Episode 1003: Mr. Brightside

Zain 0:01

This is the Strategist episode 1003. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, happy Monday.

Zain 0:08

Monday. It is not Sunday. It is Monday. I asked for a Queen's Courtesy to record on a Monday because, of course, I wanted to make the entire show about the Queen. And now I'm not going to because I have that sort of control. Carter, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:23

I'm in my campaign office working on my phone to do this podcast because my computer just fucking died.

Zain 0:30

wait now this is an audio medium and cory's just taking off his uh i don't know what's going on is that the one with the

Corey 0:37

patterns is that the one with the patterns well it it's my exact style zayn no no

Corey 0:43

just my style yeah

Zain 0:43

yeah it's dead flashes dead flashes man dead flashes

Zain 0:48

carter are you know what's going on oh my god oh my god carter oh my god oh my god i am like i am

Zain 0:55

you know okay cory can i can i just put a pin i'm gonna i'm gonna address this in a second it uh actually but carter you're out on this um do

Zain 1:03

do you know where i was trying to find do you know where i was trying to find the queen's funeral today on

Zain 1:07

on corncob tv on corncob tv cory because

Zain 1:12

corncob tv carter has the number one show cough and flop you

Zain 1:16

you may have heard that's a poll

Corey 1:17

poll from i think you should leave no

Zain 1:19

yeah i've heard that yeah as as is cory's shirt i there's maybe four four people who are losing their minds right now, like myself. And

Zain 1:28

And the amount of delight and pure joy that I have looking at Corey's shirt. Can you post this as like the cover art for this episode? Yeah, please

Zain 1:34

do. Please post this for the four other people who have seen the best sketch comedy show since Chappelle's show on Netflix.

Zain 1:43

Amazing. It's amazing, Carter. You

Zain 1:45

You seem frustrated that you're out of the loop.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

I'm frustrated in general. Did I mention that my computer stopped working?

Zain 1:52

I tell you something? thing um cory i usually don't do this i'm gonna i'm gonna promo i shouldn't even say promo i'm gonna just pump up uh the patreon because i think last episode was actually a legit good episode hearing a lot of good feedback we did a deep dive into is

Zain 2:07

is political marketing broken we use three examples of texting email uh oh twitter graphics to kind of talk about is political marketing as we know it in the canadian context is it broken what the fuck is going on with all this you know um just aggressive political marketing um but cory i think as a direct result uh we're seeing uh samula uh enter the strategist cash reserves because of the store because many phrases have come out of our recent episodes that have created by result some some excellent merch

Corey 2:41

merch of course so many merch opportunities so those who don't know you go to the strategist.ca there are consumables there are purchasables you can buy shirts you can buy hats we um we hit a new sales record for uh you know make jeb president again hats yeah

SPEAKER_00 2:58

those are good those are good we've

Corey 3:00

we've sold infinitely more of those as of today than we had yesterday um yeah that's been up for a few months so you want to give us

Zain 3:06

us the wrong number on that

Corey 3:07

that you know what uh i'm not good at math in that sense i just can tell

Corey 3:11

you percent wise infinitely more than days before uh

Corey 3:14

uh but you know carter carter said a few quotable things you know the first lie is the lie we tell ourselves geez that that's

Zain 3:24

didn't know where you were going you could have gone with any stuff

Corey 3:35

you always win until you lose yeah for

Corey 3:39

i mean i can only imagine the kind of beverage containers you could put on that um and we always get requests for all problems manifest as communications problems. That's a lot of mine too. So we started thinking what other merch might be available for everybody here. So

Corey 3:53

So we didn't do any of those things and instead we released a shirt that says Corn Dog Archduke.

Zain 3:59

Can you, first of all, explain the genesis and then I need you to explain the imagery of the two corn dogs in the

Corey 4:08

won't do either of those things, eh? I can't do either, but if you're a patron, you'll get it. You'll know. Okay,

Zain 4:14

Okay, well, fine. Fuck it, Carter. What

Zain 4:16

What people need in their lives are more pillows. Carter, how is your strategist pillow treating you? As the only one of the three of us who purchased one of those.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

How's your pillow going? Is it creeping people out? It

SPEAKER_00 4:26

It does creep people out. It's

SPEAKER_00 4:29

It migrated from my bedroom to the living room. It was inappropriate in the bedroom. It did not, you

SPEAKER_00 4:35

you know. Are you one of those guys who, like, sleeps

Corey 4:37

sleeps with it between your thighs? Or, like, what's, I want to understand exactly

SPEAKER_00 4:41

exactly where my face and

Corey 4:43

and Zane's face have been. i just

SPEAKER_00 4:44

just hold it close to my belly so i can feel love you

SPEAKER_00 4:47

you know is that is that wrong it

Zain 4:52

that's good you know what's it's it's better than than having a pillow that says the first lie you tell what's what is it cory what's the first the first lie we tell ourselves

Corey 5:01

ourselves yeah i don't

SPEAKER_00 5:02

don't want that i don't want i

Zain 5:03

i don't want that between your thighs i don't want that between your thighs okay

SPEAKER_00 5:07

okay thank you cory for the patreon update for

Zain 5:09

for for the Dan Flashes

Zain 5:10

Flashes shirt, for all of it. Let's move it on to our first segment, our first segment, easy come, easy go. Corey Hogan, the

Zain 5:19

the Prime Minister, is in London. He's, of course, there with the Canadian delegation. But

Zain 5:24

But the Prime Minister is doing more than attending the Queen's funeral today, which was available on all major networks except Corn Cobb TV. Yes, because days before... Someone's laughing hysterically at that. You know what? Yeah,

Zain 5:36

Yeah, no, they are, Carter. They are. No. Corn Cobb TV. Just look it up.

Zain 5:41

he was in London with the Canadian contingent. But days before the funeral, a video has sparked a bit of a social media debate. In the video, Trudeau can be seen singing the Queen song, Bohemian Rhapsody. Corey, can you give us a little bit of that sweet, sweet Freddie Mercury, Justin Trudeau audio? Oh, yeah. Lay it on us.

Zain 6:22

yeah lay it on this carter can

SPEAKER_00 6:23

can i tell you what's what's really upset me yo

Zain 6:25

yo what's upsetting you the

SPEAKER_00 6:27

the over articulation of easy come easy go yeah

Zain 6:30

yeah okay you're you're constant criticism of trudeau yeah okay i want to address this i want to address this in three three different domains the first one is the performance we have to talk about the performance carter's already started the second one is is this scandal worthy because carter this is already sparking a bit of of course a debate online right a little social media debate saying how dare he uh you know well-known commentators like andrew coin being like and i'm paraphrasing what the actual fuck this guy's an embarrassment to our country i don't think i'm that far off from what coin said that's the second thing i want to talk about the third thing carter i want to talk about which will be the the broader topic here is authenticity in politics because to many this should have been a home run it wasn't scripted he didn't he didn't stage it this wasn't performative why didn't this hit the authenticity sort of check box that we talk about that's so vital but before all of that steven carter continue your thoughts on the performance because that's where we're starting the over articulation you didn't like what did you like uh

SPEAKER_00 7:27

uh well i didn't like the song choice i didn't like the over articulation i didn't like the key uh

SPEAKER_00 7:33

uh i didn't like his range um

SPEAKER_00 7:36

but i did like that it was you know kind of real when i say kind of real i still wonder whether trudeau has an authentic bone in his body and and if he does why are you jumping to the why are you

Zain 7:47

you jumping to the third thing why you just why don't you just stay on track can you not just stay on track that's

SPEAKER_00 7:52

of the performance for me because

SPEAKER_00 7:53

because the over the the over-articulation and the, and you

SPEAKER_00 7:56

you know, like if you, if we'd gone karaoke, first of all, we would have chosen Mr. Brightside.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

We would have chosen Mr. Brightside. Cause everybody would have chosen

Zain 8:05

chosen Frank Sinatra, New York, New York. We know that because we've done this with Corey and it is excruciating, but yes, go ahead. Why would we have chosen Mr. Brightside? Tell me about what, what, what Mr. Brightside gives you.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Mr. Brightside gives you a repeatable verse. because the killers are barely singing

Corey 8:24

just a monotonous like drone one

SPEAKER_00 8:28

easy easy you know point of view super deep easy and

SPEAKER_00 8:32

that's what we're after we're after one thing

SPEAKER_00 8:36

i'm going to you tell me about

Zain 8:37

about the performance i'm just moving past carter here the performance right this who cares what the context was we'll get into that the performance of this guy who happens to be our prime minister bohemian rhapsody queen

Corey 8:53

uh points for feeling himself you know if if music is about confidence justin trudeau is uh right he

Corey 9:01

definitely uh was was carrying a bit of swagger in there uh his tone was a little off but look i'm not in a position to throw stones on these things you've heard my new york new york yeah that's right uh and i also have no real i

Corey 9:15

have no ability to walk by a piano that's playing Bohemian Rhapsody without singing

Corey 9:20

singing along. This is anybody who was born of a certain age, Wayne's World came out. You remember that?

