don't take the gig um so that that would probably be my advice is that you know there's always all kinds of opportunities the fluidity available i was just talking to someone the other day about the fluidity available to them to move from provincial politics to municipal or from provincial politics to federal politics. There's so much movement. It's not like you have to take this opportunity or your political career will be over. So make sure that it's actually the right choice for you and for your family.
Zain
35:31
Corey, give me your thoughts on this. I know you got a few thoughts. You just put your hand up here to respond to Carter. But also Also, talk to me, but can I add one more thing to your agenda, which is how do you talk to your caucus colleagues about this? How do you convince them that, like, you're going to be a good, effective team player, even though you're going to do your job? You're going to do your nine to five and a nine to two. Well, what messaging? How would you start thinking about your colleagues in this situation? Because in some ways they matter more than the boss. I mean, fuck it, whatever. You're like, do your thing, man. Right. Maybe they do. Maybe. Maybe they
Carter
36:05
well, can I ask you? Go ahead. Like,
Carter
36:06
do you actually think,
Corey
36:07
you know, the interesting thing about being a politician and just to say an opposition politician, which is not the case we're talking about here, right, is that your
Corey
36:15
your colleagues, having fewer of your colleagues around doing things actually increases the opportunities for them, right? Like, it's not like where it's like, oh, man, now I got to do all of Yasser's work. That's not what it is. It's like, oh, now I get his questions in question period. Oh, I get his committee postings, right? There's actually opportunity that's created for your colleagues when you step away like this. So it's a bit of a different conversation. So I actually don't agree or don't think that your big challenge is your relationship with your colleagues. It's more like, hey, gang, I'm going to do this for a while. Still love you all. Try to make sure you continue to be friends with them. And obviously, if your long-term ambitions were, for example, to be premier or prime minister of this country, you don't want to burn those bridges or have them all saying that bastard wasn't here when we needed him. That's not helpful. helpful yeah
Corey
37:03
but by and large i don't think you stepping away affects your caucus colleagues in in a super negative sense because you know in politics it's quite often people elbowing up to try to get the opportunities right it's a little different than a lot of other corporate environments where it's like well fucking thanks for leaving me with this project okay right so can i ask a follow
Zain
37:21
follow-up on that then okay this is gonna get this is great because i'm enjoying this like
Corey
37:26
like a lot yeah we're like this saint belgian section no this
Zain
37:29
this i fucking love this okay let's let me tell you this Carter. Yasser brings me into his office. He says, listen, Carter, I'm going to run for this, but here's the other thing I want. I want two things in my life. Thing number one I want is I want to be leader of the Ontario Liberal Party and I want to be premier. Now there's a chance I lose. So I'm going to keep this gig as MP of Ottawa Centre and come back. Thing number two I'd love in my life, Stephen Carter, is to be a federal minister.
Zain
37:53
How do I ensure if I lose this thing that I haven't actually shot myself in the foot for future progress and opportunities within this liberal caucus that I currently find a home in. Is that possible, Stephen Carter? I mean, bad news, you have. Ah, okay. So this is, well, I want to hear Carter's take. I heard Corey's. Carter, your job is to figure out how I don't, right? Corey says it's, Corey says, listen, there's no solutions for you. I'm not creative. I'm not that intelligent. But Stephen Carter, that's why I've come to you. You are creative. You are intelligent. You do see things when they don't exist. Carter, show us the pathway.
Zain
38:28
Show me the pathway for ensuring I can ensure a ministry if I don't become Ontario Liberal Leader.
Carter
38:33
Well, I mean, there's
Carter
38:35
there's a lot of conversations happening in Alberta about how to become a minister. And, you know, people think that they're going to become a minister because of their inherent talent within the skill set of politics, right? I really understand infrastructure, so I'm going to become the infrastructure minister. I'm an expert in health care, so I'm bound to be the next health minister. And that's not actually why you get appointed to a ministry. You get appointed to the ministry for so many different reasons. So if someone says, I really want to be a minister in
Carter
39:08
in the next government, then my question would be, okay,
Carter
39:11
okay, why weren't you a minister in this government?
Carter
39:14
Let's be honest about that. Was it because, you know, Catherine McKenna took the only Ottawa spot? Or was it because you don't have a particularly strong relationship with this leader? How will you, you know, can you, are you running for leader in the next leadership? Are you helping someone run for leader in the next leadership? and they will owe you and they will carry you up and put you into one of those star positions where, you know, you're the guy who or you're the woman who got the leader elected because you have all these great relationships across the country and you opened up all these doors for them on their leadership. So if you're going to run to be the leader of the Ontario Liberal Party, fail and then go back, then when you do your campaign to be the leader of the Ontario Liberal Party, You better have so many fucking good relationships, even with the person who beat you, that you still have value to the next potential leader or to the existing leader. But there has to be a value proposition that you bring that
Carter
40:19
that is in excess of, you
Carter
40:21
you know, the Catherine McKenna, who was the person who probably got the cabinet seat that you didn't get. So having that understanding of how cabinet members are actually put in place is really the first step. So build
Carter
40:35
build better relationships, be more vital in the next leadership is probably the best way for you to get an actual cabinet position.
Zain
40:45
Carter would have known that Yasser Nakhri took over for Catherine McKenna in the seat that she left vacant, but why would he know that? Why would Carter know
Carter
40:51
know that? Well, no, because, I mean, okay, but you
Carter
40:54
you asked about a
Carter
40:55
a cabinet position and hypothetical in the future.
Zain
40:59
But no, but you chose the worst example, though you had so many examples and you just chose the worst one though well
Zain
41:04
so here's the thing
Corey
41:10
people think they take an opportunity like this or even to be clear you're right
Corey
41:16
a lot of people often think even having their name float out there and and running is a way you quote build profile right and by building profile you'll become more valuable and that's how you get the job but you actually do need to diagnose whether that's your your fundamental challenge in getting into cabinet and Stephen's exactly right on that point it is true that high profile individuals are more likely to get into cabinet and so I can understand kind of that impulse but you have to understand that as you're building profile you are diminishing other things in a situation like this and uh you know uh my ability to rely upon you is also an important characteristic when I'm building a cabinet yeah and
Corey
41:51
and if you jump to another set like that or I think that you might next time this comes available again or whatnot I might be less less inclined to make you a cabinet minister so you do really need to assess the situation and again this goes back to like is this actually something you want to do or are you just trying to set up the next thing and you got to be honest with yourself about that because sometimes the this looks like it's an easy way up but it's it's a dangerous way up carter and i'll tell you something like as somebody who
Corey
42:17
who has actually had politicians come to me and say like i'm thinking of jumping to a different level i want to go to the next yes the question i always ask them it it does try to get at that. It's like the, why are you running? Why? Right? Because I've only ever heard you care about, you know, provincial issues before, or I've only ever heard you care about federal issues before or municipal issues. And now you seem to want to go to another level. And I'm always looking for them to show some enthusiasm for the core material, because it's also very dangerous to become a politician who only cares about politics. And I think politicians who are rooted in caring about something else are more successful politicians. So run federally because you care about the place of Canada in the world. Run provincially because you care about healthcare and education delivery. Run municipally because you care about the street lights that are out and crime and safety in downtown Calgary. But if you don't have something anchoring you to the job besides your ambition in the job, you are in a very dangerous place. And politicians need to acknowledge that about themselves. Build
Zain
43:14
on this, because I suspect many folks have come to you with a current gig, political gig, gig and saying, oh, this is open. This is open. I could go here. This is open. There's a by-election here. I could do it risk-free. I just need to raise a couple hundred grand. I put my name in. If I don't get it, I keep my current gig. What do you say to them when they approach you with that? Corey's talked about that more fundamental philosophical ask why you're doing it, show an interest in the material. What else are you asking them yourself when you've had this personal experience? Well,
Carter
43:43
Well, let's assume that they actually have identified that they want to do it for a different reason all right like you don't necessarily have you're sold on
Carter
43:51
right you don't necessarily have to run to win in every situation you can run and i've made this case to uh you know politicians who are running for leaderships in the past you don't need to win the leadership for that to be a vibe to for that to be a valuable or vital run you
Carter
44:09
you can come in second you can come and forth. You can be the kingmaker or the queenmaker. You can make, you know, there's a multitude of different paths where it could make sense. But whatever you're doing, there needs to be a very clear outcome. And for example, if you were going to run for the leadership of the Ontario Liberals, but you were very interested in being in cabinet next time, then you best be talking, you know, you best be setting as one of your campaign objectives to have the very best, most solid campaign infrastructure so that you know that campaign infrastructure can be used on on the next campaign right the the the development of of the next element of your campaign so these you can have multiple reasons or you know you can you can layer on different objectives but if
Carter
45:03
if you want to win if you want the job then
Carter
45:06
then you best be having a pretty strong strong interest in the job. And if you just want to build a network, then work for the other person who wants the job.