Zain 9:25

Yeah, in a certain pigmentation. Yeah, yeah, totally. It's a thing for you guys. It's definitely a thing. I'm the same with any song from the film K3G, which I know, Corey, you know about. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's a great, great film. Corey, do you want to render one of the classic ballads

Zain 9:41

ballads from the movie? Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah, go ahead, Corey. yeah so as a white guy standard issue white guy you can't go past the piano without without sure and he gave

Corey 9:51

gave a standard issue white guy performance and i can't fault him too badly for that uh there's a reason why we don't normally record karaoke it's because everybody looks like that yeah

Zain 10:01

yeah i think you look like something else you don't

Corey 10:03

don't you look like that you sound like that you look like that you act like that and that's the energy you're bringing towards things so um it's okay if you're in the the room if you're outside of the room if you're sort of isolated by a screen that's

Corey 10:14

that's what it feels like now

Corey 10:16

now zane to your second question um when i'm

Zain 10:20

i'm getting to the second question i've now added question 1a which is freddie mercury wasn't a standard issue white guy is

Zain 10:27

is this appropriation got to discuss the hard conversations

SPEAKER_00 10:31

is this cultural appropriation for all you whites

Zain 10:35

who've have been singing queen for years i feel like i feel like we're

Corey 10:39

we're owed something i feel like our people are owed something it's a rendition of queen's bohemian rhapsody and that's what the prime minister was trying to give you're

SPEAKER_00 10:47

you're welcome i think is what the answer is you

Corey 10:50

jesus carter no no man no

Corey 10:53

no we're not gonna go with that one um

Zain 10:55

what's the underlying philosophy there carter just talk to me about it what does your welcome mean just explain

Zain 11:00

explain it carter okay

Zain 11:03

okay great cory let's just get on to the second point yeah let's talk about the second point

Corey 11:06

point thanks a lot the

Zain 11:08

point is scandal worthy

Zain 11:09

yeah is this a scandal is

Zain 11:10

is this a scandal and

Zain 11:12

and i just added the andrew coin thing there's much debate on this right of course the partisan side is on it but the commentating class is on this too being like this is disrespectful how dare you do this this is crazy cory jump talk to me about the scandal worthiness yeah

Corey 11:24

yeah i mean i'm absolutely of two minds about this i am i am torn because on one hand it's not like he was singing only the good die young or something right he just

Corey 11:33

was singing a karaoke song with a member of the canadian delegation um you

Corey 11:39

you know at late at night a couple of nights before they were in london the song itself is a little bit mournful it's not even that far off i think more his tone and the way he carried himself in combination of that was the problem in a funny way i think would we have cared if he was like a tear was running down his cheek and he was wearing a black suit and an armband i think maybe

Corey 11:59

maybe for different reasons but we wouldn't think that he was being you

Corey 12:02

kosher or you know something

Corey 12:07

is this a big deal but on the other hand is it too much to ask that when you go to a funeral and you are representing an entire nation you keep it buttoned up for three days that's all i'm asking three days and

Corey 12:20

and uh and i keep it buttoned up but only

Corey 12:22

Only where Dan flashes. Yes, go ahead. I do think it

Corey 12:25

it was not wise. And it, you know, like I said, not a position to throw stones. Can't walk by a piano that's playing that. But he was the prime minister who should have known better.

Zain 12:35

Carter, are you of two minds? And a second question, like, does it matter that it was a song by Queen? Like, is this kind of like in that sense, like, is there a connection point to what he's there for the activity he's there for? Like, I suspect there's a bit of a backstory here, but talk to me. Is this scandal worthy? And I put scandal in quotes because I think many people are realizing that if it is indeed scandal worthy, it's not long term scandal worthy. It's not We Charity. It's not SNC Laughlin. It's probably another proof point of the prime minister's judgment, perhaps tied to foreign trips, as we've seen before. But Carter, scandal worthy in your mind? What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 13:13

No, not at all scandal worthy. First of all, the Queen tie in is hilarious. i

SPEAKER_00 13:17

mean you can't have freddie mercury as a gay icon and that

SPEAKER_00 13:21

that he's like paying a lounge to the queen it

SPEAKER_00 13:23

it was it was him you

SPEAKER_00 13:26

he's the gay icon in this particular scenario naming

SPEAKER_00 13:29

naming the band queen which is fantastic it was a great thing it's not about the queen in

SPEAKER_00 13:33

in my mind but maybe it's the double entendre but it doesn't it

SPEAKER_00 13:36

it does not matter at all this is not scandal this

SPEAKER_00 13:40

this is a prime minister part of

SPEAKER_00 13:42

of the point of bringing everybody together at a funeral is to to bring everybody together you

SPEAKER_00 13:47

you you you mourn you you take your time you you spend time together but you're not forbidden from laughing you're not forbidden from having a good time because that's part of the mourning process too that's

SPEAKER_00 13:57

that's part of the process of under you know of living and reliving and connecting with others and bringing

SPEAKER_00 14:02

bringing people together and yeah

SPEAKER_00 14:05

know i mean first of all if this had been staged and filmed as an a you know official thing um

SPEAKER_00 14:11

um then yeah this would would be too much but it's like someone with their fucking iphone taping

SPEAKER_00 14:15

taping the uh the prime minister in a private moment doing a private thing i

SPEAKER_00 14:19

i think this is absolutely not a scandal uh those who jumped on it like it is a scandal are embarrassing themselves in my mind go

Zain 14:28

go ahead jump on this this concept of like the mourning process the joy etc i think there's there's there is merit in what carter's saying i think others have kind of stated that as well but on the merits of this particular piece jump in on that yeah

Corey 14:39

yeah sure i mean and in in the greatest of irish catholic traditions the wake is often a time where you're singing in a bar and telling stories about the person you knew and there's laughter and there's tears and there's all of that that comes out with it i

Corey 14:54

don't think that's what that was though steven like i don't think they were all sitting around being like oh the queen what a grand old lady and do you remember the time we went wakeboarding with her right i guess

Zain 15:04

guess you don't actually

Zain 15:05

don't think so cory like to me no to me that's how i kind of read the moment in a sense like it was still a connective point to why they were there so maybe i'm just being too charitable and i like the pm in that sense i love

Corey 15:18

love this point i love this point of yours because we are at a moment where people are reading into what's around it and the way they're reacting is entirely

Corey 15:26

based not what they saw on tape but what they think was outside of that tape right

Corey 15:32

you think oh hey like he's just hanging out and having a good time and he couldn't keep it together and act serious or maybe if you're steven and you think yeah

Corey 15:40

yeah they were sitting around and you know this is this is the mourning process the mourning process isn't people don't mourn the way you want them to mourn right and uh you're allowed to act in a lot of different fashions and why are we being so uh you know um prescriptive

Corey 15:54

prescriptive as to how you're supposed to act at moments like this i get all of that but i think it speaks to a broader challenge the prime minister has and we've talked about this on this show before but there's

Corey 16:04

there's this adage right if uh if

Corey 16:07

if you don't like somebody the way they hold their fork will irritate you and if you do they can drop a plate of food in your lap and you won't care and

Corey 16:14

and this is the absolute political brochure test right if you don't like the prime minister easy

Corey 16:20

easy to not like them because of this clip if you do like the prime minister easy to like him because of this and perhaps and perhaps even create justifications

Corey 16:28

around it oh yeah on

Zain 16:29

on either side in creating backstory and

Zain 16:31

and because it is conditions

Corey 16:33

conditions even carter sort of conceded this seems like it's a somewhat authentic moment you know it's an inauthentic man in an authentic moment but even

Corey 16:41

even car i want

Zain 16:41

want to talk about this moment carter because i i think i think us talking about it for for 40 minutes uh is exactly what we

SPEAKER_00 16:48

we need to do but

Zain 16:49

but i i think i think using it as a jumping off point around a broader conversation about why this moment didn't just hit a home run off and authenticity is really important but before i get there very quickly to both of you carter you don't think this is a scandal but is

Zain 17:04

political attack worthy by

Zain 17:06

by pierre by the opposition by others and if so how so you don't think it's a scandal but there's clearly like meat on the bone there's clearly momentum leaning into it We often talk about, you know, in politics, you can try to generate a story or if one's lying out there, you lean into it and you kind of mold it into your narrative. Is there something that you, if you were advising Pierre, say, pick this up and run with it and here's what you should do? And if so, what?

SPEAKER_00 17:33

I mean, Pierre Polyev is going to be the type of guy who would

SPEAKER_00 17:36

would criticize the prime minister if he farts in public. And if he doesn't fart in public, he'll criticize the prime minister for not being like the average man. That's just who he is, right? Right. Can we just run

Zain 17:46

run the tape back on that? So just so Corey could get it for another pillow, just for another pillow. So hold on.

Zain 17:54

Criticized for not farting like a like a normal book. I just want to make sure if he

SPEAKER_00 17:58

he farts, he's going to be in trouble. If he doesn't fart, he's going to be in trouble. That's that Pierre Polyev doesn't care what the prime minister does. Pierre Polyev is going to attack him.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

And, you know, if if he if he, you

SPEAKER_00 18:11

you know, hadn't sung this,

SPEAKER_00 18:13

this, this, you know, But if it came out that the rest of the Canadian delegation had done it, he'd

SPEAKER_00 18:17

he'd have been attacked for being too aloof.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

You know, Pierre Polyev is going to attack. That's all he knows how to do.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

And I think that there's a school of thought that thinks that maybe,

SPEAKER_00 18:31

you know, he's going to get punch drunk, and

SPEAKER_00 18:33

and he's going to just keep going after the prime minister and Canadian school in some fashion, tire of it. Except what Corey said is exactly true, and it always pains me to say that. But what

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Corey said is if you hate the guy, you hate the guy and everything he does is going to annoy you. And

SPEAKER_00 18:47

And I think that that is what Pierre knows. Pierre

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Pierre knows that there's a sizable percentage of the population who hate this guy.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

And he is going to exploit that in every way that he can to

SPEAKER_00 18:59

that he gets increased

SPEAKER_00 19:01

increased fundraising, he gets increased attention, he gets shares on the internet. He cares about those things and

SPEAKER_00 19:08

he will get them if he attacks the prime minister on whatever the prime minister does. It does not matter at all what the alleged sin is. And I think that that's very evident in this with this particular, quote unquote, sin.

Zain 19:23

Pierre Polyev hit the prime minister

Corey 19:26

I don't I don't think there's much reason to. If anything, it just becomes another flip aside about how he embarrassed the country on a journey. right i wouldn't

Corey 19:36

wouldn't make it like a showpiece there's a lot of other things you can do but why

Corey 19:40

why not have the andrew coins of the world carry

Corey 19:43

carry your water have

Corey 19:44

have the andrew coins of the world carry your water yeah

SPEAKER_00 19:48

it's just it's so beneath everybody final

Zain 19:51

final question on the specifics here before i expand to the broader point carter the

Zain 19:55

the pmo just confirmed of its existence confirmed that it was the the prime minister confirmed actually rectified some of the the dates and said you know know wasn't the day before but that's all they did yep

Zain 20:06

yep should they have done more carter was that the right communication should they have let's go back to some classic stephen carterism should they have doubled down should they have you know spun it and kind of talked about it as a positive thing should they have talked about the process of mourning perhaps even anticipating some political attacks or was verification simply enough i'm kind of curious from your political instinct here if If you know the proclivity of your political opponents, in certain cases, the international media and how they might try to shape this. Should you have done more than just rectify it and confirm its authenticity and validity as being the prime minister? What do you think, Carter, from your strategy brain?

SPEAKER_00 20:47

I'm not sure this is the time to do it, but there is this this government has been very weak on the attack, the attacker model.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

this may not be the time. I think that this time they could very easily just walk away from it and just let me be done with it.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

It's a stupid thing. I don't think most people will care about it in two days. So this probably isn't the time. But at

SPEAKER_00 21:11

at some other points, I would like to see them really unleash a good attack the attacker.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

I think that it's going to be required at some point when you're dealing with Pierre Poglia. Carter, can you clarify?

Zain 21:21

clarify? What do you mean by, like, attack the attacker? Like, in this case, you don't mean the person who posted this, just so I'm and the audience is totally clear. No,

SPEAKER_00 21:28

No, go after Coyne. If this was the case, you're going to go after coin or whoever's

SPEAKER_00 21:33

whoever's whoever's, you know, go after Pierre or whoever's the the instigator of the attack. Right. Like

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Like make a fight on your terms about your behavior, about your about what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

They they have a tendency to let things lie and just hope things get better over time. Well, for the most part, they do. Then

Zain 21:53

Then to that being said, though, do you feel like your defense like do you feel like there's a reasonable defense here? like that they could have used as offense, that's what you would have liked them to do? Am I putting words in your mouth by saying some of the things you have said, you would have liked them to take to the offensive at some point, doesn't have to be now, but take it as an offensive.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

offensive. They certainly could have. I mean, they went, they gave Prime

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Minister Harper an order of Canada this

SPEAKER_00 22:21

a bunch of bridge building between all the

SPEAKER_00 22:25

the leaders in Canada. There was a tremendous amount of positive

SPEAKER_00 22:30

positive goodwill that was created. And

SPEAKER_00 22:33

And the Canadian media and the Canadian right wing have chosen to focus on a

SPEAKER_00 22:40

a prime minister singing Bohemian Rhapsody. These people's priorities are off. These people are off. There is no winning with them. Like, you may as well go and attack them.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Bring them down. Try and get them to look

SPEAKER_00 22:53

look like the petty, tiny

SPEAKER_00 22:54

tiny little people that they are. this

SPEAKER_00 22:56

is a petty and tiny little attack um that can be called out as such and the canadian people understand that the way to deal with bullies uh is to actually push back against the bully i don't think anybody really buys into this you

SPEAKER_00 23:12

in politics you don't get to tell um tell the teacher about the bully i'll tell you that politics you have to make sure that the bully is dealt with on your own terms same

Zain 23:20

same question cory jump in on this um should the pmo have done more more than validate and rectify a few minor details in this story?

Corey 23:29

I'm not sure they should have, because the challenge he has is it's not a one-off. This

Corey 23:34

This is part of a habit and kind of a longstanding tradition of Justin Trudeau having international gaffes at this point. And, you know, you can argue

Corey 23:43

many... Oh, come on, like his trip to India?

SPEAKER_00 23:46

No, this isn't a gaffe.

Corey 23:48

the Indian thing is

Corey 23:49

This is the problem. This is the problem. I

Zain 23:51

I think this might be saying the same thing, in a sense. sense go ahead corey yeah everything it gets looked

Corey 23:55

looked at through the lens of all of this past behavior and the way he's been acting and so people are sort of ready to say oh here he goes overseas again i mean imagine coming soon to you an ad from the conservative party of canada saying trudeau representing canada abroad and it's a picture of him in india you know in traditional garb and eu parliament calling him a dictator and footage of him not getting the un seat and a bunch of clips of him looking out of place at ga and then uk karaoke to top it all off and say Are we tired of winning yet, basically, right?

Corey 24:27

Canada's back in the world. You end it with Justin Trudeau talking about how Canada's back, right? And because

Corey 24:34

because it's now like a body of embarrassment, you've got a problem. So I think in some ways you're best to bury this and not have it be a story in two days. And I don't know. I mean, I am torn. In some ways I do agree with you that an offense might be called for here. I sure don't agree with you. You go after coin. but

Zain 24:52

yeah that's an interesting thing why not no no walk us through that like i want to move on but this is interesting quinn

Zain 24:58

quinn is like a neutral party here right he's not your political opponent

Zain 25:02

but why would you treat him as a political opponent carter this is interesting to me give us a justification here every

Zain 25:08

every once in a while

SPEAKER_00 25:09

while it does a good job it's a good thing to go into a fight with the media and

SPEAKER_00 25:12

and and i will emphasize the every once in a while because

SPEAKER_00 25:15

because if you don't go into the fight with the media they can just run they run rock shut on it

SPEAKER_00 25:20

and that's That's what they've been doing over the prime minister. They

SPEAKER_00 25:23

They run Russia over them. They don't need

SPEAKER_00 25:26

need anything except to make sure that they are banging

SPEAKER_00 25:30

banging their own particular drums, and I think that that's a mistake.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

I would go after – I'm not sure that this is the time.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Like I said that earlier, I'm not sure that this is the offense. But

SPEAKER_00 25:40

But going after Corrie for a bad column isn't necessarily a bad plan.

Zain 25:46

It's an interesting strategy. I don't know if you've sold either, Corey and I. I'm sure someone agrees with that. Most people

SPEAKER_00 25:53

They listen because of me.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

That's what all the surveys we do say, right? All the surveys. That's what they say.

Zain 26:02

Corey, can I start with you on this? I'm just powering into the second time. Power right past you, Carter. Hey, Corey.

Zain 26:10

Why didn't this just be pure authenticity moment for Trudeau? Why didn't this connect from the perspective? back because like yeah

Zain 26:20

it was like i'll reiterate it wasn't staged it wasn't it was you know he didn't he didn't even kind of like set it up in that sense it wasn't like his photographer filming him at like 8k right it was one of the things you're like this is a guy just having a good time like potentially related to the situation why i don't know why did

SPEAKER_00 26:36

did this penetrate like give us

Zain 26:37

us because there is a discussion here we talk about authenticity constantly this was a guy being authentic he didn't know was that authentic you

Zain 26:45

thought that authentic okay

Corey 26:47

okay laid on laid a lot okay laid on us like break it down break it down you you're you're i understand that you would say it's he didn't know he was filmed but just you know just because he didn't know his film does not mean it was authentic it was inauthentic in the room the way he was over enunciating things the kind of like breathless approach to the bohemian rhapsody lyrics there that wasn't particularly authentic he was still playing prime minister it was just for a smaller audience it It wasn't for an international audience. And I think that is part of it, right? That's a big part of it. It's not like you caught him in

Zain 27:18

in the shower singing

Zain 27:19

singing into a shampoo bottle.