Carter
45:14
You can build a network by working for someone else. You don't need to run for the job yourself. There's a lot of different questions and a lot of different ways you can tackle this.
Zain
45:24
Yeah, both of your points, right? The kingmaker status or the deputizing of ensuring someone's victory gets you access and perhaps even de-risks you and shows your political strength in in a significant way to your current colleagues and perhaps even your future colleagues in a real smart way. Corey, you wanted to jump in on this. And I've got one final
Zain
45:42
final question, guys, that this is brought up. Go ahead, Corey. Well,
Corey
45:44
Well, let me underline that, though, because if let's just imagine in this scenario, you actually want to be in cabinet, right? And we're talking federal cabinet, right? We're using the Yasser situation. Federal cabinet. We're using Yasser as the example here. Let's say that you want to be in federal cabinet. Well, you're running for leadership at a different level and showing your chops as leader is maybe not even the skills I'm looking for, But you being a strong number two to a leader, being somebody who can deliver for a leader, build those networks, be the lieutenant for somebody else, that's maybe more transferable skills for that ministerial job that you're talking about down the road. So that's a really interesting point Stephen made, and I think it's a strong one. You don't always need to run. You can take advantage of the contest in different ways if you're trying to build your profile, show your worth, build your network. And
Zain
46:27
And kind of bringing up Yasser as an example, he kind of did that with trying to back the mayoral candidate in Ottawa that ultimately did win in that sense, even going against some of his colleagues in his party in that sense. So it's a good political point. Carter, I want to ask you finally about this. There are going to be politicians who say, oh, I'm scared to have that conversation with the leader. I'm scared to let down my colleagues. I'm going to take to it. Well, then
Corey
46:50
then don't run. And you
Zain
46:52
you know what they do, Carter? You know what they do? We've seen this one too many times. Here we go, Corey. Corey,
Zain
46:57
and we've done this as a joke too. They do the draft myself for this position. How many fucking times have we... Can we spend a few minutes on the draft X for Y model? Where the fuck did this come from? Is it always AstroTurf bullshit your own team is doing, or is it actually genuine? We've made fun of it on the show as we've drafted me for a bunch of bullshit. But Carter, talk to me about this because where does this come? Where's the the genesis of this does it hold any strategic value the draft whatever draft yasser for ontario liberal leader and nine likes on the facebook page i'm i'm i'm razzing him that's not how many it has i don't even know if he's got that page but how many times have we seen this as as a tactic so can we talk about this tactic and if it holds any value part of person then cory well
Zain
47:40
let me go first
Corey
47:41
first because uh i don't i don't want
Zain
47:43
want to let me
Zain
47:43
me actually before you go first let me go first april 2nd live show the strategist.ca it nothing will appear that you want to do there okay you You will go to the strategist.ca, you will pay about the same as to what it costs to attend our show, but you will end on a tarmac for an extended period of time with no show. So where you want to be is strategistlive.ca, the strategistlive.com or strategistlive.com. That is exactly where you need to go. Corey, back to you.