Zain 27:22

That would imply that the version you saw there, you don't think that's like the real him

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Carter, jump in on this.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

That is him, Zane, which is why he can't be authentic because his authentic is inauthentic, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:36

right? Like he can't help but over-enunciate. can you

Corey 27:40

you stop trying to support my cases here carter okay

Zain 27:45

here's the he he he just carter is second chair to your defense it's like very much like it's like the it's like the articling student who just said he wanted to come along good

Zain 27:56

good stuff you guys are pissing me off today you're just creating several pills oh but i'll let you continue i think there's something what what you're saying though carter be

SPEAKER_00 28:05

because his the way he he the

SPEAKER_00 28:09

the way he thinks of his authentic self is

SPEAKER_00 28:11

is perceived by the rest of us as inauthentic the

SPEAKER_00 28:15

the overnight articulation like when we have all gone karaokeing and i think all of us have done it it is the drunken screaming into the microphone the

SPEAKER_00 28:25

the lyrics to mr brightside nobody does uh bohemian rhapsody

SPEAKER_00 28:35

so much anger today?

SPEAKER_00 28:36

today? There's so much anger on this phone. I can't handle the anger. But

SPEAKER_00 28:40

But this is, no

SPEAKER_00 28:41

no one sounds like that when they're just doing, you know, But

Zain 28:46

But you guys literally said, you guys literally said that is what someone sounds like when they're doing karaoke. So it's kind of surprising. It's what they look like. It's not what they

Corey 28:54

they sound like. The quality. The quality is what I'm going for. for make

Zain 28:58

make your keep making your point cory because you you were on to something too it may have been a different point to carter but i'll let you make it because i think there's something you guys are saying because you

Zain 29:07

you you're ultimately saying that what we see with the prime minister that there is no lane for authenticity am i putting words in your mouth by saying that no

Corey 29:15

are people i am sure in your life in all of our lives who yeah you know as a kid you would maybe say brought brought like a try hard energy right they're just like a little too in there and a little too enthusiastic yeah you're talking about me again yeah

Corey 29:39

but there's a little bit of that with the prime minister so you ask if i think that's the authentic him i

Corey 29:44

i don't know that it is i don't know who he is in his private moments uh and i hope that's not who he is in his private moments not because i think that's such because

Corey 29:53

because it doesn't look like the happiest

Zain 29:54

happiest thing to me somebody

Corey 29:55

somebody who's always trying

Corey 29:56

trying to be on for other people uh i don't

Corey 30:00

if i've ever caught the authentic justin trudeau moment or the moment that i sort of felt was the authentic justin trudeau moment but

Zain 30:06

but so my question to them is simply why why could what we not just saw in that in that clip right that's circulating and we heard why could that not be it like what What makes you so skeptical that that was the authentic Trudeau

Corey 30:18

Trudeau moment? Zane, I don't have a lot of firm ground to stand on here, and I'll go back to this is the idea that you read into this what you poured into it. And so if

Corey 30:27

have feelings about him, if you have views of him, this is the political Rorschach test, then you're going to pull out negative views or you're going to pull out positive views. But I do stand firm on the idea that you

Corey 30:38

you can't say it's authentic or not just because it was recorded, right, insurreputously.

Corey 30:42

insurreputously. he was still in a room with people

Zain 30:45

people and he was still acting i get it i get there so you know there still could have been an element of performance like you know he's all maybe i'm always on i get it carter

Zain 30:54

carter what what i'm trying to get at here though is is what does this particular video or this incident or the scandal whatever category people want to put it in on

Zain 31:04

their own what does this tell us about authenticity though like what is this either either underline or redefine from the political rules of authenticity we say it's the most fucking important thing voters say it's the most it's the most desired thing in any candidate it could it's the thing that could sway them the most persuade them from their political what does an incident like this kind of tell you about authenticity because this hadn't whether you agree with me or not that this was an authentic moment i think the raw ingredients in some ways were there um so carter what does this kind of tell us in the in the sense about our rules for for political authenticity?

SPEAKER_00 31:38

I think it tells us that, you

SPEAKER_00 31:40

you know, what we're looking for is a reflection of ourselves, not necessarily a reflection of what we think.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

You know, I think that the weakness of the Trudeau

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Trudeau moment is the Trudeau moment reflects what he thinks the prime minister should be, at least in my reading.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

And that isn't authentic. What

SPEAKER_00 31:58

What we're looking for is when we're finding that authenticity, when we're looking for it in in whatever

SPEAKER_00 32:06

form it comes i

SPEAKER_00 32:07

think we're looking for it to be more uh

SPEAKER_00 32:10

uh a reflection of what we're individually looking you know for in the prime minister of ourselves of of humanity not just the

SPEAKER_00 32:17

the individual that's there and i think that that's always been a problem for justin trudeau is it's not he's

SPEAKER_00 32:22

he's not seen it's

SPEAKER_00 32:26

it's it doesn't come across like

SPEAKER_00 32:29

you know, like it was us. It was really us. And I think that I can bring that back to where we had problems with Alison

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Redford's authenticity. During the election campaign, Alison Redford was seen as very authentic because of the brand that we built for her. And

SPEAKER_00 32:44

And it was a very true brand, right? But when she stepped away from that brand, it became very inauthentic. And I think the difference is with Justin Trudeau, he sculpted this brand for himself, and

SPEAKER_00 32:54

and he never seems to be able to step away from that brand.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

And that now reads as inauthentic, whereas when

SPEAKER_00 33:01

when we started off earlier in the political game with Justin Trudeau, it

SPEAKER_00 33:06

it was more authentic because, you

SPEAKER_00 33:09

you know, when we were just meeting him and Sophie

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Sophie and the kids,

SPEAKER_00 33:13

he looked like he was a real, you

SPEAKER_00 33:16

you know, like a real boy. And now

SPEAKER_00 33:17

now that we've gotten to know him a little bit, he comes across more as a fake boy,

SPEAKER_00 33:25

You don't like the boy? i'll

SPEAKER_00 33:26

i'll let you listen okay

Zain 33:29

can i comment on one

Zain 33:31

dan flashes here we go yeah

Zain 33:33

yeah carter brings up an interesting point like it

Zain 33:38

it's about texture in some ways like you're almost saying carter that this

Zain 33:41

this is a continuation of what we think about not necessarily a acceptable deviation like

Zain 33:49

like this is like this is this is not like it's almost like if the prime minister was singing this is what i'd expect him to look like i think that's really interesting versus like perhaps a deviation of a sort or a moment that kind of rubs

Zain 34:02

rubs up against this long established, well manicured political brand that has been created for

Zain 34:08

for him or by him in a sense.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Well, I mean, imagine if he was sitting down and writing poetry for the queen, you know, we wouldn't find that particularly authentic either. I mean, it just, you

SPEAKER_00 34:18

you know, what do we expect from him? What is the authenticity that we expect from him? And

SPEAKER_00 34:22

And I think at this point, It's really hard to articulate what

SPEAKER_00 34:25

what is authentic from this gentleman who has

SPEAKER_00 34:28

has been prime minister for now, you

SPEAKER_00 34:30

you know, not the longest time, but certainly long enough for most of us to get to know him on this superficial level. And that's the only level that we seem to be able to get to.

Zain 34:39

Corey, finish off with your thoughts on this around, like, what does this kind of tell us about the rules of authenticity? authenticity and then i want to round out about like based on your guys's analysis here like where authenticity kind of fits in for the pm going forward because he clearly wants to run again so so cory talk to me about this does this say anything about the rules of authenticity as we've discussed thus far in in politics yeah

Corey 35:01

yeah i think it says the rules are not as complicated as we make them out to be like i hear what steven's saying i hear what you're saying but let's think about about this on like a super basic level i

Corey 35:12

i you know i said this is not a moment in a vacuum compared to other international moments well think about it in context

Corey 35:18

context of other moments in the united kingdom i think a lot of why people feel the way they do is that if this was the authentic him it makes the rest of his trip inauthentic right all of those other times where he's been mourning and sad and then there he is hanging out and he's mourning in a very different way behind the scenes if you you want to be charitable and call it morning.