Corey
48:07
Yeah, this is the original campaigning, Zane, is the point I wanted to make. So like we talked about, where did this come from? Another question might be, where did it come from that people started lobbying for themselves? Because that was the unusual thing. It was considered unbecoming for most of democracy to openly campaign yourself for a job. So it was draft campaigns. It was other people saying George
Corey
48:27
George Washington would be a great president. Thomas Jefferson would be a great president, right? Random person in Athens would be really good at that role. And that is where, you know, democracy sort of began because it was considered almost braggadocious and unbecoming to say I'm the person for this job. Sure, sure,
Corey
48:43
Yeah. So the draft campaign is the original campaign is the point that I wanted to put on the table. Yeah.
Zain
48:47
Yeah. Has it bastardized to something that is now where we expect or even want our leaders to own the positions that they want, to show us the competencies that they have, to really not be pulled to the dance, but say, fucking, I'm here to dance? Has the draft mantra and model that we've seen in modern days of Facebook pages and mini websites and small parades of your supporters, has it lost its strategic and even tactical value, Carter? No,
Carter
49:17
No, I don't think so at all. I think that the draft campaign still has... I didn't know where
Corey
49:20
where I thought you'd be going. No, I think it still has... That's because you're not listening to recent podcasts. Yeah,
Carter
49:24
I mean, if you'd listened to a rather podcast, you'd know all these answers. But there's a thing with the draft campaign that it still does. It's still, you know, the draft campaign allows you to have a list of 600 people that you can put into a room when you actually launch. You know how hard it is? I mean, many politicians have lists, but with the privacy laws and things like that now it's harder and harder to access those lists it's harder to get the lists out you talk about jumping from the political from the from the provincial party I'll tell you something provincial parties lock down their databases pretty quick when they find out you're going for a different level you're not going to have the same access to the database because they don't want you accessing their data to drag out 600 people for for your launch so So, you
Carter
50:11
know, the draft campaign gives you a brand new set of data. You've got the people that you want, that you need in order to have
Carter
50:18
have an actual successful launch. And that type of stuff does matter. And, yeah, I mean, I am kind of romantically connected still to the idea that you shouldn't be tooting your own horn when you want to run for office, that, you know, you should be approached. You know, people, your community should come to you and say, you know, I really, you know, Corey might experience this sometime in his life, Zane, you and I highly likely not to. But, you know, yeah, we think that you're important. And we think that you you serve our community. Well, we think that you should be our, our, our leader, or our hero. or Corey sorry
Carter
51:00
did a quick evaluation of
Carter
51:07
the three of us
Corey
51:07
us for the Alberta party leadership it's going to be a knockdown
Corey
51:10
it's going to be great the
Zain
51:11
most action they've had in a long time
Carter
51:13
time yeah well there
Carter
51:14
there you go um
Carter
51:16
anyways my point is this the the the campaign is not dead that campaign may have suffered a near lethal blow due to the Mike Schreiner draft for the Ontario leadership but uh it's still around carter
Zain
51:29
carter okay so i appreciate this but cory this draft campaign does not solve your or does it solve your issues with colleagues and leader and and i mean only if you have the
Zain
51:43
the stupidest colleagues and
Corey
51:46
stupidest leader and in which case like you should just leave you should go yeah no it doesn't i mean i think in fact even if there were like imagine there was a true draft campaign i i gotta tell you like if i was somebody who was trying to position myself for a cabinet ministry and i was an mpe and a draft campaign actually came out of nowhere that i had nothing to do with i would be like in the leader's office saying this wasn't me i'm not interested immediately anyone right because well
Corey
52:15
well because everybody would not and so like you'd have have to immediately disavow it in the firmest terms so like if you think it has an offensive weapon
Zain
52:23
weapon is actually kind of funny against like oh
Corey
52:25
oh that would be your colleagues or others it's
Corey
52:27
actually a funny idea like you just want to rat fuck a colleague so you do a draft campaign and make it look like they're trying to draft
Corey
52:34
we need to do this
Corey
52:34
carter is mentally we need
Corey
52:36
need to do this is
Carter
52:36
is the best idea ever okay thank you guys continue
Corey
52:40
continue with your thought corey you're going to finish this off here so because no and nobody believes a draft campaign is entirely entirely innocent anymore and so i think if you like you just got to be honest with these people right hey i'm thinking about it hey some people have talked to me about it i've talked to some people about it i'm thinking about it i wanted to let you know if it gets more serious than me thinking about it i'll talk to you again is there anything you want to talk to me about right now before i go what
Carter
53:03
what advice would you give me this particular moment yeah
Corey
53:06
yeah i love that frame because it's basically still saying i'm the one with agency here what advice do you give me like i'm I'm doing this or
Carter
53:13
or my boss right
Carter
53:16
I'm doing this or
Carter
53:18
What advice do you get? Right.