Corey 35:38

So when we talk about authenticity, why don't we start there? That he acted different on Friday afternoon than he did Friday evening than he did Saturday afternoon than he did Saturday evening. And

Corey 35:49

one of those things that requires consistency. You're not authentic if you're an authentically different person at the different time of day.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

That's good, Corey. Very proud of you for coming up with a good point, finally. It butts up against what you said, Carter.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Carter. It does butt up against what you you said no

Zain 36:04

no i mean it is exactly the opposite so

SPEAKER_00 36:07

i like that you're paying attention no

Zain 36:08

no it's good um no

SPEAKER_00 36:09

no i like i like him coming through with something that was vaguely you know understandable now 36 minutes in it's good we didn't do 40

Corey 36:16

40 though zane it's good we didn't oh

Zain 36:19

there's one more question

Corey 36:20

question there's one more question okay

SPEAKER_00 36:21

okay good hey carter

Zain 36:22

carter the pm wants to run again he more than likely wants to run against pure polyam again right yeah um does authenticity matter anymore like from a strict political sort of tool like if if we and maybe this is is just the three of us like maybe the commentary on this will be like we don't know the fuck you guys are talking about right like i thought this was authentic moment i think the pm's got a bone of authenticity i know you carter have for the longest time felt like that's not the case how important of a tool is that and how important is it for trudeau to have that at the ready if he wants to run again and do you think it's a major liability or is it already baked in that he doesn't have an authentic bone and people know what they're getting they know the product it doesn't matter what

Zain 37:00

what are you what are you kind of thinking right now in terms of trudeau and and this um if i can call it this dilemma of authenticity for him going forward from a strict electoral political prospects uh

SPEAKER_00 37:12

think in a world where trump is seen as authentic and and he really is seen as authentic i mean we see him as a as a crazed liar wannabe dictator but

SPEAKER_00 37:22

but he's seen by the people who support him as authentic and real and

SPEAKER_00 37:27

and i do think he is authentic and real in those moments where he is crazy i

SPEAKER_00 37:31

think that it matters a lot because he gets the most votes joe biden comes

SPEAKER_00 37:37

comes in and he's authentic you know joe joe is joe and and everybody sees and joe's been the same forever pierre

SPEAKER_00 37:43

pierre pauliev is a little different creature um i don't think that pierre pauliev comes across as particularly authentic either i don't think any of us um see ourselves in pierre pauliev um and i don't mean like that we agree with his policies or anything like that he just he's

SPEAKER_00 37:57

he's that weird kid in university that always wanted to be the prime minister and now he's one step away from being the prime minister and that scares the shit out of me those people i don't think should be in office and

SPEAKER_00 38:07

and i think that that reads

SPEAKER_00 38:08

reads as inauthentic and as a result i

SPEAKER_00 38:11

i think that trudeau is in a bit better spot but

SPEAKER_00 38:15

he still doesn't make me overly comfortable running again to

SPEAKER_00 38:19

to try and defeat uh pierre palier he makes me nervous

SPEAKER_00 38:23

nervous because i think that the population could very easily find pierre to

SPEAKER_00 38:27

to be more authentic than than the prime minister and then we have a problem with uh the outcome so

SPEAKER_00 38:34

so i don't think that he's necessarily uh

SPEAKER_00 38:37

uh yeah i think he's i think he's doing it in a problem because

SPEAKER_00 38:41

because the it's like inauthentic one versus inauthentic two who wins who can tell right now it's a battle of the robot how

Zain 38:48

how important is authenticity for the pm heading into another election if

Zain 38:52

if this is based on the analysis you guys have given me here and all of the underlying like assumption like this guy doesn't i mean what is authentic who is this guy like based on all that how important is this does

Corey 39:06

does having the best policy matter does having the most money matter does having the best candidates matter

Corey 39:11

does having good vote splits matter does get out the vote matter i mean it yes and it depends like Like, what are you competing on? You

Corey 39:17

You don't compete on everything all of the time. And

Corey 39:20

And the question becomes, do you need to win on authenticity against Pierre Poliev and against Jagmeet Singh? You know, in the field, it's not just Trudeau versus Pierre Poliev.

Corey 39:29

So this all comes back to strategy, right? What is the message that you are delivering? What is the brand that you are trying to sell? And I don't think that authenticity is going to be available to Justin Trudeau in this particular moment. And so I sure wouldn't bank on

Corey 39:43

just given what we know about Canadians in this context. And to be fair, for

Corey 39:47

for two elections, I don't think he's really had authenticity. So I think

Zain 39:52

think he would argue and his team would argue they may not need it.

Zain 39:54

Maybe that's what you're about to

Corey 39:55

But that's exactly what I'm going to say. You don't necessarily need it. If your strategy requires an authentic candidate, then authenticity matters a great deal. If your strategy doesn't, then

Corey 40:07

Right. And these are the questions that they're going to be grappling with over the next bit. as they look at both the brand of the prime minister and the brand of his major opponents and

Zain 40:15

and as you say cory good strategy begins with good analysis and i'm curious if the analysis you guys have given is in line with the one that the pmo and the liberal party has about their leader on his authenticity marker like i genuinely wonder if they're asking themselves and analyzing it being like if did they see what happened today and the extension of it the same as as we did because they could very well see it differently, Carter. Like, I could see a world where they read this thing very differently, being like, no, this is this guy. Like, he's in a T-shirt. He's singing a song. This is exactly who he is. This is more of what we need. We can win as authenticity being one of the, I'm going to throw it, five pillars of the next campaign, so to speak. Right? Like, there could be a piece of analysis internally that says, fuck it, authenticity is a winning marker for us. Well,

Corey 41:00

Well, can I just, before you throw it to Carter there, say

Corey 41:04

because it also doesn't matter if we all think he's authentic. It matters if the swing voters

Zain 41:08

voters that are open to him. Certain population, yeah.

Corey 41:10

Exactly. So both his hardcore supporters and his hardcore opponents, who gives a shit if they think he's authentic? But if a persuadable group in the middle believes he's authentic, then yeah, you can build a strategy around that. These

Corey 41:22

These things are multifaceted, and you've got to consider them from a bunch of different angles. So if the LPC is sitting on some stats that say, yeah, people in the 905 who are swing voters between conservative and liberal actually think this was an authentic moment for him, it

Corey 41:36

was a great day do i think that's what happened no

Zain 41:41

carter uh well let's finish this off i'm gonna let you uh i'm gonna let you have a quick uh speaker's corner uh to andrew coin laid on what i know he's a zero time listener of the pod what do you want to tell him go ahead

SPEAKER_00 41:50

uh andrew we love you we love it when you write about the podcast keep that up uh you know never get into a fight with someone who uh

SPEAKER_00 41:57

uh buys ink by the barrel and i think you're fantastic right about the strategist podcast but you were totally wrong today and

SPEAKER_00 42:05

that's so authentic of you carter

Zain 42:06

carter do you want

SPEAKER_00 42:07

want to actually comment on this before i but yeah do it do it do it and i'll move on

SPEAKER_00 42:13

leave me out of step with what the um with

SPEAKER_00 42:17

with what the the the liberals think of this because we've always been out of step with what the liberals are we we we we as a podcast have been been critical of their communication structure for

SPEAKER_00 42:29

for what since almost well really when we formed the podcast they they're winning ways in 2015 uh we're only because they listened to the podcast obviously um

SPEAKER_00 42:41

um the liberal strategy episode and

SPEAKER_00 42:45

we've been very critical for years about how they view communications and how they interact on communications and

SPEAKER_00 42:51

and i think that that's partly Partly because they surround themselves like so many political parties do. They surround themselves with people who only think one way.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

I think that it is a problem that that party particularly has is

SPEAKER_00 43:05

is surrounding themselves with people who think

SPEAKER_00 43:08

think that, you know, Justin Trudeau has never farted.

Zain 43:14

We're going to leave that segment. Great callback, though. Yeah.

Zain 43:18

mean, it was a weak callback to begin with. It was a weak.

Zain 43:22

It was good. Callbacks are important

SPEAKER_00 43:24

important in humor. We

Zain 43:26

We can't do the show without you, Carter. Let's move on to our next segment, our next segment, Olive Branches and Carrot Sticks. Corey, let's move to Alberta. Let's talk about the end game for Danielle Smith. I don't even know how many days she has left, but it's what, September 19th right now, October 6th is when they decide. Do either of you guys know when the mail-in ballots are due? It must be soon, right? It's soon.

Zain 43:47

Yeah, okay, next couple of weeks. Maybe, Corey, if you look that up, but I'll kind of give the context here while Corey does look that up. Carter, I want to talk about the Danielle Smith endgame strategy here. There's

SPEAKER_00 43:56

There's a few things

Zain 43:56

things that seem quite interesting. Number one, she seems to have gone a little bit quiet in the sense of a general campaign sense. But she, of course, did reannounce her $300 health spending account as a core policy piece. Her opponents have

Zain 44:11

have this weird sort of, oh, my God, she's going to win. you have to stop her from winning while simultaneously acknowledging that she's more than likely going to win. So there's that going on. And then I want to talk about this Don Braid article that, that just came out that Corey circulated to us. Corey, I believe this is from, from either today or yesterday. It's from today, which talks about Daniel Smith reaching out and throwing out all of branches to the UCP MLAs, to the caucus, knowing that she doesn't have the vast majority of endorsements. This article ultimately talking about how some people are saying, listen, Danielle Smith, sure, but we'll take Danielle Smith over Rachel Notley any day. This is UCP MLA is kind of paraphrasing, kind of starting to warm up to the prospects that she will be their leader and she will be the premier. So, Carter, I want to talk about in broad terms, give me the broad terms of what you make of the Danielle Smith endgame. As you see perhaps the convergence of a winning campaign, is this looking to you like an undeniable force? Or are you seeing some holes in the potential strategy in the campaign here that could make you question as a political observer and a strategist that this is not a done deal? Tell me that top line and then let's get into some of these things I've mentioned here.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

Well, I don't think it's a done deal in the way that it's been mentioned in the media before. You know, like there's been a couple of polls that were apparently put out by the Daniel Smith team. Daniel Smith's team put out their own polls and the media jumped on them like rabid dogs on food. It was it's just embarrassing. Anyways, the media were walking through. I think by media, I'm including Rick Bell in this. So it's very loose definition of media.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Rick Bell, you know, wrote the she'll

SPEAKER_00 45:58

she'll win on the fourth ballot or something like that. I've heard that a few times, but

SPEAKER_00 46:02

but I just walked through with Deirdre

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Deirdre Mitchell-McLean, who hosts the Alberta Women of Politics podcast. We

SPEAKER_00 46:11

We went through all the different scenarios. I think that it's not a fait accompli. I think that Travis

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Travis Taves could win, but

SPEAKER_00 46:19

but I think that the chances of him winning are so slim that

SPEAKER_00 46:23

that he just basically needs to thread a needle that is

SPEAKER_00 46:27

is just too skinny to get through.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

It's possible, but it's not probable.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

And therefore, the outreach that Danielle's doing, that's what we never got to do on the Alice Redford campaign.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

You've been prior to.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Yeah, it was so improbable that we could win. We never got to call the MLAs and say, you know, when we win, because we would have been laughed at. You know, it would have been comical for

SPEAKER_00 46:51

for us to do this. But Danielle

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Danielle gets the opportunity to do it, and it's great.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Absolutely great that she's taking that opportunity. are

Zain 46:59

you being sarcastic there because my question to you and i wanted to get this done late but you've got the you put it out there is this premature or is this strategic

SPEAKER_00 47:10

this is the time to be reaching out to everybody before it's known right when you reach out afterwards you're putting them into almost a place of duress like

SPEAKER_00 47:17

like by reaching out now and saying you know this

SPEAKER_00 47:20

this was a hard-fought battle but i've always had a ton of time and respect for you cory i

SPEAKER_00 47:25

i mean i know that doesn't sound authentic but you try and make it sound a a little bit more authentic than what i just did um

SPEAKER_00 47:32

that gives you a chance it gives you a chance to say you

SPEAKER_00 47:35

you know we're all on the same team here and

SPEAKER_00 47:39

whether i win or lose and that's what you really need to have at this point you need to have this whether i win or lose tone right the tone is i

SPEAKER_00 47:47

i don't know if i'm gonna win you don't know if i'm gonna win but

SPEAKER_00 47:51

but secretly we both know i'm gonna going to win and

SPEAKER_00 47:54

and so it gives you the ability to have that conversation um

SPEAKER_00 47:58

with less duress with more i've

SPEAKER_00 48:01

i've always i've always valued your opinion cory i i think that you know that was that one that one strong point you had uh 12 minutes ago that was really impressive so

Zain 48:10

so are you and i'm going to get to you in a second cory but i've got carter on this topic and i i do value carter's insights into this because i can see this playing out is this is this a strategy that kenny never ever did carter is this the picking up the phone i've got a list i'm going to call everyone sort of like you know direct you've got my cell phone number text me anytime sort of strategy is there

SPEAKER_00 48:30

there or is this different i

SPEAKER_00 48:31

think in all due respect i think that kenny brought everybody together at this stage of his leadership everyone was sorry i mean i mean when kenny

Zain 48:39

kenny didn't do this perhaps to save his leadership i should be clear when

SPEAKER_00 48:41

when he was falling apart i don't think that it was is capable i don't think that the pressures that were put on the

SPEAKER_00 48:47

the premier with covid i

SPEAKER_00 48:50

don't think he had that capacity to keep everybody together so

SPEAKER_00 48:53

so it wouldn't have mattered how many phone calls he made it wouldn't matter how much outreach he made and

SPEAKER_00 48:57

and and who knows maybe danielle smith find herself in

SPEAKER_00 49:00

in that position as premier at some point as well but

SPEAKER_00 49:05

the end game for uh these mlas is they need to make a choice do

SPEAKER_00 49:09

do they want to stay in government or do they not want to stay in government

SPEAKER_00 49:13

and cory i believe has said countless times one

SPEAKER_00 49:16

one day in government is better than a lifetime in opposition if

SPEAKER_00 49:19

if he didn't say it that way it's better the way i said it but it's it's you know it's it's kind of you know but

SPEAKER_00 49:25

but government is where you get shit done and i'm willing to bet that most of these guys will sell their soul to back up daniel it's

Zain 49:31

it's starting to seem like it by the article and i actually want to talk about the strategy of the article too but cory let's round up right back to the top where i started with carter done deal like does this seem like Like it's it's a done deal, like from what you saw from the tea leaves of her opponents standing up there being like, we

Zain 49:46

we have to stop her. But also when she becomes premier, we will not be supporting this like and also seeing articles like this. What do you what are you kind of sensing? What do you what are you kind of getting as a as a as a litmus test? Is this a done deal or is there room right now that you see that this could end differently? so

Corey 50:03

so we've long said the biggest indicator that daniel smith's got this is that all of her opponents think she's got this and they're acting in that fashion and we're seeing more of that as we get into the the closing arguments here you are

Zain 50:17

are seeing more of that

Corey 50:18

well of course this

Corey 50:19

great article is a great example of of that um where all of a sudden people who are supporting other candidates are starting to say yeah but you know i take her over rachel notley and we're all conservatives and and all of

Corey 50:30

and and the other thing i'll just say is um we don't necessarily know cause and effect here so it's pretty easy for us to look at it and cynically say oh look at them they're all scampering now to try to save their jobs and listen

Corey 50:43

listen frankly that's usually what happens that's usually what happens because they i we've said this so many times they find religion when all of a sudden it's their job or you know and or their principles and they get to pick one but not both right yeah all of a sudden they become good team players but we also know daniel smith is calling around and reaching out to people and if she's calling around and reaching out to people and saying you've got a place on this team i know we've had our you know our differences but we're all still conservatives and i think we can agree we don't want rachel notley to be uh premier well who

Corey 51:18

who are we to say that's not actually the cause that leads to the effect of them saying actually maybe i can hang

Corey 51:23

hang with daniel smith on this particular campaign so you you got to give her credit and we've talked about her kind of interpersonal style and, and the warmness of it many times on this pod. And this is where those kinds of things matter. Big time.

Corey 51:38

Her calling around her texting to people, her saying, let's talk, let's connect. I, you know what? I still consider you a friend. I know we've had our differences, but being the person in the position of authority who can also be the bigger person and say, it's

Corey 51:52

it's water under the bridge for me, water

Corey 51:54

water over the dam, it's water under the bridge don't worry about it um that's

Corey 51:59

that's really powerful that's really powerful at moments like this carter

Zain 52:02

carter i know you want to jump in but can i can i throw one wrinkle for you guys to both consider there

Zain 52:07

there is an element of the magnanimous leader right like it looks like i'm gonna win everyone thinks i'm gonna win there's a spot for you like you know she can spend capital right like you we ask ourselves often why do more leaders not do this right like just do the a warm embrace like we're gonna run through the finish line together sort of thing expand the energy i get all that but carter i'll let you jump in with your point but also consider this she needs something from them doesn't she around the sovereignty act like this is something where she actually needs something from them it's not just like hey like let's be part of the team like you know i'm not gonna rock the boat too much it's more like hey be part of the team by the way i'm still gonna do my fucking thing that i promised i that you're railing against i'm gonna do that so how does that change the dynamic in terms of her her sort of like let's all come on board sort of strategy as well carter jump in forget

SPEAKER_00 52:58

the sovereignty act this is this is much bigger than the sovereignty sure

SPEAKER_00 53:02

sure she could lose her caucus over the sovereignty act but she could lose her caucus at any point you

SPEAKER_00 53:07

you know i the point i was going to make is the three of us have met danielle quite a few times the three of us like danielle um

SPEAKER_00 53:13

um we think that her policy positions are nuts But

SPEAKER_00 53:16

the fact that we like her is a huge step forward right off the bat. And I think that most people who talk to her are

SPEAKER_00 53:22

are going to think, hey, she's lovely.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