Zain
53:20
I think that idea of like, I mean, that's a corporate tactic too, right. Or an interest, a life tactic. How many, how many people can you make stakeholders in your success? Right. And, and in your, in your decision, so to speak, I think it's very smart life advice by, by Corey Carter. Anything to finish this off on this extended segment of quiet, quitting political politicians and political leaders, or seeking new opportunities?
Carter
53:44
No, Zane, I think we did far more than I expected that we would actually do.
Zain
53:49
there you go. You and I both.
Corey
53:49
Now, I hope our listeners will seek new opportunities on April 2nd, April 2nd at the Grand Theatre, downtown Calgary. Tickets are available, not yet, but soon, for $30 a pop. Visit patreon.com
Corey
54:01
.com slash the strategists. Strategists pop. The
Corey
54:05
strategists... This is why Zane does these
Corey
54:06
these things. You know what? I'm actually going to backtrack. I've gone in too deep. April 2nd,
Zain
54:09
2nd, the strategistlive.ca. When you will go there, okay, at strategistlive.ca, on April 2nd, there's going to be a show. But when you go to thestrategistlive.ca, okay, thestrategistlive.ca, that's where you want to go, okay? That is where you want to go because what you can do is April 2nd on
Zain
54:30
the strategy. Well, if
Corey
54:30
if you don't live
Corey
54:31
Calgary. Yeah, you could actually go. You're definitely going to want to go to thestrategistlive.ca first.
Corey
54:36
Right? What you do, you select
Zain
54:37
select round trip, and
Zain
54:39
and then you select origin, okay? You select where you want to go at TheStrategistLive.ca. That is going to provide you some of the most quality time with your family in sets of threes at a local airport near you. You're going to be able to sit with your son and daughter-in-law for several hours looking in the same direction. You have an awkward conversation you want to have with your daughter and that son-in-law that she has now. Don't worry. Go to TheStrategistLive.ca. over there you'll book a ticket it'll tell you it's taking you somewhere it won't you're going to stay where you are okay you're going to go together stay where you are and then you're going to sit there for several hours all looking in the same direction it'll provide the perfect opportunity for you to have that tough or difficult conversation uh with uh with that family member uh or with that uh that family member coming into your family the strategist live uh.ca for that Now,
Zain
55:36
Now, if you want to attend a show at the Grand Theater with 400 other people looking in the same direction at Stephen Carter and Corey Hogan, who will be presenting a winning strategy, the UCP and NDP, well, that is at thestrategist.com, strategistlive.com, strategistlive.ca, and thestrategistlive.com. Okay, I think I cleared that up. Corey, did I clear that shit up? I think I did. I'm so confused. Yeah,
Corey
56:00
Yeah, I think you did. And, you know, at TheStrategistLive.ca, you can purchase a ticket from Abbotsford to Calgary for as little as $39 on April 1st.