We're going to we're going to you know, I can I think I can talk some sense into her.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Doesn't matter. The Sovereignty Act doesn't matter. The policy positions don't matter. What matters at this point is, do I think I have an audience with Danielle Smith and will she listen? Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

Right. And that's, you know, Brian

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Brian Mulroney didn't listen to every one of his MPs when he was the prime minister. But

SPEAKER_00 53:49

But he made it he made it feel to each one of his MPs that they had an audience in the prime minister.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

And that is fundamentally different, especially when he was in his first term.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

When he started to lose the Bloc Quebec law and things like that, it started to fall apart relatively quickly. But that's government. i

SPEAKER_00 54:09

honestly believe that danielle smith if she's smart and i do think that she's smart she will have everybody thinking that they have a direct pipeline to her they

SPEAKER_00 54:17

they won't have to go through her chief of staff they'll be able to talk to her directly and everyone will believe it because

SPEAKER_00 54:24

because danielle smith tying it all together is

SPEAKER_00 54:26

is an authentic person that people like and

SPEAKER_00 54:29

and and that matters a tremendous amount with a smaller caucus cory

Zain 54:33

cory is she offering shit like cabinet

Corey 54:37

um i don't think that would be wise you

Corey 54:40

you don't think that would be wise carter would you think that'd be wise neither of you do tell me why yeah

SPEAKER_00 54:45

well because for a bunch of reasons some

Corey 54:46

some of them are technical and some of them are more conceptual here one is she doesn't have the job yet she doesn't know what she's going to have to trade away to get it so if she starts spending chips now that that could be foolish she might need those chips down the road because there is still

Corey 55:01

the reality that well let's just paint a super simple scenario for you here uh

Corey 55:07

she needs to get travis taves to stay in order to keep half of

Zain 55:11

of the caucus on

Corey 55:11

on board but she's already offered finance minister to someone else well that's a fucking problem don't you think uh and that limits your range of motion the other is if they are not currently in cabinet and they are talented individuals of the ucp caucus there

Corey 55:25

there might be good reasons for that there might have been something that occurred during the vetting process where people said oh you know what a bunch

Corey 55:33

bunch of undisclosed challenges here with uh and i'm not saying any of these actually exist just to be clear i i know nothing of such vetting but maybe there has been a bankruptcy uh that's that's not been cleared yet that would be really embarrassing for the party or or maybe this is a situation where um you know there's some some allegations made and you know they're not of such a like a concrete or extreme nature that you would kick somebody from caucus, but you're sure going to think twice about putting them in the cabinet. You have no access to that information at this point. There's a reason why you let the cabinet process play

Zain 56:05

play through like a series of betting conversations. You're

Zain 56:08

not in that role right now.

Corey 56:09

now. I'm sure you've got a transition team. I'm sure you're thinking about these things, but you do not have the information you need both from a how is this all going to play out and what do people already know or not know about the personalities in question to make these decisions basically the only one you could kind of safely say is if they're already in cabinet from like that technical point of view but even that very risky and also you're making a blank check because if they say something in the next five days and it's open to interpretation whether it should be disqualifying or not what

Corey 56:40

what are you going to do you're either going to pull it away and piss them off or you're you're not and it's much better to keep them on a leash by them thinking how i act in the next three weeks is going to determine whether danielle smith puts me into cabinet barter

Zain 56:53

barter talk to me about these conversations right you're you're you're you

Zain 56:57

know despite the fact that we make a lot of fun of on about about

Zain 57:01

about you on the show you're very good at this messaging sort of thing especially the interpersonal side of thing i suspect you've had to make these calls or advice a candidate to make these calls perhaps redford afterwards right after you guys won and had to do a lot of bridge building what would the content of these calls look like i've got a few things you guys have both put on there right around like unity the team like like, you know, the interpersonal dynamic. What else would be a substantive, like, let's build this together. I'm kind of curious, like, what one of these calls looks like to charm offensive, someone that there might be deep disagreement with, but you also, they know that you need them as much as this is about the magnanimous sort of like, you know, leader who wants us to all hold hands and cross the finish line together. Carter, tell me about what sort of messaging elements need to go into a phone call, into a note, into all these communications. communications.

SPEAKER_00 57:51

Zane, I am so happy that you were able to take my call today. I've been looking forward to reaching out to you. I know my schedule has been exceptionally busy over this leadership campaign. I'm sure yours has been as well. We haven't spent as much time together as I would like, but my team, especially

SPEAKER_00 58:07

especially Bob, Bob thinks that you are outstanding. He says that the time that you two worked together on that file about the thing, that

SPEAKER_00 58:15

that stuff was some of the best stuff that It was delivered in the last government, and he said that, and it was because of you.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

And I just wanted you to know that, first of all, my team thinks you're great.

SPEAKER_00 58:26

They're talking you up. They want us to be able to get together afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

And I'm not going to ask you to do anything like betray your loyalty to

SPEAKER_00 58:39

I understand that you made that choice. I respect that choice. It was vital that we had a competitive leadership. leadership i'm

SPEAKER_00 58:45

i'm looking forward to the to october the 7th

SPEAKER_00 58:48

regardless of the outcome i just wanted you to know that

SPEAKER_00 58:51

that you're going to play i'm sure you're going to play a big part in

SPEAKER_00 58:54

the next government because you um

SPEAKER_00 58:56

um you're a star zane and um

SPEAKER_00 58:59

um i know we're not working together yet but i look forward to the day that we do really

Zain 59:05

really good no notes notes

Zain 59:09

was about me so no

Zain 59:11

he could have mentioned

Corey 59:11

mentioned a bit of my there were so many good subtle things steven did there that i'm just gonna pull

Zain 59:17

it a bit yeah

Corey 59:17

yeah okay i wish i'd taken notes on what he went on here and i would have done and

Zain 59:21

no notes because that's typical

Corey 59:25

but let's work in the back from back where it wasn't no it was basically no matter what government comes i know you're going to do great things it was a great

Zain 59:32

which you guys both mentioned

Zain 59:33

right like that hypothetical not

Corey 59:34

not guarantee that that's going to happen talking

Corey 59:37

talking about uh the the wonderful things that they've done reminding them that they've got a great future telling them i'm not asking you to betray where you are right now emphasizing that you think that a spirited debate and maybe even taking some strong lines against somebody was part of

Corey 59:51

of the process and that that was an important process so you're basically validating their past actions and giving like it's no longer yeah you stood up against me it's yeah you stood up and had a spirited debate for this party and i i love that about you like i'm open to

Corey 1:00:05

yeah a really good way that you frame those things out uh talk about how you haven't had the time to talk to them to this point yet because you've been so busy then you tip to them and say just as i know you've been so busy so you're not acting as though you're the only person who's got something going on great

Corey 1:00:19

great a lot of small things steven did in that there could be like a one hour episode just on that riff that steven did because

Zain 1:00:26

because also like and

Corey 1:00:28

this many communications best practice the

Zain 1:00:29

the the reflexive credibility of mentioning a mutual contact who's on their team to kind of show that bob Bob was now with me and, but like, well,

Corey 1:00:37

well, that's what made it seem much more sincere. Thank you, Zane. Because if it's somebody that you don't have a ton of contact with having the call, it's like, I just think you're great. They're like, well, how the fuck do you know that I'm great? You know, this sounds shallow. This sounds fake. But by pointing to somebody who actually would know about the quality of work going on, that makes it seem more sincere, really strong across the board.

Corey 1:00:59

Well, I would hire Steve. I would, I mean, I would not hire Steven. Stephen, I would talk about.

Zain 1:01:06

Yeah, no, we know that. Carter,

Zain 1:01:08

Carter, here's the thing, though. Talk to me about, so the final thing I want to talk about before I talk about this is just the strategy of this article. Because this article was printed and now some of this stuff

Zain 1:01:18

public, right? We know that this process is happening in some way, shape, or form.

Zain 1:01:22

Risk about this strategy of this strategy. I mentioned premature. You knocked that down saying, no, now's the time because you can talk about it hypotheticals. talk to me about risk here there has to be a cost there

Zain 1:01:35

has to be a risk there has to be something if she's doing this she's not doing that if she's leaning into this she's not talk

Zain 1:01:42

talk to me about risk here what risk would you bring up if danielle was your candidate and this was your campaign uh

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

uh we could lose um but i don't think that that's the real risk for danielle normally what you'd be doing is i'd be saying you don't make these calls until we're done our go tv I don't

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

don't think that Danielle needs to worry about that so much. I think that Danielle is in a place where the numbers have told us a clear story that she's in, she's in the driver's seat. So

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

So just focus on her being in the driver's seat. And I see this more as an upside rather than a risk.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

This is her signaling to the entire team and to the entire field.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

I know I'm going to win.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

You know, I'm going to win. I'm talking to your team.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

You better start being nice to me. you

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

you know like this

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

is pretty good messaging uh across the board i'm i'm i'm

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

i'm impressed by it i think that it shows confidence and uh it shows decisiveness um

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

danielle is a formidable appoint opponent and anybody who thinks that just

SPEAKER_00 1:02:46

just because she's got some crazy ideas she's not going to be electable um

SPEAKER_00 1:02:50

there's a lot of people who had crazy ideas is that they were elected and

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

and then just walked away from their crazy ideas i'm not saying that danielle's one of those people who will walk away from their crazy ideas but it's

SPEAKER_00 1:03:01

it's it's easier to see um her walking away from crazy ideas than it is to see her losing right now

Zain 1:03:07

go ahead talk to me about risk do you see any carter says minimal doesn't really see anything uh presenting itself so to speak yourself uh

Corey 1:03:14

uh i would go a little bit for actually you know what i want to say this off the bat we're all talking as though this is a fait accompli it might be i don't know like Like I said, there are reasons to believe that she's in the pole position here. There was that pole, for

Corey 1:03:28

for example, that suggested that of members that she had a really strong grip on it. And it would be tough. You know, it

Corey 1:03:34

it would be like a rich person getting past the gates of heaven, you know, for Charles Saves to win.

Corey 1:03:39

But let's talk about the

Corey 1:03:43

the thing that's tied

Corey 1:03:45

tied into this, but not. You talk about risk. her pivot

Corey 1:03:49

pivot from i am campaigning and i am actively talking about my policies to i'm going quiet and having these conversations behind the scene i think is fundamentally a smart one for two reasons one uh we have a situation where i

Corey 1:04:05

think that the light hurts her the more we're talking about her uh alberta sovereignty act i think the worse is it it is for her because there's not a lot that that makes you think it's constitutional or good for the economy or like any critical analysis of it is going to be damaging i think for her so um i am going to sort of revise what i thought about something she did a couple of weeks ago when she dropped her alberta sovereignty act and i said well she had to thread the needle or else she's going to piss everybody off uh

Corey 1:04:33

uh on one side or the other and then i said i don't think she threaded the needle i

Corey 1:04:36

i still don't think she threaded the needle but i also no longer think that was the point by putting it out there's nothing else you You can demand of her, right? It's ended the calls for, well, Danielle, where's the Alberta Sovereignty Act? Where's the Alberta Sovereignty Act? Where's the Alberta Sovereignty Act? She's provided enough of the details as to what it will be, even if it's a wild piece of policy that is potentially unconstitutional.

Corey 1:04:57

When she's making these phone calls that we've just been talking about, you don't have to deal with, well, Danielle, but I need to see what's in the Alberta Sovereignty Act.

Corey 1:05:06

she's released it. So she took it off the table. even if she took it off the table uh by shattering it on the floor and we're all gonna you know have our hand you know feet bleed as we walk over it for the next year that's

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

oh my analogies are a problem my

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

my analogies are a problem our

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

our feet bleed for the year okay hey uh

Corey 1:05:29

very she is she is essentially concluded

Corey 1:05:32

concluded she has wrapped her campaign she is saying i'm no longer talking about these these things and she's starting to work the channels i'll be curious to see if she jumps back into the fray in the next two weeks but

Corey 1:05:42

but if i were her i'm

SPEAKER_00 1:05:44

i'm not sure i would i

SPEAKER_00 1:05:46

i wouldn't she's in a great spot worker gotv be

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

be on loop there's no there's

Zain 1:05:52

there's no closing argument she needs to make publicly no

Zain 1:05:55

no she's done she won i

SPEAKER_00 1:05:57

there's a real strength to being the person who can just say yeah

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

yeah i'm done we're

Zain 1:06:03

we're gonna leave that segment there move it on to our final segment are over under in our lightning round steven carter are you in or are you out we do this for you of course just want to make sure people know we still still do it for you yeah perfect are you out on this uh braid article which i suspect we don't know i'm speculating suspecting speculating what is at least partially engineered by the smith campaign to say listen olive branches are being olive carrot sticks are being carroted that people are are you know coming on board that that they're saying things like Danielle Smith is better than Rachel Notley and I'm a conservative. What do you think of this strategy, kind of taking these calls, taking this process public? Are you in or are you out on that strategy and why?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:44

I just loved it. I think that it makes it all public.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:48

It shows her strength. It shows her being magnanimous. I

SPEAKER_00 1:06:53

I love it. I think it's a great strategy. And I think that, you

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

you know, Braid can't help but bite on it. It was really well played.

Zain 1:07:02

Corey, are you in or out on the strategy to kind of take this process, which we suspect it might be happening in some degree, now kind of taking it public, having validator quotes of UCP MLAs and all that sort of stuff? What

Corey 1:07:14

What do you think of it? Are you in or out? Oh, I'm in because not only did it signal that she has made this pivot and that she's trying to be magnanimous, but it's created a roadmap for other MLAs now who might want to walk this same path. You know, there are quotes saying, well, we

Corey 1:07:30

we all agree better this than Rachel Notley. Right. So there's a line there. It also signals, hey, she's calling around. And maybe if she hasn't gotten to you yet, maybe if you've dodged her call, now you've got a better sense about what that calls about. And the sense that, you know, she's trying to bring everybody together. And there's a lot of value in that.

Corey 1:07:48

Sometimes we signal to the people around us in politics through the media. that's

Corey 1:07:53

that's just a reality and this was exceptional signaling to the ucp caucus interesting

Zain 1:07:59

interesting point cory overrated underrated the political damage for justin trudeau on his uh queen bohemian rhapsody totally inauthentic slightly performative moment in london overrated

Corey 1:08:16

overrated i um i started by saying i'm I'm of two minds of this, and one of my minds is, I don't care.

Corey 1:08:24

ultimately, that's where I end

Zain 1:08:25

But you spent 40 minutes with me on it, so thank you for doing that, Carter. Overrated or underrated, the political damage for Justin Trudeau on this. You thought it was a non-scandal, but political damage and non-scandals do sometimes, you know, have a relationship. You don't think it's

Zain 1:08:39

scandal, but sometimes it could keep chipping away.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:42

No, it's not going to be a thing that lasts very long. We'll forget about it in three days. Oh, now it will. will

SPEAKER_00 1:08:49

when he farts in public that's gonna be a see it

SPEAKER_00 1:08:53

it was the third time they made it funny right

SPEAKER_00 1:08:56

right there not funny

Zain 1:09:04

funny not funny uh carter man it's been it's been just over two weeks since pierre polyev has taken over the conservative party of canada are you in or are you out on what What you're seeing from Pierre in the first couple of weeks, there's some notable moments around some sharp elbows with the with the media going after the prime minister. But are you in or out from from tone, cadence, strategy, messaging, positioning, all the sort of stuff you're generally seeing? And I understand that the death of the queen in the 10 days of mourning kind of took over a lot of that. But there's perhaps enough to maybe make a judgment. Your objective, Stephen Carter, judgment on Pierre Polyev and what you're seeing. are you in or are you out um

SPEAKER_00 1:09:44

um i remain out um i think he's still he still appears to be juvenile to me and

SPEAKER_00 1:09:50

and that juvenile nature is tough for me to get around whether

SPEAKER_00 1:09:54

whether it's um him going after aiken uh

SPEAKER_00 1:09:57

uh just for trying to get a question in or uh

SPEAKER_00 1:10:00

uh any of the other million things that he does that just annoy the hell out in

Zain 1:10:05

in or out about two weeks in just a little bit more than two weeks in of the the pure Polyev reign of the Conservative Party of Canada. From everything you've seen, objectively as possible, strategist hat on, are you in or are you out from everything you've seen from him?

Corey 1:10:17

I'm sorry, was Stephen Carter the man of the 40-minute running fart joke just talking about how juvenile Polyev was?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

was probably the third time. It was the third time he made it work.

Corey 1:10:30

You know what? It's way too soon to call the game on this. He's had a choppy start to it, but he still has a lot of the fundamentals that made us think that he'll ultimately cause a lot of trouble for Pierre Polyev. And we did see that Abacus poll today that had the Conservatives up by five.

Corey 1:10:46

I'm sure not out, but

Corey 1:10:49

I'm not exactly in yet either.

Corey 1:10:52

Corey, is Daniel Smith our next Premier?

Zain 1:10:57

probably, but not certainly.

Zain 1:11:00

Carter, before I ask you, Corey, do you have anything to maybe preempt Carter jumping into his his same answer one might even call it a prediction is there anything to help us preempt that a bit before Stephen Carter goes

Corey 1:11:17

the soundboard stopped working so well

Zain 1:11:20

well fuck it Carter is Daniel

Corey 1:11:21

Smith our next premier 100

SPEAKER_00 1:11:23

100% yes she is going to be our next premier

Zain 1:11:28

looking forward to Travis Taves thanks Carter we're going to leave it there that's a wrap on episode 1003 of the strategist My name is Zane Veldry with me as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan, and we'll see you next time.

Transcript