Carter
56:10
Wow, that's unbelievable. I
Zain
56:12
I might do that in addition to going to TheStrategistLive.com and purchasing a ticket at the Grand Theater. I might do both because I want to hedge my bets. It's pretty good. Yeah,
Zain
56:22
Yeah, that's fair. Let's
Zain
56:23
Let's move on to
Zain
56:24
final segment. Stephen Carter, our over, under, and our lightning round. Steven Carter, which of the following three domains can people pick up a ticket for the live show on April 2nd? Is it, Steven Carter, thestrategistlive.ca? Is it the strategistlive.com? Is it strategistlive.com or strategistlive.ca? Which one of those four, I should say? The
Corey
56:49
that is also correct, Steven Carter.
Zain
56:51
Carter. Okay. Correct. So what- No,
Corey
56:52
No, I mean, that one was not correct, actually. That one wasn't correct? But that's okay. Corey,
Zain
56:55
Corey, which one is it? Corey, which one is it?
Corey
56:58
don't know. Just hit us up on Twitter, I guess. Maybe
Zain
57:00
Maybe just DM us. Just going to all four and then purchasing at none of them and then hitting Corey up on Twitter. Do that. Corey, second question. I have to ask it to you in this way. Fine, fabulous, or fucked? How fucked, fine, or fabulous this is for Justin Trudeau, the way the call for an inquiry has been going on the foreign interference on our elections. Trudeau has slapped down questions about it in an inquiry. uh he said it's not going to happen opposition mps have voted for for for an inquiry cory
Zain
57:31
cory how's it going is this fine justin trudeau you can ride this out is this fabulous i don't think so or is this actually kind of fucked and we might be in like defining
Zain
57:39
defining territory for trudeau's reign sort of thing like tell me where your head's at on this so
Corey
57:44
so my my gut says he's in a lot of trouble on this particular matter not just because of the current state of affairs which is troubling right i will will say and you know i'm hoping we get to talk about this maybe next show yeah this will be
Corey
57:55
be a lot of because this is this is a big issue i think in this country but it is also because he's got now um a field of bear traps all around him and anything that comes up that in any way shape or form touches on china's influence in canada which by the way china is one of the most powerful countries in the world it's going to come up a fucking lot now this is all going to be put through this lens this is very problematic it's very problematic for him personally it's problematic It's problematic for the Liberal Party of Canada. It's problematic for us as Canadians. And I think that the thing that he needed to do, even though it was perhaps locally not advantageous for him or his party, was to call this inquiry because this is just going to be a cloud that grows. It's like smog with no wind, right? It's just going to float there. And yeah, I don't know what he's thinking on this one. I understand the idea that you don't want to jeopardize people's faith in elections. But when there are legitimate questions, people need legitimate answers. And there are legitimate questions here. Carter,
Zain
58:52
Carter, he's fighting against the public inquiry. He's pushing back against it. But before I ask you whether that's an inevitability that will enter into public inquiry territory, I'll do that next. Fine, fabulous or fucked, his current state right now, state of affairs, if you're analyzing, is it fine or is it fucked? I'm going to take fabulous out of the equation. What is it? It's
Carter
59:09
It's pretty fucked. I mean, he's got Jerry Butts saying that there should be an inquiry. He's got the head of the conservative
Carter
59:16
conservative campaign saying that there shouldn't be an inquiry. I mean, you don't know who's on your side and who's not on your side on this. I'm sure there's a very good reason to not have an inquiry from a bureaucratic point of view. I'm sure there's ongoing investigations by CSIS. I'm sure there's lots of foreign intelligence involvement and back and forth with the diplomacy side as well. But I think at this point it is becoming an electoral issue. And electoral issues are never solved by bureaucracy. Electoral issues are solved by politics. And that means he's going to have to bite the bullet and likely do some sort of a public inquiry, which does not, by the way, mean a fulsome wholesale
Carter
59:58
wholesale evaluation of the situation. Public
Carter
1:00:01
Public inquiries can be limited in their scope.
Carter
1:00:04
And maybe that's what he needs to do in order to meet all the expectations of this particular nightmare
Carter
1:00:12
nightmare that I'm sure he's going through.
Zain
1:00:16
Sure. Corey Carter's done the two in one. So I'm going to go to you for this next question, which is, you know, yes or no, Justin Trudeau has no choice but to call a public inquiry of some shape or form.
Corey
1:00:26
So I think that's true. And maybe not immediately, but I feel down the road, if he doesn't, he's going to deeply regret it. If I were him, I
Corey
1:00:35
I would have taken different courses of action in the past week or two. But
Corey
1:00:38
But here he is now. And the course of action, I would suggest, is actually trying to, as much as I agree with Steve, and I agree with Steve, and it's become a political issue, you just need to look at polling the percent of conservatives who now think this election was illegitimate. Like 40s, in the 40s, I believe.
Corey
1:00:52
Yeah, in the 40s, one poll, but still, like, out of nowhere.
Corey
1:00:57
If I were Justin Trudeau, I would call Pierre Poliev, I would ask for a meeting, I would say, Pierre, I am going to call the inquiry you've been calling for.
Corey
1:01:06
I need you to know this is serious as cancer, right? And I use the word cancer intentionally here Because this could really damage both my party, your party, and more importantly, this country, if this is handled in a way that is full of grandstanding and rhetoric. My commitment to you is I will be as open and transparent as I possibly can, well beyond the normal boundaries here.
Corey
1:01:25
I'm looking for you to say you're going to put your country first and you're going to treat this seriously and not as a political opportunity. And if Pierre can't do that, that's fine. Because now you've had a meeting that allows you to have a very different kind of political communication strategy down the road. but i would mean it if i was the prime minister and i would say we've got to take politics out of this i
Zain
1:01:45
i want to expand on this a bit more when we talk about it on sunday and we certainly will spend a lot of time on this around the strategy for trudeau and how to navigate the next steps here and the strategy for polyev right and and sing right like there's political points to be made do you make them do you not carter i'll need your raw political calculus brain on on sunday but steven carter i want to end with this question maybe a bit of a preview to sunday as well Well, Carter,
Zain
1:02:06
Carter, yes or no, if we head into an inquiry, what both of you have said is kind of inevitability. I'll put words in your mouth, but some way it may happen.
Corey
1:02:14
Justin Trudeau have to call an election before the report comes in, before the
Zain
1:02:17
the inquiry starts? Does Justin Trudeau have to call an election? Should he call an election? We'll end with this, and we'll pick it up on Sunday. I
Carter
1:02:24
I think that he shouldn't call an election until the inquiry is in.
Carter
1:02:29
Until we understand what we're dealing with, with foreign interference, it would probably to be um probably be you
Carter
1:02:36
know malpractice political malpractice to put the country into another election without understanding the interference it's asking asking
Zain
1:02:42
asking the same question a different way cory does this limit his range of motion to call an election and what if we we have a government that gets defeated like we entered some interesting territory which we can pick up we'll end with your thoughts on this we'll pick it all up again
Corey
1:02:57
yeah like i think every party should tread carefully as this is still a lingering issue out there. And it is bigger than China. You know, there's questions about Russia. Frankly, there's questions about the United States and the influence that's coming up here. But it's not just that it'd be political malpractice to call an election. It would be democratic malpractice because there would be so many questions about the outcome, regardless of what the outcome was, that I think we would be setting ourselves on a very bad path. And we need an inquiry to resolve this relatively promptly. We need solutions to to come out of that that are embraced by all parties. And we need to be able to turn the page because it all starts with integrity of elections and people's confidence in the integrity of elections. And you can argue, and I'm sure in an inquiry, there will be arguments on both sides as to whether this affected the integrity of the last election.
Corey
1:03:45
There's no dispute in my mind, the poll we just talked about, that it has affected perceptions of integrity of the election. And that's very dangerous. And the trust
Zain
1:03:53
trust in it. We're going to leave that episode here. That's episode 1040 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you next time. But we'll also see you on April 2nd at the Grand Theater. Now, for the way you get to the Grand Theater, Stephen Carter, pull up the Google Map directions and enter the addresses of every one of our Patreon subscribers. Carter will actually walk
Corey
1:04:15
walk you individually with directions.